He also had a copy of Mad Magazine opened on his table. Therefore we concluded the
CIA did it.

Well, it there was a copy of Mad Magazine on his table, they can be forgiven for concluding it was the CIA.

Right on. But Israel does not seem to listen or care. Some youth in Israel actually said they have rights owing to their position as a "chosen people". Sounds too much like Hitler's "superior race" to me.

Yes, jerri, over 70 countries COULD be wrong...including England, which exiled the Jews for the sake of religious unity...and would up with its own Catholics and Protestants killing each other instead.

LOL

Yes, I suppose they all could be wrong. But given the genocide of Palestinians and the theft of their land by Israelis.... well, probably not.

If it looks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck... it's hardly ever a kangaroo.

Jerri One could make the same argument about you. If it comments like a troll, sounds like a troll...It's hardly ever an intelligent person.

jerri,

"Given that throughout history they've been banned from nearly every country they've ever been in"

Yes, they have been banned from many countries, so what did they do? They went and established a country of their own because people like you did not want them in their countries. And now that they have a country of their own, people like you want to drive them out of it as well! You just never seem to get enough.

Yes, they have been banned from many countries, so what did they do? They went and established a country of their own because people like you did not want them in their countries.

ROFL

Child... you're a kid, right? God, I hope so. Child, they did not. The UN, run entirely by the USA at the time, took someone else's land and gave it to them, then financed them and gave them weapons far advanced of the weapons available to the people of the land that was stolen.

Rather like China giving California to Mexico, along with a few trillion dollars and a nuke or two.

They weren't satisfied with that, they want it all.

One could make the same argument about you. If it comments like a troll, sounds like a troll...It's hardly ever an intelligent person.

Right. Because anyone who doesn't agree with "the best person to ever live on earth" just has to be a troll.

Keep smokin'.

jerri,

"The UN, run entirely by the USA at the time, took someone else's land and gave it to them, then financed them and gave them weapons far advanced of the weapons available to the people of the land that was stolen."

Aside from the fact that your view of history is highly debatable, it's immaterial. You yourself said they were expelled from many nations. That much at least is correct. But the fact remains that now they have a country of their own, however obtained, and you want to drive them out of it as well just as your kind drove them out of all those other countries.

Iran has
proof the CIA killed its scientist.

Uhm huh....yadda yadda yadda.....and- what proof? WHERE is their proof? Yeah, that's what I thought. Goose egg. Zero. Zippo. Zilch. Nada.

What's Iran's
reasoning for NOT releasing such damming evidence.

Answer: they have none. Did THAT help you out? Next??????

If this were grade school,
Israel's report card would definitely be noted as "Doesn't play well with
others."

Hope teaching is NOT YOUR profession because if it is then you're no doubt in the firing line. Any sane parent would go straight to the Administrator's office to have a little chat about you. You have it all backwards.

A lot of people forget that in 1947, Israel was willing to give up 2/3 of the land west of the Jordan in exchange for peace and recognition. The Arabs said, "no" and attacked Israel the day after the region was released from British control.

In 2000 and 2001, the Palestinians were TWICE offered their own nation in the West Bank. Once again, they turned it down in favor on continued bloodshed. No Arab nation has voluntarily recognised Israel. The only ones who have recognised Israel, did so as part of an armistice.

Israel has always been willing to sincerely negotiate, the Arab nations do so only as a ruse to the West.

Pat,

You're right. I'm glad someone here at least knows something about the history of Israel. And the U.S. has also not always been the major supplier of weapons to Israel either. After the foundation of Israel, President Truman supported an embargo on military support for Israel. Israel at that time had many sources for its weapons, but its chief supplier of weapons was Czechoslovakia; not the U.S. The U.S. did not become a major supplier of military assistance until later as a result of the Cold War competition with the Soviet Union.

palestinians jordanians and the whole muslim world (who believe in each other)are wrong and isreal and the christian evengelicals (who believe each other are fundamentally wrong) are right.

right? thanks for clearing that up

wow pat .... the land that they had homes and farms on for generations,possibly the beginning of time, but was taken from them, and were offered a small part of the west bank., and they were not happy with that. what horrible people. I think that china should take your house and give it to an american indian but offer you a piece of the back yard to build your new home. but be wary ,they may need that part of the yard in twenty years and throw you out. then you may have to move again and build again, the good part of that is you are probably not a farmer. Try reading AND using common sense to analyze what you are reading for truth.

.

.

Pat you're seeming to forget that in 1947 the Israeli's had no land to give up. Jews owned very little of the land in Palestine and were a small minority of the population. You also fail to remember that the Arabs weren't promised 2/3 of the land. Under the partition plan the Jewish state would recieve 56% of the land, and that included the best agricultural areas. Why would the native Arab population that was large majority and had lived and worked the land for over a 1000 years give up more than half of their homeland to a small minority of the population that had no right to the land in the first place. Your veiw of history is totally warped.

1surrviivor,

"the land that they had homes and farms on for generations,possibly the beginning of time, but was taken from them, and were offered a small part of the west bank., and they were not happy with that. what horrible people."

Once again, you are wrong. Much of the land occupied by Israel at the time of its founding was legally sold to the Jews by its Arab owners.

Wow, I see the completely ignorant, anti-Israel trolls were at it early this morning. Oh well, lets educate them one by one:

@Irene:

Most Americans DO NOT SUPPORT Israel

Wrong!!! Here's the Gallup Poll: http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/support-israel-near-record-high.aspx

Not only do most Americans support Israel, but it isn't even close. More than 60% support Israel and less than 20% support Palestine. Further, American support for Israel is going up and support for Palestine is going down. Just because your clan leader tells you something, it doesn't make it true.

Israel is a nuclear country that doesn't want any other country to have nuclear power - too bad - there is a race for nuclear power because it is the only way a country can keep from being attacked, invaded and their resources plundered.

First, how do you know Israel is a nuclear country? Perhaps they're just pretending so that her neighbors aren't completely willing to start another war. If you do feel that Israel is a nuclear country, perhaps the best evidence you could use is Israel's relationship with South Africa, in which nuclear secrets may have been traded. Hardly Israel not wanting another country to have nuclear power. Israel is not a signatory to the NPT. On the other hand, Iran who is a signatory, is more than likely developing their own arsenal all the while telling Israel to destroy hers. Finally, Israel's nuclear arsenal hasn't been much of a deterent to aggression by her neighbors (i.e. Lebanon) and Israel has shown that they will not use nukes unless forced to.

It is Israel who is the most dangerous country, not Iran.

Right, how many Israeli citizens have been stoned to death? What country doesn't use the death penalty? How many US assets has Israel bombed since the 70's? and Iran? How many terrorist attacks has Israel committed on foreign soil? and Iran? How many American citizens have been held hostage by Israel? and Iran? What country do you think Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Jordan feel more threatened by Israel or Iran? How many internationally recognized terrorist organizations has Israel supported? and Iran? What rock have you been living under for the past 40 years?

Russia and China also see the truth and that is why they are not falling for the child's game of "Let's you and him fight"

Oh, so you'd rather follow the US's two biggest enemies rather than support our biggest ally? Perhaps you should move to China or Russia and see how well you and your ignorant opinions will be tolerated.

@1surviivor:

the country was taken from them and given to isreal, by the u.n. in what 48' and slowly over decades more has been taken (war of 67).

What country was taken? There never was a country called Palestine. There were plenty of Jews living amongst nomadic Arab tribes, it wasn't until the Jews accepted the partition plan that the nomads became so concerned with who owned what land first. If you showed me some sort of educated opinion on this, I might be willing to debate you further on it, but I realize it's just futile to try and inform those who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. Pick up a history book and actually do some research. Oh and 67, funny how when you start a war with another country and get your ass kicked there are consequences you'll have to pay.

we should give north america back to the american indians while we are at it,and let them tell us how to live

What's your point? Your comparing Israel to the Native Americans. Europeans came in and kicked the Native Americans out (or massacred them), then the US confined them to reservations. Not exactly the US's brightest moment in history. We probably should give back much more land to the Native Americans, but we are far too greedy to even think about it. This analogy works much better to support Israel.

Those who don't read the news are uninformed. those who do are misinformed

That's cause it's the news dude, all news is biased. The truly misinformed are those who don't bother to do any research. There are plenty of scholarly and historically true sources for accurate, unbiased information, if your too lazy to do your own research don't pretend to know what you're talking about. People in glass houses...

@fb#####: Neither the US nor Iran is completely innocent in this whole affair. While I do agree that the US has been responsible for some hostile activities against Iran, Iran has been equally aggressive. Those that think we are fighting with Iran because of our support of Israel, need to do some more research about the Cold War. The US's pressence in the M.E. has everything to do with the war between Capitalism and Communism, and little (or nothing) to do with US-Israel relations.

@Gina:

Kremlin Security Council head Nikolai Patrushev said Israel was pushing the United States towards war with Iran

If you think the Kremlin is a good source of information for this conflict, I suggest you move to Russia.

I'll be back for the rest of you at lunch...

"Ron Ben-Yishai, military analyst for Israel news website Ynet, reported that Washington's decision to delay the drill was partly related to financial concerns, noting that the US has cut its defense budget for 2012 by $450 billion dollars."

Since the total Defense Budget is about $500 Billion per year, I think that cut was a lot less than $450 Billion.

Israel considers Iran getting an atomic bomb a serious threat to their very existence, I have no doubt that they will strike Iran in the relatively near future.

The only question is 'Will it come before or after the 2012 elections in November?' Since they don't care for Obama, I suspect it will be right after the elections to avoid giving Obama a campaign issue.

@!$%#ing Israel wanting to be a safe and sovereign nation-how dare they expect to be allowed to exist in peace? Who do they think they are protecting themselves from a nuclear attack by a mad man who has publicly announced his desire to see them wiped off the map. Damn Jews asking to be left alone and to stop having those nice Palestinianboys shooting rockets into their neighborhoods killing their children-how inconsiderate of them. And what is with this being angry over kidnapping? What's a little kidnapping between friends? I can see how all the anti-Zionist goose stepping followers of MSNBC can hate Israel-how dare they be allowed to exist?

I am sure that the current administration will allow Israel to twist in the wind. America should honor its agreements and support our only allie in the region.

@lrene-you could not be more wrong most Americans and an overwhelming majority of Americans in uniform DO SUPPORT ISRAEL!!!!!!

Bob Olson - could be the true reason military exercse was cancelled US was angry at Mossad using fake US passports again to assasinate Iran nuke scientist - our jew controlled press will not report anit-Israel

'Israeli Mossad agents posed as CIA spies to recruit terrorists to fight against Iran'
Foreign Policy magazine cites CIA memos from 2007-2008 that the Mossad recruited members of
Jundallah terror group to fight against Tehran; U.S. was reportedly furious with Israel and moved to
limit joint intelligence programs. By Barak Ravid Tags: Iran nuclear Israel Mossad US

Israeli Mossad agents posed as CIA officers in order to recruit members of a Pakistani terror group to carry out
assassinations and attacks against the regime in Iran, Foreign Policy revealed on Friday, quoting U.S. intelligence memos.

Foreign Policy's Mark Perry reported that the Mossad operation was carried out in 2007-2008,
behind the back of the U.S. government, and infuriated then U.S. President George W. Bush.

Perry quotes a number of American intelligence officials and claims that the Mossad agents used American dollars
and U.S. passports to pose as CIA spies to try to recruit members of Jundallah, a Pakistan-based Sunni extremist
organization that has carried out a series of attacks in Iran and assassinations of government officials.

According to the report, Israel's recruitment attempts took place mostly in London,
right under the nose of U.S. intelligence officials.

"It's amazing what the Israelis thought they could get away with," Foreign Policy quoted an intelligence officer
as saying. "Their recruitment activities were nearly in the open.
They apparently didn't give a damn what we thought."

According to a currently serving U.S. intelligence officer, Perry reports, when Bush was briefed on the
information he "went absolutely ballistic."

Wow,Zdub,your post is so full of historical falsehoods I'd guess it came straight from Israeli propaganda.The only thing you said in the entire post that is true,is that most Americans support Israel.Your right there.Our educational system barely teaches world history,and our politicians are scared of losing Jewish and ultra-Christian votes and campaign money.So they sell out to the Israeli supporters,even though it little by little is destroying our own country.

But now to correct your post:

1.First, how do you know Israel is a nuclear country? Perhaps they're just pretending so that her neighbors aren't completely willing to start another war. If you do feel that Israel is a nuclear country, perhaps the best evidence you could use is Israel's relationship with South Africa, in which nuclear secrets may have been traded. Hardly Israel not wanting another country to have nuclear power. Israel is not a signatory to the NPT. On the other hand, Iran who is a signatory, is more than likely developing their own arsenal all the while telling Israel to destroy hers. Finally, Israel's nuclear arsenal hasn't been much of a deterent to aggression by her neighbors (i.e. Lebanon) and Israel has shown that they will not use nukes unless forced to.

The best book on Israels nuclear program is "The Samson Option" Here are a couple of points from the book.

• How Israel created a false control room at the Dimona nuclear facility to hide from American nuclear inspectors its use in creating nuclear weapons.
• How President Dwight Eisenhower’s administration tried and failed to force Israel to acknowledge its nuclear ambitions.

And here are two statements by Israeli officials as to their feelings about using them.The second is from PM Ariel Sharon,when he was Defense Minister for Israel.

We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we’ll take all of you with us.

We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the Middle East with us whenever we go.

The case is closed on whether Israel has nuclear weapons.Other than to fool posters here,no one seriously even doubts that fact in today's world.

As for not using the nuclear weapons in Lebanon,there were 3 reasons they didn't

They didn't need to,the US and other powers would have freaked,and Lebanon is so close the fallout would have backfired on to Israel.

2.Right, how many Israeli citizens have been stoned to death? What country doesn't use the death penalty? How many US assets has Israel bombed since the 70's? and Iran? How many terrorist attacks has Israel committed on foreign soil? and Iran? How many American citizens have been held hostage by Israel? and Iran? What country do you think Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Jordan feel more threatened by Israel or Iran? How many internationally recognized terrorist organizations has Israel supported? and Iran? What rock have you been living under for the past 40 years?

Israel has its share of extremists,the Hebron massacre comes to mind.The killing of PM Rabin by extremists is another.Then there are countless individual bombings and killings that we don't hear much about here,but are reported in the Israeli press if you check.

Israel doesn't officially use a death penalty,but in its attacks on Palestinians they kill so much that it works the same as if they had one.

The US is allied to Israel,so of course they aren't bombing and holding Americans hostage (except our government funds that we give them that is).But since our involvement with Israel is the cause of those problems,then they might as well have.

Israel has done so many Mossad killings and bombings that if they weren't our ally,we'd have put them on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list years ago.They don't need to deal with other terror groups they are one themselves.They are a classic case of "the pot calling the kettle black".But it seems they have also been dealing with some terror groups lately as even an Israeli press report admits.

