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Subscribe to RSSA mass manhunt is underway for the person who killed four people at a Jewish school in Toulouse, France. NBC's Jim Maceda reports.
Updated at 10:30 p.m. ET: The gunman who fatally shot three children a young rabbi at a Jewish school in Toulouse, France on Monday remains at large after fleeing the scene on a moped through the city's backstreets. The killer has been described by French media as the "most wanted man in France," since President Nicolas Sarkozy said the bullets from a .45-caliber pistol he used matched one that was used in two previous fatal attacks in the last two weeks.
"This act is horrific and cannot remain unpunished," Sarkozy said in a televised address, adding that the terrorism alert level in France had been raised to its highest level ever. Sarkozy flew to Toulouse.
The killer was described as a short, overweight man who behaved calmly and appeared to handle his weapons with ease. He wears a helmet and rides the same stolen scooter. His victims have been ethnic minorities -- Jewish, North African or Jewish -- witnesses have said that in one of the attacks, the killer pushed aside a bystander to get to his victims, the BBC reported.
According to Le Figaro, a French newspaper, Sgt. Imad Ibn-Ziaten had posted a classified advertisement selling a motorcycle, and the suspect made plans to see it on Sunday, March 11. Ibn-Ziaten waited behind a school in a quiet area of Toulouse, essentially waiting for his killer to show up.
Because of these details, some fear the suspect may be a serial killer driven by racism.
"Everything leads one to believe that these were racist and anti-Semitic acts," Toulouse Mayor Pierre Cohen said on BFM-TV.
The gunman arrived at the Ozar-Hatorah middle and high school around 8:15 a.m. Monday morning and shot at people waiting on the curb for a shuttle, LaDepeche, the Toulouse newspaper reported. He killed 30-year old Hebrew teacher Jonathan Sandler, his two children, Arye, 6, and Gabriel, 3; and Miriam Monsonego, 8, the daughter of the school principal, Toulouse prosecutor Michel Valet said.
The gunman chased 8-year-old Miriam into the concrete courtyard, stopping her by her hair, The New York Times reported. That's when his gun jammed. Still holding her, he switched weapons and shot her in the head.
A 17-year-old was seriously wounded.
Some 120 investigators were working on a manhunt for the killer and had already identified the license plate of the motorbike used in Monday's attack at the private Ozar Hatorah school, police sources said. The gunman used a second gun when the first jammed, the Toulouse prosecutor said.
French media said that security was being tightened at all Jewish schools in the country.
Religious minorities and issues of race have emerged as a prominent issue in France's current presidential campaign. The soldiers killed and injured were of North African and French Caribbean origin.
The assailant used a heavy-caliber firearm and another weapon. At least 15 shots were fired.
Nicole Yardeni, a local Jewish official who saw security video of the attack from the single camera near the school gate, described the shooter as "determined, athletic and well-toned." She said he wore a helmet with the visor down.
"You see a man park his motorcycle, start to shoot, enter the school grounds and chase children to catch one and shoot a bullet into her head," Yardeni said. "It's unbearable to watch and you can't watch anymore after that. He was looking to kill."
Parents who witnessed the incident -- which happened shortly before 8 a.m. local time (3 a.m. ET), as children were being dropped off at the school -- described the scene.
"I saw two people dead in front of the school, an adult and a child ... Inside, it was a vision of horror, the bodies of two small children," a distraught father told RTL radio, Reuters reported.
PhotoBlog: Images from the scene of the Toulouse school shooting
"I did not find my son, apparently he fled when he saw what happened. How can they attack something as sacred as a school, attack children only sixty centimeters [about two feet] tall?'' he added.
"It was terrible ... It felt like it lasted a long time," Charles Ben Semoun, a parent of a child at the school, told i-tele television, the Bloomberg news service said.
It was the worst anti-Semitic incident in France since August 1982, when six people were killed in a grenade attack and subsequent shooting at the Goldenberg restaurant in a Jewish neighborhood on Rue des Rosiers in central Paris. France's 600,000-strong Jewish community is Europe's largest.
The bodies were brought in hearses to the school Monday night for an evening vigil. All of the dead had joint Israeli-French citizenship and will be buried in Israel, the Israel Foreign Ministry said.
Monday's shootings come days after three soldiers were killed in two separate shootings in the same area by a man who also escaped from the scene by motorbike.
On March 10, a gunman shot and killed a paratrooper in Toulouse. Last Thursday, a masked gunman on a motorbike opened fire on three uniformed paratroopers at an ATM machine in Montauban, about 30 miles from Toulouse, killing two and critically wounding the other.
