They were "allowed" to get so indebted because, while the EU has rules concerning fiscal discipline in national budgets, it doesn't enforce them.

In all fairness, lots of countries violated those same rules that aren't in trouble, including Germany. But Germany has a strong, competetive economy with lots of competition and a fairly efficient public sector. Greece does not.

It was assumed for a long time that in the Euro a country was protected from default and excessive debt. Naturally, it was the bankers that one day took a good long look at that idea and asked themselves "wait... is that actually true?"

Because they are a nation-state which is assumed to be run by adults with some sense of reality. Oops! That looks to be an untenable assumption relative to more than just Greece...

The peasants arent believing the counterfactual. They're going to have to default just to get everybody on the same page. And forget about milking the rich. They can pick up and leave.

it all started in 1999, when Congress and the President were convinced by the big banks and brokerage firms that (glass -stegal act was no longer needed); Greenspain and his pied pipers were the guru's of self regulation; the controls were dismantled, ;derivative, credit default, swaps, bundled mortgages, were used to inflate the worlds money supply by 10 fold; the worlds banks and brokerage houses got on board(remember Lehman), then the bottom fell out and the real rate of return was in the negative column, with real core inflation at 3-4%, compounded for 10-12 years, which collapsed the banks portfolio's, so that the taxpayers had to bail the banks out of their debts, by shifting the debts to future tax receipts, which are impossible to amount to enough to cover this giant gambling spree, Greece is but one of the many nations that are facing a crisis, we are next around the corner, God help us, no one else can !

It seems pretty clear that the Greek people will not accept these draconian austerity measures demanded by the EU. The end result is that Greece will probably go down in flames anyway.

Coming soon to a country near you.

The United States is in line to get our country foreclosed upon, just like what’s happening to the European countries. The entire banking system is corrupt and rigged and the rating agencies are insignificant.

I think most people have figured out that Wall Street is one of the most corrupt and ethically deprived institutions on our planet. I think most people also know the media is bought and sold just like most politicians. We also know that Wall Street is one of many tools of the elite but not the main tool. What is very clear is that our financial system has an architect and carefully designed plan that is playing itself out in Europe.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is very brazen in its fear mongering that we have lost a decade economically. Especially since the IMF has been one of the biggest contributors to perpetuating the instability of the European crisis. The dominoes are beginning to fall in what is an orchestrated attempt by the banksters to consolidate Europe and eventually the rest of the world’s economies under one umbrella that is to be controlled by those that have always controlled currency and money. The most egregious aspect of this contrived extortion is that they are blaming the people who are the backbone of any economy instead of their greedy corrupt political and business leaders.

George Papandreou was pressured to quit because he lapsed into a morally and ethical responsible position by trying to give the people of Greece a say in their economic future through a referendum. This vote would have given the Greek people the choice to stay in the Euro zone and allow their country to be foreclosed upon by the banksters or leave the Euro regain their sovereignty and coin their own currency once again. The IMF bullied the smallest country as a litmus test for what is going to be a much more challenging foreclosure process when it comes to the larger economies. Italy is now in the cross hairs. This dilemma you are watching unfold goes to the core of the rotten apple that is the world’s financial system.

Folks, you are witnessing the death throes of a desperate corrupt financial system where the stock markets and the fractional reserve banking system are at its core. The volatility in the stock markets are a microcosm of the greed, theft and corruption that has perpetrated all aspects of our and other countries economic systems. In the United States, It doesn’t matter who’s in office. Our political system has turned into a two headed one party system with both parties serving their masters, Wall Street and the banksters/Federal Reserve. The stock market is just another ponzi scheme whose intent is to fleece the gullible at the bottom of the pyramid. The stock market is a rogue element of a financial system that is meant to funnel the wealth to the elite/banksters who soicopathically control our financial lives. It is reaching a point where there is nothing more to take from the 99% of the world. The banksters would separate you from your rainy day fund if they could gain access to your shoe box or secret compartment in your purse or wallet. The stock market isn’t the main problem; it’s the fractional reserve banking system that has set the foundation for outright theft. We are experiencing the biggest bank and investment robbery in history and the banks and financial institutions are doing the robbing. When you blame one political party or another they have you right where they want you, in fear, divided and distracted to the theft that is going on right in front of your eyes each and every second of the day.

When you have people on Wall Street day trading and speculating making half a million dollars a year in their twenties betting on people being foreclosed on, you need to ask yourself what is the true purpose of our banking system? At the moment it is largely a theft on the American public. MF Global CEO, ex Goldman Sachs CEO Jim Corzine knows this and knows that nobody with his connections have served any time for stealing the investor’s money (1.2 billion at last count). The financial system’s main mission should be to allocate capital to areas of greatest growth in the real world economy. Yet they allow all kinds of broker speculation and financial gimmicks such as the derivative markets which are based on non-realistic side bets which are now in the quadrillions. The derivatives market was illegal for most of the 20^th century.

The European banking crisis is a prime example of what is going to happen to all economies associated with stock market fraud and the Federal Reserve banking system. The financial strife in Greece is the model that will befall most countries. Greece is but a symptom of a cancer that has attached itself to the world’s economies. The Federal Reserve (which is neither federal nor a reserve) has been creating money (monopoly money) out of thin air and charging interest on it insuring a debtor economy for anyone who chooses or is forced to get involved with the Federal Reserve and their fractional reserve banking system. That is why this whole European or any countries current debt crisis will never be resolved and will be preyed upon by the stock market vultures. The Federal Reserve System is designed to cause economies to fail.

If someone loans you two dollars to run your economy and expects three back for the loan and interest how are you going to pay the third back? You can’t unless you borrow more dollars which puts you in perpetual debt and in a constant borrowing cycle to pay off the debt. This is designed not accidental.

Here’s the kicker, once the Federal Reserve/banksters have you struggling to pay off your interest, they send in their loan sharks the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The IMF will loan you money to cover your ever burdening interest payments but they attach a provision that if you default, you will have to give them your assets in what they call privatization (foreclosure).

