This is his bio page from Defend The Family:

http://www.defendthefamily.com/_docs/resources/1139692.pdf

It's pretty evident that he's obsessed with homosexuality. I would imagine that he's been pretty influential with the Westboro Baptist Church as well.

WA-Moscow

I read a news article here on MSNBC in the past about this Lively character being somehow instrumentally involved in the passage of the Ugandan law targeting homosexuals. What a Christian he is; pretty sick if he thinks Jesus is proud of him.

Hes not a christian. He is someone who is using the religion of christianity to spew his agenda. We have the right to not accept the lifestyle, but in no way should we be hating the person. Big difference between the two.

It's all just really a shame because homosexual acts are just NOT A BIG DEAL. Jesus himself never explicitly says anything against homosexuality in the bible. And there are many things which the old & new testament prohibit which many of us do every day.

People that are straight know they are straight and people that are gay know they are gay. Whatever experiences you have in between are simply no big deal.

We human beings are very sexual by nature, and those comfortable with themselve can appreciate the beauty of both sexes and still know very clearly their sexual orientation.

The mighty ancient Roman Empire were the best example of this. They were very religious and very Christian, yet they were able to appreciate the beauty of both sexes. I'm not gay, I'm not straight, I'm simply human, nothing more, nothing less.

Again, Americans going to other countries and spreading our propaganda. Not much different than the Taliban, etc. is it?

Before too awful long I expect the gay hate of the 20th and 21st Century will be looked upon with the same abhorrence that the public executions of the 17th and 18th Century are looked upon now.

This hateful fool obviously did some speed reading through the life and teachings of Jesus parts of the bible.

So, how long before he gets caught cuddled up to some other guy? This often seems the end game with these single issue zealots.

And I thought a person is innocent before proven guilty before a court of law.

Damon wv'

"Hes not a christian. He is someone who is using the religion of christianity to spew his agenda. We have the right to not accept the lifestyle, but in no way should we be hating the person."

Throughout christian (and every other religion's history) there has been religious fueled violence. Why would you think it would be different now? I for one see the end of religion cpming soon. Hallelujah!

MB-1047454

Unborn and not having taken a breath, it's a POTENTIAL child, NOT a child...

A fertilized chicken egg for example... Do you request two chickens over easy and pancakes???

What about the rights of the unborn child?

Well if corporations can be people, why not a fetus too? Why not a zygote?

If you were in a burning building, and saw a crying baby to your left - and a refrigerator with 50,000 viable embryos to your right (or what you would call 'unborn children') which would you save? The 50,000 right? I mean, why just save one baby when you can save 50,000?

Great point, Purnell - I agree 100%.

I'm so tired of this "I'm a victim" because people don't accept homosexuality. No one is trying to stop you from sodomizing each other, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it. This is the danger of allowing homosexual marriage. Once it is a law, if you speak out against it, it will be considered hate speech. People of Faith must speak up now and prevent this from being taught as okay or normal to our children. Sticking your penis in another mans rectum or mouth is not normal. Again, no one is trying to stop you from this vial act but acceptance of it is a different matter completely. Religious Leaders have an obligation to condemn sinful / deviant behavior.

To the person that said, Jesus did not say anything against homosexuality…You don’t know anything about the scriptures. Look up Morality (Sodom & Gomorrah), the law of Chastity & adultery or where it says that Man should not lay with Man. Only sexual relations between a Man and his Wife are acceptable. This may be considered as Old Fashioned / Outdated by Hollywood and the Liberal Media but it is still God’s Law. You have the freedom to follow it or not, but you don’t have the right or ability to choose the consequences if you don’t.

I love the first amendment, but why is it so difficult for us to distinguish between religion and hate. The fact that this guy gets to earm millions for his hate speeches and writings is fine with me, but I'm furious that he pays no taxes because he claims to be a church!

I suppose if I got an internet minister's diploma, I could go buy a coffee house too and open it as a church. Sell coffee and hate of all things conservative and call it religious dogma and not only be protected but earn all that money tax free. I think I'll open the church of liberality. All welcome except those that want to ban abortion, those who don't support full equal rights for all, those who are anti-immigration and those who are opposed to public education.

“While Lively has half-heartedly tried to distance himself from the death penalty provision of the bill, he still considers it the ‘less of two evils’ as compared to recognizing the humanity of LGBTI individuals or permitting their speech or advocacy.”

WOW. Unbelievable.

The problem has always been people dont practice what they preach or follow their religion when it comes to someone different..Treat thy neighbor as you would thy self"

If you dont believe in God chances are your ancestors did, gay people mostly dont believe they coexist..they can say anything they want about their neighbor.

In Massachusetts, we have been trying to limit Lively anyway we can. Groups have been working to uproot his church and ministry from Springfield. He simply isn't wanted here and we believe he is poisonous.

Wouldn't this world be a little better if people stopped using their religious beliefs to spread hatred on others? This man is a Christian terrorist and should be ashamed of his NAZI like tendencies on the citizens of another country. What a disgrace for us Americans... we say we are the land of freedom, but then that must only apply if you are straight and follow this person's christian faith. Thankfully, this person does not SPEAK for the entire Christian religion or we would look like bigger morons.

We will never progress as a society until the idiots that believe that being gay is a 'lifestyle' are long gone. How anyone could possible think that gays choose to be persecuted, maligned, or worse, is beyond me. These same same idiots, whose unfortunate omission of brain cells tell them that a 2000 year old manuscript is more accurate than the scientific knowledge and common sense development that we have had over those same 2000 years are insane. Our only hope as a nation is that these simple-minded folks will die off sooner than later, and intelligent, thought provoking members of society will take their place.

I bet that homophobic televangelist is a fag himself.

the African AIDS epidemic has unique features. Africa has a primarily heterosexual epidemic. HIV also has spread more quickly in Africa, where different strains of the virus predominate. And AIDS-related diseases--and possibly disease progression itself--differ in Africa, too.

www.aidscience.org/Science/Cohen288(5474)2153.html

Happy42xxx you are a very sad, uninformed and uneducated person. homosexuality is not even remotely the cause of the continued AIDS epidemic in African countries

OOPS I read the headline and i thought it was about Al Sharpton from MSDNC.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/03/13/Al%20Sharpton%20Slut-Gate

Rob-851600

If I recall this whole issue about HIV being used for payback started off with a gay man who was running around spreading the HIV infection as much as possible as payback for his emotionally broken heart. Lets look at Steven Paul Boone of Canada who has just had his charges upgraded to murder for his spreading HIV to 4 of his gay lovers knowing he had the virus and not telling one of them

There are plenty of cases of heterosexual males who intentionally mass-spread HIV to women, which you would easily find if you're ignorant ass did some research.

I wonder how many Christians wake up every morning thinking "Man, I can't wait to find me a homosexual today so I can tell em their gonna burn in hell" Unfortunately the ignorant can't see this is nothing more than liberal propaganda and has zero weight to it

Look up "Westboro Baptist Church", "Rich Santorum", the reverend in this article, hell the list goes on and on.

You should do some research and try to sound educated before you go and post a long ignorant essay of a comment that no one is going to fully read, I know I didn't.

Why is it when a Christian evangelical is caught spreading his message of hate he's is all of a sudden not a true christian? This is not an isolated incedent by the christian representitives it'is a common occurence.Some people would consider this a terroristic act,like the majority of christians do when a muslim cleric spews the same type of hate,yet when one of thier own does it ,and it happens all the time,they are not accused of inciting terrorism?

The simple answer is, because he's christian he can't be a terrorist because the bible says it's so. Try entering the 21st century

Hmmm. If the people of Uganda choose to pass a law by democratic vote - then that becomes the basis of a lawsuit against an American for breaking international law in expressing his own opinion?

Is it against international law to express your opinion on any matter? Is that a part of the Patriot Act? Should it be?

ZK13....my sentiments exactly.....I was thinking of replying to that long-drawn out mess myself, but I don't think I would have been as nice as you were.

I love when people try to justify abortion as "not killing" it's just hilarious.

A fertilized chicken egg for example... Do you request two chickens over easy and pancakes???

That is funny! However do kids hatch when they are born? Nope they grow in the womb. Did you know the heart starts beating 5 days after conception?

I am pro choice but I can accept the fact that an abortion is killing life. If you can't see that your just too blinded by politics to understand life anyway.

We have political parties that preach the same ... so who are we to judge .....

AND ... when did telling it like it is ... become "Leaning Left"???

And ... I don't see Fox leaning right or left ... I see them leaning forward into stupidity ..............

Just a side thought. Has anyone else noticed how the descriptor of a person who lives an "alternate" lifestyle keeps getting bigger. 1st it was gay, then gay and lesbians, then LGB's, then LGBT, now LGBTI, In 50 Years itll be the LGBTIUMYPDNSTAHCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ62966017 community. Jeez cant we just quit saying hey we need a label to be accepted, and just say were all human, live and let live. Race, gender, handicap, sexual orientation, and on and on, dont matter. If there is a god, itll be his place to judge if theres anything wrong with what or who u are doing.

LarBear...

Unborn and not having taken a breath, it's a POTENTIAL child, NOT a child...

A fertilized chicken egg for example... Do you request two chickens over easy and pancakes???

Obviously you are unaware that eggs you buy to eat are not fertilized egg... And for your Info, only fertilized eggs will developed.

cooch...

Why is it when a Christian evangelical is caught spreading his message of hate he's is all of a sudden not a true christian? This is not an isolated incedent by the christian representitives it'is a common occurence.Some people would consider this a terroristic act,like the majority of christians do when a muslim cleric spews the same type of hate,yet when one of thier own does it ,and it happens all the time,they are not accused of inciting terrorism?

The simple answer is, because he's christian he can't be a terrorist because the bible says it's so. Try entering the 21st century

So you are saying all Christians are the same... Like all Muslim are terrorists? And another thing... so we understand each other here... Can anyone claim to be a christian even though they are not? If I were to go out and beat up a bunch of Christian and claim myself to be an atheist, would that make all atheists terrorists?

Drezz,

No ignorance is too strong. There will always be idiots who think people can change who they are.

DamonWV

He is not christian? who gives you the right to say that?

If he was Muslim, you would have hammered the religion of islam before even reading the article.

I love it when the American Taliban like this obviously in-the-closet Rev get their asses handed to them ... I hope the Plaintiff's prevail and bankrupt this bigoted fool.

"Jesus himself never explicitly says anything against homosexuality in the bible." which would seem to imply an agreement with how homosexuals were treated in Jewish law.

"And there are many things which the old & new testament prohibit which many of us do every day."

So because people sin every day, that makes it ok? People commit murder everyday, is that ok now as well? The Old Testament prohibitions you are probably refering to are the ones that were specifically for the nation of Israel before the coming of the Messiah. Much of the Mosaic Law was specific in regards to time (before Christ) and place (the nation of Israel). Once Jesus came, he fulfilled the law and much, but not all, of what the Old Testament Law prohibited became permissable.

"The mighty ancient Roman Empire were the best example of this. They were very religious and very Christian..."

Simply not true. Until Constantine became Emperor, Christianity was illegal in the Roman Empire, and Christians were regularly persecuted. They were sent to the Roman Coliseum to be killed by Lions, crucified, beheaded, and killed in many other gruesome manners. The Edict of Milan in 313 AD legalized Christianity. Rome fell in 476. So for the first 300 years of Christianity, it was a persecuted religion punishable by death. It only became legal in the Roman Empire near the end, about 150 years before Rome fell. So it is factually wrong to say the Roman Empire was very Christian.

thenight

And I thought a person is innocent before proven guilty before a court of law.

There is absolutely no question about whether he did in fact encourage people in Uganda to do whatever they could to get rid of homosexuals, that isn't the issue. This is a lawsuit not a trial.

