I certainly share your abhorrence for trans vaginal ultrasounds as a legal prerequisite for obtaining a abortion.

I still would not compare that with women being taken into custody and then being forced to undergo a "virginity test". Women in states where these ultrasounds are legally required, "for the health of the patient", can, at least turn around and leave the clinic; they retain some control of the situation.

But, I do feel that these medical procedures are abusive, and politically motivated.

And where do they get their abortion then, another state, another country? Its barely better.

Gee this is just so tired and weak. I cannot believe the load of BS I am reading here. As a woman I am offended on a very deep level at the self centered uncaring attitude of the posters above me. How can we turn a blind eye to the suffering of our sisters in other countries. Bluntly I do not give a flying fig at the moment how you feel about abortion. It is a different topic. Can't any of you find it in your hearts to care that young women are suffering and being attacked (and in my opinion sexually assaulted) by the government of their own country. A country which I think we should remember we are on fairly good terms with. Where are we? Why are we not speaking up? Because we are too busy and self centered whining about what IS a lesser issue.

How can anyone equate virginity tests with our own argument over abortion? Let's see in one country a teenage girl can be grabbed off the streets by a gang of armed thugs who would then... what? Think about the horror of what came next. I am not able to even write what the "virginity test" would consist of on this page or it would be taken down for being obscene and for good reason. What takes place is a form of rape without intercourse. In the other country we are arguing over the ability to abort a child without jumping through hoops. Sorry folks but you do not get pregnant from eating watermelon seeds or by having the stork visit. It is NOT a random event. Pregnancy results from unprotected sex. If you do not want to get pregnant don't have unprotected sex. We have excellent birth control available in this country.

I am sorry I know in some rare instances women become pregnant due to rape and are faced with the choice between carrying or aborting a child conceived by rape but lets be realistic it is not the majority of cases. Most abortions happen because someone was stupid or careless and didn't use proper precautions when sleeping around. In Egypt a soldier, police officer or other man in authority can get away with the crime of sexually assaulting ANY female who they decide to arrest under the guise of a "virginity check". Trial, conviction etc are NOT required. They can see you on the street, decide you look suspicious and then get away with a sexual assault without any fear of repercussions. We have friends from Egypt and the only difference between the incidents being reported on here and the usual "sweep it under the rug" approach is that this time the media brought it to the attention of the rest of the world. Imagine how easily this could be abused. The mere fact that this act is tolerated in Egypt and many other countries is a form of rape of every woman because no woman knows when she would be subjected to it. Imagine being afraid to leave your home because of this sort of thing. Imagine trying to raise a daughter in such a country.

How did these post get so far off subject? WTF does the Egyptian Army have to do with the GOP in the U.S. some of these sheeple have lost all sense of reality.

The mere fact that this act is tolerated in Egypt and many other countries is a form of rape of every woman because no woman knows when she would be subjected to it.

It isn't really accepted in the sense that their society obviously doesn't like it, or he wouldn't have been put on trial for it. But it's tolerated in the sense that he gets away with it (if he actually did it.) It's not all that different from our soldiers raping and murdering Iraqi women and then being acquitted - again, if they did it (http://www.democracynow.org/2005/3/29/u_s_soldiers_accused_of_raping ) .

Militaries the world over "take care of their own."

So well said PJ. I think women in the Western world are in a sense "spoiled" (and deservingly) in comparison to women in the middle east who live like breeding machines and prisoners to their culture and the men that rule them. If women in the west decided to rally in the thousands over a issue I don't think any government or group of men would dare get in their way whereas in the middle east the women face torture, rape and possible execution if they dare speak out for their rights. Roughly 97% of female girls were being circumcised in Egypt up to 1996 because a film showing a female child be circumcised by a barber became news and the free world was outraged, which put pressure on the Egyptian government to make it a criminal act. What happens behind closed doors today is anyone's guess.

The right is it is THEIR country.. not yours.

This is why Americans should not be allowed to travel internationally without extensive training.

Before Obama removed the dictator in place this stuff was not occurring.... now it is.