"Israeli Mossad agents posed as CIA officers in order to recruit members of a Pakistani terror group to carry out assassinations and attacks against the regime in Iran, Foreign Policy revealed on Friday, quoting U.S. intelligence memos."

And

"Perry quotes a number of American intelligence officials and claims that the Mossad agents used American dollars and U.S. passports to pose as CIA spies to try to recruit members of Jundallah, a Pakistan-based Sunni extremist organization that has carried out a series of attacks in Iran and assassinations of government officials."

So much for Israel not being in bed with terror groups.

3.Oh, so you'd rather follow the US's two biggest enemies rather than support our biggest ally? Perhaps you should move to China or Russia and see how well you and your ignorant opinions will be tolerated.

The US's "biggest ally" Israel has done as much to hurt us lately as anyone else,so I guess that tell Russia and China to move over in the enemies column.

As for Americans having to leave our country for speaking the truth,that ain't happening.That's what makes us great,free speech,not bullying posters.My ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War,and all others after.So I'm kinda vested in this country.I'm figuring maybe you should take your own advise,and beat it for Tel Aviv.

4.What country was taken? There never was a country called Palestine. There were plenty of Jews living amongst nomadic Arab tribes, it wasn't until the Jews accepted the partition plan that the nomads became so concerned with who owned what land first. If you showed me some sort of educated opinion on this, I might be willing to debate you further on it, but I realize it's just futile to try and inform those who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. Pick up a history book and actually do some research. Oh and 67, funny how when you start a war with another country and get your ass kicked there are consequences you'll have to pay.

Either your just spouting Israeli propaganda or world history was not your subject.For centuries that land area was known as Palestine.It was also then considered a part of a "greater Syria",along with Lebanon and a part of Iraq.Then in more modern times there was "The British Mandate for PALESTINE",and in 1947 the " UN Partition of PALESTINE",funny how since biblical times there was no mention of an Israel on the maps,until after 1947.It case you haven't heard after WW2 to try and stop aggressive wars,the worlds nations outlawed the seizure and annexation of territories captured in war,unless it was agreed to at the signing of a peace treaty.That's why even the US hasn't recognized Israels land thefts as legal under international law.

5. What's your point? Your comparing Israel to the Native Americans. Europeans came in and kicked the Native Americans out (or massacred them), then the US confined them to reservations. Not exactly the US's brightest moment in history. We probably should give back much more land to the Native Americans, but we are far too greedy to even think about it. This analogy works much better to support Israel.

Two points here.First you ever heard the expression "two wrongs don't make a right".The shameful things done to the Native Americans several centuries ago were horrible.The best that we can say is,none of us living today were involved in those crimes.Israel on the other hand is committing those types of crimes today,in full view of all of us.

Second point.Really,when you put it like you did, "Europeans came in and kicked the Native Americans out (or massacred them), then the US confined them to reservations.",if you just change the words Native American to Palestinians,and US to Israel,you nailed on the head what happened and is still happening.

6.That's cause it's the news dude, all news is biased. The truly misinformed are those who don't bother to do any research. There are plenty of scholarly and historically true sources for accurate, unbiased information, if your too lazy to do your own research don't pretend to know what you're talking about. People in glass houses...

From your post I'll have to assume you never read a "scholarly and historically true source for accurate unbiased information".Believe it or not, pro-Israeli propaganda books,don't count as unbiased.You see from those books you didn't even know about the name Palestine.Just a quick search in Google would have helped you out more.

7.If you think the Kremlin is a good source of information for this conflict, I suggest you move to Russia.

I think I covered the Americans leaving our own country above.So see above.

8.I'll be back for the rest of you at lunch...

Better pack a big lunch if all your eating is Israeli propaganda.No calories there to stick to your bones,lol.

Either your [sic] just spouting Israeli propaganda or world history was not your subject.For centuries that land area was known as Palestine.

Bollocks.

The West Bank was Jordan, and Gaza was Egypt.

There has never been a "Nation of Palestine". No "Palestinian" currency, no "Palestinian" government, military or anything else.

The word "Jerusalem" is mentioned over 800 times in the Old Testament.

The word "Jerusalem" never appears in the Qu'ran.

Uncle Bob 512,

"Either your just spouting Israeli propaganda or world history was not your subject.For centuries that land area was known as Palestine.It was also then considered a part of a "greater Syria",along with Lebanon and a part of Iraq."

The area called "Palestine" has always referred to a geographical region in the Middle East; not to an independent, self-governing nation. It was given the name Palestine by the Romans and was named after the Philistines, an Indo-European speaking people who occupied the southern corner of that region in ancient times. That region of the Middle East has throughout history passed from one ruling power to another. The Canaanites were the first occupants, then the Jews in the ancient state of Israel, then it was conquered by Alexander the Great and subsequently by the Romans (to say nothing of periodic domination by Egypt, Babylon, Persia, etc). It finally came under the control of the Byzantine Empire and was wrested from them in 638 A.D. by the Muslim, Umar the Great. Then came domination by the Seljuks and Ottoman Turks, and finally the British. But the region has always been dominated by one power or another, and there has never been an independent, self-governing nation called Palestine. I think that is what ZDub meant when he said there never was a country called Palestine.

@Uncle Bob:

You don't seem to be very educated as you've completely missed the point on every single thing I posted (which can be backed with evidence). So let me correct you:

1) The case is closed on whether Israel has nuclear weapons.Other than to fool posters here,no one seriously even doubts that fact in today's world.

As for not using the nuclear weapons in Lebanon,there were 3 reasons they didn't

They didn't need to,the US and other powers would have freaked,and Lebanon is so close the fallout would have backfired on to Israel.

Ok, has Israel ever used a nuclear weapon in the 40 years they've had them? Have you seen any Israeli nuclear weapons? I don't doubt that Israel has nuclear weapons, but the only evidence that exists clearly shows that Israel isn't very concerned with other countries having nuclear weapons, only those that repeatedly call for Israel's destruction. Israel is not a signatory to the NPT, and so everything that Irene said about Israel's nuclear relationship to the world was misinformed... at best. Further, the points you made about Lebanon and the quotes you posted only further support my argument that Israel will not use nuclear weapons unless it is forced to (i.e. MAD).

2a) Israel has its share of extremists,the Hebron massacre comes to mind.The killing of PM Rabin by extremists is another.Then there are countless individual bombings and killings that we don't hear much about here,but are reported in the Israeli press if you check.

I never said otherwise, but since you brought it up, these Israeli extremists ("terrorists" fits way better) and their actions were horrible, I have never said otherwise, but these were attacks on Palestinians and other Israelis, not US assets. Besides the Liberty, how many US assets has Israel attacked? How about Iran and it's proxies?

2b) Israel doesn't officially use a death penalty,but in its attacks on Palestinians they kill so much that it works the same as if they had one.

So you actually agree with me? You can bring up an issue unrelated to my point, but how many Israeli citizens has the Israeli government stoned to death for violating biblical laws? How many Iranian women has Iran stoned to death for commiting adultery? I think it is quite clear what country is more willing to execute its own citizens. If Iran is so willing to murder it's own people, do you really think they will be more merciful to people it perceives as its enemy?

2c) The US is allied to Israel,so of course they aren't bombing and holding Americans hostage (except our government funds that we give them that is).But since our involvement with Israel is the cause of those problems,then they might as well have.

Oh really? So if I killed your Mom because you and I had an argument in which she took your side, you'd take responsibility for murdering her? Even if our involvement in the ME is because of our support for Israel (and not because of the fall-out from the cold war and our dependence on foreign oil), your argument makes no sense.

2d) So much for Israel not being in bed with terror groups.

Mossad is as much of a terrorist organization as the CIA. How many Americans has Mossad murdered? And if you consider Mossad as a proxy terrorist organization for Israel, then I can lump Hamas and Hezbollah and Syria in with Iran, who do you feel has been more kind to the US?

3a) The US's "biggest ally" Israel has done as much to hurt us lately as anyone else,so I guess that tell Russia and China to move over in the enemies column.

For example? Good luck!

3b) As for Americans having to leave our country for speaking the truth,that ain't happening.That's what makes us great,free speech,not bullying posters.My ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War,and all others after.So I'm kinda vested in this country.I'm figuring maybe you should take your own advise,and beat it for Tel Aviv.

I never said they had to leave, I was pointing out that the countries people like you blindly favor over Israel aren't very respectful of the things we cherish, like free speech. My ancestors fought along side yours, many of my friends are currently serving in the ME, I have an equally vested interest in my country and I'm not about to listen to our country's historical enemies and cut off ties with our most important ally.

4a) Either your just spouting Israeli propaganda or world history was not your subject.

Cute, I wonder where you learned your world history, the KKK? Have you ever been to the ME? Have you ever even left your state? Let's take this one one sentence at a time.

4b) For centuries that land area was known as Palestine.

Ok, show me a map from the 1800's. How about a flag? Currency? What kind of government did they have? The term "Palestine" used to define the region first appeared in 5th century bc in Ancient Greece. Considering Islam wasn't around until 570-632 c.e. the original inhabitants of the region of Palestine were very different from modern Palestinians. Jews/Israelites were among the original inhabitants.

4c) It was also then considered a part of a "greater Syria",along with Lebanon and a part of Iraq.

Then why aren't those countries viewed as occupiers of Palestine as well?

4d) Then in more modern times there was "The British Mandate for PALESTINE",and in 1947 the " UN Partition of PALESTINE",

Right, in both cases the term "Palestine" refered to the land that was to become Israel. The land that was to become the Arab country was called "Trans-Jordan." The Jews accepted this deal and the Arabs rejected it.

from the mandate:

"Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine, and to the grounds for reconstituting their National Home in that country."

4e) the worlds nations outlawed the seizure and annexation of territories captured in war,unless it was agreed to at the signing of a peace treaty.That's why even the US hasn't recognized Israels land thefts as legal under international law.

We can debate this one for days, but I'll leave it alone for now.

5) Your counter argument is opposite to the original point I was responding to. Your analogy is way better as an argument in support of the Palestinians than the original one made by survivor. However anyone who compares Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to the European's treatment of the Native Americans shows how ignorant they really are. While there may be some slight similarities, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is nothing close to the genocide committed against the Native Americans. Israel is not committing genocide against the Palestinians.

6) From your post I'll have to assume you never read a "scholarly and historically true source for accurate unbiased information".Believe it or not, pro-Israeli propaganda books,don't count as unbiased.You see from those books you didn't even know about the name Palestine.Just a quick search in Google would have helped you out more.

Wow, as you can see in my response to point #4, a quick Google search would have taught you a bit more about the name Palestine. That's just funny...

7) I think I covered the Americans leaving our own country above.So see above.

Sorry if I don't consider those that believe the Kremlin over our own government as being very patriotic.

8) Better pack a big lunch

Good thing I did, you brought more ignorance to this thread than I've seen in a long time.

Steven B,mistakenly asserts.

Bollocks.

The West Bank was Jordan, and Gaza was Egypt.

Only after 1947,before it was the British Mandate of PALESTINE,Google it,not hard to find.

There has never been a "Nation of Palestine".

In over 2,000 years until 1947,Palestine was ruled as a part of different Empires.Except during the time of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem.When after WW1 it became the British Mandate of Palestine it became a national entity of its own.Then it 1947 the Mandate was transferred to the UN and they voted to establish two independent nation states there.One would be called Israel the other Palestine.That was the birth certificate of the State of Israel,and thus also of Palestine.

No "Palestinian" currency, no "Palestinian" government, military or anything else.

See above for full answer,short answer is:

Until the British Mandate of Palestine,Palestine was an area of other Empires.Just as New York or California doesn't have their own currency,national government,or national military,neither did Palestine.

The word "Jerusalem" is mentioned over 800 times in the Old Testament.

Quite a bit in the Christian Bible too,whats your point.

The word "Jerusalem" never appears in the Qu'ran.

People in ancient Arabic talked in more flowery language than people do today.But verse 17:1 describes the Prophet Muhammad's journey to Jerusalem.Still not sure your point here too.The whole world knows it is one of Islams most Holy Shrines.

Michael,

I totally agree with your post.Those facts are right.But ZDUD used the term country. Whereas,I said land area.Not the same thing,If we use a European example Germany is a country and Bavaria a province.He was trying to say Palestine never existed because it wasn't classed as a country.My point was the land area called Palestine existed, it was a province of a larger country, until the British Mandate of Palestine was formed.

"...There never was a country called Palestine..."ZDUB

"....For centuries that land area was known as Palestine....."Uncle Bob

ZDUB

Must have got to you for you to bring out the big guns of misinformation.But I'll do my humble best to refute the lie's and half-truths,lol.

You don't seem to be very educated as you've completely missed the point on every single thing I posted (which can be backed with evidence). So let me correct you:

Hmm,I really don't need an PHD to correct the misinformation in your posts.As for the evidence,I'd love for you to post it.

Ok, has Israel ever used a nuclear weapon in the 40 years they've had them? Have you seen any Israeli nuclear weapons? I don't doubt that Israel has nuclear weapons, but the only evidence that exists clearly shows that Israel isn't very concerned with other countries having nuclear weapons, only those that repeatedly call for Israel's destruction. Israel is not a signatory to the NPT, and so everything that Irene said about Israel's nuclear relationship to the world was misinformed... at best. Further, the points you made about Lebanon and the quotes you posted only further support my argument that Israel will not use nuclear weapons unless it is forced to (i.e. MAD)

I've never seen India's or Pakistan's either,whats your point.But then why even bring that up since in you post you agree with me that they have them.I agree that they would only be used if they think they need to.I'm just not sure anyone else would think that.But then we are talking about the warmongering State of Israel here.

I never said otherwise, but since you brought it up, these Israeli extremists ("terrorists" fits way better) and their actions were horrible, I have never said otherwise, but these were attacks on Palestinians and other Israelis, not US assets. Besides the Liberty, how many US assets has Israel attacked? How about Iran and it's proxies?

I didn't want to hurt your feelings by calling Israeli zealots "Terrorists",but you are right that is the right name.What was your other point here,that Iran and others use terror as a form of policy.But then so does Israel as well.I guess I'd have to agree there.I didn't bring up the "Liberty" attack.But since you did.I think that was probably the first case of a US asset being attacked in the Middle East,and by Israel no less.Killing 34 American sailors and wounding 172 more.But let American investigators,the Captain and his Admiral speak for themselves:

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as 'murderous bastards.' It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

Israel has no moral high ground on the use of terror.They try to cover it with a claim of national security,but then that is the same claim that all murderous regime use.As I'v said before,two wrongs don't make a right.

