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Subscribe to RSSPADANG, Indonesia -- A 30-year-old Indonesian civil servant who was viciously attacked by a mob after posting on Facebook that "God doesn't exist" is now threatened with jail time for blasphemy.
“He has triggered unrest among local residents," Dharmasraya Police Chief Chairul Aziz told The Jakarta Post on Friday.
The man, identified as Alexander, was arrested Friday on charges of blasphemy for his writings on his Facebook page. He had created a Facebook fan page titled Ateis Minang (Minang Atheist) and gained more than 1,238 Facebook "likes" before it was taken down from the social network site, according to the Post.
On his page, Alexander wrote about his Muslim upbringing, how he didn't believe in angels, demons, heaven or hell and how he stopped practicing his faith in 2008, according to media reports. He posted comments regarding the Islamic faith, including "God doesn't exist" and "If God exists, why do bad things happen? There should only be good things if God is merciful."
Aziz said Indonesia's Council of Ulema, the ruling Islamic authority, charged Alexander with defiling Islam by using passages from the Quran to denounce God, The Telegraph reported on Friday.
If convicted of blasphemy, Alexander could face up to five years in prison.
Dozens of residents in his hometown in Pulau Punjung, West Sumatra province, stormed into Alexander's office on Wednesday and carried on their heated debate over religion, police said. Alexander was beaten, including by some of his colleagues.
Dharmasraya Regent Adi Gunawan told the Jakarta Post Alexander he has not taken any action to remove the man from his job on the planning board.
“I will await the legal process and decide later about his employment status,” Adi told the newspaper.
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It's things like this that make me think the concept of ours being a civilization is laughable. The same nonsense goes on even here in the United States. It would shock me none to see trials for blasphemy here within five years.
Effin idiots the whole lot of them. Some merciful God and his teachings, huh? Religion is a tool to keep people in line and he was out of line, so the merciful believers much make an example out of him, that way no one else is brave enough to question their shame organization. Absolutely disgusting!
Sometimes, you just want to take the religious extremists and say:
"Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick...!"
Because that's all that will work.
Then you get those who quietly practice their religion who are mocked, riciduled, and made fun of. Tebow for example. The extreme fundamentalism in the U.S. is caused by the people who try to take God away from others.
Then you get those who quietly practice their religion who are mocked, riciduled, and made fun of. Tebow for example. The extreme fundamentalism in the U.S. is caused by the people who try to take God away from others.
Don't worry Matty - if the Republicans get elected we'll be right on par with Indonesia
Bad example Matty, Tebow never was 'quietly' practicing his religion...
Tebow quietly practising his religion? Are you f'ing kidding me? He uses his position as a national figure to practice his religion very publicly every chance he gets! I don't think you could possibly have picked a worse example there matty boy.
Yet another superstitio absurdissima of the heathens: Anthropoid stragglers still engaged in evolutionary archaic monkey business.
SinisterPhnx: why even bother...it's aways the no believer that are causing the religious to behave badly.
Matty13
Atheists do not want to take anything away from anyone! All they say is that they do not believe in the existence of any deity, and most definitely not in the worldly organizations that have been built, by man, around those deities! Anyone is free to believe what they want to, just leave us alone, they say! Do not force us to follow your beliefs, they say! That's all, nothing more, nothing less! Capiche?
JahMan, the only way I can make sense out of the two comments you posted is to assume the second one is sarcasm, but I've got to say, at first it didn't read that way.
If there is a God, then if God disagrees with what this man said, He'll take him out. Why would God employ a group of fundamentalist thugs to do the job when He is The All-Mighty?
Tebow as quite? u kidding right? he quoted scripture on his face while playing football that show on national television, viewed by millions.
Sure people ridicule him and such. it is his right to practice his religion. it is our rights to ridicule him, but you dont see anyone physically assault him or jail him.
so let me get this straight. If let say during a game with Tebow and fans rush the stage and fight each other because of different opinion on religion, you are gonna arrest Tebow because he caused civil unrest?
Thank god we still have laws and order in US of A.
No Matty, the fundamentalists' extremism is all of their own making. I agree that the criticism of Tebow is unwarranted; we have freedom of religion in this country, he can live as he wants.
But pushback against fundamentalists who try to push THEIR religious beliefs on everybody else by force of law, e.g., anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage legislation, is not trying to take God away from them. That's just other peoples' right to live as they want.
Thank God we don't live in a theocratic society...
See, that's why the separation between religion and government should be absolute. Bible banging koran mumbling torah jittering busybodies the lot of them, trying to stick their noses into other peoples' lives and trying to organize the world according to thousands' year old superstitious mumbo jumbo.
I'm sure that mob could've found better uses for its energies from fighting corruption in their country to helping a small fraction of the impoverished in their midst and otherwise fighting for justice or bettering their lives in their hellhole backwater. Instead, they end up obsessed by some dude's private beliefs and what he wrote on Facebook.
Talk about opiate of the peoples.