We are not spoiled-we have our basic human rights-at least for now-but everyday the GOP is trying to chip away at those. I agree with the 56 year old poster who can't believe we are still dealing with these issues in 2012. I am also 56 and never would have believed that we would be arguing about access to birth control at this point in my life. I thought my generation would make things better, but it looks like they went off the deep end-too much acid?

I don't see how they can possibly test for virginity anyway. What are they looking for? Are they checking to see if the hymen is intact? According to my understanding of the matter, some women are born without a hymen. So its absence would not be any proof that she is not a virgin. It seems like a silly waste of time to me as well as a violation of a woman's privacy and dignity.

Hey Bill: are you going to stop "sowing your wild oats"? Or is it OK for you to have your jollies but not a woman. Get back to the 18th century where you belong you dinosaur. And, don't forget to have your Viagra RX filled.

@latekate - If women in the west decided to rally in the thousands over a issue I don't think any government or group of men would dare get in their way...

Have you ever read anything about what the female protestors in this country suffered from the authorities when they were fighting for the right to vote?? Oh, it can happen here - and it has.

I am sorry I know in some rare instances women become pregnant due to rape and are faced with the choice between carrying or aborting a child conceived by rape but lets be realistic it is not the majority of cases. Most abortions happen because someone was stupid or careless and didn't use proper precautions when sleeping around.

I happen to agree with you PJ, which is something the women on the left just can't understand.

Mark,

You are far from correct. These things happened continually under Mubarak. The only things that have changed since he stepped down are the increase in the crime rate and the fall in the level of tourism. Don't try to tell me I am wrong - I LIVE here!

Roy, maybe you missed it from your easy chair, but from my position in Tahrir Square it was the Egyptian PEOPLE that were demanding that Mubarak step down.

So the purpose of the 'virginity test' is to find any women that can be raped with impunity?

How civilized. And what if the doctor lies?

Sounds like the Arab version of Dumb and Dumber. But, then again, it really presumptuous of us to think that the rest of the world thinks like us. Heck, I remember having a client about 10 years ago who was charged with raping his wife. The client, in all seriousness, asked me when the laws changed that a man could no longer have his way with his woman whenever he wanted. Go figure. We obviously don't think the same here either.

Well, the "justification" offered was that it was to have record documentation of her hymen's status going into jail - prevent her from later claiming that she was sexually abused while in custody. Logic being that if she was a virgin coming into jail, then the status of her hymen upon release would corroborate or refute any allegations of sexual abuse while in custody. If she wasn't a virgin coming into jail, then she couldn't claim upon release that her cherry got popped in jail. And if she wasn't married and wasn't a virgin, so the logic continues, she's obviously a slut and sluts lie so who cares what she says/ makes up about what happened to her? Even if she got sexually abused in jail, what are a few more di*ks to a whore?

Fakked up, but it was a good enough explanation for the military tribunal that acquitted him.

In reality, the doctor was most likely just trying to cop a feel, and in his mind he probably thought this was a romantic ice breaker.

Isn't this similar to what the far right wants to impose on the women of this country? South Dakota wants to force "religious counseling" for women that seek a legal medical procedure. Mr Santorum wants to rape victims to be forced to bear the child of a rapist. Within the Catholic and Mormon Churches, women are not allowed to enter the clergy and the right wants to dictate morality under the guise of "freedom."

Throwing stones at other backwards countries isn't going to solve any problems. It's a sick misogynistic world, but get your own house in order before you lash out at others.

Another triumph of "arab spring". Obama praised these uprisings as the begining of Democracy. Really? It appears more and more that what has really happened is that the extremeist have taken control here and in other of the middle east uprising countries. How one can be totally wrong on so many levels accidently, is a wonder!

And for those in the narwhal room bringing up transvaginal ultrasounds here, good lord, could you stick to the subject for once instead of trying to put in the 2 cents all you gather big brother data tells you will get women on your side. I don't understand why a required ultrasound would be transvaginal but then maybe that is the clearest new version of the test. But we women know that any exam during pregnancy involves some vaginal internal exam, including the first to determine if you are pregnant. So save the BS outrage about invasiveness.

@ Shaking my head. Indeed I am....surely you are not suggesting Obama's praise for democratic uprising be equated with this event? This and far worse have been ongoing in Egypt for years and years. The only wonder is that you don't seem to understand that. Obama??