Since the interest is exponential, you will default and the banksters will come in and try to foreclose on your country, like Greece. They are being told to sell off their own country to pay back the people who caused the mess to begin with. This allows the elite to steal your intrinsic valuable assets because they gave you paper (loans/debt) and the interest on the debt that is systematically impossible to pay back. This also allows the parasitic stock speculators to profit from this designed theft. They not only know the outcome of an economy, they can gamble on the economic bubbles at the investor’s expense. This cancer goes all the way down the food chain.

In the United States case, it doesn’t have to be that way. In our constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, it stipulates that we can “coin money” as a nation and avoid the Federal Reserve’s interest (fee charged on loans) black hole.

So don’t be fooled that the Europeans have come to grips with their financial debt, it’s impossible, it’s a designed virus that has spread around the globe. The Europeans are now replacing their leaders with technocrats/ex Goldman Sachs banksters. These people haven’t been elected by anybody. The stock market vultures will continue to contrive “financial instruments” (credit default swaps/credit derivatives) to defraud the people of the world.

Banks, Central banks, World Bank, BIS, IMF = Federal Reserve = Debtor economies, Debtor Nations (economic slaves) and carrion for the stock market derivative heist.

There is a lot of ignorance about how economies work and how human behavior works. Everyone settles on some version that is only part of the picture but assumes any additional factors must be erroneous or extraneous.

People live in small worlds. They see the larger world, but it doesn't really factor into their expectations. When larger forces interfere, it is always tragic and will fuel righteousness and indignation. A large enough population being affected so, will feel compelled to revolt, regardless of the net situation becoming much worse.

Lets all hope it doesn't lead to mass destruction and death.

Europe should cut these buggers off, let the people who made poor decisions to loan the Greek government money eat their losses finally instead of more and more people's money forced by government continually shoveled down their bottomless pit.

The Greeks clearly will not act responsibly they are so addicted to leftist fiscal ideology, so cut them off, let them figure out their own mess. They've already run out of their own other people's money, let them find out what happens when you really run out of all other's people money and still refuse to make the necessary changes to get back on your own feet. Constantly pumping them up with other people's money is just putting them further and further into debt they already will never be able to repay, and forcing more and more people by government fiat to loan to them who would otherwise probably want to be safe from that nightmare.

LOL....and on another thread folks are saying how ROSY the DOW has been.

Well, standby for a wild ride when Greece defaults and takes down the rest of the EuROPIIgs.

Note: the IMF has been silent and has yet to release current information on their "request" ("DEMAND") for member nations to INCREASE their "donations" to the IMF for more EuRO bailouts.

For a minute there, I thought this article might be about California.

I have just come back from Greece... The people want out of the EU. They see the way its is now there will never be a end...They want to start over. They will ride out the storm if they see a light at the end of the tunnel....Bring Back The Drachma....That what they want...

My inlaws are Greek and have been keeping a close eye on the local news. The issue is not the high wages or the entitlement programs. It is the widespread unchecked dishonesty and corruption in Greece. Doctors who make hundreds of thousands a year only report $10,000 a year in income, and no one audits them. Politicians have stolen millions from the government as well.

Imagine the United States if it doubled its entitlement programs and then disolved the IRS. That would be Greece.

Funny so many blame the Greeks themselves.

When it happens to us, we will blame the politicians, just as they are doing.

Spending is so out of control in this country, I hope we will learn before we reach the point of no return.

Based on spending vs. GDP, we are quickly approaching that point.

We're bankrupt here in the US and I'm angry.

"Imagine the United States if it doubled its entitlement programs and then disolved the IRS. That would be Greece"

Imagine half the US didn't pay any taxes after deductions and then increased its entitlement programs and then then they planned on raising my taxes after being self employed and already working 65 hours a week. Imagine if the situation was worsened by corruption in the financial sector and they used my taxes again to bail them out. Imagine a large private company like GM going bankrupt, the govenrment taking a stake again with my tax money, and throwing out all the previous stockholders and debt to keep pensions alive, then declaring on paper within a year that it is profitable and a success. Imagine a bunch of crazies with so much time on their hands they can squat in tents on public property and break into public buildings and cause vandalism again on my dime.

Oh..wait a second...that is what is going on in the US right now.

Sorry, my mistake.

When they finally default, leave the Euro zone and bring back the Drachma, they're in for a world of pain, no one is going to be willing to give them loans to do anything with, they will literally be on their own. At that point they'll actually have to produce something rather than just shoveling money out to people through government programs and organized labor government employment. That will be for the best once they figure out how to adjust, but the withdrawal they'll experience from their debt addiction is going to be immense, and a lot of their people will suffer as a result.

I feel for the average Greek citizen, but leaving the Euro and going through a disorderly default will be much, much worse for the average person. Basically, they have lived far beyond their means for too long, and now it's time to pay the piper.

Hey, Greece ----- Germany has a "fat wallet" as you call it, because it has been fiscally prudent. The financial plight you are in stems from being anything but responsible in your lack of foresight programs and, I might add, your underground economy. It is time to pay for your own mistakes. If you cannot bear to face the music of the tune that the European Union is playing and Germany is conducting, then leave the European Zone and fend for yourself. The bill is due for your spendthrift ways. Actually, the bill is long overdue. Either become responsible or go out on your own. The rest of Europe shall just have to get along without you.

The United States is in line
to get our country foreclosed upon, just like what’s happening to Greece and
the other European countries. The entire banking system is corrupt and rigged
and the rating agencies are insignificant.

I think most people have figured
out that Wall Street is one of the most corrupt and ethically deprived
institutions on our planet. I think most people also know the media is bought
and sold just like most politicians. We also know that Wall Street is one of
many tools of the elite but not the main tool. What is very clear is that our
financial system has an architect and carefully designed plan that is playing
itself out in Europe.

The International Monetary
Fund (IMF) is very brazen in its fear mongering that we have lost a decade
economically. Especially since the IMF has been one of the biggest contributors
to perpetuating the instability of the European crisis. The dominoes are
beginning to fall in what is an orchestrated attempt by the banksters to
consolidate Europe and eventually the rest of the world’s economies under one
umbrella that is to be controlled by those that have always controlled currency
and money. The most egregious aspect of this contrived extortion is that they
are blaming the people who are the backbone of any economy instead of their
greedy corrupt political and business leaders.