And that religious cancer is starting to creep into our government and lawmaking. They're not there yet, but give them a whiff of power and those bible bangers in our midst would love nothing more than to do the same to those disagreeing with their superstitions.
Communism didn't pan out the way its creators and early advocates thought it would, but one thing they got right was taking superstitious religious idiocy off the table.
This suppression of the freedom to think what you want and say what you think , i. e. , freedom of speech and expression , occurs almost exclusively in Islamic dominated societies. All human beings have the right to deny God exists and say so publicly without being attacked and murdered or imprisoned. If this man had said God did not exist in a society dominated by Judaism , Buddhism, Christianity , Hinduism or atheism no one would have batted an eye. On this very site, each time a story about Muslim violence is promulgated scores of commentators opine that God does not exist. Yet they are not physically attacked for doing.
The proclivity for Islamic societies to deny freedom of speech and press must be constantly opposed by those that embrace fundamental human rights. Such behavior must be denounced publicly and never allowed to seep into Western nations. Life in the 21st century is vastly superior to life in the 7th.
And now you know why our Constitution has Amendments dealing with free speech, and prohibiting the government from getting involved in religion. Countries like Indonesia are, today, where we were, politically and socially, 300 years ago. Unfortunately, those countries, like Pakistan and India, have modern technology to deal with as well.
We are repeating history. Religious and political witch hunters trying to force the sane people to believe in their lunacy of a god that is going to save you and the world. If that were the case, what the hell is your god waiting for.
Look at all the mayhem in the world, starving and homeless people and children around the world.
what an effed up belief to have in thinking that some bs and invisible man in the sky is going to save anyone.
GTFU and end all church and religion in the world. send the to the backwoods from which they came from.
Arieus ----- Muslims committed these acts of violence. Why , then , do you attack members of other religions that did not attack this man and had nothing to do with these acts of violence?
Religion, like any other ideological dogma such as ism’s (capitalism, socialism, communism, etc.) is nothing but controlling mechanisms to keep the peasantry in line. The elite's goal is keep humanity docile, subservient, and acquiescing to authority so that they can continue to funnel the wealth to themselves. It's all about greed!
Tebow is quieter than Ricky Gervais is, yet I'm sure none of you have a problem with him. Practice what you preach (bad line to use with you people) or stop bitching.
Nice sentiments. However, comments that followed yours from your fellow atheists, like....
...and...
....make me wonder if it is really as you say it is.
Referee..."Atheists do not want to take anything away from anyone!"
LOL!! Virtually everyone in the Russian Mafia is an atheist.
Khalid..."Communism didn't pan out the way its creators and early advocates thought it would, but one thing they got right was taking superstitious religious idiocy off the table."
Oh, and those atheist communist also took about 11 million people of the planet too.
Humans are such an interesting species.
No? What rock u been hiding under?
The Founding Fathers left two critical letters out of the Bill of Rights, an R and an M. The article should read Freedom FROM religon, not Freedom OF religon.
norm903 -- so if I understand you correctly, unlike "referee" above (who claims atheists are not out to take anything away from anyone), you advocate abolishing all religion in the USA and making it constitutionally illegal for any American to follow any religion of their choosing?
Just checking...
norm903: Your right of course but it is clear that FROM was intended to be included in that line. Also it was the primary concern to protect one religious group from another as they had an endless history of exterminating each other even in the USA.
yscysc : There is a massive difference between allowing one to have 'freedom from X' as apposed to outlawing X.
Fuel -- so what is the difference between "freedom from" and "freedom of"? (constitutionally speaking, that is)
yscysc : Good question--I think the intent is clear--they meant both freedom of and from. But it could have been more clear if less concise. I tend to think of it as something of a continuum from devote belief all the way to extreme scepticism (atheism). All of us are more atheist then not, that is we don't subscribe to hundreds of possible religions but perhaps only one.
Maybe I can ask it this way -- How different do you and norm903 think the USA would be today if the founding fathers had actually written/included "freedom from religion" in the Bill of Rights? If no difference, why bring it up?
I think it would undermine to some degree the destructive false notion that this nation was founded on 'Christian values', that infects so many Americans today.
Fair enough. I just wanted to check whether "freedom from religion" meant more along the lines of Khalid-2395974's earlier comment, that the abolition of religion in communist countries was a good thing.
I'm not on board with a lot of the religious rhetoric that takes place in politics, USA or otherwise. I support church-state separation (and believe the Bible does too)....I've shared this with other Christians and also know Christians who support this. Without this important separation, I believe we risk the legal messes that plague Indonesia and other Muslim countries.
Yes indeed, many Christians recognize that it would be only beneficial to the most powerful Church/sect to the detriment of all the rest. So atheists have many allies among thoughtful Christians on that issue.
Further : Very few atheists actually want mandatory abolition of religion...it flys in the face of basic human rights. I think most atheists hope for gradual decline in degree and pervasiveness of blind faith and fear it's barbaric potential...but the only tool they accept for that end is to promote reality and reason.