As for tranvaginal ultrasounds and invasiveness - I take it by your post, you've not experienced this delight. I have. A vaginal internal exam is one thing. This test in a whole other event.

To help with your education - a non-flexing, tubular probe, approximately 6 inches in length and 1 inch in diameter, is inserted into the vaginal canal. This probe is completely covered by a lubricated condom. The probe can be rotated slightly to obtain close contact images of the uterus and ovaries. The test takes some 40 minutes. This test is general used to evaluate and exam "abnormal pelvic growths and to determine the source of painful cramps or other pain in the pelvic area, unexplained vaginal bleeding or lack of menstrual flow."

Would you care to discuss your comment, "So save the BS outrage about invasiveness."

sandrich and others: I do believe that what the libs fail to see is that once you have decided that the government has the authority to make the decisions over what "care" is to be provided, then you can't deny that they have the right to decide not to provide the care. Personally, I don't think the government has any business being in the healthcare business at all. Regardless of your opinion of whether the Constitution is good or not and whether it actually means anything or not, failure to enforce the Constitution means that the government can do whatever it wants and can make you do whatever it wants. The end result? The people lose and the politicians win. So, don't complain when they decide against you, you've already decided that that is the right of the government and you are to sit still and shut up and obey.

witchrunner

sandrich and others: I do believe that what the libs fail to see is that once you have decided that the government has the authority to make the decisions over what "care" is to be provided, then you can't deny that they have the right to decide not to provide the care. Personally, I don't think the government has any business being in the healthcare business at all. Regardless of your opinion of whether the Constitution is good or not and whether it actually means anything or not, failure to enforce the Constitution means that the government can do whatever it wants and can make you do whatever it wants. The end result? The people lose and the politicians win. So, don't complain when they decide against you, you've already decided that that is the right of the government and you are to sit still and shut up and obey.

That "Constitution" was written by white men for white men and please keep in mind that George Washington believed in a strong central government. Where was this noise when former President Bush enacted "The Patriotic Act" and silenced dissenters? I would tax the churches since they always legislate morality from the pulpit and most are right wing loons.

witchrunner- Having insurance covering birth control is hardly having government decide, you choose it or you don't. Mandating trans vaginal test's, now mandating ultra sound test's, and who pays for these un wanted test's? The patient, sounds like loss of freedoms and rights to me.

PJ- Thank you for your attempt to get these posts back on topic. It's like herding cats, isn't it? We are so polarized as a nation that any opportunity no matter how slight to attack someone is seized. I suspect there were a few Romans in the Forum that attempted to get their Senate back to basics, away from foreign wars and concentrated on the way their empire was disintegrating around them. We seem to be presiding over the demise of our empire as completely uncaring as those ancients were.

@sandtrich

Where was this noise when former President Bush enacted "The Patriotic Act" and silenced dissenters?

If you didn't hear any "noise" when the Patriot Act was coming down you must have been deaf or just didn't give a crap. Like most you must have sat there and said nothing at the time while some of us were waving red flags but conveniently whine and cry about it now.

@ Backcountry164.....and dissenters were blasted across the front pages as unpatriotic! Good post Backrountry.

Sandtrich, you contradict your self. You first indicate that the constitution was written by white men and thus should only apply to white men. Then you use a statement that our first president believed in big government and so should we. I am going to step out on a limb and say that most constitutions in African countries were written by black men. Does that mean that it only applies to them.

You mentioned taxing churches, so you are against the separation of church and state?

I don't understand why so-called conservatives complain about government mandated health care, but support government mandated rape. How is legislating rape not government over-reach? Rape is rape, non-consensual invasion of a women's body, whether it occurs in the US or Egypt. As usual, so-called conservatives blame the victim; it is their fault since they had sex. How is this any different than the Egyptian excuse. They rape women to prove they had sex.

