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Mustafa Elogbi, 60, a U.S. citizen of Libyan origins, poses for pictures with children from a refugee camp during a visit to Libya in 2011.
Remember Jamal Tarhuni, the U.S. businessman whom msnbc.com reported on last week because he was denied boarding on his flight home from North Africa and summoned to the U.S. Embassy for questioning by the FBI? It turns out a second American is in the same security limbo in Tripoli — also a Libyan-born businessman from Portland, Oregon. In some ways, the story of Mustafa Elogbi, 60, is even more harrowing.
Now both are in limbo in Tripoli, saying they don’t know why they were targeted, nor whether they will be allowed to proceed home.
"My husband has been traveling (to Libya) for the last three years, regularly," Elogbi’s wife, Annie Petrossian, said in a phone interview from Portland. "Now suddenly the regime changes in Libya, and it becomes an issue. How come it was not an issue just three months ago before the regime changed in Libya? And now it became a problem?"
The secrecy that surrounds security investigations makes them extremely difficult to assail. But civil rights activists say these cases suggest a troubling pattern — or two of them — that the federal government should address.
The nonprofit Muslim civil rights group Council on American Islamic Relations is calling for the Department of Justice to investigate "a pattern of unconstitutional activity emanating from the FBI's Field Office in Portland."
The Libyan League for Human Rights says it is looking into a pattern "of American citizens of Libyan descent who traveled to Libya during the revolution (and) have been detained and interrogated by the FBI, TSA, and CBP in recent months …. The individuals in question were asked about their activities in Libya as well as their political and religious leanings."
Elogbi, like Tarhuni, is a naturalized U.S. citizen and longtime Portland resident. He first came to the United States as a student in the 1970s. Elogbi met and married his wife in Portland, and they have raised five children there, while running a small retail business.
US aid worker: US bars my return
A few years ago, toward the end of the decades-long dictatorship of Moammar Gadhafi in Libya, when Washington and Tripoli improved ties, Elogbi finally returned to Libya to visit family, Petrossian said.
"It was his father (in Libya) who was always saying, 'Don’t come back, don’t come back, there are no rights here,'" said Petrossian. "It had been about 30 years since he had been to Libya before he went to visit."
During the revolution to topple Gadhafi in 2011, Elogbi got involved in humanitarian work in Libya, traveling there several times over the past year, visiting hospitals and refugee camps.
UK officials and 'Brian' from Portland
This time, Elogbi boarded a flight from Tunisia to London on Jan. 8 after spending more than two months in Libya. He planned to spend a one-night layover with relatives in London before flying to Portland.
But when Elogbi stepped off the plane at London’s Heathrow Airport, he was met by four British agents who told him to hand over his passport and cell phone.
"They said, 'The order is coming from your own home country,'" said Petrossian.
He then spent several hours being detained, questioned, photographed and searched. The UK asked him questions about what he was doing in Libya, the whereabouts of his siblings in and outside Libya, and with whom he spent time on his last day in Libya. Petrossian said the last day of her husband’s trip happened to overlap with that of a friend from Portland, so they spent it together. Security officials wanted to know that man’s job.
"(The officials) said that they weren’t going to let him fly back to the U.S., and that protocol was that he was to be sent back to Tunisia," she said.
Elogbi reportedly spent three days locked up in Colnbrooks— an immigration removal center near Heathrow Airport — before he was put on a flight back to Tunis.
"They transported him in the back of a truck; it was nighttime and it was a very frightening situation," said Petrossian. "He was being treated … like some sort of a criminal. It was really, really traumatizing. … He was stripped of his rights. It was horrific."
From Tunis, Elogbi returned to Tripoli to be with relatives, and has remained there since. When someone who identified himself only as "Brian" repeatedly called Elogbi on his cell phone saying he wanted to interview Elogbi, and that he should go to the embassy in Tunisia, he refused.
It later became clear that Brian was an agent from the FBI field office in Portland — one of three agents who had flown in to question him and Tarhuni.
Elogbi did not go to Tunis, about a one-hour flight from Tripoli, for what was being billed as an interview.
"He wasn't well enough to travel," according to Petrossian, who said her husband had a bad case of bronchitis. "And he wondered why he should be interviewed by the FBI outside the United States … and why they would send three agents across the world to see him. Interesting. My husband is somebody who is always available when he’s in Portland."
Muslim travelers say they're still saddled with 9/11 baggage
Is mosque the nexus?
The lack of information on these cases and others like them has the families, civil rights advocates and lawyers grasping for an explanation.
For Portland Muslims, it’s easy to characterize the Tarhuni and Elogbi cases as an extension of FBI focus on their community, and on the As-Saber Mosque, where many of them worship, in particular.
Lina Tarhuni, 23, subscribes to this theory to help explain her father’s ordeal.
"(The FBI) is running into a dead wall. … They just want to find just one person so they can say look we caught a bad guy … went to this mosque. They have no more information here … now the only way to do it, is by saying that we need to tap into people who are traveling."
Some of the Portland Seven, who were indicted in 2001 on allegations that they were plotting to work with al-Qaida and wage war against the United States, had attended As-Saber.
Another terrorism suspect, "Christmas Tree bomber" Mohamud Osman Mohamud, was known to pray at the mosque.
The FBI tracked Mohamud, a Somali-American teenager, for several years and then swooped in and arrested him when, at 19, he allegedly tried to detonate a bomb at a crowded Christmas tree lighting event in Portland on November 2010. The bomb was a fake provided by an FBI undercover agent posing as a member of a ring of Islamist extremists.
When the case goes to trial in April the prosecution is expected to lay out Mohamud’s alleged efforts to contact al-Qaida and his radical beliefs. The defense will argue that the FBI used entrapment to net the young Mohamud.
Another As-Saber worshipper is Brandon Mayfield, a Portland attorney whom the FBI erroneously linked to a 2004 bombing in Spain that killed 191 people. Mayfield, a convert to Islam, was held as a material witness in a Portland detention center for two weeks without charges on the chance that he might have information about the bombings. Ultimately, a court dismissed the case, and the FBI apologized and admitted to faulty fingerprinting.