So you actually agree with me? You can bring up an issue unrelated to my point, but how many Israeli citizens has the Israeli government stoned to death for violating biblical laws? How many Iranian women has Iran stoned to death for commiting adultery? I think it is quite clear what country is more willing to execute its own citizens. If Iran is so willing to murder it's own people, do you really think they will be more merciful to people it perceives as its enemy?

Not sure your point here.The Chinese have the highest execution rate in the world,followed closely by the US and others.If your looking to prove that Iran has a backward legal system.They are by far not the only one.But that still doesn't help your case for war.

Oh really? So if I killed your Mom because you and I had an argument in which she took your side, you'd take responsibility for murdering her? Even if our involvement in the ME is because of our support for Israel (and not because of the fall-out from the cold war and our dependence on foreign oil), your argument makes no sense.

Haha,my Mom wanted you to know she's "packing".

We,just like the Chinese,Japanese,Koreans,because of oil would be in the ME.But when was the last time you heard of an attack on them.Its our involvement with Israel that feeds the hatred.They keep saying that over and over,we just play deaf.

Mossad is as much of a terrorist organization as the CIA. How many Americans has Mossad murdered? And if you consider Mossad as a proxy terrorist organization for Israel, then I can lump Hamas and Hezbollah and Syria in with Iran, who do you feel has been more kind to the US?

The difference is:

Mossad is not a "proxy" terrorist organization for Israel.But instead is an Israeli entity, an Israeli government agency.While the other groups you mentioned are not Iranian government agencies,they aren't even Iranian for that matter.One is Lebanese,one Palestinian,and the other a country.

I never said they had to leave, I was pointing out that the countries people like you blindly favor over Israel aren't very respectful of the things we cherish, like free speech. My ancestors fought along side yours, many of my friends are currently serving in the ME, I have an equally vested interest in my country and I'm not about to listen to our country's historical enemies and cut off ties with our most important ally.

Your pro-Israeli crowd is always telling Americans that disagree with them to leave our country.Hell,this board alone is littered with many of those statements.As for Israel being our most important ally,that spot is the UK's.But I would love for you to post what makes Israel a great ally.I see you guys spouting that all the time,but I never see them post what makes them a great ally.So since you say you can prove what you say,why not post why Israel is our great ally.

Cute, I wonder where you learned your world history, the KKK? Have you ever been to the ME? Have you ever even left your state? Let's take this one one sentence at a time.

Your crowd here are the racists not mine.Though I hear the KKK won't let you guys join,is that true,lol. Actually I traveled all over the world when I was younger.And have friends of many ethnic backgrounds including Jewish,though I figure you pro-Israelis would rather call them "self-hating Jews", the title you guys like to use for any Jew that doesn't blindly support Israels every action.

Ok, show me a map from the 1800's. How about a flag? Currency? What kind of government did they have? The term "Palestine" used to define the region first appeared in 5th century bc in Ancient Greece. Considering Islam wasn't around until 570-632 c.e. the original inhabitants of the region of Palestine were very different from modern Palestinians. Jews/Israelites were among the original inhabitants.

We've already covered the name and map issues so that's a waste of time.Though I guess I could ask you the same thing for Israel in the 1800's.You do realize that religion and ethnicity aren't the same right.Next to the cavemen,the Canaanites were there first.But if you study historical demographics you will find that most of today's Palestinians are the descendants of the peoples living there at the time of the Islamic arrival.Over several thousand years they slowly were converted to Islam.So an interesting fact is that the Semitic Palestinian Arabs probably have more ancient Hebrew ancestors than most of the Zionist settlers from Europe.

Then why aren't those countries viewed as occupiers of Palestine as well?

I guess because they were the same people then that separated into separate states.No outside group stormed in to steal their land and expel them from there homes.

Right, in both cases the term "Palestine" refered to the land that was to become Israel. The land that was to become the Arab country was called "Trans-Jordan." The Jews accepted this deal and the Arabs rejected it.

from the mandate:

"Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine, and to the grounds for reconstituting their National Home in that country."

You've been trying to fool us ZDUB,you really know some of the history of the region.You as a good soldier for Israel just cares to conceal it,lol.

The actual statement is:

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

As the British pointed out "a national home" is not the same as a sovereign state.As prominent in the statement were these guaranties:

".. it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Since you know something about the Mandate,then you know that the Mandate of Palestine really was from the Jordan river to the Med.Sea. Proving now that your other statements were misinformation to fool Americans that might not know history.Not very ethical ZDUB,but then if Israeli supporters had ethics they wouldn't support Israel,so my bad.

5) Your counter argument is opposite to the original point I was responding to. Your analogy is way better as an argument in support of the Palestinians than the original one made by survivor. However anyone who compares Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to the European's treatment of the Native Americans shows how ignorant they really are. While there may be some slight similarities, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is nothing close to the genocide committed against the Native Americans. Israel is not committing genocide against the Palestinians.

I never mentioned Genocide.I don't think the Israeli government is genocidal.Some of the zealots have talked genocide in some of their writings but Israel doesn't practice genocide.What they do practice is apartheid.They have created in that land a South African style apartheid society there.And have even improved on the violence of it.They have a "Heerenvolk" mentality in their dealings with the Middle East.

Wow, as you can see in my response to point #4, a quick Google search would have taught you a bit more about the name Palestine. That's just funny...

Not sure if me telling you to Google it helped you or not.You just left out the statements and facts that didn't fit your preconceived opinions. I was hoping for more from you.

Sorry if I don't consider those that believe the Kremlin over our own government as being very patriotic.

One of the great things about our democratic freedoms here in the US,is,that you don't get to decide what's patriotic or not.

Good thing I did, you brought more ignorance to this thread than I've seen in a long time.

After going over your post,I had to have a big steak.I knew I'd be here all night.You see debating truth against truth is one thing.But having to battle you guys,with your misinformation,half truths and just plain ignorance,is much harder.But don't fear man,I'm up for the job.

Uncle Bob - Great post - You obviously have all the facts and used them to put Zdub in his place. Zionists have their own version of Jewish history, which they pour out to the world, through their media outlets, in the form of propaganda.

In over 2,000 years until 1947,Palestine was ruled as a part of different Empires.Except during the time of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem.When after WW1 it became the British Mandate of Palestine it became a national entity of its own.Then it 1947 the Mandate was transferred to the UN and they voted to establish two independent nation states there.One would be called Israel the other Palestine.That was the birth certificate of the State of Israel,and thus also of Palestine.

So, you've decided that only the British "Palestinian" mandate is acceptable out of 2,000 years?

You've been exposed your own bias.

The Word "Israel" is mentioned hundreds of times in the Old Testament.

Until the British Mandate of Palestine,Palestine was an area of other Empires.

So, you admit there never was a "Nation of Palestine".

Thanks for playing!

Don't know what you been smoking.But if you think because the current Israelis call there new, from 1947,state after a 3-4,000 year old Biblical kingdom,they have some magical claim to other peoples land,you need to lay off the crack.Would it make you feel better if the Palestinians changed the name of Palestine to Canaan.That's an older name for the land than Israel.

@ Uncle Bob:

I've never seen India's or Pakistan's either,whats your point.

2 points: First, India and Pakistan are actually quite flagrant with their nukes

India:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqcbqh-GtNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdb6h6eCyF8

Pakistan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuKWJeAKx_Y

Perhaps this is just to scare each other as part of their own MAD, but regardless, this was all over the news in the late 90's you must be pretty young if you don't remember this.

Second point is that though I personally believe Israel probably has a nuclear arsenal, there is very little concrete evidence, and the evidence that does exists counters the original point I was responding to.

I agree that they would only be used if they think they need to. I'm just not sure anyone else would think that.

So then why post things like:

As for not using the nuclear weapons in Lebanon, there were 3 reasons they didn't

They didn't need to,the US and other powers would have freaked, and Lebanon is so close the fallout would have backfired on to Israel.

You're suggesting that if they could have they would have used nukes on Lebanon, do you recant you're orignal statement? We're kind of beating a dead horse here, but the overall point I'm making is that Israel is far far less likely to use a nuke than Iran would be if they had one, and there is way less of a chance of
an Israeli nuke "disapearing" than an Iranian one would be.

I didn't want to hurt your feelings by calling Israeli zealots "Terrorists",but you are right that is the right name.What was your other point here,that Iran and others use terror as a form of policy. But then so does Israel as well.I guess I'd have to agree there.I didn't bring up the "Liberty" attack.But since you did.I think that was probably the first case of a US asset being attacked in the Middle East,and by Israel no
less.Killing 34 American sailors and wounding 172 more.But let American
investigators,the Captain and his Admiral speak for themselves:

All of these incidents happened a long time ago, at a very small scale, and Israel has paid some retributions. I'll give you something here though, I personally consider the illegal Israeli settlers as terrorists as well. But when we are talking about what the most dangerous country is, you have very little (if anything at all) of Israeli aggression towards the US in the last 40 years, and prior to that all you have is the Liberty. You can bring up the Liberty as much as you want, but I can look at incidents that have happened over the past 20 years where far more Americans have been killed by Iranian linked terrorist
organizations.

Israel has no moral high ground on the use of terror. They try to cover it with a claim of national security,but then that is the same claim that all murderous regime use.As I'v said before,two wrongs don't make a right.

As I've already stated, Israel's hands aren't completely clean in this matter. However, Israel isn't targeting the US or any western country with terrorism. Further, though I consider many of the settlers terrorists, burning down a mosque isn't quite the same as stabbing a baby in their sleep. Bombing a suspected militant hideout after issuing a warning isn't the same as shooting a rocket at a school bus.

Not sure your point here.The Chinese have the highest execution rate in the world,followed closely by the US and others.If your looking to prove that Iran has a backward legal system.They are by far not the only
one.But that still doesn't help your case for war.

Again, not trying to make the case for war (I really hope that is not where all of this is going). Just pointing out with evidence what the more dangerous country is.

Haha,my Mom wanted you to know she's "packing".

We,just like the Chinese,Japanese,Koreans,because of oil would be in the ME.But when was the last time you heard of an attack on them. Its our involvement with Israel that feeds the hatred.They keep saying that over and over,we just play deaf.

Exactly, the US is packing too! Yet you missed my point entirely. Even if they hate us because of our involvement with Israel, that's on them and not us. However, they aren't saying that over and over. What they are saying over and over is that it is our very pressence in the ME that creates the hate. They hate us
because as the younger generations become more educated as a result of the increasing ease of global access to information, they also become more Westernized and harder to control. We've seen this recently with the Arab Spring. In fact, the attacks on 9/11 were planned prior to the second intifada during a time of relative optimism for a peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Here's a really good op-ed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/22/opinion/22roy.html

Our pressence in the ME has everything to do with the Cold War and Oil and little to do with our relationship with Israel.

Mossad is not a "proxy" terrorist organization for Israel.But instead is an Israeli entity, an Israeli government agency. While the other groups you mentioned are not Iranian government agencies, they aren't even Iranian for that matter.One is Lebanese,one Palestinian,and the other a country.

Perhaps the CIA would have been a better example. You Israel haters love to claim that the CIA is controlled by Israel. Although hezbollah, hamas, and Syria aren't Iranian agencies, they all receive tons of financial and military support from Iran.

Your pro-Israeli crowd is always telling Americans that disagree with them to leave our country.

Again, I never said they have to or should leave, just tried to point out that their opinions wouldn't be so welcomed in the countries they think are better or more moral than Israel.

As for Israel being our most important ally,that spot is the UK's.But I would love for you to post what makes Israel a great ally.I see you guys spouting that all the time,but I never see them post what makes them a great ally.So since you say you can prove what you say,why not post why Israel is our great ally.

Britain is a great ally to the US but it can be debated who is the better ally. As far as the evidence you requested, here you go:

Military training: http://www.jinsa.org/publications/research-articles/us-israel-cooperation/us-israel-joint-training-increase-missile-defen

Military equipment and technology: http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/us-military-aid-and-israel

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Israel_seeks_to_buy_US_equipment_in_Iraq_999.html

"Israel uses almost 75% of its FMF funds to purchase U.S. defense equipment."

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/100102.pdf

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/world/iraq/2003-03-24-israel-tech_x.htm

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-israel-gives-us-military.html

http://www.wrmea.org/special-topics/9748-us-aid-to-israel.html

Counter Terrorism:

http://israelactnow.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-israel-does-for-united-states.html

Health Care:

http://www.mitchellbard.com/articles/biotech.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3917099,00.html

Economic relationship:

http://www.mythsandfacts.com/NOQ_OnlineEdition/Chapter17/unitedstatesisrael1.htm

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm

IT and R&D:

http://www.usistf.org/

Education:

http://nocamels.com/2011/08/israeli-high-tech-method-revolutionizing-us-education/

Environment:

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/10/27/three-israeli-innovations-that-could-power-u-s-renewables/

http://www.energynow.com/video/2011/10/17/israel-connection-israeli-innovations-powering-america

Other goods and services:

http://www.usistf.org/download/US_Israel_Innovation_Index_2011.pdf

That’s really just the tip of the iceberg, if you need more evidence just ask. Now out of ALL of the ME countries you seem to love so much, or really any country for that matter, can you provide evidence of a stronger, more beneficial relationship with the US?

I figure you pro-Israelis would rather call them "self-hating Jews", the title you guys like to use for any Jew that doesn't blindly support Israels every action.

Well I'm pretty outspoken against settlers, expansionism, Likid, and Bibi so I must be a pro-Israeli self-hating Jew (end sarcasm). It makes me sick how people like you pretend to know everything about the region and yet you can't even separate the fact that not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews.

We've already covered the name and map issues so that's a waste of time.Though I guess I could ask you the same thing for Israel in the 1800's.

Don't need to, no one ever claimed Israel was a country prior to 1947. But since you asked:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=%22THE+LAND+OF+ISRAEL,+ITS+DIVISION+AND+BORDERS%22,+BY+RABBI+ELIAHU+OF+VILNA+(1802%3F)&um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=985&tbm=isch&tbnid=17tKSuwou_PLKM:&imgrefurl=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1802map.html&docid=lht59k0aovUBAM&imgurl=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/oldjer12.jpg&w=395&h=330&ei=9cEVT-S1GeOuiQKMh9TODQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=184&vpy=149&dur=2415&hovh=205&hovw=246&tx=142&ty=112&sig=100500858664261480246&page=1&tbnh=148&tbnw=177&start=0&ndsp=4&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

Circa 1802

You do realize that religion and ethnicity aren't the same right.

I do, do you?

Next to the cavemen,the Canaanites were there first.But if you study historical demographics you will find that most of today's Palestinians are the descendants of the peoples living there at the time of the Islamic
arrival.

Actually, it's way harder to determine than you seem to think. While many of the modern day Palestinians are absolutely the descendants of the peoples you mention, determining specific demographics is next to impossible. Many have N African and E Asian ancestors as well.

Over several thousand years they slowly were converted to Islam. So an interesting fact is that the Semitic Palestinian Arabs probably have more ancient Hebrew ancestors than most of the Zionist settlers from Europe.

