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Johannes Simon / Getty Images, file
John Demjanjuk emerges from a Munich court after a judge sentenced him to 5 years in prison on May 12, 2011.
BERLIN -- John Demjanjuk, a retired U.S. autoworker who was convicted of being a guard at the Nazis' Sobibor death camp despite steadfastly maintaining over three decades of legal battles that he had been mistaken for someone else, died Saturday, his son told The Associated Press. He was 91.
Demjanjuk, convicted in May of 28,060 counts of being an accessory to murder and sentenced to five years in prison, died a free man in a nursing home in the southern Bavarian town of Bad Feilnbach. He had been released pending his appeal.
John Demjanjuk Jr. said in a telephone interview from Ohio that his father died of natural causes. Demjanjuk had terminal bone marrow disease, chronic kidney disease and other ailments.
It was not yet known whether he would be brought back to the U.S. for burial.
Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk had steadfastly denied any involvement in the Nazi Holocaust since the first accusations were levied against him more than 30 years ago.
"My father fell asleep with the Lord as a victim and survivor of Soviet and German brutality since childhood," Demjanjuk Jr. said. "He loved life, family and humanity. History will show Germany used him as a scapegoat to blame helpless Ukrainian POWs for the deeds of Nazi Germans."
His conviction helped set new German legal precedent, being the first time someone was convicted solely on the basis of serving as a camp guard, with no evidence of being involved in a specific killing.
Presiding Judge Ralph Alt said the evidence showed Demjanjuk was a piece of the Nazis' "machinery of destruction."
"The court is convinced that the defendant ... served as a guard at Sobibor" from March 27, 1943, until mid-September 1943, Alt said in his ruling.
Israeli Holocaust scholar Yehuda Bauer, who researches at the Yad Vashem memorial, said Demjanjuk's story showed an important moral lesson.
"You don't let people, even if they were only junior staff, get away from responsibility," Bauer said.
Despite his conviction, his family never gave up its battle to have his U.S. citizenship reinstated so that he could live out his final days nearby them in the Cleveland area. One of their main arguments was that the defense had never seen a 1985 FBI document, uncovered in early 2011 by the AP, calling into question the authenticity of a Nazi ID card used against him.
Demjanjuk maintained that he was a victim of the Nazis himself -- first wounded as a Soviet soldier fighting German forces, then captured and held as a prisoner of war under brutal conditions.
"I am again and again an innocent victim of the Germans," he told the panel of Munich state court judges during his 18-month trial, in a statement he signed and that was read aloud by his attorney Ulrich Busch.
He said after the war he was unable to return to his homeland, and that taking him away from his family in the U.S. to stand trial n Germany was a "continuation of the injustice" done to him.
"Germany is responsible for the fact that I have lost for good my whole reason to live, my family, my happiness, any future and hope," he said.
But representatives of victims, Jewish groups and others welcomed his trial as a legitimate quest for justice.
"A death is always tragic. But in this case it is important to say that it was right to put him on trial and sentence him," the president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, told the AP.
"Justice does not know a statute of limitation, and age does not protect from punishment. This was never about revenge, but about justice," he added.
Demjanjuk's claims of mistaken identity, however, gained credence after he successfully defended himself against accusations initially brought in 1977 by the U.S. Justice Department that he was "Ivan the Terrible" -- a notoriously brutal guard at the Treblinka extermination camp.
In connection with the allegation, he was extradited to Israel from the U.S. in 1986 to stand trial on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity, convicted and sentenced to death. But the Israeli Supreme Court in 1993 overturned the verdict on appeal, saying that evidence showed another Ukrainian man was actually "Ivan the Terrible," and ordered him returned to the U.S.
The Israeli judges said, however, they still believed Demjanjuk had served the Nazis, probably at the Trawniki SS training camp and Sobibor. But they declined to order a new trial, saying there was a risk of violating the law prohibiting trying someone twice on the same evidence.
Demjanjuk returned to his suburban Cleveland home in 1993 and his U.S. citizenship, which had been revoked in 1981, was reinstated in 1998.
Demjanjuk remained under investigation in the U.S., where a judge revoked his citizenship again in 2002 based on Justice Department evidence suggesting he concealed his service at Sobibor.
Appeals failed, and the nation's chief immigration judge ruled in 2005 that Demjanjuk could be deported to Germany, Poland or Ukraine.
Prosecutors in Germany filed charges in 2009, saying Demjanjuk's link to Sobibor and Trawniki was clear, with evidence showing that after he was captured by the Germans he volunteered to serve with the fanatical SS and trained as a camp guard.
Though there are no known witnesses who remember Demjanjuk from Sobibor, prosecutors referred to an SS identity card that they said features a photo of a young, round-faced Demjanjuk and that says he worked at the death camp. That and other evidence indicating Demjanjuk had served under the SS convinced the panel of judges in Munich, and led to his conviction.
He was ordered tried in Munich because he lived in the area briefly after the war.
Demjanjuk, who was removed by U.S. immigration agents from his home in suburban Cleveland and deported in May 2009, questioned the evidence in the German case, saying the identity card was possibly a Soviet postwar forgery.
He reiterated his contention that after he was captured in Crimea in 1942, he was held prisoner until joining the Vlasov Army -- a force of anti-communist Soviet POWs and others formed to fight with the Germans against the Soviets in the final months of the war.
Demjanjuk was born April 3, 1920, in the village of Dubovi Makharintsi in central Ukraine, two years before the country became part of the Soviet Union. He grew up during a time when the country was wracked by famines that killed millions, and a wave of purges instituted by Stalin to eliminate any possible opposition.
As a young man Demjanjuk worked as a tractor driver for the area's collective farm. After being called up for the Soviet Red Army, he was wounded in action but sent back to the front after he had recovered, only to be captured during the battle of Kerch Peninsula in May 1942.
After the war, Demjanjuk was sent to a displaced persons camp and worked briefly as a driver for the U.S. Army. In 1950, he sought U.S. citizenship, claiming to have been a farmer in Sobibor, Poland, during the war.
Demjanjuk later said he lied about his wartime activities to avoid being sent back to Ukraine, then a part of the Soviet Union.
Just to have admitted being in the Vlasov Army would also have been enough to have him barred from emigration to the U.S. or many other countries.
He came to the U.S. on Feb. 9, 1952, and eventually settled in Seven Hills, a middle-class suburb of Cleveland.
He was a mechanic at Ford Motor Co.'s engine plant in the Cleveland suburb of Brook Park and with his wife, Vera, raised three children -- son John Jr. and daughters Irene and Lydia.
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I hope where ever he is, he finally realizes what horrors he and others committed. That will be a true hell.
The old soldier, should be taken right up into heaven. He was made to live his hell on earth for serving his country.
malocchio -
The reason he was singled out as a guard was because he was particularly evil; the man loved "serving his country."
He was a power freak that enjoyed beating and killing Jewish people. The reality of the horrors he committed are beyond our worst nightmares.
The world is a better place without him.
He new he was wrong or he wouldn't of lived so long.
Too bad this SOB died before he got a chance to find out what it was like to be treated like a caged animal. He certainly inflicted enough pain on so many others. My only regret is that he managed to escape any real punishment for his action. Enjoy an eternity in hell you piece of @!$%#.
Demjanjuk was a scapegoat and his persecution was an abomination. Consider one of his primary accusers:
Please, all of you who are rejoicing at this innocent man's travails, take a few minutes and read this excellent article from Esquire Magazine; it is enlightening: http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
I hope and hope he meets the people he killed in his afterlife.
MONSTER IS NOT AN EVIL ENOUGH WORD FOR WHAT HE HAD DONE
Sorry, innocent he ain't. What ever one wants to make of octogenarian witnesses, there were reams and reams of evidence from Russian, American, and even German records that showed this man was a Ukrainian death camp guard. Did some of the elderly witnesses conflate his ID with several other guards? Perhaps, but the evidence shows he was among them. He escaped any real punishment, and live to be ninety one years old. How many in the death camps did he watch go to their end without regret?
I'm not sure what you're saying Chicago, are saying he was a witness.?
EllisF - recall that there were reams and reams of evidence that this man was "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka and sentenced to die by an Israeli court... until it was proven that he was not Ivan the Terrible and released after 7 years on death row. He may have been "among" the group of Ukrainian conscripted workers but he has never been identified as specifically committing an atrocity. Being there is not tantamount to being a criminal.
Lusitania - I am saying that Demjanjuk is being unfairly judged by many commenters here based on sound bites of information they have seen or heard that highlight the inflammatory phrase "Nazi death camp guard". The Esquire Magazine article offers detailed information to the contrary. Please read it.
http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
The world is less one evil man....
The Holocaust began with Hitler's rise to power in January of 1933 and ended on VE Day (May 8, 1945). During this time, more than 6 million Jews and millions of other groups that caught the negative attention of Nazi Germany. While all the murders were devastating to native populations, none were so devastating than that of the Jews. During this period, 5,000 Jewish communities were wiped out and the total that died represented 1/3 of all Jewish people alive at that time.
All told, there were only about 200,000 Jewish survivors by the end of the liberation and the death counts from the holocaust were estimated to be around 6 million Jews and millions of other people who did not fit the Aryan mold.
