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Subscribe to RSSIn the Supreme Court of Canada on Thursday, judges and lawyers debated court rules governing a rape case in which the alleged victim seeks to testify while wearing a religious head covering — a niqab — which obscures her entire face, except for her eyes, the Toronto Globe and Mail reported.
The case is a sensitive one — weighing religious freedoms in Canada with the concern for the right to a fair trial — at a time when the religious and racial makeup of the country is rapidly changing.
The woman, who is being identified only as N.S., is a Muslim who accuses two men of raping her when she was a child, the Globe said.
A defense attorney representing one of the accused men pressed for N.S. to testify uncovered, arguing that the face of the witness offers critical clues to a lawyer doing cross-examination, according to the report.
He argued that the veil impinges on a provision in Canada’s Charter of Rights that ensures the right of a defendant to face his accuser.
The prosecuting attorney, who asserts that his client should be able to testify in niqab, faced a barrage of questions from the judges.
The prosecutor argued that interpreting a witness’s demeanor in court is notoriously unreliable, according to the Globe. In addition, he said that rape victims sometimes find their manner is used against them to suggest the rape was in fact consensual sex.
The Muslim civil rights group the Canadian Council on American Islamic Relations portrayed the case as one that will decide whether Muslim women -- at least the minority that wear headcoverings--will have equal access to Canada's justice system.
CAIR filed an amicus brief emphasizing the part of Canada's Charter that guarantees "the right to integrate" into Canada's mainstream in spite of differences in ethnic, religious or cultural differences.
"The choice the appellant faces is between walking away from her religious convictions as a person of faith, and walking away from the pursuit of justice as a victim of an alleged sexual assault," CAIR said.
The Toronto Globe and Mail, with Kari Huus, msnbc.com.
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How many Muslims are in Canada now? Geesh. The article said the religious and racial makeup of Canada is rapidly changing. Immigration=takeover. While I might understand if the article said she felt safer covered (then again wouldn't all women) but it didn't. It probably would make reading her hard. Plus who knows who's under there. Another country must change to fit them. By the way, how many women get a fair trial in Arab countries?!
As of 2009, about 650,000, which amounts to 2% of the total population. Yes, the Muslims are taking over.
Courts and other public institutions do commonly accommodate the religious requirements of minority citizens. It is not such a big deal.
...and how women are treated in Arab countries has no weight in how they should be treated in the U.S. or Canada.
Responding as an average American...I say...Nuke Canada!
SHE'S not on trial dumbass. The men who raped her as a child are.
Thtruth, so she wants to use the system, but not be a part of the system either? I 100% believe in freedom to immigrate, BUT when you immigrate, it is because you are not happy at home. That means, adopt the ways of the new land or get the hell out.
You have the right to complain about being raped as a child, and they also have the right to face their accuser. If her religious beliefs are so great, then she should pray that Allah gives her justice and not the State.
I am so tired of having to bend for those that will not. I say that it is time to tell people to adapt or send them home, and by send, I mean a one way ticket. Let them make their own countries better and quit trying to make ours a POS country like they left.
If she wants her religious beliefs to be honored by the courts then she must know that her testimony only counts for half of that of a man.
Why does that matter? People immigrate to other countries for a reason. Would you force a nun to remove her Habit because it might prejudice the jury against the accused?
Your argument
So??? And your point???? She is the victim, not the person on trial.
TamL - At this point, she is the accuser. There is a difference.
The accused, the jury, and even the judge have every right to see this gal as more than layers of material. There would be no value in testifying if one could simply phone it in or yell it from the next room. 'Reading' the people testifying involves more than hearing them speak. Wouldn't you want to look your accuser in the face? If you were sitting on a jury, wouldn't you want to see the faces and look into the eyes of all involved?
I suspect it's because she's a woman, and they are trying to intimidate her. I mean, the poor woman was allegedly assaulted by this man, violated, humiliated - and now you want to take her faith away AND how she covers herself. I mean, these are her clothes, they help define who she is -- what's really going on is that this defense attorney wants to bully her into giving up the case so his client wins, and he sees the way to do it.
