And the US is not blamed for it yet?

We blew up several wedding parties in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we said "oops".

Two ways to look at it: If the PKK wasn't operating as a terrorist organization, using smuggling routes occupied by Kurds just trying to make a living, Turkey wouldn't have been looking at that region at all. So it's the PKK's fault

The one who has the greater technology and capabilities has the greater responsibility to ensure accuracy and that the intelligence is true. Turkey appears to have rushed to judgement. It's Turkey's fault.

While turkey did genocide the christain armenians in its borders, we only have the Kurds words that these where not the droids they where looking for. Everytime a black guy gets shot by cops in the US they are always protrayed as angels.

They were smugglers. Unless that is a legitimate job in Turkey they should have all burned.

Morgs, it's a very different world for the Kurds. Look at what they are smuggling:

Smuggling is an important source of income for locals in provinces along the Iraqi border, with many villagers involved in bringing fuel, cigarettes and other goods from Iraqi villages on the other side of the border.

If I had to place blame between the smugglers and the PPK, I'd blame the PPK for using known smuggling routes.

And you know, I keep get this nagging thought needling in my brain: what exactly do they mean by "smuggling"?

What is being omitted from the reporting of Kurdish civilians (smugglers-cigarettes,gasoline etc- all under 30 yrs of age) mass killing by Turkey's air force - is the sad fact that it is the 4 Predator drones given by DoD/US to Turkey -all 'unarmed= w/o missiles - and remote controlled by US forces in US/NV who fly them. Who is the interpretor of the drone images- US or Turkey. This is the state set eradication program against Kurds- whether in Turkey or Iraq or EU. Turkey's PM Erdogan and his g'ment's list of 'enemies of the state' keeps expanding. The Kurds- the Armenians,the Syriacs (Christians from Assyria)-Israel- France,Greece and Cyprus Greeks.

mimi, this didn't look like an attempt at "state set eradication", or perhaps a better word would be "genocide". There may have been some back room discussions that "PPK or smugglers, an airstrike would be of beneift to us either way." However, it is a bad, bad time to be found engaging in genocide.

The considerations are few, but I'm willing to go with the scenario that they got some photos from their unmanned drones, and said, "This is that" when in fact, it wasn't. They misread the photos, or the PPK had passed by the time the F-16s got there, and what was there were smugglers.

Are they any more dangerous that our own military? It seems as if we're constantly killing civilians and apologizing after the customary 3 weeks of denial.

Agreed sandtrich...and the arm of our military reaches a bit farther than theirs, as well.

200grand...

No offense but whose rule are you speaking of? Turkey's??

Wouldn't you agree we have our noses in far too many military skirmishes around the world? We are not the world's police department even though we like to act like we are. I'm all for defending ourselves but we are going on the offensive more and more. When is the last time congress declared war and how many have we been in since?

They are in NATO, right?

I agree 200 these D Bags don't deserve to live in this country. You a holes should go live with the Kurds in Iraq. Then you can all complain about our military together!

So Rob,

How many countries should we occupy that would make you happy? Last I heard, we were in some 130. I believe there are only @170 total. Maybe we should simply invite ourselves to the other 40 whether they want us or not...

alwaysanother...I have no problem defending ourselves but far too often these days, we are the aggressor. We have become a military machine and depend on these "skirmishes" to invigorate our economy. It's far too easy for presidents to go off half-cocked with executive orders and not follow the rule of law. I'll ask again...when is the last time we declared war and how many have we been in since?

I prefer Teddy Roosevelt's theory...

"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

We seldom speak softly and our stick has been getting smaller and smaller.

I always wonder how many of these naysayers ever spent a minute in our military defending there

right to speak out. Just wondering.

I always wonder how many war mongers out there understand you can attract more flies with honey than vinegar. No one likes a bully...and in many ways, that's what we've become. I believe we'd do ourselves a favor and spend a lot less time worrying about the rest of the world and concentrate our efforts right here. Quit spending trillions to maintain bases all around the world...bring our troops home, invest the $$ in bases here, and protect ourselves from the inside out...

Funny but sad...we borrow money from China and give it to our enemies. Then we build weapons to protect us from...uhhh, countries like...China?

Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

garp.....none.

Still waiting...

When was the last time congress declared war on another country? How many "wars" have we been in since? What does the Constitution say about going to war? Who or what body of our government can declare war?

It's really quite simple...the founding fathers had it correctly figured out. We just conveniently quit following the rules some time ago...

I told all of the Newsvine Posters before that there were those like sandtrich, cantakenomore, et al, that would be praising shooting of the Soldier at California.

And yet, they (sandtrich, cantakenomore, et al) refuse to admit that it is the US Politicians, that they hired, as the US Civilian Control Over the US Military that Orders the US Military to accomplish the US CIVILIAN STRATEGIC GOALS, mostly the Standard of Living.

I previously told all of you before about what was happening between the Kurdistanis and the US Ally Turkey, and most of you said NO.