The issue is whether the judge will decide if this warrants a judgement on behalf of the plaintiffs. According to Lively the lawsuit is "completely frivolous" He contends that encouraging people to murder homosexuals is completely frivolous. Personally, I think they have a great case to take all of his assets for years to come.

“While Lively has half-heartedly tried to distance himself from the death penalty provision of the bill, he still considers it the ‘less of two evils’ as compared to recognizing the humanity of LGBTI individuals or permitting their speech or advocacy.”

WOW. Unbelievable.

What is truly unbelievable is that you took the word of an activist against the pastor as the truth rather than his own words in which he advised them to "focus on rehabiliatation not punishment."

Anyone defending Scott Lively saying he's innocent until proven guilty, don't. As someone who has followed his <i>career</i> I can tell you the man is a parasite, and while we may have freedom of speech in this country, what he incited in Uganda goes well beyond that.

With freedom comes responsibility because words have power. and it's about time someone held Lively responsible for his words. Especially considering how many people have been harmed and even killed after he spewed his propaganda, propaganda that he's profited from financially.

Besides, he went well beyond giving speeches and actually advised Ugandan leaders behind the bill. So someone needs to hold him accountable.

Another reason for a foreign nation to hate us.

Matthew....what is most unbelievable is your head is stuck so far in the sand that you are ignoring all the other news articles and postings from people who know this wizard and you are still defending him. By the way.....how exactly does one 'rehabilitate' a gay person? I suppose you are one of those people that extole that 30 minutes with a stripper would cure any gay man of his 'lifestyle'. What is wrong with you?? How, in this day and age, with as much scientific (oops....sorry, I know that's a dirty word to you bible thumpers) knowledge that we have gained over the last 2000 years, you can still believe that being gay is a choice, is just beyond the thinking of a reasonable person. You need some new books....

".how exactly does one 'rehabilitate' a gay person?"

LOL - Very simply, actually ... just PRAY THE GAY AWAY!!!! Works like a charm according to Bat-@!$%# Bachmann and her equally bat-@!$%# crazy and VERY happy hubby, Marcus!

vfeinstein.....LOL! By the way....prayer does work. Just ask my mother-in-law from Germany. In 1934, she prayed for something bad to happen to Hitler, and just 11 short years later (after exterminating 15 million Jews), something bad did happen to him! How do you explain that (I'm sure you got the intended sarcasm there)?

I think he should be taken to court for preaching hate toward other human beings. not just against gays but likens them to nazis last I heard gay nazis did not start WW2 and I think they would be highly insulted. Or we could drop him off in afganastan with the taliban .

be that as it may I here alot of people saying people are judged only by God , now we know cause we are all humans and I see you all and myself at times judging . what I dont get is how any human being can speak for God? I would be interested to talk to anyone who has sat down and had a conversation with God face to face . who of course was not a pyschotic socialpath, or a scizophrenic ect.

Yeah I saw some of this on Vanguard, he did not tell them to kill them and did say they should be rehabilitated. When asked by the reporter all he had to say is he didn't condone the death penalty, but, it was not up to him to make the decision for their laws.

I know they showed some kind of porn movie about a couple guys fisting each other and the people were truly disgusted with what they saw. That's when the the preacher over there went on a rampage about the death penalty for the homosexual activities.

If the gay communities are so distraught over this why don't they get together and go to Uganda to protest this stuff? It seems they are distraught enough to drop-jaw all in America where they are protected, but, not so much as to go there and say anything. It is to my hope that when they find this crap to be frivolous, then, he can turn around and sue them.

Whining arse people are just that; whining all the time about something or the other. I don't care what another person does, if I don't agree with others doing the things I deem not good, I just don't hang out with them. Well you know what they say, the liberals have double standards cause if not they wouldn't have a standard at all.

happy said:

If the Ugandan's gays would not choose to follow this lifestyle then there would not be so many cases of AIDS in Africa...you would assume that stopping the spread of a deadly disease would be a more worthwhile effort but apparently not - "it's OK to be gay" - not

The majority of AIDS cases on the African continent, and particularly in Uganda, are being spread by rogue militia and other paramilitary bands, misguided Christian fanatics like Joseph Kony (who thinks taking a 9 year old girl for a bride is okay) and the other military and mercenary factions left after the African World War. These roving military bands cross country borders, attack noncombatants and peaceful villages, burning houses, raping and killing the men, raping and killing the women, and kidnapping, raping, and selling the young women and children as sex slaves to countries all over the world, including our own. Children are also brainwashed to become child soldiers in the ongoing African conflict.

These militia soldiers don't care if they have AIDS,and they do't care who they give it to. Their life expectancy is not that long, and they are constantly killing each other in factional infighting. They live hard, quick lives and have sex with whomever, wherever, and whenever they want, whether it is raping an unwilling male at gunpoint in a village they have just raided and burned, or forcing a man to rape his mother by holding his child at gunpoint, or raped an infant (there was a particularly horiffic incident of an 18 month old who had been raped with a gun shoved into its body. The baby died, of course.)

And this business of raping people and forcing captives to rape each other has nothing to do with sexual gratification; it's about intimidation, power, dominance and control. Practically all rape is about that, whether performed here in the Sates or another 'civilized' country or in the African countries. And raping a child is the ultimate control/dominance trip because it requires little effort for complete and total power.

Organizations like Doctors Without Borders are on the ground in these countries,trying to spread information about communicable diseases and STD's and giving the non-combatant civilians information on how to protect themselves and treat the ones already infected but it's difficult because they too are being attacked, raped, and killed by these rogue militia factions. The African nations have been trying to bring the attention of the Western world to their humanitarian crisis for a long time, but have been largely unsuccessful.

So demonizing gays as the cause of the AIDS problem in Uganda is wrong. The unrest in the region, the out of control militia (and many of the country's own military) is as much to blame, as is also the low status of women in the region, the compete lack of infrastructure like hospitals and schools, adequate clean water for bathing, drinking, cooking and sanitizing, the lack of information available on communicable diseases and lack of people to teach that information all contribute.

(FYI--I know about all of this because I had to do research for a novel.)

Darrell,

It's interesting how these claims about Lively only saying gays should be rehabilitated came out after he others involved in the conference at Kampala started receiving backlash here in the U.S. At any rate, he personally advised the Ugandan leaders that created the bill so...

And while it's nice when some of us have the privilege to "just [not] hang out with" someone we don't agree with, not all of us share that luxury.

Rob, I believe you missed the point entirely, the article is about an american meddling in Africa and getting called out on it.

The bill called for the death penalty for certain homosexual acts such as when gay people with AIDS were caught having sex...but not the same for heterosexuals, hmmmm very Christian.

24 million people in Africa are infected with HIV, the majority of which are heterosexual and have no access to healthcare, education etc. With no access to healthcare and education they don't know they are infected, can't find out and don't even know what it is but this preacher helped form a bill to kill a certain type and percentage of people whom he thinks is immoral.

More bullsh!t from christianity. The religion that supposedly values human life.

Chasman, it is my hope that you will soon have that luxury. I can't imagine having to hang out with people I didn't like. Here I always thought that would be a choice and now have been proven wrong. Dang it I thought I had at least got one thing right.

I don't know about the before deal, just what I saw on Vanguard. Well if they have proof he was doing these things, then, it is something he will have to deal with.

You have a nice day there Chasman.

The mantra of the modern Christian, "you took it out of context" and "s/he isn't a REAL CHRISTIAN (tm)".

Darrell, I believe Chasman was referring to people in Uganda (and other oppressed areas of the world) not having the "luxury" of avoiding persecution. It's not a choice for everyone ... I'm sure they would love having "first world problems", like having to sit through dinner with an insufferable bore.

It is my hope that they will someday have that luxury.

The moral crime is that he exported his and similar like minded of the christian taliban into countries where there is no system of law. There isn't any legal protection for LGBT community.

He cited on Rachel Maddow last night that of all the members of the Senate Arms Committee, he of all of them had the most knowledge of the countries in Africa. That being said, he also must know how they solve clan issues with machetes, child slavery and homosexuality.

He tried to back peddle some of the worst parts but Maddow kept his feet to the fire. In his own head he is blameless for the hanging deaths of homosexuals and the arrest and confinement of HIV/AIDS patients.

I'm sure there will be more grisly details of his help and guidance in Africa. His own book will damn him.

That is funny! However do kids hatch when they are born? Nope they grow in the womb. Did you know the heart starts beating 5 days after conception?

Lmao, wow. Can you be any more silly looking? Did you know that on Day 5 after conception there are only 16 cells so far in the Blastocyst? Care to tell me which of those CELLS is a beating heart? I didn't think so. Less Bible, more Biology class will save you from looking stupid next time.

So please, take your pro-life bullsh*t somewhere else and quit trying to make things up to push an agenda. There are enough ignorant people out there doing it already.

DamonWV

WA-Moscow

I read a news article here on MSNBC in the past about this Lively character being somehow instrumentally involved in the passage of the Ugandan law targeting homosexuals. What a Christian he is; pretty sick if he thinks Jesus is proud of him.

Hes not a christian. He is someone who is using the religion of christianity to spew his agenda. We have the right to not accept the lifestyle, but in no way should we be hating the person. Big difference between the two. Post 1.2

Damon;

(heavy sigh) Such ignorance. The man is a Christian, just as you are. He identifies himself as a Christian-just as you and every other Christian does. In effect, Christians stand in a huge circle pointing fingers and declaring another isn't a True Christian(tm). Your 'Holy Book' tells what signs identify a Christian. There isn't a Christian on the planet. Sadly, myriad Christians and Islamists (to name two) are hefty legislative and physical threats to a wide range of people.

Secondly, Christians spew an agenda all the time. It can be 'leading one to Christ', to calling for Crusades, to creating legislation giving Christians (sometimes only male Christians) 'special rights'. Some examples are; Colorado's Amendment 2 of a few years ago. Others are the enslavement of females to her womb-reducing them to brood mares. Now, this can be to the point of refusing medical treatment in the case of saving the mother's life or for cases of rape and incest. It can be to the point where medical services are legal but possibly not offered in a state (because 'Loving Christians') will kill them or cause great bodily harm.

Thirdly, there's no 'Gay Lifestyle'. A heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual person doesn't select their sexual orientation-no more than one selects their sex, skin color, attributes, hair color, parents, or location of birth on the planet.

Whether you like the idea of bisexual individuals, or homosexuals (gays and lesbians) doesn't matter. It's no different than the choice of soft drink or whether soft drinks aren't something a particular person enjoys so doesn't drink them.

Sadly, many Christians and Islamists (to name two) are legislative and physical threats to others. It is good to see other adherents of the religions standing up to their cowardly and hypocritical brethren.

Many Christians, including you, continue to blame innocent victims while ignoring the teachings and tenets of your Holy Tome. There are ramifications and repercussions to the dogma. Instead of identifying the source of the problems (God) you blame the victims. ALL are mere victims in a pointless play hitting their marks and spouting their lines as was scripted about 14 Billion years ago when 'He' shat the universe into being.

Some folks like chitlins and okra. For me, just the smell of the things are nauseating (the stench permeates a small warship even with bulkhead doors open. I didn't rail about them or try to get them off the menu. Others were free to eat them as I was free to not eat them.

I'm heterosexual, males don't interest me. Others are homosexual while still other folks are bisexual. Their business and they're no threat to anyone.

This is silly.

There has to be jurisdiction. You can't just sue people in U S courts because you don't like what they did in a foreign country. The case needs to be filed in Uganda, under their laws, for anything that happened there.