How do you know that she was even touched by these men at all? That's what gets to me when it comes to these rape accusations, they're just that, accusations! But, as long as it's a woman accusing a man, then it has to be true, huh? Yeah right! Too many women use the "He raped me" excuse when they want to get back at men for something trivial. It's become engraved into the female mind by the feminists, that if you want to really take a man down, then just scream "RAPE"! I say make her testify without her face covered and I bet she reveals her little lying and deceitful heart.
You know, I don't care about being PC or cultural correctness. If you want to live in the West, leave your backwards, repressive, sexist cultural baggage at home or leave. Islam is an invasive evil like Kudzu vine. With their high birthrate, all you "progressive" and caring Canadians will lose your country by the year 2100. You are already finished, just haven't died off yet. It is important to look at cultural clashes with a wide angle view over a period of decades. Smart "European" families are just having 2 kids, right? Most Canadian women are modern and liberated, educated. 12th century, tribal, macho Invaders have an average approaching 6 or more live births, women have few or zero rights and they are anti educating girl children or having women participate in any life outside the home. Get the picture? It's not just about this one poor women. it is the hordes she represents. Canada is toast and soon these same lame attitudes will destroy the US without firing a shot. We are doomed, thanks to "cultural sensitivity" and "Progressive," collectivist, Marxist thinking. Thanks for nothing.
Uncle Marsh
Well said. If these immigrants do not like Canadian rules, then they should insist on going back to their country of origin immediately. When they filled in their immigration papers they carefully did not state that they would demand special treatment once admitted.
Many Canadians regard the niqab with abhorence (a symbol of male dominance and oppression), a simple headscarf should be sufficient for modesty. I for one shudder when a female masked and draped from head to foot in some loose, coase woven, dark brown sack drifts past me in public. I do not say that they should wear mini-skirts, push-up bras, and thong underwear in court either.
That said, perhaps they want their assailants to face beheading or stoning to death. Strangely, if found guilty, that seems so appropriate for rapists.
Brant, rape has the same rate of false accusations as any other crime. To claim that screaming "rape" is just a tool to get revenge is disgusting. Consider what the victim of a rape goes through before making your claim.
Bryant - I'm torn between calling you a scathing stream of expletives and gently explaining how buffoonish your post reads.
I think I'll leave it at that.
The defense attorney is doing his job for his client.
Wouldn't want religion in the court system. Don't want it in the government, schools or at my door.
I'm sure Muslim women probably never commit crimes. However, a thought: What if a Muslim woman were a defendant? Would she still be allowed to have her face covered if she were the one being accused of a crime? What if there was a line up, would she be allowed to cover her face? "Mrs. Jones, in front of you are 5 women of similar build. Which is the one that committed the crime against you? No, I'm sorry, we're not allowed to show you their faces."
dman, if what happens in an Arab country in court should carry no weight here then why should the veil covering? The point here (which I thought was Obvious) is that Canada is willing to give her her day in court and a fair trial, something she wouldn't get in those countries, and she squabbles about this! And don't you think most women would want to hide themselves when facing their alleged rapists, but can't. As for your sarcasm about in 2009 the Arab population in Canada was 2%, didn't you read the article that said "at a time when the religious and racial makeup of the country is rapidly changing"?! However, if you're of Arab desent I suspect you have your own agenda.
Sorry, legal rights always trump religious rights. A person has a right to face their accuser. There is nothing to debate.
How is he not facing his accuser? She would still be there. Forcing her to remove her veil would be nearly the same as forcing you to go to trial buck naked.
No way. If she wants the perps brought to justice, they have every right, as does the court, to know and see who is making the accusations. Can you imagine the fallout and future ramifications from this if she is permitted to remain veiled???