For those who question this out of ignorance, your situation is understandable. For those who question the facts out of arrogance and hatred....
“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.”
―Elie Wiesel
“I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides.”
―Elie Wiesel
"Only the good die young... "
Oh please! Let's not pat ourselves on the back so soon. First consider if you've done anything wrong since you know yourselves and what wicket thoughts you have had. Unless you're all perfect, realize you would probably have done the same thing. It's a human problem. The Church even had inquisitions, crusades etc.
If I were a believer, I'd bet there would be a huge St. Paddy's Day party reception planned in hell. All of the devil's closest entourage would be there. Adolph Hitler, Himmler et al would be onn the welcoming committee to honour the arrival of one of their own. Brief celebration before getting down to a brimstone eternity.
Well isn't that special - being censored by the community for presenting an alternative viewpoint. I'll try another snippet of information that illustrates a particular level of unfairness:
Here is the link to the excellent Esquire magazine article that examined this case in detail:
http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
After reading the above comments, whether he is the monster or not, he is now being judged by the only true judge.
"Nazi war criminal dies" isn't news. "Nazi war criminal fathers a child" would be news.
Well If he was guilty of what he was accused then that is the law, now when are the trials going to start for the was crimes that the Israeli military has committed In Palestine, Lebanon, starting with Sharon and his commanders that slaughtered the civilians in Lebanon or that the Jewish state stole the homes of legitimate Palestinians the that had lived in Jerusalem for centuries. Lets have justice on both side . Ha HA That will never happen until there is a major battle
@Chicago skeptic....I agree. I am amazed at what gets collapsed on Newsvine. Often it is just a differing viewpoint. btw... I ALWAYS READ THEM ANYWAY!!
He didn't just take a wrong turn at Albuquerque, he died. His brain died. Wishes, dreams, thoughts, realizations, even any remorse--All are gone, neutralized.
We all have problems with the idea that he lived a long life and avoided any substantial punishment for his crimes. However, life isn't fair and I have no reason to assume death is either.
We will never know the real truth...so stop these ridiculous posts...there are those among you who need a course in grammar and spelling...please learn English!
Some of these Posts are just plain annoying!
the second trial was a farce; the first trial was In Israel, the courts found , he was a Ukrainian guard at a prison camp, as were many, he did nothing but guard a gate, they found him not-guility of any war crimes abd set him free , , he had a choice become a guard or be killed by the Nazis; the second trial found that some of the guards were brutal to the prisoners, Poles, Jews, roman Catholics, Gypsies, Russians; however no one could point to anything he did wrong, the German army rounded up many Ukrainians, since the Ukrainians army was fighting the Russians, since Russia invaded it, at the beginning of ww-2; that country was always a separate state, as it is today, with a seat on the United Nations, the Russians killed over 5 million Ukrainians before and during the war; the U.S. Justice dept. made a mistake and Id him as ivan the terrible, the courts in Israel found out it was a mistaken identity and set him free, the U.S. then refusing to admit their mistake, sent him to Germany for another trial, even the trial judge there was not convinced he had done anything wrong, and gave him the minimum sentence, not to be served in prison, but in a retirement home.
Not even an Israeli court was willing to uphold their conviction of Demjanjuk on the pathetic excuse for "evidence" presented at his trial. "A court in Israel says retired Ohio car worker John Demjanjuk may not after all have been notorious Nazi death camp guard Ivan the Terrible." Yet he was still persecuted by those seeking revenge.
The last trial in Germany was under appeal because of questionable evidence used to convict him. "Their (the families) argument hinged largely on the fact that the defense had never seen a 1985 FBI document, uncovered in early 2011 by The Associated Press, calling into question the authenticity of a Nazi ID card used against him."
So people, before you pass judgment on something you know so little about and wish the man in hell, you need to ask yourself if he really is the war criminal beyond a shadow of a doubt.
There are far more monsters posting in this thread than died in Germany.
This is the European version of justice for someone who murdered 28,000 innicent people;
- Wait until they're old and ready to die before bringing them to trial.
- Take 10 years to actually bring them to trial.
- Set them free pending years of appeals until they finally die of old age.
How 'enlightened' of them - sort of like the mass murderer in Norway who killed over 60 children - He'll get a nice comfortable 'room' to live in, free food and tv and internet, medical care and 'conjugal visits', exercise equipment and a trainer, as well as being able to welcome 'guests'.
They consider our version of prison as 'torture'.
Takes courage to stand-up. Trust me when your country , goverment , and people around you push you in a direction that is clearly wrong....how many of you think have the real guts to stand up.
I remember the pathetic witness list that was assembled here - one would have been a 6 year old girl at the time he was accused of all this.
I really do not know about this person. But following sentence in the article is troubling.
QUOTE
"You don't let people, even if they were only junior staff, get away from responsibility," Bauer said.
UNQUOTE
I don't understand how a guard who is so low down the chain can be held responsible - unless he is being held for action that were totally under his control.
Just to illustrate the point - if Bush and Cheney are ever held as war criminals - are we going to call the soldiers who participated in the Iraq war and try them for serving under these two idiots.
On the one hand, this man was probably guilty of something--his behaviors suggested that. On the other hand, I don't think it could be proved. Sadly, when we cannot prove things, we have to release people who are almost certainly guilty. We do that for ourselves--because we don't want to be prosecuted on the flimsiest of evidence.
I do think he was guilty--but no one could prove it. I'm just glad that he got deported--at the very least, he should never have been granted the right to immigrate and then to become a citizen. I'm pretty sure they proved that well enough to do it. Separating him from his family at the end is about all that could be done. But, well, if there is an afterlife--I'll bet he's not enjoying his right about now.
I believe that it is worth it to try and find Nazi war criminals when they can be found and it can be proved that they are who we think they are--very hard, but doable. Even if they are very old, they deserve to be tried and convicted, just as the white supremacists who enjoyed their butchery in the 1950s South deserve to be tried and convicted. But, if it can't be proved, it's best just to leave it alone. Focus on the ones who can be identified for sure--dead or alive--and otherwise spend the money and time on people who are still young enough to be a threat to others. At some point, this sort of partial justice is a waste of resources that could go towards protecting the living. It won't help the dead.
And God, the true Judge, will decide guilt and his fate.
On the subject of collapsing...I find it irritating and sometimes downright infuriating. Before reading the comments I am forced to go through and uncollapse all of the collapsed comments. This is the only comment section on the Internet, that I am aware of, that allows this type of action by it's users. Heck, I even got suspended for a day for calling someone a bigot and have seen other users do the same thing repeatedly with nothing happening to them. God forbid you are a conservative or even an independent because the severely left leaning MSNBC will censor your comments, suspend, or even ban you for the slightest infraction. However, if you are a democrat you could commit murder and you would be forgiven by MSNBC.
@Chicago skeptic (and others) how dare you introduce any facts into this discussion.
We are Americans (most of us posting), we want blood, not the truth. (And if you don't believe me, go back and read some of the above posts.)
I, unlike most of the posters it seems, was not there. I don't know if he did it, but if he did he should have been put to death in the same manner as the many atrocities the POW war suffered (there was more than just Jews in those camps, they just happened to be the focal point of a mad man.)
Wow people comment without even reading the whole story....
The definition of the word "bigot" from Dictionary.com:
big·ot
[big-uht]
noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
This is not a curse word, nor an insult, but is comparable to the word racist that I see used on this board quite frequently.
The Israeli "Nazi hunters" don't really care about justice or making CERTAIN they are not condemning an innocent man for something he didn't do. They only care about getting their conviction to satisfy their bloodlust.
They can't prove this man was Ivan the Terrible, they can't prove that he was a prison guard, they can't prove that he did ANYTHING at all, but they can and did push an already biased court to believe that an old ID photo that could have been a million different European men "proved" his guilt.
Incidentally, wasn't former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon once known as "the Butcher of Beirut" because of the intentional massacre of civilians, women and children? Don't expect there to be an Israeli court trying him too soon.
@ Realist
Oh you poor baby. Maybe if mommy will hold your hand things will be better.
What's funny is your idea that it's liberals that collapse post. Maybe it's people that are independent that think the post is an outright lie or has nothing to do with the subject that are collapsing the post. Then again maybe it's right wing that don't like something bad being said about Bush and Cheney. I've seen them all and comment collapsing is from both sides of the isle.
Mommy died December 20, 1965 when I was 8 years old. Would be kind of hard for her to hold my hand now wouldn't it?
"Requiescat in pace, bastardo." - Ezio Auditore
Regarding the comments of this guy burning in hell... I'm agnostic, but even if I was a believer, I wouldn't see the point of hell. Why make someone suffer in flames forever? It makes absolutely no sense at all.
I've heard of other interpretations, where 'hell' is really just a separation from God. Kind of like what the 'hell' of being separated from a loved one or an ex-lover would be like. But again, FOREVER? People make up and get back together, so this whole 'forever' thing is a real deal breaker for me. God, if she exists, can't be that mean. Even I (and I would guess, most people) wouldn't be that mean, I'd cut people a break... they're only silly humans, after all, and if I didn't want them to be 'bad' in the first place, I wouldn't have given them an ego... so I don't see how God could be so cruel. (Again, if it exists.)