Under the logic used in this story, can an Afghan cleric sue Obama in Federal court for what the American soldier did in killing civilians in Afghanistan?

I think we have too much of 'creative lawyers' trying to bring lawsuits in the wrong venue, clogging up our legal system.

Bob Martinez

Damon wv'

"Hes not a christian. He is someone who is using the religion of christianity to spew his agenda. We have the right to not accept the lifestyle, but in no way should we be hating the person."

Throughout christian (and every other religion's history) there has been religious fueled violence. Why would you think it would be different now? I for one see the end of religion cpming soon. Hallelujah!

There has been more killing of the masses of people by atheism than religion. Dont be wishing for the end of religion, you take God out of the equation then people no longer have any purpose in life. May as well go out on a killing and raping spree because in the end, there is nothing to worry about. Religion keeps many in check with accountability.

That is actually inaccurate if you are referring to the Communists (Stalin, Castro, etc...) Communism replaces the worship of a god with the worship of the state and labels it atheist. In effect, the state becomes the focus of worship and is venerated in much the same way that a god is. Atheists worship nothing, nor do they kill in the name of atheism.

My grandparents fled Communist Cuba in the early 1960s, and as Catholic as they are/were, even they don't try to throw this line of argument at atheists.

Evilbeagle

That is actually inaccurate if you are referring to the Communists (Stalin, Castro, etc...) Communism replaces the worship of a god with the worship of the state and labels it atheist. In effect, the state becomes the focus of worship and is venerated in much the same way that a god is. Atheists worship nothing, nor do they kill in the name of atheism.

My grandparents fled Communist Cuba in the early 1960s, and as Catholic as they are/were, even they don't try to throw this line of argument at atheists.

A quote from another person in another thread.

In any case, I've got a news flash for you: the greatest evils in history usually resulted from the denial of God, not the pursuit of Him. In the last century alone, more innocent people were murdered, tortured, and enslaved by secular ideologies – Nazism and Communism – than by all religions in recorded history. And I have the documentation to backup that statement.

Grab a copy of the Guinness Book of World Records and turn to the category "Judicial," sub-heading "Crimes: Mass killings." You'll find that carnage of unimaginable proportions resulted not from religion, but from institutionalized atheism. Guinness reports, "The greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one sovereign against another is the 26.3 million Chinese killed during the regime of Mao Zedong between 1949 and May 1965 (total of 16 years)."

The Walker report published by the U.S. Senate Committee of the Judiciary in July 1971 went one step further. It placed "…the total death toll in China since 1949 (total of 22 years) between 32.25 and 61.7 million." For our purposes, I think it's reasonable to accept the figure of 47 million killed in China as a compromise average for the 22-year span mentioned in the Walker report.

In addition, Adolf Hitler murdered six million Jews during the holocaust, which was performed for ethnic cleansing and false economics. Hitler was a social Darwinist, slaughtering people who didn't fit his concept of an Aryan master race. That's why he also sent an untold number of gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally impaired, and other "undesirables" to the gas chambers.

In the USSR, Nobel Prize winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn estimated that state repression and terrorism took over 60 million lives from 1917 to 1959 under Lenin, Stalin, and Khrushchev. However, the worst known per-capita genocide of all time happened in Cambodia under Pol Pot. According to Guinness, "More than one third of the eight million Khmers were killed between April 17, 1975 and January 1979."

Let me add to that mix some other recent atheist rulers who slaughtered vast numbers of people: Kim Il-Sung of North Korea dispatched approximately 1,600,000 people; Josip Broz Tito of Yugoslavia killed an estimated 1,072,000 people; and Nicolae Ceausescue of Romania put to death 60,000 folks.

In contrast, a recent comprehensive compilation of the history of ALL HUMAN WARFARE IN RECORDED HISTORY, "Encyclopedia of Wars" (a three-volume set by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod), documented 1,763 wars, of which only 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what the anti-religion bigots, such as yourself, consider to be "most" really amounts to LESS THAN 7% OF ALL WARS in history involve religion. Most wars are fought for power, territory, and resources, according to historians.

Furthermore, here's a comparative tally pertinent to our discussion: the total number of deaths estimated to lie at the feet of Christianity throughout recorded history is approximately 17 million. This number can be derived from totals presented in the "Encyclopedia of Wars" along with various websites, and includes ancient wars, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, various European wars during the Middle Ages, and even witchcraft trials. For the sake of argument, let's assume that the other two predominant religions (Judaism and Islam) are responsible for an equal number of deaths because there is no known documentation for those estimates. That brings us to 51 million deaths attributable to the three predominant religions throughout recorded history. Even if you add to that total the deaths attributable to obscure religions, you'd still be hard pressed to match the 120+ million death toll achieved by atheist leaders during only the last century.

Therefore 17 million deaths attributable to Christianity throughout all of recorded history (or 51 million estimated deaths attributable to all three main religions) pales in comparison to the 120+ million deaths attributable to atheist leaders during just the 20th Century alone!

The obvious conclusion here is that atheist leaders are far more brutal, sadistic, and savage on a far larger scale than religious folks have ever been. The FACTS speak for themselves...you just have to examine them with an open mind. Otherwise, ignorance and anti-religion bigotry will continue to cloud your thinking.

You might want to ponder the words of Will Rogers, who once said, "It's not the things we don't know
that gets us into trouble. It's the things we know that just ain't true."

Oh, by the way, I'm not Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I'm a Deist who doesn't belong to any particular organized religion. I'm just trying to combat the ignorance supporting anti-religion bigotry on this website.

@ Stoney

He is not a christian, im sorry but someone who does the atrocities he has or wants done is not a follower of Christ. Someone who is saved, and truly has the spirit of the Lord in them, would not do such things. There are false teachers, people who can look like angels of light, but still be filled with the devil to say.

Im not sure what your talking about with enslavement of females. You will have to elaborate your point.

gay lifestyle is just that. People may desire to be with same sex, but they still make the choice to date and want to be with them. Which im fine with. I could care less if 2 people of the same sex want to do what ever, but there is too much history , proof of once gay , now have gone straight people who turned their back to the life style , married and have had kids and families.. Some are happy, and some may not , but they still made the choice. The statistics on same sex lifestyle are staggering on all the detrimental things that come with it.

Also the Dogma you talk about is a very sharp 2 edged sword spewed from the other side as well.

And again, blaming the slaughter committed by Communist leaders on atheism is like saying that they did it because they had black hair, or blonde hair, or some other trait. They didn't do it because they were atheist, and in fact, their brand of "atheism" hardly goes hand in hand with atheism in practice by the millions of us that exist in the world and do so both peacefully and morally. Remember, in those cases, the worship of a god was replaced by worship of the state/leader - it's not even true atheism, but rather, a change of focus for fanaticism. Atheism, in other words, is not the reason people commit atrocity and never has been. So, while these people had the means and the sick minds to kill so many, it wasn't "because of atheism". That's just a misleading lie, and I have to defend the ignorance being spread by your statement because it is twisting the truth and has resulted in a lot of bigotry from the religious people that cry when you point out the killing done in the name of god, but then point a finger back and blame every atheist on the planet for the actions of people who were atheist in name only.

However, religion is a reason that people commit atrocities, and this has been the case for all of known human history. It doesn't matter what the religion, with the exception of a very few, all major religions have openly killed in the name of their god. Big difference between killing for a misguided political ideology and killing for an intangible being. Neither is better than the other, and there are no innocents.

Sorry to keep editing, but a quarter of my own family took a bullet to the head thanks to Castro and his buddy, Che Guevara. They didn't die over religion or non religion. They died because they opposed a political system that is inherently tyrannical.

Sorry again. I keep thinking I have finished a thought when I haven't. I've got a very sick dog on my hands so my attention is on her as much as it is on this.

Tyranny isn't limited to any one group. There are many Christians in America that would be happy to go all Mao on atheists and anyone that doesn't believe in their version of a god. Because they simply can't just go around killing people (abortion clinic bombings aside), they are actively trying to legislate others into a position of "second class citizen". It is perfectly understood that the average Christian is not necessarily like this, but they aren't the vocal ones, are they? If they were all as fanatical as some of these hateful Christians, I wouldn't have much of a family left to talk to because they are all Catholic, or many friends. However, if Christians feel threatened by other religions and atheists, it's only because they have put others on the defensive, and given the way they seek to worm their way into the private lives of people in an allegedly free country by trying to warp the government into only granting them freedom of religion, it is everyone's duty to push back and make things fair for all. I say this as an atheist, but I also speak for other religious groups that Christians go out of their way to marginalize.

Here's an actual quote taken from Scott Lively:

I am a Bible-believing Christian Pastor and as such I oppose homosexuality and the now global movement to legitimize it in society. The Bible teaches that homosexuality is s sin specially condemned by God as an “abomination” destructive to both individuals and society (Leviticus 18:22f). It is the only sin which prompted the destruction of a city by fire and brimstone (Genesis 19). It is the only sin chosen to epitomize the “reprobate mind,” meaning the mind given over completely to darkness and deceitfulness (Romans 1).

My job as a pastor is to preach this truth without apology or hedging so that people who suffer with a homosexual “orientation” can repent and be delivered from their bondage (Exekiel 3:18), and society can be spared the damaging consequences of affirming that sin (Jude 1:7). Many homosexuals from the very beginnings of Christianity have been healed of this affliction (1 Cor 6:9-11).

I also preach against the hatred and violence that some direct toward homosexuals. That too is a sin (Matt 22:39).

Wouldn't two gays with aids having sex, spread the disease? Isn't that a crime against humanity? Mugisha is intentionally misrepresenting the truth to try silence a contrary message. This isn't about recognizing humanity, and no one has said gays aren't human. Homosexuality isn't a person, and preaching against it isn't a hate crime. It's people like that who make me wish homosexuality went back into the closet.

Gays don't have the monopoly on AIDS. Straight people get it and spread it too.

Inciting violence and discrimination against any particular group IS a hate crime. Wrapping it up in religion doesn't excuse the type of bigotry that gets people killed and marginalized as humans, which is what this sort of behavior does. Honestly, I don't really care someone else's god thinks, especially when I see that it's doing people harm. That same vile being has been used to justify slavery, murder, and the maltreatment of women too, and I can't respect that. A lot of people can't, won't, and shouldn't. That god is a serious harm to society.

Bottom line - don't like homosexuality, then don't take part in homosexual acts or hang out with homosexuals. If you leave people alone and worry about your own life rather than go out of your way to screw up someone else's, they won't get in your face and demand the rights that they deserve as human beings. It's very simple.

@Evil

Yes, but the death penalty in Uganda is for gays, who have aids, having sex with each other. Isn't that a cause of the spread of disease?

Inciting violence and discrimination against any particular group IS a hate crime.

What statement, other that the Mugisha's, do we have that exactly pinpoints any place where Lively directly incited violence against gays? He was for treatment, not the death penalty.

Wrapping it up in religion doesn't excuse the type of bigotry that gets people killed and marginalized as humans, which is what this sort of behavior does.

Give me a break. Your statement is the equivalent of saying that because a math teacher was killed because someone said: Algebra sucks! Any opinion denouncing mathematics should be labeled as hate speech. Yes, I genuinely believe there is a such thing as hate speech, but I do not believe every case is hate speech, simply because gays want to label it as such. Face it, eventually everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Honestly, I don't really care someone else's god thinks, especially when I see that it's doing people harm. That same vile being has been used to justify slavery, murder, and the maltreatment of women too, and I can't respect that.

Come off it. In reality, greed, ambition, are just as much a cause for those things happening as religion. What gave religion a bad name in the first place, was the people, who for ambition, used it as a guise. Why not blame the catholic church for the practices of indulgences? What event can you pinpoint God being directly responsible for? If anyone's a bigot here, or prejudiced, I think it's you.

