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Subscribe to RSSSeveral American citizens have taken shelter in the U.S. Embassy in Cairo amid a sharpening dispute between Washington and Egypt's military-led authorities over U.S.-funded pro-democracy groups in the country, the State Department said on Monday.
"We can confirm that a handful of U.S. citizens have opted to stay in the embassy compound in Cairo while waiting for permission to depart Egypt," State Department spokeswoman Kate Starr said.
According to The New York Times, colleagues confirmed at least two American citizens were being protected at the embassy from potential arrest.
The unusual step of offering U.S. citizens diplomatic refuge follows Cairo's crackdown on non-governmental organizations, including several funded by the U.S. government, which saw travel bans imposed on six American staffers including a son of U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.
State Department officials said they did not believe the Americans were in any physical danger, but said they had "concerns given the fact that they want to leave the country and were disallowed."
"There is no expectation any of these individuals are seeking to avoid any kind of judicial process," State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland said. "Our view is that these people ought to be able to travel freely, that we need to expedite the process of whatever kind of formal registration is ultimately going to be allowed for them, if their property needs to be returned, and that it is in the interest of Egypt's democratic transition not only for international democracy NGOs to be able to operate but for Egyptian democracy NGOs to be able to operate, and that they have already played a strong role in supporting the good elections that have already taken place, and there are more elections coming up."
Raids and crackdown
Egyptian police first raided the groups in late December as part of an investigation into foreign funding of 17 pro-democracy and human rights groups, part of what civil society groups say has been a broader crackdown on critics of the army's heavy-handed tactics in dealing with street unrest.
Washington has strongly criticized the Egyptian move, which has cast a pall over U.S.-Egypt relations as the most populous Arab nation reaches a critical stage in its uncertain transition away from authoritarian rule.
Leading U.S. lawmakers have also voiced outrage over the incident, and American officials have repeatedly warned that Washington may have to take a fresh look at U.S. aid to Egypt's military, which now runs about $1.3 billion per year.
The six U.S. citizens hit with travel bans work with the National Democratic Institute and International Republican Institute. Both receive U.S. public funding and are loosely affiliated with the two major political parties in Washington.
The State Department did not provide details on the Americans sheltering in the embassy, although officials at the NDI said none of their staff had been relocated.
U.S. officials said an Egyptian military delegation was expected in Washington this week for regular talks, which are nevertheless expected to focus in large part on the impasse over the NGOs.
U.S. expresses concern over restrictions
President Barack Obama spoke with the head of Egypt's ruling military council, Field Marshal Hussein Tantawi, on January 20 and stressed the importance of the NGOs, as well as Egypt's request for $3.2 billion in support from the International Monetary Fund.
In a weekend call to Tantawi, U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta urged the Egyptians to take steps to lift the travel ban on Americans wishing to leave the country, and expressed concern over restrictions placed on NGOs, the Pentagon said.
The Obama administration is finalizing its budget for the 2013 fiscal year, which will be presented on February 13 and is expected to include continued assistance for Egypt's military, albeit subject to new conditions imposed by U.S. lawmakers.
Those include evidence that Egyptian military authorities are committed to holding free and fair elections and implementing policies to protect freedom of expression, association, and religion, and due process of law.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Can't we just pull completely out of Egypt and let them sort out their own mess?
I think by now we've proven with Iraq that we shouldn't help any ME country try and be democratic.
Exactly! I mean, its not like they have any oil reserves...If it doesn't make oil prices go up, then our government has no legitimate interest there.
And leave behind the 1000+ M1 Abrams tanks we sold them, and the 220+ F-16s? I don't see that happening. Israel would scream like a spoiled toddler having his favorite toy taken away if they suddenly found themselves with a newly-antagonistic Egyptian regime on their border. The US paid off Mubarak for decades to keep the peace with Israel. You can bet we're going to keep our noses firmly planted in Egypt's business until we can ensure a similarly pro-Israel leader is "democratically selected".
Precisely, both of you. :) Ruken and Bloggit Hi guys... good morning and all that stuff... lol just got here.
And to be honest.. I don't give a darn if they have oil or not... I truly think that none of us have the remotest concept about their culture and how totally different their value system is from ours... and we ought to stay the ... he*double hockey stick ... lol out of the Arab countries...
....and we have oil here in our own country and the Northwest Hemisphere for that matter ... and I wish we could make a deal with Canada, too, favorable for them and us and NOT shipping their or our oil overseas...
And boycott OPEC!
whew well I am off and running... I have tutoring appts this afternoon so you will be free of me :) in a while and for a while if you are reeeeelly lucky.
@Chris-629698 Spot on.
Isolationists, short sighted ones at that.
So, let me ask this question: Exactly how far into primitive-land would you like to go?
First off, would you like to stop driving your car?
When you do actually stop driving your car, I'll actually consider this nonsense legitimate. There's no problem I have with not sending military aid or people where we are not wanted. And at a certain point you have to wake up, smell the coffee, and realize your little happy life is brought to you by having a global economy. A global economy which includes freedom of the seas, and shipping through places like the Suez canal and straights of Hormuz. Do you think the freedom of the sea which allows your happy little products that arrive at your doorstep just magically appears? Or do you think it has something to do with US policy maintaining friendly relationships with certain countries in the world, and preventing the threat of others shutting it down?
The answer is obvious. Please, get your heads out of the almost literal sand at this point.
Another $1.3 billion of wasted spending on foreign policy!
Chris-629698....."until we can ensure a similarly pro-Israel leader is "democratically selected"."
Agree with your analysis, however it is going to be something to watch as the Egyptian "factions" continue their quest for power (i.e., military and Muslim Brotherhood).
I mean we saw how well the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites get along...
