Oh please, first, this is the ANGLICAN Church. It's ENGLISH. In fact, I have issues with the writer of this articl not calling it the Church of England. There are numersous Anglican Churches. Second, since it's counsin the Episcopal Church of the USA has had black bishops and its Preciding Bishop is a woman, I would think that the Anglicans could handle a Black Bishop. If you will the Anglican Church of South Africa has most notably raised Desmond Tutu to bishop during apartheid. The Church of England has women priest and gay priests. They are struggling right now to deal with same-sex marriage and whether they should elevate gays to the office of bishop. *sigh* While I have disagreed with ArchBishop Williams many times and have been upset with his efforts to hem in the Episcopal Church, I'm not unhappy to see him step down. However, I will be very interested to see how the Church of England proceeds as it elects its next Archbishop.

Oh and by the way, in 2009 the great African American and Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, and Episcopalian, has been named a saint by the Episcopal Church of the USA. His feast day is May 17th.

It's sound more like dogmatic and social issues, instead of racial issues. So why is it important if the leader is black or white, or any other color for that matter? I would think that the first question for any "Christian" is, "What would Jesus do?" Did Jesus pick his apostles by their skin color? Just wondering. (BTW, I'm not a Christian [anymore] because of all the dogma, race and social issues. I think Jesus is just fine, it's his followers and flock I can't stand.)

zapper, the reason Sentamu's name is brought up is that he is a favorite with the more conservative branches of the Church of England. He fought against the ordination of women, the elevation of women, the ordination of gays and lesbians and now, he opposes the government legalizing same-sex marriage. But the increasing liberalization of the Anglican faith is most heavily fought against by those from central African in particular Uganda. Plus Sentamu has the stench of Rupert Murdoch on him.

differnet: What does this have to do with race? Obviously, many people from Africa are people of color. So what? What you have mentioned is dogma and social issues. The racial spin is subterfuge. If someone want to argue dogma, church politics, and religious stances, that all well and good within the body of their belief system. To say any of these subjects must play lip service to race is another whole ballgame. I believe my argument is with the spin, not the actual upheaval within this sect.

zapper, please go back an read what I said. Sentamu is a favorite with the Conservatives in the Church of England. Moreover, I would point out that Desmond Tutu, also from Africa, has been one of the progressive voices in our denominations, who almost 20 years ago called for inclusion of the GLBT community. So, I don't think you really understand what is going on in the Anglican Communion in terms of Africa. One of the things that has happened is the issues with the Ugandan Anglican Church which has supported extreme homophobic measures. Remember that David Kato was killed in Uganda and that the Bishop there refused him graveside service. So, it is not surprising that Sentamu is homophobic.

good one...ROFL.....

Again, it's social issues, not racial ones. I don't dispute that there are many differences, but race doesn't appear to be the issue. Homophobia is not racial. Being gay is not racial, either.

I find all of the bias and bigotry disgusting, whether it relates to gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. It's sad that so many just don't grasp that what they "want," is not what everyone is capable of giving. Again, it's that power play and attempt of ultimate authority over someone else that continues to encourage mind slavery..

zapper - point noted... the only reason race is brought up is because the media decided to bring it up. Period. Dumb headline.

"spiritual leader of the Anglican Church (sic)?" and just who is the "non-spiritual" leader" leader of the Anglican Communion? Such "headlines" are not only confusing to non-church folk, subsidizing tabloid understandings of who "we" are, but in this case very very poor, though "pop"-ular theology of the Incarnation and of the Church, and of the Gospel of The Church being "taught" by a tabloid to everyone who would "buy" it-- literally, and hence believe it! So, if there is a spiritual leader of the Church of England (which is in itself as the Established Church of the English Nation, i.e., not separate from the government or the People of England), who is the spiritual leader of England? Do you publish as ignorantly other "news?" This is precisely why I no longer take anything the media says as "true," but only as biased, mis-understanding opinion built on the lowest common denominator of your readers understanding and comprehension. Who can your readers trust? And yes, the majority of the Anglican Communion is not only non-English, but non-Caucasian, so what does "race" have to do with any of this, save to sell a "story?"

Watch how many of the hypocrites jump to Catholic if a black man is put in charge. No place is as segregated as a church on Sunday.

Yes, a few have left, but the Episcopals are a refuge for many who find the Catholics and Southern Baptists too controlling. You see, Episcopals actually get to believe in science and in free will.