(After re-reading the above, it just reinforces my agnostic ideals. Religion, be it Christian, Greek Mythology, Mesoamerican, or whatever, are some of the silliest tales ever told.)
Santorum lost a potential running mate.
Judge not...
@Chicago Skeptic. I am from the Cleveland area, I have followed this trial since the last e 70s and I agree with you. They hounded an old man who never showed any racists tendencies, and they did so because some prosecutor wanted a Nazi trophy on their wall. He may have been in a Nazi death camp, but he was there because he was a Russian POW and not by choice, and anything that he may have done was because he was ordered to do so or he would have also been killed. I originally thought that he was guilty but as time when on I realized that he might be innocent of being Ivan the Terrible, and now I am convinced that he was now who they claimed that he was.
He was sent to Israel after the first conviction but they sent him back to the US when they determined that he wasn't Ivan the terrible. If Israel had any evidence that he was a war criminal they would have kept him in prison but ewven the Jewish state said that we had convicted the wrong man. Did anyone notice that at the height of the Cold War we somehow trusted evidence from the Soviet Union to convict him, which is very strange.
He was a Russian POW who was captured by the Nazis and who was just trying to survive the war.
Ok, so when are we finally going to put Bush and Cheney in jail? God knows they were both worse than this tired old soldier.
How many war criminals live among us?
America! Land of the Free and Home of Brave!
How many have been given sanctuary by our government?
Enquiry Minds want to know.
He fell asleep with the lord, huh? That's usually the final cry, the final F YOU, from these low-life BuyBull freaks. "he's made his peace with the lord, he's with jesus now..."
Yeah. Whatever.
I feel for his family. At this point in time we/they will never know the truth, the whole truth.
Actually, Dr. Cat, you sound more like an atheist and not an agnostic. I find a lot of these comments amusing, but it never ceases to amaze me how it can turn from the subject at hand to either religion or politics. While I admire your honesty and respect your right to believe (or not believe) anything you want, I will have to say you are way off base with your "silliest tales ever told" comment. While you may not believe God created the earth, there are a lot of stories in the Bible that can be supported by historical fact. Case in point, as a student of archaeology I know that the great flood depicted in the book of Genesis can be verified in the strata of the earth. Whether you want to believe in Noah and an ark is your choice. However, it is also interesting to note that cultures around the world, from Africa to Asia to Meso America have very similar stories about that occurence. Might I add that these populations would not have had contact with each other (as their particular stories come from a time before traveling across the ocean for great distances was possible). The best part is that they all recount the story of a single family saved by a Supreme Being from the flood. Too similar to be coincidence. Now, you seem like an educated person based on the fact you punctuate properly and can spell correctly. If you are truly an agnostic (one who can neither confirm nor deny the existence of God, but is looking for the answer), you owe it to yourself to check into the stories of the Bible and then compare to historical evidence. You just might be surprised. Mass cases of similarities gives evidence to truth.
Irregardless of the court verdicts in Germany, His true guilt or innocence has already been decided by a far higher power than any that will be found on this Earth.
McGeer- what I find disturbing about the single family thing, wouldn't there be major inbreeding? there would not be a whole lot of genetic diversity if there where only, Adam and Eve, Noah's family etc. There is proof of a genetic-bottle neck about 50,000 years ago could be linked to the Toba eruption. this has been analyzed through mitachondreil DNA. This puts this out of the biblical timeline.
Jungle Jim, I agree with you. I do not believe the world is merely 6000 years old. I don't really know how to explain the one family giving rise to the human population (although in the Bible's version of Noah it is Noah and his wife and their three sons and their wives that repopulated the world). The cheetah populations in Africa have undergone a similar reduction in number and then re-populating based on a very small mating population. That happened about 10,000 years ago. Now the cheetahs are having massive physical problems based on that inbreeding. That could be a very plausable excuse for what the human population is like today, just look around when walking down the street.....
He was a Soviet soldier and captured in battle. Soviet prisoners of war were treated just as bad as the people held in concentration camps. Many Soviet troops died while being held. Germany did not honor the Geneva Conventions with their handling of Soviet POWS. Many Soviet soldiers were starved to death, worked to death, hung, shot, beaten,and shipped to concentration or death camps for disposal. Many men serving in the Soviet army were non Russian people, Lithuanians, Latvians and Ukrainians. They had no love for their Russian communist conquers/oppressors. They volunteered for service with the Germans as a matter of survival. Just like many concentration camp inmates were clerks, capos or sonderkommandos in the camps. It was a matter of surviving. Ask yourself would voluntarily die rather than kill someone else? If he was a guard at Sobibor he did kill people. Sobibor was not a concentration camp it was a death camp. You could survive Auschwitz. If your train arrived at Sobibor you were dead in 30 minutes unless they need sonderkommandos to dispose of the bodies. If you were chosen to work at Sobibor you were dead in six months. There are no survivors to identify him because so few survived Sobibor to begin with and the Germans destroyed the camp after the sonderkommando revolt. He was not a civilian from Vilinus, Kiev, Brussels, Paris, Amsterdam or Helsinki that volunteered to fight in a SS unit for profit or politics. He did it to survive. He lied about his being a guard because he would have been shipped back to the Soviet Union after the war and they would have executed him as a traitor for serving the Nazis. They executed many that did exactly what he did. What would you do to survive?
New York City is real. That doesn't mean Spiderman lives there. Even though a lot of authors have written the same stories about him. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
I had forgotten about this quote. I'm glad you reminded me.
Yours is not to make a judgement of this person. What if he was innocent? You'd feel bad then, wouldn't you?
Actually, it would be more properly stated as "the biggest practical joke ever played upon mankind..." but, whatever works.
Oh, horse-crap. There are a lot of factual matters within the Harry Potter novels that are factual, too. Such as the mention of a British Prime Minister, the existence of London and Surrey, and so on. But it doesn't make the rest of the tales factual...
Rubbish. Any geologist or hydrologist worth his salt is laughing at you and your nonsense.
McGeer wrote:
No, I'm agnostic, because while I don't believe there's any way to prove there is a 'god,' there's also no way to prove that there isn't. So I'm open to the possibility, but with the understanding that it may all just be a fun little hoax.
What I don't believe is that a god as you describe would be so immature as to flood an entire world in the first place. That doesn't sound 'all wise' to me, or be a god that I would want around. Would 'Mr. Rogers' or Mother Teresa flood the world? I don't think so. Hence, my "silliest tales ever told" statement.
@D Morgan: Agree with your comments. One does wonder what rocks some of these people have been living under, and whether they are getting enough nutrients to their brains.
Exactly. And Dr Cat also hits upon another point. About a god -- supposedly so wise and powerful -- as to be depicted in the BuyBull as some vindictive, mass-murdering low-life, more than willing to destroy his children for behaving exactly as he created them to behave, and for behaving exactly how HE KNEW THEY WOULD BEHAVE.
That last point -- for behaving exactly how HE KNEW THEY WOULD BEHAVE -- is what a lot of mindless BuyBull morons seem to forget. The BuyBull god is supposed to be all knowing and all-time, the beginning and the ending. He would have known at the time of creation that he was setting things into motion, knowing full well that he would eventually destroy everyone with a great flood and start over with only a handful of people. He not only KNEW he would do that, but he knew he was creating people that would behave in exactly the manner he created them to behave. There are no surprises for an all-knowing god that is all-time. So, as well, why would he have gotten upset and then unleashed the great flood? Why would he have been disappointed in their sinful behavior? They were behaving exactly as he knew they would, in the exact manner that he created them to behave.
Therefore, if this was all true -- then we have a universe-creating god that is an illogical, moronic twit who mass-murders entire races of people for his jollies, supports slavery, hates women, etc, etc, etc. Hence -- my statement above: the BuyBull is the single greatest practical joke ever played upon mankind.
It's uncanny that BuyBull believers cannot see some of the fundamental Fatal Flaws in logic in the BuyBull itself. It's really quite remarkable -- the level of mindlessness and the total lack of critical thought that BuyBull believers have. Sad, really...
Add to that, the logic of having to do the jesus-virigin-birth-thing because your old laws were no good. So THEN, you had to come up with the logic of a jesus-man-god-creature who needed to be tortured to death, in order to get your message across. WTF?
Combine that with the fact that BuyBull-god had the fore-knowledge which told him: DESPITE all of this, and over 2000 years of having the BuyBull on earth -- and by the year 2012, over 2/3 of the people on the earth dismissed the BuyBull as a ridiculous fairy-tale, either in favor of other cults, or no cult belief at all -- BuyBull-god still says "yeah, that'll do. I can handle sending billions and billions of my children to hell for an eternity of suffering, for behaving EXACTLY as I created them to behave, for critical thinking in a manner EXACTLY as I created them to think, for TURNING OUT exactly as I created them to TURN OUT and exactly how I ALREADY KNEW they would TURN OUT."
EPIC FAIL folks. The BuyBull and how it depicts a universe-creating job is an EPIC FAIL on so many levels, that you have to reject it if you have the most basic ability to employ critical thinking, reason and logic.
Cheers!
There sure is a lot of judges out here! Hope all your a**es are perfect when you die!
Prove your cult nonsense... why just sit around and babble?