Difference being we never should have ever been in Iraq. And on that point, you are totally correct.
I really would like to know why our government constantly sells/gives some of our best weapons (1000+ M1 Abrams tanks we sold them, and the 220+ F-16s) to our fake friends. I can see selling this to U.K. or Japan (etc.) but to places like Egypt, and the Paki's, come on, there has to be some common sense here. You know that is going to come back and bites us at some point. While I understand the greed, I mean economics of the thing, I would expect our government to a little wiser in such matters.
Ruken... ah the old Iraq three state solution. It is spelled "Civil War." The eventual outcome with associated killing and maiming. Probably in store for the Arab Spring countries as they are aligned to Sunni or Shia.
I mean we saw how well the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites get along...
Obama and frankly Washington would say that the US presence is critical now in Egypt while their government is forming. So we pay to mettle. Both parties do it. We think they need guidance. That may be true, which I think Egypt should be willing to listen to all groups that have walked this democracy plank before them. So if a one state in the US is doing badly, why not wander over and consult with the state that is doing better. So knowledge is a good thing IMO.
The problem lies with using money to have a say. The US is broke. When Obama took office each American had a debt of 24,000. Obama campaigned how irresponsible this was of the Bush administration to ratchet up so much debt. Now that debt is 38,000 percent person. So Obama no longer can speak truthfully on the matter. He is a part of the problem now. So the US certainly does not have extra money sitting around to give to ME countries that pretty much hate our guts no matter how much money or support we give to them. That payment system is a flop.
I was very opposed to throwing Mubarak under the bus ONLY because prior to his ouster the US was NOT on record consistently complaining about Mubarak. So we had no track record of wanting him to be replaced. We may have urged him to put more reforms in place, which should be public knowledge, but to just immediately throw him under the bus was hypocritical and now the US relations with this new ultra conservative regime will be under a lot of pressure. Obama apparently believed that Egypt would choose secularists to lead, but in fact that percentage of the population is very small. Obama was once again wrong.
Egypt has a long history as a stable country; in it's 5000 year history it has never been a democracy, until the King was deposed by Jammal Nasser , it had been ruled as a kingdom, even during the Ottoman period; they are the oldest government in the world, even older that the Chin empire which founded China; let them work out their own problems, they do not want, or need our import, they were the first and only Arab nation to recognize Israel.
Ruken, Bloggit, which would you rather see in Egypt? A second Iraq (civil war and collapsed government), or a second Iran (major terrorist funder dedicated to the complete destruction of Western society, and pursuing nuclear weapons)? That's the choice the US and EU have in our future dealings with Egypt. Abandon Egypt and all but guarantee a second Iran. Continue to interfere with it and risk a second Iraq, but hope for something better.
That's kind of a given, they've been killing over tribal hatreds for thousands of years. What makes us think they'll just abruptly decide to call it quits?
We could divide Iraq into 3 states, but we tried that with Israel / Palestine. That doesn't seem to be working out too well either.
Liberty earned is far sweeter than liberty given. If they want diplomatic help and ask for it, we should give it. But they need to understand they need to build their own country. We will provide guidance if necessary but they need to develop themselves.
Weapons of war have become a major export for the U.S. It is one of our biggest sources of foreign capital. If we stop selling weapons to other countries, even totalitarian dictatorships, our economy would collapse. The military-industrial complex would lose thousands if not millions of jobs. The U. S. military could not possibly fill the gap. Taxpayers would revolt. This dependence on the sale of weapons was started by Nixon and Kissinger in the early seventies to sustain a sinking economy.
As Eisenhower warned in his farewell speech upon leaving the office of president, "Beware of the power of the military-industrial complex." Well, the consequences are upon us. Instead of building our national wealth on the sale of peaceful products, we chose to make the world more dangerous by supplying weapons of warfare.
Of course, power hungry dictators were eager to spend their nation's resources on weapons to keep their citizens in line, and threaten other countries with a powerful military. This misguided policy has come back to bite us in the ass, just as Eisenhower predicted it would.
Mike 520 you are putting common sense and the government in the same sentence that is where you are missing the point the US government has no common sense
Ruken... We could divide Iraq into 3 states
No we couldn't. We have been imposing Western ways on Islam and drawing lines on maps for a long time. Let them kill each other. It is just how they do things there - a bomb and beheading here and there. As long the West keeps control of the oil, we should care less. Their religious wars with each other keeps them weak and divided. We can no longer dictate a three state solution or any other. Just be happy with the results of oil flowing and weak countries.
Well, I guess it is time to take that cruise down the Nile off my bucket list. I don't think it will be safe for American tourists in Egypt for at least 20 years. And it's too bad --- really wanted to see the second most impressive pyramids in the world. :)
But the US meddling with its pro-democracy (read anti-Muslim Brotherhood) money is just going to create another enemy. The United States does not support democracy at home or abroad. The American brand of democracy is that the people elect dictators who are slavishly indebted to the US. And even that doesn't usually work very well --- Sadaam, Noriega, Marcos, etc.
If we were truly in support of democracy, we would advocte for free elections and support the winner, even if the winner hated this country. As it is, we prefer rigged elections that produce toadies.
To those who think we have no national interests in Egypt I have two words for you - Suez Canal. Do you have any idea what it would mean for the US and the rest of the west to lose access to this canal?!?! Like it or not, the US has a vested interest in seeing Egypt remain a relatively free stable country. Obama made a huge mistake in throwing Mubarak under the bus and we are now paying for it. Obama has this idiotic view that we can turn every country into a democracy and that the people will then elect free thinking liberal secularists to lead them. The truth is Obama's policy of helping to overthrow relatively benign dictators in his quest to spread democracy is resulting in a spread of Islamic fundamentalist governance throughout the middle east. Egyptian elections have already seen the Muslim Brotherhood seize control and the Islamic extremists are taking over in Libya as well. By the time Obama is done there will not be a single secular government left in the Arab world - well done Odumbo.