And I told you about the very large Islamic Jihadist Training Camp at the AutonomousKurdistan Region, as supported by Fundamentalist Islamic Iran with Iranian Military Advisers, Iranian Military Trainers, Weapons, Munitions, Funds, etc.. That when the US Ally Turkey 2010 stated attacking the over hundreds of thousands of the Islamic Jihadist fled:Hamas Foreign Fighters, many of the Islamic Jihadist Palestinian Fighting Groups, Hamas Foreign Fighters, Hezbollah to Palestine as the "Peace Floatilla"; Afghan Al Quada and Taliban, accompanied by the Pakistanis Taliban, Army of Islam Pakistan (not the Pakistani Military) going by the southern Old Silk road into Afghanistan and Pakistan (destabilization of the the US Ally Pakistani Government);Muslim Brotherhood to Egypt to Overthrow the US Ally President of Egypt; Al Quada Yemen to Yemen to Overthrow US Ally President of Yemen; Libyan Islamic Fighting Group to Overthrow US Ally Gaddaffi (don't laugh, President's Executive Intelligence Agency's, CIA,Prisoners at Gaddaffi's Prisons). This is the so called "Arab Spring", "Egyptian Revolution", "Libyan Revolution", etc.. This is what the Iranian Military Trained them to do, as Asymmetric Warfare, get others to fight for their Cause(s), by starting Demonstrations, Protests and escalating into a Civil War (Overthrow of a Established Government, especially US Allies.); takes one to recognize one, we (US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces) are trained to cause the Overthrow of an Enemies Government.

I also previously posted on Newsvine about the Kurdistanis being the Armed Allies of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran since the Iran Iraq Wars, when we (US Military Training Teams) were sent to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars, later rotated to Pakistan/Afghanistan to trained the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen to defeat the USSR 40th Army Occupation during Operation Cyclone, AND NO we did not train Osama Bin Laden who was still living with his rich Relatives at Saudi Arabia forming the new Islamic Jihadist Group, Al Quada, to fight against the US Ally Saudi Government and the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers as a Fundamentalist Islamic Organization, and starting to plan the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing. And we did NOT train the 1990s Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, as trained and supported by Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, that massacred the 20,000 to 50,000 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen.). I also mentioned how we were later redeployed from Afghanistan to Northern Iraq to live with the Kurdistanis to gain their Trust, organize them to fight the Iraqis Military, as Operation Hotel California, shortly after US Congress Declared War With Iraq with the 2002 Iraqi War Resolution, based on US Law H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" (Justification Weapons of Mass Destruction (Clinton NOT Bush); before being sent back here we went to US Ally Turkey to get refresher training in Asymmetric Mountain Warfare and get acclimatized to high altitudes (same conditions as here, Pamir Mountains Afghanistan), we were actually fighting the Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK;and yet most Newsvine Posters would rather believe crap written by Non Participants based on nonsense of other non participants, instead of those that were/are actually involved as the "Boots on the Ground".

Oh, yes, forgot, the Al Quada Syria, increases activities at Syria. The Iraqis Al Quada makes sure the US leaves (President Obama fails to negotiate immunity of US Military from Iraqis Prosecutions), result 2010 US and US Allies lose the Iraqis Oil to Iran's Allies the Chinese and Russian Federation; US Ally Saudi Arabia is now surrounded by Enemies, as stated before, President Obama's2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy, allowed Iran to do anything without US Intervention, including the Increases of their Military 2009-2011, 2010 deployment of Land Based Long Ranged Supersonic Anti Ship Missile Batteries to control the Shipping at the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman (to stop the Saudi, Kuwaitis, Oil Supertankers to the US and US European Allies, making Libyan Oil of Strategic Importance to the US European Allies.), so now you have the problem 2011 of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran's possible closure of the Strait of Hormuz, that I previously warned all of you about.

The Results, of President Obama's 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy, Fundamentalist Islamic Iran gains: 1. Egypt: Prior to the "Egyptian Revolution" the Muslim Brotherhood negotiates with Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, Iran gets: a Egypt, Strategic Access to the Suez Canal., b. Egyptian Mediterranean Ports to strike against the Crusaders (Europeans)., c. Closer locations to destroy US Ally Israel., d. Overthrow of US Ally President of Egypt, etc.; 2. Yemen: a. Increased support of the Islamic Jihadists Training Camps at Yemen after President Obama turned his back on US Ally President of Yemen by withdrawing covert US Military support., b. Overthrow of US Ally President of Yemen., c. Increased Terrorist Activities at southern Saudi Arabia., c. Fundamentalist Islamic Iran's Strategic access to the Ports at Yemen., etc.; 3. Iran: Deployment of the Land Based Long Range Supersonic Anti Ship Missile Batteries (including at the Iranian Islands) to kill the Economiesof US Ally Saudi Arabia, and US Ally Kuwait., e. Increased Chinese and Russian Federation Support., f. 2010 Purchase of North Korean copies of Chinese copies of USSR SS-18 ICBMs as shipped thru Bejing China., g. Iran's Ally Qatar negotiates with the Libyan Rebels for the Libyan Oil to be sold to the Chinese., h. Fundamentalist Islamic Iran negotiates with the Afghans so that the Chinese get the Afghan Mineral Rights, especially the High Tech Minerals required for US High Tech, Chinese then place sanctions on the exports to the US, so all US High Tech must be "Made In China"., i. Increased Iranian "Sphere of Influence", throughout the "Middle East", Africa, Asia, and some of the former USSR Nations., j. General McChystal (Democrat as appointed by President Obama), one of the few knowledgeable and experienced in Asymmetric Warfare receives his Letter of Reprimand for stating Fundamentalist Islamic Iran's providing Training, Funds, weapons, munitions, etc. to the Islamic JihadistsWorldwide based on captured weapons, ammunition, funds, Islamic Jihadists, etc.; as General McChrystal's Statement is against President Obama's2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy.

