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Romeo Gacad / AFP - Getty Images
Dutch Ambassador to Indonesia Tjeerd de Zwaan (C) accompanied by local officials, offers flowers to Rawagede massacre victims after he formally apologized Friday on behalf of the Dutch government for the 1947 killings.
RAWAGEDE, Indonesia — After six decades of waiting, relatives of hundreds of men and boys killed in a notorious massacre during Indonesia's bitter struggle for independence finally got what they wanted: an official apology from the Dutch state.
Tjeerd de Zwaan, ambassador to Indonesia, made the announcement before hundreds of villagers in Rawagede, scene of the Dec. 9, 1947 killings of up to 430 boys and young men by Dutch troops.
"Today, Dec. 9," the ambassador began, "we remember the members of your families and those of your fellow villagers who died 64 years ago through the actions of the Dutch military."
"On behalf of the Dutch government, I apologize for the tragedy that took place," he added.
The crowd, tense with emotion, erupted in cheers and applause.
De Zwaan repeated his message in Bahasa, the Indonesian language, al-Jazeera reported.
Tears rolled down the cheeks of surviving widows, now in their late 80s and early 90s, some of whom had started to doubt they would ever hear those words.
"It makes me feel my struggle for justice was not useless," said Cawi binti Baisa, who was 20 when her husband of two years headed to the rice paddy in the morning never to return.
Dutch troops clinging to their retreating colonial empire arrived in Rawagede just before dawn 64 years ago and opened fire, sending sleepy residents scattering from their homes in panic.
The soldiers were looking for resistance leader Lukas Kustario, known for ambushing Dutch bases. When villagers said they didn't know where he was, nearly all the men were rounded up and taken to the fields.
Squatting in rows, with both hands placed on the backs of their heads, they were shot one by one.
Huge emotional stir
The apology — more than six decades later — followed a landmark ruling by a Dutch court in September that said the state was responsible for the massacre.
It also agreed to pay euro20,000 ($27,000) to 10 plaintiffs, three of whom have since died, said their lawyer, Liesbeth Zegveld.
But it wasn't immediately clear when or how funds would be distributed.
Romeo Gacad / AFP - Getty Images
Indonesian widow Anti Rukiyah, in her 90's, visits the tomb of her husband Saleh Tanuwijaya at the Rawagede monument of independence where victims of a 1947 massacre by Dutch military troops are buried in the town of Rawagede, in West Java province on September 15, 2011.
The presence of de Zwaan at the annual commemoration held at Rawagede Hero Cemetery — where many of the victims were buried in a mass grave — caused a huge, emotional stir.
Big white tents were erected to provide relief from the blazing tropical sun.
Several women involved in the case — their faces lined with heavy wrinkles and their eyes milky with cataracts — said the apology was much more important than whatever money they eventually get.
What they most wanted was closure.
Wanti binti Sariman was nine months pregnant with her second child when her 26-year-old husband, Tarman, was taken to a field with around 60 other men.
Nightmares of blood in the water
She later found his body in the last of three rows of corpses.
"I was so shocked to see him lying there with the other men," she said. "It had been raining. Their blood was mixed with the water, creating red pools all around them.
"I can't get that image out of my head," she said. "I still have nightmares about it."
Some men managed to escape, hiding in the swamps and plantations, she said. But they were eventually chased down by dogs and shot.
"It was horrific. But I've come to accept it. That was our destiny," the widow said as she wiped away her tears. "And of course, we have to forgive the troops who killed our men."
The other women around her nodded.
"It's true," said Lasmi binti Kasilan, who lost her baby after her seventh month of pregnancy when she learned of her husband's death.
"We never wanted vengeance. We wanted an apology and compensation, and in the end, we got it."
The Dutch government has never prosecuted any soldiers for the massacre, despite a United Nations report condemning the attack as "deliberate and ruthless" as early as 1948.
A 1968 Dutch report acknowledged "violent excesses" in Indonesia but argued that Dutch troops were carrying out a "police action" often incited by guerrilla warfare and terror attacks.
Former Foreign Minister Ben Bot expressed deep regret for offenses by Dutch forces throughout Indonesia in 1947, but the government had never before formally apologized to relatives in Rawagede.
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Leave a Comment:
I've always heard the Dutch were stubborn, but this is ridiculous.
Better late than never. One day maybe even US will apologize for the war crimes in Philippines http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/US/U.S.Philippines.htm
I've never heard of this massacre before. How tragic. I can't even begin to imagine what that felt like for anyone involved.
Max, now somehow I'm to blame for something that happened over 100 yrs ago
Really??
I'm surprised that they didn't escape when they heard all the wood shoes marching toward them
It just goes to show that the West is held to a higher moral standard than the Asians. The Japanese still have not appologized for the massacre of Dutch and English nurses and wounded prisoners of war along with all the other heinous attrocities committed by them. I guess the Indonesians are also give a pass for the attrocities they committed by their side of the struggle.
Mudrake... yes, Japanese war crimes are far worse that Nazi war crimes, yet the West did very little to prosecute them. Whose fault is that?
@marklepew- hilarious dude!
No, not as an individual; but it is the collective responsibility of Americans to apologize for our atrocious behavior at that time. It is the very least we can do for our incredible arrogance. And you would want some acknowledgement of our mistakes if you lived in The Philippines.
That Dutch apology was a long time coming, and should definitely have been made decades sooner. But at least it now will give the Indonesian people who are still alive and who were there some measure of peace. It cost the Dutch very little, and sometimes an apology is all that is necessary to restore dignity and respect. And Max, yes, the Japanese were indeed vicious, merciless and brutal in WWII, and even in their conflicts earlier in history on that side of the world, but the deliveries they got in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as payment for their massacre in Pearl Harbor & their brutality to our soldiers would remove THEIR need to apologize to US, don't you think? When our soldiers marched into the city in Japan after its surrender, they had a total expectation of brutality from our army, but they were stunned to realize that we were not the monsters their government painted us to be. Since then, our peoples, and our economies, have been intertwined in an extraordinary relationship--the kind of relationship that would not demand an apology to us for something that happened 60 years ago. However, the Japanese value of honor dictates that THEY DO OWE others an apology--namely Korea and China--for what they did to THEIR people prior to WWII. That would do so much for restoring dignity and respect in their relationship with those nations.