Time for shock and awe!
Don't waste yur breath JS; many on this blog just don't get it. They live in the la la land of thinking, as did Wilson, as did FDR, as did Clinton, and as does Obama, that pushing isolationsim and cutting down not only our military, but the support of friendly countries, is the key to prosperity. BS. It's the key to World Wars. Our muddling in the Middle East and casting off relationships with time-proven friends - like Mubarak, is now inducing payback of a different sort. THIS kind of stuff would never have happened in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen. or even Libya before the "Arab Spring", which is nothing more than fundamentalist expansion in the guise of demoncracy building by radicals that have been playing Obama and the West like a fiddle. Previous leaders of Egypt and other Arab nations might have been devils - but they were OUR devils, and Americans were safer with them in power than with those that are now fluttering between mob-rule, jihandist fundamentalists, and military dicatorships - and we have the secular liberals in this country to thank for it. Enough said.
Pffffft. I've been hearing that for a while now. My bet is it's as safe as ever. In fact did take a cruise down the Nile about four years back. It was no problem. I walked all over Cairo. Again no problem. It's probably safer than New York. The guys held up in the embassy are involved in politics. Tourists are a different story. The only thing they want of you is to sell you stuff. I might wait till things settle a little more but it isn't going to be 20 years.
JP-345944... All I know is if there are lines at gas stations we will tell our military to go and get it for us. And they will and we will rationalize it as our right. Our military swept the largest Arab army aside in days from their own desert. We live a lot better than 95% of the people in the world. We don't do that with our good looks or superior cunning. Watch what we are capable of - watch the military WWII docs. We unleashed incredible violence (not even counting the bomb). We killed 100,000 on Okinawa and lost 15,000 of our own. We could have starved the Japanese out with deth tolls in the millions - but the bomb came along.
Don't mess with us or we will shed the veneer and take what we want. Rome, England, and all of them did. Let our people really start to suffer and we won't be Mr. Love and Democracy anymore. It is a testimony to our beliefs that we have held back using that force. JMO, but I think it fits with the world out there.
JS in SD... the Suez Canal? Do you know its history? You do not even have to go back earlier than the 20th Century although to make it interesting you should go back into ancient history.
In short, the Suez Canal itself has been blockaded before, extensively, by different power-mongers, and guess what. We, in America, and also Europe and Asia got around that problem lol in more ways than one.
These days think of the technology! Construction sophistication focusing on ability to transport! Sizes of freight and transport which do NOT rely on ships (and yes, some items of freight are huge and already dealt with).
Touristas? lol they need boats? like they need lions and tigers and bears o my in their back yards or spare room! If they are in agony for the view, let them rent a private plane with an accommodating pilot.
Even livestock which some think must go by ship are flown by freight planes successfully, including, for example, race horses, even Thoroughbreds; cattle; rare foliage and cuttings ... atmosphere controlled, food, lol including plant food! the whole ball of wax.
Yes, world countries still use ships but we have withstood the blocked Suez before, repeatedly, and could do it today more speedily and efficiently and even, I have read, more cheaply, with less damage to the freight carried than many dream possible.
Actually, I would like to see the United States totally out of the Mediterranean area, including tourists, and conduct trade ONLY with Israel, and that, easily, by air. (Israeli products are proving superior to any other foreign source, especially China's.
Let's boycott China anyway! Their goods seem cheap but when replacing their short lives, they are the most expensive and shoddy products on the planet.
This is one of those: "I told you so" moments.
Yes it is, almost to the point of being comical. How many billions did our Secretary of State fly in with last year and hand over? The State Department at its finest again. They were told in 1970 about the pending revolution in Iran and did zip. Last year they paid the Muslim Brotherhood who since 1928 has had the sole mission of recreating a new Muslim Empire. Stupid people, do they not read their history?
Thanks, Obooboo, for unleashing that wonderful "Arab Spring" and stabbing Mubarak in the back.....your chickens are coming home to roost now and it won't be good......
Yes, of course. America should always support the opressive dictators of the world, like Mubarak. That will win us lots of friends around the world.
"Obooboo". Without question, this word always the hallmark of a profound, intelligent, well-written post with deep insight and powerful logic. Synonyms include: "Obungo", "Bammy", and "Obobo". Commonly also found in posts referencing Kenyan birth certificates and vast communists conspiracies.
Sam... we should cotton pickin' mind our own business. What do you have in mind? Global Dictatorship by us?
And we are sooooooo with it, huh. Such a great example of Democracy?
Sheesh... personally I am totally content with our way of life and culture and ideals here in the USA, but I sure do not think I have any right to tell someone who is on a different track that they are wrong and I am right.
Bottom line, sure, we have the right to defend ourselves and prevail against terrorist attempts on us. But what is this "conversion" idea coming out of the White House? Again, remember March, 2011, where we interfered and bombed Libya with absolutely no provocation aimed at us.
Keep our fathers, brothers, sons and all those we love who are in the military out of the Middle East. And, it appears, that American citizens should think twice or as much as it takes to figure the down side ... before working and living over there. It isn't worth it.
Chris,
Well stated!
Chris.....I noticed you have nothing to counter my post with but whining and crying about the "Divider in Chief's" name(s)......typical......
*WOOOSH*
If the US would simply tend to its own affairs, such as creating jobs at home, the trade imbalance, bringing manufacturing back home, our own crumbling infrastructure, and stay the hell out other countries internal affairs things would be infinitely better for everyone. I know there is a ton of money in the military for contractors and oil plays a big part of that. However there are alternatives right here that could create just as money and benefit American citizens. It is really all up to the voters as to their willingness to put with the same old, or make a major change in congress.