This will be Generation Y's problems in the short term future to fix. As in less than 7 months (minus one month for Debriefings and After Action Reports (years of consecutive tours worth, minus a few weeks for Outprocessing and Retirement Briefings), my men, women, myself will be "Too Old" for any more Involuntary Recalls to Active Duty to fix all the F**k ups of the US Politicians you hired, as always occurs during our over 20, 30 year US Military Careers, and these US Politicians (All Parties) do not give a f**k after they leave Office (US Civilian (Politicians) Control Over the US Military). So do not call on us as most of us are now Grandparents ever again; eventhough, due to the President Clinton Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military eliminated our Replacements that take decades to train and gain operational experience (reason that the average age is 35 after starting training at age 18 to 20, of course that is without the mandatory Language(s) and Cultural Education based on Regions of Operations (about 8 years, example: Bachelors Arabic, Bachelors Islam)).

So, Generation X and Generation Y this is soon to be your problems to own (of course you can ignore this warning, just do not b!tch at us if you have to live like an Average Afghan (no electricity, no high tech, no indoor plumbing, etc.), as the Chinese replace the US as a "Superpower" by 2015 and obtain (obtained) all the World's Resources that previously maintained the US Civilians Standard of Living and Life Style.

hmmmm, I just read a post damn near as long as "war and peace" but still no one wishes to answer my original question. It's OK, though...picking and choosing which parts of the Constitution you wish to abide by has been commonplace for the past 50+ years. No need to concern ourselves with that old, worn-out piece of hemp anyway...

It's people like morgs, rob16,stevaae & 200grand that scare the pi-- out of me! With those macho attitudes & vicious,racist remarks! I understand that this is a hot topic but the remark "they all should have burned! " Really ? They were human beings! That kind of attitude is the exact reason all this fighting will never stop. Who has the most power? who knows better than the next person--The whole world seems to be in a pi-- ing contest !! What did this article have to do with blacks? NOTHING! Why should those people have burned? We have no idea if they were innocent or guilty of anything! Time to tone down the rhetoric. Everone is entitled to their opinion here but how about some civility? I tend to agree mostly with alwaysanother with the exception of his harsh words towards cantakeanymore for their opinon. Just because someone has a difference of opinon doesn't neccsarily make them "half-witted. You both make valid points but as I said I reall feel AT is who I would agree with for the most part. He expressed most of how the situation really is though more & more people would like it to be not so.The end. ( I do tend to ramble but I have alot of thoughts on these things )

alwaysanother...

1. There are none...we call ourselves.

2. I am not against Guantanamo...I suspect Obama see the value in keeping terrorist out of our country and held by the military, not state run institutions.

3. There should be no world policemen...however, if we are attacked, we have every right to defend ourselves.

4. America's friends change daily. Usually, we feel we can buy friendship and find out we are being stabbed in the back by the same people we are trying to befriend. However, to answer your question, I would say, Israel, most of Europe (although getting less and less the more muslims move there), Canada, Tiawan, and a handful in S. America.

5. If Iran attempts to stop shipping in the straits...we and a lot of others will ensure safe passage. By them attempting to block is an act of war and we should treat it as such...by the Constitution!

BTW, I am not a democrat by any stretch of the imagination. I usually vote republican but went Libertarian last election. I consider myself a conservative but do not agree with sticking out our chest to the rest of the world. We are far too indebted to others and cannot afford to keep up the pace. Something has to give and if you look where the lions share of our resources are spent, it's with the military. Yes, we kicked arse in WWI, WWII but since then, we've been on a slippery slope.

Regardless, you should refrain from the name calling and generalizations, makes your position a bit weaker.

Mamabear21...thanks! Happy New Year to Ya!

@ David -- TMI ! How do you know so much & why don't you go into politics? Besides, how are we peasants to

know that everything you are saying is so? Can you understand that with all that info I lost what your point was?

alwaysanother...

Teddy Roosevelt stated "Speak softly and carry a big stick"

I agree with that statement. I do not agree wars should be started without congressional approval. It makes it too easy and convenient when you start defining what a war really is...too many lawyerisms. It's either a war or it's not a war. In my opinion, when the bullets start to fly, it's a war. I do, however, believe if you go to war with approval and kick arse...you should take the spoils, such as the oil (if we would have declared war).

Now look at what happened. We went to war, spent trillions, they still have bombings, the infrastructure we built for them is being systematically destroyed, all the oil permits went to China, Russia, and France, and most of the people still hate us. Great deal, eh?

alwaysanother...

We can keep the straits open...we have the ability and support from countries with similar interests. However, we cannot stop them from obtaining nukes. How many countries have we tried to stop? Have we been very successful? We cannot keep our finger on the pulse of the world that tightly.

As far as the oil, I'd like to see us develop our own resources and tell the towel-heads to drown in theirs. I'd much rather go into a joint venture with Canada or develop shale oil...there are answers without having to fire a bunch of cruise missiles at them first. And again, if they wish to fight us, we declare war and wipe them off the map. If some other nation is firing at us, congress should act. If they do not, they'll face problems in the following election. This is the way it's supposed to work...

mamabear21 - @ David -- TMI ! How do you know so much

From Firsthand Experience ever since being on the US Military Training Teams to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars. As far as TMI (Too Much Information), things are not as simple as a one liner Twit of Twitter.

mamabear21 - & why don't you go into politics?

Because I refuse to suck the penises of those that would pay for the near Billion USDs Campaigns.

mamabear21 - Besides, how are we peasants to know that everything you are saying is so?

Just look at the Dates, US Military Operations, US Laws that I mentioned, aka the Facts that most will not know about unless they were involved (their own lives at risk, gets very personal interest at that point to know who, what, where, when, why, how, etc.).

mamabear21 - Can you understand that with all that info I lost what your point was?