Michael Migliore, a Muslim convert who attended the mosque, found he was — apparently — on the government’s no-fly list when he tried to leave Portland to visit his mother in Italy. Migliore took a train to the East coast, then boarded a cruise ship to London, because he could not fly. Even then he was questioned by British authorities and detained for about 10 hours before being allowed to travel on.
The FBI is cornering subjects like Elogbi and Tarhuni overseas, where they are under pressure to talk without legal counsel or become informants because their passage home is at stake, according to Gadeir Abbas, a staff attorney for CAIR who has worked on many no-fly cases.
"It’s a way to get consent to an FBI interrogation that otherwise would not be forthcoming," said Abbas, who has had dozens of cases involving Muslim Americans who were detained and questioned overseas and, in a number of cases, denied the right to fly home to the United States.
Interrogating by proxy sometimes also has advantages for U.S. investigators, he said.
"In this case, British customs officials have been enlisted to do what the FBI would not be allowed to do in the United States — to detain Mr. Elogbi without due process and to intimidate him into giving up his constitutional right to silence," he argued.
Are Libyan Americans a new target?
There may be another trend represented by Tarhuni and Elogbi’s plight, according to Yasmeen Ar-Rayani, the North American spokeswoman of the Libyan League for Human Rights.
"I think the tactic that CAIR is highlighting is most likely being employed here,” said Ar-Rayani. "But the motives they have for employing it are different than in other cases."
"The U.S. has a real strategic interest in controlling the outcome of the Libyan revolution. One way of exerting that control is to find ways of intimidating problematic people in the community … or to infiltrate these problematic circles with informants."
After Tarhuni’s daughter posted his plight on line two weeks ago, the human rights league started receiving reports from other Libyan Americans of seemingly similar encounters with security officials in recent months — at borders, some when visited by agents in their homes, and some where the subject was prohibited from flying. They are exploring about 15 complaints to see if they support a strong hunch.
Initially, at least, Ar-Rayani says questioning seems to focus on the political affiliations, contacts and religious persuasions: With whom did they spend time with in Libya, where are their siblings, what role did they play in the revolution, did they have contact with Islamist parties or extremist groups such as al-Qaida, did they have contact with or see the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya?
Testing the water
Elogbi and Tarhuni have booked new tickets and are scheduled to board a flight back to the United States on Feb. 13, arriving in Portland on Feb. 14. Their Portland attorney, Tom Nelson, is traveling to the region so he can accompany them on the flight.
The two men do not know whether they are included on the U.S. government’s secret no-fly list. As per government security policy, the FBI will not confirm or deny it.
The FBI field office in Portland also declined comment on the case involving the Portland men.
Thus they do not know if they will be prevented from boarding in Tunis, or in Paris or Amsterdam, where they change planes. They say that Mike Sweeney, consul at the U.S. Embassy, in Tunis told them, to go ahead and book their flights home, making sure to inform of their itinerary.
Sweeney responded last week that he could not comment on the cases of Tarhuni or Elogbi, out of privacy concerns. He did not respond to further queries about the travel status for the two men.
They do not know if they face FBI questioning if they get to Portland, nor whether they will be barred from further air travel, said Petrossian, Elogbi's wife.
"I don’t know what to expect until they are on that very last flight,” she said. “Even when they land here, what is going to happen next? We really don’t know what to expect."
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Disgusting ! Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. How would you like to be (mis)treated this way?
It's a scary thing. I remember flying back from Canada several years ago and being given a hard time by the immigration agent. I put up with his bullying because I wanted to get home. What I should have done was have his supervisor called. I can only imagine how much worse it is for these guys in another hemisphere and having the FBI involved.
Agreed! These are US citizens and deserve full rights of citizens.
However, I have NO problem questioning them based on their activities. It makes good sense even. If they've done something illegal then arrest them there and fly them home. If they are suspected of being terrorists then question and search them at the airport but if they don't appear to pose an immediate threat allow them to return to the US. Then if a concern wait at the airport and detain them moment the step off the airplane for further questioning. If there's any evidence arrest and try them in court, if not then they deserve the rights of any citizen to be set free.
That's the problem when we start making exceptions to our rights. Soon this will be happening to others as well.
We already have Americans on our no fly lists.
I guess this is what the wingnuts call 'heaven', is what the rest of used to call East Germany. Welcome to theTattletale State.
Ya know, for the last 20 years (most recent 10) the World-at-large has become so @!$%#ed-up that anyone, caught anywhere outside the good old USA - I GOT NOT SYMPATHY FOR YOU!
As a Christian it would feel unreal if everywhere I went I was questioned. Understand this is a security issue not a religious issue. I was detained in China, I wasn't worried, I had no reason to be. If something was found out about these men in a negative sense everyone would say where was the FBI and CIA. If they have nothing to hide they have nothing to worry about. I want to see the CIA and the FBI and the rest of the Security agents doing their job. Good job men, keep America safe.
What I have learned about people here is they will always find something to complain about, either way I know if they were just let back into the country and they were actually terrorist and did something People would be whining the opposite side of this matter, plain and simple let the people do their jobs they don't need a couch potato supervisor ..........
gordon, how is he being mistreated ? do you mean physically ? we cannot believe everythingm people tell us without confirming info first. would you take just anybody for their word ?
In case you have forgotten the other person Jamal Tarhuni, here is the article about him and his treatment by our bureaucrats.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/03/10304535-american-aid-worker-in-libya-us-bars-my-return
You haven't forgotten that our country was involved in the removal of Gaddafi. You haven't forgotten that most of NATO activities were arial attacks. There is always a certain amount of collateral damage, such as injured civilians.
Mr Tarhuni was an aid worker, according to that article.
BTW, who involved us in this effort to remove Gaddafi? Can you guarantee that none of our sorties resulted in injuries to innocent civilians?