The sooner Canada realizes that it is nothing to do with religion the sooner everyone can live in harmony. This is a culture head dress not religion. If I want to wear a balaclava everywhere I go and claim religion is that ok?
john-2617130
I could not disagree with you more. Unless the balaclava has a see-through panel where your Federal Identification Number has been tattooed to your forehead, religious coverings are not a right, but an easily abused privilege.
It is called "face" your accuser for a reason. So easy to say it happened if you can hide.
If it is true it is terrible, but we cannot disband equal justice.
I hear all these cries for separation of religion and state, be it so, face up.
About 2.7% of Canadians are Islamic, including both non-practicing and converts - Middle Eastern, Asian, African and Caucasian. The issue is in the forefront of many people's minds because there is a major "honour killing" trial going on right now. (The Shafia killings - three beautiful young Afghan sisters and a wife, allegedly murdered by the father, oldest son and second wife.) This is an interesting case. It is a first and, because of this, will set policy. If convicted, and this seems to be a done deal, they will probably never see the light of day.
You can Google for more info, or wait for the books and movies. Many in Canada are watching the story unfold with baited breath. (Canadian law prohibits the details of crimes being published before the case comes to court.)
Drop the veil, or drop the charges, your choice honey.
Don't expect western justice systems to abide by your silly religion if you want salvation from the courts.
You mean like how it's bending over backwards to abide the silly religion known as christianity?
Alverant, are you talking about he silly Chirstians that belive that all people are created equal?
Except for the natives, slaves and homosexuals ... oh and females.
clatz, I would have to say that today's freedoms are ONLY able to happen BECAUSE the Christians pushed for the values that they learned about by reading the words of Jesus.
You may have heard of a few of them...people like Martin Luther King? A preacher? His followers? All the other Christians that pushed for freedom? Ever heard of them?
Christians pushed for the values of freedom against who? Other Christians!
If it was obvious the Bible promoted freedom for all, don't you think it would have taken less the 1500 years to get where we are today?
Additionally why are there still Christian bigots today fighting equal rights for members of the LGBT community?
Religion has fought social change every step of the way. The reality is that freedoms have expanded DESPITE religion not because of it.
clatz, as a population becomes more educated and wealthy, they can look down the street and see injustice. I believe it is the religious teachings of Jesus that made people aware that they could not or should not keep quiet when confronted with oppression. So called religious leaders were "educated" and the masses were not, so they went along with all the BS they were told. Now we all have the ability to read and decide for ourselves if the Preacher is full of sh!t or not, so yes it was Christians that pushed ignorant so called Christians to follow the law of the land, "made by Christians" and if they couldn't follow the law, at least follow the words of Jesus. Eventually, we will become a better society because of our religious values.
The problem with Islam is that the "true followers" of Islam ARE doing what the Koran says to do and that is make war on non believers and ignorant people should become aware that there is a difference in religions and the result religion has on society.
MOSinEUR,
As opposed to the poor and uneducated? Are you saying poor people are not aware of injustice?
You know the golden rule predates Christianity don't you? There have been uprisings wherever there is oppression! Ever heard of Gandhi?
Er ... so the leaders of Christianity didn't teach the correct version of Christianity and so now everyone does follow the correct version because you can read? Why do you have to be able to read the Bible to determine what is BS or not (as you put it)? How do you know your interpretation is the right one? What's stop you interpreting the need to burn heathens at the stake once again?
That sounds no different to something the Taliban would say. Religion has had it's time to run the show in the western world, and after much effort it was thrown out.
clatz, us Christian women are doing just fine, and don't need you to defend us.
unbelievable,
I'm not defending you, I am pointing out that people have not been treated as equal by Christianity historically and they certainly are not today.
You may be happy enough with that, fortunatately though many of us are not.
Do they not allow children to testify behind blinds for stress reasons? I'd think the same would go for rape cases.
Children are children. Grow adults have to deal with the stress or just not complain to begin with. To a victim, it really is a mater of which evil they have to face. Let the bastards get away and live with it, or stand up and fight back. Her choice.