What's next, a colonoscopy for a Viagra prescription? How about a root canal for a vasectomy. Of course they are not medically necessary, and drives up the cost of health care, just to harass the patient. But then, isn't that the point? A forced probe of a women's uterus serves no medical purpose, and is only to harass the patient.

sandtrich: I do believe you highlight the problem we have in this country. Your statement means that you think that just because the Constitution was written by white men that it is bad. Of course the libs have been fighting the race war with everything, the economy, healthcare, immigration, etc. The fact is race as nothing to do with any of it. Funny that you think that the idea of freedom and liberty and making decisions for yourself is something that only white men want. If you don't like freedom there are plenty of places left in the world for you to go, like just about the rest of the world. White men rule Russia. Is Russia better or worse of because they are ruled by white men or because of their communist system? Cuba, Africa, China, India, etc. are ruled by non-white men, does that mean they are better off than the US?

As for the Patriot Act, where have you been for the past 11 years? Of course there have been objections to it. Some have been whole scale, some just against certain parts of it. Obviously the part that allows government officials to grope men, women and children is offensive to a lot of people and it has been widely discussed.

As to the taxation of churches, I must admit that I don't disagree with that. Regardless of what religion it is, most churches are run like businesses. In actuality, I don't think businesses should be taxed at all anyway. The fact is that businesses don't pay taxes, the customers do. The only reason businesses pay taxes is the politicians think they are gaining political points by doing so. Tax the evil corporations! Lessen the taxes of the individuals, unless they run the evil corporations, and then tax them to the hilt too.

Hummbird: You must have missed the discussions about contraceptives lately. Obama and the government decided that the Catholic Church has to provide contraceptives to it's workers. Changing the wording to say that "not the Catholic Church doesn't have to but the insurance company does" is nothing more than form over substance. Yes, it is the government mandating! And yes, the "right" trying to mandate all the anti-abortion stuff is almost the same. The major difference is that the Constitution limits the powers of the federal government. The states have a lot more powers, specifically that which was not explicitly granted to the federal government. Not that that should give the states the powers that the anti-abortion crowd is trying to exert. But, the fact is that there is a big battle going on where the states are having to fight to maintain their rights under the Constitution against politician who see the Constitution as an annoyance to exertion of absolute power.

Roy Wilson, in a majority of your posted comments on the News Vine, you seems to believe that President Obama is hiding behind every tree, under every stone, behind every blade of grass, and is thus responsible for everything you perceive, real or imagined, that is questionable or has gone bad in your world.

I'm not surprised that the community is actively collapsing your comments. Your replies are reactionary associative, self-serving provocation, non-constructive, right-wing-motivated propagandizing, anecdotal-deceptive, overreaching, emotionally divisive, and irrational hyperbole. They're tired of it. I'm almost tempted to suggest you see a psych counselor to facilitate on getting you to self-reflect on your hatred for everything non-conservative in tone, and especially, everything, "Obama."

If in the least for your sake ...give it a rest, man. Making enemies with your maliciously divisive rationalizations are no way to win over local and international readers to your narrow views.

It's not a contradiction. People just rattle off the interpretations of the Constitution as if it's some divine word. I'm not disputing that our Constitution is without merit, but why was slavery allowed? Why were women not included in the process? Why did they deprive women the right to vote or own land? Why did our forefathers foster an attitude of expansion by land grabbing and genocide of indigenous peoples?

These things are rooted in the concept that power and control is more important than the truth.

Imagine for a moment that a foreign super power wanted to invade the US because we have militants training in parts of the US. Imagine that these militant have taken up a cause that involves "god" and hatred of a religion different than their own.

We do have militant groups training in remote areas that are doing exactly what we point out that AQ did and does. McVeigh was one of those militants and there's massive explosion of gun ownership and extremism in Christian fundamentalism. Pro-Israel groups, anti-Israel groups, anti-government groups--just a lot of noise and BS.

I would tax the churches because they refuse to understand separation of church and state and do legislate from the pulpits. They have lobbyists. They skirt the law and in the case of the Catholic Church, they move priests from one continent to another to hide from prosecution for child molestation. Those positions of power are abused by teachers, counselors, scout leaders, and clergy.

Keep your religion, no matter which religion it is, out of my face and out of governance.

Sandtrich, go to a law library, and do some reading. Under FEDERAL law, churches are not allowed to endorse any candidate, or ballot issue, or lose their tax exempt status.

Never mind making women see a ultra sound, in Arizona the Senate Passed a Bill Allowing Doctors To Not Inform Women Of Prenatal Issues To Prevent Abortions.