My experience concerning bad situations in a foreign country goes like this, a couple in their 80's have a daughter who went overseas to work. A friend of the couple also has an adult daughter who wanted the address of the woman working as a teacher overseas. Overseas daughter asked parents not to give out her email address . Elderly man and daughter visited the parents of overseas daughter, found the school's email address on refrigerator. School received an email addressed in salutation to the daughter with her contact information on parents refrigerator. The two women had met just once, more than 20 years earlier but were aware of their parents friendship. Overseas daughter and parents lived elsewhere for many years. Parents had renewed acquaintance following relocation. The woman who wanted to work overseas sent many emails to the school's main office addressed to overseas daughter and stating she would send money to local bank (which accepted Western Union) in exchange for drug purchase. All hell broke loose at the overseas daughter's school. All hell really broke loose. Fortunately, overseas woman began to receive same solicitation for narcotic purchases from the woman who was reading her parents refrigerator back in the States. She turned the requests, which were insistent and menacing over to the USA federal authorities. Moral of the story is, when someone is making a stink about you while you are overseas they can be movtivated by jealousy, maliciousness, and sometimes their own unstable personalities which fabricate information. I think we are too quick to blame the FBI . Perhaps another American in Libya became jealous and sent false information to the US authorities to use an innocent man as a decoy. One never really knows until you have experienced a horror story such as this one.
ok so how many warnings does it take for theses morons have to get before they learn its not safe to visit these countries,,,,,,,,,i feel for the families that theife loved one was so @!$%#ing stupid and hope the kids are smarter
American Muslims are plotting terrorism and obviously this man is a suspect ''As-Saber Mosque, where many of them worship, in particular.'' They do most of their radicalizing at their mosques obviously.
A blatant violation of The Constitution. If you have a charge, CHARGE THEM!!! Put them in a court of law, with the right to confront thier accuser. Show the evidence, on the record.
If you can't charge them, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO FUXXX WITH THEM!!!!
If they're up to something and you can't get any evidence, then you are a sucky policeman. Don't trample other peoples rights just because you are incompetent. Or because you want to take shortcuts around the law to make it easier for you.
Remember, Innocent until proven guilty? The Constitution? Yeah, that little thing.
If they have something then they should charge them. Bring the evidence.
Show the JUSTICE in The Light Of Day, for all to see.
Otherwise, it could be.....YOU!
I have brought up this topic to as many as perhaps 100 various people (various meaning different political ideologies) and I have yet to find even one person who agrees this is proper. These are actual American citizens. I believe the handling by the United States government and those who wish to extend federal control are merely asking for backlash when they push things like this as far as they have. If they really want to maintain or obtain the degree of tyrannical control they illustrate, then for goodness sake man be less blatant about it or your going to end up with nothing. Americans are easily controlled and quite apathetic for the most part. However, we are extremes and are like a switch just waiting to be turned on - hot and cold and not a lot of warm. The power mongers obviously don't want this so try and be a little less blatant. This is so ridiculous as a majority probably agree.
The major at Ft Hood was a US citizen
Reportedly the No-Fly list includes no demographic identifiers. No birthdate, no DL, no Social Security number, no photo, no fingerprint. Just a string of letters on a page.
I know someone who designs video games for a living. His work occasionally has sent him across the pond to London on business since another of the company's headquarters is in London. His last name is Gray, his first--well, let's say that three guys in my company have the same first name.
He found out that someone with the name R** Gray was placed on the no-fly list. Now all of a sudden he can't fly to London. Just because he has the same name. A Google search on his first and last name (no middle initial) turns up five pages 100+ profile results on whitepages.com. There are people who have the same first and last name he does in OR, UT, AL, OH, NC, AL, ME, FL, GA, IL, MS, MO, NY. A search of vital records turns up 11,391 birth records for R** Gray.
And every single one of those will be prohibited from flying because they have that name.
I don't have a problem with a no-fly list; it will keep people off planes who shouldn't be. But for Goddess's sake, can you PLEASE put some kind of identifier after the name? DOB, race, social Security number, even better, a thumbprint!
Now I know Homeland Security is working on a portable DNA scanner that they're planning on deploying in airports so that every person who wants to get on a plane needs to open their mouths to have a DNA swab done that will be stuck in a portable analyzer to make sure the traveler is who they say they are. I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS. INVOLUNTARY DNA SAMPLING VIOLATES CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. But a simple fingerprint, which most people need to give in order to cash a check, is not as invasive and could provide a good identifier. Like the TSA'a PreCheck program, which issues 'frequent flier cards' by the airline, you could add a thumbprint on it and the print taken at the airport must match the flier's card so they can get on. Wouldn't that be easier than all this unecessary trampling of civil rights?
correct but did he know anyone in Portland. If not what is the connection? Could it be both being Muslim? Can you say religious persecution?
richard, you just can't trust just anybody, anyway these guys are just doing their job ! imagine if homeland security, immigration and us customs didn't ask questions, we would all probably be dead !
When you go to these third world countries. Just stay there and behave. Do not return.
Amanda-2017567 #2.2,
It would be interesting to know what percentage of the US population have been finger printed, primarily as a requirement for one or more jobs that they've had. I seriously doubt that after they've left one of those jobs, that records of their finger prints have not been purged from any government files.
That would make one wonder why identifying a person is such a problem. Since both of these men are naturalized citizens, aren't their finger prints on some file, so their finger prints should specifically identify them __— i.e. better than comparing names to determine who can fly, and who cannot.
This whole thing stinks.
Whether it's proper or not, is not the issue here. There are real people who want to do serious harm to America and her citizens.
Where do the home grown terrorists get their start in radicalism? Sadly, it's in a mosque or so the thinking goes. Any time religion is involved, the stakes get higher. As a country, we value our freedom of religion. Placing informants in mosques is a horrible place to start for information.
The game has changed considerably. The stakes so much higher. Instead of bemoaning the tactics of an arm of our government, perhaps we should re-think it and focus instead on those efforts to keep us safe.
It's easy to sit here and read a story about a few people being detained overseas and pass judgement on the people's whose job it is to keep us safe. I think it might be in order to remember the old adage, Don't believe everything you read.
mooonie #2.7,
So you propose that we give up our Constitutional rights? Those two are US citizens.
It could be you next Moonie. Are you saying its completely acceptable to prevent US citizens from returning home, if they decide to participate in a humanitarian effort in a war-torn country? Or does that only apply to Muslim citizens? Don't people realize this continued unconstitutional treatment of Muslim-Americans is only going to breed hatred, instead of getting us all to work together? This is outright persecution.