Absolutely, 100% wrong!!! ALL Jews can trace their heritage back to the 12 tribes, and can support their lineage with DNA evidence. http://www.cohen-levi.org/the_tribe/tribes_of_israel.htm

I guess because they were the same people then that separated into separate states.No outside group stormed in to steal their land and expel them from there homes.

In conjunction with the last point I just made, what you are saying is that it is because they are Muslim and not Jewish right? So the only reason Israel is viewed as an occupier is because it is the only Jewish country in the ME. I agree.

You've been trying to fool us ZDUB,you really know some of the history of the region.You as a good soldier for Israel just cares to conceal it,lol.

The actual statement is:

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national
home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

As the British pointed out "a national home" is not the same as a sovereign state. As prominent in the statement were these guaranties:

".. it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Since you know something about the Mandate, then you know that the Mandate of Palestine really was from the Jordan river to the Med.Sea. Proving now that your other statements were misinformation to fool Americans that might not know history.Not very ethical ZDUB,but then if Israeli supporters had
ethics they wouldn't support Israel,so my bad.

You only reiterated my point, and then accused me of trying to fool you. That's just silly. The mandate set up the partition plan which Israel used to establish its borders when the mandate expired in 1948 and Israel declared independence when the British handed over control. Almost every non-Arab nation then recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. In the mandate, the partition plan, the balfour declaration, etc. the land that was to become Israel was referred to as Palestine, and the Arab inhabitants were to receive full civil rights. Most of the area that was ear-marked for the Arab state was called Transjordan. The WB was part of Transjordan, the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt, and the Golan was part of Syria. Nothing you've posted counters this fact, and only supports my understanding.

I never mentioned Genocide.I don't think the Israeli government is genocidal.Some of the zealots have talked genocide in some of their writings but Israel doesn't practice genocide.

Though you never mentioned genocide specifically, you basically accused Israel of being genocidal when you said:

The shameful things done to the Native Americans several centuries ago were horrible.The best that we can say is,none of us living today were involved in those crimes.Israel on the other hand is committing those types of crimes today,in full view of all of us.

Second point. Really,when you put it like you did, "Europeans came in and kicked the Native Americans out (or massacred them), then the US confined them to reservations.",if you just change the words Native
American to Palestinians, and US to Israel, you nailed on the head what happened and is still happening.

Do you recant this as well?

What they do practice is apartheid.They have created in that land a South African style apartheid society there. And have even improved on the violence of it.They have a "Heerenvolk" mentality in their dealings
with the Middle East.

Much better, I actually do agree with you here. I personally feel that Israel should help the Palestinians in the WB establish a sovereign nation, develop a good relationship, and let the Palestinians in Gaza see through action that if they kick out violent groups like Hamas and demonstrate a willingness for peace,
they can achieve a united, independent Palestine comprising of pretty much all of the land they are demanding.

Not sure if me telling you to Google it helped you or not.You just left out the statements and facts that didn't fit your preconceived opinions. I was hoping for more from you.

Again, nothing you’ve posted contradicts anything I said. You just deny the truth with lies without offering any evidence to suggest otherwise, then proceed to call me a liar for posting the truth.

One of the great things about our democratic freedoms here in the US,is,that you don't get to decide what's patriotic or not.

Actually, that IS one my freedoms, it’s called freedom of speech. Are you saying I can’t decide for myself what’s patriotic and what’s not? I think that might be the case in Iran and some of the other ME countries you love, but that’s definitely not how it works in the USA.

You see debating truth against truth is one thing.But having to battle you guys,with your misinformation,half truths and just plain ignorance,is much harder.But don't fear man,I'm up for the job.

Ha! Where did I say anything that’s not true? Half-true? Where’s your evidence to support your counter arguments? Everything you’ve posted only supports my points. It seems to me and many other posters here that your debating my factual evidence with propaganda and your own biased opinion. Looking
forward to some more of your misinformation…

@RalphH:

You obviously have all the facts and used them to put Zdub in his place. Zionists have their own version of Jewish history, which they pour out to the world, through their media outlets, in the form of propaganda.

As you can see above, Bob presented absolutely no facts that countered any of my statements. You Israel haters have nothing to support your arguments except for conspiracy theories and your own propaganda. Way to not add anything to this conversation, have you ever formulated a factually informed opinion of your own?

ZDUB,

Thanks for posting your sources I appreciate it.I will post my response later tonight or tomorrow,after checking them all out.I like to see sources people use as the basis for their opinions on a subject.So I was being truthful when I said I was reading them.

From your post I see there are some points that we actually agree on.Or at least,in the main.Those points,unless to clear up side issues,I'll skip in my post.I will leave our debate to the issues that we disagree on.

@ZDUB,

1.Since you and I both agree that Israel is a nuclear power,I see no point in debating on that issue.

2.On the use of nuclear weapons.I think we agree,they won't use them unless they believe they need them.Our only disagreement might be on when they considered they needed to use them.In Lebanon,the 3 reasons I gave was why I didn't think they thought they needed them.

"but the overall point I'm making is that Israel is far far less likely to use a nuke than Iran would be if they had one, and there is way less of a chance of
an Israeli nuke "disapearing" than an Iranian one would be"

Since Iran doesn't have one,and according to the latest CIA intelligence report hasn't decided to actually built one,we don't know.As to a nuke "disappearing",several other nuclear states are more unstable than Iran and haven't had more missing.

All of these incidents happened a long time ago, at a very small scale, and Israel has paid some retributions. I'll give you something here though, I personally consider the illegal Israeli settlers as terrorists as well. But when we are talking about what the most dangerous country is, you have very little (if anything at all) of Israeli aggression towards the US in the last 40 years, and prior to that all you have is the Liberty. You can bring up the Liberty as much as you want, but I can look at incidents that have happened over the past 20 years where far more Americans have been killed by Iranian linked terrorist organizations.

I was judging Israel as a dangerous country to world peace not solely on its attacks, or not, on American interests.Though the fact that they attacked Americans even though we are allies,I do find shocking.But the history of the Zionist movement in Israel is full of terrorist actions,from the terror bombings in the 1930's,the murder of the British Ambassador to Egypt in 1944,the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946,the murder of the UN emissary Count Bernadotte in 1948,a particularly heinous crime as he was renowned for his wartime aid to Jews in Nazi controlled Europe.Numerous terrorist crimes committed before and after the UN partition against British citizens and Palestinian villagers.The first terrorist groups called "Palestinian terrorist" in the papers were Zionist Palestinian Jews.As well through the 50's,60's,70's,80's and then even today,Israelis have committed terrorist acts.The difference now is some of them are done by the Israeli government,no longer by Zionist gangs,while the rest are committed by the settler movement in Israel.A group supported ,at least, by Israels government and ,at most, an unofficial part of the government.The burning of a Mosque,is only the tip of the iceberg concerning settler crimes in Palestine.Crimes that when punished,at all, are mostly by a slap on the wrist,compared to the punishment given to a Palestinian.There's a saying that "today's terrorist is tomorrow's Prime Minister.That was an actual fact in Israel,both Menechaim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir,two of Israels most,famous or infamous,leaders were terrorist commanders before rising to power.Israel, and we, seem to forget these facts when accusing the Iranian leaders of ties to terrorism.You said that Israels crimes were along time ago,as if that gave them some kind of a pass.The US doesn't have a statute of limitation on capital crimes,and even today the world is still convicting ex-Nazi beasts for their horrific deeds.

Again, not trying to make the case for war (I really hope that is not where all of this is going). Just pointing out with evidence what the more dangerous country is.

Given what we know about Israels ability to bring harm to the world,I have to say Israel is certainly in the running.

Even if they hate us because of our involvement with Israel, that's on them and not us. However, they aren't saying that over and over. What they are saying over and over is that it is our very pressence in the ME that creates the hate. They hate us
because as the younger generations become more educated as a result of the increasing ease of global access to information, they also become more Westernized and harder to control. We've seen this recently with the Arab Spring. In fact, the attacks on 9/11 were planned prior to the second intifada during a time of relative optimism for a peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Here's a really good op-ed:

Thanks,I read the article.I don't believe that its as simple as that.I don't think Westerners want to believe that their actions have caused the rise of terrorism.From the trauma of the Western blindness at the treatment of Palestine,the Western favoritism shown to Israel,to the Western support given to Middle Eastern tyrants,for decades in controlling their own people.All these play as great a part in the rise of radicalism.All my Middle Eastern friends,at one time or the other, have mentioned their outrage at the Palestine issue,and the West's abandonment of democratic ideals in the Middle East.Osama Bin Laden himself said on tape that when planning 9/11,he thought of the buildings of Beirut falling under Israeli bombs in 1982.

Our pressence in the ME has everything to do with the Cold War and Oil and little to do with our relationship with Israel.

Before our Israeli connection we had no problems with oil issues .The West's first big oil problem was the 1973 oil crisis brought on by Arab anger over Western support for Israel in the October War.Since then fear of it happening again raised our involvement in the Middle East.That feeding resentment and making our nightmares come true.

Again, I never said they have to or should leave, just tried to point out that their opinions wouldn't be so welcomed in the countries they think are better or more moral than Israel.

"Irene and 1surviivor need to move to Iran or Russia>ZDUB"

Though why should they move out of their country for criticizing Israel,when they are Americans living in America.

Britain is a great ally to the US but it can be debated who is the better ally. As far as the evidence you requested, here you go:

I'll still take the UK as our most important ally.But thanks for the links.Several of them actually prove some of my points,then some are more propaganda.I read both kinds,but bookmarked the ones that sided with me,lol.

Now out of ALL of the ME countries you seem to love so much, or really any country for that matter, can you provide evidence of a stronger, more beneficial relationship with the US?

I never said I loved countries in the ME.I just don't like injustice.I feel like Herder that each people/nation is different,that doesn't mean some are better or worse:"every nation bears in itself the standard of its perfection, totally independent of all comparison with that of others"

But on your second point,any nation that our relationship with,doesn't bear the seeds of our own destruction,as does our relationship with Israel.Would be more beneficial to us.

As for economic issues.In spite of the economic articles I read from you, Israel doesn't even make the top ten of our trading pardners.The bottom line is, we don't need Israel,but Israel needs us.

Well I'm pretty outspoken against settlers, expansionism, Likid, and Bibi so I must be a pro-Israeli self-hating Jew (end sarcasm). It makes me sick how people like you pretend to know everything about the region and yet you can't even separate the fact that not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews.

Other than this post debating me I haven't seen anything you've posted criticizing anything about Israel.

I've only met a few Israeli Jews,most Jews I know are American Jews.

As for your last point,Jews make up around 75% of Israel,25% non-Jewish.Unlike in other multi-ethnic nations though,they just don't count.These figures don't include the occupied Palestinian lands which are at least 85% non-Jewish and around 15% Jewish settlers.

Actually, it's way harder to determine than you seem to think. While many of the modern day Palestinians are absolutely the descendants of the peoples you mention, determining specific demographics is next to impossible. Many have N African and E Asian ancestors as well.

Well I guess the historical demographers have managed to do it some how.You do know that E.Asia is China,Korea,and Japan,right.How many Palestinians do you know that look like they came from there.(says with sarcasm).

Absolutely, 100% wrong!!! ALL Jews can trace their heritage back to the 12 tribes, and can support their lineage with DNA evidence.

You are kidding right.

In conjunction with the last point I just made, what you are saying is that it is because they are Muslim and not Jewish right? So the only reason Israel is viewed as an occupier is because it is the only Jewish country in the ME. I agree.

No,it was because thousands of people came from far away,turned the inhabitants out of there homes,and stole their land.When the Crusaders did the same thing in the Middle Ages they were viewed as occupiers too,and they were Christian Europeans,not like now Jewish Europeans.

You only reiterated my point, and then accused me of trying to fool you. That's just silly. The mandate set up the partition plan which Israel used to establish its borders when the mandate expired in 1948 and Israel declared independence when the British handed over control. Almost every non-Arab nation then recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. In the mandate, the partition plan, the balfour declaration, etc. the land that was to become Israel was referred to as Palestine, and the Arab inhabitants were to receive full civil rights. Most of the area that was ear-marked for the Arab state was called Transjordan. The WB was part of Transjordan, the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt, and the Golan was part of Syria. Nothing you've posted counters this fact, and only supports my understanding.

You need to reread your history.What is called Israel today,and the West Bank and Gaza,was the Mandate of Palestine.The UN voted to divide that area into two states,one called Israel and one which would be Palestine.Until during and after the war,Jordan had no part of the Mandate territories.Gaza and the West Bank was occupied by Jordan and Egypt but then were seized by Israel in 1967.The Golan was not part of Palestine.It was stolen from Syria in 1967.The civil rights that were supposed to be given the Palestinians in the occupied areas are still being awaited.The millions forced from their homes,have never see those civil rights in their own lands.

Though you never mentioned genocide specifically, you basically accused Israel of being genocidal when you said:

The shameful things done to the Native Americans several centuries ago were horrible.The best that we can say is,none of us living today were involved in those crimes.Israel on the other hand is committing those types of crimes today,in full view of all of us.

Second point. Really,when you put it like you did, "Europeans came in and kicked the Native Americans out (or massacred them), then the US confined them to reservations.",if you just change the words Native
American to Palestinians, and US to Israel, you nailed on the head what happened and is still happening.

Do you recant this as well?

I never claimed genocide,but close to genocide,I do agree too.When you denationalize a people through force,expel millions from their homes,in some cases,commit massacres,and confine the remainder to large reservations.I think that comes close to the UN definition of genocide.

Again, nothing you’ve posted contradicts anything I said. You just deny the truth with lies without offering any evidence to suggest otherwise, then proceed to call me a liar for posting the truth.

I've posted evidence throughout my posts,you just don't agree with me.So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Actually, that IS one my freedoms, it’s called freedom of speech. Are you saying I can’t decide for myself what’s patriotic and what’s not? I think that might be the case in Iran and some of the other ME countries you love, but that’s definitely not how it works in the USA.

I'm saying you don't get to decide for anyone except yourself.

Ha! Where did I say anything that’s not true? Half-true? Where’s your evidence to support your counter arguments? Everything you’ve posted only supports my points. It seems to me and many other posters here that your debating my factual evidence with propaganda and your own biased opinion. Looking
forward to some more of your misinformation.

You are more of the half-truth guy.On the off chance,that you might want to learn the truth,here are a few books you might check-out.

1.The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited by Benny Morris

2.The Passionate Attachment by George Ball

3.The Birth of Israel:Myths and Realities by Simha Flapan

4.The Samson Option by Seymour Hersh

5.Dangerous Liaison by Andrew Cockburn

.