The Arizona Senate passed a bill this week that gives doctors a free pass to not inform pregnant women of prenatal problems because such information could lead to an abortion.

In other words, doctors can intentionally keep critical health information from pregnant women and can’t be sued for it. According to the Arizona Capitol Times, “the bill’s sponsor is Republican Nancy Barto of Phoenix. She says allowing the medical malpractice lawsuits endorses the idea that if a child is born with a disability, someone is to blame.” So Republicans are banning lawsuits against doctors who keep information from pregnant women so as to prevent them from choosing to have an abortion.

This bill is actually more disturbing than the Republicans seem to realize. Giving doctors such a free pass risks the lives of both the expectant mother and the fetus she carries. Prenatal care isn’t just for discovering birth defects and disabilities. It is also for discovering life threatening issues such as an ectopic pregnancy which often requires an abortion to save the life of the mother. With rare exceptions, ectopic pregnancies are not viable anyway, but Republicans are allowing anti-abortion doctors to keep life threatening information from pregnant women all because they are obsessed with stopping any and all abortions. Women may not know they have a life threatening condition until they die on the emergency room table. And the doctor couldn’t be sued.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/07/arizona-senate-passes-bill-allowing-doctors-to-not-inform-women-of-prenatal-issues-to-prevent-abortions/

How SICK IS THAT in the good ol USA?????

To Republican's the idea of women having access to birth control is BAD! BAD, BAD, BAD! But not informing a pregnant mother of prenatal health issues.......good!?!?!? INSANE!!!!!

Mark Stephens-4334123

Sandtrich, go to a law library, and do some reading. Under FEDERAL law, churches are not allowed to endorse any candidate, or ballot issue, or lose their tax exempt status.

Churches follow laws? I understand those law--the churches don't. A good barometer of how little they care about that law could be found in refusal of communion to a sitting VP for his stance on a woman's right to control her body. Churches defy laws on a constant basis and they push to control the outcome of elections.

Why would I go to a law library--it's all available online. Should I drop by the blacksmith's on the way?

Is Obama still happy that he called for Mubarak to be deposed so the Muslim Brotherhood could take over the formerly 'friendly' Egypt.

Roy Wilson - Do you ever get tired of misrepresenting facts. Obama did not call for Mubarak to be deposed. In the late stages of the revolution, long after Mubarak's fate was sealed, the Obama Administration called on Mubarak to resign.

Also, there is absolutely no connection between this story and the Muslim Brotherhood. These activities were conducted by the Egyptian Military which assumed civil power in February of last year.

Your posts have about as much connection to reality as a comic book.

dman-353357

Is Obama still happy that he called for Mubarak to be deposed so the Muslim Brotherhood could take over the formerly 'friendly' Egypt.

Roy Wilson - Do you ever get tired of misrepresenting facts. Obama did not call for Mubarak to be deposed. In the late stages of the revolution, long after Mubarak's fate was sealed, the Obama Administration called on Mubarak to resign.

He is the master of cherry picking "facts" and embellishing the truth, but only on days that end in Y

"western style government"?? Yeah...right...the kind Republicans want for women where they have to ask for permission before making personal decisions over their own bodies?? Oh yeah, we better protect ALL women from that...

Absolutely right AP - Fathers should have no rights whatsoever! A fetus is just another part of a woman's body. It isn't a separate life created by two people - you tell 'em. Screw science, liberty and responsibility, and damn all of those evil Republicans!

dudogger: Hendador never said it was intended to produce a western-style government; he was merely pointing out the realities over there. But hey, don't let that stop you from creating an opportunity for name calling, not to mention the assumption Hendador watches Fox.

This is what happens when you don't have separation of church and state.

Warning-- the following has nothing to do with the original topic

Absolutely right AP - Fathers should have no rights whatsoever! A fetus is just another part of a woman's body. It isn't a separate life created by two people - you tell 'em. Screw science, liberty and responsibility, and damn all of those evil Republicans!

Sorry if your girlfriend/fiance/wife aborted your baby--but it's best to sort out those issues before getting her pregnant, you know the relationship part? Or just having difficulty with reality?