NBC News, The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
More from msnbc.com and NBC News:
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- Cuba detains 70 'Ladies in White' ahead of Pope visit
- Report: 'I am the real dictator,' wife of Syria's Bashar Assad says
- US teacher killed in Yemen; al-Qaida link seen
- American reportedly held hostage in Iraq released
Follow us on Twitter: @msnbc_world
Leave a Comment:
good to know that gun control works so well in Europe. we should have it here too.
Well. . .
That's why the rate of homicide in France is only a fifth of what it is in the US. Face it, gun control works!
Wait, they have strict gun control laws in France/Europe. How did this person get one? Eric Holder, perhaps?
Ignorance abounds when it comes to those against gun control. Take a rare instance when it happens in Europe and run with it. Check this out.
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide
Suicide
Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001)
3.98
5.92
0.36
Italy (1997)
0.81
1.1
0.07
Switzerland (1998)
0.50
5.8
0.10
Canada (2002)
0.4
2.0
0.04
Finland (2003)
0.35
4.45
0.10
Australia (2001)
0.24
1.34
0.10
France (2001)
0.21
3.4
0.49
England/Wales (2002)
0.15
0.2
0.03
Scotland (2002)
0.06
0.2
0.02
Japan (2002)
0.02
0.04
0
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.
Cant argue with facts, all you gun freaks out there. Oh, right. This is a left wing conspiracy.
Better a gun freak, that gun phobic.
you're an idiot or maybe you're just 14yo because you reason like one. just because there are a FEW murders by handguns doesn't mean that gun control doesn't work.....compare the INSANITY the multi THOUSANDS of murders in the US you dip shiite!!gun control DOES work except in the US because you are all gun addicted murder/killing machines!!!
John T. - 1446887
Your facts are less the honest. Mexico has the strictest gun control in the world, and they are the murder capital.
Bruce, well said. I think it would apply to Dramapsycho also.
What I like is that none of the gun control freaks take into account that most of the countries listed have less severe drug laws than the US. Poverty and addiction lead many people to do terrible things. Learn all the facts, don't just pick and choose what fits your side.
Jew on Jew crime is so horrible.
As far as gun control F off. It is a right so live with it. If you don't want shot... try to avoid being a victim.
where is the public outrage over the killing of children??? Everyone went off on the Afghanistan murders but the killing of Jewish children is ok? what a bunch of hypocrites
Jaison, so what is your excuse for Mexico then? Typical right wing wacko who cannot accept the "facts". I provided some facts and yet they are never to the satisfaction of the gun slinging tea-baggers. We see that gun control works and by the way, it is the United States that is Mexico's biggest customer for drugs. We are also the ones that provide guns to the drug cartels in Mexico. Seems like if you get rid of guns, you get rid of most of the problems related to gun violence but of course, you haven't figured that out yet because there are not enough facts to base your rhetoric on.
Jew on Jew crime? Did you read the article Mark? Your critical thinking skills are lacking as well. So are you saying that where there is gun control, it is unconstitutional?
I first would like to congratulate you on your apparent ability to misunderstand a person completely yet still feel like a smug, freedom-robbing sheep. The only reason gun crime is so high is because of our severe drug laws, when you could go to prison for life you would get strapped too. You haven't yet grasped what is wrong with your argument, luckily, I can help you see it. Gun control doesn't solve the issue any more than prohibition did with alcohol. Criminals get guns regardless of the law, that's why they're criminals, you see? Robbing people of a basic right to protection is as absurd as your assumption of my political affiliation. That's what happens when you let your emotional attachment get in the way of logic. Anyway, I'm done here, hopefully you pulled your head out of your ass after our discussion.
John T.-1446887 Sorry to blow smoke up your *** but U.S. 2010 intentional murder rate was 4.7% . The European intention murder rate was 3.5%. Seems that if you really want to kill someone a gun isn't necessarily the answer.
http ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
remember to take the space away between http and :
And if you don't mind being racist, remove from the U.S. statistic homicides committed by Afro Americans and Latins. Then it drops way below the European rate.
@Mark-1219747's awww look, the inbred spewed some stupidity - must suck that you need a gun to prove your "manhood"
@FedupwithFed what do you mean where's the outrage? This story was just reported & aside from the odd stupid comment here, I don't see the story being buried. While it's very sad and probably motivated by anti-semitism, this crime does not compare to the level of carnage in the Afghanistan slaughter perpetrated by one of our own soldiers and it's unreasonable to expect the level of media coverage we're seeing from the Afghan situation.