Of course if she was living in a Moslem Country that has Sharia Law, she would need two other women witnesses, as well as run the risk of being stoned as a whore. I mean, what did she do to lure them into temptation?
Yeah, she wants Western Justice, BUT doesn't want to live by Western Laws. Typical Islamic BS.
I wasn't going to post on this story because I don't have an opinion on the veil but reading the above posts just made me see red
Mosineur ... have you ever been raped ? I have! Standing up in court telling total strangers how a man ( MEN as in this case ) forced his penis into you ,in fact by the time the defense lawyers are done you feel raped again. I don't care if you are 5 , 15 , or 35 years old . I hope the that women in your life are never placed in this woman's shoes !!!
mespom, I have not been raped, and I do feel for you and other victims, BUT DID YOU PROVE your rape? Did the SOB go to jail? Were you vindicated? Yeah, seeking justice is hard. Making the choice to fight back when it happened or in court take courage, no question, but we do what we have to do in order to defend ourselves and protect others.
I am sorry for your pain, but I hope justice was serverd. I trust you would have taken of your veil in order to put the POS in jail.
mespomom, my sympathies to you not only for the hideous rapes that were forced upon you by monsters but also for what you had to endure in the courts. Crimes committed directly against people (rape, robbery, assaults as opposed to white collar crime) are the worst and unfortunately for the victims, male or female, the ugly details are dissected like a biology lab exercise and laid out for the entire world. Honestly, I don't know what we can do as a society to protect victims from a "second assault" like what you went through especially since there are so many unscrupulous out here who would lie and make false accusations for what ever sick gain is in their mind.
I hope that the monsters received heavy sentences. Anyone who exploits and preys upon others needs to go away for a very long time for the safety of all. Whether or not you realize it, you are a very brave woman.
sigh................our laws are beginning to border on the ridiculous and are being flaunted in the name of religious freedom. remove the damn face veil when going into court since the laws clearly state one cannot wear hats or carnival masks in court. i hope canada passes laws similar to france banning face veils. either drop the veil or accept the judgment which would be passed in your country: the raped woman will be imprisoned whether she's innocent or guilty and/or marry one of the men who raped her!
pssst Canada IS her country.
alverant: pssst i have news for you as well. if Canada IS her country, then she should damn well respect its laws instead of challenging Canada's laws in favour of her brand of judicial system (sharia anyone?). this is a test case to see how well Canada's laws are upheld.
Would this apply to ALL Canadian rape victims, or just Canadian rape victims of certain religious persuasions?
In the US, you swear to "god" on a Bible--yes, that is ridiculous, considering that many of our founders were not of any faith, You want to remove religious apparel in a court, remove any resemblance of a "god."
sandtrich, not sure how long it has been since you went to court, but about 5 years ago when I went to court in Colorado, all I had to do was raise my hand a swear to tell the truth. No so help me God or Bible.
Things are changing.
You see, sandtrich proves a point. When you let them in, they try to take away your customs and culture to appease them, and be "fair" to them.
As an American, I was wondering as to why it is that if I were to go live in any islamic country, why can't I keep my American ways? Bring my American culture? Dress my American way? Live my American lifestyle? I mean, it's only fair......right? After all, any other culture can come to the North American continent and bring their entire cultures with them and live just as if they were still in their own homeland. Well, I say "bull@!$%#"! Send them back to their country if they think that it's that good. I mean, if they can come here and still live as if they were back in there own country, then, why did they come here in the first place? Future terrorism? Sleepers? What's the best way to defeat your enemy in a war??? From the inside!
If you want to claim moral superiority, you can't claim "it's only fair". It's an obvious double standard that has no place in a rational discussion. Canada is only responsible for Canadian laws, not some "islamic" country.
Alverant, the point of the discussion is to bring out that THOSE PEOPLE that want to come to the West AND BRING their culture with them should go back home to where they can live under their own culture AND not come to the West and try to turn us into a POS country like they came from.
What I get from Bryant's comment is that WE can not go to where they came from and act as we will. Those that come here should not be allowed to make us into a land where Religious Insanity keeps us from doing what we want here...in our own land.