George Papandreou was
pressured to quit because he lapsed into a morally and ethical responsible
position by trying to give the people of Greece a say in their economic future
through a referendum. This vote would have given the Greek people the choice to
stay in the Euro zone and allow their country to be foreclosed upon by the
banksters or leave the Euro regain their sovereignty and coin their own
currency once again. The IMF bullied the smallest country as a litmus test for
what is going to be a much more challenging foreclosure process when it comes
to the larger economies. Italy and Spain are now in the cross hairs. This
dilemma you are watching unfold goes to the core of the rotten apple that is
the world’s financial system.

Folks, you are witnessing the
death throes of a desperate corrupt financial system where the stock markets
and the fractional reserve banking system are at its core. The volatility in
the stock markets are a microcosm of the greed, theft and corruption that has
perpetrated all aspects of our and other countries economic systems. In the
United States, It doesn’t matter who’s in office. Our political system has
turned into a two headed one party system with both parties serving their
masters, Wall Street and the banksters/Federal Reserve. The stock market is
just another ponzi scheme whose intent is to fleece the gullible at the bottom
of the pyramid. The stock market is a rogue element of a financial system that
is meant to funnel the wealth to the elite/banksters who soicopathically
control our financial lives. It is reaching a point where there is nothing more
to take from the 99% of the world. The banksters would separate you from your
rainy day fund if they could gain access to your shoe box or secret compartment
in your purse or wallet. The stock market isn’t the main problem; it’s the
fractional reserve banking system that has set the foundation for outright
theft. We are experiencing the biggest bank and investment robbery in history
and the banks and financial institutions are doing the robbing. When you blame
one political party or another they have you right where they want you, in
fear, divided and distracted to the theft that is going on right in front of
your eyes each and every second of the day.

When you have people on Wall
Street day trading and speculating making half a million dollars a year in
their twenties betting on people being foreclosed on, you need to ask yourself
what is the true purpose of our banking
system? At the moment it is largely a theft on the American public. MF
Global CEO, ex Goldman Sachs CEO Jim Corzine knows this and knows that nobody
with his connections have served any time for stealing the investor’s money
(1.2 billion at last count). Thefinancial system’s main mission should be to allocate
capital to areas of greatest growth in the real world economy. Yet they allow
all kinds of broker speculation and financial gimmicks such as the derivative
markets which are based on non-realistic side bets which are now in the
quadrillions. The derivatives market was illegal for most of the 20^th century.

The European banking crisis
is a prime example of what is going to happen to all economies associated with
stock market fraud and the Federal Reserve banking system. The financial strife
in Greece is the model that will befall most countries. Greece is but a symptom
of a cancer that has attached itself to the world’s economies. The Federal
Reserve (which is neither federal nor a reserve) has been creating money
(monopoly money) out of thin air and charging interest on it insuring a debtor
economy for anyone who chooses or is forced to get involved with the Federal
Reserve and their fractional reserve banking system. That is why this whole
European or any countries current debt crisis will never be resolved and will
be preyed upon by the stock market vultures. The
Federal Reserve System is designed to cause economies to fail.

If someone loans you two
dollars to run your economy and expects three back for the loan and interest
how are you going to pay the third back? You can’t unless you borrow more
dollars which puts you in perpetual debt and in a constant borrowing cycle to
pay off the debt. This is designed not accidental.

Here’s the kicker, once the
Federal Reserve/banksters have you struggling to pay off your interest, they
send in their loan sharks the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The IMF will
loan you money to cover your ever burdening interest payments but they attach a
provision that if you default, you will have to give them your assets in what
they call privatization (foreclosure).

Since the interest is exponential,
you will default and the banksters will come in and try to foreclose on your
country, like Greece. They are
being told to sell off their own country to pay back the people who caused the
mess to begin with. This
allows the elite to steal your intrinsic valuable assets because they gave you
paper (loans/debt) and the interest on the debt that is systematically
impossible to pay back. This also allows the parasitic stock speculators to
profit from this designed theft. They not only know the outcome of an economy,
they can gamble on the economic bubbles at the investor’s expense. This cancer
goes all the way down the food chain.

In the United States case, it
doesn’t have to be that way. In our
constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, it stipulates that we can “coin
money” as a nation and avoid the Federal Reserve’s interest (fee charged on
loans) black hole.

So don’t be fooled that the
Europeans have come to grips with their financial debt, it’s impossible, it’s a
designed virus that has spread around the globe. The Europeans are now
replacing their leaders with technocrats/ex Goldman Sachs banksters. These
people haven’t been elected by anybody. The stock market vultures will continue
to contrive “financial instruments” (credit default swaps/credit derivatives)
to defraud the people of the world.

Banks, Central banks, World
Bank, BIS, IMF = Federal
Reserve = Debtor economies,
Debtor Nations (economic slaves) and carrion for the stock market derivative
heist.

Good posts in this thread, most of them. I was expecting a bunch of "Obama this" or "GOP that," but instead I've gained a little perspective on this issue. Thanks.

Now that's interesting,

Hard to find fault with that.

We are so screwed!

Greece has been in decline in modern times AGAIN for decades. I know since my roomate back in 1989 was from Greece and he told me things I could hardly believe.

Anyone see the irony in all this that Greece was once the cradle of civilization and then declined, just as later Rome (Italy) was once the cradle of civilization and then declined? And we claim to know and understand history in order to not repeat the mistakes of the past? Greece obviously didn't pay attention, and we in the US certainly are not paying attention to the history lessons of Greece or Rome.

We can always blame that on the education system doing a poor job of teaching, but I am not sure what George W's excuse was for doing what he did and repeating basic mistakes.

The attacks on the banks that some are making here are not justified. The banks only did what they thought they were supposed to do -- lend money. They were under the mistaken belief the the European Union would make good on the bad debt --- especially the sovereign debt.

This has a great number of similarities to the situation surrounding the housing bubble in the US. The banks kept making bad loans because banks believed that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were backed by the full faith and credit of the US government. However, when the loans went sour the US government failed to back the financial institutions that they had created. In essence the government defrauded the banks, conned them, and lied to them, in order to get them to do what they wanted -- in order to get politicians elected.