Daniel, some of those Episcopalians are not jumping solely because of the gay clergy issue. Some of us are leaving because of many things, including the bastardization of the Bible (have your ever read the Psalms in purely modern prose? There is no more poetry there) and the Trinity. Some of us are leaving because we hold traditional - not homophobe - views. All are welcome at the Father's house unless you disagree with the current leadership.

Annie, I attend a mass at 8am, where we read the King James bible. Each minister and congregation can make a choice, although the most congregations use the NSRV. We use Rite 1 for our 8am mass and the readings are from KJ. At our 10:15 mass, we use Rite 2 and the NSRV. So, if you are leaving over the version of the bible, you should talk to your parish priest. There is no rule that says there is a particular bible that is required - unless you want to use the New World Translation, which is the Jehovah Witness's version.

I read your other comment (below) first. Perhaps in your diocese you are permitted to use the KJV. And perhaps you are allowed to have Rite I. Had that been the case, perhaps I would have held on a little longer. Unfortunately, the Bishop here requires the use of NSRV and Rite II. Maybe I should move to your Diocese!

That choice is NOT left to the diocese Annie. That choice is by congregation. If you congregation made that choice it was done by the Vestry. Did you serve on your Vestry? I'm sorry. I can't help but think that you don't really know as much as you should about how the Episcopal Church is structured and where decisions are made. So, here it is, the men and women on your congregation's vestry made a decision you didn't like OR you left the church over the GLBT decision. Either way, you don't like the way the church decided to go after prayer and reflection. We wish you well, but no ONE person owns Episcopalianism and gets to decide what we do. That is why the congregation and the vestry are so important.

Annie, there are few things in the world as beautiful as a Rite I service. Sadly, there are also few things in the world as ugly as church politics.

Differnet - No, I did not serve on the vestry at my last church, but the one before it. And trust me, the Bishop sent a letter, which was read in every church in the Diocese on the same Sunday at every service. The Vestry did not make that decision; he did. I am quite well informed about the Episcopal Church, and I know where the decisions were made (at least in this Diocese). Again, perhaps it is different for you - I hope so. And you might want to look into the new proposed wording for the Trinity; I have to admit I do have a little problem with that. But, hey, I'm a traditional Episcopalian.

Rlquall, agreed - on both counts.

Annie, we are NOT Catholics. There are no vows of obedience. Congregations, often and frequently, do what they decide is right. Consider that there are still diocese that do not ordain women or gays and, yet, congregations within those diocese, often and freqently, call women and GLBT priest to serve them. May I suggest that if you find a church that you are comfortable with in the future, that you join the leadership. But I will warn you that few denominations allow their layity as much power in decisions as the Episcopal Church does.

I like Rite 1 too. It's why I go to 8am mass sometimes. I get to have both....

I strongly suggest that you get to know the Episcopal Church overall better then you claim to know it. Because you have without a doubt made some statements about the church and cannon laws that are totally untrue. For starters The Bishops power is absolute with his clergy and if a Bishop decides something the clergy are bound by obedience to comply. And Vestry powers are NOT absolute as you try to say. Read your Cannon Laws before you start talking in general terms as if you were speaking with knowledge. And hate to tell you, but people like you and how you answered Annie is what has given and gives the church a bad name. Not our female clergy ,Or gay positions., But the politicians like you within the church. Please accept this with ALL the love and kindness that God wants for you .

Night Hawk, I disagree with you. I've been on my church's vestry. We have a lot of decision making powers. In addition, you might also want to mention that the layity is also part of the larger decision making power within the Episcopal Church and are represented at the Conventions. There is a great deal of freedom within the Episcopal faith.

Well, this proves one trueism about the Episcopal Church, you can always find someone to agree and someone to disagree with you in the Episcopal Church.

abby, we need to keep moving forward because Christianity requires us to fight for social justice. As mentioned above, I would be thrilled if the Church of England chose either Nick Baines or Tim Stevens. Sentamu is a step backwards in my mind.

abby and differnet - but where then should we traditionalists go? I guess we shouldn't let the door hit us. And no, I am not a homophobe. See my post above at 3.3

Oh, and by the way, as the Episcopal church tries its "next new thing", the memberships just keep declining. Haven't you noticed that? I'm not talking one parish - I'm talking the membership as a whole. Look at it and see what it was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago.

Annie, if you left the Episcopal Church over the version of the bible, you've obviously left for a very strange reason. The splinter in the church is ENTIRELY over the ordination and elevation of gays and lesbians. Denying it won't change that fact. As for membership declining, it's declining everywhere as materialsim has become the overwhelming faith of most people in the USA. I will say that my congregation has been gaining members steadily over the last few years. We have many new congregants who were Catholic or from Evangelistic denominations, and yes, we have picked up several same-sex headed families.