Clarification of the Facts from Firsthand Experience and Surviving the Life or Death School of Hard Knocks (Training and Education is just so that you can survive to gain Experience, more Experience means a higher chance of Survival). Maybe, just maybe, Generation X and Generation Y will not Repeat the Same Mistakes and Expect a Different Result. As those Mistakes cost many lives.

Most of us, that have been here (Afghanistan) for years of consecutive tours and previously Iraq for years of consecutive tours, as well as many of the other Nations, do not want to see our Grand children (Generation Y) having to endure the hardships that we have.

cantakenomore - We can keep the straits open...we have the ability and support from countries with similar interests.

I explained that about two years ago, as to what Fundamentalist Islamic Iran was doing after President Obama 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy that gave Iran Carte Blanche to do anything they wanted to, without US Interventions.

Even with the 5th USN Fleet, that cannot be done. As by using the Iranian Oil Wealth they bought the current Generation Weapons Technology (some stolen US High Tech also, that has not even been manufactured for the US Military yet) from the Chinese and Russian Federation.

I have been watching Iran because my "Middle East" Qualification First Middle East Language was Farsi. Because of this, eventhough, I am not directly related to the US Intelligence Agencies Iranian Desk, I get things shoved in my face by their so called "Experts", that do not even know Farsi and Islam, little or no training and experience in Nuclear Weapons, Missiles, Air Defense, etc. and they want my "opinion" (do their f**king work for their overpaid expensive arses).

This is why when certain other Newsvine Posters (supposedly, knowledgeable, GSs, DOD Civilians, etc.) posted some baloney, I posted what I knew (not from the books or internet) about the Iranian Land Based Long Range Supersonic Anti Ship Missile Batteries. And how they protect them with the current Generation Russian Federation S-300 Anti Aircraft Missile Batteries, and the current Generation S-400 ABM Batteries (It was the S-400 that detected the US Generation V Stealth RQ-170). The S-300 and S-400 Missiles are intergrated to include Short range air defense missiles, as well as anti aircraft "guns" and even countermeasures.

It is very sad to say it is these GSs, SESs, DOD Civilians, etc. that have the US Civilian Control of the US Military via the US Politicians that listen to them and refuse to listen to the "Boots on the Ground" (Those conducting Special Reconnaissanceto obtain the information, and independently verify the US Intelligence Agencies information). I had one particular Army US Civilian attempting to dispute what I previously posted, talking about "Swarming the Iranian Defenses", "Use of Airstrikes", "Use of Cruise Missiles", etc. as what was normally stated in Command and General Staff College and War College as Conventional Warfare Cold War Era Tactics and Strategies; that are not applicable to the current situation at the Persian Gulf.

He stated he had access to Classified, so I referred him to the classifed videos that I got shoved into my face, pertaining to the Iranian Land Based Long Range Supersonic Anti Ship Missiles (NOT the same as the limited size and limited weight ship launched version, the size and weight being significant limits to the capabilities). To shut him up I would really liked to have posted the Classified (I don't know why) Information as to how the Iranians are obtaining the Long Range (x,xxx nm) at mach xx speeds, with target detection capabilities (x,xxx nm) over the horizon (without using aircraft, satellites, etc.), there is the unclassified that these Missiles were specifically designed to defeat the USN Countermeasures and evade the USN Screening Ships to kill USN Aircraft Carriers (just beyond the USN Aircraft Range (without mid air refueling) and USN Cruise Missile Range. The video showed the test firing of one of these Missiles, 2010, successfully detected and destroyed a Iranian target Boat that was in the area that a USN Aircraft Carrier would have to be to launch an airstrike against Irans Outer Air Defenses, and then another test 2011, with the same results; 2010 is when the US Ally Saudi Arabia started pleading for US and Israelis Military Intervention (maybe the Saudis saw the same video), President Obama turned his back on US Ally Saudi Arabia as against his 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy. There used to be an unclassified map of the locations of the Iranian Anti Ship Missile Batteries and the Iranian Anti Aircraft Batteries on the Internet, I checked it is gone.

What most US Civilians do not realize is that what I am talking about is 2009, 2010, 2011 Technology as being Manufactured 2009 to 2011. And NOT the 1990s US Technology manufactured as late as 2009. With the Chinese and Russian Federation still taking people out and executing them for Contract Defaults, Contract Disputes, Contract Fraud, Contract Delays, "Crimes Against the People", etc. so they get all of their Military Equipment on time, and with minimal failures, with them getting every Chinese Yuan or Russian Ruble's worth. This is what Fundamentalist Islamic Iran Bought using their Iranian Oil Wealth.

So after posting the Unclassifed Facts that I could, that GS Army Civilian started up with the name calling and attempted to discredit my previous and current US Military Service. That included his really hilarious, "just because you were trained and experienced on missiles does not make you an expert".

cantakenomore - As far as the oil, I'd like to see us develop our own resources and tell the towel-heads to drown in theirs. I'd much rather go into a joint venture with Canada or develop shale oil.

I previously, explained how the US High Grade Sweet Crude Oil was depleted during the "Black Gold Rushes" of the early 1900s. With the result being during the 1970s Oil Crisis the US using high sulfur content Oil, resulting in Acid Rain (sulfuric acid), with the Environmentalist stopping this.