Until they create genetically engineered political candidates that are immune to campaign contributions and lobbyists, anyone who believes that a newly-elected official is any less susceptible to their influence than an incumbent is hopelessly naive. It's the system that's broken, not the candidates.
Ahh, but there is one candidate... Ron Paul.
I think Gary Trudeau put it best, regarding Ron Paul: "Dr. Paul, while may people share some of your views, very few people share them all. The fact is, your philosophy is pure utopianism. No modern society could function under a libertarian government, which is why none exists."
Chris... a rather vivid metaphor :) Actually, maybe I am a dumbell (and there are many here who are sure of it), but I still have faith in a few... of course not all... who are labeled "politicians." I truly believe and hope that there are those you are wrong about.
There have been good presidents, highly intelligent, too, in our history... We must study the past and get next to what is right (NO lol i am not using this as a label for political parties! :) )... reread the ideals America was founded upon, and not allow the baddies to contort the meaning...
... nor the ignorant, nor the self-serving ...
I still have faith in the citizens of our country... the silent majority. They can and will be heard at the elections. And please get next to this... never underrate American citizens.
We are not stupid.
HeartsQuest - I have to disagree; I believe that on average, American citizens are by far among the most narrow-minded and uninformed people in the industrialized world. Never before has there been such a large number of people with nearly unlimited access to information and resources with which to inform themselves about domestic and foreign affairs who willingly choose to ignore these resources and instead focus on narrow talking-points and ideologically-fueled debates that ignore the real issues.
The "silent majority" you speak of is anything but a majority. It's a tiny, tiny block of voters, maybe 5% of the total, who actually make an informed choice and decide the outcome of elections. I honestly do not think I'm overstating matters when I say that probably better than 90% of the population votes strictly on party lines for no other reason than, "Well, daddy was a Democrat/Republican".
Vote Ron Paul?
Can't and won't ever be done. The USA has a long nose and doesn't mind sticking it where it doesn't belong!
:) Chris... between you and me and the gatepost... you make absolutely accurate points... and a gift for conciseness. But, just one observation... Are you sure? How do you know? Based on us'ns here?
OK... I will admit that probably 99-44/100% of us who are here are... Extroverts? And many of us whale around hitting one side or another of the issues, sometimes doing a few quantum leaps through logic. And some of us (including me) plop as a result... The folks who post here are amazing though, regardless.
LOL there used to be a motto in the "Letters to the Editor" of the New York Times... wonder why it disappeared! ;)
"Disagree if you must, but try not to be disagreeable." (If I remember that correctly.)
Folks who post as well as you do follow that rule... and that alone is persuasive.
And people wonder why anti-Americanism is so prevalent around the world. How can you fund political groups in another country and not expect them to get upset? This is the kind of meddling in the affairs of other countries that causes problems for the US. The military aid is bad enough.
There's a simple solution. If you don't like what they're doing - cut off the military aid (which should done anyways - the government can't afford it).
The US isn't the only country to do this by any means. The EU, China, Russia, and others all do this in the Middle East, and in fact several Middle Eastern countries, as well as both China and Russia, overtly do the same in the US (and probably many more do it covertly). This is a common method of international diplomacy: convince the people of the other nation to agree with you.
I agree with your first paragraph, Admetum... but not with your second. When we stop trying to right what we view as the wrongs of a totally different culture and value system that dominates (with one important country's exception) the Middle East, we actually cannot afford to cut back our Military...
I absolute agree we should also mind our own business and stop trying to interfere or.. ugh... bribe these countries. It simply has been proven that NEITHER works!!!!
At the same time, I think we have a right to protect ourselves from them and I have no problem with the drones.. though I may be wrong about this. But we must maintain our Military superiority.. and that is for Defense!
Not starting wars... ever. Our own Constitution prohibits that.
HeartsQuest, Baby Bush didn't have any problem violating the Constitution. Look where that got us!
when did bush violate the constitution.
jean pear... wow you didn't do your homework. You may not realize it, but we had 14, count them FOURTEEN terrorist attacks by Islamic Extremists between 1993 and 2003. The ones you should remember, though are the 1993 World Trade Center bombing in New York City (when Bill Clinton was president), and terrorist attacks repeated in 2001... commonly called 9/11, the World Trade Center suicide bombings, also in New York City... when George W. Bush presided.
"Baby Bush"???... my, you do liberals and Democrats no credit... I think they must be blushing for you.
President George W. Bush followed all provisions of the Constitution when the previous attacks during Bill Clinton's presidency had been blandly handled, although they were exacerbating. The response to 9/11 by President Bush and his staff was meticulously Constitutional.
Which Barack Obama did NOT do when HE started the war against Libya in March, 2011. You obviously are ignorant of the requirements under the American Constitution. We do not attack another country without ratification by Congress. Bush did it right. Obama didn't. Bush had irrefutable evidence of our being attacked. The United States had never been attacked by Libya.
Obama tried to get ratification from Congress FIVE MONTHS after he, on his own recognizance (which he doesn't have, btw), sent over five bombers that bombed Libya during Libya's internal gangs of unruly groups.
Think of Occupiers with guns... who still don't know why they are shooting... their mouths off.
The gangs within Libya were not only fighting Qaddafi but each other. We are not Qaddafi fans here, but in that case he intended to keep order; rule the unruly. That had nothing to do with us nor anyone else outside the boundaries of Libya. And, not surprisingly, the "victors" whom we helped are now proving that they are not a smidgen different from their predecessor Qaddafi ... as anyone who researched the facts would have known.