Stop being a coward, and prove it!
Give us the provable facts, the indisputable evidence! Not silliness and babble.
Leave the Irish and our day alone, Blackbird. You other nationalities (jews, germans etc.) can yell this one out. As for the holocaust, yeah, we know it was horrible. Hollywood makes a film about it every other month.
dmorgan..
i often thought those same thoughts that god knowing the future destroyed everything with the flood. but the fallen angels seduced adams daughters to ruin gods plan and the hybrid children were born giants whom were not his people. the world became so evil he chose to destroy it. if everyone could try to live by the ten commandments think what a better world it would be..
you seem very determined to have proof so maybe you will find it. the only pysical thing left now that will prove it is when the anti christ comes.
Those who he has alleged to have killed have a blessing: "Blessed are Thou, oh L--d our G-D, ruler of the universe, the true judge." He will be judged now.
There is NO god....he has died having never suffered for his crimes....now he never will. god is nothing more than an adult fairy tale....only the ignorant and very young and naive believe in fairy tales.....
@meanman: Actually, I have an easier time believing in the Tooth Fairy than believing the entire universe came into existence out of nothing.
Someday, meanman, you will either stand before him or you won't... You'd better hope you're right on this one.
I know there is a tooth fairy Boss.....he was my father...I saw him every day! Besides apparantly god came from nothing and created the entire universe from nothing too.....imagine that! says so right there in black and white...read your bible.
Someday Bruce I will be dead having lived a good life....I have no fears either way.
If this god of yours is anything at all he is a total failure!!
I have some very Bad news for someone!.
okie dokie Tony.....are you going to tell us and put forth a bit of evidence.....or like the myriad of religions around the world....just make something up. I can hardly wait...
WELL PUT
Michael-267231,
I am an Atheist, but I respect your faith and prayer.
I wish I could believe in that stuff because it would make me feel better knowing that he will rot in hell for all of eternity for his crimes against so many thousands people.
I am 50, and having reviewed Christianity, and many other faiths. I find that for me, They don't make any sense at all. I don't mean to shake your faith, and probably couldn't if I tried.
The way I see it is that he is dead and got away with these crimes for all eternity. The victims will be victims for all eternity.
The real shame of this, is that he will be remembered, and the victims will not.
meanman# if he wants to believe the difference between good and evil is no different than the North and South poles he's entitled to his own opinion
I'll take my chances with GOD then be included with Demjanjuk.
Lol, what's funny is how the report about a guy who assisted in the slaughter of thousands of people suddenly turns into a match between the "There is a God vs there is no God." I'm surprised that nobody has slipped in Obama and Bush.
Its a Fact , to comment any further would = hijacking the thread and be off topic and a futile waste of tme..
meanman, you are just as bad as the people that attempt to push their religion on other people. Keep your beliefs (or lack of) to your self and you will be surprised at how much more pleasant your life will be!
And so will the real german killers-how do you convict soldiers for following orders-where is the real Ivan ? Only the SS would have been in charge - Where are the Jews who helped murder their own - for if they would not have aided in the extermination camps there would not have been extermination camps Germans would not have done such things as remove corpse for the gas chambers to ovens...enough blame to go around.
Yeah right...and those prisoners at Abu Graib wouldn't have gotten there unless some muslims ratted them out. Guards are merely guards following orders. That they were cruel douches while on guard duty has nothing to do with it. Guarding a prison gate is simply too encompassing a task to allow a guard the freedom or opportunity to exercise any form of cruelty in a closed society that hates so-called "towel-heads" or "tallit-heads
Where are all the mothers of rape victims? For if they wern't dressing their daughters up to look like houri there would be no prisons....
This kind of logic comes straight out of the "Amin Haj alHusseini personally-collabrate-with-Hitler-handbook"
Seriously, Bruce, you're pulling Pascal's Wager out of the mothballs? This argument for believing in God was debunked centuries ago. Just to recap, you are presenting a false dichotomy; there aren't just two options, but an infinite number of them. Just because a God exists doesn't mean He is the God you believe in, so you are actually the one who better hope you're right. Suppose, for example, there is a God, but He (a) isn't the God you pray to, and (b) abhors people who believe in some other God even more than He abhors people who don't believe in Him.
In the absence of knowing which one might be true, not believing any of them actually makes the most sense.
Seriously Dan, who appointed you "Know it all" for the world. Your belief that there's no God is nor more factual then those that do. I'll side with those that do, cause #1 Belief in God appears to be fundamentally programmed into life. #2 It appears the Universe is wired for Life. #3 He gave all life "free choice". Try reading "Unified Reality Theory", it''s soften your tone. You might be right about God not being what we expect, odds are good She might be in the form of a Women.
JJ, your belief that there are no leprchauns is no more factual than those who do believe. Try reading a box of Lucky Charms.
JJ
Any proofs for your #s 1, 2, and 3?
'Cause I believe they're all just YOUR beliefs. Beliefs aren't truths, friend.
Which is exactly whet the BuyBull says, by the way. However, that isn't what science postulates, but science doesn't claim to factually know how the universe began (yet) -- it can only postulate based on observed phenomena.
But as for your BuyBull and its creation statements -- much like the stories about DirtMan and RibWoman, etc -- sorry, they are just so much goddam nonsense. It's no wonder you can get a 5yo to believe that crap, much like getting them to swallow the easter-bunny garbage for a little while, while that sort of silliness is fun for children... However, that an adult still clings to that crutch of cultism to navigate through life -- it's really quite sad.
Cheers!
mean man---
there is but one unforgivable sin. by the time you realize that it will be too late...and god will say "i never knew you" and you will be deleted into nothingness as if you never existed. you wanted evidence...jesus the son of god arose from the dead which about 500 people were witness to. who do you know of dead 3 days then alive again? it is written in history just like 911 will be there in 2000 yrs. god split the sea, killed all the first born sons of the pharaohs as proof he was real. what kind of proof would it take for you to know he is real? i truly hope god to show himself to you in a way only you will know. he is always hear you will see. god bless you.
which cult god are YOU referring to, chartsweb? any proof of its existence, other than your babble and cult-threats? Your stories and "proof" are simply the blah-blah that you've gotten from your unprovable, mythical cult book, BuyBull.
Quoting it doesn't make it real. And the book itself isn't proof of its own stories. It isn't real just because it says it's real... Do you understand that?
Or is this just more of your cultism and fear thing...?
@chartsweb
Yeah, about that... There appear to be SEVEN unforgivable sins, stated very clearly in the bible. If you need me to quote them, I can. Please be correct when chastising people. You never know when you may be chastised yourself.
P.S I am Christian, so don't decide that I am an atheist, or God hater, or Muslim just because I believe in correctness.
just trying to plant a seed...who knows? i did not mean what i said in an offensive way. i am by no means goody tu shu or think i am perfect or without sin or find myself able to concentrate on reading the bible long enough to get through it. i was not being a hypocrit or judge anyone. not being a believer is the one unpardiinable sin is what i'm taught and seems an obvious reason. when i was a kid i had an experience with seeing spiritual beings in my room one night...so knowing there's a spiritual world made god all the more real for me not to mention the many times i needed him in emergency (even financial and car trouble) i cried to him and i recieved almost instantly. sorry for long story but i am sorry for nonbelievers and wish something could prove it for them.
Charts, the last thing you should do, or be told that you must do, is apologize. Not when you're apologizing for the very same things that your opposition does, lol. To hell with'em, they can believe as they please and you certainly have the right to believe as you believe.
chartsweb, as the original poster of #2, I take offense at what you said. The faith of the people Denjanjuk was allegedly involved in mass murdering were Jewish, not Christian. With all due respect, your first comment in this particular thread is just as "dangerous cult-ic" as that of the Mormons who are presently baptizing dead Jews and others. You are entitled believe what you will, but don't tell me that I'm second or third class because I don't believe in your belief system.
Excuse me...wasn't this supposed to be talking about someone accused of being a horrible war criminal? Also, the nazi didn't only kill the Jewish people but also gypsies, mentally ill, children without parents, their own German people for not doing what they were told, for not having a "pure" family history for at least 3 generations back from themselves, and near the end of the war for being to ill to fight! I don't know if this person who died was in the prison camps as a guard or not...I am still glad I live now and not then...I am still glad that, (most of the time), you are innocent until proven guilty in this country. By the way, Germany wasn't the only country who ever thru out the Jews after robbing them and treating them bad...England did too! (I am sure alot of other countries did too but have been forgotten or forgiven!) I hope this man wasn't in the prison camps as a guard because I have just finished reading a book (Yes! A Real Book!) that was saying that guard work was for the Germans who had been or should have been in prisons! As far as is there a Higher Power or God...without one I don't think humans would have love or hope.
His only crime was following orders
For most Ukrainian POW's volunteering to serve the German military was the only ticket to survival. Jews in Auschwitz had better rations than Russian POW's in German camps. I would like to see some of his critics go through the same trials and tribulations and do any better. Jews simply made Demianiuk a symbol of their relentless prosecution of the Nazis.
First How can we say hes any more guilty than any other Nazi soldier in the war. You cant prove he directly murdered any jews.