I also explained how the UN, US Sanctions and Embargoes against Iraq prior to the First Gulf War, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Kuwait, etc. were buying cheap Iraqis Oil, claiming it was their own, then selling the cheap High Grade Sweet Crude Oil to the US as their own for huge Profits as "Oil Laundrying". To stop this "Oil Laundrying" many Scientists were demanding that Iraqis Oil be "Oil Tagged" with inexpensive chemicals, the Rich Oil Lobbyists put an end to that idea really quickly.

There was the anticipated loss of the Iraqis Oil resulting in the Canadians starting the expensive Enviromental Disaster of Strip Mining of Oil Sands and Oil Shale, processing tons of materials to get a few barrels of Oil. The Authorization of the Mexican Government to start more Deep Sea Oil Wells (identical to the BP Oil Spill). The President Obama Authorization of Oil Explorations of the North Atlantic, until the BP Oil Spill (Think about the conditions at the North Atlantic, same area that sunk the RMS Titanic). The Saudi Arabians start Deep Sand Desert Oil Exploration. The Kuwaitis brought on the Iraqis Invasion of Kuwait by Slant Drilling into the Southern Iraqis Oil Fields (An Act of War).

And when you say "Alternative Energy" that provides about 11% of the US Requirements, does that mean that 89% of US Citizens will have to do with electricity, fuel, etc.. How do you replace Oil Based Plastics without insects and animals eating corn based plastics as well as durability. Oil based insecticides, oil based cosmetics, electrical wires, etc..

David...

Damn...guess no one else need post...you have already explained to us all everything we need to know! My sincere apologies if I don't buy everything you say, however...

BTW, I never once mentioned alternative energy...just producing our own from the fossil fuels we have.

Heavy Artillery Rocker

FYI:

Kurdistanis are Indo Europeans, Shiites, Language Kurdistanis version of Farsi. Kurdistanis Goal the Formation of Kurdistan, consisting of Northern Iraq, Southern Turkey, part of Iran, part of Syria. The Armed Allies of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran since the Iran Iraq Wars.

Iraqis are Arabs, Sunnis, Language Arabic. As Sunnis "Moderate", "Westernized", "Tolerant", "Modern" versus Shiites as Fundamentalist Islam. This is and was the Reason for the Centuries Old disputes (Wars) between the Sunnis and Shiites.

Shiites at Iraq, most as Illegal Aliens fled to Southern Iraq from Iran generations ago. Persians, Shiites, Language primarily Farsi near the Iran Iraq Borders. These Shiites hired by the Iraqis as cheap labor on the Southern Iraqis Oil Fields.

This is why ever since my "Middle East" Qualified, First Middle East Language Farsi, I could talk with the Shiites at Iraq, and the Kurdistanis, without seeming to be one of the "Oppressor" Iraqis by speaking to them in Arabic. (If you do not know what I mean, go to Southern California, and not speak Espanol). This is why the British SAS that only knew Arabic had such a hard time at Basra, since they were seen as siding with the Iraqis and against the Shiites at Iraq, to the extent of the Brits being attacked and killed by the Shiites at Basra Iraq. You would have thought that the Brits would have known better, since Iraq was a former British Colony. This is also why during Operation Hotel California I could speak with the Kurdistanis (Kurdistanis Version of Farsi).

Really stup!d the Western Idea that just because people live at a Nation that they are all of that Nation, especially when those Nation's Boundaries, the Nation's themselves were created or eliminated based on lines arbitarily drawn on maps by the Western Nations.

What's wrong with establishing an independent Kurdish state? The Kurds are not a second class people. If there is Palestine there should also be Kurdistan.

the problem with kurdish state is they are trying to occupy a land that does not belong to them...hey they can always go back to their country such as iraq, syria, and iran... i dont see them trying to make a kurdish state there..and the people who got killed are smugglers... Turkey is a great ally and a great place to live i ve been there.. so to all you ignorant d bags.. educate yourself before you talk..or go see with your own eyes.. they are dealing with terrorist and by mistake they have killed smugglers in their borders...US military has killed 100,000 iraqs yet we talk about other nations. i am sick of my tax money being spent on stupid wars and stupid individuals that make up this bs.

I'm with Brian. You can't even begin to defend our "pre-emptive" strike on Iraq and then blame the Turks, who have been attacked from this quarter before. You can't have it both ways.

dman,

You are correct about what has lead up to this conflict. A couple things seem strange though. Why would you have to smuggle things like diesel fuel from Iraq into Turkey? Is this suggestive that the Turkish government isn't making fuel available to its border region villages? Are they trying to make life tough on their own Kurdish population? Seems like the smuggling issue would be easy to solve if you took care of your own people.

The other thing of interest is the use of the drones. Some years back, the US was leasing Predator drones to Turkey under joint operation with US pilots/operators. I know the Turks were trying to buy their own from the US. I just wonder if these were Turkish owned or joint operation leased drones involved and US operators. Seems like a skilled operator could recognize smugglers. Seems kind of like a decision was made that classed these people as being up to no good whether it was terrorism or smuggling. Were they smuggling to support terrorists resident in Turkey? If smugglers or terrorists, wouldn't it be possible to intercept them when they crossed the border? Lots of things about this appears to be only part of the story.

We need to be a bit cautious about jumping to conclusions as I think there is a lot of information not revealed in the article.

They are dealing with terrorists and by mistake kill some smugglers. Sounds like a never-mind mistake, but smuggling in that part of the world is almost a necessity and actually takes a burden off the government. The bottom line is that Turkey really doesn't care. They were killed in Kurd territory and that is all that matters. Turkey admits that they didn't know for sure. I thought that the U.S. was the only country practicing Cowboy Politics. Shoot now and let God sort them out. Some allies we have.

dman-353357 - The increased intensity of this conflict is one of the unintended consequences of the Iraq invasion 8 years ago.