It is politicians within the framework of Democracy that are bringing these countries down, and who are bringing down America. Politicians will lie cheat and steal to get themselves elected, and then they will turn around and blame the people who they have defrauded. Politicians stab their victims in the back, and then accuse them of carrying concealed weapons.

This is why Democracy will not survive if people are not well educated in history and economics. The public has learned that it can vote for money, and the politicians know that they will only continue to be elected if they can find a way to give the voters the money they are asking for. This is all about bread and circuses for the people.

The truth is that the in a democracy, We The People are responsible. We must insist that our politicians make the hard choices that must be made in order for the government to meet its obligations. If we do not, then we are in essence complicit in the fraud. We do not accept responsibility for our role in these crimes, and therefore we blame those who we have defrauded.

Funny, Trustverify's long, illogical rant and Walkaway's long, illogical rant are the same.

Not going to bother pointing out the fallacies there, just curious as to whether it's the same person or just some third party's ignorant speech copy-pasted onto the comment board.

Where is the list??..of debt ridden countries? I will find it...

A while back, wished I would have saved the link, was a link to chart of countries basically that...how to put this they are BROKE or DEBT SLAVES...I think Iceland is owned by the IMF and a few other countries as I think Ireland are financially in hock for forever and will be dictated to. This while the nations elected representatives strangle the middle class, let the poor fend for themselves and flex the mighty power of the real elite and their special interests. The total corruption and debauchery of Capitalism forged with a messianic mission. What could be more fitting an end to this abomination drop the big one who cares I am not afraid. I don't beckon Armageddon but many have noted a world wide financial shell game within a house of cards and these fanatic regulous maniacs on the loose even on a national stage and world level.

The headlines from insurance covered prescriptions for even private health insurance for pregnancy prevention for woman to riots in Greece, less than 24 hours, and you haven't seen anything wait till the 1% come a knocking on your door to pay up for the party of the last 12 years. What happened to the triggers? More delay I suppose they will get around to dealing with the nations financial crisis one of these days ho hum. How is that New World Order thing working out for yaa? Just thought I would ask??? The NDAA??? Fema Camps???

Have a great day....

People employed by governments generally don't produce anything of tangible value, hence the value of their money goes down. Greece only has about 12 million people and the country is about the size of Florida and much of it is useless mountains. It is not an industrial nation nor does it have much natural resources, Socialists never seem understand you don't get something for nothing. Time to pay the piper.

Looks like Greece is coming apart. To bad they can't repeal that fundamental law that you can't have your cake and eat it to. Why don't they just speak plainly and say , we want to borrow your money and not pay it back. We want to live beyond our means with your money.

what are these people protesting exactly? have they lost their mind?

are these the descendants of Plato, Socrates, Aristotle and the like? what have they become?

do they believe their country deserves free loans that don't need to be repaid?

it's not like Greece is being treated unfairly, this would be the 6th time they default or so?

too bad Alexander da Great is no longer alive. can't just pay Iran's territories a visit and "borrow" a few tons of gold and anymore.

there are a lot of poor people in underdeveloped Asian countries having no jobs, no government assistance or working in sweatshops but they don't riot. do the Greeks think they are special children of Zeus and are entitled to free money?

here's a solution: set up sweatshops in Greece. they have fueled several booming Asian economies. employ the 13 y/o's too for a speedy recovery!

Hello SF accountant, that's actually my rant but anybody is allowed to use it to help educate others. Once we learn how money is created and how it affects economies I believe we will change it. The key is to change from Federal Reserve Notes to United States Notes. Enclosed is an explanation of how money is created:

“Money” is derived from debt. The U.S requests Federal Reserve notes (debt) from the Federal Reserve (which is neither federal nor a reserve) by giving paper Treasury Bonds (debt) to the Federal Reserve in exchange. As a result, a concept is agreed upon, debt for debt, not anything tangible is agreed upon. Monopoly money is then authorized (created but not minted, that is done by Federal mints) by a consortium of mostly European banksters with the Rothschild’s at its head is also created out of thin air. Tack on Interest to that debt now owed to a foreign entity and you have a perfect storm for taking over and controlling economies and nations. The pool of debt money (exchange of Treasury Bonds for Federal Reserve notes) put in the system is now always there and can be replenished by borrowing more (exchanging more bonds for more notes) but the interest added to the debt is never put into the system and therefore can never be paid back. If there were no debts owed in our money system (money put in to the system and then paid back) there wouldn’t be any “money”, but because there is interest attached we will always have a negative balance by always having to borrow to pay the interest that is attached to every dollar borrowed. The interest is exponential and we can never break even again with the Federal Reserve and will always be in debt to them. “Money” isn’t designed to represent the value of the goods and services in any economy, it is merely used as an exchange for the goods and services, it is designed to put you into debt. The concept of interest owed and attached to loans will always exceed the money in circulation. So the big pool of money owed is bigger than the pool we as laborers actually have to draw on to pay our bills. It’s like musical chairs we are always competing for the small pool of money and there have to be winners and losers in this system. That’s why inflation is a constant and new money is always needed to cover the interest. Interest (usury) is the bullet in the Federal Reserve’s weapon of mass destruction. Without a country controlling and managing their own currency they are then relegated to economic slavery.

Hello WalkawayOKdotcom, if everyone walked away it would just cause more bad things to happen to good people. Here's another interesting bit of news our presstitutes aren't covering!

The ISDA (International Swaps and Derivative Association) is expected to make a decision in the next week on whether five major US banks will go insolvent. The ISDA organization is more powerful than governments, they determine how world financial events are categorized. These are the people who are going to determine if Greece is a credit event that constitutes a default. If so, the 5 largest banks in America who hold 97% of the over the counter derivatives will have to pay up and will collapse because they don’t have the resources to pay off the credit default swaps they are liable for. The derivative market liability is estimated to be 1.4 quadrillion dollars. Our global Gross Domestic Product is estimated at around 65 Trillion.

The saving grace for the banks is that they heavily influence the ISDA and can even be called the ISDA. I know that sounds like double speak but we are coming to the end of the road when the banks are going to have a coming to meet Jesus meeting regarding their actual liquidity.

In other words the markets call taking a loss and in this case on Greek bonds a haircut (loss on expected return of bond investment). They have already taken a 50% loss on Greek bonds but the ISDA didn’t call that credit event a default. If you or I invested our life savings on Greek bonds and we were told we would have to take a 50% loss on our expected return, I think we would call that a default.