Some of the comments here are (I believe) deliberate overstatements to make a point or express rage against the machine. To outlaw any belief is wrong, or silly at best, almost all of us would agree.
Mr. Earl sez:
No it doesn't. Atheists are not tracked down and beaten to a pulp for posting something against Christianity in the United States.
You really have no fricking clue how dangerous it is to be a non-believer in a Muslim majority country, especially for someone who is (by no fault of their own) born into Islam and at some point decides to follow a different path.
Blasphemy laws and Apostasy laws, both derived from Islamic "holy" texts, result in people being KILLED by self-appointed upholders and "defenders" of Islam.
You can say that all religions do that but you would be wrong. And no I'm not a Christian; I am an ATHEIST.
yscysc: Re your post 57.28, uh, are you drunk on religon? How do you draw that conclusion from my post 57.27? How about interpreting it this way: like sexual orientation which should be kept in the bedroom, how about keeping your religous beliefs in your church and not on the street in my face?
Clearer now?
Fuel - wish I could share your optimism. As a person of faith, I find such "deliberate overstatements" to be downright sick and scary, as I suspect you would too, if similar "overstatements" came from religious people against atheists. Especially given the all-too-recent-and-real history of what atheist communists (some still alive today) actually did against religious people in the countries they ruled. Meanwhile, many atheists here curiously suggest that Christians will outlaw and punish blasphemy across the USA if given a chance, when there isn't any evidence (a favorite word among atheists) that Christians currently do this on a state, county, municipal, or even district level. Heck, I don't know any churches in the USA that would throw someone out just because they posted "God doesn't exist" on Facebook. Hearing how atheists pride themselves in their reason and rational thinking, I find this most baffling and troubling. I can't help but wonder if it's wishful thinking on these atheists, all to galvinize the (as you put it) "atheist rage against the religious machine" until said rage takes action. Given all this, I'm not confident at all that it's only "very few" atheists who are fanatical in their views and would impose them on everyone if they had the chance....again, one only need look at the Soviet bloc, China, Vietnam, Kampuchea, etc and the masses who blindly bought into their barbaric anti-religion ideology (or conveniently looked the other way) just a few decades ago. Fanatics on all sides, religious and atheist, have to be called out and taken seriously.
norm903: it's clear, thanks. Given my posts 1.23 and 1.40, just had to ask. In forums like these, it's hard to know exactly what positions are being advocated. Again, thanks for clarifying.
Adam44: thanks for your post. Glad to see there are some atheists who see the distinctions.
adam- 'Atheists are not tracked down and beaten to a pulp for posting something against Christianity in the United States.' patently false. in 1986, i was assaulted by most of the varsity football team for saying i did not believe in god. This occurred during my english class, in what was at the time the highest rated high school in washington state. i spent 6 weeks in the hospital, no one was ever charged with anything in conjunction with my attack. and this is not an isolated incident. those who disagree with christianity are often persecuted in this country, and many who practice a lifestyle outside their decrees end up dead at their hands....ask Dr. George Tiller. Christianity is just as dangerous as Islam, the only real difference between their theology and yours is their country openly backs the religion, where in the US, they just ignore the attrocoties of the church.
sikchimp ---- If Christianity is just as dangerous as Islam, tell us when Christians hijacked airplanes and flew them into buildings with the intention to murder the thousands of innocents involved. Tell us when Christians strapped on bombs and boarded trains and blew up hundreds of innocent humans because their religion told them to do so. Tell us when Christians strapped on bombs and walked into weddings, restaurants, markets, etc. and blew up the innocents therein. Tell us when Christians threw acid on girls to keep them from attending school or even leave the house without a man's permission. Tell us when Christians cut off the fingers of their wifes to prevent them from attending school.
Your statement is factually unsupportable and anyone with the capacity for rational analysis knows it.
sikchimp -- very sorry to hear what happened to you in 1986. It's incredible that no one was charged, especially in Washington state, which is a far less religious state compared to the rest of the country. Law enforcement and the school administrators really dropped the ball wherever you were. Was this a public school? Did you try suing? Did the local media pick it up? I would've made a big public stink about it....seems like the kind of story the media would jump at to report.
Dr. George Tiller, ironically, was a Christian himself (not atheist) and was killed at his church while ushering. His killer, along with other killers of abortion doctors, have either been incarcerated or executed in our country. So you might need to bring up other examples to show "where in the US, they just ignore the attrocoties of the church".
Wow, it amazes me how some have a revisionist version of history. Yscysc these so called atheist communist..Really!! you do realize there were many from the Russian Orthodox church involved too... yes they still do exist. My point is those atrocities happened not because they were atheist but as fundamental extremist. Oh and did I mention Hitler.. If you are going to bring up so called atheist communist you have to bring up the fact that Hitler was a "Christian" just read Mein Kempf. Oh and don't forget the crusades. Remember almost every war and conflict fought in this world was over my god is better than your god.. remember that!
Difference between Atheist Communists and Hitler.
Hilter- killed for German superamacy.