1. Fetus is inside and dependent on the woman's body.

2. Fathers rights is a separate issue.

3. Science shows individual development is gradual, with the seat of the person being the brain which is not fully developed even at birth (With some people apparently never).

4. Liberty and Responsibility are two things that need to be balanced. People are always going to have trouble with this. Religious right has no right to throw their legal stones--but they do anyway--so who's irresponsible?

5. Yes keep the Republican party as small as possible and hope it breaks up as it seems unlikely that the moderates can ever regain control.

That "Constitution" was written by white men for white men and please keep in mind that George Washington believed in a strong central government. Where was this noise when former President Bush enacted "The Patriotic Act" and silenced dissenters? I would tax the churches since they always legislate morality from the pulpit and most are right wing loons.

What does written by "white people" mean as far as validity? Black people aren't bound by it? Dumb statement without any possible solution, but points brought up after would seem validate the need for it.

I appologize to those that want to keep these posts strictly on topic and serious but this is a highly polarized election year and keeping politics out is a lost cause not matter what the topic is. We aren't deciding anything here--just sounding off--blah blah blah--have your say and then get off the internet and go do something productive.

You saw lots of groping, did you?

Ilene B,

I was here in Cairo throughout the Revolution. I saw plenty of women joining in, and I never saw an instance of groping. I am sure that a few incidents occurred, but probably not nearly as may as would occur under Republican leadership.

Yep. The Arab Spring did want freedom.

Mubarak and the old regime still rules Egypt. The army is the old regime as are all of those currently holding power (the new Parliament has none).

dudogger

You saw lots of groping, did you?

Laura Logan sure did.

...Don't you know those extremist religious wackos who call themselves Republicans are NOTHING like their Muslim brothers? They just want to "help" American women understand the consequences of losing their virginity...Nothing like those religious extremists elsewhere who call it SHARIA law...I mean, gee, women here ought to be greatful they don't have to wear burkas!

So you are saying all Republicans are the same? Does that mean I get to lump all you Dems in a group when one of you does, or says something stupid? I guess it does.

It is Obama that removed the person in power... now they have instituted the most hardcore aspects of Islam into law. All the progress that had been made is now gone.

But you huckleberries keep playing bipartisan.... it has done so good since Woodrow Wilson.

AP-1414066

gee, women here ought to be greatful they don't have to wear burkas!

You should be grateful that a mob of angry women don't hold you down and give you a good haircut.

Mark,

Obama did not remove anyone from power.And until you have spent some time here in Egypt, don't try to tell us how much "progress" ad been made. Mubarak and the SCAF were a repressive regime that enriched the rich and kept the poor poor - kind of like what the GOP stands for.

Yeah...only Republicans are perverts...oops, was Clinton a Republican???

Time for education, jimbo...the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy...

You may call it 'loony' but many of us women see it as losing the rights we have fought long and hard for. We won't go back to being treated as second class citizens.

Back to the kitchen, woman. But first, surrender your shoes.......

Joe,

How about a vaginal probe for you and yours? It is the sicko religious right way!

Joe

100% spot on

Lefties are all about spending others money and trying to force their beliefs on people that do not even fall under their legal code.

Dsb: You only speak for the liberal women ( no pun intended). The republican women are happy with what the republicans are doing. Too many women on the left, get themselves into trouble with their own behavior and then force others to pay for it. It's just that simple.

I don't understand why a vaginal ultrasound would be necessary before obtaining an unnecessary abortion- but I do believe a regular ultrasound would make many women think twice before murdering their children. Now, before all you pro-abortioners freak out, there is no denying that it is a very young human child that the human female is pregnant with. The fetus doesn't change species at the moment of birth. The only difference between a human fetus and a human newborn is about thirty seconds and a breath of air.

The only reason abortion should be performed is for medical necessity, or for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest. It should never be used as a method of birth control. There are too many contraceptives available today; there is no excuse for unnecessary abortions. If you don't want a child, don't have unprotected sex. It's quite possible to avoid unplanned pregnancy and many diseases.

What has the "sexual revolution" done for the human race? STDs are being spread at a faster rate; some are incurable and even deadly. Unwanted children are being conceived, and many of them are murdered. Promiscuous behavior isn't a good thing; it's sad that books and movies and TV shows today are teaching that it's cool or glamorous or sophisticated to have sex with as many people as possible- even if you don't know the other person very well.