There are many apologies due others across the world. It is possible to accept an apology and move on, but it is not possible to forget.
Tess... I see the atomic bomb attack on essentially civilian targets as a US war crime. But one war crime does not erase another war crime. The war criminals on both sides should have been brought to justice. Same goes for British war criminals and their crimes of carpet bombing German cities in WW2.
The Dutch are more than "stubborn." The reason to slam the Dutch is nearly 70 yrs of denying this attrocity. The world view of Dutch culture is through the lens of Amsterdam which is like defining all Americans by visiting San Francisco for a weekend. The Dutch declared neutrality toward the Nazis in WWII and many supported Hitler. Some did not, but they are definitely Aryans in mindset and culture.
Then you wonder why all those "brown" people hate the West.
Has our US government apologized and compensated Viet Nam for the Mai Lai massacre and the bombings of hospitals and other buildings indiscriminately? Or the firebombings of Tokyo under General Curtis LeMay with the goal of burning down the houses of civilians and killing one million in the process? Or for the Contra War in Nicaragua that created 2 billion dollars in damage and was condemed by the World Court by a 13-3 verdict? Etc. Let apologies and reparations begin with Us.
so-called "Truth Teller", you do not know the Dutch. They are not Nazis in mentality, but neither are the Germans. The latter were deceived by the patriotic appeals of the Nazis early on against French government treatment of their country and finances. Suddenly they found themselves captive, as the Nazis rapidly clamped down on all opposition and resistance. The Dutch were rolled over by the very efficient and powerful Nazi German war machine, as were all countries at the beginning of WW II. Queen Wilhelmina escaped and there was a Dutch government in exile. Many Dutch hid Jews, including Anna Frank. The Dutch Catholic bishops denounced the Nazis persecution, but got an even more brutal clamp down from the Nazis (that's when they found Anna Frank). The Dutch are a great and tolerant people, but the government in 1947 was abusive with their colonial empire so as to maintain it under control Other nations have had their governments abuse that way, even out own US governments.
Max^108
Mudrake... yes, Japanese war crimes are far worse that Nazi war crimes, yet the West did very little to prosecute them. Whose fault is that?
Max - The victors of WWII did more to prosecute the Japanese than the Germans. It is just not very well known. The prosecution of the Japanese was known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (or the Tokyo Trials). Over 5700 Japanese in all were indicted, with the main trial (the East equivilant of the Nuremberg Trial) putting 28 on the defense.
An apology on behalf of someone else is empty at best, and offensive at worst. If you weren't the person that wronged someone, then your apology is useless.
A long time ago lots of Europeans killed lots of Native Americans. A long time ago lots of white people held lots of black people as slaves.
I'm white, and a decedent of those Europeans. I had no control over what my ancestors did back then. If I went out to the reservation and found a random Navajo, and told him I was sorry, or if I went and found a black guy, and said I was sorry, does anybody expect it to do anything at all for them?
And why not? "Arabs" have been blamed for what happened in New York City a little more than ten years ago. Oh, and "Japs" have been blamed for the attack on Pearl Harbor, "gooks" for the things that happened in Vietnam -- and "them damn injuns" for Custer's stupidity at the Battle of The Greasy Grass (the Little Bighorn) in Montana. Why shouldn't you be blamed for what YOUR government did to the Indigenous Peoples more than 100 years ago?
Bc005- YOU are not the United States. The US is a country that continues whether YOU are alive or dead. When the US apologizes, it's not YOU personally. The country apologizes for terrible past policies--for example to Japanese Americans for imprisoning them during WWII.
The US needs to apologize for its history of slavery.
Yes, Spencer, it does a lot -- it shows that YOU do not condone what happened. Yes, it REALLY DOES mean a lot.
Max, had you seen the analysis of World War II, you would know that, if we had not dropped those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was very possible we would have lost the war. And as far as prosecuting US for that as a war crime, you should first consult the Japanese to determine if that's something they ever want to pursue. Many Japanese, after discovering the truth about what THEIR soldiers and government had done during their wars, were horrified and shamed, and then understood.
Tess, I have seen all sorts of analyses when it comes to the 'need' of using nuclear strikes against Japan, as well as selection of the target cities. And in my mind it clearly was a war crime as defined by the Geneva convention rules. As to claiming that "if we had not dropped those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was very possible we would have lost the war" - I place that thought firmly in the fairytale or pure propaganda / war apologism sections...
Mossie; Et Al, I fine your arguments to be specious, and lamentably circular. If you wish to wear a hair shirt and self flagellate do it. I pose the question are the sins of the father visited on the sons? I think not, as this is never ending.
PS Biblical scholars, I am aware of verses confirming both sides, so not necessarily needed here
Bc005, by refusing to speak out against what was done by YOUR GOVERNMENT "more than 100 years ago" -- you show that a)You don't think it was really all that bad; and b)You condone what happened, even if only a "little bit".
Well, guess that means no future Iranian government ever has to apologize to anyone for what today's Iranian government has ever done.
Q 1, Neither I prefer to spend my efforts preventing
@ Tess
The number of Chinese men women and children murdered by the Japanese after the Doolittle raid on Tokyo far exceeded the number of japanese killed in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the two initial blasts and from radiation poisoning.
And that was just ONE of their murerous rampages.
It does not include the 100,000+ Philipinos murdered as the japanese were losing Manila to the Allies.
It does not include the several hundred thousand Allied POWs that they murdered outright or died while forced into slave labor under appalling conditions.
It does not include, as the japanese were retreating, the tens of thousnds of Allied POWs that were murdered, many by being burned alive, in order to hide the japanese atrocities.