It is bad enough when adults kill other adults, but attacking/killing children is about as low as you can get.
The comments here about this tragedy are too political or biased. Here we have a situation where a teacher and children died, and the only response is based on an agenda (those for or against gun control - or those that feel happy to irritate a right or left wing leaning). It is clear that these killings are tied to the situation in the middle east and the violent factions that perpetuate violence with impunity because after all, this kind of situation is common place. A teacher died. Children died. If this indifference comes from the teacher and the children being Jewish, then we are beyond the pale. And this will come to our shores. It's just a matter of time. When our children and teachers die will that make it less acceptable? For shame...
Jaison, age old arguments by the right don't fly anymore. The world is changing and so should you. Gun control and prohibition are two very separate arguments. I am sure that those more civilized societies that have gun control in place do not feel that their "basic right to protect" has been violated. We have a violent society and we need to start fixing it. I don't believe in taking away guns but believe in controlling who purchase guns. This is where the right really hasn't a clue, gun control is not taking away everyone's guns but controlling who gets them. I live in a state that has very strict gun controls but I can own one and use it for hunting. What is with all these freaks out there that are hording weapons and ammo? They believe Obama is going to take away their guns and it hasn't happened yet and won't happen. Don't get so paranoid you right wingers.
So I see people are already using this to bring up the same old arguments about gun control, I suggest a compromise, how about you can have all the guns you like just as long as they are single shot muskets or shot-guns. I mean seriously who the hell needs an AK for hunting?
Although I'm in favor of more strict gun control homicide statistics are misleading since most are committed with illegal weapons anyway. Those that weren't would likely occur anyway using a different weapon (domestics and suicides). Accidental shootings are more the concern with gun control. However in this situation, the illustration is better noted between these gunmen who sound to be terrorist, the burning of the Korans and the soldier who went off as they're likely related. And the difference is between murdering bastards, and an accidental insult and a poor soal with PTSD and probably traumatic brain injury. Wrong illustration for gun control discussion. It sounds as if this scum didn't have guns they'd have had bombs.
Bob really like eric holder has nothing better to do than go to france and convince a guy to shoot a bunch of children. you are a sick man
Gun Control, No Gun Control, it doesn't matter, those who want guns will be able to get them and those who don't will not. I will always own one or more guns, if the laws change the only thing in my life that will change is whether I own those guns legally or illegaly, the fact of me owning guns will not change.
Gun control is being able to hit your target. For all of those against guns, they are what provided you with the First Amendment.
I'll give up my 2nd Amendment, when YOU give up your FIRST.
Good point Logic but I have to ask, what kind of guns would/do you own? After all there is a big difference between the amounts of harm one can do with a 6 shot single action revolver over say a 30 round semi-automatic rifle
So the Gun Men in France has killed Soldiers and now a Jewish man and Jewish Children.
Profile anyone?
Male, Muslim, In his 20's or 30's.
So where does it say one must be a right wing tea-bagger to own guns? I am quite offended by that remark and find it quite bigoted. I don't care what color your skin is, gay or straight or if you spread peanut butter on your genitals and have your dog lick it off. People like you are the reason people like me have to worry about the flakes the gop are shoving down our throats. Oh, I almost forgot.Blow me.
Guns dont kill people, people kill people.
Anything is better than a suicide bomber..
Aside from these probable terrorist attacks, France may have one such shooting spree every year or so. In the United States, they are so common as to scarcely constitute news, except to the victims.
But hey, keep dreaming the dream.
If gun control is the answer than why is it that america doesn't even rank in the 35 least contries in the world. Japan however has very strict laws and almost no murder by guns. I wil give you that crimanal will always get guns. I prersonally love my guns i have over 30 but i would give them up in a minute. If our country would deal with the real problems like the 40 or so yrs of usless war on drugs, etc. etc.
Its not stricter gun control policy, its society. You dont have gangs there like you do here. The subculture of crime isn't there like it is here, out in the open where rap songs glorify it.
Odd that you should call people stupid, guess you missed the COH? People were calling for blood in Afghanistan and today, people are complaining about gun control while Jewish children were killed in school! Doesn’t compare? Unreasonable to expect outrage? Why, because they were “just Jews?” They were children! It’s just a double standard.
I ask America not to treat this Staff Sergeant any differently from Sergeant Hasan Akbar, who in 2003, threw hand grenades and fired his weapon into the tents of his Commanding Officers, killing several. He was not placed in pre-trial confinement in Fort Leavenworth and was tried at his home Army installation, Fort Campbell.