Atheist Communists - Killed because people followed a religion.
guy from Orlando... More people die because of religion than any other..Period!
So did many people die from Atheism, what's your point? Ever heard of Zedong, Pol Pot, Stalin?
RUKiddingMe1: If you look back on your fellow atheist khalid-2395974's comment 1.16 in this thread, he said "one thing [communists] got right was taking superstitious religious idiocy off the table." And I don't see a whole lot of atheists in this forum (including you) challenging this statement (but to say I believe in God, whoa, that's a whole 'nother thing!). So as you accuse me of "historical revisionism of communists", please also address khalid-2395974 for doing the same (albeit for different reasons).
If you're suggesting the Russian Orthodox Church's religious beliefs were responsible for the atrocities that took place from Lenin-the-atheist's 1918 Bolshevik "Red Terror" until Stalin-the-mass-murdering-atheist's death in 1953, then why was this same church NOT committing these same kind of atrocities in the centuries they existed BEFORE 1918....and why not now, since this church still exists today?
So if atheists are prone to "fundamental extremist" atrocities like religious people, it suggests to me that atheism is no better equipped than religion to keep such atrocities from happening. And I don't think these atheists committed atrocities because of their views on God, but rather because they were virulently anti-religion and wanted (like khalid said) religion eliminated. A drug war, if you will, on the "opium of the masses".
Re: Hitler....well, he was also German. And white. And socialist. These characteristics did much to fuel his agenda as well. So are you also miffed at whites, Germans, and socialists for spawning Hitler? Btw, a lot of Nazis liked and read fellow-German-Nietzsche-the-atheist's material, too. At least Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German Christian pastor, and other Christians recognized Hitler's threat and tried to do away with him (got them executed, unfortunately). Can't say the same for Nietzschean atheists during this time...either they were cowards or just bought into Hitler along with everyone else in WW2 Germany.
Re: your most-wars-are-god-based claim, can you be more specific about which wars/conflicts? Please tell me which gods were being fought over in the Vietnam War, Korean War, and Chinese Communists vs. Chinese KMT civil war. Was it one side's Buddha against the other side's Buddha? The fact is in each of these wars, atheist-marxist-communists were one of the sides fighting. How about the gods being fought over during World War I and II? Was it Britain/France's Jesus vs. Germany's Jesus? I haven't read that in any history books. How about the Revolutionary War, the Spanish-American war, the US Civil War, the War of 1812, Bay of Pigs, and invasion of Grenada? Because if the USA isn't really a Christian nation, then none of these conflicts in which the USA was involved could've been based on god, right? What about warmongers like Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great, and Napoleon-the-atheist....what gods did they fight over? Consider the "Reign of Terror" during the French Revolution and see how secular people of "reason" prevailed a la the guillotine and the 1000's of bloody heads that rolled just in one year. And of course, there's the aforementioned conflicts in the secular USSR. Point being, I don't see religion or god being the reason ANY of these wars/conflict occurred. Ok, I concur that the Crusades were religion-based, and there are a few more, I know....but standing next to the other wars I mentioned, I'm not persuaded by your statement "almost every war and conflict fought in this world was over my god is better than your god". But if you have evidence to the contrary, please share.
Shh!!!! The radical atheists here get infuriated when they are told they are wrong/making fools of themselves!!!!
This is what happens when religious zealots take over. Sounds like America's right wing.
If, in a hypothetical scenario scarier than hell itself, Rick Santorum were to get elected president, the Evangelical Christian Taliban would start imposing anti-blasphemy laws in the US faster than you can say, "prayer in school".
At the rate zealots here at home are going, it won't be long before they try it here too. When they buy into the 'I'm going to heaven now, no matter what' they also get a license to force their will on other people as if it was the will of God, and of course they think it is. That trumps everything, reason is no obstacle. Respecting other people is contingent on their religious beliefs. Our democracy will not survive if they become the majority.
Bart, Mikey , softdude --- But what do you have to say about the story, about the Muslims in Indonesia who did this to the man exercising his human right to freedom of opinion and speech? This event did not happen in America. The story is about what happened in Indonesia. Why do you denounce people of other religions who have not done this and yet remain mute about those that have? Are those that attacked this man despicable or, in your mind , only those of other religions that did not do it?
I'll be the first to take up arms if that ever happens.
Is there really a precedent we should be worrying about? I.e. do the states that Santorum, Perry, and Bachmann govern and represent already have anti-blasphemy laws on their books? I haven't heard of any, but correct me if I'm wrong.
yscysc: I don't know of any such precedents either--but there are some legitimate fears of anti-blasphemy legislation. Examples: The UN recently pushed for it and Ireland (for one) caved into it, you can no longer legally criticize Islam or any other death worshiping cult there. Fortunately we have a fairly solid backing of freedom of expression in America--however--notice not a single major US publication had the balls to republish those Dutch Mohammad cartoons.
Bart Conner sez:
Correct on your first count, but "sounds like America's right wing" only to someone who is naively or wilfully blind to how much more dangerous religious extremism is in Islam than in ANY other religion.