Is that enough or do you want me to list some of the many, many atrocities commited against civilians?
@ Max
Your 20/20 hindsight is somewhat myopic
The Allies would not have lost the was without the Atomic bombs. HOWEVER, The estimated cost in Allied casualties of invading mainland japan, using the casualty ratio in the taking of okinawa, approached one million troops.
Did you see, first hand, the fortifications and defenses throughout the japanese islands? Did you see the mazes of tunnels that were stocked with food water and munitions on the island of honshu? I did.
The Allies found out, the hard way, that their defenses were little effected by our pre-invasion bombardments.
So, was the dropping of the atomic bombs war crimes? Unequivocally NO!
P.S.: My non capitalization of japanese, japan and her islands was intentional.
The fact of the matter is, they DID pay for their atrocities. They lost. Do not forget that we committed our own atrocities during these wars. The USA is not innocent. The fact of the matter is, it was war. They were in a war and doing whatever they could to win. That's what war is. If you lose a war, things do NOT turn out well for you. It's a struggle for power and retaining independence. In this case, the article states that Indonesia was fighting for it's own independence. It was Civil War, just like the North and the South in our own country.
So tell me, if the South actually won, would the North have apologized for all the deaths? Probably not. The fact of the matter is, Indonesia fought for it's independence knowing the consequences, and it won. They started it with insurrection. The article even says the Dutch were hunting down the leader of someone known for leading AMBUSHES against them. If they were ambushing my troops, I'd do anything I could to get rid of him too.
There's a little thing called karma. Karma is energy, and it doesn't go away until someone apologizes for atrocities. It doesn't matter who does the apologizing; so it might as well be you. That doesn't mean that you are personally to blame; there is no blame. There just is a situation that has to be rectified. It doesn't cost a thing to say you're sorry, does it? These are your brothers, and they are in pain.
Maybe just Maybe one day Israel might apologize to the palestinians for the genocide they have done. But, they are arrogant and stubborn so i doubt that will ever happen, actually they are still commiting mass murdering against the Palestinians so maybe one day when they stop and 64 years after that date theyyy mighhtt apologize but who knows by than they might illegally occupy the whole middle east under the false pretense of "defense" to carry out their murderous rampage against the Palestinians
@Patriot: A very good book on the Israeli-Palestinian situation is "Married To Another Man" by Ghada Karmi. The book gets its title from when a group of rabbis went looking for land to call "home" and found the area of Israel. They cabled back to the ones who sent them on this search saying, "The bride is lovely, but she is married to another man", meaning that the land they wanted was already occupied. So they just took it. And it's been a highly unsuccessful state of affairs ever since.
hdrider, I believe I said the Japanese DO OWE apologies--but I didn't ennumerate them all as extensively as you did--but only a sampling of those against others besides our troops. I am WELL AWARE of the brutality and atrocities perpetrated against Allied troops, against Phillipinos, etc. during the war. Every one of my six uncles served in the military at that time. In the army, navy, air force ,and the merchant marines which were covertly shipping munitions & supplies to Britain (or tried to) and being constantly sought and torpedoed by German submarines. He and his crew survived such a torpedoing. And his Naval brother survived a shelling by a German destroyer. And two of them did serve in the South Pacific, in the Phillipines--they were firsthand recipients and witnesses! They, miraculously, came home alive--(in fact, somehow all six did). I am echoing one of their sentiments, because he WAS a prisoner, so forgive, please, if, after he learned of the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and later seeing the aftermath, he said it was enough in his opinion. One of them was in Germany and saw firsthand the prisoners in a concentration camp--Jews, Poles, Russians, some Americans, their haunted look, their emaciation, their illness--and the bodies piled in heaps like trash. And to a man, every one of them resented the GERMANS all their lives, and laid the blame squarely on them. Surprisingly, there was not so much animosity against the Japanese, even though one was their prisoner. They said, and I quote, "If it were not for that *&$%# Hitler and the dumbsh*t Germans, the Japanese never would have attacked us." Enough on this subject. I'm signing off.
$27.000? Isn't that what you call adding insult to injury?
I don't think any amount of money would sound like enough - but in Indonesia where the GDP per capita is around $3,000 dollars, $27,000 is quite a large chunk of change.
It would be the equivalent of getting about a $500,000 payout in the United States.
Never underestimate the value of an apology. We're hardwired to be lenient to those who are sorry. It's an important social function. You can even see it in the animal kingdom; a dog who submits in a fight is rarely killed.
Sadly, our ability to apologize has been short-circuited by the courts. An apology is an admission of guilt. Who wants to say sorry when it opens them up to financial ruin?
Agreed. $27,000 is a tremendous amount of money, enough to change a life or a families status. I have always said that the value placed on a life is equal to the potential a culture places on that life. In Third World Asia, life is cheap. I could have you killed in Bangkok for $50, in Jakarta, probably $25. That is not an indication of what you, a Westerner are worth, but the value the killer places on the associated risk. Those amounts 15 years ago used to be a months wage. Its probably higher now. But my point is in the Third World, their culture sees very little potential in a life, just another pair of hands to work the family plot. That is why daughters and sisters are sold into prostitution by fathers and brothers. The female has much more potential to help the family by selling her, where paying a dowry to a husband is a negative.
The Third World does not see as much potential in a life as we do in the west.
The payout for those killed is like winning the lottery. That is why in places like Bangkok and Jakarta, expat professionals hire drivers. If a Westerner say working for an oil company is seen behind the wheel of a car, people are not above deliberately stepping in front of it to get a payout. The risk of being killed is offset by the potential payout. I had a coworker who was involved in such an event, the company, Phillips Petroleum had him and his family on a flight out of the country that day. They settled with the aggrieved family, but blood feuds are not unknown and the wanted to protect their employee.
So the bottom line, don't put a western price tag on life in the Third World, you'll be paying way way too much.
my sympathies to the survivors...it's only been a little over two years for me...still waiting for my apology; he11, i'd settle for the truth!!!