If any president of ours doesn't know enough to stay out of other people's civil wars without Congressional ratification beforehand he flirts with impeachment.
George W. Bush followed Constitutional laws meticulously. That JJ, is what the Executive Branch of our Federal Government is supposed to do... execute the instructions of Congress. He is not autonomous. He is an Administrative Assistant... perhaps we can think of him as an Executive Assistant... emphasis on the word "Assistant."
And, just in case you do not know what Congress is... Congress R US! We, who vote, who are citizens here, are the boss. Not the President. Congress directly represents the legal voters of this Nation... we run the United States and, via Congress, make the laws. Not, never, no how the President. He can suggest, even advise. We consent. Or don't, consent, as the case may be.
So quit with the name-calling; otherwise I'll indulge in calling you JJ for Juvenile Jean... and if you don't get it... that points to an immature mind that does not understand the difference between emotional hearsay and intelligent research of the facts.
Get with your research JJ.
HeartsQuest, great explanation. It would be nice if our Congress would stop arguing & address these infractions you listed. I don't know why our government would give over a billion dollars to a government where 42% of the seats were won by members of the M Brotherhood in the first place.
It seems like American military aide to middle eastern nations is a fool's errand. The trend seems to be:
1. Sell billions of dollars of weapons and military vehicles to an authoritarian regime
2. Population ousts dictator
3. New middle eastern theocracy now has a buttload of your best fighters and tanks
If you think I'm exaggerating, look up the stats on Egypt's military. If a hard-line Islamic theocracy took over (like in Iran, who owns the world's only active F-14s thanks to us), they'd have the world's second-largest force of M1 Abrams tanks at their disposal, because we thought it was a dandy idea to sell them thousands of them. They also have a nice fleet of F-16s and other assorted American hardware.
...but Mubarek was a "bad guy", just like Saddam. Doesn't that justify at least supporting his enemies, if not an invasion of Egypt? What's the difference?
Saddam wasn't a "bad guy" for our foreign policy until he decided to screw with the oil supply in the '90s. Before that, we were selling him scads of weapons with which to fight the Iranians. He was just dumb enough to bite the hand that had fed him right after the Soviet Union had collapsed, and we had a big, bad army all fired up with no one to fight. If you doubt that, ask yourself why the US left him in power even after thoroughly humiliating his military. The answer? He was a strong, stable, secular leader in an area in which the US wished to deny hard-line Islamic regimes yet another foothold.
Geez, Chris, I've been making these same points for decades and beginning to think I was a singular voice in the wilderness. Yes, you are absolutely right. We support the wrong people at the wrong time, build them up at our cost and then abandon them to our ideological enemies, again, at precisely the wrong time and often for no reason or the worst and most self-defeating reasons. It's mind-bogglingly stupid. Needless to say, we've pretty much rid the Mideast and North African littoral of any and every nation with any pretense to being a secular society and turned it over to the radical jihadists. Iran, in 1979, was a trial run for that policy, but it's picked up since then and now seems irreversible. It seems we won't be happy until we really do establish the "Universal Caliphate" which pledges to destroy us.
Makes you wonder if all of our successive administrations have really been that monumentally stupid, or if they're just trying to organize the next global conflict. The Cold War turned out to be great for us; it catapulted us into the nuclear, space, and information ages. Nothing like a good ideological struggle to keep the juices flowing, you know?
Chris: Just for clarification, we did not sell "thousands" of M-1's to Egypt. We engaged in a joint operation to produce this tank in Egypt, almost as bad. Approx. 880 have been produced so far with another 250 slotted for production, a total of 1,130.
They also build M1 Abrams in Egypt.
Scary.
We need to get our military out of the Middle East and our "trade" in weaponry with the Islamic nations absolutely stopped.
We must not cease to keep our Military Defense strong... we are going to need them over here... badly if you folks are right.
Chris and oldefarte; Regarding your posts #6.2 and 6.3, welcome to the real world and the hard line game of geopolitical politics. To achieve a desired end result, sometimes nasty things take place.
I would hate to be Israel right with that type of fire power Egypt has right now!
Chris:
Technology is great equalizer. It is time to let yesterday be yesterday.
We are stuck with fear of American Indians as brute trying to kill us while we exterminated their culture and population. We are folowing same story time and again. We cannot win wars that will end our having hegemony. Iraq proves that. Afghanistan will prove it soon. To attach a country that has 1/1000 the time WMD that we have based on they will attach us, is fools Gold.
Arab nations will undergo restructuring. They are bright people with very strong culture. As they get more educated, thigns will dramatically change. New sun is rising there. And it will bring forces that will make desert bloom and powerful force will emerge.
People do not love us because we are the richest or have largest number of nukes or WMD, They love us for our system that let orddianry person rise to the top. It is hope that they also would like to have society that can do that. That is what they want to learn from us.
Our fears, our arrogant and Israel's policies and politics that is stanidng in the way of friendship and good future for whole world. Let us not fear and extend hand of friendship that respects their people, their culture, their indpendence.
You all seem to be reading into my comments a lot more than I am actually saying. I don't recall either praising or denigrating American foreign policy in my posts; I'm just stating the facts as they are, for the benefit of those who don't understand how these things work.
Ceo (Msg. #6.8) - I am quite familiar with "realpolitik" and "geopolitical realities". For instance, leaving Saddam in power, in 1991, was brilliant - he had been defanged sufficiently to make him manageable, however, he still presented a restraining threat to our enemies, the Iranians, and, more importantly, to our "friends", the Saudis and Kuwaitis, who, without the threat of Saddam hanging over them, would have had no cause to give us basing rights or cheap oil (note to Bush Jr - once you got rid of Saddam, did you notice how willing the Saudis were to tell you to "pack sand" when you begged them, in 2008, to increase their oil output?).