Now, the European Union is telling the Greek bond holders that they will have to take a 70% haircut. The predicament that is clearly becoming evident is at what point does the ISDA consider bond losses a default. You see where this is headed? Even if the ISDA doesn’t declare a 70% loss as a default with a straight face, which they probably won’t since the banks have a big say in the default declaration, it is getting dangerously close to the 100% loss. At the 100% loss how can they not call that a default and then the USA’s 5 largest banks are forced to pay and can’t which would cause them to collapse. Greek bondholders who thought they had principal insurance are now screwed and left holding the bag. Greek bondholders (big euro banks, big Euro governments, big hedge funds) will now be insolvent.

Greece is bankrupt and the bulk of the austerity measures haven’t even been implemented yet which will seriously impede their productivity.

In order to stave off the inevitable later rather than sooner, being that it is an election year and all, the powers that be will try not to allow this to happen. We will see global QE3 (printing and devaluing currency) on steroids until Greece succumbs to their ordained default status. The Federal Reserve Currency Swaps going on right now in my estimation were the beginning of QE3.

Don’t expect the media presstitutes to cover the climax of this obscene financial abortion called the derivatives market. Once this starts to occur in earnest, listen for the beating of the one world currency drums.

To see for yourself how much power the ISDA wields, Google the International Swaps and Derivative Association.

Retirement at 45, 'free' healthcare....over-taxation...sound familiar? ABO 2012

These comparisons of Greece vs. US are pointless because the economic situations aren't the same. A major difference is that Greece, unlike the US, doesn't control its monetary policy. If you don't think that's important, consider the UK. In many economic measures, it is similar to some of the Euro-zone countries that now have difficulty in selling debt. Yet, like the US, it has no trouble issuing debt. That's because it is using its own currency. The market understands the difference.

International economics are quite a bit different than your household budget.

I bought a car years ago, the value of the car is around 10k, during times of unemployment the bank worked with me, until I got down to owing under 2k, now they wanna repo when I am 30 days late.

my guess they know they can resell the car and make more money reselling it, f the bankers and their lawyers, now I intentionally make my payment on the the 29'th day so they waste their money sending notices of harrassment

"G. Bush made his share of mistakes alright, but Obama took the baton from him and kept on running! LOL"

Agreed! They both had agendas that flew in the face of what History teaches.

I am an independent voter and believe that at their core values, both the GOP and the Democratic parties are obsolete for the 21st century and where in it's life cycle the US is today.

New parties have been popping out but none so far with a firm basis and a set of reasonable beliefs at its core.

Why? He has less than 9 months left in office and even though he is trying his hardest, he cannot screw up the US that fast.

Banaschar.......wanna wager ?

Keep an eye out for his "next" Executive Order bypassing the Congressional process.

Ron Paul in 2012 or SHTF

Banaschar Who is going to be elected? Huckabee or Arnold?

WTF: today the obama administration issued a executive law; all insurance company's must pay for planned parenthood (abortion on demand); even if their policy excludes that coverage; in plain words impairment of contract is no longer in our Constitution, we are now ruled by federal edict; we have allowed our Constitution to be torn into little pieces; where is Congress, out raising money from international lobbyists to get re-elected.

Your an idiot.

Your an idiot.

It's "you're", just FYI.

Uhh, Saxon, I believe he was talking about the birth control pill? Not abortion.

saxon an idiot, brainwashed listening to fox news

ZZ-your post got me to thinking that the only ones wanting to continue the borrowing game is the Greek government because it worked for them so far. People in the streets already care at this point. I doubt they feel they owe anything to anyone. Truthfully if you are already poor would you want to agree to keep doing the same thing? it has become a "have" versus "have not" scenario, and that's why one side doesn't mind destroying the possessions of the other side.

Sound anything like what Obama is pandering? 49.1% of "Tax Filers" pay $'0' in taxes!

Sounds like politicians here in general.

Obama wants to raise taxes on the rich, cut taxes and spend on the poor.

GOP wants to cut taxes on the rich, raise taxes on the poor.

Just have to pick your poison I guess.

Edit:

I made this point in another thread a few weeks ago, but I'll make it again.

I think a large problem of our debt is that politicians just seemingly copy the previous year's budget and make some changes and call it done.

What they should do is start from scratch. That way you have to re-add every little expense (they add up) and see what you really need and what you don't.

Ted, how can those 49.1% pay taxes when they don't have a pot to piss in?

They should pay something, even if it's $20-$100.

Many of them still have cell phones, internet, computers, and cable TV.

MacDeezy, a person making 20k per year in America is in the 49.1% that pay no taxes. And they are also in the top 15% of the world's richest. Most of those who grumble about being poor in America are actually rich by the world's standards. They are only in a squeeze financially because they refuse to live within their means. My families household income is $63,000 - in the top 1% of the worlds population, and we live very comfortably on LESS THAN HALF of what WE TAKE HOME AFTER TAXES. It isn't hard, you just cannot try to keep up with the Jones'.

EVERYBODY pays some taxes. Even the poor pay taxes, local/state/federal on their purchases. It's the people who are too poor to pay FEDERAL income taxes, the families of four earning less than $20,000 a year that the right is cynically trying to make the scapegoat for our fiscal problems, instead of the super rich who's portion of the tax burden has been plumeting at the same time their actual portion of the country's total wealth has been skyrocketing.

They aren't too poor to pay $20-$100 in federal income taxes when they're blowing it on cell phones, cable, computers, etc.

Every little expense the government has adds up, but so does every missed source of income.

Yes I'm sick of Mitt Romney paying less % of taxes than I am, but I'm also sick of "poor" that can afford the wants of life but don't pay federal income tax.

They already do conservatards. State/local/sales/ss/fuel taxes etc. Basically you're saying that just because they can afford some basic luxuries they aren't paying their fair share? Ok let's take those most basic of luxuries away for an extremely insignificant amount of revenue. Sounds like a plan.

Taxpayer's generally pay what the IRS rule book says pay. The 49% use a software program approved by Standard Accounting Practices and current tax law and file and pay or don't pay according to what is spit out. Current tax law is not written by the 49% but by Congress and the Lobbyist.