Bottom line - don't like homosexuality, then don't take part in homosexual acts or hang out with homosexuals.

What makes you think I do? If I don't, how do I hear about it? Oh yeah, that's right, all the gay articles, which I had nothing to do with, popping up in the headlines every other day.

If you leave people alone and worry about your own life rather than go out of your way to screw up someone else's, they won't get in your face and demand the rights that they deserve as human beings. It's very simple.

I got a better Idea, how about gays stop trying to push their lifestyle on other people and just accept the fact it's not normal to be gay! That's right, I said it. It's not. It's never been scientifically or medically been proven to be normal. They're not asking for rights as human beings, they're asking for homosexuality to recognized as normal. Homosexuality serves no functional purpose when the entire purpose of sex is reproduction. Homosexuality is a sin, by virtue of the fact, it's breaking God's law, just like lying, stealing, or adultery deal with it. Liars, thieves, and adulterers have to, why are homosexuals exempt?

ItIs...

I suppose that there are no straight people in Uganda that have and spread AIDS? Is that what you are saying? Surely you don't believe such nonsense. I'm not saying that gay people don't have or spread AIDS, but to sit there and claim that they are the only ones that do so is ridiculous.

As for Lively, he is likening these alleged, gay only activities to genocide. I'd say that's inciting violence against them by using terminology that quite purposely hits close to home for many people in Africa. Sugar coating this idiot's words to seem as though he is just freely practicing his faith and is so innocent when he is taking every cheap shot he can in order to have diseased, often uneducated people his god doesn't approve of put to death is a pretty low blow. I'm sure that he's okay with straight people spreading AIDS.

Religious institutions are corrupt and self serving by their very nature, from the Catholic church to the Westboro Baptists. I don't blame a god for the actions of its followers because I don't believe in a god. Can't really hate what isn't there, but you can hate the image that people have created and continue to use in order to further their own interests and actively harm or oppress others.

You have a right to not associate with homosexuals or indulge in homosexual activity, but you don't have a right to silence anyone. The reason homosexuals have had to get into people's faces is because they are treated as second class citizens. You yourself have just expressed the very bigoted attitude that has forced them to come out and protest, stand up for themselves, and demand equal rights, which they wholly deserve. Your religion has no bearing on a person outside of it.

Homosexuals are not made, they are born, and that in and of itself makes them normal, particularly when you consider that 900 other species of animals produce offspring that exhibit the same preferences. Regardless of that fact, homosexuality exists, and what people do behind closed doors is none of your concern. Before you go on about them holding hands in public or acting like any other couple that isn't going for it in a full on PDA, get over it. We don't hide the fact that we are straight for anyone's benefit, and they shouldn't have to hide the fact that they aren't for anyone's benefit.

If you are going to try the old and tired argument about sex being for procreation, then you shouldn't just come down on homosexuals. My husband and I have sex for pleasure and pleasure alone. I have my tubes tied because I don't want to procreate and neither does he. You should come down on people who have sex when they know they CAN'T have children. By that logic, a lot of people shouldn't have the right to have sex or get married.

I take a steaming big dump on god's law. Homosexuals are not hurting anyone and have a right to live as they choose because no one is subject to your god's law unless they choose to be. You have no right to impose your religious beliefs on anyone's life. Again, live as you choose, and let others be. They have no bearing on your life, and I'm sure your precious sensibilities aren't too damaged by seeing articles about them that you have the right not to read.

@Evil

I suppose that there are no straight people in Uganda that have and spread AIDS? Is that what you are saying? I'm sure that he's okay with straight people spreading AIDS.

Regardless of orientation, what justifies the spread of AIDS? More to the point, homosexuality has no functional purpose, so how is the spread of AIDS justified with homosexuals?

I'm not saying that gay people don't have or spread AIDS, but to sit there and claim that they are the only ones that do so is ridiculous.

Where did I make that assertion? No really, if you're going to start pulling stuff out of your butt, I'm going to hold you to it.

As for Lively, he is likening these alleged, gay only activities to genocide.

Homosexuality has statistically been linked to the spread of the AIDS virus, so that doesn't exempt gays, who quite possibly, might have been more responsible because of their sex lives, which have no functional purpose other than sex.

I'd say that's inciting violence against them by using terminology that quite purposely hits close to home for many people in Africa.

David Kato's killer was his homosexual lover. Wait for it....No true scotsman would ever.

Sugar coating this idiot's words to seem as though he is just freely practicing his faith and is so innocent when he is taking every cheap shot he can in order to have diseased, often uneducated people his god doesn't approve of put to death is a pretty low blow. '

Lively visited Uganda 2 years ago. I didn't sugar coat his words, I presented them without bias. Your problem is that you'd rather read into them than read them.

Religious institutions are corrupt and self serving by their very nature, from the Catholic church to the Westboro Baptists..

A religious institution is a thing, not a person. Things aren't inherently corrupt people are. Quit playing guilt by association. The nature of religion is service to God. More to the point, to help man understand his desire for God. Spirituality is a basic human need; homosexuality is not. And Westburo? Please! Let's not even go there. A radical faction is simply that. If you're going to link Christianity to westburo, you might as well link all Caucasians with the KKK.

I don't blame a god for the actions of its followers because I don't believe in a god. Can't really hate what isn't there, but you can hate the image that people have created and continue to use in order to further their own interests and actively harm or oppress others.

Who says God isn't there? Their interest or God's? If I remember correctly Lovely's position is taken from the "word of God" I also remember God burned an entire city of homosexuals in the bible. God is God. Got a problem with it, take it up with Him.

You have a right to not associate with homosexuals or indulge in homosexual activity, but you don't have a right to silence anyone.

Tell that to Glaad next time they demand an apology for someone speaking their mind. Here we go again: gays have every right....so it doesn't work both ways?

The reason homosexuals have had to get into people's faces is because they are treated as second class citizens.

I didn't realize that sexual orientation was a basis for any kind of citizenship in the United States. Get in people's faces? Yeah right, more like hide their orientation and blame society.

You yourself have just expressed the very bigoted attitude that has forced them to come out and protest, stand up for themselves, and demand equal rights, which they wholly deserve.

Why? What has homosexuality ever done for society?

Your religion has no bearing on a person outside of it.

So no one is obligated by any sense of imperatives? Why do we have laws again?

Homosexuals are not made, they are born, and that in and of itself makes them normal, particularly when you consider that 900 other species of animals produce offspring that exhibit the same preferences.

I've heard, 'It's a boy', I've heard; 'it's a girl', but I've never heard a doctor smack any baby on the butt and go, "it's a, it's a, it's a gay!" There is NO scientific or medical evidence that conclusively backs any theory on people being born gay. I always love when a homosexual offers the animal justification for homosexuality. Should we start eating our own kids next? How about abandoning them? Let's start flinging poo while we're at it.

Regardless of that fact, homosexuality exists, and what people do behind closed doors is none of your concern.

When gays clog up the headlines, on a near daily basis, that's in my bedroom.

Before you go on about them holding hands in public or acting like any other couple that isn't going for it in a full on PDA, get over it.

You're writing this script, but it's worth note, I don't like PDA's.

We don't hide the fact that we are straight for anyone's benefit, and they shouldn't have to hide the fact that they aren't for anyone's benefit.

Give me a fricken break, straight or gay, is a preference for having sex. You can't show either without having it!

If you are going to try the old and tired argument about sex being for procreation, then you shouldn't just come down on homosexuals. My husband and I have sex for pleasure and pleasure alone.

In the presence or absence of procreation, you still can't deny, that the purpose of sex is transference of the genetic material from Father to mother via penetration. Pleasure is a side effect. This is evidenced by the fact that even in the cases of forced sex, a female can still get pregnant. Are you saying rape victims enjoy it?

I have my tubes tied because I don't want to procreate and neither does he. You should come down on people who have sex when they know they CAN'T have children. By that logic, a lot of people shouldn't have the right to have sex or get married.

Sex isn't a right, it's a privilege which requires time and opportunity. The main purpose, overall goal of sex, is to produce children. Are gays infertile? No, so what's their excuse? I can have respect for people who are physically unable to have kids, but that doesn't excuse those who are perfectly able and live a life mainly for sex. Other than sex what purpose does being homosexual serve? Even in the cases of infertile, which make up a small minority, they're normally trying to have a baby. You're not infertile, you forfeited your ability.

Homosexuals are not hurting anyone and have a right to live as they choose because no one is subject to your god's law unless they choose to be. You have no right to impose your religious beliefs on anyone's life.

I have a first amendment right to freedom of speech. I don't buy the homosexuals are victims garbage. Homosexual groups are bigger bullies than anyone else. What about all the careers they ruin through psychological pressure on the people who are anti homosexual, demanding apologies? No, they act like manipulative Gremlins who show their true colors when they think they have the upper hand.

Again, live as you choose, and let others be. They have no bearing on your life, and I'm sure your precious sensibilities aren't too damaged by seeing articles about them that you have the right not to read.

Who died and made you ruler of anything? Your insane rant is the main reason why I think homosexuality should still be classified as ego-syntonic mental disorder.

Don't put words in my mouth either. I never said that the spread of AIDS was okay. I'm just wondering why only homosexuals get singled out for doing so, but not heterosexuals, as they too, are statistically linked to the spread of AIDS. They do it too. You implied that heterosexuals don't get or spread AIDS in Uganda. Who's giving the disease to straight people then? I know it's not something you'd like to admit because then it makes it a bit harder to be bigoted, but AIDS is not a gay disease. Unless a person, gay or straight, is proven to be running around spreading it maliciously, then punishing people for having it is actually a very sick thing to do. Educating people to have sex responsibly, however, would probably work better and fall in line with the teachings of that guy, Jesus, that you people claim to venerate.

Face it, Lively is little more than a hate peddler. You can't sugar coat his words because they are hateful, malicious, and evil. But then, in agreeing with his views, you are a hate peddler too.

Moving onto your backwards views of sex in general. At its core, sex is indeed for procreation, but that is not its sole function in a person's life. It is also for pleasure, intimacy, and an expression of affection from the need to scratch an itch, to the deepest of loves. It doesn't need justification, and as long as people are educated to do it without spreading disease and with respect for their partner, who cares why people do it? It does not need to lead to babies, nor should it always lead to babies, as having babies is the choice of the individual. To single out and attack homosexuals for enjoying something behind closed doors which has nothing to do with you, and ignore the fact that millions of straight people use birth control in and outside of marriage and choose not to have babies, is pure and malicious hypocrisy. Driving a car is a privilege. Having sex is a choice that people can and do make because they have a right to enjoy their bodies. Just because a person has sex with no view to procreate doesn't make them perverse, nor does it mean that they "live for sex" and have some sort of problem. Yes, I did forfeit fertility. Best decision my husband and I ever made in our lives. No one is telling us that we can't continue to enjoy each other or be married, but like homosexuals, we will never produce a baby. If you want to tell me that I don't have the right to make a choice about what I do behind closed doors, it will make you sound a bit less hypocritical, but I'll also tell you where to go and continue doing as I wish. How very white of you to respect the infertile, by the way. *eye roll*

Your use of the rape card, by the way, is nonsensical. Sex is the choice of the adult. Forcing someone to have sex is never acceptable. Your comment regarding rape has no validity or place in this discussion and shall not even be taken seriously.

When gays clog up the headlines, on a near daily basis, that's in my bedroom.

This is just funny. Gays are in your bedroom for being in the news. Really? You do realize that you have a choice to ignore the headlines you don't like. I just took a look at MSNBC's front page, and I'm seeing news about basketball, Mr. Universe turning 100, a shooting at a French Jewish school, the Afghan massacre, and Mitt Romney. There's not one mention of homosexuality there. I'm not sure what news source you regularly use, but I can't help but snicker that it's in your bedroom and all about gay sex.