This is absolutely despicable behavior by the FBI. And since the FBI has no authority outside the US, just how/why are these agents flying overseas to interview these US citizens? If he's guilty, fly him back and charge him, otherwise let him return back to his family!
Can you say police state. Can you say Gestapo.
This is revolting. The part that disgusts me most (besides that fact that our Commander-in-Chief campaigns on "fairness" and "transparency") is that these oppressive procedures also maintain a level of secrecy that makes them difficult to scrutinize. It's ludicrous that someone doesn't know they're on the no-fly list until they try to board a plane.
Scrap the no-fly list. Defund the TSA. Remove the Department of Homeland Security. This is not the sort of security I want or need from my government.
sf accountant , so you would not want any protection from someone who wants to hurt you ?
water board them to be sure they are up to something
give me a freaking break, what a waste of time and money.
"Stalin" regime is coming back to US. GOD help us.
"'Stalin" regime is coming back to US"...huh? When was it ever here?
Send some troops and Obama to show them.
Paul,
12,000 of our troops are already there to protect the oil fields + the ports.
aren't you aware of it?
No, I'm not aware of 12K US military personnel on Libyan soil. This does not fictious scenario does not exists.
Please engage in real criticism supported by facts and evidence. Thanks.
Anthony.. According to Russian media (for whatever it's worth!!!) there are 12,000 US Troops now in Libya but they are part of a "UN force" so "technically" one could argue they are UN troops not US troops. No supporting word from US media outlets. The President's statement was that they wouldn't be there for the civil war, but the White House didn't say anything about not having them there afterward for security, finding weapons, etc.
I know that US media hasn't reported US troops, but they have reported UN troops are there to secure weapons of mass destruction and ground to air missles, as well as engage in other nation building type of activities. The media has also reported that FBI agents and other American personnell are in Libya.
Well the only report that I got about 12,000 troops is reportedly a quote by Cynthia McKinney a former congress women. Why she would know and not the media, or more importantly the geo political intelligence news organizations. Supposedly they are coming from a base in Malta but hte Maltese goverment denies these claims and in fact McKinney only states she got this information from foreign news sources and Libyan contacts. Stratfor, as far as I have read, has yet to report any move and none of their graphics illustrate any carriers or large amphibious support vessels in the area in the last few weeks, which would have been an indication of such a move. I doubt the veracity of the report.
That's right. And absolutely none of them ever call home, none of their families ask where they are or contact their Congressman, no smuggled out videos, etc., and the mainstream press is such Obama lapdogs none of this ever comes out.
I call B.S. Even Michael Savage, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and FOX News aren't talking anything like this. You can hide a twelve-man "A-team" of experienced operators. You can hide Seal Team Six. But the idea that a division-sized unit like this is on some sort of totally clandestine super-classified operation is too farfetched for all but the tin-hat-wearingest Ron Paul-types to believe. Even Russians are probably mostly laughing out loud at this one. "Russian media" need to go back to reporting how Putin "won" the last "election" and will "win" the next one as well. Now, as to the FBI, I'd be stunned if they didn't have agents there -- but a few, not hundreds or thousands.
I know there are 50,000 30 foot tall albinos with bulbous heads in Libya, sent by Newt Gingrich preparing for his takeover of the moon. I heard it from Russh Limpuff. Ain't that true you freakin' morons?
My apologies....the only moron is 'ibrahim-017693' who posted the idiotic, r-tarded comment.
I would tend to agree that hiding 12,000 US troops would be difficult and as far as Russian media, like I said for what it's worth (not that much).
A smaller number would definitely be possible. The US does have a history of inserting fair numbers (nowhere near 12K) of troops and denying it. Cambodia is a perfect example. The media also has a history of reporting what the military says without question, eg. the Haditha killings. So raising the issue isn't that retarded even if it is likely inaccurate and insulting others doesn't make one appear intelligent.
Send them some more aid money!!!
paul
Who? The UK? They sent him back at the direction of the US.
If they're going to be flying home on JANUARY 14th, they've either missed their flight or have about 11 months before getting a boarding pass. I hope that's a typo.
I've run into this same type of harassment when driving into the US from a short trip into Canada. No, I'm not Muslim, nor do I look like what might be stereotyped as a possible Islamic terrorist. I'm just an old guy (and US army veteran) who was bringing a car back home for restoration. But the way the Border kops treated me, you'd think I was about to repeat the 9/11 attacks.
Police state? Gestapo? I'd hate to think that the country I served to protect during the cold war was turning into the type of place we were prepared to defend against: the USSR. But many of the things I see reported could very easily be stories from the 50s and 60s in Russia or East Germany. This is very disturbing.
I'd like to think that our government can pull its head out, but that's probably an oxymoron.
thanks for pointing out the typo in the date. it is indeed Feb., not Jan. fixed now.
I was also stopped by Immigration and was hold in a seperate room for questioning but after questioning / answering all their questions was giving the okay to enter US even when I am legal immigrant still!
Immigration staff in L A X airport told me that they had a request that came in from Washingthon DC, I assume from the pentagon to hold me for questioning for security reason!
I told the officer who was nice to me while asking me questions that you guys always let the bad people walk away and the good people always end up paying for them the humiliation etc...
Don't expect proof reading on MSN. MSN like Microsoft just ships garbage and lets the end user test/proof it.
Also remember MSN is the blob that calls convicted rapists victims. I still think they should fire that FOOL!
And I thought this administration was of the ultra-liberal ilk. What gives...is this in the name of national security? "Paranoia runs deep, into your life it will creep. There's a man with a gun over there, tellin' me I got to beware." Words from "Buffalo Springfield," early 1960's. "Mr. bin Laden, mission accomplished." We are a nation determined to find invisible enemies at any cost. Do I believe there are those out there wishing and hoping for the demise of our democratic, capitalistic life style? Yes. Is this the right tactic? No. Let's regroup and come up with something more sustainable and practical. We need security but we do not need the paranoia that comes along with over zealous, government controlled, propagandists.