Let the flaming begin.

It is "pro-choice", not "pro-abortion". Many pro-choicers are personally against abortion but do not presume to know what another woman should do with her own body.

But the GOP wants to stop access to birth control. I should say, they want to cut insurance for it, making far more difficult for a lot of women to have access to it.

And I should point out it is not about using tax dollars to provide it, it is about defining what minimal standards should be required for an insurance policy. And it is not the insurance companies fighting about it. It is about one group of people trying to force their moral view on another. Of course who is trying to push who's moral view on who is open for debate.

As for churches paying for insurance that includes provisions they do not like or find sinful, I believe there was some religious type who said something like,"Render on to Caesar what is Caesar's, and render onto God that which is God's." Who was that guy? Not sure if he was a Christian or not since his views are outside the Christian reaction in this debate by a very long ways. If the churches are going to push out into secular society, than they have to play by secular rules. In the USA at least, you can not force everyone to toe the line of your religious beliefs.

As to the insurance companies providing such coverage free of charge being a dodge that the churches can not tolerate, do the churches than want the ability to forbid anyone working for them from using their wages to buy condoms? After all the church far more directly provides the money and such a purchase in antithetical to their beliefs. I mean if you are going to dictate peoples private lives, go all the way. Should not everyone working for the church be required to donate back a fixed percentage to the church? Should they not be required to attend services and make sure to put money into the basket when it gets passed around? Who cares what the individual's beliefs are, they chose to work for the church, who should be morally exempt from treating them with respect for their different view of the world.

Done with my rant. As to the actual story here, it is disgusting practice that should of been thrown in the dustbin of history a long time ago. But when you mix religion in anything, change is very difficult to attain. See rant above.

(Last comment, churches like to point out the truth does not change and they should hold fast to their truths. I will point out that God is great beyond our understanding, and our understanding should be growing and changing all the time.)

@ jrae...AMEN. PERFECTLY stated. Yes indeed. As a christian woman - this is exactly what I think....Ooops, should I have entered that I am a christian?

Ah, but here's the catch- what a woman does with her own body is one thing, but what she does with her child's body is quite another.

If someone can be convicted of murder when a pregnant woman and her unborn child are murdered, why is it okay if the pregnant woman murders her unborn child? It's a child in either scenario, so why does the law allow women to murder their unborn children? If the woman waits a few seconds and smashes the baby's head up against the wall in the delivery room, it's murder- but if she pays a doctor to suck out those same brains before delivering the baby, it's not murder. If a pregnant woman abuses illegal drugs known to affect the unborn baby, and the unborn baby is harmed or dies because of that drug abuse, it's called child abuse or murder- but let that same woman ask a doctor to give her a drug to cause the death of that same unborn child, and it's perfectly legal. And, if the drug doesn't work, causing an injured baby to be born, she can sue the doctor for harming that child- even though she was the one who put that child in harm's way.

Anyone who chooses abortion for the sake of convenience is no different than Casey Anthony, Susan Smith or Diane Downey or any other people who kill their children because they're inconvenient. Abortion is a medical procedure that should be reserved for the resolution of true medical problems when no other solution exists. Safe abortion procedures should be available when needed- not simply because the woman wants an abortion.

Seth, first of all, your statement is anti-religion, not anti- women. Let's not confuse the two. Second, if all the men in this country actually believed what the bible says about being responsible christian men, the incidences of rape and mistreatment would go way down. In the bible, this the way women are supposed to be treated.

Treat older women as you would your mother, and treat younger women with all
purity as you would your own sisters. (1 Timothy 5:2)

seth-3076217

can't think of one form of theocracy that protects females , even in the most basic sense, anywhere , ever

With a name like yours I would expect that you know what a Ketubbah is(?) I do understand Israel is a democracy, but I know people will confuse and read into your statement and conclude it is about religion.

Where is there a theocracy other than the Vatican and several muslim State that rely on Sharia for thier legal justifications?

oncearepub

Well oncearepub, all I've heard you say in replying to this article is negatives and bias towards others. From reading your comments and comments from others, it seems you would like this Nation of ours to be only a one party government and everyone march to the same tune.