I can stomach nastiness in the name of geopolitics. I figure people who live under dictatorships do so because they don't care enough not to and it's not our job to help them "live free". What neither Chris nor I can figure out is why we shoulder all these costs and opprobrium for the sake of policies which are manifestly disadvantageous to us and our interests. Why did we get rid of Mubarak? Why did we yank our support from the Shah? Why, when Gaddhafi had finally started to clean up his act, did we decide to help Al Qaeda overthrow him? "Realpolitik" I can handle. Errant stupidity is a tad tougher to accept...
Then explain to me why we got involved in Bosnia and Kosovo? Humanitarian reasons? Really? Bombing Serbian commuter trains is "humanitarian"? Making it possible for Albanian Kosovar jihadists to terrorize Christian Serbs is "humanitarian"? Turning the Balkans into an Al Qaeda training camp is "humanitarian"? WTF?
This isn't the "real world", this is a nut house and our Presidents are seemingly the biggest idiots in the asylum.
The military production machine: rolling, rolling, rolling, keep that money rolling - rawhide!
oldefarte: If your age matches your username...then you have seen enough to know by now that the norm for the real world is a nut house, occupied by the most despicable creature on the face of the planet, the human being, as evidenced by your points. The aberration takes place only when there is a lull in the madness...if that ever does take place.
Israel has nukes. I don't think they are worried about an outright invasion.
oldefarte is right. Clinton should have never gotten us involved in Bosnia and Serbia. They had been fighting each other for 630 years! That was their problem, not ours.
Meanwhile the cost of policing the entire world is wrecking the U.S. economy. Our government should spend more time, money and effort fixing our problems. We have people going hungry, people that are homeless, people that have no medical care. Why are other countries more deserving of our nation's attention than are own people are?
We've been meddling in Egypt since the second world war. We've propped up Mubarak even when we knew of his nasty behavior towards his own citizens. Why? Look up where we build and maintain our tanks in the middle east. We need to get out of all these little third world nations and get back to worrying about ourselves. Ron Paul in 2012!
We should also be withholding monetary aid to Israel... why are still supporting them monetarily? they dont need it... they use most of it to arm themselves and are increasingly totally ignoring the USA. At the very least we need to put strings on that money so that they dont just automatically get the money for nothing.
The Isreali lobby, the Gingrich campaign budget, is why we support a country that seems to want to stir up problems for us and the ME.
Well lol upyours...
I must disagree, but for reasons I have studied. OK, a caveat. I'm not Israeli; I'm American. But I enjoy research and this is a hot issue. I found information that intrigued me and I think you should know I have three different copies, translations, of the Islamic Qur'an which I have reviewed. (Understanding the Qur'an is vital, as all the alleged "Arab Spring" countries are Theocracies... rather unusual in the modern world.)
But upyours are you really so anti-Semitic yourself that you do not see the advantage that Israel is to our survival in this Western World of ours?
Please think again. We need Israel as much if not more than they need us. My opinion may not be agreeable to you, but I have done quite a bit of research on this. And I am not Jewish. Third generation Irish like me seldom are :).
Funny how Obama or any President before did not say they had to have a "fair election" FUNDED by our country before to get the yearly pile of billions of American tax payer dollars.
Within 2 years America will close it's embassy there. And in Iraq. And in Afghainstan. And in Pakistan. And every country ending in 'Stan'. Why? They hate our guts no matter how many good things we do for them (like overthrowing a tyrant in Hussein, Gahdaffi, etc).
NO matter what kind of good things we do they will always turn it around and use it against us.
Muslims world wide are the most UNAPPRECIATIVE bunch of hoodlums on the planet.
more2bits.....I agree that many of these countries don't like the United States. They tolerate the US when it suits their purposes or financial aid is involved. Why? Because the United States has trouble minding its own business more often than not. Americans would never stand for another country meddling in their affairs. If that's the case, why does the American government constantly do it to others?
Admetum, we in the USA put up with China, Isreal, UK, etc. etc. etc. meddling in our affairs. They all have lobyists, or "historians" to assist us in making the "right" decision on foriegn aid, military intervention, humanitarian aid, most favored nation, etc. etc. etc.
We are so used to having others meddle in our country, we get the mistaken idea they would enjoy it too.
LMAO
more2bits, you are ignorant of what muslims appreciate. The muslims that have come to America, came here because of religious, political, and class oppression. They came to the land of freedom and my muslim acquaintances seem to be extremely appreciative.
IMHO......great point.
Let us hope that we are not forced to close our embassies in any country that we need to keep an eye on. Our greatest strength/weakness is intelligence.We can't afford to close those doors.
Foreign aid to Egypt:
$1,550,000,000+
Getting your money's worth?
There is one candidate who will end this madness...
Yes, there is one candidate that will end this madness and start a totally new madness of his own. LMAO
Yes, places like Switzerland, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Japan, Canada. All headline grabbing 'madness' Non-interventionist nations, all renowned for their absolutely off the hook foreign policies. :).
His non-interventionism wouldn't be so bad if only we didn't also have to deal with his opposition to the Civil Rights Act and his numerous statements in opposition to the First Amendment.
To blame Obama for the "Arab Spring" is typical of right wing rhetoric. If you wanted to blame anyone surely it would be George W. Bush who stirred up that whole hornet's nest in the first place. (Yeah he had reason-like the bombers had reason-like the oil companies had reason-and the Germans and the English and the Jews and the Turks and ... well you get the point.) However, I believe that would be giving way too much credit to the influence of the American President and the USA for that matter. In case you hadn't noticed modern technology has changed the world you knew and you had better get used to it. And also there are plenty of past sins to atone for- on all sides. Get over it and get along or perish.