I don't like PDA's out of anyone of any orientation. They are rude. I'm just mentioning that because I'm not sure if you understood the point I was making.

I find it funny that you distance yourself from the churches as though they haven't been created and get continued support from those inherently corrupt people. You can't separate the two. Sorry. It's also pretty hilarious that you would sit there and say that the Westboro freaks shouldn't be included, though they call themselves a Christian faction, however radical, and you share many of the same views on homosexuality. I never claimed everyone was like them, and I don't recall mentioning the KKK. I am claiming that no matter who they are, Vatican or Westboro, they are all self serving and corrupt institutions. Not a single one of them can be held to some standard of purity and goodness.

So, you were at Sodom and Gomorrah? LMAO. What IS your secret to such a long life? Sorry, but your statement about that nearly made me spew coffee through my nose I laughed so hard. On a more serious note, the "word of God", which is really the word of a lot of long dead people, means absolutely nothing to me and a lot of other people. It doesn't have to mean anything. Just because you care doesn't mean others have to share your views. I would take up a lot of things with god if he existed, but so far, my I've had no proof or indication of the existence of a god, so I can't exactly invite the dude to tea in order to take anything up with him. No one is obligated to believe what your outdated book of contradictions says about homosexuals. You're welcome to it, but don't force it on others because your arguments from religion about homosexuality mean absolutely nothing to a person that doesn't believe as you do, and therefore, are invalid.

You know what basic human needs are? Food and shelter. Spirituality is not a need. Plenty of people have perfectly happy and fulfilled lives without it.

Getting back to homosexuals - your comment about animals hardly deserves response because you are just being willfully ignorant of the point being made. The rest is hard to determine because you SHOULD know better living in this day and age. I don't see doctors smacking a newborn's butt and shouting, "It's a straight boy!" or "It's a straight girl!" either. People are born gay, and there is plenty of scientific evidence for it. However, even if people actually chose to be gay, it would still be none of your business unless you make it a habit to watch people have sex.

I never said you could not exercise your right to free speech, but you are not the only one allowed to exercise your First Amendment rights, which is something you seem to resent. I'll give you that not every single statement a person makes merits a public apology, but it should also be understood that a bigoted statement isn't going to be acceptable to most people, so if a career is ruined over it, that's the responsibility of the bigot that made the statement. And you know, if a bigot is shunned and blacklisted for making bigoted statements, I'm cool with that. I'll be leading the charge.

Who died and made you ruler of anything? I come from a place of reason in which there are no hateful deities condemning people for being who they are. I'm not out to classify your bigotry as a disorder even though I find it as reprehensible as you do homosexuality. You have a right to your views. Just as you have a right to disagree with homosexuality, people have a right to disagree with you. We also reserve the right to educate people to not be like you, so that your brand of bigotry will one day be as much a relic as the bigotry of the slave owning planter.

True its not a gay disease, but remember the early 80's when it was new, it was referred to as "the gay disease " , Why ? Because it seemed the majority who had it was gays. Why ? Because of the act of anal penetration is the harm it does with anal tearing, and fluids with the disease entering via the rectum in the tears. There is a much higher chance of transfer of the disease via Anal as compared to heterosexual sex. I dont blame gays for the spread of it. I myself contracted it through a dirty needle from a tattoo a friend did on me who tattooed other people at his house. I been lucky and lived over 20 years now with it and still healthy as an ox. With all that, I still oppose the gay movement, only to the point of me rejecting it, I dont accept it or find it acceptable behavior. BUT with that being said , I do not hate, nor do i condemn, or bother gays. I have them here around me at work, and I enjoy conversation with them. But we never talk about anything that would offend eahc other.

DamonWV, I hope you will continue to keep healthy.

I can respect your position on homosexuality, even if I do not agree with it. As I have said from the start, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if acting upon that opinion impedes on the rights of others, harms them, or otherwise limits their freedoms, then I have a problem. It seems that many people think that only their religion, opinion, and prejudice should be protected by the First Amendment.

That said, gays do not have the monopoly on anal sex either. I am not denying that in the 80s, it was the homosexual community that was initially ravaged by AIDS, nor am I denying the fact that it is easier to transfer the HIV virus through anal sex than it is through other forms of penetration. However, we must also keep in mind that heterosexuals also engage in risky sexual behavior. Heterosexuals have anal sex as well, and it is still not the only way that the virus is transmitted in terms of sex. In other words, avoiding anal penetration, whatever your orientation, is not a guarantee against infection.

HIV/AIDS rates in the USA and UK have dropped or plateaued significantly among homosexuals and heterosexuals with strong campaigns to educate people about protecting themselves. My generation, growing up in the 80s, watched this unfold just before we were interested in boys/girls, and were armed with knowledge. If campaigns like this were introduced in places like Uganda, rather than basically doing a wholesale cull, things would be very different. Not everyone is going to avoid it for any number of reasons, and hopefully within our lifetime, there will be a vaccine or a cure, but until then, compassion for one's fellow man dictates that we should be educating people rather than punishing them.

Similar bills will be part of the agenda of Pope Richard Santorum I. Believe it.

Christian by name, does not mean Christian by action.

Very well said Rick. True Christians believe only God should judge a person, the rest should learn to love one another. Those others are only pushing their own agenda

I agree with the both of you but in Exodus there are some written instructions written to be taken against the gays, just saying, but do not do them please.

Exodus also says that I can sell my daughter to the highest bidder....it does, however, neglect to say what a fair price would be. I'm not exactly sure why anybody would focus on the part of the bible that talks about the evils of homosexuality and ignore most of the other garbage that is strewn throughout this out-of-date book.

For people that don't believe, it was out of date 2000 years ago. For us believers it won't be out of date until perhaps the new scrolls are opened.

"I'm not exactly sure why anybody would focus on the part of the bible that talks about the evils of homosexuality and ignore most of the other garbage that is strewn throughout this out-of-date book"

Sigh. All these nuevo-intellectuals "professing themselves to be wise, have become fools." Have someone explain to you how the Bible is organized (beyond simple chapter and verse), the two "Testatments"or covenants and the applications of the two, and which dispensation we currently live in. Then you might understand how your comments and opinions are just the same uneducated claptrap that you accuse of others.

LEARN SOMETHING, boys and girls, because whether you believe the book or not, billions of people world-wide live by its principles, thousands if not millions of laws are created throughout the world based upon those principles, and it obviously has a far-enough reaching grasp to be able to affect all of your lives either positively or negatively. If it didn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if you would learn a little about it instead of repeating the same old bigotry, you would realize that the derogatory statements on this forum are simply untrue.

CC....I am neither a 'nuevo-intellectual', nor am I 'professing myself to be wise'. I have, however, read the bible, and all parts of it, and am quite familiar with the many, many conflictions and idiosycrasies of this manuscript. I have LEARNED SOMETHING over the years, and whether or not I can impart my philosophy on you is irrelevant. Sure, Christianity has many followers, as does Hinduism, Buddism, Muslim, etc....even down to Scientology. That, in itself, does not make it either correct or the 'one true faith', as your followers would believe.

My problem with the book (and it's ALL parts of the book, not just the parts you wish to believe) is it is filled with non-sensical statements that taken in full, make no sense. There are references all throughout this manuscript telling me how I should be treating my slaves. Shouldn't there have been something in there that departs the wisdom of not having slaves in the first place? Regardless of how intelligent you think you are, you are still going to have to come up with reasons why such stories and the countless other anomalies exist in this book. And, to think you are smarter than I am just because you believe you 'get it' and I don't is completely narcisstic.

The Romans and Greeks were convinced that Thor, Zeus, and Mercury were all real gods, just as I am sure you believe in your god, even though there is not one shred of proof that he is real. I do believe Jesus was real, because we have a calendar based on his life, but again, no proof that he is the son of god. There is also no proof that god does not exist. However, common sense and science tell me that to believe in a mystic being in the sky is preposterous, so I have chosen that route.

You believe what you want.....but do not foist your opinions on me through political rhetoric or by claiming that you and your ilk know exactly what is happening on this earth and beyond. You don't know anymore than I do....you just want to believe there is more. Fine.....but keep your religion out of my business!

Steve,

Bravo!

@Stevefoo

However, common sense and science tell me ...there is not one shred of proof that he is real.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow said this:

"The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."⁹

Speaking of science, you do realize that the earth's size and gravity holds a layer of nitrogen and oxygen about 50 miles above the earth's surface?

If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.³ Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.⁴

Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. – Marilyn Adamson

How about water?

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.⁶

So, while yes, there may not be a mathematical axiom, or confirmed scientific theory, proving God's existence, there is certainly cause to believe in him.

My problem with the book (and it's ALL parts of the book, not just the parts you wish to believe) is it is filled with non-sensical statements that taken in full, make no sense.

So nothing in the bible makes sense:

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you -- Matt 7:12

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

I guess those make no sense either.

There are references all throughout this manuscript telling me how I should be treating my slaves.Shouldn't there have been something in there that departs the wisdom of not having slaves in the first place?

It amazes me how many critics of the bible cite the old testament. It's like none of you retained anything past the first five books. Have you read the book of Philemon? Also: Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. - Col 3:11

Regardless of how intelligent you think you are, you are still going to have to come up with reasons why such stories and the countless other anomalies exist in this book. And, to think you are smarter than I am just because you believe you 'get it' and I don't is completely narcisstic.

Just about sums up your entire post, but the saddest part isn't your ignorant rhetoric, it's that five others agreed with you. It's not that the bible makes no sense, it's that you're so prejudiced against it, in your vain search for the mastery of the universe, that you've denied God any chance to actually grant you the answers you seek. Face it, what have all your questions given you besides more questions? The first step to learning anything is too admit you know nothing. Perhaps, after you humble yourself, you'll actually find your answer. Until then, I think you've picked the latter half of your display name perfectly.

Steve states "in full" and you start picking quotes.

Comprehension fail.

Disinguous argument. You are proposing a lot of 'ifs' in your post. The thought process is sound, but not logical because you've allowed emotion to cloud your basic idea.

LOL I didn't know that AIDS was the gays way of killing people.

Wasn't there a news story about a year back about some STRAIGHT black dude who was having unprotected sex with as many women as he could knowing he had AIDS?

AIDS doesn't discriminate.

<< I dont think a law that is meant to prevent people with aids from killing other people is anti gay. What if it was your sister or mother or brother or friend being exposed to the virus by someone that just didn't care.>>

One, has nothing to do with another. Being gay doesn't mean you are spreading aids. Please learn something about the subject, before you post

Fact: Uganda has the 11th highest incidence of AIDS of all the countries in the world where statistics are kept.

Fact: The top ten are also all African countries.

Draw your own conclusions regarding the propriety of African countries passing laws to slow the spread of AIDS.

Onepoker, I thought the same thing. Anyone knowingly having AIDS and having sex without telling their partner about their illness should be condemned.

Perhaps instead of criminalizing an individual with AIDS having sex, they should try educating the people about how to prevent the spread of AIDS. Knowledge is much more effective than fear.

I still don't see how having AIDS has anything to do with being gay...

Onepoker

I dont think a law that is meant to prevent people with aids from killing other people is anti gay. What if it was your sister or mother or brother or friend being exposed to the virus by someone that just didn't care.

You are making this entirely all inclusive when you say "people", that's not what is happening here. The law is specific against gays, not against "all" of those who have aids. Yes, infecting people with the intent of such is a crime, being gay with aids is not. If the law encompassed all orientations while viewing the circumstances behind the reasons for passing on the infection, that is fine, but this is pure hatred. I think you know this as well.