@Uncle Bob:

Though I actually do understand and respect what I believe is your real opinion on this whole affair, I am done debating with you. It realy comes down to 2 things that I think expose your bias and hypocracy.

1) You just posted that I said two posters NEED to move to Iran or Russia. I never said this, how about posting the post #? That's libel dude, and it's reason enough for me to stop this discussion.

2) You said:

thanks for the links.Several of them actually prove some of my points,then some are more propaganda.I read both kinds,but bookmarked the ones that sided with me,lol.

I think this also speaks volume to your character. Notice how I use sources that may have an overall perspective on this issue that differs from mine in order to prove my points? People like you love to dismiss anything that isn't inline with your personal bias as propaganda. I recognize the bias in the sources of my information, I use sources that offer an opposing bias, and I understand that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Until you can demonstrate the same, rather than blindly believing only the stuff that you seem to think is credible information, your not worth my time.

ZDUB,

1) You just posted that I said two posters NEED to move to Iran or Russia. I never said this, how about posting the post #? That's libel dude, and it's reason enough for me to stop this discussion.

Something isn't Libel if its true.On this same page down a few posts.

ZDUB>Irene and 1surviivor need to move to Iran or Russia...(#5.10 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:49 PM EST

2) You said:

thanks for the links.Several of them actually prove some of my points,then some are more propaganda.I read both kinds,but bookmarked the ones that sided with me,lol.

I think this also speaks volume to your character. Notice how I use sources that may have an overall perspective on this issue that differs from mine in order to prove my points? People like you love to dismiss anything that isn't inline with your personal bias as propaganda. I recognize the bias in the sources of my information, I use sources that offer an opposing bias, and I understand that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Until you can demonstrate the same, rather than blindly believing only the stuff that you seem to think is credible information, your not worth my time.

I have a few things to say about that.You guys are notorious for attacking anyone that in any way disagrees with Israel,in some of the most vile terms imaginable.I have always (and today) had a deep feeling for the Jewish people.As a student of history and more over, ethnic studies,I've studied Jewish history a great deal,as well as many other peoples histories .I admire the many wonderful accomplishments that Jews have brought to the world though the ages.I started out actually supporting Israel years ago.I read books full of praise for the founding of Israel and through their early settlement years.But then one day in the 1990's,while reading posts on another site.I started seeing some of the most racist,filthy writings I've ever seen,directed at Arabs,things along the lines of "they should all be killed,the babies should be strangled in their cribs,we will take all the land and expel or kill them all,ragheads should all die,etc,etc,etc",this was years before 9/11. I thought "WTF",and posted that it wasn't right to condemn a people like that,to which I received back more of the same,plus a few at me as a "Arab lover",to quote the mildest one.I figured out that most of these were coming from American Jews and some Israelis living here.So I began to think, maybe I needed to study Israels treatment of the Palestinians myself,and not just take the Zionist propaganda that I'd seen, and believed in so much as true.I searched out books on the subject,looking for the truth.I already knew the Israeli side,I was immersed in it.But I'd never really seen the Palestinian side.I began to notice that most of the books written on the Middle East conflicts were written by Jewish writers.I saw that 90% of them were pro-Israeli,so I began to read as many of the 10% as I could find,and compare both sides.Since my University here ,has one of the biggest,best, Middle Eastern departments in the US,I was able to talk with knowledgeable people on the subject.And searched their vast library for unbiased,and also pro-Palestinian books.Normally that's not an easy task to do here.But between talking to people,reading,and a great deal of internet searching,my eyes began to open to the truth.I began to understand that Zionism is an aberration of Jewish history,not its fulfillment.That their racist philosophy,doesn't stand for whats best in the Jewish people,but only brought out the worst.Not, in Jews alone,but in its misguided Christian supporters as well.Those that stand by,as their fellow Christians in Palestine are oppressed by Israel.In the hope that it will bring on the return of the Messiah and the last Judgement.From the beginning,Zionism has used the legitimate fears of Jews to be safe,and twisted those fears into the garrison apartheid state they are today.They drank deep at the Nazi pool,and have created a "heerenvolk" state in the Holy Land,for themselves.And a large prison camp for the Palestinians.As I said,I did read all the articles you sent.Most of them were about Israels economic feats,inventions, military innovations and cooperation with the US.Do you think I don't know,or that I care about how good their economy is,or their strong military.I was looking for something that would disprove or prove what I understand about Israeli society and what's their thinking on peace it the Middle East.Except for one article that had sound ideas,but mostly mirrored my own thoughts,there was nothing.I on the other hand left you a list of what I'd call starter books.Not books that were anti-Israeli but were truthful,two of them written by Israeli historians,one by a famous American Jewish journalist,one by an ex-secretary of state,and one by news reporter.All of them describe,from the early years the growth of the current political problems in the Middle East,and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.I don't know about you,but I have hope for peace,In my trips in many parts of the world,I'm met Palestinians and Israelis,that want peace,and have worked for peace.But until the Israeli government is truly committed to a real peace,the two state solution,end of the settler land thefts, and the end of occupation,that will never happen.I see the the current government as just more of the same.Stall peace,and little by little,gobble more land,a few acres at a time.That has been Israels policy since occupation began.Under Labor and Likud,or under Likud and Labor,its been the same.So forgive me for not thinking Israel is serious about real peace,but only on keeping the land.As Zionist's have said privately,"a hundred years ago we had nothing,then in 1948 we got more than half the land,then in 1967 we got all the land,and we don't plan on giving it back".With that kind of thinking,again forgive me if Palestinians doubt Israel really wants peace.When Israel is serious about peace,they will take the kind of bold step that Sadat took for peace.They will say we will talk with no pre-conditions on a practical timeline for the end of settlements and occupation,to the creation of a State of Palestine.Until that time,we can figure they are interested in more stalling.So now you know where I stand,and from your posts I know where you stand.Have a nice life.

The US should NOT give any support to Israel to fight another war. Let Israel learn to get along with its neighbors. And we cut our military budget because the American people got sick and tired of seeing the bloated military when so many are suffering without jobs.

Let Israel learn to get along with its neighbors.

Like Hamas and Hesb'Allah?

Israel was an early supported of Hamas and that is a fact, just look it up. Hezbollah was formed as a direct result of Israel's destruction of Lebanon. Both of these enemies are of Israel's own making. These groups rised as a consequence of Israel's belligerent actions, not the other way around

Hezbollah was formed as a direct result of Israel's destruction of Lebanon.

Hesb'Allah is an Iranian/Syrian proxy.

Syria has done more to destroy Lebanon than anyone else.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, they will never negotiate with Israel, they want to kill every Jew on the planet.

Steven - Hezbollah may be supported by Iran, but Hezbollah does not answer to Iran. They exist, only to keep Lebanon free from Israeli occupation. Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. Hezbollah is made up of Lebanese people, not Iranians.

You continue to push Israeli propaganda, just like Bart, David and a few others. How much does that pay, anyways? Israel also has many propagandists writing anti Iran columns in the newspapers, like Charles Krauthammer and Cal Thomas. Thankfully, a few have retired since the Iraq war.

No more wars for Israel.

Hezbollah may be supported by Iran, but Hezbollah does not answer to Iran. They exist, only to keep Lebanon free from Israeli occupation. Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. Hezbollah is made up of Lebanese people, not Iranians.

Come on now RalphH! You have to be pretty ignorant to make that claim. It'd be like me saying that Mossad doesn't answer to Israel, they exist, but only to keep Israel free from Arab terrorists. Even though I know you won't read these, perhaps they might educate those who think even for a second that you speak the truth:

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/060715_hezbollah.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_of_Iran

http://www.irantracker.org/military-activities/iran-lebanese-hezbollah-relationship-tracker-2011

If you're not going to do the research for yourself, don't even pretend to act like you know what you are talking about!

I have already done research on Hezbollah from neutral sources. I do not need to read Israeli propaganda. I do understand they have a relationship, but Hezbollah acts in behalf of Lebanon, not Iran.

If a war against Iran is started by Israel, I would expect Hezbollah to act as any good friend would and attack Israel with every means at its disposal.

The Mossad, as Uncle Bob noted, is an Israeli entity, based in Israel, which commits acts of assassination and spying in many countries throughout the world. Their acts have included the assassination of JFK and the rigging of the WTCs, facilitating their collapse on 9/11, a false flag attack.

Here are links which show motive and connections. The links do not show Johnson was Jewish, which adds to motive. They also do not mention that Jack Ruby was a Zionist/Jew, which adds the to the coverup. It all happened in Texas, home of Lyndon Johnson, a powerful and corrupt individual. When you look at all he did for Israel, the motive becomes more clear.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/mossadandtheassassination.htm

http://lennybendavid.com/2008/05/lyndon-johnsons-historical-connection.html

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/36262/friend-ally-savior-revealing-lbj-s-jewish-ties/

RalphH,

"Hezbollah may be supported by Iran, but Hezbollah does not answer to Iran. They exist, only to keep Lebanon free from Israeli occupation."

If Hezbollah exists only to keep Lebanon free from Israeli occupation, then why do they have agents in Latin America and the United States? The Americas are a long, long way from Lebanon and Israel. There's a book about Hezbollah you should read entitled "Lightening Out of Lebanon: Hezbollah Terrorists on American Soil" by Tom Diaz and Barbara Newman, published by Ballantine Books, 2006. It might open your eyes a bit to the operations of Hezbollah.

Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years.

Israel occupied all of Lebanon? Where do you come up with these fantasies?

A Brief History

Lebanon is a country of ethnic minorities. Maronite Christians, Sunni and Shiite Muslims, Alawites, and many others have all made Lebanon their home. The diverse composition of the nation was reflected in the structures of political power. For example, the 1943 National Pact mandated that the president would be a Christian, the prime minister a Sunni, the speaker of parliament a Shiite, and so on. However, in time, the ethnic and religious continuity of Lebanon broke down when the Shiite population grew to surpass the others. Tensions were further heightened by the increased presence of Palestinians who built a "state within a state" after their expelsion from Jordan in 1970. The situation deteriorated into a state of civil war in 1975.

In the midst of this chaos, the Syrian government intervened under the guise of benign pretenses. Initially, the regime of Hafez Assad signed the Red Line Agreement limiting Syria's military profile in Lebanon but later violated this accord by deploying tanks and warplanes. After much bloodshed, the Syrian conquest of Lebanon was completed in 1990. Since then, the grip of Damascus over her neighbor has been tightened and institutionalized. Candidates for top political offices in Lebanon are thoroughly vetted by Damascus.

What are the Syrian gains in occupying Lebanon?

Syrian gains from occupying Lebanon are several:

• Economic self-interest. About 1.2 million untaxed and unregulated Syrian workers are employed in Lebanon generating over $3 billion for the ailing Syrian command-and-control economy. Lebanon also serves as a closed market for Syrian products, not widely desirable in other parts of the world.
• Diplomatic advantages. During Arab summits or conferences, Damascus often uses Lebanese proxies to advance its own political interests. When Syria seeks to sponsor anti-American resolutions, Lebanon will most likely do the heavy lifting.
• Geostrategic gains. Lebanon is the most direct land route to invade Israel (and vice versa). Also, Lebanon is host to a multitude of Syrian-backed terrorist organizations, which operate with greater impunity there than they do in Syria itself and use Lebanon as a launch pad for cross border attacks on Israel (Damascus would never dream of allowing terrorist groups to attack Israel directly from Syrian soil).

http://www.meforum.org/546/the-syrian-occupation-of-lebanon

RalphH- Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years.

StevenB-Israel occupied all of Lebanon? Where do you come up with these fantasies.

Wikipedia: South Lebanon Conflict 1982-2000.

After Israel invaded and savaged Lebanon in 1982,they were forced to withdraw from all but Southern Lebanon which they occupied until 2000.That's what he meant by "Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years." South Lebanon is the main area of the Shia in Lebanon and Israels invasion and then 18 year occupation of their region led to the growth and radicalization of Hezbollah.The Iranians support Hezbollah as fellow Shia oppressed by Israel.Israel sowed the wind and then reaped the wild wind.

As someone mentioned earlier Israels meddling also led to the rise of their most intractable opponent in Palestine,Hamas.Israels fear of the PLO movement during the Indifada (a resistance movement of Palestinians,many of them children during the 1980's),which is a secular organization and includes non-religious Muslims,religious Muslims,Christians Palestinians,and even a few Jewish supporters,led them to encourage the rise of fundamentalism among Palestinian Muslims,thinking it world split support from the PLO and make the Palestinians easier for Israel to control.To their horror,instead of having to deal with the PLO,which had accepted the State of Israel as an entity,and was open to negotiations.They then had another opponent in Hamas,which was not nearly as accommodating as the PLO,and believed in total resistance to occupation.Another case of Israels reaping what they sow.

A prime case of Israels destabilization of the Middle East was their Invasion of Lebanon,an event that led directly to the rise of terrorism in the region,and the problems that we have today.While there are many books that describe in detail the problem they created an easy source is Wikipedia.

Wikipedia:"With the completion of Israeli withdrawals from Sinai in March 1982, under the terms of the Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty, the Likud-led government of Israel hardened its attitude to the Arab world and became more aggressive"

"On 17 July, the Israel Air Force launched a massive attack on PLO buildings in downtown Beirut. "Perhaps as many as three hundred died, and eight hundred were wounded, the great majority of them civilians."

"the Israeli Air Force attacked the Palestinian-controlled coastal town of Damour, killing 23 people. On 9 May, Israeli aircraft again attacked targets in Lebanon. Later that same day, UNIFIL observed the firing of rockets from Palestinian positions in the Tyre region into northern Israel, but none of the projectiles hit an Israeli settlement --the gunners had been ordered to miss."

"US Secretary of State, Alexander Haig filed a report with US President Ronald Reagan on Saturday 30 January 1982 that revealed Secretary Haig's fear that Israel might, at the slightest provocation, start a war against Lebanon."

"According to Avi Shlaim, the real driving force behind the Israeli invasion to Lebanon was the defense minister Ariel Sharon. One of his aims was the destruction of PLO military infrastructure in Lebanon and undermining it as a political organization, in order to facilitate the absorption of the West Bank by Israel."

"On 3 June 1982 Israel’s ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov was shot and seriously wounded in London by terrorists belonging to the Abu Nidal terrorist organization. The organization was the longtime rival of PLO and its head was condemned to death by the PLO court, the British police reported that PLO leaders were on the "hit list" of the attackers.The PLO denied complicity in the attack but Israel retaliated with punishing air and artillery strikes against PLO targets in Lebanon. Sabra and Shatila refugees camps were bombed for four hours and the local "Gaza" hospital was hit there. About 200 people were killed during these attacks."

"Tyre and Sidon (major cities in South Lebanon, still within the 40-kilometre (25 mi) limit) were heavily damaged, and the Lebanese capital Beirut was shelled by Israeli artillery, and bombed by Israeli aircraft for ten weeks, killing PLO members though some civilians were also killed. Israeli troops captured Beirut Airport and several southern suburbs of the city in heavy fighting."