BS. Pure BS. What YOU see as the "third world" not caring about the lives of others is just the "third world" applying the lessons it has learned from "the west" -- that GREED and the acquiring of MATERIAL WEALTH is all that truly matters.
Never have I heard anything bad bout the Dutch till now. Incredible. It seems they waited until almost everyone of the victims were gone so they didn't have to pay so much. $27 thousand sounds like a lot of money, but that's because there just isn't anyone much left. Horrible
Even worse, the God Dam Attorney get their cut
The Dutch? the number one collaborators of the Germans in hunting Jews in Europe! 27.000? in the US for an accident you can get millions...... on the other hand the US pays 2500 $ for every civilian they kill in Afghanistan or Iraq by mistake.....so don't get too high and self righteous.
@yellahammer
Of course the attorney gets his cut! The attorney isn't a socialist working for free! Besides the original people who filed the lawsuit are dead so now they have to decide who gets the money. If the attorney wasn't working on this than nobody would be getting anything and the Dutch would have never issued an appology.
Amadeo ... the Ann Frank diaries have been proven to be false and a fraud. Writing them in ball point pen wasn't possible during the war ...
You have a link to verify because I found this.....
http://www.annefrank.org/content.asp?PID=794&LID=2
The origin of the "ballpoint myth" is the four-page report that the Federal Criminal Police Office (the Bundeskriminalamt or BKA) in Wiesbaden, which was published in 1980. In this investigation into the types of paper and ink used in the diary of Anne Frank it is stated that "ballpoint corrections" had been made on some loose sheets. The BKA’s task was to report on all the texts found among the diaries of Anne Frank, and therefore also on the annotations that were made in Anne’s manuscripts after the war. However, the Dutch investigation by the Forensic Institute in the mid-1980’s shows that writing in ballpoint is only found on two loose pages of annotations, and that these annotations are of no significance for the actual content of the diary. They were clearly placed between the other pages later. The researchers of the Forensic Institute also concluded that the handwriting on these two annotation sheets differs from the writing in the diary "to a far-reaching degree." Photos of these loose annotation sheets are included in the NIOD’s publication (see The Diary of Anne Frank: The Revised Critical Edition, 2003, pages 168 and 170). In 1987, a Mr Ockelmann from Hamburg wrote that his mother had written the annotation sheets in question. Mrs Ockelmann was a member of the team that carried out the graphological investigation into the writings of Anne Frank around 1960.
Judson - where is your proof, or are you simply a Neo-nazis, Holocaust denier? If you can produce citations supporting your claim, are they from legitimate, unbiased sources or from some fringe religious cult with a vested interest in proving that the diary is a fake?
You are disgusting. Learn to read and think for yourself instead of believing what someone tells you who is equally ignorant as you are.
Judson is just a nut job. Best if we let him make a fool out of himsef.
Deniers and their statements are actually a good thing, it shows that they are infact imbarrassed about the Holocaust, and their own perverted thoughts about right and wrong. They truely know that the Holocaust happened, but like George Lincoln Rockwell, they realize that admitting it will only weaken the ability to achieve their goals.
The scarry ones are those that admit the Holocaust and are imbarassed that "they didn't do enough". Very scarry.
and what about those that say yeh the holocaust is bad but gets much more credit then other even larger mass murders, like those under the rule of stalin. sorry, holocaust was bad, but people blow up its significance.
cleansweeper,
I think the reason the Holocaust is considered worse by many people is because of the reason behind it.
Yes, Stalin killed more of his own people in the gulags than Hitler murdered in the concentration camps. However, the people killed under Stalin were killed because they were considered "enemies of the State". It wasn't because they were a particular ethnic group or a minority or something like that. They were simply considered a threat and eliminated.
The Jews were slaughtered because they were Jews, not because of any perceived threat. I that makes it worse in the minds of many. What Stalin did was monstrous and please don't think I'm attempting to imply that it wasn't. I honestly hope there is a hell and he's roasting down there for eternity for his evil. But what he did wasn't genocide.
I think that is why what Hitler and the Nazis did was worse.
How about we not start ranking genocides....
You obviously do not read much history. The Dutch were notorious harsh colonial masters. They ruled the Congo, Dutch Indonesia. They were only a step up from Columbus in their treatment of the people in their colonial possessions. The natives when given the chance, paid the treatment back in kind. In the Congo, in the 80's they rounded up some of the more tenacious Dutch expats that still lived there, raped the women, then put them in churches and lobbed grenades in through the windows. Time Mag had pictures of the resulting carnage.
I know first hand how the Dutch are today. Ever been to or see pictures of the brothels in Amsterdam?
There are an awful lot of brown asian faces, because Dutch pimps recruit young girls from Bangkok and Indonesia. I knew one in Thailand that by age 18 had already done a turn in Amsterdam and was working the clubs in Bangkok at the ripe old age of 19. I met the Dutch son of the proprietor of a number of brothels in Amsterdam who was there recruiting.
The scum killer who killed the gal in Aruba and then another in S. America and was finally convicted is but a glimpse of what the Dutch were like as colonial masters.
Hitler did it because he was convinced that the Jews WERE enemies of the state tho. The others that he killed he considered enemies of his race, the unpure, the mentally handicapped, homosexuals, the Romani, etc. It wasn't just some random thing he woke up one morning and felt like doing, and it had the same basis behind it as Stalin, hell as most genocidal maniacs - some perceived threat. I think the only real difference is, Hitler did it all over Europe, whereas Stalin mostly killed Russians/Unionists. Like Saddam gassing all those Kurds, oh it sucks but what can you do, then he rolls a few tanks into his neighbor Kuwait and all of a sudden it's on.
The first african slaves brought to America were introduced by the Dutch in 1619.
Mudrake2, the Belgians ruled the Congo, not the Dutch. The only colony the Dutch had in Africa was the Cape Colony on the southern tip, but that was seized by the British in 1814.
They controlled South Africa up until the 1990's..at least the descendents of Dutch and other European settlers did. Thru a little thing called Apartheid.