Phenomenal112,

According to the CDC, statistics collected from the 40 states that ask how AIDS is transmitted compile into the following data:

Male-to-male sexual contact -- 23,846 cases

Drug injection -- 3,932 cases

Both of the above behaviors -- 1,131 cases

Heterosexual sexual contact -- 12,860 cases

Other -- 76 cases

So male-on-male sexual contact is a factor in about two-thirds of the reported AIDS cases. Any other questions?

If the bill was targeting all people with AIDS that have unprotected sex to stop the spead it would make sense Its not its targeting a specific group, gay men. There is a difference. They are trying to put out propaganda that only gay men spread AIDS. Africa has the highest incedients of rape of any other country. I think that is something to focus on to stop the spread.

So male-on-male sexual contact is a factor in about two-thirds of the reported AIDS cases. Any other questions?

So now look at the transmission statistics for Thailand or Uganda. Or for Africa in general.

You got questions? Didn't think so.

So male-on-male sexual contact is a factor in about two-thirds of the reported AIDS cases. Any other questions?

I have two questions.

First, according to those numbers male-male sexual contact accounts for about 56%. Since when did 56% become 67%?

Second, are you saying that your answer to a problem that involves transmission of a disease through homosexual activity is to just kill all the homosexuals?

One reason for the high rate of AIDS in Africa is that African men believe that sex with many virgin women will cure them of the disease.

EDUCATE!!!

@denver bill 2:

Why are you citing AIDS stats from the United States in relation to the issue in Africa? Are you really that ignorant that you do not know that the manner in which AIDS is spread in most African nations is not comparable to the United States?

While I'm not agreeing with anything this Minister has allegedly done, according to the article there is a bill coming up to the Uganda legislation to enact into law, and that this law targets gays. This man may have put his 2 cents in, but WHY are people targeting him, and not the people within Uganda who are backing and signing on this bill?

If he was involved in the writing of the bill, then he should held responsible for his part in it of course, but from what I'm reading in the posts here seems many people are blaming him exclusively. From what I've read about Uganda this has been an ongoing contraversy for many years.

Janine, I recommend looking at another news source or you can read the lawsuit itself. It targets Lively and the Ugandan leaders behind the bill's creation. MSNBC once again sums up a story while missing what I consider necessary details like that.

@Severed Head, Mike P. and Jarger -- I cited my statistics. I will leave it to you to cite yours.

@BH 77 -- The answer to your first question is that I stated male-to-male sexual contact is a factor in AIDS transmission. If you add the numbers for strictly male-to-male sexual contact and for male-to-male sexual contact combined with intravenous drug use, the sum is about .663 of the total, or about two thirds. The answer to your second question is no.

Denver bill - They're point was your statistics don't really fit the conversation about HIV/AIDS spreading in Africa since the mechanisms there are not the same as here in the U.S. like the infected are predominantly heterosexual in Africa. And the Uganda bill in question is not really about the spread of HIV/AIDS which you'd know if you'd actually read it.

Sorry denver, but the CDC data is really only pertaining to HIV/AIDS in the US. Yes - in the US homosexual contact is a major contributor to the spread of the virus. Not so in Africa. The vast majority of cases in Africa are caused by heterosexual contact. So maybe they should ban all sex in Uganda to stop the spread of AIDS? Other major causes for the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa include the higher levels of breast-feeding of infants by infected mothers, and heavy reliance on traditional medicine (which often uses unclean devices in scarification ceremonies).

denverbill;

The majority of AIDS cases on the African continent, and particularly in Uganda, are being spread by rogue militia and other paramilitary bands, misguided Christian fanatics like Joseph Kony (who thinks taking a 9 year old girl for a bride is okay) and the other military and mercenary factions left after the African World War. These roving military bands cross country borders, attack noncombatants and peaceful villages, burning houses, raping and killing the men, raping and killing the women, and kidnapping, raping, and selling the young women and children as sex slaves to countries all over the world, including our own. Children are also brainwashed to become child soldiers in the ongoing African conflict.

So demonizing gays as the cause of the AIDS problem in Uganda is wrong. The unrest in the region, the out of control militia (and many of the country's own military) is as much to blame, as is also the low status of women in the region, the lack of infrastructure like hospitals and schools, adequate clean water for bathing, drinking, cooking and sanitizing, the lack of information available on communicable diseases and lack of people to teach that information all contribute.

Thank you all for responding. I'm still waiting for the stats you are (not) citing.

Wow, okay, if you want stats you can read the Nelson Mandela/HSRC Study of HIV/AIDS at this link:

What you won't find in that study is anything comparing risk between heterosexuals versus homosexuals, you know why? Because it's not an important risk factor. You can infer this when you see that the risk to women contracting the virus is much higher than with men. If I have to explain how you can infer it, then this conversation is a waste of my time.

Chasman,

No need to explain. I already know the difference between an inference and a factual statement.

Strange that AIDS is so prevalent in a country that hates the gay orientation. I wonder who is really spreading the disease, hmmmmmmm.

The bible says a lot of things. It just depends on which page you're reading from.

Glock, are you an ididot? Love they neighbor, not @!$%# him.

Dying from your comment Glock,

Bridget, read Exodus, says a lot about things to do against gays. I agree with stonedog, the bible says a lot of things. You can love thy neighbor as long as they are not gay I guess. But, please not everything in the Bible is concrete and use your own judgement to make the right decisions.

Phenomnal112, the old testament is for history... I can speak of all religions, but mine practices from the teachings of Jesus and nowhere does he speak of homosexuality.

There are many New Testament references to the sin of homosexuality. Jesus does love us all, warts and all. However, some things are wrong and homosexuality is one of them.

And now, my flock, let us turn to the Book of Leviticus, where it is written that it's perfectly fine to own slaves as long as you buy them from neighboring countries. So where do you buy yours? Mexico? Canada?

Hilton, why you gotta hurt me like that? I thought we were down like 4 flats on a Cadillac?

Collapse in 3,,,,2,,,,,1,,,,,,,

I would like Christians more if they were like their Christ. ---Mahatma Ghandi

"What do you think of Western Civilization?"

"I think it would be a wonderful idea." - Ghandi

They have the obligation to stop the spread of Sodomy, which is a wicked, vile sin. I applaud Uganda! The New Testament condemns same-sex acts in the book of Romans. God will destroy America for it's treating of sodomy as if it's 'no big deal'. It is one of the WORST sins listed in scripture. WORSE than lying, gluttony, etc. There are degrees of SIN in scripture.

What' next, pervs? Pedophilia? The wicked Peds are trying to get their 'rights' and homos are opening the floodgate.

Mayhemisfunny - Did you know that if you participate in oral heterosexual sexual acts then you are also committing Sodomy? I have also decided to make you my slave.. the Bible says I can... enjoy some other things that YOU probably are doing that will ensure GOD destroys america. What a Tool.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Troll alert!

It is one of the WORST sins listed in scripture. WORSE than lying, gluttony, etc. There are degrees of SIN in scripture.

I must have missed the rankings in the bible. Where can I find them?

I guess I would have expected god to pass down the most vile sins first so we could start avoiding them right away. You know, some sort of top 10 list. I'm pretty sure this top 10 list would have included homosexuality and not lying.

BH77.....a top ten list....what a great idea! If only their god had thought of that, we would all know for sure what his stance on homosexuality was. There are so many pitfalls that must be avoided, maybe there wouldn't be room for 'gayness'. Of course, if we could eliminate the obvious....like praying to false gods and keeping Sunday holy, maybe there would be room for 'don't &#*& your neighbor in the &^#! But, I think you may be right....that would have been asking too much for a diety.

Mayhem, hun, are you such a naive yahoo that you think sodomy is limited to homosexuals? You sure do need to get out more.

Mayhem, you're just making s**t up to justify your own hatred and bigotry, and you're being called out on it. There is no such "order of severity" of sin in the Bible. And even if there WERE, it would be irrelevant because it's all made-up rubbish anyway. The Christian god is every bit as imaginary as Zeus, Ra, and Thor.

However, for those who still cling to their delusions, at least listen to what your supposed Savior teaches and follow it! I call your attention to Luke 10:25-28:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

You'll note that Jesus didn't correct the man and add, "... unless your neighbor is a dirty, sodomizing homo. Then you should hate him."

Chad is right (post #6). This is uust one of many of Jesus' teachings that his so-called followers utterly ignore.

bob_1003 -

I think Mayhem is waaaaay too vanilla for the exciting sexytiemz.

For those who claim sodomy also includes oral sex: I've heard that the definitions of sodomy that were used to ban it in the States held this to be true. However, in the bible (like it matters?) read the Song of Solomon. Yeah, because what they're doing there is strictly missionary position, over in 5 minutes, and didn't feel good to either one...

You gotta wonder about that. A book that has ancient erotica being the basis for the church, yet the church has outlawed almost everything said erotica describes. It's almost like putting a bunch of virgin men in a large group in charge of things was a bad idea. Wait...

Thinkforyourself, maybe if the law expert was &#$*#ing his neighbor in the @&#^$ then Jesus would have said, "Do this and stop &#$*#ing your neighbor in the @&#^$ and you will live." Maybe it just didn't come up in that conversation but did in the book of Romans. Think for yourself and quit repeating the anti-religion bigotry.

Itsabouttime, all of your bullet points were from the Old Testament, which Christians don't practice. If you had just a little knowledge about the subject you would know that. Go talk to the Jews about those laws. Christians fall under the New Testament, which specifically states that the OT was an allegory of things to come. It's about time you LEARN SOMETHING about which you are spewing, and you won't keep regurgitating the same old arguments like you are now. You can go to Merriam Webster dot com to find out want an allegory is.

CC GWRider -

I hear that crap all the @!$%#ing time: "Oh, the Old Testament was cancelled by the New Testament, blah blah blah." Well, why don't you take a @!$%#ing look around? For instance, all the bull@!$%# about the 10 Commandments being the basis for law? Why? For one thing, there are over 500 commandments, and somebody (nobody seems to know who) whittled them down to 10 for ease (already cherrypicking). But, why would Christians tout the 10 Commandments as some sort of basis for morality when, guess what, they're in the Old Testament?

Why should Adam and Eve matter? OT. Why should Noah or Jonah or Elijah matter? OT. Most of the @!$%# you hear spewed from Christian mouths is from the OT. Jesus himself (supposedly) said that he came not to break the Old Laws, but to enforce them. As in, the Pharisees were overseeing the laws for everyone else, but were hypocritical in following themselves and were inconsistent in punishments for laws and which laws they'd even punish for.

It wasn't until Paul (Saul) supposedly had some "visions" (what was he smoking, anyway? I wanna get me some of that good @!$%#) and said that Jebus had told him that the old laws no longer apply (funny how that works out, as the potential for evangelizing just went from Jews to Everyone; talk about making your market share grow). Except for sexual licensiousness, or whatever you want to call @!$%#ing outside of what Paul approved of (which, as above, was missionary position, man on top of woman, 5 minutes, and you better not enjoy it!). So wait, now masturbation's not a sin? Or is that still covered under "licensiousness"? How about polygamy? As long as it's man-on-woman, it's okay? Well, at least it's finally okay to plant two crops in the same field, and to wear two types of cloth at the same time. Seems like it would have been a great time to establish some street cred by ending slavery, though. And mysoginy. And imperialism. And...

You know what? @!$%# it. Here's the deal, come over and prove, once and for all, that god exists and is real and can really do @!$%# that you say it can and will and whatever else. Prove that it's real, prove it's the god of the bible. None of this equivocation, don't wanna hear "god is in your heart, you just have to listen," don't wanna hear any excuses. Prove it's real, or GTFO.