Basically you're saying that just because they can afford some basic luxuries they aren't paying their fair share?

Uh, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a luxury. It's a want, not a need.

I'm tired of giving entitlements and tax breaks to people for their necessities when they are just buying luxuries instead.

It's bull.

Taxpayer's generally pay what the IRS rule book says pay.

We know, we're discussing our opinions on whether that should be changed.

Absolutely change the tax codes! Go with the fair tax. Everyone pays 10% (or whatever percentage works).

Then change the welfare law. Why the lleh can't they pee in a cup to get that free cell phone.

Then do like Alabama and get strict on the foodstamps. If your hear illegally? Well help your anchor baby but you're on your own.

They already do conservatards.

Gee, how long did it take you to come up with that one? You should hook up with some elementary school kids; they're good at that sort of thing.

Go with the fair tax. Everyone pays 10% (or whatever percentage works).

That's a flat tax, which is more unfair to the poor than the rich.

We should maintain a progressive tax system, but just make sure everyone that can contribute should.

Wow the very poor get a whole 12$ a day from the government! Those lazy thieves! We should tax those guys more and the people who actually make millions less. Seems like it makes perfect economic sense to me. We keep those dirty poor folk down and the rich will be able to get even richer so they can create more "jobs".

The very poor do not constitute all of the 47-49% of federal returns that netted no taxes.

In fact, the quote "$12 a day" is in reference to the very poor that make up about 1% of this nation.

Oh, and I wonder, how many of those "very poor" breed even though they cannot afford it? Oh that's fine, the taxpayers will foot the bill.

Disgusting.

Your blunt sarcasm fails to address or dispute any particular point, Satanick.

Being poor is not a virtue, and being rich is not a sin. If you're treating taxes as punishment, why should we punish the successful and reward those who are not? Why do they deserve it?

And so long as you're being ironic, taxing the rich more and giving handouts to the poor doesn't make economic sense or create jobs. One begins to wonder what does.

To go off what SF said, here's the issue we have in our society today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_trap

People won't work because the monetary return isn't there. This leaves two choices.

1) We raise the minimum wage. This makes labor more expensive and hurts businesses already struggling from the recession.

2) We cut entitlements and "welfare" programs. This makes them want to work for money.

Regardless of the choice we pick, we should make those collecting unemployment work for it. There are plenty of "community service" organizations that'd enjoy the extra workers. That way, the unemployed don't get paid for doing nothing.

@ Ruken but its fine with you that by 2022 taxpayers will have shelled out an estimated $5.4 trillion in order to cover the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy?
@ SF
Don't blame the poor for not having enough money to pay income taxes. Blame the CEOs and board of directors in the companies they work for who give themselves outrageous pay raises. Some of these guys make $50,000 a day, many $50,000 an hour. And people are advocating that them paying a little bit more is unfair? It makes little economic sense to have all the wealth hoarded at the top of the pyramid. Who creates more demand, one man with a billion dollars or a 100,000 men with 100,000 dollars? Which will generates more tax revenues for our government?

the poor are hurt the most by the hidden tax, inflation. the banking system is fraudulent, and all talk of spending and taxes is moot until that is rectified

@ Ruken but its fine with you that by 2022 taxpayers will have shelled out an estimated $5.4 trillion in order to cover the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy?

Yea, I am not exactly happy with the fact Mitt Romney pays less % in taxes than I do. Our tax system needs to be more progressive.

Then there's corporations. We all know about how GE never pays taxes. That's BS and needs to get fixed as well.

the poor are hurt the most by the hidden tax, inflation. the banking system is fraudulent, and all talk of spending and taxes is moot until that is rectified

Do you mean like those making minimum wage are most hurt? That I can see.

Banking system is fraudulent? I thought what they were doing was immoral, but not illegal. I agree they had deceptive practices (teaser rates) but wasn't that reigned in?

But this is on the topic of government income and spending, not banks. The government has been spending all it wants, with large portions going towards entitlements (like Greece). And as others pointed out the US government also has a large portion not paying federal income tax (also like Greece) so the worry is that we're going to end up like Greece.

We have too much government spending in general, not just in entitlements. Reforming Medicare should be on the top of the list. Along with cutting back on the military.

We have too much government spending in general, not just in entitlements. Reforming Medicare should be on the top of the list. Along with cutting back on the military.

Now the military I agree with, and was happy Obama did it.

Medicare needs a total rehaul. Every time I see one of those "scooter" ads, or junk pump for old men, I want to vomit. Because each of those ads always say "with no cost to you"! That's because it's costing the taxpayers instead!

Lastly, I think we need to drop the Child Tax Credit. It is seemingly just another means to get people that can't afford it to breed. Something needs to be done about poor people that insist on bumping uglies that either intentionally or unintentionally bring about children they cannot support. Remember that article about OWS taking over that foreclosed home for that homeless family? That homeless family consisted of parents that decided to have not one, but two kids starting when they were high school aged and living in a homeless shelter. They were conceiving kids in a shelter...that's the very definition of wrong.

The GOP actually proposed something awhile back I agree with: GED requirement for unemployment. While I think we should allow those over 50 (since a HS degree wasn't necessary back then) a pass, I think anyone younger shouldn't be supported because they made a terrible life decision.

It is a start but it hardly goes far enough. Nothing was even cut! They just cut the rate they planned to spend in the future haha

It is a start but it hardly goes far enough. Nothing was even cut! They just cut the rate they planned to spend in the future haha

Yea, that's because they pass the budget in advance. So they're doing the budget for future years with those cuts.

Or make the child tax credit something that is only available in between a certain income bracket.

Are you two ready to kiss and make up?

What great exchanges of the basic ideas that define us.

I actually don't disagree much with your suggestions, Satanick, it's just your economic logic and idea of "fairness" that irks me.

"Don't blame the poor for not having enough money to pay income taxes. Blame the CEOs and board of directors in the companies they work for who give themselves outrageous pay raises."

Why shouldn't I blame the poor for not having any money? Money is something that is earned. Nobody has a right to a living wage. And why should I blame CEOs for managing companies that make so much money that they can dish out enormous paychecks? I may not like it but until they're arrested they've done nothing immoral as far as I can tell. You tell me to blame them but give no reason why, just a bunch of numbers that apparently enrage you but not me.