"...the Sabra and Shatila massacre in which at least 800 civilians were killed by the Phalangists,(forces allied to Israel) who themselves suffered only two casualties. Meanwhile, Israeli troops surrounded the camps with tanks and checkpoints, monitoring entrances and exits. Further, Israeli investigation by the Kahan Commission of Inquiry found that Ariel Sharon bore "personal responsibility" for failing to prevent the massacre, and for failing to act once he learned that a massacre had started, and recommended that he be removed as Defence Minister and that he never hold a position in any future Israeli government. Sharon initially ignored the call to resign, but after the death of an anti-war protester following an anti-war protest, he did resign as Israel's Defence Minister, however, he remained in Begin's cabinet as a Minister without portfolio and would subsequently be elected Israel’s 11th Prime Minister."

"In 1982, an international commission investigated into reported violations of International Law by Israel during its invasion of the Lebanon. Chairman was Seán MacBride, the other members were Richard Falk, Kader Asmal, Brian Bercusson, Géraud de la Pradelle, and Stefan Wild. The commission's report concluded that "the government of Israel has committed acts of aggression contrary to international law", that the government of Israel had no valid reasons under international law for its invasion of Lebanon, and that the Israeli authorities or forces were involved directly or indirectly in the massacres at Sabra and Shatila."

Results from the war:

• Israel - 368 dead and 2,383 wounded
• PLO - 1,500 dead and an unknown amount wounded plus around 8,000 captured
• Lebanon - civilians 17,825 dead and around 30,000 wounded.

• The Israeli-Maronite alliance dissolved, and Sharon's goal of installing a pro-Israel Christian government in Beirut was not accomplished.850,000 Christians would emigrate during the Civil War, most of them permanently.
• The invasion that also targeted many Shiite Lebanese, has brought about the switching of sides of Amal Movement, which used to fight against the PLO prior to the invasion.
• The invasion is popularly held to be the major catalyst for the creation of the Iranian and Syrian supported Hezbollah organization, which by 1991 was the sole armed militia in Lebanon not supported by Israel and by 2000 had completely replaced the vanquished PLO in Southern Lebanon.
• The Lebanese Council for Development and Reconstruction estimated the cost of the damage from the invasion at 7,622,774,000 Lebanese pounds, equivalent to US$2 billion at the time.

And more importantly directly for US citizens:

• Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden said in a videotape released on the eve of the 2004 U.S. presidential elections that he was inspired to attack the buildings of the United States by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon in which towers and buildings in Beirut were destroyed in the siege of the capital.

Thanks for another great post, Uncle Bob. I hope you don't mind, but I am copying it into my repetoire of facts, concerning Israel and it's enemies.

The information you posted, clearly illustrates the brutality and ruthlessness Isreal has employed in an attempt to reach it's goals of a greater Israel. The sad part is the Zionists that inhabit these threads, fail to connect the attacks on Lebanon, with the resulting hatred fostered by those attacks. Hezbollah, certainly doesn't need Iran to inspire themselves to resist Israeli occupation and designs on Lebanon. They are "freedom fighters" in their own land.

RalphH,

Sadly,its not that they fail to connect the attacks to current problems.Its that they don't want too.If they did then their whole,poor picked on Israel, party-line would collapse.

I don't mind at all RalphH,if you use the information I post.My whole reason for posting here is to get the truth out to more people.The more people know the truth,the less pro-Israeli posters can fool them.Many of them are good at confusing people,with lies and half-truths.But with more true,checkable information posted,they'll be sent packing.Then America will wake-up to how counter to our interests the relationship with them has become.

RalphH troll bashing Israel and raising the USS Liberty....

peeeeuuuuuuu.

I remember OUR Marines in Beirut. I remember the Cole, Iremember the Achille Lauro etc etc.

A Solution:

The *PACT* of, The THREE States of The Traditional Territories, of ROMAN Palestine.

The Kingdom of Jordan/ Jordanian Hashemite Majority, and Jordanian Sunni Minority and Christian
The State of Israel/ Israeli Jewish Majority, and Israeli Sunni Minority, and Israeli Christian
The State of Palestine (to BE)/ Palestinian Sunni Majority, and Palestinian Jewish Minority, and Christian

The Jews that ARE IN The West Bank, WHEN The State of Palestine (to BE) IS CREATED,
WILL BE *Palestinian Jews*, The Palestinian Minority Jews, to The Palestinian Majority Sunni.

ALL THREE States WILL Balance.
The THREE States of The Traditional Territories, of Traditional *ROMAN Palestine*

*PACT*- Sworn by The Three States, and Sworn by The Peoples of These THREE States
*PACT*- Sworn on the lives of The Children of The Peoples of These THREE States.

NONE of The THREE *PACT* States, of The *Roman Palestine Territories*
will give a Higher ALLEGIANCE, BUT TO The OTHER TWO States.

Inshallah
GOD's WILL

....and it matters "little", what "Others" Think...
....The ONLY People to "matter", in THIS *PACT*, ARE Jordanians, and Israelis, and Palestinians.....

MUTUAL Benefit
to These Three *PACT* States.

To Mork,

Your idea phrased a little differently,but essentially the same (A United State,some called it Israel/Palestine),was worked out by some Palestinians and Israeli Jews.The idea was a Belgium type union,or even a Swiss Canton system.But while it had more Palestinian support (since the Palestine Charter says Palestine is the home of Muslims,Christians,and Jews),except for liberal Jews it had no support in Israel.You see Zionism is a racist movement.They consider Israel not to be the state of all its citizens,but as a Jewish state only.They consider the 25% of non-Jewish Israelis as non-persons.Since they treat their own fellow citizens that way.They have even less desire to make citizens of the large Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza.They want to annex those areas eventually, once they have littered the area with illegal Israeli settlements, and then claim that with all those settlements there, they can't let it be free.Until then they are happy to rule over a occupied territory with several million people,who have no rights,no votes,no recourse against unfair treatment,a semi-slave population controlled by the law of the gun,which dooms those millions to be "hewers of wood,and drawers of water",until out of desperation they turn to violence,then can be killed,imprisoned,or expelled . So you see while it is a great idea and would bring peace to the Middle East conflict,Israeli racism prevents it.

We DO have a choice - and most Americans DO NOT want to back Israel in their fights anymore - nor do we want to send them welfare money anymore - not until they learn to get along with their neighbors.

Once again, Irene, surveys have shown that most Americans DO support Israel, including a survey right here at MSNBC.

Isreal getting along with its neighbors? You do know that Isreal often gets attacked without provocation right? Should start reading the news, and not just use your preconcieved anti semtic opinion.

MIKE, always remember: We COMPLETELY control Israel

Cassandra - AIPAC pays our politicians to squander our tax dollars. Irene is right most taxpayers don't support Israel. We need to vote out any elected official that supports, or is caught up in this tax $$$ wasting, money making sceem. I personaly believe that Iran would be a much better "friend" or ally for the USA.

cassandra most americans are idiots. look at our past and present presidents for 3 decades. sorry 4.. and no kevin Isreal controls us.

I personaly believe that Iran would be a much better "friend" or ally for the USA.

Really? You think the Iranian mullahs like the "Great Satan"?

"We DO have a choice - and most Americans DO NOT want to back Israel in their fights anymore - nor do we want to send them welfare money anymore - not until they learn to get along with their neighbors." - irene-2033073

"Love thy neighbor" and "the other cheek" are Christian concepts. We can't demand from Jews to be better Christians than Christians themselves are. After all, most Jews hadn't read the New Testament, and the ones that read it saw it as a piece of literature, not a commandment. And what exactly the Old Testament preaches about the neighbors that attack you time and again and promised to "drive Jews into the sea" and "wipe Israel off the map"? The Old Testament spells out, clearly and unequivocally, "an eye for an eye".
Unlike Arabs and Iran, Israel has the capacity to drive all Palestinians into the sea, and to wipe Iran off the map. Yet Israel not only had not done it, they never even as little as suggested that, let alone openly threatened to do that as a matter of state policy. Anybody wondered why?

1surrviivor,

"cassandra most americans are idiots."

Especially when they disagree with your views, huh?

Irene and 1surviivor need to move to Iran or Russia, they seem to appreciate being controlled by dictators and murderers instead of trying to form something that resembles an educated opinion.

Mike - I remember 9/11. I have done a lot of research on it and it is evident that Israel was behind 9/11. It was a false flag attack by Israel.

I remember 9/11. I have done a lot of research on it and it is evident that Israel was behind 9/11. It was a false flag attack by Israel.

RalphH also thinks we disected an alien at Roswell, the moon landing was a hoax, bigfoot exists, and there are monsters under his bed.

I remember 9/11. I have done a lot of research on it and it is evident that Israel was behind 9/11. It was a false flag attack by Israel.

RalphH also thinks we disected an alien at Roswell, the moon landing was a hoax, bigfoot exists, and there are monsters under his bed.

I personally think it's highly unlikely that 9/11 was a false flag attack by Israel. There's a chance their government had some involvement, but we'll never know until a proper, thorough investigation is done. If it was "terrorists", so be it, but there are a large number of unanswered questions that a real investigation might clear up.

Superskunk,

I totally agree with you.Someday there will be a good historical writer that will do a,hopefully unbiased, book on all aspects of the 9/11 attacks.But the incident is too close in time for everything to be available for research now.I really don't believe that Israel had any overt involvement with 9/11.Leaving aside any moral issues,they would have no reason to.I think they may have picked up warnings about a coming attack,as did many other intelligence services,but that's all.For them to have been a part of it,and it to come out,would be the end of any relationship we would have with Israel.They have way too much to lose for that.Anytime we are attacked they gain more influence here.So all they would need to do,is sit back and do nothing to gain from it.Before our deepening relations with Israel,America was a free and open society.Unless,in a case of going to war with one of the other superpowers,we had little to fear.Since our relationship with them,we have acquired their enemies that consider us as a target.Slowly bit by bit,we are being forced into the same garrison state mentality that reigns in Israel.They built for themselves a fortress state,with fear and military controls on all sides.They are turning America over time into that type of nation.And we are loosing the America that was the light of the world.

You should research Doctor DOV ZAKHEIM. The ZIONISTS have you afraid to believe what is right in front of your eyes.

Israel didn't do it alone. 9/11/2001 was co-operative effort. An "honor among thieves" mass murder initiation into the club kind of deal.

Cheney had been planning it, and its aftermath, for 30 years.

The alleged Al-Qaida "Muslims" weren't flying the planes when they hit the towers.

What would make you think that you could successfully "highjack" a fly-by-wire aircraft in a country's airspace which has had the technical capability to cancel out your inputs from the cockpit and over-ride its flight control computer remotely, for years? Wouldn't your "mastermind" planner have looked into the possibility that the most technologically advanced nation on the planet might have found a "classified" way to defeat hijackings of technologically advanced aircraft? If you had doubts, wouldn't you book your tickets on less sophisticated aircraft?

Hey - remember 1967 and the USS Liberty? If not, go and inform yourself before you start spouting off about US and American relations. Israel IS NOT and WAS NEVER an ally of the US.

Thank you Irene. Never forget the USS Liberty, 8 June 1967. Israel is NO ally for us.

no they aren't. but for some reason christians want to show them they way.

Israel IS NOT and WAS NEVER an ally of the US.

Yet the two nations are always cooperating with each other. Israel refrained from attacking Iraq when Saddam attacked Israel with scud missiles.

It seems that you prefer the Islamic radicals and their despotic regimes to the free nation of Israel.

Are you jealous of Jews?

USS Liberty, you say? The event had been investigated by US President, Joint Chiefs of Staff, both Houses of US Congress, Naval Court of inquiry, CIA, and all of them came to the same conclusion - it was the case of friendly fire because of mistaken identity. Israeli investigation came to the same conclusion.

There's no armed force that is free from such a mistake. Here are just a few relatively recent examples. USAF Warthogs strafed British armored unit in Iraq, 1 Brit KIA, 5 severely wounded, 2 tanks destroyed. US Army Ranger, former NFL player Pat Tillman was shot and killed in Afghanistan by friendly fire. Most IDF losses in Cast Lead operation also resulted from friendly fire.

Israel admitted the error and paid compensation. Case closed.

AnonymousUser,

"USS Liberty, you say? The event had been investigated by US President, Joint Chiefs of Staff, both Houses of US Congress, Naval Court of inquiry, CIA, and all of them came to the same conclusion - it was the case of friendly fire because of mistaken identity. Israeli investigation came to the same conclusion."

I agree, but even if it was not a case of mistaken identity, in my opinion the attack would have been justified. The USS Liberty was an intelligence collection ship that was monitoring the military communications of both Israel and the Arabs during wartime. No country in its right mind will tolerate being spied on when it is in the heat of combat for its survival. Being spied on is intolerable enough to most countries even in peace time.

The Liberty incident was 45 years ago. Does ANYONE think first off that the people who made the screwups that led to this accident are still in any way shape or form in a position of power/command/authority in Israel? Less then twenty years after fighting a TOTAL WAR against Japan and Germany they were our fervent allies. This was 45 years ago and wasn't a total war, wasn't a limited war, it was an ACCIDENT of which Israel paid a very large sum of money to the families of those that were killed, those that were injured, and the us government for the damages caused. At this point I can not fathom what more Israel could do to right this mistake. The only logical conclusion then is that the individuals that cite this incident use it to back and try to justify their racism. Any of you white hooded, swastika wearing, al-qaeda loving, excuses for human beings want to justify your mindless hate feel free to make an ARTICULATED statement as to what more Israel could possibly do to make things right in your mind short of ceasing to exist and pulling a Jonestown.

To all the idiots that claim Israel took the land illegally, you are wrong. The Palestinian Mandate was under British control in the wake of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI per the direction of the League of Nations. When the mandate expired after WWII it was divided per a United Nation's plan. The Muslims did not like the formation of a Jewish state so they attacked it. Israel won and as such was entitled to any land/spoils won. Only an idiot would fight a defensive war and then when they won give the land which forms their country away. Under many people's argument that Israel stole the land and has to give it back, then the US has to give our entire country away as well. Does anyone really want to try that argument, or will you simply accept the double standard that is a result of your anti-semitism?

I guess I have to post this timeline of the Liberty incident again. It is important to note the comments of the president, Lyndon Johnson, who was secretly Jewish on his mothers side, for 2 generations. If anyone disputes his Jewishness, I will be happy to post proof.

There is a timeline at the website which was set up to honor the American victims of the Isareli and U.S. Military. Most of it follows.

June 8, 1967, Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty. They kill 34 American servicemen, wounding 171 others. It will be the highest casualty rate ever inflicted on a U.S. naval vessel, with 7 out of every 10 crew members killed or injured. It will also be the only peacetime attack on a U.S. naval vessel that, to this day, the Congress of the United States of America formally refuses to investigate.