1NewDay - dman, You are correct about what has lead up to this conflict.

Nice failed attempt at the Blame Game. This crap started long before, 8 years ago, ever since the Europeans drew the lines on the maps that eliminated many of these Nations, and gave the smaller Nations to the Persians, Ottoman Empire, and Arabs.

This is why the Observations based on Firsthand Experience of T.E. Lawrence were such a big surprise to the British. And do not give me that "Gay", "Homo Sexual" crap, his observations were/are still valid, as to why I required my men, women to read his observations.

1NewDay,

As far as the RQs, and MQs, go look at Jane's Defense, Global Security, etc. and NOT Wikipedia (Wikipedia Disclaimer of Validity); the Turks have been manufacturing their own after 2010.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=181670

David,

You are of course right that many of the region's issues started when outsiders drew the borders and divided up the region. But I do believe that some of the recent flare ups are associated with the US invlovement in recent years, starting back after the gulf war when we provided the no fly zone coverage to the Kurdish region in Iraq. That kept Saddam out of their hair and probably encouraged them to seek independence. To the best of my knowledge, we pretty much stayed out of that region during the Iraq war. You probably know better because of your background, but the region got little attention in the press during the Iraq war.

You would think that if logic prevailed, all the borders could use a little adjustment today based on reality vs. the misguided mistakes of years past. I suspect that might be difficult to do as nobody is anxious to give up something in their current borders.

Good article link regarding the drones. I knew that we had the lease deal with Turkey several years back, but hadn't heard any update. Weren't we at one time running supply convoys from Turkey into Iraq, but then got into some disagreement over the Kurds and politics? I was thinking the Predator deal was somehow tied into that. At any rate, do you know if we are completely out of it now or do we still have Predator units flying under joint command? I suspect there has probably been a lot going on in the Kurdish region during the Iraq war, but it didn't seem to hit the mainstream media. If you have any insight into that, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Missena, I've always been fascinated by Turkey, both for its long cultural history and for being one of the few democratic states in that region. I also am taking no sides in the Kurdish nationalist movement.

But death as a penalty for smuggling, and not for smuggling any dangerous substance?

What do the Turkish police do with speeders on the nation's highways, have them dig their own graves and then shoot them?

Well now they know not to smuggle through *that* area.

But seriously, smuggling through a region known for terrorist movements? You're just asking to be mistaken for terrorists.

We all have our own borders to worry about and protect!

Did Turkey not do these to Armenians?

Why is Turkey, slowly falling into the trap of a radical Islamic nation, taking sides in Syria? When you do it, it is OK and when others do it, it is bad!

A new opportunity for militants. "I am only a smuggler and all I have is fertilizer and diesel fuel... whats your problem...."

"I am only a smuggler and all I have is fertilizer and diesel fuel... whats your problem...."

Now thats funny, so funny I just have to show my laughter, hahahaha, I like it, goooood one billoooo!

MSNBC has two different photos posted for this story. If you look carefully, you'll see men in both photos wearing military clothing, mostly camouflage. It seems an oxymoron to wear military coats, yet claim not to be a militant.

Turkey supports a homeland/state for Palestinians but not the Kurds? Well there's democracy and then there is democracy i guess. BTW the largest ethnic group without a state is the Kurds.

Just for those that don't know fertilizer , & deisel fuel along with a few other things can make explosives. You remember the fertilizer bom at OK fed building.

dman-353357

In that region, terrorist population is very high and terrorists always pretend that they are not terrorists. The local people know that military killed many terrorists in the region just a few weeks ago. I just ask myself; " If I was one of the local people, would I pass the border where many terrorists were killed a couple weeks ago? " ??????? I would say no! Life is not cheap and believe me the reason why they were killed is more than smuggling.

Jonathan-1982062

Turkey is not taking sides in Syria. Politics is more than just taking sides. It is being a pragmatist.

Missena - dman-353357 - In that region, terrorist population is very high and terrorists always pretend that they are not terrorists.

The current Main Islamic Jihadist Training Camp is at the Autonomous Kurdistanis Region. After the US started redeploying us from Afghanistan to Yemen to conduct US Military Asymmetric Warfare by surgically striking the Islamic Jihadists Training Camps at Yemen. The Autonomous Kurdistanis Region being right next door to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran decreased the Logistics problems for Iran to support the Main Islamic Jihadist Training Camp (hundreds of thousands of Islamic Jihadists from all over the World.).

My advice to the Kurdistanis that we lived with during 2002-2003 Operation Hotel California, STOP training and arming your men, women and children. Be happy with the Autonomous Kurdistanis Region, half the Oil Wealth of Iraq (Northern Iraqis Oil Fields) and the Iraqis Water Park (amusement park). If you continue these actions, Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK and hosting the Main Islamic Jihadist Training Camp, someone will take all of this away from you.

This is why when the American Tourists (Hikers) went to the Autonomous Kurdistanis Region, deserved what happened to them, more than likely turned in by the Kurdistanis to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran for rewards. Note: Do any of you know what is located at Northern Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, visable from where the Hikers were caught as well as visable from the Southern part of the Old Silk Road (Northern Iraq, Northern Iran, Northern Afghanistan). The US Hikers were lucky they were not executed on the spot.

Life is not cheap and believe me the reason why they were killed is more than smuggling.

Which, Missena, is not even a claim being made by the Turkish government, at least not as yet.