You obviously picked up on only ONE of the issues I have with the Episcopal Church. And that's fine. I've noticed that many pick and choose the issue that defines them. It was many, many things and frankly, the gay/lesbian clergy was a very minor issue, which didn't affect me. Perhaps it's different in your Diocese. I hope so and I hope you and your church grow and prosper. For me, there were simply too many things at odds with the church I grew into and Rowan Williams was a prime example. A lovely man, perhaps, but he certainly wasn't steadfast in anything I could find. Blessings to you and yours.

Annie -- bless your Christian attitude. And differnet, thank you for pointing out that one of the harshest plagues facing this country is the false God of Materialism.

Annie--sounds to me as if you biship was bluffing and the congregations fell for it. Bishops are just as likely to be dysfunctional bullies as anyone else. The point is that the congregation can make decisions for itself. If so, just find some like-minded people and start up a new congregation. It probably wouldn't be all that difficult, though you would have to find out how to get it done.

But, yes, the old Latin masses were beautiful (don't happen to be Episcopalian, so I don't know what Rite I is--I will guess it's a parallel--and the local Episcopalian church has a big sign out front that says Rite I is early on Sunday morning and Rite II is later in the morning). In fact, some Catholic churches continued to offer the Latin mass even when they weren't supposed to. These days, it's my understanding that it is being encouraged.

If the people who miss Rite I just leave, then you are just leaving the others to do as they please. Abandoning something usually isn't the best option unless the others you were around were acting in bad faith. Alternatively, you could go to a Unitarian Universalist church--they will let you do pretty much whatever you like, as that's the whole idea of following one's own conscience.

beanathome, Episcopals have never said their masses in Latin. Our masses since the founding of the denomination, even back to our roots as Church of England, has always said its masses in English. Moreover, we have used Rite 2 since 1979, so I have to say that Annie either left the church a LONG time ago or she's not being honest, perhaps not even with herself, about why she left the church. Moreover, the Catholic Church uses the NSRV bible, so I really don't understand her point.

Do you truly see black or white or do you open yours eyes to see Beautiful COLOR:

differnet -- Not quite true. Episcopalians in America also use Spanish and other languages. The mass is said in the vernacular, meaning it is said in the language of the people whatever that might be. And, of course, Anglicans around the world use many, many languages. English is not required. I'm from SD, originally, and many Episcopal churches there use Indian (Native-American) dialects.

Gayle, you are absolutely right. I should have been clear. We have never said our masses in Latin. Thank you so much for correcting me. I'm so glad you caught that.

Well, Dan... Can you imagine the day when the Pope is black? The Catholic Church is a strong force in Africa. It could happen. And yes, it would be a first. It would also be an important first, if the Pope were an Asian or Hispanic.

Not really, the whole first black thing is very 1947, it's pretty racist to say the most important thing about any particular person is that they are the first of their race to do something, as if they have no other worthy attributes other than to serve as the first black _____.

Also, the Catholic Church needs to go away. I hope I never live to see the day when any other person leads it, not because they are undeserving but because the CC is a corrupt, criminal enterprise that should be plowed under.

hey dan, why the anger and hatred for the Catholic Church? do you really know what is going on in the CC other than what the liberal media and catholic haters spew? the Catholic Church doesn't wish you ill. we will pray for you instead of returning hatred for hatred.

Kevin, that is common knowledge he was a CIA asset. So was a whole lot of the terrortists we are fighting today. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I might meet you face to face, in a public place. But what would that solve? Care to answer that?

Rite 2 has been in use since 1978. Therefore, it is pretty darn clear that people like you are using it as an excuse for your homophobia. I have tried to be diplomatic about this, but when people lie repeatedly about the Episcopal Church, I have to be sure that the truth is laid out for people not familiar with the denomination.

Therefore, it is pretty darn clear that people like you are using it as an excuse for your homophobia.

That was such a moving and Christian comment by you different.

Night Hawk, I'm not happy about how I phrased that. But there is so much misinformation about the various denominations. There are many open and affirming denominations. Episcopalianism is just one. However, we don't say crazy things and we tend to like nuance, as a result, the open and affirming Christian denominations get a bad name. For the most part, we just do what we are called to do and try to ignore the furor around us, but I get very weary of having to so often be the sane Christian on a board or thread.