Here Here, I whole heartedly agree. Paranoia is rampant and governments handling of their paranoia needs to concern ALL of us. It can and would happen to any one. I am so ashamed to be an American in this day and age when we cannot even trust our government to do the right thing.
jyoung1955 #10.1,
Why are you ashamed for our government's modus operandi? Are you in a position of our government where you have the power implement changes for the better? Our founding fathers must be spinning in their graves.
No way! I cannot believe a Govt agency would do things like this. (sarcasm intended)
Remember how great other Govt agencies handled Ruby Ridge? Waco?
Does anyone see a problem with the way these things are handled? You would think they would learn from these mistakes one day... Guess there is no hope for common sense.
This is the Salem Witch hunts all over again. Welcome back to the SS and Gestapo. I am ashamed to be an American when this country employs tactics that are blatantly underhanded and misguided. What is wrong with you people in government. Are their boogey men waiting behind every door in your paranoid minds. Disgusting, absolutely disgusting!
jyoung1955 #12,
"Are there boogey men waiting behind every door ..."
No, but the government is trying to make most of us believe it, and to surrender all of our rights, so they will have total dictatorial power over US citizens.
And because of those boogeymen waiting behind the door...
Homeland Security using Nogales, AZ to test a surveillance system that will continuously monitor 4 square miles or provide scanning monitoring for up to ten square miles. The technology also includes retina scanners that are reportedly accurate up to 50 feet away with the person being scanned running. Its called 'Wide Area Surveillance System'. Plans are also underway to fit the system to those Predator drones and test-fly that over Nogales, AZ.
They are planning to roll out the WASS nationwide in areas that are usually considered hot spots; they would be particularly useful along the border, to monitor communes and cult encampments in hard-to reach places like mountains, search canyons and ravines and snowy mountainsides for victims of avalanches and other disasters. The new scanning system called Xaver, developed by the geniuses at MIT, can see through some types of building materials, giving the government a clear picture of who is inside a house, how many, and what these people are doing inside their houses. They'll be able to see who's cooking meth or growing pot in the basement, for example, who is brewing homemade moonshine in the woods behind the house, see who is breaking into someone's house, see a child molester molesting a child, heck, they'll be able to see you sitting on the toilet!
Another bit of technology they are currently testing in an 'undisclosed location' in the Northeast is what they called a Future Attribute Screening Technology, FAST, which will scan a person as far as 50 feet away for changes in body temperature, respiration, heart rate, eye movement and other factors to determine if they are acting in a suspicious manner. Agents watching the scanners can then direct ground agents to arrest the person befoe they can commit an illegal act. Early tests utilizing DHS employees who were told to act a certain way indicated hat the machine was 70% accurate in detecting persons who were told to act suspiciously.
DHS is going to utilize FAST in airports to figure out who is nervous getting on a plane--the FAST system utilizes retina scanning, infrared, pulse and respiration monitor, so someone out of breath with pulse pounding and eyes shifting around rapidly is certainly about to commit a terrorist act. If you have a machine that tells you that someone will commit a crime, then you can arrest them and put them in jail before they commit that crime, which could serve to wipe out most obvious types of crime right away. FAST can be used on buses to predict which passengers will cause a disruption and transportation officers can meet the bus at the next stop, taking the potentially disruptive passenger away to jail; can be used to tell which businessman walking into a diplomatic session will be carrying a briefcase bomb. There will be no more chances for assassination plots like 'Operation Valkyrie' and of course no more 9-11, unless the terrorists are specifically trained to act normal and can control their breathing enough to appear calm and beat the scanner. After all, the scanner has 70% accuracy!
The retina scanning can be incorporated to scan a person's eyes as they sit at a red light, predicting who is going to run that red light before they do it, printing that person a ticket for running that red light before they even do it. Traffic cameras will be able to see a person's shifting eyes, predicting that they will cut off another vehicle before they do it; and they can record the pulse of the other driver, and if the pulse speeds up after the person is cut off, the police can arrest the other driver for a potential road rage incident before the driver can actually commit said incident.
Also currently being tested are portable DNA scanners. Meant to be utilized at airports, it'll require that the person being tested open their mouth for an inside-the-cheek swab which will then be placed in a portable DNA analyzer and return results. Most of the initial results will be enrollment results but if the DNA submitted happens to be a match or partial match for someone on DHS's database who is, for instance, currently detained at Guantanamo Bay or currently detained as an illegal immigrant, that person can be detained as well. This is primarily for use on children coming through with parents/guardians, DNA analyzers will make sure the child is related to the guardian/parent and is not being smuggled or trafficked into the US.
Portable DNA scanners are going to be used mostly at airports; in addition to the regular TSA screening, you'll be required to give DNA before getting on the plane, and so will your wife and child. This will actually be a good thing; if the plane crashes while you're on it, they'll be able to match the DNA of your remains to the preflight DNA screening with no guessing required.
If the knowledge of this technology doesn;t raise your eyebrows, then this bit of knowledge will:
Then comes the NDAA 2012, signed into law on Dec 31, 2011 which allows the government to indefinitely detain anyone, American citizen or not, on American soil or off, without charge or trial if they are suspected of terrorism--mind, that means they don't actually have to be convicted of terrorism, they just have to be suspected. Because of the President's insistence on refusing to sign because the original wording included indefinite incarceration of American citizens,the wording of the law was changed to say the US military is REQUIRED to detain you only if you are not a citizen; it is DISCRETIONARY if you are an American citizen.