Note also how it was the VICTIM who was jailed, not his attackers. The same thing happens to rape victims who are often brutally punished, disowned, ostracized, jailed, or killed for having been raped.
"God doesn't exist" is now threatened with jail time for blasphemy.''....well of course there is zero evidence that god exists that is why it is said in religion that you must have faith. Of course in Islam it is dangerous to have an intellectual discussion on the existence of a ''god'' so glad I do not live in an Islamic country.
I'm not a religious man at all, but I think you folks are over the top paranoid about religion, whether it be Rick Perry's or Tim Tebow's. yscysc, it's paranoia, that's all. When Softdude says "reason is no obstacle", he defines his own paranoid rant to a "T". He's even got dirty rats saying he's "taking up arms" because of that same paranoia. At first, I got a kick out of some of these comments, but now I'm worried that these guys might actually be voters.
Fuel -- I concur. Those same US pubs that refused to publish the Dutch Mohammad cartoons had no problems lauding works like "Last Temptation of Christ", "DaVinci Code", "Golden Compass", Serranos "P*ssChrist", Madonna videos, and SouthPark cartoons lampooning Christ and Christians. Protests, boycotts from some Christians, sure....but no clarion calls for legislative actions against such depictions. I for one would mourn a day if criticism or mocking of any belief system were suppressed and outlawed. Whatever precedents we see now trying to suppress criticism of religions around the world ain't coming from Christians. To even suggest that it is muddles the entire issue.
Lanikai Ron -- good points
Re: yscysc No clarion calls for legislative action? After Serrano's Piss Christ, Sen. Helms made a strong-arm push to defund the NEA, on the grounds that they would allow such blasphemy.
Article 6, Section 8 of the North Carolina Constitution:
The following persons shall be disqualified for office:
First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.
Look at the bans on homosexuality/sodomy. Hell, look at temperance laws banning alcohol from being sold on Sundays. You think these didn't come from Christians?
Lanikai Ron:
Yes I'm a voter, and no, I'm not paranoid at all. I despise all religion and I even more despise Repugnicans. And if there comes a day when this country turns into a Theocracy I will take up arms. If there comes a day when I can't express my opinions in criticizing religion and "God" and I become the persecuted like this fellow in Indonesia, I will take up arms. I would put my life on the line and fight to the death to preserve mine and others rights to have freedom, to have free expression without persecution, to have the right NOT to believe in any religion.
Do I think that any of this will become a reality? Probably not. But, then again, one never knows. Hopefully it never will.
The Mohammad cartoons were not Dutch (e.g. from the Netherlands), but Danish - from a newspaper in Denmark. Facts are important.
This Indonesian story reminds me of the ridicule and attacks on Galileo when he declared (correctly) that the Earth revolves around the Sun, that Earth was not the center of the universe. Science proved him right.
This Indonesian man posted that god doesn't exist and is being attacked for that truth. Science has shown NO evidence for a supernatural "man in the sky." Religions have been promoted to the populace to control them, collect money, keep people subservient, and maintain hierarchy - without any proof of truth that any sort of "god" exists. Blind faith is dangerous. Our world needs thinking people, not the brainwashed or fanatics.
Jordan: Helms was against using taxpayer funds to fund Serrano's art, not against Serrano's right of free speech to blaspheme religious icons. If Serrano had simply removed the urine from "P*ssChrist", and just called his work "Christ", I suspect more than a few atheists would challenge whether $15,000 of NEA taxpayer money should be used to fund THAT (and I'd question it too).
Re: NC constitution --- Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 pretty much took care of that back in 1961. Why such language still exists in a few states' constitutions I have no idea, but whenever they decide to remove it, I'd welcome it.
I'm not denying that certain Christians have pushed for certain policies that may or may not make sense to non-Christians, however arcane and unenforceable a lot of it may be. But the focus of this article about Indonesia and this online discussion is about blasphemy, and my point throughout has been that Christians generally haven't made a big legal fuss about blasphemy (compared to, say, Muslims).
OneDirtyRat: Trust me, if that dark day of suppressing critical speech and free expression against religion ever came to this country, it won't be the Christians who made it that way.
ttmadison: you're correct, the cartoons were indeed Danish, not Dutch.
It might be worth noting that Galileo was not an atheist and that unlike Alexander-in-Indonesia, he was not attacked by the Catholic church for saying God didn't exist. Sure, Galileo had issues with the organized religion of his day (plenty of faith people do today), but he was still a strong believer in God's involvement in the sciences he loved and studied. Folks may argue whether his scientific genius arose because of or in spite of his faith....on that, I don't give a rip.
It used to be like this for Christianity and Judaism too, but instead they burned/hanged/decapitated/exiled/drowned you. It's all the same superstitious mumbo jumbo that whips people up into a furor. What puzzles me is that if these people are indeed committing a grave sin, why not let their deity mete out punishment instead of forcing it upon them in the earthly realm? That, to me, is a tacit admission that they believers know deep down that there is no afterlife so we better punish this guy now.