Capt Tripps, your thinking of the Boers, who were of Dutch, French Huguenot, and German descent, but after 1814 they were independant from the Dutch.
Mudrake2: You didn't control your data in your anti-Dutch rant. The Congo was Belgian, not Dutch. What does that show about your research? You take one Dutch scumbag in Aruba and try to make a case about the Dutch in general??? What kind of bigoted thinking is that? What about the US in Central America in the last 100 years? We chased out Presidents Zelaya and Madriz of Nicaragua early on and sent in Marines to occupy the Country from 1912 to 1925 because we wanted to have a free option to build a 2nd canal there, and we gave Brown Bros bankers the control of the Nat'l Bank of Nicaragua and the Customs offices. When Sandino rebelled against US intervention in 1926, we sent the Marines in again to occupy the country from 1927 to 1933, but they couldn't defeat Sandino. Then our "long arm", Somoza I and the Guardia Nacional, invited Sandino to a peace meal, but seized him and killed him and two of his generals. The Contra War had the US directing a terror campaign in the mountainous back country and paid US gun-runners with drugs to take back free to the US (look up Eugene Hasenfus, caught by the Sandinistas while he was on a US mission to deliver arms to the Contras). The US government backed a military coup de etat in Guatemala in 1954, because the democratically-elected government wanted to nationalize unused land belonging to United Fruit. There were military dictatorships for decades after that and 200,000 Mayan Indians were slaughtered by the military. Panama was "taken" by Teddy Roosevelt, according to his own words, with a view to getting control of the future Canal Zone. The bloody invasion to seize Noriega was payback for his refusing to invade Nicaragua so the US could intervene, as Noriega himself told it. Etc, etcetera.
The Western world has for some years been made aware of a young Jewish girl through the medium of what purports to he her personally written story, "Anne Frank's Diary." Any informed literary inspection of this book has shown it to have been impossible as the work of a teenager.
A noteworthy decision of the New York Supreme Court confirms this point of view, in that the well known American writer, Meyer Levin, has been awarded $50.000 to be paid him by the father of Anne Frank as an honorarium for Levin's work on the "Anne Frank Diary."
What are you even talking about Anne Frank....
I'm sure the story left out that Goerge Bush had traveled back in time and ordered the innocent dutch to kill, using mind control. I don't think it made ANY difference. Admit it or not. It doesn't change the facts or give back life, it's all more hot air, forcing governments to appologize for the transgressions of previous generations is useless and pitiful. I'm waiting for Russia to appologize for Stalin and the deaths of communist rule. But that's right , the appologies are meant to weaken moral countries, not weaken corrupt and immoral countries.
Let me get this right, you think countries that are forced to apologize are moral? LMAO
PS. Maybe corporations that are forced to apologize are moral too, huh? Still LMAO
You may not think it made any difference but the survivors did. Do you really think your opinion of their suffering is more important than theirs?
HeIsTheGreatest - I think it's time you apologize for being wrongheaded. How could someone referencing Muhammad Ali in their screen name be so dim?
No, I think it's assinine to think the appology holds any value. The particulars are gone. Idiots like yourself sit around waiting for an appology instead of living your life. The Dutch government is no better or worse today than it was yesterday. But idiots like yourself, want an appology for wrongs that were not directed at yourself. It didn't make ANY difference, the people still lived 63 years without thier loved ones. So, I will appologize for you being a stupid idiot even though I had nothing to do with your ignorance. That should make the rest of your life better. I am sorry you are stupid...now I can breathe having got that off my chest after soooooo many years.
Actually the apology itself kind of proves the Dutch government is better now than it was when the massacre occurred, which is kind of the point of it - the simple act of actually acknowledging what happened and the wrongness of their actions makes it so. That's what it means to apologize, it says as much about you, as the people you are saying it to (and that goes for apologies that are half hearted and forced, those tell you a lot about the person giving them as well) Also this particular apology was directed at the survivors of the massacre, and the families of the dead, so uh, exactly at the people who were wronged.
The @!$%# is your beef with people saying sorry? Especially for something as heinous as this? Only a coward or a despot would refuse to apologize if their actions require it. Russia SHOULD apologize, to a lot of people. They won't. Do you know WHY they won't? It's that the same mentality you want "good" countries to tout?
The day they and countries like them can come completely to terms with their past is the day they can move beyond it.
//
//
HeIsTheGreatest -" Idiots like yourself sit around waiting for an appology "
I gess I am an Idoit thenk yu for teling me.
BTW It must be nice to wake up every day in a brand new world - Is it because you can't remember as far back as yesterday or is that there is so much ugliness you prefer not to remember?
So WHEN someone kills any person that "HeIsTheGreatest" happens to like, love or whatever -- there should be no apology at all because the action is not directed toward "HeIsTheGreatest". Ok, got it.
Guess that makes you, HeIsTheGreatest, an idiot.
"Police action"? That was a common Gestapo term and it is a sick mind that believes that rationalization. And "police actions" are still going on around the world today.
Also the statement "Minimal use of force" is a code for gestapo tactics.
It never ceases to amaze me how people try to rationalize what their Governments do by assuming that the title of the perpetrator justifies their actions. You can't justify crimes against humanity by labling it top secret or calling it Police action. The people who question their governments on these abuses are not traitors but the truest of all patriots.
Just remember the two most famous "police actions" the U.S.A. was involved in between WW2 and G. W. Shrub's "war on terrorism" -- Korea and Vietnam. Ask anyone who was anywhere near the front lines of those "police actions" and they'll tell you straight out that they were WARS.
Q 1 On this we agree
The Dutch were occupied by Germany in WWII and after they were liberated, they promptly re-invaded and tried to re-occupy Indonesia. They should apologize for that whole war, not just for one massacre. There were many.
the Dutch killed about a million Indonesians..... all of those European Empires are the same, the British, the French etc...
Every nation is the same if they have the weapons and the power to force their will on others.