Second im sure hell go to heaven because im sure he beleives in jesus and feels sorry for anything he may have done, and from what christians tell me thats all u gotta do to get into heaven.
Poor John was harrassed and Convicted by a Bunch of Liberal P.C. Nazis ! You might as well put every Prison Guard in Jail everytime there is an execution of an Innocent man ! This poor guy wasn't even a Nazi! Mr Braun, get your facts straight! Not one witness came forward during all of those years and Identified John as this evil prison Guard , NOT ONE ! I'm sure that someon, somewhere survived and would have come forward! NOT ONE! Max 108 hit it right on the button ! P.S. My Stepfather was in a Russian P.O.W. camp and they were treated worse than any Concentration camp prisoner. He was one of 95,000 Germans who was marched out of Russia at the end of the war, ONLY 5000 Survived ! You bleeding heart liberals have no clue , you make me want to Puke !
I feel so bad when an old degenerate Nazi dies. I wish I could have killed him myself.
Was Demjanjuk actually a member of the 'Nazi Party' as you say, Airborn7?
Actually he was not a member of the Nazi party.
Demjanjuk was a Russian soldier captured by the Germans in 1942; there is documentary evidence that he was one of the thousands of POWs recruited and trained by the Nazis to staff the death camps in various roles such as cooks, barbers, tailors, etc. Demjanjuk was a "Wachmann", a common laborer.
Esquire magazine published an excellent, detailed article about the case:
http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
Interesting background to this story coming from both sides. I guess, unless it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed his task will malice and without being forced, he should not be punished or criminalized for his actions. If those things are true, then he deserved a bullet the moment he was convicted.
If he was guilty, he deserved the worst punishment the law allows. But after 70 years and so much conflicting evidence, there is no way he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The Holocaust was beyond monstrous, and anyone who participated in it deserves punishment beyond anything possible on this earth. But if Demjanjuk is not Ivan, a terrible injustice has been done to him. The bottom line is that he was not proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
x
His defense claims that the KGB faked the Nazi ID card. Why did Russia or Ukraine not come to his defense and what would be KGB motive to fake the ID? Why would the FBI not release any proof that his card was fake? There's more to the story than we are privileged to know but Germany and US seems convinced that he is guilty.
Hey Chicago, does everything you know about demjanjuk and the nazi death camps/concentration camps come that bastion of investigative journalism "Esquire Magazine" or have you really done ANY research on the topic. Have you ever met or spoken to someone who was there, have you ever seen a number tattooed on someones arm. A guard at a pow camp was very different from a guard at concentration/death camp.
I do not believe in heaven and hell, but I do believe in judgment and justice, his soul will be paying dearly for a long long time.
Why would the KGB want to vilify a simple auto worker in Ohio?
anti/latekate; He was not Russian he was a Ukraine solider that fought the Russians; the Nazi SS, used them as guards, laborers, and manual labor workers; they were not allowed to have a firearm, (the Nazis never trusted the Ukraine army, since they did not like the German army any more than the Russian army, as guards they were only allowed to carry a club, after the fall of Germany, the Ukraine army continued fighting the soviet army for another 6 months, those that did not get out were all killed , over 400 thousand solder's, Patton was outraged that the U.S., did not help the Ukraine army, he disliked the Soviets as much as the Nazis.
saxon, part of my bloodline comes from the Ukraine and no-one, not 1 single soul, of my family there survived the nazi's and their Ukrainian guards.
@antistupidity - I referenced the Esquire story because it is well-written, brief and fact based. Scott Raab, the author (who happens to be Jewish and who happens to have lost family members during the Holocaust), did the research. Esquire has received numerous awards, including multiple National Magazine Awards—the industry’s highest honor. Current award winning staff writers include Tom Junod, Scott Raab, Mike Sager, John H. Richardson, Cal Fussman, and Lisa Taddeo. Point being, Esquire is not The Globe or Star or National Enquirer.
Yes I have met people with numbers tattooed on their arm; no I have not met anyone who was at Sobibor. Neither circumstance has any relevance to my being able to read documented material and come to an opinion. That the Holocaust happened is undeniable. Whether Demjanjuk had a principle or even a minor role in the slaughter is debatable.
And once again, in case you haven't bothered to read it yet, the link the Esquire article:
http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
antistupidy' the Ukraine fought the soviets, they were not part of the German army, the Ukraine was a independent state, until it was absorbed by Russia; Stalin hated the Ukrainian people so much, he sent his henchman (Nikita Kruscherv) to the Ukraine in 1934 , they starved over 3 million; the only Ukraine citizens that were in the concentration camps, were those that were on the side of the Soviet army. when the Soviet army finally beat the Ukraine army in late 1945, they went on a killing spree in the Ukraine it is estimated that a couple of million Ukrainians died, i am sorry about your family, i can only say they were on the Soviet side, and against the Ukraine.
And the Jews that were still there.
Again, of all the Ukrainians all over the world, why did the KGB choose to make a fake nazi id for this one particular individual, what would their motive be, a spy for the west?.............we would have been protecting him them
yes you are correct about the Ukraine Jew's; what was left of the orthodox church smuggled many thousands out, many today live in Israel; as for the id, who the hell knows the reasons behind the actions of the Russian government !
@Saxon
The FBI claims that the Soviets had an interest in faking Nazi documents as part of a campaign to smear anti-communist emigres. But no evidence of Demjanjek speaking out against the Soviets exist, but I'm sure he hated them being that he was Ukrainian.
My point is the 1985 FBI reports were based on the assumption that the Nazi-era documents captured by the Soviets, were fake. But Munich never allowed the FBI to take the documents from Russia for expert examination. The Israeli and German courts on the other hand have examined his original Nazi ID card and other authentic documents.
@Chicago sceptic - I think your Esquire article is about Demjanjek's first trial in Israel where he was accused and eventually cleared of being Ivan the Terrible. Try to stay on topic.
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/04/fbi_secret_report_said_nazi_wa.html
So the evidence was a card that "appeared" to be original, and matched other cards "believed" to have been issued at an SS training camp, and that could not be confirmed as even being made during WWII? Wow, that's seems pretty ironclad to me. Not.
@latekate - The Esquire article was a summary of all events in this case including the Munich trial. The Israeli trial was referenced, I believe, to illustrate how absolutely wrong a collection of witnesses and judges can be - recall that he was convicted of being Ivan the Terrible - and to suggest that there was reasonable doubt that the collection of witnesses and prosecutors behind the Sobibor accusations were correct.
"We're sure you were Ivan the Terrible! Oh... no you weren't. But we are sure you killed Jews at Sobibor!" They were wrong once and they could be wrong again. Even in the link you posted (thanks for that by the way) there is sufficient confusion - "We're sure the ID is a fake; we're sure the ID isn't a fake" - to raise reasonable doubt about Demjanjuk's guilt.
@Chicago skeptic - It seems that a lot of posters have based their opinion of his innocence on his first trial in Israel w/o investigating the entire story. This trial did seem to cause a lot of confusion but of course that would be expected since he was not Ivan the Terrible.
If you read more about the second court case in Germany you will see that Demjanjuk was no boy scout and that he once had a SS tattoo which he had removed and also admitted this. Spain also wanted to put him on trail but Germany would not hand him over.
You have to remember that the crimes took place in Europe and they would have the proper documents regarding his case whereas the nosy USA based their verdict on assumptions after viewing Soviet documents. There were also several experts who confirmed that Demjanjuk's original Nazi ID card was the real deal. The Esquire is a men's magazine and the article read more like a personal opinion but I never read the entire story since it was so long.
Anyway's he's dead now so the world doesn't need to waste any more time on Demjanjuk who I personally believe was guilty but if you don't agree that's your right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk
Yes all these atrocities and horrors happened.I had an uncle who was a court reporter at the Nuremburg trials. It´s all true. The nazis who didn´t commit suicide were hung..Time is running out to capture the remaining criminals.Let´s hope they get them all.This demon was finally caught ..Too bad he wasn´t found much earlier.and paid the price of life in prison or execution.Now at least he is dead . and no longer on the planet.!.
you know this old man is now amongst the afterlife....if he is guilty let him be judged upstairs....the court of popular opinion doesn't have jurisdiction anymore...
Nor is there an appellate court :)
He was a prison guard, not a Nazi.
exactly! he did for his country exactly what every other soldier always does....which is commit atrocities...
Humans are a sick degenerate (and likely short lived) species....
Tomato Tamoto
j-681078
Really, well he sure did a lot of hard work for them though.
May I ask you what political party he did belong to?
I did not realize there was another one at that time.
That is just not true and you know it. The guards had to swear allegence to the Nazi party.
A lot of Germans were not, and out of fear did what they had to, to survive. Not that man, he was particularly loyal to the Nazi party.
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malocchio Comment collapsed by the community
He does not fit my description of a soldier in any way, shape or form. He was sending to their slaughter thousands upon thousands of unarmed, starving, naked civilian men, women and children.
j-681078 I must say that either you have no idea of what the requirements were for being a member of the Nazi Party or simply do not know your history. This monster was both a a Nazi that believed in what Hitler wanted and demonstrated this by being a prison guard. I doubt that he would have been able to take on the position he had at Sobibor had he not been a true believer. I also do not think that the SS was interested in giving these positions to none party members. Check your facts before speaking because you end up looking like a real fool. In other words this guy was a Nazi and prison guard and it appears that he really enjoyed what he did or he would not have been labeled a war criminal. Try to get it right next time!!!!
he never felt sorry for old jews he should have treated like he treated them
and you are not infomed! Read the article!