You guys understand very little of what you talk about.
If you believe what the ENTIRE Bible says (not just the parts most people know, and then don't understand the concept you're questioning, and who can blame them?) you know that God does not and will not intercede with human processes currently occurring. Good or bad. It's not a "test", not "training for the next life", not intentionally making some people suffer and others receive a so-called miraculous salvation; not bestowing blessings on some who somehow have the nerve to think they are more deserving of it. The Bible clearly states that "unforeseen circumstance befalls us all" and that goes for good and bad. It does state there will be a time of intervention but it will be for all mankind at the same time, not a hand-picked few. I'm not trying to proselytize, just attempting to address your question with actual scriptural facts, not just what people want to believe.
On a side note, who are you to judge wheter God exists or not. Infact, nobody should determine an answer we won't know of until we die, thus both theism and atheism are just simple little guesses, should have been thrown away in the trash a long time ago.
If you want to attack a religion, at least have some sort of knowledge of it.
I think it was one of our country's greatest founding benefits to recognize that everyone has that individual right. This is precisely the kind of arrest we do not tolerate in the U.S.A., where freedom of speech and of religion are highly prized. Religions should be self-supporting, not bolstered by law and government.
We have the rights to believe in what we want, but when you go around, making up your own conclusions about things, then there's a problem, wheter it's your right or not.
If Facebook took the page down, they are just as scummy as the Indonesian government.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus
I'm thinking it was the Indonesian gov't that took it down, probably under authority of their version of SOPA.
AB..."“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"...oh boy, that's going to start everyone off on the free will thingy. Not a good choice.
Evil is a paradox. With an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God, evil cannot exist. For evil to exist, at least one of them must be false.
Let me repeat a whole paragraph I wrote a bit ago.
"If you believe what the ENTIRE Bible says (not just the parts most people know, and then don't understand the concept you're questioning, and who can blame them?) you know that God does not and will not intercede with human processes currently occurring. Good or bad. It's not a "test", not "training for the next life", not intentionally making some people suffer and others receive a so-called miraculous salvation; not bestowing blessings on some who somehow have the nerve to think they are more deserving of it. The Bible clearly states that "unforeseen circumstance befalls us all" and that goes for good and bad. It does state there will be a time of intervention but it will be for all mankind at the same time, not a hand-picked few. I'm not trying to proselytize, just attempting to address your question with actual scriptural facts, not just what people want to believe. If you want to attack a religion, at least have some sort of knowledge of it."
Wah. wah, wah. Humans shouldn't hold responsiblity for everything. If something bad happens, we should just sit down and expect God to do everything for us. Wah wah, who cares about responsibilty. Let's just stick to our weak-minded, uneducated rants against God, he's obivously not real if I drop wine on a white rug, and he doesn't help out. God is suppose to be on our backs, 24/7, babysitting humanity. Wah.
"guy from orlando", huh? The point is that "God" holds _no— responsibility whatsoever. There is no hard reliable evidence for any kind of god. You assume he exists, but does he? Where is your scientifically sound evidence?
Where did I say that God exists? I never said that. All I am saying is that there is no evidence for God's non-existence, that is all.
There has to be some superior being that created us, life comes from life, the issue is where was that first life form's source of life and energy, it's common sense. Spontanous generation was disproven a long time ago.
God doesn't exist. Religious faith is a vice.
And who are you to determine a correct answer to a question that no mind on Earth can answer?
Do tell, Mr. Genius. Show us your evidence. Enlighten us with your divine answer, you *obviously* must be some superior, omnipotent entity if you can figure that one out. And while you're at it, tell us what life means, tell us if tomato is a fruit or vegetable, tell us if it's Pepsi or Coke, tell us, oh intelligent one.
This is not new....Francis Farmer, in 1932 was denounced in Seattle Washington for writing a prize winning essay, "God is dead". Just another case of religious intolerance, nothing new or surprizing.
Was Francis Farmer also arrested and beaten for that essay?
Francis F was not beaten nor arrested and charged for creating an unrest, denounced yes. Civility does not exist in Muslim when one have opposing view and usualy it takes one to spread words to others of a dissenting view to create unrest. Freedom of speech does not exist in muslim, nor debate about it's religious values. Mullah, clerics or ayatolah etc are men likes to exhort brainwashed thugs to attack opposing views, decried another person to make sure everyone toe inline to follow his personal interpretationof the koran, that lack the ability to think to use common sense. The book was created by a pedophile and murderer and meant to keep his followers inline using harsh barbaric slaughtering. There can't be any opposing view or discusion, either you follow or you are death, No freedom of speech.
This is why I laugh when I hear Christians in the U.S. scream about attacks on their religion.
What happened to this man in Indonesia is an attack on religion, or lack of faith in a religion if you want. Not much difference, really.
I have yet to hear any Christian rationally explain to me (key word being rational) how removing religious icons, etc. from Gov. locations somehow infringes on their ability to worship.