You can't be drawing any parallel lines between then and now, could you? LMAO
Sure they should Kevin. I mean the Japanese were doing such a better job and it is more fun to point at the white guy and say murderer. Isn't it? Gee amadeo I million huh? Did they eat them too?
Don't forget the atrocities committed by Asian nations, African nations, South American, etc. Seems it's more a human problem than a geographical one.
The atrocities committed by the Asian, African, and Latin American countries were just as bad, but at least they were brutalizing their own people and didn't invade other countries and massacure their citizens.
That's 100% correct, MasterBlaster, it's one should always require an apology from others for what they do -- but never apologize for what YOU do.
Oh, wait.....that would make you a HYPOCRITE, wouldn't it?
your not all your quacked up to be. You just don't get it. the little dutch minister sprinkling weed on the monuments of course help bring the dead back to life..Idiot
Better late than never. One day maybe even US will apologize for the war crimes in Philippines http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/US/U.S.Philippines.htm
It's going to be one of those days isn't it, Max? Where you post the same thing over and over about half a dozen times in each article?
What can I say Bro... I want to make sure it registers with those who only read the first few lines...
I read you link, and moving to a country doesn't mean a takeover. Oh wait a minute,,,,,the muslums moving here by the millions.....is it possible? can they be planning on a takeover by sheer numbers? OMG
An apology should be issued to the American-Japanese that were interned in concentration camps during WWII and the civilian victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There was no need to throw the bomb at cities to accelerate the end of war. Truman could have ordered it be dropped at a military compound or at a desolated place in Japan with warnings that the next target would be the central government unless they surrendered. That would have probably been sufficient.
Due to the calendar of events the United States was the LAST nation to use aircraft against civilians. Atomic bomb or no atomic bomb the people are no more or less dead. If everyone is going to start insisting on some sort of inter-national mea culpa the U.S. has to go to the back of the line.
Nagasaki was the Japanese Navel Headquarters. Hiroshima was the Japanese ground forces largest base.
Thank you, army-3854635, I was going to chime in with that one. Besides, Foreign attorney, the Japanese government was warned, but did not heed it, and deliberately put their military facilities right next to civilian populated areas as a deterrent.
Did they apologize for the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor??
Aguinaldo fought a heroic war against the US occupiers who took over from Spain over 110 years ago, but he lost his fight for the independence of the Philippines, but they were able to gain it later.
Army etc.: The firebombing of Tokyo by Gen. Curtis Le May was intended to burn the wooden houses of the Japanese civilians and demoralize them. Those bombings caused the deaths of one million Japanese civilians, more than the atomic bomb attacks. I remember racism used during WW II to instill hate against the Japanese in the movies.
Mr Shin: In the US also, naval bases and army bases are very frequently right next to towns and cities for many reasons of convenience. So that is Not a valid argument.
So the Japanese NAVAL Headquarters were located near/at Nagasaki and the "ground forces largest base" was located near/at Hiroshima..... Guess that means since there is a MAJOR Military base located near/at almost every MAJOR City in the U.S.A., it's ok to obliterate those Cities just to take out the Military bases.
Gee, should a City such as SAN DIEGO ever be hit with a nuclear bomb during a war, we can all just sit back and say "well, it was justified because in that area/region are Naval Air Station, North Island; Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado; Imperial Beach; San Clemente Island; Fleet Anti-Submarine Base; Naval Station San Diego, Submarine Base, Old Town Campus; Broadway Complex in San Diego; Naval Air Station, Fallon, NV; Naval Air Station, Lemoore; Naval Weapons Station, Seal Beach, Naval Air Station Pt Mugu; CBC, Port Hueneme; Naval Medical Center, Balboa; and Naval Air Facility, El Centro."
Yep, just because there's a Military base nearby, it should always be ok to obliterate an entire City........
The Dutch Government that wasn't in power in 1947 has made an apology? They weren't responsible. They have nothing to apologize for.
The Dutch Government is apologizing on behalf of the Dutch Government.
Victims' family members are still alive and perhaps even some of the Dutch soldiers who perpetrated the massacre are stil alive. The victims families deserve an apology and any soldiers who participated in the massacre should be prosecuted for war crimes.
No different than a son apologizing for the sins of his father. He doesn't take responsibility, he's only trying to heal the wounds.
War crimes in the Philippines??? please give dates and places. Are you sure you don't mean The Japanese. I think we liberated them from Spain and Japan Max. This is why these useless apologies are a bad idea. It gives you nuts a Chance to come out from under your rocks and say ridiculous things. You get the stupid award.
He probably means the Phillipino-American war, you know the one they fought against us when we basically occupied them right after they got rid of Spain. Talk about slanting the facts holy @!$%#, you better polish that award and keep it on your own mantlepiece.
I always wonder how people live with themselves after they commit such atrocities. They must never speak of it again but really, how do they carry on?
They "carry on" by rationalizing it all with phrases such as "It was God's will" and "we brought them Civilization". But how "civilized" is it to commit genocide on a People who simply wish to be in control of their own National Destiny?
trippy how about you think straight... We defeated Spain in the Spanish American war and the Philippines were succeeded to us. Why not stay a little more current in your false rants, like not the start of the last century. It was a different time. The war you speak of was a civil war not a American Filipino war. We did get involved but your an amazing ass with the facts
DId the brits ever apologise for killing innocent americans during the revolution or the war of 1812? NO. Do we require it now, of course not. It happened so long ago that we are all related in some way. The Dutch were also involved in the slave trade as they purchased the slaves from their ARAB owners and ran the ships to north and south America.
How about we just stop killing innocent men women and children or at least stop trying to justify it.
This didn't happen 200 years ago...there are still people alive who remember this. How do you think the families of those dead Americans felt about Britain? What are we going to do, judge everyone and everything by the lowest common denominator now?
Who the hell is we Pete?
People in general I imagine, since it seems to be a species-centric trait.
Does it REALLY matter whether it happened yesterday or 200 years ago? NO, IT DOES NOT.