This poor man was on his death bed when he was sent back to Germany the last time. He was in court constantly since 1977, If Isreal couldn't find him guilty they should have let him go home to be at peace with his family. We are not to judge,
To Michael-267231- Very well said.
No one should ever excuse true Nazi atrocities. But having followed this case for years, and reading of the details of this case, I don't see where there was evidence to convict this particular person. Here was a case where they got the wrong man. And several reporters have said the same.
There was an excellent summary of this case in Esquire magazine:
http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
I followed the trial closely when I was working in Cleveland. If the Israeli Supreme Court found the evidence against him was insufficient for conviction, that should have been the end of it.
IMHO, John is simple the most recent victim of the Nazi years.
littleboyblue:
Read the fcuking article, it's is not about his trial of being mistaken as Ivan the Terrible but about his conviction of being a cold-blooded Nazi jew-killer based on the evidence of his original, proven authentic Nazi ID card.
littlekate it sounds like this is the first you have heard of this story and you didn't even read the article very well. I have also followed this case for years and there was never any evidence at all he was a "cold-blooded Nazi jew-killer". First he was a victim of Nazi Germany, then he became a victim of Nazi Israel.
I honestly don't believe he was guilty. I followed this story from the beginning and the evidence against him was circumstantial at best and downright rediculous. I'm sad for his family and that he was so far away from them when he died, that his last days were more or less alone.
Don't slam me, I'm not denying the holocaust or even that he worked as a guard, but I don't think he helped or killed anyone.
If the jews could not convict him then the Germans want an escape goat.
I agree with you Danielle - I live in the Cleveland area and from what I have read it was circumstantial. I also feel for his family.
The Holocaust DID take place. If he did or didn't help with or killed Jews, we will never know.
If you are a believer in God then he has been judged. If are are not a believer then he is gone. Let it be.
I for one am tired of hearing about this guy.
ww2 is not taught in depth at European schools, as I get it. Therefore, this weak case is one way to educate the populations about previous events.
We can look back at the Chicago POW camp during the American civil war and be shamed. We can view the many cases in the last 15 years where death row inmates in Illinois are exonerated by DNA.
Please consider the politics carefully when one person takes the hit. Even Tim McVeigh had lots of un-indicted co-conspirators.
Why do we applaud the German scientists we grabbed in May and June 1945? The one I knew was a fervent Nazi, maintaining his arrogance and superior bearing until a welcome heart attack hit hard.
maze1992......an "escape goat"? Really? So I guess they could give him the nickname 'Houdini', right? The word is "scapegoat"--look it up if you don't believe me.
Danielle
Being a guard at a POW camp means there is a set of international laws that govern its behavior, and the country that a captured soldier comes from knows he is being held captive and can advocate for him and hold his captors responsible for his care, no matter how minimal it is.
Being a guard at a concentration/death camp means there is no accountability, all prisoners are expected to be killed when they become to ill or to weak to be useful as slaves. There was no standard of care and guards were not accountable for their actions. The camps activities were kept secret from the German people. This was proven by the accounts from our GI's that marched the townspeople through the local camps after their liberation, and the reported reactions of the townspeople. Therefore to be a guard at one of these camps you had to keep what was happening there quiet, this in itself implies complicity.
Despite the Israeli supreme court believing he was guilty they felt there was insufficient evidence presented, or it had not been properly presented and as a result had to overturn the decision in order for justice to prevail. Then they refused to retry him because of the democratic principle of double jeopardy and the understanding that justice should not be clouded by revenge.
Today justice for his victims begins!!!!!
I agree with you whole heartedly Antistupidity ~ how sad.... With all the talk about being judged by our
L..d & G.d ~ even if he was guilty, God has forgiven him. It's easy to sit back and play the monday morning quarterback. But none of us came from that era and have no idea what he personally went
through! Love & Tolerance folks ~
Whatever you choose to believe, "He's Dead Jim". Now go on with your lives realizing all the changes this makes in your lives. (Heavy Sarcasm Intended)
I grew up near this guy and for at least 30 years he has been in the news. One way or the other, justice is served.
He laughed at Justice for dececds and his family knew the truth. I too am from cleveland and remeber him being wheeled out of his house in the morning to be deportaed or a court date because he could not walk. But low and behold come the afternoon here he come homes walking just fine and talking with his son. He was filmed several times like this. If HE or his family knew camares were around they played up the whole sick old dieing man act. The minute they thought no one was looking he was just fine.
He can try his con man act in hell now and I bet Satan the prince of lies is not going to fall for it.
Hmmmm... German following his orders, or American following orders?? How is one worse than the other?? Germans did what they did because they were told to. Americans were told to do what they do because they were told to. There is no "I cant do it" in the military. You do as you are told. Or else!
That's the part I can't understand. This guy was a guard, a low ranking enlisted man. His country was at war. If he didn't do what he was told, he would have been taken out and shot. Our country would not have treated our soldiers much different. If in WWII one of our soldiers was ordered to do something wrong, no matter how bad, and just decided "I'm not going to do that", he would have been shot, no different in the German army. Now days you would wind up in prison for disobeying an order, back then you would have been placed in front of a firing squad. There were a group of Nazi's that tried to get rid of Hitler during the war and failed, they were all killed by various methods of execution, this guy was just a dumb ass corporal. Just another damn soldier doing what he was ordered to do, trying to stay alive and get through the war. Funny how the winning side can't see this.
A soldier does not have to follow an unlawful order. However, he/she had better be very clear about the order being truly unlawful vs. distasteful.
Demjanjuk was not German. He was a Ukrainian Soviet and a member of the Red Army captured by the Germans. The SS trained many Soviet POW's to be camp guards. Demjanjuk was one of many throughout the Ukraine, as well as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, who collaborated with the SS. The Germans were not the only ones who hated the Jews.
Too bad that you have such a low opinion of American soldiers and the American military. There is an option, to refuse an order to commit a war crime. At the Courts Martial it all comes out and the leaders who issued the order are charged and convicted. There's one factor though, in the heat of battle the "Wolf is loose." In the case of this guy he was guarding Jews, no battle going on. He did what he did willingly because he was taught to obey orders. Ok, there's a line that American soldiers don't cross and they are taught to not cross it, no matter what the orders are. Anyway, I never heard of a officer ordering his men to cause as much pain and suffering as they can. I have heard some soldiers, when receiving orders to go to war, say that when they get their hands on one of the enemy they're going to make him squeal like a pig. Ok, but if he does it, he's going to jail. It's a sad thing but there are soldiers willing to commit atrocities, for the fun of it. Like taking three or four enemy soldiers up in a helicopter and shoving them out, one by one, just to hear the screaming. Those men don't last long in the American army if they make a habit of it.
Oh you sound so educated. In Nazi Germany if you didn't follow an order you were either shot or sent to the Eastern Front ( Russia) and were killed there. Differnet time different p[alce and you just don't get it.
I spent four years in the USAF during the early 70's. We covered unlawful orders. Not the same thing.
Read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" by Goldhagen. I have been fascinated by the period of history around the Holocaust and until reading this book, had always thought the anti-Jewish sentiment was perpetrated by Hitler and crew. Turns out apparently there had been anti-Jewish sentiment in many parts of Europe for about 200 years prior, which made it all the easier for Hitler to succeed, if you want to call it that. One of many topics Goldhagen takes up is whether or not the Nazi's and for that matter, any other person in the German army, whether forceably recruited or not, was forced to murder Jews and other less fortunates. He documents through dozens of sources of documents of court cases, witnesses, etc. that this was not the case and that the perpetrators of these atrocities did so of their own free will, although there was probably some pack mentality taking over as well. This book, while very repetitious, is very enlightening for anyone who has interest in the history of this unforunate period of time.
That book was so thoroughly trashed in true scholarly fashion by the intellectual community that I'm surprised the author just didn't go out and hang himself. Apparently he inadvertently started a fan club with you as a leading spoke-person?
Where exactly is the documentation of this trashing in "scholarly fashion?" And no, contrary to your denigrating remark, I am not a member of a fan club on any front.
J.G. you're right about anti-Jewish sentiment being almost common in Europe, especially in Poland, Russia and the Ukraine. When the German army went into Poland and then into Russia it had no trouble rounding up Jews, they were handed over willingly. By the governments? No, by the ordinary citizens who had always harbored a hatred for the Jews. In that part of the world there were Pogroms, like the anti-Jewish riots in Germany. I worked after school for a old Jew who had escaped Russia during the 1917 Revolution and he had horrible memories of Russian, White and Red, soldiers coming through his village beating and looting Jews, each side, White and Red, blaming the Jews for the Revolution. Lol, they were united on that one point. Well, anyway, Germans, under the NAZI party rule, were told that it was the fault of the Jews that Germany lost WWI, that Germany needed to be taken back and the German people must rule Germany. Fertile ground, hell, all it took was official government sanction and the Jews were dead meat. We live in dangerous times here, we hear the same thing from certain White groups like the Klan, they say that all of the problems White people are experiencing, forced integration, welfare, debt, etc. is all the fault of the Jews. "The Jews own America." How many folks do each of you know personally that agree, and wouldn't fight against another Holocaust American style? Ok, a long and round-a-bout way of explaining why many German soldiers did their part. Easy to do when you're taught that by exterminating the Jew plague you are helping to restore Germany. Yeah well, whatever. Just my opinion.