2 June 1967. Liberty departs Rota at top speed of 18 knots en route to a point 13 miles off the Gaza Strip, well within international waters.

5 June 1967, 7:45 (all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first. Captain McGonagle asks Vice Admiral William Martin at Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer as an armed escort and auxiliary communication center, noting that Liberty's "self defense capability limited to four .50 caliber machine guns and small arms."

6 June 1967. Admiral Martin replies "Liberty is clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation . . . Request for escort denied."

7 June 1967, shortly before midnight. Office of the U.S. Defense Attaché in Tel Aviv sends coded message to U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) that Israel intends to attack the Liberty if her course is not changed.

8 June 1967:

1000: Two unmarked, rocket-armed, delta-winged jets circle Liberty three times. Liberty officers can count rockets and see the pilots, but see no identifying marks on the plane. The jets radio Israeli headquarters that the ship is flying an American flag.
1030: Israeli "flying boxcar" with Israeli markings circles Liberty at about 200 feet. Crew member Larry Weaver says, "I was actually able to wave to the co-pilot, a fellow on the right-hand side of the plane. He waved back, and actually smiled at me."
1055: Pinchas Pinchasy, naval liaison officer at Israeli air force headquarters, reports to Naval Headquarters that the ship cruising slowly off El Arish is "an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy, named Liberty, whose marking was GTR-5."
1100 & 1130: Israeli reconnaissance aircraft again circle Liberty.
1205: Three Israeli motor torpedo boats leave Ashdod at high speed headed toward Liberty. They are followed by Israeli air force fighters, loaded with 30mm cannon ammunition, rockets, and napalm.
1215 & 1245: Israeli reconnaissance aircraft again circle Liberty.
1341: Israeli torpedo boats spot Liberty and call for an immediate air strike.
1358: Two unmarked delta-winged Mirage jets attack Liberty. After taking out gun mounts, they target ship's antennae and bridge with heat-seeking missiles.
1405: Three unmarked Dassault Mystère IIIC jets attack with napalm and rockets. Ship tries to contact Sixth Fleet headquarters, but five of Liberty's six shore circuits are jammed. Radio operator manages to send distress signal from Captain McGonagle: "Under attack by unidentified jet aircraft, require immediate assistance." Attack lasts approximately 22 minutes, involving 30 to 35 sorties, killing nine men and wounding around 60. Israeli pilot reports to base: "Great, wonderful, she's burning, she's burning."
1409: Captain Joe Tully of the USS Saratoga acknowledges call for help, dispatches four F-4 Phantom jets, and informs Liberty that help is on the way. Within minutes U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert MacNamara orders rescue jets to return: : "Tell Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately." Rear Admiral Geis relays message and tells them to re-launch jets in 90 minutes.
1424: Three French-built 62-ton Israeli motor torpedo boats approach Liberty in attack formation. Because the Israeli fighters had destroyed the American flag, Captain McGonagle orders the signalman to hoist the "holiday ensign," the largest flag the ship has.
1435: Torpedo boats launch five German-made 19-inch torpedoes at Liberty. One torpedo strikes starboard directly into NSA area, accounting for 25 of the 34 men who would be killed. Torpedo boats then circle, machine-gunning the ship with armor-piercing projectiles for another 40 minutes.
1450: Commander of Sixth Fleet orders carriers USS America and USS Saratoga to send aircraft to defend Liberty.
1500: NSA Sigint Command Center receives first notice of the attack from either the America or Saratoga: "USS Liberty has been reportedly torpedoed by unknown source in Med near 32N 33E. Request examine all communications for possible reaction/reflections and report accordingly."
1505: Message sent to Liberty from Sixth Fleet: "Sending aircraft to cover you. Surface units on the way." Liberty is off the air and does not receive the message.
1511: First "official" notice that Liberty is under attack reaches National Military Command Center in Washington.
1515: After the order to "prepare to abandon ship" comes over the loudspeaker system, the lifeboats are lowered into the water. Israeli torpedo boats move in closer and fire on them, as well as those still on deck, making them all unusable. "I watched with horror as the floating life rafts were riddled with holes," recalled Lieutenant Lloyd Painter, in charge of the evacuation. Said Petty Officer Rowley, who also witnessed the event: "They didn't want anyone to live." After destroying the life rafts, the Israeli boats departed. Next, two Israeli SA-321 Super Frelon Hornet assault helicopters carrying soldiers in battle dress circle ship several times, then depart.
1520: Commander of Sixth Fleet announces that 12 aircraft will be launched at 1545 to arrive near Liberty at 1715.
1532: Walt Rostow, President Johnson's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, notifies the president of the attack.
1536: Israeli torpedo boats return, then leave.
1545: USS Saragota and America launch second rescue flights.
1555: Liberty regains its transmitter; still has no receiver.
1600: Liberty transmits: "Flash, flash, flash. I pass in the blind. We are under attack by aircraft and high-speed surface craft." Deputy Director Louis Tordella is informed by Deputy Director of Joint Reconnaissance Center, Captain Vineyard, that "consideration was then being given by some unnamed Washington authorities to sink the Liberty in order that newspaper men would be unable to photograph her and thus inflame public opinion against the Israelis." Tordella makes an "impolite" comment about the idea, writes a memo of the conversation for the record, and stores it away.
1605: Liberty transmits: "Request immediate assistance. Torpedo hit starboard side."
1614: American embassy relays Israeli apology to White House, Department of State, and Sixth Fleet that an unidentified "maybe Navy" ship has been erroneously attacked.
1615: Two unidentified jets approach Liberty, then veer off.
1630: Israeli jets and three torpedo boats return, offer assistance. Captain McGonagle refuses their help. Boats leave after 12 minutes.
1639: Secretary of Defense McNamara again orders rescue planes recalled; order is confirmed by President Johnson because "we are not going to embarrass an ally." Naval Air Attaché at U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, Commander Ernest Castle, is summoned to Israeli Defense Forces headquarters.
1717: Deputy Secretary of Defense orders that all news releases on attack are to be made in Washington. Soon after, Israeli helicopter approaches Liberty and requests permission to land. McGonagle refuses. Helicopter departs.
1729: Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, commander of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean, protests decision to recall rescue planes to Secretary of Defense McNamara. At that point President Johnson comes on the phone and says he didn't care if the ship sunk, he would not embarrass his allies. Admiral Geis tells Lt. Commander David Lewis, head of the Liberty's NSA group, of the remark, but asks him not to repeat it until after he dies. It is a promise Lewis will honor.
1915: Captain McGonagle, wounded and exhausted, dictates first report on estimated casualties: 10 dead; 15 severely wounded; 75 total wounded; undetermined missing. His estimates would prove low.
9 June 1967:

After midnight: Soviet guided missile destroyer sends flashing-light message in English: "Do you need help?" Liberty responds: "No thank you." Soviets answer: "I will stand by in case you need me."

0600: USS Navy destroyers Davis and Massey arrive.
Mid-morning: Dead and wounded are evacuated by helicopter.
1450: Israeli Lt. Col. Michael Bloch telephones Commander Castle that Liberty, because it was not flying a flag, had been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Queseir. State Department assures Congress that attack was accidental.
10 June 1967: Vice Admiral McCain orders Rear Admiral Isaac Kidd to convene Navy Court of Inquiry.

11 June 1967: Admiral Kidd boards Liberty with small staff to head Navy Court of Inquiry.

14 June 1967: Liberty arrives in Malta. Total news blackout imposed. Rear Admiral Kidd warns crew: "You are never, repeat never, to discuss this with anyone, not even your wives. If you do, you will be court-martialed and will end your lives in prison or worse." Secretary of Defense McNamara informs media that, "Department of Defense will have no further comment."

15 June 1967: Secretary of State Dean Rusk tells NATO ambassadors in Luxembourg that Israel's attack was deliberate. His remark is reported in European, but not U.S. papers.

18 June 1967: Israeli Court of Inquiry exonerates Israeli government and all those involved, saying that its torpedo boats erroneously reported the Liberty's speed at 30 knots instead of 5, and that the Liberty flew no flag and had no identifying markings. Later, Israel will honor Motor Torpedo Boat 203, the one that fired the deadly torpedo at the Liberty, by putting its wheel and bell on display in its naval museum, among those maritime items of which it is most proud.

July 1967: Shortly after the burial of six Liberty crewmen in Arlington National Cemetery, a monument is erected describing the six as having "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean." Liberty survivors complain that the marking is evasive and improper.

September 1967: State Department legal adviser Carl Salans finds many discrepancies with the Israeli report. His report is classified Top Secret.

11 June 1968: Captain McGonagle is awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. The Medal, usually presented by the President of the United States at the White House, is presented by the Secretary of the Navy during a hastily arranged ceremony at the Washington D.C. Navy Yard. Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, the Chief of Naval Operations, calls the way the Medal is presented a back-handed slap. "Everyone else received their medal at the White House," Moorer will later observe. "President Johnson must have been concerned about the reaction of the Israeli lobby."

1980: National Security Agency Director Marshall Carter tells investigative author James Bamford that, regarding the attack on the Liberty, "There was no other answer than that it was deliberate."

1981: National Security Agency review, "Attack on a Sigint Collector, the USS Liberty Incident," rejects the Israeli Court of Inquiry's "mistake" theory and accuses Israeli fighter pilots and torpedo boat crewmen and commanders of perjury.

1982: Israeli senior lead pilot approaches former Congressman Pete McCloskey and admits that he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He said he refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

6 October 1982: A new headstone for the six Liberty crew members at Arlington National Cemetery is unveiled. This one reads: "Killed USS Liberty June 8, 1967."

1986: Lt. Commander Walter H. Jacobsen writes in Naval Law Review: "To speculate on the motives of an attack group that uses unmarked planes and deprives helpless survivors of life rafts raises disturbing possibilities, including the one that the Liberty crew was not meant to survive the attack..."

6 November 1991: Columnists Evans and Novak publish interview with Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967, in which Porter says that during or immediately after the attack on the Liberty the CIA station chief showed him transcripts of intercepted Israeli messages. One has Israel ordering the attack on the Liberty, another has an Israeli pilot replying it's an American ship. When the order to attack is repeated, the pilot insists he can see the American flag. The pilot is told again: "Attack it."

8 June 1997: Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, appointed Chief of Naval Operations shortly after the attack on the Liberty, tells a reunion of survivors: "I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American."

November 1998: Captain McGonagle breaks his long silence: "After many years I finally believe that the attack was deliberate. I don't think there has been an adequate investigation of the incident . . . The flag was flying prior to the attack..." McGonagle will die four months later, on March 3, 1999.

Ralph,
Do you really think you are smarter and better informed than US President, Pentagon, CIA, and Congress, combined? LBJ is a Jew? Who told you that? Elvis Presley, or maybe Jack Kennedy? Take your meds.

From Wikipedia:"Johnson was maternally descended from a pioneer Baptist clergyman, George Washington Baines, who pastored some eight churches in Texas as well as others in Arkansas and Louisiana. Baines was also the president of Baylor University during the American Civil War. George Baines was the grandfather of Johnson's mother, Rebekah Baines Johnson (1881–1958).
Johnson's grandfather Samuel Ealy Johnson, Sr. was raised as a Baptist. Subsequently, in his early adulthood, he became a member of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). In his later years the grandfather became a Christadelphian; Johnson's father also joined the Christadelphian Church toward the end of his life.[7] Later, as a politician, Johnson was influenced in his positive attitude towards Jews by the religious beliefs that his family, especially his grandfather, had shared with him (see Operation Texas)."

If that's true,then they shouldn't mind us sitting this one out then.Let them handle things with their own money for a change.Send the B team up to bat,while the A team rests.

AnonymousUser,

"Do you really think you are smarter and better informed than US President, Pentagon, CIA, and Congress, combined? LBJ is a Jew? Who told you that? Elvis Presley, or maybe Jack Kennedy? Take your meds."

It was probably the Easter Bunny who told him that. The Easter Bunny is the one who told me there is no such thing as Santa Claus, but I know better than to fall for that! :)

@ AA and Mickey - Here is proof. He was Jewish on his maternal grandparents side, making him a Jew. A closet Jew, but a Jew none-the-less. If you look at his adminisrtation, he surrounded himself with Jews.

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/36262/friend-ally-savior-revealing-lbj-s-jewish-ties/

Research into Johnson's personal history indicates that he inherited his concern for the Jewish people from his family. His aunt Jessie Johnson Hatcher, a major influence on LBJ, was a member of the Zionist Organization of America. As a young boy, Lyndon watched his politically active grandfather "Big Sam" and father "Little Sam" seek clemency for Leo Frank, the Jewish victim of a blood libel in Atlanta. Frank was lynched by a mob in 1915, and the Ku Klux Klan in Texas threatened to kill the Johnsons. Johnson's speechwriter later stated, "Johnson often cited Leo Frank's lynching as the source of his opposition to both anti-Semitism and isolationism."

Lyndon Johnson’s maternal ancestors, the Huffmans, apparently migrated to Frederick, Maryland from Germany sometime in the mid-eighteenth century. Later they moved to Bourbon, Kentucky and eventually settled in Texas in the mid-to-late nineteenth century.¹⁰

According to Jewish law, if a person’s mother is Jewish, then that person is automatically Jewish, regardless of the father’s ethnicity or religion. The facts indicate that both of Lyndon Johnson’s great-grandparents, on the maternal side, were Jewish. These were the grandparents of Lyndon’s mother, Rebecca Baines.¹¹ Their names were John S. Huffman and Mary Elizabeth Perrin.¹² John Huffman’s mother was Suzanne Ament, a common Jewish name. Perrin is also a common Jewish name.

Huffman and Perrin had a daughter, Ruth Ament Huffman,¹³ who married Joseph Baines¹⁴ and together they had a daughter, Rebekah Baines,¹⁵ Lyndon Johnson’s mother. The line of Jewish mothers can be traced back three generations in Lyndon Johnson’s family tree. There is little doubt that he was Jewish.

RalphH,

"Here is proof. He was Jewish on his maternal grandparents side, making him a Jew. A closet Jew, but a Jew none-the-less."

That reminds me of the old racist argument in the South about how much black blood it takes before a person of mixed race should be classified as black. Is it half, one quarter, one eighth, one sixteenth? At any rate, it strikes me as being just as irrelevant as that was.

Johnson was Jewish - That is a fact, beyong dispute. He didn't do all those things for Israel, because he was a redneck Texan.

RalphH,

The fact that he had a Jewish ancestor does not make him Jewish. He had no sense of Jewish identity. His identity was Christian as "AnonymousUser" pointed out already in his post #6.9. The Jews are not a race. They are a religion and a people with a sense of collective identity. If you do not adhere to the Jewish religion or do not share in the collective identity of the Jewish people, you are not a Jew regardless of your ancestry. I know it would probably rattle your teeth right out of your head to find it out, but you may also have a Jew somewhere in your ancestry, too. How far back can you trace your ancestry? If you found out you had a Jew somewhere in your ancestry, would that make you a Jew?