Considering the religious far right, it could happen in the US as well !
Ah, yes, Islam - the religion of peace....
you read my mind......
So is Christianity, apparently. Indonesia isn't the only place where atheists are attacked.
Byron -- so where exactly are atheists being arrested and beaten by Christians for saying God doesn't exist?
We're pretty close to this in the USA. Voter supression, taking away woman's private choices for our own bodies and my favorite Teebow is the new hero.......not!!!!!!!!!!
I saw a poll recently that had thousands of people thinking God favors Tebow.
There's religious faith, then's there's blind faith to the point of stupidity.
Rick Perry prays to end the drought in Texas, and Tebow prays for the Broncos to win.
I guess god took a couple of days off.
JMO,
Islam is not the problem, people are. Given the right circumstances this sort of thing could happen in the U.S., too.
And I'm sure I don't need to point out all the blood spilled throughout history in the name of Christianity.
"And I'm sure I don't need to point out all the blood spilled throughout history in the name of Christianity."
Nope, you sure don't. That horse is totally dead....no need to keep beating it
.
Fair enough, JMO.
I hope though you realize Islam in and of itself is not why we have this sort of thing happening, as well as Muslim terrorists. If that was the case, we'd be at war with what, a couple billion people?
Just like with Christianity, it's people twisting what their religion says to justify murder. For every Muslim terrorist, how many Muslims do not feel it's okay?
Common sense says many.
Fair enough M. Jones-3318143
However, based on my personal experience with Muslims in the general area I live in, if you are not a Muslim - you are tolerated...and barely at that. However, your statement is true enough!
Americans don't tolerate atheists, either: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=in-atheists-we-distrust
Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America. Only 45 percent of Americans say they would vote for a qualified atheist presidential candidate, and atheists are rated as the least desirable group for a potential son-in-law or daughter-in-law to belong to.
I'm sorry to have to correct you, M Jones, but the authority for this wicked behavior is the Koran and the Hadith - which explicitly enjoin Muslims to kill both blasphemers and apostates (those who change their minds about Islam and no longer want to be a Muslim).
So Islam, it turns out, is the problem, since the holy text mandates this sort of barbaric intolerance of its believers. The evil is latent in the book itself, I'm afraid. I invite you to pick up a copy of each of these rubbishy texts and read them, so you don't keep saying stupid things in front of everybody.
Abrahamic monotheism has been a curse to humanity and has retarded civilization since its inception. The real Axis of Evil: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Byron, the SA article discussed whether or not people trusted atheist. Not whether they tolerated them. I suggest you read through the 100+ comments after the article. Lot's of disagreement and, while some professing to be believers come across as intolerant, many others do not.
M. Jones..."And I'm sure I don't need to point out all the blood spilled throughout history in the name of Christianity." No, not really. It's been mentioned over and over.
And of course atheist never spilled a drop of blood...
Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths—6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes—are attributable to the regime,[108] with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[109]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
And that' just Stalin. We won't bring up Pol Pot or the Chinese.
M. Jones sez:
No M. Jones, you've got it exactly backwards; Islam IS the problem.
It's not totally dead; the authoritarian mentality lives on (it's the same mentality that justified burning at the stake and the Inquisition).
For ex., numerous leaders and spokespeople for the religious right, including one who could be president, Rick Santorum, think that homosexuality should be illegal. I don't know about you, but I consider throwing people in jail who don't obey your RELIGIOUS prohibitions to be just as bad as physically attacking them for same.
This is an example of what America is heading towards if we do not continue to fight for our rights listed within the constitution. Let's not forget what this country was built on. If we allow the freedoms we are given in America to be taken away, we void the efforts of all the men and women who fought for our freedom. It seems that lately our freedoms have come under attack by the same individuals who are put in place to defend them.
Not going to happen as long as the Second Amendment is still in place.
The Second Amendment only confers the right to bear arms to members of a well-regulated militia. Private ownership of guns (based on misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment) has only led to high rates of murder, suicide, and accidental deaths.
God is evil. More harm than good has been done in the name of god.
Atheist ...
I disagree. There are many who believe in a God who are fine people that do not believe it's okay to force their beliefs onto others.
It's people who twist what their God tells that that is the problem.
The 'many' you talk about is but a drop in the bucket that's drowned out by those who do force their beliefs on others. Of all the religious nutjobs surrounding me in this 'god forsaken' state, I say about 5% fit in the category you describe.
SinisterPhnx,
I am not doubting that. Anyone who pays the slightest attention to the news and politics know how many right-wing zealots are that way.
But it sounds like you might be projecting your experiences as justification all religious people are zealots:
"Of all the religious nutjobs surrounding me in this 'god forsaken' state"
God can't very well be evil if he doesn't exist, can he? God is used as a convenient excuse for evil at times, but such people would just find some other excuse .
I project what I see and hear on a daily basis, if I seem agitated it's because you cannot reason with the willfully ignorant. This is a southern conservative state after all...
How else would the Broncos keep pulling out those last quarter wins?