Then there is Army Major Malik Nadal Hassan, who still awaits trial after more than two years since he allegedly gunned down 43 Army soldiers and civilians killing 13 people. Hassan has not been sent to pre-trial confinement in Fort Leavenworth, and his attack has been officially termed “workplace violence.”
My point is this, let our leadership- not the media- determine the fate of Staff Sergeant Bales. Let us not offer him up as some type of “appeasement” to President Hamid Karzai, who would not be in his own position of power without the sacrifices of the American taxpayer as well as the American warrior. I want to see the military legal system work its own will and not the will of the political gods.
John...you live in a fantasy world.Drugs are illegal and we know how ouir Govenment handles that situation.What makes you honestly believe gun control will work any better?You can give me all the data in the world and it won't make a bit of difference in gun violence.Like prohibition,there will always be a market for guns.your never going to be able to regulate it.
By the way,I don't own a gun and never will.I for one have no use for one.I have one brother who owns a couple because he loves to dfeer hunt and duck hunt.
I currently own a 12 Gauge Shot Gun (3 round Pump), a 40 Caliper Hand Gun (10 rounds Semi automatic), and a AR15 .223 (30 round semi automatic).
Yes, your right I could probably do more harm with my 30 round AR15 then a 6 shot revolver. But I could probably do just as much if not more damage with my hand gun that only holds 10 rounds. It takes 2-3 seconds to change clips and at close range is easier to handle then a rifle. But the biggest point is none of my guns will ever kill anyone because that is not why I own them. I'm a law abiding, tax paying citizen who owns fire arms. Had me and my guns been at this school everyone would of screamed how dangerous, yet I would of for the first time ever tried to use my guns for harm (against the gunmen) in hopes to try and save those kids.
Guns in the hands of a good man can do good, guns in the hands of an evil man will always do evil, the key is to let the good be armed.
That's just funny!
Although , maybe we should outlaw forks, we are after all a very over weight nation. ;)
Such a senseless tragedy... killing innocent kids and a rabbi... what a bunch of animals, these killers... my condolences to the victim's families.
Gun control doesn't work and guns are not the problem. The US has all these "immigrants" or illegals from mexico, asia, the mid east, etc to deal with. No other country has the illegal problem we have so let's compare apples to apples. These people are a serious problem in our country.
LogicReguired
“Guns in the hands of a good man can do good”
I guess that all depends on what your definition of good is really doesn’t it? I do agree though that just because you own a gun doesn’t mean you’re going to shoot someone, but that being said I do think there should be more thought into owning guns (I say thought because just like any commodity some people just buy them for no reason) and as I really have to wonder the reasoning behind privately owning AR15s and other such weapons. Personally if I was in charge of gun policy I would experiment with limits on magazine sizes and rates of fire for civilian owned guns as opposed to just trying to ban them all
Max, I believed you are the only one to offer your condolences to the Family and not go to gun control etc, etc.
Thank you.
Posters your level of apathy for the horrific murder of three innocent and defenceless children and a peaceful religious leader is well - quite disturbing. I can't comprehend, do people somehow feel these murders are justified and deserving because the victims are Jewish? Please someone explain because I feel sickened by humanity today.
Gun control reduces gun violence. Lots of guns reduces gun violence. Both are true and proven statements. The difference is for the former case, the government has control over the level of violence. For the latter case, the individual and the citizenry have control over the level of violence. Liberals prefer government control. Freedom-loving people prefer control by the citizens. In individual gun-related incidents, the victims would like to have a gun available. Nobody wants to die. Also, when the government is in control of firearms and the citizenry has little or no access to guns, it's just a matter of time before the government has TOTAL control, and that is called tyranny.
Murdering the unsuspecting, the innocent, the defenseless, the civilian, the children:
Just another brave Islamic holy warrior just doing what Islamic holy warriors do best.
NRA mentality- "If everyone of those children would have been armed this shooter wouldn't have gotten away with this"
@Fedup
#1 - did you read Mark's comment, take a look at it now:
you consider that necessary, appropriate or even remotely substantiated? It was a stupid and incendiary comment and I called him out for that.
I am as horrified and saddened by this rampage as I would be if the people killed were a Pastor and children, an Imam and children or an atheist and children (BTW - I'm Jewish so don't even try to call me an anti-semite or self loathing Jew because I am neither of those). I do not care any less because they are Jewish and I do not care any more because they and I share the same religion (and I'm sure they were killed because they were Jewish). The murder of an innocent child is always and should always be an outrage regardless of race, nationality or religious persuasion, regardless of whether it is a hate crime, child abuse or some @hole having fun during a drive-by. Unfortunately, we live in a pretty sick world where that sort of stuff is commonplace. Tell me, do you go searching for every report of every child murdered and raise high holy hell that there isn't an all out media focus to show what you would consider an appropriate level of outrage?