Just remember folks....the Dutch have always been a mercantile society. For such a neat and tidy people at home, they have truly created some disasters abroad.
Shell Oil is a Dutch company and look at the ecological disaster Shell did in West Africa. And please, let us not forget the Boers - the Dutch settlers and their activities in South Africa.
Somehow, they have escaped the negative connotation that they are cold and ruthless, like the Germans, but they are certainly not the nicest people on the block, either.
I'm nice, my dad's nice, my uncles and aunts are nice...and get this, we're dutch. There are bad apples in any ethnicity or group or institution. How can you judge the lot from the few?
The Irish have been waiting 600 years for the English to apologize for the genocide they inflicted on their country and culture. Indonesia "only" had to wait 64 years.
And Palestinians today are the victims of repression by Israel and that has yet to come to an end.
So? Take it up with the English.
The English and Welsh are waiting for an apology from the Irish for kidnapping the child who later became St Patrick. Of course there are a lot of families in Northern Ireland who are also waiting for apologies from the Irish Republican Army for blowing up their loved ones in cafes. The Japanese certainly should take a leaf out of the German book and make some effort to acknowledge and accept their action in the 1930's and 40's. Instead they have become like the Holocaust deniers and rewritten their history books.
So true, dummick, but those murderous English scum still have that want of taking over every country, so they may never get it.
The Algerians are waiting for the French to apologize, the Arminians the Turks, The Kurds the Iraqis, The Filipinos the Americans, the Unkranians the Russians, The Bosnians the Serbs, The Congalese the Belgins, the Natives the are waiting on the Canadians. The whole world is rife with terrible atrocities commited by every nationality imaginable and there are victims from every ethnicity imaginable. We all owe apologies and are due apologies. No point in pointing fingers at any one instance while turning a blind eye to the rest.
Sorry to bust yer bubble, Notanidiotlikeolegunny, but "St. Patrick" wasn't kidnapped by the "Irish Government". Your problem is that the genocide committed by the English against the Irish "600 years ago" was done as an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY.
Maybe you really are an idiot.
All European Colonialists Plundered, Raped and Murdered their conquered Citizen hosts. The French in Vietnam (French Indo China) Were the worst until little Ho Chi Minh tried to save his people, But America turned their back on him after WW2, after all the work he did for them. And handed back Vietnam to the Nazi/Japanese Collaborating French at the United Nations. And the World keeps Turning.
Many historians would say King Leopold II of Belgium's rule in the Congo was the worst as far as atrocities - he worked the natives to death (literally) trying to extract every bit of wealth and natural resources from the Congo, and would have the natives' hands cut off if they weren't productive enough. Contemporary governments and fellow monarchs regarded him as a monster.
The excuse of "they did it, too!" is still an EXCUSE, dxironman.
HeIsTheGreatest
I'm sure the story left out that Goerge Bush had traveled back in time and ordered the innocent dutch to kill, using mind control. I don't think it made ANY difference. Admit it or not. It doesn't change the facts or give back life, it's all more hot air, forcing governments to appologize for the transgressions of previous generations is useless and pitiful. I'm waiting for Russia to appologize for Stalin and the deaths of communist rule. But that's right , the appologies are meant to weaken moral countries, not weaken corrupt and immoral countries.
Thank you! Nothing more need be said.
Corrupt and immoral countries DON'T apologize. Because they are corrupt and immoral.
Good countries, like good people, admit when they are wrong, even if it's after the fact, and are no weaker for doing so. Takes more strength to say sorry than it does to say nothing.
"we remember the members of your families and those of your fellow villagers who died 64 years ago through the actions of the Dutch military."
No. It was a Massacre that was carried out.
IN WW2, Vietnam, Irag , Pakistan, Afghanistan atrocities like this were common place and still are today more then ever. Its WAR. That,s what happens.
Call it what you like you cannot justify it, you can't wash that off your hands call it what you like!
Don't see how that possibly makes it right.
Oh give me a break it's war that's what happens,or it's collateral damage,another dumb ass excuse and cop out, you hear from people who love tap dancing around this crap.
peter is right,call it what you want you still can't justify it,and you can't wash your hands of it.
Oh and BINGO Capt Tripps.
It happens in war, but intentional slaughter of civilians is never justified no mater who the perpetratos or the victims are.
So when will it be the turn of the Japanese to apologize for some of the most heinous atrocities the world has ever known, oh yeah they just deny they ever happened.
The Japanese owe China a full apology for the horrors they perpetrated there pre-WWII.
They'll probably never get one, though. The Japanese still think they can just deny everything and it will be ok.
Next we need to get the Catholic Church to apologize for its participation in the Holocaust.
Sorry retired - did not happen.
catholic.com/documents/how-pius-xii-protected-jews
Thank you, jazzman. more anti church venom from the herd.
At least in this case the troops were searching for violent rebels who attacked them and killed them. It does not make it right but you can kinda understand the troops's frustration and anger and kinda see the emotions behind the massacre.
Unfortunately, the colonial history of white race is rife with such brutal excesses as they spread out of Europe subjugating people that they considered more like animals than people.
One such incident took place in Jalianwala bagh in Amritsar in India where a peaceful gathering of thousands of unarmed indians who had gathered to listen to their leaders address the public were gunned down by British troops commanded by General Michael O'Dwyer.
Hundreds of men, women, older people and even children were killed and hundreds more injured.
Neither General O'Dwyer nor the British ever apologized for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre
But one must also acknowledge the that since the dark days of western colonialism, the white nations of the west have done a complete turn around and successfully established societies that are largely fair and inclusive with nary any racism or discrimination in day to day life.
I want a second opinion. What do you mean:" the white nations of the west have done a complete turn around and successfully established societies that are largely fair and inclusive with nary any racism or discrimination in day to day life." So, you think that a million plus of Iraqis don't into consideration for the complete turn around? And what were the Ducth doing there? So, don't tell me that that people who live in their countries are the terrorists, while the invaders are Snow White?