While I agree with your opinion that no US president has had much influence on Arab Spring, I think it is definite that Obama had more than Bush. Iraq and Afghanistan didn't influence Arab Spring nearly as much as the unrest in Iran and the global financial shake-up (which goes back a lot further than Bush). If anything, Iraq and Afghanistan probably deterred Arab Spring (a little) by showing how much utter chaos could result for a dissolved government.
Gee, let's see - for almost 30 years, Egypt has been the closest thing the US has to a real ally in the Arab world - a generally secular state, with religious freedom (unusual in the Muslim world and utterly absent in places like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait), women's rights, and a solid peace treaty with Israel, which has worked for decades. So, what do we do? We yank our support from the very government that yielded these things and now we have a rapidly radicalizing Egypt, where the jihadist Muslim Brotherhood is taking over, Coptic Christians are being murdered and their churches burnt, women are being forced into burquahs, and the US is so detested that our citizens must live in fear of their lives (oh, and as a side effect, the Egyptians have been destroying and looting their archaeological sites and museums - shades of the destruction of the Library of Alexandria). What a great foreign policy.
Indeed, it's been so good that we decided to do the same thing in Libya (also a secular state with some trappings of minority and women's rights, and one which had finally come back into the "family of nations" by suspending its WMD research and development, renouncing terrorism, and paying reparations for past terrorism). Gaddhafi's reward for finally becoming a responsible member of the international order? Well, let's see, we bombed him out of power and left him to be beaten and sodomized to death with a knife (if you have a strong stomach, you can watch it on YouTube...). We're doing the same thing in Syria, which, as little as 20 years ago, was allied with us against Iraq (another secular, Arab nation that has now become an Al Qaeda playground thanks to our intervention). Before that, we did it to the Shah of Iran, and what a great result we got from that - thanks, Jimmy Carter. Jump across the Mediterranean to Bosnia and Kosovo and you'll find the USA bombing the pro-Western, Christian Serbs into submission for the sake of Muslim terrorists in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Albania (with their gratitude for our help shown by multiple terrorist plots against the US and US interests just this last week alone). And, of course, we lost any chance of bringing post-Soviet Russia into a friendly alliance, by our support of the radical Islamists in Chechnya (you know, the folks who massacre school children in Russia, when they aren't attacking our troops in Afghanistan).
I would have to work really, really, really hard to come up with a more bone-headed foreign policy for the Eastern Mediterranean/Mideast than that which has prevailed for the last 20 years (indicting both Democratic and Republican Administrations). Indeed, it might take more effort than I am capable of to screw it up as badly as Clinton, Bush, and Obama have screwed it up. Kudos are in order - you three morons take the cake, you three idiots collectively represent the dumbest, possible foreign policy imaginable. Are any of you surprised at how badly it is all turning out? Anyone who knew jack about the region could have predicted the dire results we are now seeing, yet the State Department, with all of its experts, seems to have been oblivious if not actually pernicious.
Oldefarte:
We can bring about dramatic change in Middle East.
IF we can make Israel agree to Saudi proposal that all Arabs will recognise Israel in exchange for freedom for Palestinians with minor adjustment to 1967 border. This coupled by fair treatment of all Israeli citizens either Arabsm, Christians, Muslims or dark skinned Jews that will set example that west practices religious freedom. Right now we are saying by Israel example that it is ok to be religious country and to descriminate others who are not of dominant faith.
We have to stop dealing with nations on military help. We along with our Allies should stop all kind of military aids to all the countries where milirary play substantial part in free domestic political process.
Thisgs can change. We need to move away from expediency and injustice to fairness and democracy without WMD. We are too big and need to treat all nations firly and respectfully. We can make better world happen but not by act like supporting Mubarak in exploiting its people or supporting Israel in its occupation
I believe the Israeli's can take care of themselves. Is it not common knowledge that a dirty nuke or three will be dropped on the Aswan Dam and along the Nile if they are attacked by Egypt? You know- the sort of thing that will keep the Nile delta radioactive for a few centuries. As for the rest of it- let's get it out in the open. Tell us how you really feel and we can act accordingly. As it is now-we donate weapons and wealth for what reason -please? Besides things often have to get worse before they get better. Before too long the weapons will begin to fail. These new technologies will be just as effective against the new rulers as the old. And if people are being abused and women brutalized in these countries what should we do about that? Nothing except report it.
Hi Mr Olde....
I am just struggling to understand what option we had in Egypt. What if we had supported Mubarak and stood by while he brutally suppressed the popular uprising against his rule and lost anyway ? We would have landed on the wrong side of history and earned the wrath of the Egyptian public for supporting an unpopular tyrant.
I think we did the best we could have done in the situation. We did what will be perceived by many to be a morally upright thing to do.
So, Mr. India, you think it was better that we supported Mubarak's ouster, in return for which we sent a message to the world (once again) that it is dangerous to be an American ally? Oh, and in case you didn't notice, our "reward" for doing the "morally correct" thing was to earn us the enmity and "wrath" of BOTH the Egyptian public AND the Egyptian military. There might have been limited choices, but choosing the path where you are guaranteed to lose on all counts seems to me to be proof of idiocy...
I agree...I was amazed that The Obama administration seemed content with Mubarak's demise.He was a good ally for many years and kept peace with Israel.I was equally amazed at the 20 somethings portrayed as the "social media heroes" who were all smiles in the documentaries and news stories that aired a year ago about how they organized to bring Mubarak down..I remember thinking...ok so you got this done now let's see you run a country..I venture to stay whatever comes of Eqypt in the long run,in the short run the Eqyptian people and the middle east as a whole are much worse off
So let me get this strait, Old... You're arguing that we should have helped put down a democratic revolution against a dictator?