We do through the likes of Rick Santorum and Rick Perry. The problem is, we as American's can choose to shut them off and the promise of food and medicine doesn't sway people like they do in third world countries. I used to be a Pentecostal and married a Missionary's daughter. I have an inside knowledge of all of it. While on the outside it seems really well intentioned, our values and culture does not always translate into their culture and values.

@rossj503

Sad to hear. What made you stop being a Pentecostal?

Why do these American missionaries meddle in other societies?

Unlike Islam, which has a prohibition against proselytizing, spreading the gospel is a core tenant of Christianity.

Al Qaeda not withstanding since they are a military movement and not a religious one, the Muslims I've lived amongst were loth to even accept charity contributions from non-Muslims because of this prohibition.

Christianity has given us the Crusades, Inquisition, and the current Evangelical meddling in politics precisely because the book told people to go out and spread the good word.

.

rossj503-----these religious sects go to africa to ''enlighten'' the natives regarding ''gods word '' as to how they should behave and think. they are dealing with people who still believe in casting spells and putting a death curse on an enemy. the witch doctors still kill goats by gutting them and smearing the blood on the cursed to drive away the evil spirit. this is fertile ground for missionaries to spread their christian form of voodoo. maybe they could teach them to drive away the evil spirits with ''holy water'' thus sparing the goat a cruel death. the long suffering african needs someone to save them from those who profess to be attempting to ''save them''.

Why do these American missionaries meddle in other societies? I have lived in a number of other countries and have seen the damage these people do. They are another reason that our country is not held in very high esteem abroad and we are viewed as sticking our noses in where they don't belong.

Why???? Because they are busy-bodys, that's why. And then of course they whine and cry when they get into trouble or in a tight spot when going into these hostile, rogue and lawless countries. And of course expect our SEAL teams to come get them and couldn't care less if any trying to rescue them get picked off in the process.

Lastly, 'Gawd' forbid (pardon the pun) they should ever do something productive for OUR Country. Can't have that.

Missionaries have been screwing up the world for centuries.

The majority of AIDS cases on the African continent, and particularly in Uganda, are being spread by rogue militia and other paramilitary bands. So demonizing gays as the cause of the AIDS problem in Uganda is wrong. The unrest in the region, the out of control militia (and many of the country's own military) is as much to blame, as is also the low status of women in the region, the complete lack of infrastructure like hospitals and schools, adequate clean water for bathing, drinking, cooking and sanitizing, the lack of information available on communicable diseases and lack of people to teach that information all contribute.

Organizations like Doctors Without Borders UNCF, and other faith-based ministries,no matter what faith you espouse, are on the ground in these countries, trying to spread information about communicable diseases and STD's and giving the non-combatant civilians information on how to protect themselves and treat the ones already infected but it's difficult because they too are being attacked, raped, and killed by these rogue militia factions. The African nations have been trying to bring the attention of the Western world to their humanitarian crisis for a long time, but have been largely unsuccessful.

Carl,

I cannot belong to anything that goes out and condemns people to hell based on their own interpretation of the bible. I watched people turned away from the altar because they "wouldn't change." I watched as we sat back condemning an entire world to hell while we rejoiced in our salvation proclaiming that every other religion had it wrong and they were going to hell. When I questioned the teachings, I needed prayed for. When I encouraged my Sunday School kids to seek their own faith and answers, I was told I was wrong. I took a step back and realized a fundamental truth. Each form of Christianity condemns the next as being the false teaching. Everyone has to be "right." It's a race to see who can get the next recruit and who can convert the next soul. Love is conditional based on if you follow the teaching or not. If you fall in line with what the denomination states as a truth. If not, you are going to hell. That's not a life I can believe in. That's not a life I believe anyone should live in. That's not faith, it's coercion.

Sorry. Can't help being amused by all of the non christian spewings. Are all these remarks not an example of the same kind of hatred, simply aimed in reverse? So tell me. How are your non christian hatreds bode any different from the ones you now spew towards religions and religious people? And I haven't seen mention of anything wrong with the people of Uganda who go on facebook and other sites, pretending to be American or Canadian, in order to form purported romantic attachments and bilk widows and single lonely women out of their money. What say ye now? Anything wrong with that? Methinks some of you talk out of both sides of your mouths. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

PWV....the difference is, you will never see me show up at your door telling you that my way of thinking, which is decidedly aethist, is the path to salvation and light. Keep your out-dated, invisible being in the sky logic away from me, in ALL aspects, and maybe my rebellious natural defenses will subside. And....while you are at it, please get your inflammatory 'In God We Trust' off of my money!

ProudWV, so in order to criticize one thing that we find to be wrong with a particular way of thinking we have to criticize every single thing that is wrong with every other single thing in the world as well in order to maintain some level of "fairness" or something? Or could it be that this article was on a particular topic and we are commenting on the topic at hand, i.e. religiously inspired (masked) hatred and bigotry.

Also, I didn't see anything in StephenW's post that called for outlawing religion and killing those who practice it. Apples and oranges, my friend.

Sounds to me, Like you are casting your share of stones. Does that mean, you are sinless?

....that would also make you the Anti-Santa, the Anti-Easter Bunny, the Anti-Unicorn.....

I bloody hate unicorns. Trying to be all cute an stuff. Grrrrr...

This man does NOT represent Christians nor is he the personification of some higher Christian ideal. Christ taught us to "hate the sin but love the sinner". That is sometimes hard to do without appearing to hate the sinner. But then, if it was easy everyone would be a Christian.

sutleyar,

I abandoned religion years ago, but when I was trapped and given little choice but to have it poured down my throat, I was taught that Jesus didn't do hate of any kind. So, hate the sin but not the sinner is a way of hiding bigotry behind religion without seeming overly aggressive about it. That a person could hate a part of someone's individual make up makes about as much sense as hating the fact that someone is blonde, and assuming they are going to go to hell for it. It's just a cop out.

People get down on atheists, other religions, and other, more forward thinking Christians for the backlash against this attitude, but when you look at the big picture and see how alleged Christians have used the Bible in order to justify all sorts of atrocity, it should be easily understood. This is no better than justifications for misogyny, slavery, and witch burnings.

I was raised Catholic but gave up on Christianity years ago due to the blatantly un-Christian actions of those around me who quoted the words and preached them but didn't actually practice them. I am now a practicing pagan.

cheezeweggie, you must be refering to the koran, not the BIBLE!

Nope... It's the Bible... Read it sometime...THEN decide if you really want to do everything it says. Or if you want your parents to...

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version (KJV)
 18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Under the old covenant that is true. Under Christ's new covenant that is not true. Aren't you glad Christ came along to give us all a new way to salvation? Seriously, if people are going to quote the Bible they need to read it first.

It's both! Star Trek has fewer holes than the Bible and all you have to do is look for them when you have enough knowlege of the subject. Fanatics tend to look past them or patch the conflicts up with explainations, but they're still there.

Aren't you glad Jesus took care of that on the cross? He gave us life under the new covenant paid for by his blood if we just accept him. We serve an awesome God!

Thats the trouble with the bible, kuran, and all the other "books"about god, or the cosmic muffin, or whatever thing you want to believe in....people take it way to seriously...these are stories, written by men, who say that god told them these stories. Most of the things written about jesus were not written down for hundreds of years after he died. Why? Because they thought he was coming back soon....

Believe what you want, but dont take all these stories for gospel.....doh!!! I said it anyway....

One question, how goes a guy "dying for our sins" in any way abolish those sins? I never understood the logic behind that. Maybe because there is none.

I love the "no, that's the OLD testament" argument. I believe it's Matthew 5:17-18 where Jesus says he has not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. That not one jot or tittle of the law shall change until all of heaven and earth have come to pass.

As far as I can tell... yep, just looked out the window to confirm... earth has not yet come to pass. I can't speak for heaven, though. Seems to me that by Jesus' own words the old testament laws still apply. I suppose you could argue that Jesus did replace the sacrificial laws, but certainly not the moral ones.

Also, if the old testament is now obsolete, what about the 10 commandments? Do we still have to follow them? Or the 600+ other commandments?

BH77, to further your point, you'd think that an omnipotent/all perfect god would have gotten it right the first time. I mean, having an old and new testament appears to suggest that god is badly flawed and unable to get his crap right the first time around. Pretty non-omnipotent of him.

EngEsq, that goes all the way back to the beginning of the bible. In Genesis 1 and 2 you have somewhat conflicting creation stories. So if the bible is the inspired word of god, he did a poor job of inspiring. In chapter 1 it says that god was happy with his creation of man, then in chapter 6 god was not happy with his creation of man.

So an omniscient, omnipotent creator has advanced knowledged of how his creation would turn out, has the ability to make the creation turn out any way he wants it, but chooses to make a creation that will disappoint him; one that, despite the claim that he loves each and every one of us as his own child, he knew in advance that he would send a large majority of his children to the fiery pits of hell to tortured and burned in the flames that do not consume for all of eternity because of decisions made based on the brains that he created us with? Yea... thanks, "dad".

Oh, yea, and many of those children, he killed them himself. Instead of letting them live out their lives and giving them the chance to turn to him, he was just like "You're a naughty little boy." and splatters their guts with his godly finger.

I think the bigot would object at being "nailed to the wall", as it may turn out that he likes it.

Not the way I would have it done. ;)

Missy Miyashiro, I couldn't agree more. It's hard to believe that in this day and age, people do bother holding onto these outdated, bigoted attitudes encouraged by religion. When will people learn?

Really? Always? Maybe we should persecute the religious. Go to war to stop them. Maybe we should take their money so they can't organize. Sounds to me you've managed to become them without an organized organization. Man is the root of evil. We are sinners by nature. Many religions are not tolerant of others outside their system. But to say all are the source of evil is as hateful,unjust, and beligerant as you accuse them. I'm sure you're a kind and good person. That is possible without Christ. Salvation isn't..

You're the one talking about persecution. I'm talking about people gaining common sense. The reason there is backlash against your beliefs is because you people keep trying to shove them on others and use them to justify atrocity and bigotry.

Sutleyar,

Missy never claims they're the source of 'evil.' Secondly, she's clearly talking about the institutions, not the people. Finally you mentioned earlier about christ teaching 'hate the sin but love the sinner." That's actually a recent mandate of the Catholic church which other judeo-christians seem to have adopted. From what I understand, I don't think Christ is ever stated as 'hating' anything in the bible.

spar2cuss

Did you string a bunch of words together hoping it might make sense??? It didn't work....

I'm thinking he meant to say let the freak show begin! At least that's what I got from it.

Yeah...cool story, but guess what? No one is obligated to care, and it's right that they shouldn't, as those passages do nothing but excuse hate and bigotry.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Colossians 3:22

advocating slavery are you?

As a gay Christian, I find it amusing that you are quoting from the King James Version of the Bible- a version commissioned by a flaming gay man who placed his lover in the highest eschelons of the Monarchy, a version commissioned to enforce the notion of the divine rights of kings and by fiat to remove all other versions used to that time.

GrandSlam

I am very strongly Spiritual, that's why, I, do NOT believe in the Bible... I, notice most who claim to believe

in the Bible, actually use the Bible to justify their Beliefs... If one Believes the Bible, the Biblical God is a

Hypocrite and Mass Murderer... The Bible and the Biblical God is not something/someone, I, can believe

in... Any Honest look confirms the Bible is written by Men, not God, or Jesus... I, would have to abandon

common sense to buy into such a FEAR based book...

It's quite possible our minds are not capable of knowing what God is, or is not... Or, even if there is a God,

except in Human belief... Beliefs are NOT FACTS...

"You know"? Most of us here don't believe in the devil anymore than you believe in spaces between your sentences. Go take a missionary trip to Uganda, you're not winning any battles here.