Beyond the hateful words of Hitler and his kindred spirits; and the obvious dislike of ANY RELIGION by the Russian Communistsm can you delineate the hatred of the Jewish People in Europe? I know they were looked down upon and generally mistrusted during and after the Inquisition, but why do you say they were disliked and persecuted by "Poland and the Ukraine" and that anti-Jewish sentiment was "Common" in Europe?
Never having lived during the time I can only comment by what I've read and by talking to people who survived that time. In Russia and the Ukraine it was common for Czarist cavalry, the Cossacks, to ride into predominantly Jewish villages, burning and looting. That's one reason why Jews refer to anti-Jewish people as Cossacks. Talking to a lot of Polish immigrants I heard that Jews were routinely hated. I don't think that in all of Europe at the time of Hitler there was any love lost for the Jews when they being rounded up. I know for a fact that in America there is a strong anti-Jewish sentiment, sometimes expressed openly. I communicate with people in England, France, The Netherlands and while it's not openly stated today there was, and still is a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment. Lol, going out on a limb here, that could be traced back to the Holy Roman Church and it's implementation of the Inquisition, in Spain and elsewhere. I've heard people, even French, say that the one thing Germany did wrong; "All the Jews in Europe weren't killed." Well, anyway, things are the way they are, so, there it is.
"Just following orders" Where does your moral compass sit? In the US military you can refuse an illegal order as previously stated.
If not, if you would be shot for refusing an order, would you rather be executed with a clean conscience, or live with having a hand in the systematic torture, rape, starvation and murder of tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children. Could you live with that type of blood on your hands, could you look in the mirror knowing you had a hand in an attempted genocide. There was no hiding what was going on at the camps from those who were actually there.
I think I would take the bullet, I think I would much rather have that judgement day.
Ok Anti, you say that your would rather take the bullet. By and far, the majority of people would follow the orders, to live. On that note it's interesting that to Jews, "One must always LIVE." That's why, during the "Round-up" many Jews turned in fellow Jews to the Germans. They were allowed to live and it didn't matter what their fellow Jews thought about them. Lol, before you ask me where, when that happened, look it up, it's a part of documented history.
I' am Sorry JG,
I missunderstood your post. I'm so used to dealing with RalphH "You gotta read Hoffman and Lieberman" etc.
To Ixor Kleb: After your post about the "trashing", I did look up several reviews of this book and Goldhagen. Turns out, as one would expect from such a politically-oriented writing as this book, I was able to find supporters as well as dissenters, and I even went so far as to read about sessions that were held in Germany after the book was published. I do not take anything at face value, and read this book with a lot of skepticism. Having said that, there are many passages in which he has published direct quotes from publications at the time which tend to disavow the popular belief that the guards for the Germans, be they German or otherwise, had to commit atrocities or be "shot" and apparently there were many instances in which guards/soldiers declined.
Terry says: "I spent four years in the USAF during the early 70's"
Oh? I was in during the 50's.... What was your AFSC?
Only the good die young
Beat me to it.
Liberty, what's the philosophical point there; "Only the good die young." Good AND bad die young. Ok, lol, my problem. I haven't been called "Socially challenged" for nothing. I guess I'm supposed to automatically know the point.
It was just a bad quote by liberty in an attempt at being funny.
Nazi or not, he was a guard; honestly i think he should have been in prisoned with the same conditions as those he guarded in prison. starved to near death in the freezing cold; then nursed back to health over and over again. in order to maximize the hell he put others through. "Eye for an eye", so to speak. he can be further judged and punished in the afterlife; but not before mankind takes their turn!
Wow, you seem to endorse torture of the worst kind. You really need professional help. You don't have children do you? If so I am concerned about their welfare because you are really sick.
raptor.1 - Just a little background on Demjanjuk from an excellent Esquire magazine article on the case:
Not exactly a Club Med vacation. Demjanjuk was one of thousands of Russian POWs recruited by the Germans to leave paradise and work at the Nazi death camps. Did he know where he was going? Did he know what his job would be? Did he ever imagine that 60 years later he would be accused of murdering 27,900 Jews?
Here's a link to the Esquire article: http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
It's so easy to sit in judgment when you have no idea what really happened....young teen captured by Germans...either guard duty or be shot. What would you do? The Israelis let him go....yet we sent him to Germany for ths sham of a trial....an old man who had been an American citizen for most of his life...paying taxes, raising a family. He's out of the reach of the hypocrisy now. May he rest in peace.
Raptor, what would you say about the character of those members of mankind who want to "Take a turn" at him? If any group has a right to take a turn at him it would be those survivors, and their descendants, of the Holocaust. They would have a right.
right now american soldiers are killing civilians in oil rich nations for, well, oil. in about 50 years, i wonder if a new generation of people will call those soldiers evil? at one point in time, slavery - owning another human being like you own a pet dog - was a normal thing. now it is frowned upon and outlawed. morality is in the eye of the beholder. and the TIME period the beholder beholds the morality in question
50 years? War was and is always with us. We can't know the full story because their strategy is to behave ignorant. The West needs enery. They put Israel in the middle of the pack in 1946 to protect their interest as the British gave up land. If they didn't the Arabs would play power games. Can you really blame the West for looking out for their own interest? If you want cast blame, blame humans because we are basically selfish.
scir91onYouTube
No, we are there because they killed, and planned more killings of United States citizens and foreigners on American soil, and others because they were committing genocide on a widespread level.
Crap happens in war, and sometimes the innocent die, but the intent is to save the innocent.
We have never taken any other countries oil for free, or against their will.
Afghanistan is not oil rich. North Dakota is oil rich.
Afghanistan also had nothing at all to do with 9/11--we were told it was a bunch of Saudis who perpetrated 9/11. And no genocide, much less on a widespread level, in Afghanistan either. So why are we in Afghanistan sonar guy?
Thats where al quaida and the taliban's leaders and training grounds were, afghanistan and pakistan, that's why we went there.
What oil rich nations? Afghanistan? Ok, maybe Iraq but if that's true our forces should have had embedded in them oil workers, to maintain the wells and produce the oil. Now, if we do, in fact, invade and kill civilians for oil maybe we ought to go after Iran, and, make sure we have the necessary technicians to get the oil. Personally, for logical reasons, I think we should do exactly that. Lol, ask around the next time you buy gas; "Do you think we should invade Iran and get their oil?" Want to bet what the answer would be? "Damn right, what're we paying taxes for, why are we supporting a huge military if we don't, won't, use it to maintain the quality of life for the American people?" By the way, isn't that the job of government, to look out for the interests of it's people?
Robert McNamara said this in the excellent documentary "Fog of War" regarding the fire-bombing of Japan (before the h-bomb) "If we had lost the war we (the POTUS, etc.) would all have been convicted of being war criminals"
You are totally misinformed. American soldiers are not purposefully killing civilians in oil rich countries as you stated other than some nut-ball that goes crazy. On the other-hand, the Nazi regime orchestrated the deliberate mass destruction and murder of an entire people-namely the Jews.
But was he really a Nazi? He came to American soon after the war, became a naturalized US citizen, worked in an auto plant for many years, then retired. His descendents are all US citizens.
Then Israel accused him of being "Ivan (John) the Terrible", a notorious Treblinka guard who killed many. He was extradicted to Israel, stripped of his US citizenship (for lying on the application), tried, and sentenced to death. But when the Israeli Supreme Court reviewed the case, it found that the evidence showed that he was not "Ivan the Terrible", and set him free. His US citizenship was restored.
15 years after his acquittal in Israel, Germany indicted him for being "Ivan the Not So Terrible", another guard at the Sobibor camp. He had been taken from his US home in a wheelchair to stand trial in Germany. He was convicted and waiting for his appeal in the German system when he died of natural causes at 91.