Oh my, a quarter of Jewish blood!  That means that even in Nazi Germany he'd be spared from deportation to Auschwitz, though he could not expect to make a career in any state controlled activity (hint: almost any industrial or humanitarian activity there was).  Wait, if he'd be in aircraft-related industry and talented he could make a career nevertheless.  As Goering said once in response to a list of alleged Jews to be investigated (tearing it up): "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich" (I decide who is a Jew).
See, Ralph, that makes you even more of a Nazi than Goering was.

Anonymous says,

"Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich" (I decide who is a Jew)."

Those same words were said by Karl Lueger,populist mayor of Vienna.Known for his anti-semitic speeches,when he was asked why so many of his friends were Jewish.

I gotta believe the USN is more disciplined than that Jud.

Aussi, I spent a few weeks R&R in Sydney a few years ago and still have pleasant memories of my stay there, but I digress on your assessment of the US Navy. Have you noticed that there are no live-fire exercises between the two forces. It seems the Israelis are more at home stopping and boarding aid ships to Gaza or shooting up the Palestinians on the beaches rather than assisting us in the Gulf?

I'm guessing that's only coz you already have more than enough muscle, and any help that might be offered by Israel would only serve to inflame tensions in the area. Quite simple really, what say you mate...

And what are you suggesting? That the USN is ill-disciplined? We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one my friend.

Again given Israel's record of killing Islamics with glee, Israel chooses not to participate simply because the Israeli navy would be in harm's way in the american way ... not all americans have bought into this Israel is our only friend in the Middle East scenaro. Actually if one tries to be neutral and just look at the facts rather than to take sides, it is the Israeli-firsters who stand out in the crowd looking more like war mongers than those who seek negotiations and peace over dead bodies.

I'm inclined to define 'glee' as the dancing in the streets that most of us saw after the towers fell over in New York. I'll not forget...

@Judson ----- "Again, given Israel's record of killing Islamics with glee..." ***** Uh, which country has, for years now, routinely lopped rockets into which other country on a nearly daily basis--and often several times a day? Which countries routinely brainwash their own children to suicide bomb which other countries' market places, schools, hospitals, etc? Which countries had dancing in the streets on 911? etc., etc., etc.

Hey Jud, you dozed off there or what? C'mon back here...

It is amazing to me how such hatred for a people that you have undoubtedly never met very many members of, can cloud your understanding and grasp of the reality of what's going on in the world to the point that you would take sides with a group that would kill you and your children if given the chance for nothing more than not being a Muslim, (and this means EVERY non Muslim in ALL countries) unless of course you are already Muslim, then that would explain your antiquated, lopsided views.

Wow Bizzybeez, really? It's amazing how much your hatred of Muslims that you have undoubtedly never meet many of can cloud your understanding and grasp of reality of what's really going on in the world. Your comment shows a basic lack of knowledge and the fear that comes as a result of your ignorance having to do with Muslims and Islam. There are 3 billion Muslims in the world, so by your bigoted view shouldn't a lot more of us be dead right now as the result of Muslim violence. There are rabbis paid by the State of Israel that have issued rulings that no house or land should be sold to non-Jews, including Chritians, and others have written books that state that it is ok to kill all Goyim (any non-Jew), but I guess in your blind hatred of Muslims you wouldn't be able to see these things.

Yes, because it was undoubtedly the Israeli's that killed all those people on 9/11 and obviously not Muslims. And as far as more of us should be dead from Muslim violence? Wait.

You might be right !

Thats all great Tony, but we know Iran does not have a nuclear weapon and know Iran cannot even make a nuclear weapon 3 years and that is only if they decide thy want to make one. Read below:

January 2011: When Meir Dagan steps down as director of Israel’s Mossad spy agency, he says that Iran would not be able to produce a nuclear weapon until 2015. "Israel should not hasten to attack Iran, doing so only when the sword is upon its neck," Mr. Dagan warned. Later he said that attacking Iran would be "a stupid idea.... The regional challenge that Israel would face would be impossible."

February 2011: National intelligence director James Clapper affirms in testimony before Congress that “Iran is keeping the option open to develop nuclear weapons in part by developing various nuclear capabilities and better position it to produce such weapons, should it choose to do so," Mr. Clapper said. "We do not know, however, if Iran will eventually decide to build nuclear weapons."

Doesn't ANYONE here, read their morning newspaper?!

Saudi Arabia, is BACKING the U.S., with BIG MONEY,
that The Saudis can Sleep easier;

I'll BET that the Saudis even SEND Money, under cover, TO ISRAEL;

NOTHING would make the Saudis *HAPPIER*, than to KNOCK-OUT Iran, from getting a Nuke!!

Saudi Arabia is Sunni; Iran is Shi'a: If ANY of You, do NOT UNDERSTAND, then,

You get a "BIG DUH !!"

Doesn't ANYONE here, read their morning newspaper?!

Saudi Arabia, is BACKING the U.S., with BIG MONEY,
that The Saudis can Sleep easier;

I'll BET that the Saudis even SEND Money, under cover, TO ISRAEL;

NOTHING would make the Saudis *HAPPIER*, than to KNOCK-OUT Iran, from getting a Nuke!!

Saudi Arabia is Sunni; Iran is Shi'a: If ANY of You, do NOT UNDERSTAND, then,

You get a "BIG DUH !!"

The Israelis are far, FAR smarter than the Iranian goons are (and can ever hope to be) too. They'll be fine.

Excuse my language but iSRAEL is a piece of SH*T when compared with the United States!!!

No hurt feelings!!!! Happy New Year! Ho ho ho!!!!

Mtex, we COMPLETELY control Israel's military. Israel's military would not exist but for us

Kevin, believe that if you want but Israel will take care of it's self without US help

Mtex,

So,you really believe Israel has a better Airforce than our own country does.Wow,that must piss off the Pentagon.We may need to start using that 3BILLION in military aid we give Israel every year,to revamp our Airforce.

Mtex,

I will give you that the Israelis are smarter than we are.Over the years they have manged to fleece us out of untold BILLONS in aid.While at the same time convincing posters here that they're doing us a favor in taking it.

American Eagle-2790828 / Your comment, *shakes head* however right in your mind, is completely out of whack. Every country has assassinated or will assassinate citizens, scientists, government officials, etc... that they see fit to in order to further their political or religious agenda, and those who seek to "Dominate the world". H'mm now i'm thinking "Pinky and the Brain" =) Snork!

They can and do, because we the people who do not hold the power can not stop it. Go out and take a real good look around this world, it is already a complete f'n mess. Nothing will change this earth unless we decide to. Until "humans" stop acting like apes and actually put all the ridiculous religions and political differences aside, this world will never be the utopia you seem to believe it is.

And for all you that will be upset w that comment, think of this.. every organized religion and political faction as far back as the day it started, has participated in some kind of assassination, war or persecution of others who do not "follow" their beliefs, (read the history books).

When a human is told that they are less of a person because they don't believe the same ideology as others, well that is where the problems starts.

Although with that said. If we were the worlds police of all the countries that participate in assassinations, then the US would be right up on our own list.

No country - INCLUDING ISRAEL - should be allowed to practice the assassination business.

Yet Obama did just that, didn't he?

I agree with Tiny Tim....Call me an athiest if you like, but I think religions are where most of the world's problems have come from. ALL of them. Sure it's really all about power in the end, but that is what religion was designed to do from the start, control the people through coersion. Let's THINK people!!! Don't just do what you're told! Look it up! Read! Decide for yourself!!!

Matter of fact, word on the street is the CIA pulled off the hit...

" The word on the street" ????? Oh thats too funny!

" The word on the street" You mean Iran's baseless claim?

Cassandra wrote- face of Iran's barrage of provocations: announcing its nuclear capacity,

Please, Cassandra, when did Iran announce its nuclear capacity? They have no nuclear weapons, None. Explain this - January 2011: When Meir Dagan steps down as director of Israel’s Mossad spy agency, he says that Iran would not be able to produce a nuclear weapon until 2015. "Israel should not hasten to attack Iran, doing so only when the sword is upon its neck," Mr. Dagan warned. Later he said that attacking Iran would be "a stupid idea.... The regional challenge that Israel would face would be impossible."

Thanks Retired SFC. They also killed Prof Bull.

Remember the USS Vincennes.

Remember the USS Stark.

What does the USS Vincennes or the USS Stark have to do with Israel. Nothing. Just remember the USS Liberty, 8 June 1967. It was a deliberate criminal attack on a US ship. 34 US sailors killed.

The USS Liberty has become nothing more than a Red Herring, thanks to the likes you.

What does the USS Vincennes or the USS Stark have to do with Israel.

The USS Vincennes, with superior equipment, in a non-wartime environment, mistook an Iranian airliner for a fighter plane. We killed 290 civilians.

The USS Stark was hit twice with Exocet missiles, after an Iraqi warplane attacked. Thirty seven sailors killed, and the ship was out of action.

Yet, I don't hear you bitching about those incidents.

Just the Liberty, mistaken for an Egyptian vessel, in a war zone, at the height of frenzied hostilities with all of Israel's neighbors....in an existential all-out war.

It was a deliberate criminal attack on a US ship.

A falsehood.

Other than the Liberty, why other reasons do you have for hating Jews and Israel so much?

All I see from you is the same post, again and again....the Liberty.

Oh, that and your hatred for Israel and Jews.

Recently, NATO killed a whole bunch of Pakistani civilians. It was accidental.

Why aren't you whining about that?

I didn't know that you cared so much for Pakistan Steven-B ... but Pakistan didn't try to sink one of our navy ships and kill 34 of our sailors like Israel did. And if they had done so, you can be sure we would not be helping them to kill more people. Its not Israel that people dislike so much but the behavior of some Israelis who are psychopaths.

but Pakistan didn't try to sink one of our navy ships and kill 34 of our sailors like Israel did.

And the USN killed 230 Iranian civilians. The Vincennes is a Ticonderoga class ship, with very sophisticated sensors and technology. That didn't prevent the tragedy from taking place.

The Liberty was in a war zone, at the height of frantic hostilities between Israel and no less than 6 antagonists. The Israelis attacked a vessel that had no business being there, and they didn't have the time or technology to assess the situation.

Kind of like sticking your hand into a bag of angry cats; you're bound to be scratched if you do.

The US has innumerable incidents of friendly fire, including Apache helicopters attacking US ground forces, American bombers hitting US soldiers on the ground etc.

StevenB says:

"The Liberty was in a war zone, at the height of frantic hostilities between Israel and no less than 6 antagonists. The Israelis attacked a vessel that had no business being there, and they didn't have the time or technology to assess the situation"

That sounds very reasonable.But its just not true.I figure no matter what anyone says to prove you wrong,you won't believe them,StevenB.I believe you are a,Israel-first man,so your not looking for truth,just to support Israel.But there are people here that really don't know the truth and are searching for the truth.So I'll just post the truth about the attack for them.

The USS Liberty was in international water's off the coast of Egypt in June 1967.It was a US research ship,which means,like some of our ships do around the world today,it was listening in on communications of other nations.The Arab-Israeli war was going on,so they were ordered to stay in international waters and where in the process of leaving the area when attacked.Earlier,Israeli planes had flown over the ship to check it out.As well as,the American flag flying,and the ID numbers on the ship,the crew reports that they were close enough that they exchanged waves with the pilots,so there was no question from the crew that the Israelis knew who they were.

Wikipedia:Attack survivors contacted in 2007, by John M. Crewdson for a Chicago Tribune article about the attack, "to a man" rejected Israel's mistaken identity explanation.

The ship was attacked by Israeli jets and Israeli torpedo boats,when it was finished,34 American sailors lay dead,172 wounded and the ship heavily damaged.The White House for political reasons accepted Israels claims of mistaken identity.and ordered the military accordingly.The Naval inquiry found as the White House wanted,though many people totally disagreed.

Wikipedia: "The unprovoked attack on the Liberty constitutes a flagrant act of gross negligence for which the Israeli Government should be held completely responsible, and the Israeli military personnel involved should be punished." and from Captain Boston JAGC "The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as 'murderous bastards.' It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident."

From Dean Rusk American Secretary of State at the time:"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous" and American Senator Bourke B. Hickenlooper: "From what I have read I can't tolerate for 1 minute that this [attack] was an accident."

Because of Israels influence here in the US within our government the coverup was accepted and Israel only paid damages for the victims, and for the ship.No one was held accountable for the murders.

One question that has always disturbed people about the attack was,why.Why would Israel attack an American ship.The first attack on Americans in the Middle East and it came from Israel,our supposed "friend". Historians have offered a couple of possible reasons for the attack,but unless Israel were to release their documents it won't be known for certain which one it was.Two reasons that were offered were:

1. “Israel clearly did not want the U.S. government to know too much about its dispositions for attacking Syria, initially planned for June 8, but postponed for 24 hours. It should be pointed out that the attack on the Liberty occurred on June 8, whereas on June 9 at 3 AM, Syria announced its acceptance of the cease-fire. Despite this, at 7 AM, that is, four hours later, Israel’s minister of defense, Moshe Dayan, “gave the order to go into action against Syria.” He further writes that timely knowledge of this decision and preparatory moves toward it “might have frustrated Israeli designs for the conquest of Syria’s Golan Heights” and, provides“a plausible thesis that Israel deliberately decided to incapacitate the signals-collecting American ship and leave no one alive to tell the story of the attack.

2.a former ABC News producer, in his 2001 book Body of Secrets, proposes a different possible motive for a deliberate attack: to prevent the discovery of a massacre by the IDF of Egyptian prisoners of war that was allegedly taking place at the same time in the nearby town of El-Arish. In 1995, mass graves of Egyptian soldiers were discovered outside of El-Arish, and IDF veterans have admitted that prisoners of war were murdered in the 1967 War. According to Alexander Cockburn, Israeli reporter Gabriel Bron, a former IDF soldier allegedly witnessed the massacre, "The Egyptian POWs were ordered to dig pits, then army police shot them to death". A mass grave of 30 Egyptian soldiers was found in the Sinai peninsula in 2008.

So,the attack was not an accident as pro-Israeli posters would have people believe.But as to which reason was Israels for the attack one may never know.But what is known is that 34 Americans were killed and 172 wounded,with no one ever punished for this crime.The power of the Israel lobby is very great in our country.But now at least you viewers can behold our "ally" Israel as they really are.

Thank you Uncle Bob.

bizz, correct. That is why this whole dispute will be resolved in a fascinating advanced game of international diplomatic chess

mike, yes, it's called powerful Israel supporters

mas, that would be like soooo boring