From the story:

Security sources said those killed were carrying canisters of diesel on mules and their bodies were found on the Iraqi side of the border.

I'd admit that it is reckless to conduct smuggling operations in what is essentially an undeclared war zone. But smugglers frequently take such risks.

So, I still find your original words unsupportable:

If they did not smuggle, they would not be dead now.

Whatever the security issues may be facing Turkey, and however unavoidable such incidents may be, we should never dismiss the fate of those killed as some kind of rough justice.

Sir: We have to consult UN, human rights groups and others before we classify.

Even "sovereignty" is becoming a big issue when it comes to Muslim nations.

When some infidel nation attacks a Muslim nation, it is infringement of sovereignty.

When an Islamic terrorist trained in Pakistan or some Muslim nation blows up infidels in an infidel’s nation, it is a religious duty!

When Muslims attack each other it is free for all! Then we use some new dictionary written from right to left!

Bill

They might have changed it since you posted. The headline I'm reading says: Turkish airstrike aimed at militants kills 35 Kurdish villagers.

No mention of smuggling....smuggling doesn't exactly make you innocent anyways.

Same reason the US' strikes are said to have killed insurgents, rather than innocent civilians.

Mike S.-2262427 - Bill - They might have changed it since you posted. The headline I'm reading says: Turkish airstrike aimed at militants kills 35 Kurdish villagers.

Go and get trained in Asymmetric Warfare (especiallyInsurgency and Counter Insurgency Warfare) then spend about a decade actually doing what you were trained to do, then come and talk to me. And if you want to talk about this situation, also learn Farsi so that you can talk with the Kurdistanis, Arabic or Turkish so that you can talk with the Turks, get a Bachelors Degree in Islam (including the current Islamic Laws) so that you can figure out why they do or do not do things.

Why do you think that the US Supreme Court Upheld part of President Obama's January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (plural) specifically the "Material Support To Terrorist Organizations" Section. Think of it this way if absolutely NO Kurdistanis supported the Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK, what would happen, if you cannot figure that out, think of what happened to Ernesto "Che" Guevara at Bolivia, with zero support of the Bolivian People.

One of the Strategic Asymmetric Warfare Goals is to gain Local, National, International support for your Cause(s). This does include causing actions that will get the "innocent" killed by the Enemy (later adverse News Media against your Enemy). By doing this successfully you decrease the Tactical Local Support, Strategic National Support, and Strategic International Support of your Enemy. During the Psychological Phase of Asymmetric Warfare you would start broadcasting that the Established Government is led by a Tyrant, Dictator etc. that is Oppressing His People (even if the majority are NOT his people); if this does not work then you escalate your activities to create violent reactions of the Established Government, this then becomes Tyrant, Dictator, etc. Masscring or Killing His Own People. The object of this is again to have the People Support and Fight for you against the Enemies Government, the best to use for this would be the Illegal Aliens of that Nation denied that Nations Citizens Rights, example: Per US Law H.R.4655, "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" we were sent to Iraq to hire thousands of Shiites (previously from Iran as Illegal Aliens) as assassins and insurgents to overthrow President Hussein. If you do not like the Results after the Enemy Established Government is Overthrown then you hijack the Revolution, example: The Iranian Student Revolution hijacked by Fundamentalist Islam. Asymmetric Warfare is also Borderless, example: Al Quada Saudi Arabia (AQ), Al Quada Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), Al Quada Syria (AQS), Al Quada Yemen (AQY), Hezbollah, Al Quada Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), etc. all going to Libya to start the Demonstrations and Protests, and seize Gaddaffi's 60 bunker Hight Razma facility on the eastern outskirts of Benghazi and a 35 bunker facility on the eastern outskirts of Ajdabiyah, and Military Bases before the start of the Civil War. As Strategic Goal of the Islamic Jihadist was to get the 20,000 shoulder launched anti aircraft SA-7 missiles to shoot down Commercial Airlines, after all the failed bomb attempts. Another example: The Islamic Jihadists buying the Services of the Mexican Drug Lords (Smuggling, Human Trafficking, Weapons, Money Laundrying, Safe Locations at US, Document Forgery, Identification Theft, Intelligence, etc.), the US Gangs of the Mexican Drug Lords as "Enforcers" and Drug Distributors, the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens at the US either paid to cooperate or the US Gangs force them to cooperate.

This is why Conventional Warfare has been a Historical Automatic Loser Against Asymmetric Warfare. 3% of US Military is Asymmetric Warfare, US Military is 1/2 of 1% of US Citizens, with 92% of US Citizens NEVER Serving in the US Military.

Do you get the picture now?

Yeah and maybe if we did not marginalize Mexicans we wouldn't have Los Zetas? Everyone has the right to protect their border and really does not matter the circumstances. Good for them.

Everyone does have the right to protect their borders, that is not under debate, these are citizens of turkey, SMUGGLING in fuel and other goods that they cannot get from their own country. You are comparing two completely different things, illegal immigrants bringing in illegal drugs is no where close to citizens going to another nation just to get gas to power cars and houses as well as other goods. You cannot say that circumstances do not matter when circumstances are everything, you cannot compare our border, where illegal substances are being brought over by non citizens and this incident where the Turks mistook citizens smuggling in goods that this article makes a point of mentioning is an important part of life for these people. There is only one reason to smuggle anything, it is either illegal or not provided on your side of the border, I highly doubt that gas is illegal in Turkey thus proving the region is underdeveloped which if this is due to neglect gives the Kurds the right to demand change.