I believe we need to address the economic problems here in the US first then we can do what we can to help other nations if we have the fund to help we should not be spending money that the government does not have.
How many of you people out there spend twice as much as you earn?
Why does the government get to spend more than they earn? Why cant they live within a BUDGET?
That is why the people of th US are getting so upset with the government here who is going to back us when we want to start an uprising here to get rid of the CROOKS IN WASHINGTON!
Mr Olde -
I don't know sir. But i personally think that we did the smart thing by siding with the winning side. Also - by doing that we finally put our money where our mouth is. For much too long America has been preaching democracy but supporting dictators. Now at least our Foreign policy is in line with our professed values - A fact that could go a long way in removing confusion in the mind of others who see us as being duplicitous.
Unfortunately we are way too late for what we should have done in Egypt. I think that we should never have turned a blind eye to his oppressive treatment of his people. We could have tied the aid we were sending to a progression of reforms that would have helped the people under Mubarak. Not just aid for the country but personal rewards to Mubarak himself for implementing reforms as we went along in time. Eventually this would end in a free society most likely not needing our aid and a rich, happy dictator who would need to retire to get his last incentive package. I know this is simplistic but sometimes the simplest ideas are the best.
BTW I'm loving all the constructive thought going on on this page instead of all the usual name-calling and personal bashing between liberals and conservatives that I usually read at the end of each article. Kudos people!!!
That Billion dollars would go a long way if it stayed here in America. We need to let the world fight there own battles, if and when they pick a fight with us directly then we take care of the evil bugs. Billion dollars would go a long ways for our security and communities. Take all the money we give away and build a shield around Ameica and let the rest of the idiots kill each other.
Our Government spends $6.85 MILLION dollars a minute....That Billion dollars would last 2 1/2 hours....
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027782-503544.html
We have to stop dealing with military. Secondly we should not go and do things in other country if we are not goign to allowed citizens of that country to operate their supported civic organization to help our democracy. For me it is not such a big deal.
When we opt for democratic Governments in other country, it follows we respect such Government and their nationaal aspiration and freedom for them to act without our approval and our way of thinking.
Otherwise what it looks like we prefer puppet Government, preferably democratic but if not dictatorship.
We are a big elephant and we should watch how we walk and where we walk. Because elephant by it smovement makes little lives in and around its path nervous, whether we are danger to it or not.
Ah, the "Arab Spring".....ain't it a great thing?
I think we skipped summer and fall and are going right into winter.
Ruken, this is the Arab world, don't you know that seasons go backwards? They always go from Summer, to Spring, to Winter, to Fall.
Seems pretty straightforward, either stop messing with our people or kiss the funding goodbye.
Fact.......that's not a bad solution in most cases. Unfortunately, in this case, it was the United States that provoked the response by funding oppostiion political groups in their country. It's been a military dictatorship for the past 30-40 years. How do you think they'd respond?
Another brilliant Move Obama... sheesh... Now we have a a bunch of USA-Haters in Egypt. Please, get this guy out office... "ABO 2012", my new rally cry.
chuck......perhaps you should read the article again. It clearly stated that the NGO's were loosely associated with both parties. This isn't about President Obama. This is about the United States government. Congress approves where money is spent - not the President.
Hi Chuck
I think the public in Egypt is very appreciative of the role US played in procuring them freedom from a tyrant. It's just the next tyrant in the line (Egyptian military) which is unhappy with the US.
If on the other hand we had supported Mubarak as he killed his own people, we would definitely have added to the ranks of US-Haters in that country.
And they say, America is broke. The same people who say, Go To WAR! Defend our Country! Human, an animal that can keep 15 contradictory thoughts alive in their brain at one time.
Keep juggling!
Keep OUR money at home! Stop wasting U.S. taxpayers' hard-earned money on countries who absolutely HATE us, no matter how many bones we throw at them. You can't buy those so-called "people" off! I really thought this was a very obvious fact!
"Meet the new boss ..... same as the old boss." ---Bruce Springsteen
Oh, did The Who give Springsteen permission to do that song?
Nice catch
They elected people that were far worse than what they had before. If the people in the Mid East want change they are going to have to stop electing fascist religious zealots as their ruling party.
The people of the ME want America to allow them self determination. If they want self determination at the point of a bayonette or religious pogrom, so be it. We can pick up the pieces later, I guess.
"OVER U.S. FUNDING " Our congress can't get a balanced budget and this is WHY!
There is more money going to those Dam*ed counties through channels that we have never heard of, PLUS That dam*ed U.N. is sucking the U.S. taxpayer dry!
IF those jackas*ses in Congress would stop ALL AID until we were in the black it would take about 5 years. THAT is how much of OUR tax money goes to support the rest of the world!
THIS IS the mentality that congress and the liberals just can't get thought through their stupid heads. WE the American tax payer CAN'T and don't HAVE TO support, feed or anything else in this world!
Got any data there to back up your weird little claim, Professor Steven?
WOW toasty I thought that was a no brainer that the US government was broke and Trillions of dollars in debt then why are we supporting any other country before getting our $hit in order.
I am actually a lot more liberal than conservative I think... but probably both sides would call me maverick... my boss does.
That said, extremes (if included in voicing opinions) rarely, but... sometimes can get the attention with borderline legitimately. That said...
Metaphors, ladies and gentlemen... :) (I am gonna bop myself for saying this)... "Extremes can be metaphors for facing reality." sigh.. the quotes mean that I can disagree with myself. You sensible folks will probably ignore me.
That alll said... lol I think Stephen100 is right.
I'm just suggesting you present your data and numbers publicly, Doctor Steve.