(Sorry, that was in bad taste but we were all thinking it)
Sinister,
We most certainly are on the same team, but I don't like to see all Christians viewed in the same light as the Christian taliban.
There are many, many that aren't.
Lalya,
Yeah, it was getting a little uncanny there for awhile, especially since I live in the Denver area.
But given they went 1 -4 in their last 5 games, if God was on Tebow's side, maybe he pissed him off somehow.
HeHe
Agreed. I don't view them ALL like that, but I do view MOST of them like that. I have two friends I work with who are deeply religious, one is a preacher himself. We get along great, have fantastic intellectual discussions and respect each others opinions. This is because they are like what you describe, not pushy in their beliefs. But, they are the only two out of a group of around thirty here that are like that, everyone else acts the opposite. It's those others who I refer to as the nutjobs.
Mark my previous comment as a poor choice of words.
Jock -- God is used as a convenient excuse for good too. I guess that means God is just a "convenient excuse." God, Allah, Jehovah, Baal, Isis, Ishtar, ad infinitum are just convenient explanations for things we don't understand.
You guys must have been pretty lazy as children.
Just because God isn't there to help you out in everything, just as te Bible tells about his handing down of responsibility to humanity, doesn't mean he's non-existent.
I've seen religious arguments, and they suck.
But atheist arguments? They suck even more, makes me thankful to have evolved (no pun intended) from a primitive-mind to an agnostic.
He's learning that religion and savagery go hand in hand.
Tat guy is loucky he didn't say that out nloud at the Republican debates! He could have expericned the love and compassion of theur version of Christianity as well.
This is why religion has no place in government. Religion should stay in your place of worship and your head, not in the public square.
Religion encourages stupidity, suppresses intelligent discussion about anything, for fear it will be uncovered for what lies they spread among the fools.
Religion and fascism, they are one and the same
Religions are deadly.
One religion in partcular is particularly deadly: Islam.
The Religious Right here in the USA would love to enact laws like this.
Nope, Christians and Muslims are opposite as the former celebrates life while the latter celebrates death. Just because the Pagan Left outlawed Jesus Christ from even being mentioned in Public Schools does not mean we are outlawing you saying there is no God.
UDunnoBro,
Hare to argue with that, but I think there is a simple solution. It's proven very difficult to enact though, and that is more people need to vote.
I'm firmly convinced an overwhelming majority of Americans do no support what the Religious Right stands for. Of course they don't. Most Americans value freedom, the Religious Right does not.
Has any state where the religious right rule ever successfully enacted an anti-blasphemy law akin to what's going on in Indonesia? If not, isn't it a bit much to suggest they would do so if they ruled the White House?
@yscysc: If I remember correctly, most states, if not all, had laws against blasphemy until the early to mid 1960s.
Arnold: I googled around, and as best as I could tell, only 6 states had/have laws against blasphemy. However, if you have evidence that most states, if not all, had laws against blasphemy as of a half-century ago, please share.
I also found that the last time a person was convicted in the USA for blasphemy was in 1928....hardly a stellar track record of enforcement, given all the blasphemy that's gone on since.
And at dumblaws-dot-com, you'll find a plethora of weird, archaic US state laws still on the books that never get enforced, much less whether folks are even aware of them....and I'm confident that most Christians today, if not all, would lump blasphemy laws together with these "dumblaws".
Point being -- I don't think anyone has to worry about the religious right punishing anyone for blasphemy in this country.
Wow look at those violent Muslims attacking a nice man for his beliefs......Oh never mind that was just peace loving Christians attacking a nice man for his beliefs. Jesus is love.
Kurt,
Sounds like hyperbole. Please tell me the law that outlaws uttering the words "Jesus Christ" in a public school.
I'm sure you meant prayers aren't allowed. At least I hope you did.
no one can prove the existance of god. it is all by faith. it should not be of anyones concern if someone does not believe god exists. they should be concerned of their own beliefs. being attacked and sent to jail for not believing in god is absurd. i am glad that i live in a country where we do have those freedoms
So much for freedom of speech in Indonesia. If God exists, produce some evidence that he or she exists. The fact is there isn't any. Its a matter of faith. The idea of a God, or diety is a fantasy. The bible, the koran and the rest of the religious books are books of fiction made up by man and propagated as the truth.
Inshalla there is no Allah, just the Holy Trinity
Kurt,
Do you realize if you born in a predominately Muslim country in all likelihood you would have exactly the opposite view?
The point being, you have to more a claim that your God exists than Muslims do. Except among those who share your faith, I suppose.
Thanks for the info M. Jones but I actually have lived in a "predominately Muslim Country", yes they believe you are "born into the religion", Christians just the opposite, you are born into sin.
Kurt,
Thank you for your reply. Please note my point is how geography plays such a key role in most people's religion. For me, that underscores the fallacy of all religions.
And they beat him in the name of their god I am sure. What these religious fanatics forget is that you cannot force anyone to believe anything even with physical violence. This incident probably only strengthened what that man feels towards religion.