I doubt they are smuggling fuel because they can't get it in Turkey. They smuggle it because they can get it very cheaply in Iraq, and don't pay the Turkish tax on it. Bob failed to mention another reason to smuggle is to make a profit. I agree the Kurdish region of Turkey is underdeveloped and deserves better treatment from Turkey's government, but don't assume the Kurds are blameless victims either.

I noticed they are smuggling in ingrediants used by Tim Mcvieh when he bom the OK Fed building. Also any smuggling lines would also be used for drugs.

They are far from blameless, dave, I never said they weren't, they have waged a civil war for 40 some years and they did not just target military targets, they targeted civilians many times as well. Even so my point was that this article makes a distinct difference between militants and smugglers, both illegal actions but smugglers being portrayed in a favorable light shows the attitude in the area that this is normal and necessary, its a job. My original point was that if a nations people are forced to smuggle in goods to meet their needs it is one of two things, A) they can not provide (which we all know Turkey can, or B) the region is underdeveloped and if this is simply because that the kurds inhabit the area then it is no wonder that the Kurds want change so badly.

The rest of this argument simply comes from zkysr's comment comparing everything I said to the American-Mexican border, where the situation is different and we will probably agree even more than on this topic (notice I did agree that a nation has a right to defend its own border, that was never under dispute)

The Kurds constitute a distinct ethnic group of 140 million people all with the same language, religion and customs. Their land is contiguous, but occupied by Turkey, Iran and Iraq. They are a real people who deserve a real country, unlike the Palestinians who already have Jordan, but want others land too. The idea that Turkey is in NATO is a disgrace. They are occupiers of Kurdistan and Cyprus. By the way we don't have Italians, Africans etc in America. We have Americans and people who don't belong here.

Charles is right, everyone has the right to defend their borders. Jeff go tell that to the native Americans.

@Jeff

so the Palestinians aren't a real people who don't deserve a real country? Get real...

Turkey and Israel are both sovereign states, but that doesn't mean that Kurds and Palestinians aren't real.

@ 482933

Uhm.. Kurds are real since they have a history, a culture and a language.. through their last names you can trace back their lineage.. none of that applies to Palestinians who are just random Arabs from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt.. Disagree? No problem - most Arab last names hint at the tribe or land they are from - take a few prominent "Palestinian" ones and tell me which ones refer to "palestine"

Charles the Hammerhead

Turkey is a soveriegn nation and have a right to defend their borders. There are Kurds in Iran, Turkey and Iraq. There are Italians in America and in Canada, there are also Germans, English and African. Imagine if they all suddenly wanted an independent homeland.

They do all have an independent homeland

Italians - Italy

Canadians - Canada

Germans - Germany

English - Britain

African - Africa

LOL sorry but that was just damn funny

Charles the Hammerhead - you need to learn a little more about history in that area before you talk non sense.

I won't buy American products if you try to force me to. Full employment will come when America is again competitive. High productivity comes from high quality tools and equipment, NOT from hard work. If people continue to demand higher taxes, then people will continue to take their money outside of America where the returns on their investments are higher, and taxes are lower. I personally no longer pay taxes in America. Other people will do the same thing and America will become poorer and poorer. I do not owe you a living.

Typical ignorant comment...these areas were Kurdish BEFORE the Turks migrated to Anatolia from Central Asia...educate urself before u attempt to justify genocide!!!

Haaahaa really? When did Kurds have a piece of land? Besides When did I use the word of Kurd ? I used the term of ''Terrorists'' you see?.. There are many innocent Kurds which are pushed to terrorism by PKK. But the innocent ones, what can they do on the borders if they re not terrorist? can you explain it? don't say that they re just smuggler. because they re absolutely not...!!

Your ignorance is astounding Peace.

Please Tell me what you re defending? Kurds or smugglers ? Swellsurfer ? My ignorance ha? I am sure you re not living with these terrorists all the time, in neighborhood, in busses, in streets everywhere.. We can not even choose who is innocent. They re coming to İstanbul or other big cities, making some preparations and going back to mountains..Killing soldier, attacking on the squares, streets, innocent people. Terrorists.. Do you know meaning of this term? we re living with this everyday. Any moment, they can attact to innocents. It is easy to speak from maybe USA or wherever.. But if you could live in Turkey, you wouldn't say that. There are many nations living in peace in Turkey like Circassian, or Laz.. have you heard about them ? they re not fighting for land. They re all our citizens. they re not trying to break the peace.. But Kurds, they have been trying to break the peace and land for almost 100 years. If you re not living in Turkey, you can't comment correctly..;)

Not at all like the Palestinians in that the Kurds are a real, distinct ethic group and the Palestinians are Jordanians or vica versa and got most of the land in 1948, while the Kurds get nothing.

djdjdrew201

Why don't you tell us how you really feel? Or is this the first chapter of a book you are writing?

djdrew201 - you forgot another fact not related to Kurds but Turks:

1915 - 1922 1.5 million Armenians killed by the hands of Turks. I hope you don't consider Armenians terrorists, especially 1.5 million of them.

youu idiott...you believe it because you want to believe it so... people who travel to Turkey know Turks.. know how Turkey is.. dont speak if you dont know any Turk...

Maybe Turkey shouldn't occupy Kurdistan, or Cyprus for that matter. They bitch and whine about Israel occupying Palestinian land, despite the fact it was originally Jewish land anyway and yet occupy the Kurd's land. Islam is the religion of hypocricy and the Turks, by electing an Islamist to lead their land have turned away from secularism and towards another riidiculous Islamic state.