Hell is a real place, and unfortunately it is easily accessable. When I read all of the blasphemy spewed on these threads I get excited! I know the Lord is coming back sooner than a lot of people are ready for. Folks, when you die there are only two ways your soul can go. It is easy for us to pass judgement on others and difficult to believe that judgement will be passed on us. Take one minute today to be still and listen to God speaking to your heart. I am praying for you all.

I'm sure the oh so Christian pleasure in the idea of people that don't believe as you do burning in hell gets you and a lot of people all hot and bothered. This is why a lot of people don't take you or your beliefs seriously given the hypocrisy involved, Rick in VA.

It is not a pleasure in knowing that hell is a real place reserved for those who do not accept God's grace. It is a saddness that it so easily avoidable by simply surrendering ourselves to Jesus' gift of salvation. This life is such a short span of time, but eternity is where my real life begins. I fully understand what Jesus mean't when he said "only those with the faith of a child will inherit the kingdom of God". Why is it that as we grow older and gain more knowledge and "wisdom", that we talk ourselves out of the belief in God and his word? Evilbeagle, I hope that you find what you are looking for in life and wish you much happiness. At the end road, we all will account for our decisions.

This life is such a short span of time, but eternity is where my real life begins.

That is so sad. Probability suggests that when you die you simply cease to exist. Who you are is not bound up in a soul, but is a construct of your brain (biology). Once that biology ceases to function, you cease to exist. So rather than wasting this one shot in life planning for eternity, why not make the most of it?

Agreed, Chuck from Asheville,

King James also tweeked a few passages when he re-wrote the Bible.

A wonderful example of his misogyny is the story of Phoebe. In original text, Phoebe was a priestess, and ministered to many. James changed the text to say Pheobe was a nurse and succored many. This proved to be a useful tool to keep women out of the pulpit and in the kitchen.

These stories are being published because of the coming election. Obama supporters are stirring up two bases of his and their followers - homosexuals and feminists. They're using lawsuits and laws to strike fear in those who stand up for the Truth. This is the same strategy they used decades ago - making themselves look like victims. They are only victims of their own lusts and the sin they wholeheartedly seek.

This particular lawsuit and movement in the U.S. is intended to send the message of silence to those who speak out against the perversion of homosexuality. They attacked Christianity many years ago and have been infiltrating select denominations to promote their aberrant sexual choices. Like cancer quietly grows, they have been settling in and spreading sin among those who know God does not approve of homosexuality.

It is not possible to be Christian and be a homosexual. Those who claim this are liars. They also believe people who stand up for the Truth are obsessed with homosexuality. No, we aren't obsessed, the homosexuals are obsessed with it. We are committed to the Truth and will follow Jesus Christ forever. As long as we have air in our lungs, we will tell people about the horrors of homosexuality and the Eternal Judgement those who practice it will have to endure. Forsake sin, forsake homosexuality and seek Righteousness, seek the forgiveness of sins, seek to be set free from the Devil's grip.

Rick in VA, I was simply citing what you wrote:

When I read all of the blasphemy spewed on these threads I get excited! I know the Lord is coming back sooner than a lot of people are ready for.

One can spin that to mean that you're all excited about your salvation, but with it, according to your belief, comes hell for others that your god has decided deserve it. So, really, I don't accept this sadness you feel as genuine.

As for finding what I am looking for, job done. While there is always room to grow and learn in life, I have never been happier since I abandoned the chains of Christianity. I hope others will one day see how destructive religion is, and learn that there are ways to be happy, moral, and sane without the threat of a contradiction-ridden and hateful deity to keep them in control. If more people were logical and reasoned, we would not have many of the issues brought on by the fanatical that we do today.

You are welcome to your beliefs, and I could care less how you live your life as long as you aren't actively hurting another person in doing so. Just keep them out of my life, as well as out of the lives of homosexuals and other groups that your god finds fault with. None of us really care about your hateful religion.

We are committed to the Truth and will follow Jesus Christ forever.

That is logically impossible.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Gee, what do you know, the bible is in direct contradiction to itself.

Glad to see that you're in possession of "the Truth."

Rick in VA said:

Why is it that as we grow older and gain more knowledge and "wisdom", that we talk ourselves out of the belief in God and his word?

It's what you do, not whose name you do it in, that really matters. But if you profess to believe one thing and do another, you obviously don't believe what you're saying and if you don't believe yourself, why should anyone else?

I was detained as an 'illegal' by ICE. Immigration lost my adoption paper 18 years after I was adopted and I couldn't give them a copy because I was never told I was adopted before Dad and Mom passed away in a car accident. While I was in the deportation camp there was a chaplain there who was Catholic, but after dark, he fondled us and raped us just like the guards did (a violation of biblical law, even though it wasn't a violation of US laws.) I turned my back on Christianity and became a practicing pagan.

FoJC-5212351

"They're using lawsuits and laws to strike fear in those who stand up for the Truth."

If we have to sue you @!$%#s to keep this country from becoming a fascist theocracy, goddamnit, you will go broke. Religion existed as a means to control the masses and with the growing acceptance of science, equality and freedom to believe as we wish, fewer and fewer people are becoming sheep to be taken advantage of. It shows right now with this evangelist having to go to a third world country to enforce his homophobic agenda. Religion today have nothing but lies and violence to influence the masses which is why you're a shrinking minority. You can say that the majority of the US are Christian, but most of those who call themselves Christian aren't considered saved or worthy of forgivness by the fundamentalists attempting to take over the US. We're taking our country back to keep it the way the Founding Fathers intended.

Man: "But how did I end up in hell?! I was a pious, righteous man!"

Devil: "Lets see...ah, there it is. 14 years ago someone said 'damn you' under their breath. Yeah, it only takes one."

Caption: "Truth: Nobody gets into Heaven."

While you're burning in the hell of your own making, Rick, I'll be laughing my way to the next life.

the american indian culture referred to gay people as the ''others''. they believed the gay indians to be sent to them by the spirit world as a combination of man and woman to teach them that we have both sexes in us and can learn from each other. we thought of them as savages but time has proven that they had a lot to teach us about how to live in peace with one another.

Yes they did granny, that's why they slaughtered the other tribes whom weren't affiliated with theirs.

You do realize that don't you. It's a human trait as is any other, most finds it repulsive and others tend to be drawn to it.

So live and let live, if you don't like it just don't hangout with gays and no problem. Some of the problems gays bring on themselves by trying to get everyone to accept who they are. Hey if you're gay and like it; be gay. Just don't try to get everyone else to like you, cause some or most will not. Hence the reason for gay communities.

DARRELL-----yes there were warring tribes but most were peaceful. if you read the history of french indian wars you will find some of the torture tecniques were not indian but french. as for gays being accepted -that is far down the list of their wants---they want to not have to fear physical violence against them ---they want equal protection under the law (guaranteed by the constitution) to marry and to enjoy liberties accorded to all citizens. they want your liking them to be irrelevant to their having their lawful rights . acceptance is a 2 way street---they do not seek acceptance from people they do not accept.

Concerning the birth control issue. When 99% of your followers say they have done it then it time for the religion to conform to it's followers morals and not the other way around. Besides, what do a bunch of celibate old men running around in dresses know about birth control anyway!

Not to mention their pilgrim shoes.

like radical Muslims worship the Koran

Or evangelical Christians worship the Bible.

In the court of public opinion the First Amendment typically only exists to protect perceived minorities and anti-establishment types. Folks, it is perfectly legal to preach that a certain lifestyle is "evil" or "good" or what-have-you. Where it gets into trouble is when you start preaching criminal activity (violence, typically) against people who live that lifestyle -- but there's nothing here showing that occurred.

Oh, and for those of you who posting all the rotten things that religion has created, let's balance that with the good things that have come directly from it, such as the United States of America, the Constitution, Christmas and everything associated with it, Mother Theresa, the Dalai Lama, many of the greatest works of art and architecture ever created, Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and on, and on. Oh, and those little fish stickies people have on their cars, those are cool....

really? religion created the united states--please explain. since many of the early settlers of this country were fleeing religious persecution i fail to see your connection. the men who drafted the constitution were of many religious sects and privately benjamin franklin admitted he was not a christian (letter to friend). thomas jefferson had no religious affiliation. the beauty of the constitution is it allowed for all religious groups and a choice and right to follow no religion at all.

The first amendment does not protect speech meant to incite violence.

The First Amendment does not grant the right to organize a hit against other people.

Really?-1812852, All those 'good' things hardly out weight all the hate and centuries of killing done in religions name.

such as the United States of America,

Unless fleeing religion is an acceptable cause, I'd say this was not motivated by religion, but rather taxation without representation.

the Constitution,

Yep, with it's separation of church and state clause and the whole issue with many of the founders being religiously ambivalent.

Christmas and everything associated with it,

It's a holiday taken from pagan rituals for the winter solstice before being taken by christianity and then by materialism. My christmas has zero to do with jesus. People like to celebrate, and I'd be fine if it were a winter solstice holiday instead.

Mother Theresa,

I'm sure she would have been equally charitable without religion.

the Dalai Lama,

Ok one point for you.

many of the greatest works of art and architecture ever created,

Equally important are secular art works and architecture. The reason so many are religiously motivated is the accumulation of vast wealth by the church (typically by squeezing if from the poor). Castles, villas, and great art works exist sponsored whenever there was a concentration of wealth.

Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.,

I'm sure he would have been a great man without religion as well. Further, without religion slavery and racial subjugation would not have lasted as long in all likelihood.

the Mormon Tabernacle Choir

Who?

Jefferson - "I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be..." (see for context)

Franklin, in the same letter you reference -- "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see" (see Van Doren's biography for context, disassociating himself with any particular church but embracing religion itself)

Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state? I've read it and re-read it looking for that, since I've heard about it so often, but strangely enough it seems to be either missing or reallllly well hidden.

Suppose I could dispute the other points but frankly I'm bored. These conversations are pointless anyway, nobody (including me) considers anyone else's perspective, we just defend our own.

really ?-1812852------if you question their intention was to separate church from state and keep their powers separate just what religion do you suppose the evangelicals would have you recognize as thee official religion of this country. i think we know what they intended.

"Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state? I've read it and re-read it looking for that, since I've heard about it so often, but strangely enough it seems to be either missing or reallllly well hidden."

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Thomas Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

I hope this answers your question.

As Ghandi said about christians " I like your Christ but you christians are not very Christ like".

I don't think anyone is more hateful than atheists. Your comment is proof of that.

jj1962--- the late madeline murray o'hare would seem to support your statement. my experience with atheists is quite different. atheists don't attempt to deprive you of your right to your beliefs but insist on the right to their beliefs. evangelicals are over zealous in their attempts to make christianity the official religion of the united states. that's the rub----there will never be a official religion of the us-that is constitutionally guaranteed--thank god (pun intended).

JJ, if you are posting your comment in my direction, I hate to inform you that, like most people on here, you have just jumped to a conclusion based on no facts or information at all. Good for you. How you came to the decision I'm an atheist based on my comment is beyond me. That would be like me stating you're a complete idiot based on your post. How foolish would that be? Then again...

And if there is a full version of this seminar which makes him sound better, why hasn't he posted it in order to clear his own name?

There is kevnc, look up vanguard and Uganda, that's where it is. Doesn't matter the tape they're showing has been altered to match their claim. Soon as the original comes out what will you say then? Oh it doesn't matter we knew what he meant!

I think all the gay communities should band together and go to all these countries that oppose the homosexuals and march on their streets in order to help out their brothers and sisters in these troubling times. It isn't right they are persecuted for their belief and lifestyles, so go gett'em you guys and let them know where you stand.