The facts re iwantrug Demjanjuk- as a 20 yr old Ukrainian owrking in a Kolhos as a tractor driver- drafted into Red Army in 1940. Taken prisoner by the German Army in 11942- sent to the Soviet camp where many perished- asked by the Nazi SS to colllaborate in KZ camps- he was trained and sent to Sobibor- his SS Camp Card No. 1393 and official date of employment 27.3.1943 (March 27,1943) He was responsible for over 28,000 deaths (Jews). Since Israeli Supreme Court reached the correct decision that John (Iwantrug) Demjanjuk was not the Ivan in Treblinka KZ- but based on his initial Displaced Person Refugee papers as a Nazi victim- he had written Sobibor (not as a Nazi KZ guard- but as an inmate-victim). German prosecutors extradited him,held a trial whereby he was found guilty but since his lawyers appealed the verdict and the Appeals Court has not yet ruled- and will not rule since he is dead)- there will be NO VERDICT OF GUILTY IN ANY JUDICIAL FINDINGS -NO COURT CAN FIND HIM ANYMORE GUILTY AS CHARGED AND TRIAL VERDICT NULL AND VOID Demjanjuk died in the Upper Bavarian resort town Bad Feilnbach - Rosenheim district (Rosenheim- Roses home/ Rose buds)tThe final verdict- since Demjanjuk is a STATELESS person- stripped of US citizenship and never applied for Ukrainian citizenship rights (he had been found and tried as a Nazi war collaborator there) and since DEAD CORPSES WITHOUT A PASSPORT CANNOT TRAVEL- he will be buried in Germany as a stateless pauper grave.
mimi - It is interesting how Demjanjuk was determined to have killed 27,900 Jews:
It is mind boggling to believe that this simple Russian POW conscripted to serve as a common laborer at a Nazi death camp could somehow be responsible for every single Jewish prisoner who died there! Esquire magazine published an excellent article about this case:
http://www.esquire.com/features/john-demjanjuk-1109
Chicago skeptic, it's as if the majority of people posting here just can't be bothered with facts or the truth--either that or what you've posted is completely invisible to them for some strange reason!
Ditto. Running your mouth before reading the article or knowing any of the facts seems to be the latest pastime in the US. I am positive reading a story in Esquire is WAY above the reading level on this site. So sad that we are becoming the stereotype--big, fat, loudmouth ignoramuses with no compassion or understanding--and very low IQ's.
El Jeffe, was he really a Nazi? What does it matter what German political party he belonged to, Nazi or whatever? If a guy picks the lock that gains entry into a house and someone with him goes in and kills the folks there, the lock-picker is as guilty of murder as the guy doing the killing. The guy was a guard, and what does a guard do? He keeps people confined, in his case the Jews, so they don't escape and can be killed with full government sanction. He's as guilty as the person who shoots them, or burns them alive. He's guilty by associatiion.
All these guys seem to live into old age, so much for justice in this world. The Cambodian Pol Pot died with his grand kids and this miserable SOB gets to die in a German old folks home swapping tales with other old Nazis'. The world needs to do better on this stuff. In our own time, people lie us into war, killing hundreds of thousands, and then make speeches to the Chamber of Commerce. God Bless Wiesenthal for what he did, we need more like him.
Not all the guys lived to old age - the Soviet soldiers who were captured by the Germans were put to death if they returned home. Whether they collaborated with the Nazis or not, they were damaged goods. The POWs who survived had short miserable lives if they were returned to Stalin.
he should have died when he was convicted!!!! At least it would have been done humanely.
World War II ended 67 years ago. It is over. Let's apply a tiny amount of common sense. Those who were involved in WWII are almost gone - American, German, Russian, Japanese, British, French, etc. They are rapidly dying off. The youngest person who could possibly be prosecuted is 85 years over. The war is over. It is time to move.
Additionally, the millions of dollars spent in prosecuting him were wasted and the millions of dollars that continue to be spent to hunt down drooling old men in wheelchairs is being wasted. The entire office in the Department of Justice that supports the hunt for Nazi war criminals, and any elements that support them, should be disbanded and the money cut from the DoJ budget and the employees terminated from government employment.
A sign of a civilized society is a willingness to forgive and move on. Learn from the past, but do not dwell in it. It's over.
So if a man committed a very brutal murder when he was 20yrs old and was not caught until he was 50yrs old(according to your logic) should be let go? He killed someone 30yrs ago....its in the past......waste too much of our money(that otherwise could be given to welfare or illegal immigrants or support Iraq or Pakistan).......civilized society........lets forget it and watch amercan idol........
People have to answer for what they do.
STUPID!
NO EXPIRATION DATE ON MURDER OF ANY KIND!
Excellent point, but people won't move on to better times because we remember the past, remember the old hatreds that brought on war, and so we feed those memories with more hatred. I had a Jewish teacher, taught the class on journalism. He had us all write a report on Brotherhood Week. My report was like; "Forget Brotherhood Week, all it does is make us remember why we hate certain groups of people like Blacks and Jews." He read it in class and one Jewish girl turned around; "Why do you hate Jews so much?" Lol, hatred goes both ways but it only takes one group to start it against another group.
There is no proof that he murdered anyone...can't you read? This is like a game of rumor.
Perspective,
It is now 67 years since the end of WWII and Demjanjuk was one of the last direct links to the monsters of the Nazi regime that were responsible for the horrors of the Holocast. The tangent issue seems to be that the human species, fueled by twisted political ideologies and religious zealotry, remains so eager and capable of generating distrust, fear, hate, war and death. One has to wonder if humanity will ever be able to rise above our primitive instincts and our seemingly pervasive penchant for destruction and violence.
Peace to all
Steve, we probably won't rise above our primitive instincts, and, that may be good because it was, and is, our primitive instincts, our penchant for destruction and violence, that has made us, Man, the baddest of the bad on Earth. Would a species docile and loving toward all the other members of it's species have gone so far, accomplished so much, provided so much for each member of it's species? Granted, we have the intellectual ability to use logic and reason, and, we also have the dangerous factor of emotionalism. When we back up our emotionalism with logic and reason we usually use logic and reason to excuse excesses like torture and war to get what our emotionalism tells us we should get; Everything. Lol, we, Man, really have problems when emotionalism comes face to face with compassion. Some say we are losing our humanity. So, which is the more human condition; To hunt, kill, dominate or is it to love one another, to be docile and sensitive to others? History proves that the former builds a lasting, strong and sovereign society while the latter simply provides prey to the former. Well, fortunately, the great majority get by without adopting the radical extremes of either. There are only a very few Adolph Hitlers, Joseph Stalins, Mother Theresas. But, all of us have a degree of the "Wolf" in us and sometimes it doesn't take much to turn that wolf loose.
mellowfello ..
Yes, the thought was nicely presented. It is unfortunate that we humans share this strange dichotomy of trying to balance our humanity with our latent quest for dominance though aggression. Very little has really changed since we emerged from the primordial ooze so to speak. I'm sure that intelligent early humans had similar thoughts, even within the context of their primal world. The venerable playwright Oscar Wilde once remarked; 'The veneer of civilization is indeed very thin." Thanks for the post.
Peace
The catholic church has lost one of their own. Will the pope be delivering the eulogy?
Leroy, Ukrainians for the most part are Ukrainian Catholic in the West and Eastern Orthodox in the east and neither is Roman Catholic so the pope has nothing to do with it. The Soviets had killed off most of the priests in the country in the 30's so religion wasn't openly practiced to boot. Please try researching a topic before commenting on it.
Paul, turn on the memory switch, remember the controversy, the pope was a member of the hitler youth
anti,
For heavens sake, he was just a little boy. I just returned from cub scout pinewood derby and I would hate to think that some future day any particiapant would get a wet noodle lash for that activity.
Yay! My pinewood derby car was FAST! And ORANGE!
American fascist war criminals Ex.president George W. Bush, Dick Cheney,Paul Wolfowitz,Donald rumsfeld among others are still at large. They are wealthy and they will stay that way.
Your only a war criminal if you are the loser?
Alas, the world will be engulfed in mushroom clouds before economic Nobel peace prize winners finally admit their lunacy and that the false cause they have spent their lives defending, has been a lie. In the meantime, everyone else will continue to suffer. That is the only thing that is guaranteed: after all, it is the definition of insanity. And those in the status quo doing all they can to preserve their, well, status, are now all insane.
NAZI's know best
"TRUTH is the enemy of the STATE"
Paul Joseph Goebbels was a German politician and Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany
Would we have attacked Iraq if we knew the truth?
Will we attack Iran if we knew the truth?
"Of course the people don't want war.
But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
Herman Goering
Nuremberg Trials
C'mon, enough with the standard anti-Bush rants. GET OFF IT, ALREADY!!! Why don't you go back to the Vietnam era and condemn JFK. LBJ, Dean Rusk and Robert McNamara?!?!? They're responsible for more deaths (American and Southeast Asian) by far than what you imagine Bush and his "cronies" are! Get off Bush's case and dump on the "Butcher of Vietnam" Lyndon Baines Johnson!!!
I have so many mixed feelings about this man. The many trials he went through, his denials, and his final conviction. I'm glad this is over, till the next time I suppose.
Don't suppose there are going to be any more trials of Nazi war criminals. But I'm with you on the mixed feelings...if he was a guard at Sobibor, then I hope he's burning in hell right now....if he was what he says he was, which he maintained till the end then he's had a colossal injustice done to him that absolutely cannot be made up to him or his family. I can't think of any fate worse then being a Russian prisoner of the Nazis, then being tormented and persecuted as a nazi because of mistaken identity.
One of Bush2 buddies has died.
Idiot
Idiot doesn't even come close to what that dolt is
Yes, I do wonder if Bush 2 will be prosecuted for killing all those Muslims, actually very little difference in their stories!--Except off course he is American (US)
IDIOT. No comparison.
Why is this "breaking news"?
Because the Demjanjuk story caught everyone's attention. Many were fascinated with it.
Guess your right.....breaking news should be the new book on Oprah's book club......
Rick10...the word is you're...NOT YOUR!
Yo Jesse, hey guy, is that it? Is that your, you're, yourre, whatever, contribution? Cool man, youse wins dat trophy, lol.