Now here comes HR3166, also called the Enemy Expatriation Act. This allows the government to strip you of your citizenship if they even suspect you of terroristic activities. And if you think about it, once the government takes away your citizenship then the NDAA's requirement to detain' kicks in. which means the wording change to 'discretionary detention of American citizens means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
And the final piece of the puzzle; Homeland Security's listof what they consider terrorism nowadays. They released it, realized they didn't really want this to become public, and yanked it back--byut iof course, once something is on the net, it stays on the net--until Homeland Security shuts down the website. But not before people saw it and started to spread the word:
Alternative media
Anarchist extremism
Animal rights extremism
Anti-abortion extremism
Anti-immigration extremism
Anti-technology extremism
Aryan prison gangs
Black bloc
Black nationalism
Black power
Black separatism
Christian Identity movement
Cuban independence extremism
Decentralized terror movement
Denial-of-service attacks
Direct action (including lawful acts of civil disobedience)
Environmental extremism
Ethnic extremism
Extremist groups
Green anarchism
Hacktivism (technology-enabled social/political activism)
Hate groups
Jewish extremism
Leaderless resistance
Left-wing extremism
Lone terrorists
Mexican separatists
Militia Movements (including conspiracy theorists)
Neo-Nazis
Patriot Movement
Phineas Priesthood
Primary targeting(directly supporting/funding terrorists)
Puerto Rican independence extremists
Radical Norse mysticism practitioners
Racialists
Right-wing extremists
Single-issue/multiple issue extremist groups
Skinheads whose ‘dress may include shaved head/short hair, jeans, thin suspenders, combat boots or Doc Martens and a bomber jacket’
Sovereign citizen movement
Tax resistance movement
Violent anti-war extremism
Violent religious sects (includes those who stockpile food and weapons)
White Nationalists
White Power advocates
White Supremacists
Norse Mysticism, really? As a practicing pagan I do know a couple of Odinists. And of course they are blowing up one public building a day 'in the name of the AllFather Odin' after their Dungeons & Dragons match!
jyoung1950, why are you complaining, how does this affect you personally ?
amanda, some of the things that you are writting about, i've never heard of " mexican seperatist , i think you are making up alot of these things !
you left
lesbian separatist
homosexual power
and
The Hillary Clinton wants to eat your Baby Society
off your list.
After 9/11 we just can't be too careful. Remember they caught some Muslims from Portland plotting a possible terror attack. So it makes perfect sense to suspect these people (Muslims from Portland) if they're traveling back and forth to Arab countries, especially Libya which was a hotbed for terrorist training. And a quick internet search reveals there have been other terrorsts by the name of Jamal and Mustafa, so the FBI has good reason to assume these guys might be up to no good.
you're kidding, right?
These men are American citizens! They should not be detained from returning home to the US. If by some chance they are suspected of some wrongdoing the FBI can question them when they get to the airport in the United States. And IF they want to talk to the FBI they can do so, but they are not under any obligation to do so and especially not in another country while being improperly detained! If they don't want to talk they don't have to. If the feds have evidence of wrongdoing they can arrest them and charge them appropriately. Everything else in between is just intimidation and mistreatment and denial of American citizens' rights.
Of course one could wonder why he didn't just go meet with the FBI for the "interview" in Tripoli if he had nothing to hide and wanted to get back home. But on the other hand, why should anyone be forced to meet in a foreign country with feds without an attorney and without assurances you'll be allowed to safely return home? I don't know what I would do in that situation but I know it would be scary.
remy1.....meet with FBI or CIA and clear your name if you are truly innocent!!!I was put in a special line or room for 3 years by TSA. I answered their questions and told them....I support them. I am no longer getting the special search or questions
You sir, are a complete idiot. My last name is Young, do you not realize that your rationalization for the treatment of these men is ridiculous. I am sure that there are many people with the last name of Young that have committed heinous crimes against others and are now locked up for it. PLEASE!!!!
jyoung - thanks for taking the bait! Yes, totally ludicrous. Sorry. :-) What I wrote was entirely tongue in cheek sarcasm, to make a point.
Actually the threat of terrorism by American Muslims is actually falling. The most recent report was just issued last week jointly by the University of North Carolina, Duke and RTI, entitled Muslim-American Terrorism in the Decade Since 9/11, and it's available on-line at: Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security - http:// sanford. duke.edu/ centers/tcths/
(remove spaces in the link)
I should've read this post before responding to your earlier one! Sorry about that! :)
Why this man has to go back so much to and from Libya makes me think that maybe he should just stay there. Who has that kind of money to fly back and forth like that anyway? I am suspicious of that fact alone! Does he have a second family there? That is between him and his wife but he knows that this is a country in turmoil and now is probably not the best time to run back and forth. Just stay there and finish your business then come home and stay!
The article stated that the man's father is there as well as other family members. He legally immigrated to this country 30 years ago, and just recently started traveling there when our government loosened travel restrictions to Libya.
You and Jerry should read the article completely and then think before you post.
OMG, chatty - that kind of thinking is just scary. BUT, we on this board have no way of knowing if he's involved in something legal or illegal. That's why we have the FBI, and if they have reason to suspect something they can ask to question him anytime. And he may or may not decide to cooperate in that questioning. And they may or may not choose to bring charges against him someday. Who knows? But any and all of that could happen on US soil, where his rights as a citizen are respected and he has legal counsel and due process and can't be charged without sufficient grounds and evidence. Refusing to allow him to travel back to his HOME in Portland is just wrong and inexcusable.
I say if he's from Portland he must be guilty!
Agreed, I'll support the FBI and CIA anytime
We live in a world of mistrust, why Terriost. To me I too would be suspicious of someone going back and forth. We need to be on guard. If these men are innocent then that will come out. No matter what our government does there will be those who say it is not right, then the other side of coin these same people will say if something happen why didn't our government see these people schedule, going back and forth. I rather be safe than sorry. Anyone living in this country of mid eastern heritage must know that there country would do the same if the situation were vise versa. I do not condone it but we need to be on guard. Unfortunately innocent people will always get hurt.
It is noit illegal to travel to foreign countries with the proper travel documents, nor is it illegal to be an American citizen born in another country. If the FBI or any other law enforcement agency has an issue with these men or any other "American Citizen" then they should arrest them with probable cause and supporting warrants, or let them travel as any other citizen regardless of their skin color or religious preference.
If there is evidence of a crime or probable cause then by all rights detain and prosecute them! But if there is not, then do not diminish there rights as citizens simply because they don't look the way you do or pray the way you do!
You're probably the same person who complains about the "nanny" state. Life is not safe - get over it. Defund TSA and Home Land Security. welcome to the United Police State of America. How would you feel, Catherine, if it was you who was detained and put on the no-fly list?
nj-az kim, why do you care about someone you don't even know, if he is being detained it's because they probably have good reason for doing what they are doing.