And don't forget that as with beauty, terrorism, war crimes are in the eyes of the beholder. The Dutch, I'm sure, feel that they didn't do any thing wrong, but we didn't follow that kind of thinking with the Nazis, or that retard pervert from Texas. Until the world makes those responsible for their crimes, be thrid world nations or "civilized" nations, this type of tragedy, genocide will continue, specially now that the white nations accepted torture, extra judicial killings, black boxes as the norm, will never end. I think the opposite is a better option. Since our tyrants didn't have to pay for their war crimes like the Nazis, I'm sure this is going to be the new M.O. for the "civilized" world.
For retired SFC. It seems that when you retired, you left your brains, if you had any, in the Army. Many catholics risked their lives, including nuns, in saving Jewish lives and not Jewish lives, but also slaves and have been against the mistreatment, torture of the meek by war criminals, be Muslim or Jew, friend or foe, civilian or military.
If you think that because the Jews criticized Pope Pius XII for supposedly not doing enough for saving more Jews is right, then to me it implies that you have chip on your shoulder against the catholic church. For starters and if impartiality and the truth is the main goal, you can't copy or take their word as gospel. They don't even believe in gospels. Heck, they don't even believe in Christ. Their main complaint is that the Pope didn't go against the Nazis with more bravado, like that would work against the worse of the worst. Diplomacy and behind the curtain deeds works better, specially with a subject so taboo as the final solution.
Would you ask a general, or a superior openly not to commit war crimes? Well, judging that you retired and wouldnt or didn't rock the boat, you didn't or wouldn't. Now, don't get all bent out of shape by what I'm saying, I'm just saying that if you were in that dilemma and you did what the Constitution say to do, you wouldn't have retired. What I'm trying to tell you is that it's just as important knowing your enemy and its possible reactions than compromising the lives of those few. but still in the hundreds of thousands Jews that were saved.
Now, let me give a perfect example of what would have happened if Pope Pius XII would have done what the Jews wanted him to do: Nothing and it could have exasperated the situation even more.
How many times the now Pope has criticized the Jewish state for war crmies against the Palestinians and how much has he accomplished? A dman zero, nothing because as with the Nazis, the Jewish government is not going to pay attention to no one. Not the UN, not the U.S who give them billions and instead of gratitude they spit on our faces and why? Because they know they can do with America whatever the hell they want to. They own us. If they don't pay attention to America, are your trying to tell me that the Pope, any Pope is going to make them to stop that genocide? I don't know what your answer will be, but I have my idea based on your comment. Mine, of course, will be: Hell no. I don't know if you are black, but suppossing that you are, let me use the KKK instead. Do you think that the KKK would have listen to anyone pleading for the lives of blacks? Hell no. Then, why to expect any different reaction from the worse evil that Earth has known? Jews always will have a bone to pick with the wrong people. Have the Jews ever criticized the U.S. for allowing nazi war criminals to escape the death penalty when they allopwed their scientists escape, brought in by the same government that put in place the Nuremberg trials? And why that double morality? Our government had already known that Hitler was working to develop the atomic bomb and many other war related projects that are still going on today, so as superb hypocrites they were, they looked the other way and the Jews didn't even say moo. There is an adage that states: The monkey kinows which tree to climb and nobody better than the Jews to know that those they couldn't touch those war criminals with a ten ft pole. Remember than in those days, the Jews were seen as worse than 'illegals" today, worse than Okies during the dust bowl, otherwise, why do you think the holocaust happened. Also, let's not forget that America came into both WWs at the intermission with fresh troops while the other sides were already showing signs of exhaustion. Maybe we were waiting to see who they could bet on who the winner would be. Moral of the story, stupid comments like yours, instead of enlighting, make things worse.
People who try to rationalize and justify their actions by saying that they are just following orders are true scum no matter what country they belong to! and those who question their despicable actions are the real patriots, a real patriot does not keep his mouth shut when fellow human beings are murdered.
May they all rest in peace now. My parents were stuck in the middle of all this....
Were they in Rawagede when it happened or were they somewhere else in Indonesia during the war? I know people who were in Bandung during the war and who actually witnessed the burning of the city in front of the pursuing Dutch army.
Nice of the Dutch to do this. I married a Dutch boy in 1975. Biggest mistake I ever made. Now if our government will do this much for the Native Americans.
We did, Obama signed it into law in 2009, I believe.
Apologies and reperations need to be done to uplift spirits of both victims and victimizers of crimes against humanity. The denial or refusal to accept the responsiblity of wrongful acts cuases history to repeat itself. Reparations are due to Native americans (start by honoring the treaties signed), African americans, we are talking about stolen people on stolen land the negative Karma of this is immeasurable. If every living ancestor of slaves were given a million dollars and free travel for ten years it woud still be less then the money paid to bail out banks, a drop in the bucket compared to the false war against Irag.
American slaves and slave holders are all long dead now. There is really no point in having descendant of slave holders apologize to descendants of slaves. The people who owned slaves should apologize to former slaves, but that's a bit difficult to do now since they are all dead. People are responsible for their own actions, not the actions of their ancestors.
Kevin that would be a fine sentiment if you didn't have people like dxironman showing just one of the many lingering issues so ingrained into our society.
dxironman banned, first day racism - 'spear-chuckers'.
Great! Now if only Japan could follow its lead and apologize to just about every Asian country for its former atrocities during their militaristic era.
The Indonesian Government could take a clue from this and apologize for the massacre in 2000 both on the Island of Timor and massacre that same year of thousands of Christians on several eastern Indonesian Islands.
a little late, wouldn't one think! when I was 6 I broke a window and now that I'm 60 I want to apologies
It's so funny to read some of the things here- Most of you don't want to think about the 90 food supply in this country-food stops and see how fast all of you loose your high moral standard- you'll be aminals just like the rest of us. Deep down that's what we are- we just have better ways to kill oursleves thas all. And for those of you who don't know its easy to kill someone- our teenagers kill each other every day with no problem.