"Who creates more demand, one man with a billion dollars or a 100,000 men with 100,000 dollars? Which will generates more tax revenues for our government?"

Your first point is a logical fallacy, since demand is not the singular goal of wealth creation or government policy. Much of that money goes toward investment, which is a crucial component for growth, and thus the creation of (drumroll, please) JOBS! Your second point is a moral fallacy, because citizens are not "revenue sources" for government. The government serves its citizens, and taxes them as is necessary to fund its service. "Maximizing revenue" is not and never should be a government objective, and any consideration of "what creates more revenue" should always take a back seat to other concerns such as economic impact, legal mandate, and fairness.

With all that said, I don't have any problem with repealing the Bush tax cuts, although it's a poor substitute for full-blown tax reform. I simply object to the common portrayal of the poor as hapless victims and the rich as cruel financial overlords. Passing an arbitrary wealth threshold does not mystically make someone evil.

Hey Ruken did you watch the video, sales tax is 23% and public employees had there salaries cut by 40%?! For there governments debt? silly ruken

What does that have to do with what Ruken was saying?

Besides, that tax regime is desperate and ridiculous. With their economy so restrained, and their rate of tax evasion as high as it is, who's going to pay those tax rates? They're using the bluntest tools available for a variety of complicated problems.

What they need is some Mario Monti-style reform. When even Italy is starting to make you look bad, you know you're scraping bottom.

@ SF
My statement is not a logical fallacy since demand is the primary driving force of economics. Investing is just banking on future demand. If I was to invest money into a company it would be because I expect the demand of that companies goods and services to increase. Jobs are just reflective of the demand within an economy. When the economy is in a recession there are less jobs because there is less demand for goods and services. I am just advocating an economic system where we emphasize the strength of the middle class over the strength of the upper class because even the richest person in the world can not generate the same demand within an economy as thousands of middle class families. They would still be constrained by time.
My second point could be construed as morally wrong, I concede that point. However my idea still stands. The government would generate more revenues if there were more people in the middle class who could afford to pay income taxes.

Ruken, you are the most biggest idiot in any thread, I pay almost 40% in fed taxes and romney pays 15? spare me your rant assailing the poor and stfu

They will protest some more that now they are starving and the EU should be sending food aid.

I say let Greece and Italy fail. Then the Eurozone will collapse and the US economy will tank along with it and we can all default. It is going to happen eventually anyway at the rate we are all spending so why not let it happen now

Sounds like the current US system to me.

Just wiping the slate negates any responsibility. With the lack of personal and corporate responsibility ("Bail me out plox!") going on in our country, I don't think this is the right call.

Ultimately, it is people who hold the debt of others, whether they be individuals, companies, or governments. These debts are held in the form of bonds, stocks, and other assets. Even the relatively poor are debt holders if they have any interest at all in a retirement fund, 401k, etc. So, cancelling all debt will guarantee that everybody loses, and will result in more death, destruction, and suffering than any of us can possibly imagine. Much better to swallow our pride, adjust our expectations, and WORK our way out of the current situation.

I'm just trying to find a solution. I don't see how to "squeeze blood out of a rock".

How about all (worldwide debt payments) are suspended ( but debt still outstanding) and see what countries can produce while really trying( not sitting on their behinds)? give it a year and reconvene then. I'm sure bankers will have a problem with this solution but being that governments are the ones having done the lending it could fly. I like that better than reissuing new/more debt. this issuing more debt to pay the interest on what is already owed is not a solution, as it only leads to more being owed with bigger paybacks. That's what we are doing in America as well. the system is sick.

No one is responsible for anything , Dave ? . I always thought that the people who are elected to govern are supposed to represent us , not the International Bankers Club. If someone pays you to watch that his house is not robbed and you open the door for the robbers to steal everything, aren't you a criminal ?

How aboout worldwide financial amnesty and starting fresh without screwing up this time?

The only problem with this is that it penalizes those who didn't screw up the first time. I.E. if I didn't buy too much house but you financed a monster why is it my problem?

Joe, you misapprehend my meaning. What I want to convey is the fact that EVERYBODY has a stake in our extant financial system, however twisted and corrupt it may be. Cancelling all debt will hurt people, real people, in ways which no government can fix. So, we desperately need measured, honest, and effective reforms, not mass revolt and revolution. The formula for starting WWIII could well be general default. Perhaps there are some who favor such measures in the interest of population control, but I do not.

I think a general default is inevitable. If Italy and Greece fail then the Eurozone goes bye bye and the US is heavily invested in Europe...

Dave, the poor have 401K's? What world are you living in?

let her rip, that's a great equalizer.

Somebody had to accept the loans. I'm sure they enjoyed spending the money.

That's not what's happening in Greece. The government has made unfunded commitments that exceed the total domestic production of the nation. The borrowing is by the government to finance the debt that continues to accummulate. The people have become so accustomed to the social programs their government provides that they are unwilling to accept cuts to those programs; neither are they willing to accept increases to their burden to fund those programs. Sound familiar? Their government is in a financial death spiral that is fueled by the citizens' continuing demands for government services in the face of mounting debt and impending national default. Sound familiar?

The Federal debt of the United States of America currently exceeds our annual gross domestic product, and is forecast to rise by more than $1 TRILLION per year for the next ten years and beyond. This does not count state and municipal debt.

By the way, when you refer to thieving banksters, I take it you're willing to lend large sums of money to people or companies with whom you have no relationship and expect nothing in return for consideration of the risk you're taking? Why don't you withdraw $50,000 from your 401(k) or IRA and send it to me? I promise I'll pay it back. You won't charge any interest, right?

There's no guarantees when you loan someone money. You take a risk in loaning it out. The interest paid is your compensation for that risk.

Anyway much of the money lent to Greece was made up out of thin air by the banksters. And why would the banksters lend them more money when it looked like they were in bad shape years ago? Talk about throwing good money after bad. The banksters made a bet that the people of Greece would allow endentured servitude to pay for the banksters. Now some of those people are rioting. What else can be expected?