Amazing at how often conservatives talk about "victim's rights" only to turn their back and support the accused when the victim is either a woman or a minority. Victims and witnesses need protection from reprisals.
...and we all need protection from the insidious encroachment of Islam.
No one here is turning their backs on victims. Rape seems to be a popular false accusation as well as a frequent crime. Since you brought it up in another post, do you have the stats on various false accusations??? No matter what the charge may be, all parties involved should have the right to see each other face to face. I wouldn't want to be charged by some hidden "mystery" person for any reason. Would you???
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/oct/05/woman-admits-false-rape-charge-against-bartlett-ma/
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/03/another-woman-falsely-cries-rape.html
http://www.state-journal.com/news/article/4642687
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2_3ULc9jj8
http://home.earthlink.net/~jamiranda/whyLie.htm
I'm amused how so many "upright moral Christians" are bashing someone elses religious beliefs,and go absolute batsh*t when someone questions Christianity. Someone else practicing another religion is backwards, immoral and horrible sinners according to most who have post here. Way to prove you guys are closed minded jackasses.
CaerRaven, what about this religion...My Prophet is Adolf Hitler and I believe that all non Aryans should be gassed. My religion is NAZISM. DO YOU RESPECT MY RELIGION?
I mean you have to automatically respect my religion and give me special privilege. Right?
No, I am not really a NAZI, but I recognise a FASCIST Religion when I see one and calling it out doesn't make me a closed minded jackass or those other people that are Christians either.
Not at all. If you were really worshipping Hitler as long as you weren't personally harming anyone? go for it. Hell, worship prescription bottles for all I care. You can SAY they deserved to be gassed, sure. But there's a vast difference between saying and doing. I can say I hope people die of squirrel AIDs. Doesn't mean that i'm going to go out there and do just that very thing. (if squirrel aids actually existed).
It does make people closed minded jackasses. To bash and hate on something the majority of people refuse to understand? It's silly, childish and very much close minded. Most people only understand what they've seen on the news.
Too many people hide behind religion as an excuse to hate. Instead of owning up to it and saying that they dislike it because they dislike it, they automatically drop the God card and say God hates it, therefor everyone should too. And if they don't...then well.. everyone is going to hell.
I always saw it that you have a right to religious freedom but the law of the land is still enforced. If you believe in polygamy but it is against the law you can be prosecuted. If you believe it is your religious duty to kill infidels you can be prosecuted. And if the law says your accuser has a right to face you, not to mention the rules about head/face coverings in the courtroom, then you abide by the rules or face consequences. In this case if one cannot abide by courtroom rules then I guess drop the charges as the case cannot proceed lawfully.
It seems only right for a person on trial to face their accuser(s). I don't know or care who is lying in this case, as I am not a jury member(nor can be because I'm not a Canadian...wish I were sometimes though). I would like the right to at least be able to verify that I have seen my accuser before(if even only to myself).
Hypothetical Scenario:
Ex-wife hires unscrupulous type to fake rape charges, giving said person all necessary details...
Case goes to trial, but you can't I.D. the accuser...no rape kit needed..."accuser" is excellent actor....conviction for a crime not committed ensues
How could that be justice? You all know people can be convicted(or found innocent) by an emotional jury. Seeing your accuser can only serve to validate the process.
Arrest all the Muslim women in the US and they cannot pull this stuff. Deport them. This is a Christian country. We need to take back our country now before there are Muslim judges and they will take over and tell us Americans what to do. They will vote in that Sharia law that bans Christians. Round them up now or just nuke the mid east to get rid of them.
It is happening in Canada. There really needs to be a comprehension test for comments here.
OHC, Trolls can not read very well. Way too many years under the bridge.
If the veil keeps the defense from facing the accuser, it cannot be allowed. If the veil does not it mus be allowed.
I think she should be forced to marry him since she wants to keep her culture. Either that or remove the damn veil.