Our FBI at work - what a joke. Reminds me of J. Edgar and all of his shenannigans. Can't they find some medical pot smokers to bust? Or maybe supply some more sniper rifles to the Mexican drug cartels.
Holders [Justice Department] boys supplied the guns NOT the FBI
My country (the U.S.) is getting scarier and scarier. There's NO excuse for treating our citizens this way. Those in power seem to be protecting us from the boogie man. Things like this happened in Nazi Germany. Let's not allow it to happen any more here. We are on a very slippery slope. I'd rather be free and not safe then safe and not free.
implacable patriot, anything or anyone who is a threat to this country has to be looked into, how do you know that he doesn't have some connection to extremists or terrorist group, we don't know him, better safe than sorry.
gh-62739, so do you think that we should trust every tom , dick and harry just because their Americans ? i should say not !
GH You think US is scary, try Libya,Egypt,Iran or Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!! The USA is safe.
I can't wait to read the ignorant and racist statements that usually follow a story like this. I used to get upset, but nowadays I just laugh... you can't help retards.. it's not their fault, they are just inherently stupid and narrow minded.
I hope these men arrive home safely. Goodluck and Godspeed.
they don't believe in God you Nimrod...they believe in Allah.
Allah is Arabic for God, hello.
Thank you George, the ignorance is astonishing. Allah is Arabic for God and any one with an education would know that.
otter54 - you tool... God and Allah are synonymous. LOL thanks for the laugh, keep'em coming... ignorance never runs out in this country.
Yes, so while we're at it, we can show some concern for Libyan Christians, too. Paranoia over people who look different than 'us', talk different than 'us' and act different than 'us' is about to get out of hand again, apparently. Not just here, but in more and more of the world.
chaelsonnon, you are such an idiot, allah is their god, you know the one that terrorist kill in the name of ? good laugh lol ! our God does not condone murder , allah does, obviously !
Actually Allah means Father, it is from the Aramaic Abba (not the singing group).
Umm, no Allah does not mean father, and this comes from an Arabic-speaker. Allah means God. Even Arab Christians call their god Allah.
keep going idiots!
Christian Arabs call God Allah.. my God (Allah) you guys are so dumb and misinformed. Pick up a book or travel for God's (Allah's) sake, educate instead of embarrassing yourselves. Sooner or later 'American' is going to be synonymous with the word 'Dumb'. I guess it already is.... smh
I repeat God = Allah. Allah is Arabic for God. Same exact meaning. Is that too complicated of a concept to understand?
@Mitzy - I repeat for a 3rd time... Allah translated in arabic means God. stop pulling BS out of whatever hole or crevice you pulled it out off.
The activities of the US police state are dovetailing with a growing Christian supremacy movement.
The Libya connection is probably only theatre.
It is important also to remember that there are no meaningful civil or human rights in the UK. Although the US has forsaken its tradition and legal framework for rights, the UK has never had them to begin with.
Actually, it's where the whole concept of "human rights' originally came from, beginning with the Magna Carta in 1215, on through the Bill of Rights 1689 and then the Scottish Enlightenment. The Founding Fathers claimed no "new" rights in the Declaration, only an assertion of the traditional rights of all Englishmen under the common law, which they were now being denied. Where do you think the "tradtion and legal framework for rights" really came from. The Founders would not be pleased. They were fully accepting of the idea of naturalized citizens, which is why there is a provision for this in the original 1787 constitution.
Too much crying and whining on this site about statistically insignificant travel problems. I regularly travel to Spain, Costa Rica and Thailand. I was in Cambodia a few months ago. Going to Vietnam and Laos this coming September.
As long as passports are up to date and visas acquired for those nations that require such documents, then travel for a US citizen is easy and quite wonderful.
The only time that I've been disuaded from a foreign travel by the US government was a potential travel to Cuba a few years ago. In that case, I spoke with a very nice person in the US Treasury Department and via that conversation it was conveyed to me that I did not meet the qualifications to travel to Cuba. So be it.
There is no police state in the US. In my entire adult years, there has never existed such a state under Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II or current presidency of Barack Obama.
I'm truly frightened of all the 'scared' Americans that believe our nation is descending down a path of the pre-WWII 1930s era NSDAP Germany. Just absurd.
Seriously people - pull yourselves together. Get your passports in order and go out and see the world and enjoy yourselves and stop scribbling garbage on blog sites just to see your ignorant opinions on the computer screen.
If you're the statistic, it is not insignificant. You either did not read the article or choose to ignore the facts presented, but it's quite clear that travel for these US citizens is not easy and not remotely wonderful.
Then take up their cause and banner. For everyone else that travels regularly, it is quite nice to have a US passport and travel is relatively easy. There were no facts presented in this article to disuade me from believing that too many people are over-reacting to statistical anomalies and creating imaginary scenarios in the confines of their minds about a supposedly police state.
Sure, US Customs for example can be pain in the backside - but they have a hard job to do and a lot depends upon their efforts. Same for all of our other uniformed and non-uniformed personnel that strive to keep the nation safe. I'm grateful (as a citizen and regular foreign traveler) that we have such a dedicated cadre of personnel.
I'm sorry for the Libyan-American citizens that are caught up in bureacracy. I really am sorry. And if it were me, sure, I'd be irritated and disturbed as well. But one must take it for what it is. Statistical anomalies that only affect a tiny micro-percentage of the US foreign traveling public on an annual basis.
The absurd talk of police state is just that. I have all of the freedoms to pursue life, liberty and happiness in this republic that I've had since my birth. Those things never change, regardless of president or political party which happens to control the houses of congress.
It seems Anthony only cares that things work for him, and the government can do what it likes to everyone else. I wonder if he can even name his US and STATE (local) reps off the top of his head. Hey, we're glad things work for you, but we have a constitution to follow, and breaking that social contract is a step in the wrong direction. Maybe you are old enough to remember McCarthyism, or WWII stuff as a child, so your experience adds some perspective. That's nice, but what the government is doing in this case is bullying innocent people. I don't think we should live in a society where the government can make secret lists to keep people off planes, or secretly track our movements, or stop people without probable cause. I'm sorry you disagree.