But since they spent the money on operating costs instead of capital investments with an ROI, they are truely addicted. "Addiction" doesnt have a long-term plan.

"There's no guarantees when you loan someone money. You take a risk in loaning it out. The interest paid is your compensation for that risk."

You show basic financial knowledge, but then give us this:

"Anyway much of the money lent to Greece was made up out of thin air by the banksters. And why would the banksters lend them more money when it looked like they were in bad shape years ago? Talk about throwing good money after bad. The banksters made a bet that the people of Greece would allow endentured servitude to pay for the banksters."

Made up out of thin air? How? As for why "banksters" would lend money to an institution that isn't in great shape, greater risks entail greater returns. And as hard as they try, banks and financiers can't always predict whether they're making a good deal or not. And you're blaming them for lending out their money? They understood that and you seem to as well, so what's the problem?

Your rhetoric of "indentured servitude" is meaningless. People lent them money and expected to be paid back. Greece can't pay them back because their political system isn't capable of raising the funds or managing their government properly. Yet the country hasn't gone into default (which is the aforementioned risk) because politicians across that continent are afraid of the consequences.

I look at the situation and can't see where the banksters have done anything wrong. Politicians have turned a well-established system into a mockery with their nonsense about "voluntary haircuts" and half-assed measures to try and keep lender's insurance from working properly.

SF, what Bernanke calls quantitative easing I like to call counterfiting or making it up out of thin air.

The banksters and governments solutions to this, and most debt crises of recent, has been to simply give more money. They start taking over the country and imposing auterity measures on the population. They are as bad as loan sharks.

But that's not what happened to Greece. In fact, they CAN'T do that to try to fix their problem specifically because they're in the Euro and beholden to private bond investors, NOT central banks (well, not principally anyway).

And the "banksters and governments" would actually prefer that the Greeks slash their budget to a sustainable level immediately, but Greece won't do that. So either they lend Greece more money or watch them die (and the banksters, for one, would let them do just that, it's the politicians that won't let them). So you get austerity. There simply isn't enough money otherwise. Still not banker's fault.

Then this is the primary question for the Greeks, the banks, the EU even the USA, because we're all involved; how should one force austerity on an sovereign nation from the outside? Will this ever work?

Wow sometimes I agree with you.

Or, we could just have a real jobs program and put America back to work. Working Americans pay taxes and buy merchandise, and increase the revenues. Republicans want big unemployment numbers so corporate America has cheap labor. If republicans had their way, the US job force would look like the Chinese job force.

Your analysis is perfect. The only flaw I find in that is our GDP shrank by nearly 11% in 2008, but our debt kept growing. Naturally when one portion of the ratio shrinks while the oher grows, the ratio is bound to go off balance.

That is also another reason the US needs to watch out for. Things can get out of control really quickly. The GDP can shrink again and interest rates can rise sharply there by ballooning our debt to GDP ratio to 150% in no time.

"Jobs 'programs'" are a poor way to get an economy going. You have to spend tax (I.E. borrowed) money to pay salaries and make up jobs to do.

How about this as an idea? Get the government out of the pockets of the small business and let them do business. Maybe if they didn't have to pay 30 or 40% of their profits to support the government they might expand and jobs would then be created based on economic activity instead of government hand outs.

Just a thought.

@Max - Yeah, getting government off the backs of corporations worked so well for Bush. Creating jobs is how Roosevelt pulled America out of the last republican created depression.

corporations get plenty of welfare, they don't need any more.

Trying to grow your way out of this mess is like an addict just getting more crack so they feel better. Sooner or later, you have to face the pain. There's no free lunch.

"Yeah, getting government off the backs of corporations worked so well for Bush."

No, it didn't, because he didn't try. Regulatory oversight grew considerably under Bush.

Max is correct. The government creating jobs for the sake of handing out money (which it takes from people who might otherwise spend that money on something useful or productive) is incredibly inefficient and unsustainable if government is trying to cut its deficit.

Your right, almost. If you took every dime from every 1% we still could not pay for our defence budget and entitlements programs. What this country needs is manufacturing jobs and to have those manufacturing jobs we need to tax China and other countries an import fee for the differences in what is spent on environmental investments and a living wage. we have traded having treaties to have friends for our manufacturing jobs and without our manufacturing jobs we have lost our tax base. Those jobs cannot be replaced with government funded jobs because those jobs cost more than they are worth. You can blame anybody and everybody but in the end if you spend every-bodies money you will still be broke.

We haven't lost our tax base at all. We still have a huge tax base, and will continue to have a huge tax base even if every single manufacturing job is outsourced. Our budget is simply bigger.

This has nothing to do with "1%" or "99%" or particular industrial sectors. It's simple economics and government policy. Not every problem fits into class warfare or trade terms.

When does the Occupy Greece movement meet next? Sounds similar to US. Everybody expecting something from the other guy, instead of going out and earning a living for yourself, and being self-sufficient.

Hopefully.

Yeah, the military there is taking on the wrong people. The military should help the people end the foreign bankster coup de'tat.

They cant. Greece is truely addicted to the money. They need the banksters for their next fix. No addict will ever piss off his dealer.

Yes their excessive social welfare programs are part of the problem but not the entirety of it.

High Social welfare + No taxes = Default? Who would have guessed?

Greece should go into default. Although it'd be a shame if the politicians that borrowed more money then they could plausibly pay back managed to shift the blame onto the people who lent them money.

The problem is that they are in a monetary union, so isolationism isn't really an option. There's a reason some people call the EU the "United States of Europe".

On that note, transfer unions CAN work. The US is a massive transfer union. States that produce more tax revenue than they end up spending regularly subsidize states that do not. The difference is that we have political union too. Having one without the other can make a mess of the system.

Unlikely. The United States is leaps and bounds beyond Greece in terms of competetiveness and productivity. We also have enormous scope to cut our budget if we really need to (let's see how many people protest military cuts when they're facing massive tax increases). In addition, the US dollar is the world's reserve currency. America won't have any trouble financing its debt any time soon (which is part of the problem, in a way...). Even losing our AAA credit rating didn't cause so much as a ripple in the bond markets.

When the bill comes due China will be calling the tune and the U.S. will be dancing to it.

Enlightening. Please explain.