Where's the right to dissent and then counter with your facts and not ridicule?

Leiya, once upon a time in the USA, people of different spectra of religious and political beliefs could simply and civilly agree to disagree. Those days are long gone, and it is most unfortunate. Nowadays, one may not dissent without having his or her character, patriotism, belief system, totally left in shreds by the one he or she may disagree with. My late grandmother, who was a simple woman, the dear lady said, "It wouldn't do for us all to be the same, now would it?"

We need more civility in our society, we really do, or we will all just tear ourselves apart from the inside out as individuals and as a country. Trying to change someone's personal belief about whatever, is about as futile as trying to shove a wet noodle up a wild cat's backside.

I, just as many of the posters on here are guilty of snarky posts from time to time. The ones that seem to anger me the most are the ones that show a total disregard for the misfortunes of others. We will be just as bad as the countries we Americans purport not to like if we keep on acting this way.

lemur lady

Thank-you for the gracious, concise and poignant comment. Yes, we all make spur of the moment snarky and sometimes snide comments from time to time, but I agree with your beloved grandmother that "we all don't want to be the same do we".

And your abosuletly right about the wet noodle and the cat's behind:) Friends?

WAAAAAAH... The similarity between this doctors action and the military judgment and the rise of Republican "values" in the public discourse, show a common bond of repression towards women. Open your mind and maybe you will grasp the correlation.

Waaaaaah, you don't speak for all women. In fact, it is only liberal women who think that they can control the public. If we don't fit your views, then you say we are against the rights of women. That is called manipulation. This isn't about controlling a women's body. This is about stopping stupid women from making choices that everyone else has to pay for. If it truly against women, then you would have at least 90% of the women on your side, which you don't. Why don't you liberal women go behind a clause that would actually be beneficial towards women? Such as equal pay for equal work? I bet you that you would get that 90%.

Lets see forcing women to undergo a medical procedure against their will is not manipulation? No I don't speak for all woman but Ill take the majority! In your view the majority of woman are stupid for not sharing your diatribe.

@Unhappy - Congress tried to pass a bill mandating "equal pay for equal work" ... Republicans voted it down.

Wall Street Journal: US Paycheck-Fairness Bill Fails In
Senate

Unhappy - Women have been fighting for equal pay for equal work since time began.

Contraception does not work 100% of the time, so unplanned pregnancies are always a possibility. Why is unplanned pregnancy the woman's fault only. Last time I looked to took two to tango, and two to make a baby.

Unhappy,

It was Repub who voted against the "equal pay for equal work" law citing some BS about it hurting business

And surprise, over 90% of American women use contraception. So I think they are "behind" that notion.

As to "controlling the Public", that is classic transferance it is the freaky religious right who want to make everybody into their own image, NOT LIBERALS you putz!!

jrae-1215199

Sorry jrae. The link you provided shows page not found. Try again please. I'd like to read the real facts as to why it was voted down and the connection to Egyptian doctors and virginity testing and the connection or comparison to the GOP.

www.thenation.com/article/156531/paycheck-fairness-dies-senate

Just FYI.

Another American Favoritism

Thanks! I'm going to the website now.

Are you talking about equal rights for liberal women are for women in general? Because republican women aren't buying your cause.

Unhappy

BS!! 90% of American women use contraception if you ARE an actual woman and you think that ALL forms of contraception should not be available then you are just like a working class repub who votes in the clowns who ONLY care about the rich. That is irrational behaviour in both cases I think you need a lobotomy

Lobotomies for Repubs!!

but where in the story does it say repubs, democ, or american politcs? and our military is doing virginity tests? by force? since when?

Actually I want an absolute dictatorship with me as the dictator.

No leiya I don't get derogatory. I go by what is happening in this country. I take no side but Ican see what has happened to the right. They want a Plutocracy.

So in your mind, you want the kind of life where others have to pay for it? What ever happened to earning money through hard work?

.....and this day is different....how?

, remember we must support all different cultures. according to msnbc and their reporters

Again, it is always DEMOCRATS who make assumptions about everyone else. You DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL WOMEN!

Well, it's a cinch the teapublicans aren't speaking out for women...