Anthony said:
As long as passports are up to date and visas acquired for those nations that require such documents, then travel for a US citizen is easy and quite wonderful.
I know someone who designs video games for a living. His work occasionally has sent him across the pond to London on business since another of the company's headquarters is in London. His last name is Gray, his first--well, let's say that three guys in my company have the same first name.
He found out that someone with the name R** Gray was placed on the no-fly list. Now all of a sudden he can't fly to London. Just because he has the same name. A Google search on his first and last name (no middle initial) turns up five pages 100+ profile results on whitepages.com. There are people who have the same first and last name he does in OR, UT, AL, OH, NC, AL, ME, FL, GA, IL, MS, MO, NY. A search of vital records turns up 11,391 birth records for R** Gray.
And every single one of those will be prohibited from flying because they have that name.
Anthony said:
The absurd talk of police state is just that. I have all of the freedoms to pursue life, liberty and happiness in this republic that I've had since my birth. Those things never change, regardless of president or political party which happens to control the houses of congress.
Ben Franklin said 'Those who give up a little liberty for a little security shall deserve neither and lose both'.
First there's the leaked list of activities that Homeland Security deems 'terroristic'--and among them are practitioners of Norse mysticism--Odinists. Seriously, when was the last time someone blew up a building 'in the name of the Norse god Odin?' And in this list is 'lawful acts of civil disobedience--like the Occupy protesters.
Then comes the NDAA 2012, which allows the government to indefinitely detain anyone, American citizen or not, on American soil or off, without charge or trial if they are suspected of terrorism--mind, that means they don't actually have to be convicted of terrorism, they just have to be suspected. Because of the uproar about indefinite incarceration of American citizens,the wording of the law was changed to say the US military is REQUIRED to detain you only if you are not a citizen; it is DISCRETIONARY if you are an American citizen.
Now here comes HR3166, also called the Enemy Expatriation Act. This allows the government to strip you of your citizenship if they even suspect you of terroristic activities. And if you think about it, once the government takes away your citizenship then the NDAA's requirement to detain' kicks in.
You have no idea what its like to live in a place with NO rights. And I can tell you firsthand what it's like because I've been there. I spent three years in an ICE deportation camp as an 'illegal' when USCIS lost an adoption paper my father filed 18 years before and never told me about before he and Mom both passed away. Because of that I couldn't produce a copy of that paper.
The deportation camp I was in was called 'Ritmo' by Human Rights watch and Amnesty International because they said it looked and felt exactly like Guantanamo Bay (Gitmo). Sleep deprivation, food deprivation, death threats, physical and sexual abuse.
The lights were never turned off so it was hard to get any sleep. Food on several occasions was served crawling with maggots and we were told there wasn't money in the budget to prepare another meal. Guards joked about taking you out in the yard and shooting you in the head. The underwear I was assigned on several occasion still had blood from another woman's period still crusted in it because it wasn't washed before being given me.
We were packed into giant tents separated into sections called 'pods'. Each pod had 50-60 people. There were five toilets, no partitions between the toilets and no partitions between the toilest and the living areas. We were issued one jumpsuit a week and one pair of underwear after the weekly shower. The only women who got bras were the ones who were lactating or who had very heavy breasts, so if you had to go to the bathroom you basically had to strip naked. And you better beileve the gards watched. And openly got their rocks off. They strip-searched and body-cavity searched us on a regular basis, and we didn't have the right to ask that a female guard perform the search--we got whoever happened to be there. And you can bet on cavity search days the only guards who hapened to be near the 'female 18-25' pod was male. Some of us were left bleeding after one of these searches.
The things that were done to me weren't 'crimes' because I was 'illegal'. They weren't considered crimes when they were being done to the Jews in Germany either. I never ever stopped calling myself American, I never considered myself not American. So those freedoms you feel so secure in do change, and they change the minute someone can say 'you're illegal'.
It is starting to look like someone in the Portland FBI office has a vendetta of some sort going on. For a city it's size, there appear to be a disproportionate number of people being either prosecuted or persecuted.
In the wake of 9-11 when coconspirators were being rounded up Mr Elogbi visited one of the terrorists in prison and apparently accused the terrorist of blasphemy for using Allah's name to condone the killing of innocents. The FBI apparently construed the visit to mean that Mr Elogbi has ties to the terrorist organization and
Portland has their hands full. That city has turned into a 3 day old kettle of fish.
amanda, if mr.elogbi had no connections to terrorist, then why would he go and visit a terrorist in prison? think about it !
You must remember that these FBI agents must find a way to justify their paychecks. Otherwise, they might get fired as being unnecessary. So they invent work by bullying a guy they know has committed no crimes. Same with the EPA and here I have personal experience. If they do not have enough work to go around they invent work. Got it? Good. If we fired half the pople in probabaly every one of these federal agencies we would save a lot of money and all real work would still get done.
so a number of people were arrested for terrorist plots were from the same mosque as Elogbi,and people are pissed the FBI has questions??
I recall a time in American history when we were trying to decide if it was "better to be red or dead." There is liberty, and there is (the promise of) safety. I'm glad you weren't there to screw it up, because we can all damn well see what you would have picked.
10 years ago very few here would have had a problem with this kind of policing - Since 9/11 there have been no other terror attacks in North America.
Let the professionals do their jobs.
Who travels to a war torn Islamic - or any - country and would not expect to attract this type of attention to themselves? Regardless of their ethnicity or religion...
The world is painted grey in times of upheaval and tyranny...
We apparently have not progress very far from the 1940's when we rounded up all Japanese American citizens after the Pearl Harbor attack and put them in concentration camps on the basis they "might" be more loyal to Japan than to America.
The government conveniently forgot they were American citizens with the same rights to presumption of innocence.
we will never know how many people were saved from death or serious injury because they were locked up
Wow, for a bunch of presumed traitors a lot of the men sure fought well in WWII. Even J. Edgar couldn't countenance the level of racism this entailed.
eric- maryland, exactly, a lot of the terrorist were American citizens ! and some of those converted to islam before they became terrorist.