Unfortunately, in the sick world we inhabit, it's a bit much to expect the level of outrage in the US for this case as we have with the rampage in Afghanistan; while the degree of devastation for each victim and those who knew and cared for them is equal the overall degree of devastation (the sheer # of people, children included, who were massacred) and the potential for escalation after the event in Afghanistan which was caused by an active duty American soldier warrants a higher level of media coverage here.
Adam44
I don’t know Adam it could have been a Christian Holy Warrior just like Norway, or maybe it was some delusional nut job who thinks the French Military is working for the evil Jewish bankers. Maybe we should keep the anti-Islam stuff at half bore until we know more hmm :)
@ JaneCruise and latekate I completely agree, of all the comments on this string (at the moment) there are only 3 that actually are commenting on the story!!!!! Children died!!!! A rabbi died!!!! 3 soldiers died!!! What is the matter with you peple. This story is not about US policy and law....IT'S ABOUT TERRORISM and MURDER! Put the muzzle on your politics once in a while and look around the world, there are other things going on that need as much vocalization and outrage, it's place so to speak and this story is not it!
That being said.......
Wishing peace and comfort to the families of these killings, from my family to yours.
So do I. This has nouthing to do with gun control. I guess these people have no Heart.
Jane
I don't think it has anything to do with that. We read about these tragedies almost every day and most people are debating possible solutions. Expressions of horror are certainly appropriate, but what good is 80 posts all saying OMG? If people didn't care, they wouldn't bother to debate. I do wish we could come up with something different, though. The gun control debate goes nowhere.
This sounds like a terrorist attack, especially given that the guy's gun jammed. They are always such inept morons, and yet they continue to successfully murder us.
Uh, Los, the "anti-Islam stuff" as you put it, fits the pattern perfectly. That's why I applied it. The Norway case was a rare exception and the guy was not even religious, never prayed or attended church, how "Christian" could he be?
Could this be an atrocity by a Christian? a Buddhist? A Zoroastrian? Sure it could, but that's not very likely. So I point to the LIKELY perpetrator, based on hundreds of attacks just like in recent years, not based on one or two exceptons.
Hopefully we'll find out soon and the guy is STOPPED from killing more innocents.
Adam44
Did not the Norway killer identify himself as Christian? Shouldn’t that be enough since we apply the same rules to Muslims? But your right this does fit the commonly conceived pattern, just like SGT Bales actions fits the common conceived pattern of the US military killing innocents. My point is that just because it fits now (with little evidence) doesn’t mean it’ll still fit later when we know more.
I do agree though in hoping the gulity party gets caught and soon
John T 144...
Your post about European Murder rates due to gun control; you should take Switzerland off that list because citizens ( male I think but could be wrong) must be armed to vote. Also what you would consider assault weapons are kept at home for immediate use. I believe these are the equivalent to those weapons controlled by the N.F.A. of 1934. In short Switzerland is a heavily armed country.
It's not gun control that's needed, but Moslem control.
Yes, so when do 2 wrongs make a right? That’s what ignore author is for…or report him if you want to.
No, just as you called out Mark, and then me, I called YOU out but note that I didn’t call you stupid for it. This isn’t about gun control, children were murdered but the PC liberal media and many posters on NV have a double standard when it comes to those children being Jewish or muslim, as does our administration when they have to apologize and cater to muslims but not to American soldiers who fought for our country and don’t hold those same standards to muslim American soldiers when they kill. Think about it.
People always jump on assualt weapons! Question, how many murders are actually commited USING assualt weapons? Handguns are the majority with shotguns following.
It's a shame we saved Europe from the Germans just to have it over run by Muslim Arabs. Why are Europeans so weak?
John T.-1446887
Well although I'm against gun control I will agree with you when you say our society is violent. But your not going to change that easily. To many people love guns. It's rooted in our culture. In Europe it's taboo to show violence, but not pornography. In America it's the exact opposite. It's my opinion people like you should get guns. People that dont want to use them, use them more wisely than anyone else.
John T 144...
Number of current gun laws in U.S.A. state and federal over thirty thousand yes over 30000. Right now it is a federal offense for a convicted felon to even touch any kind of firearm or to touch any kind of ammunition. Kind of lays to waste the idea of we need more of the same.
Come on, both sides. It is not nearly as simple as gun control or not. It is a combination of many factors. Mexico has tight gun control laws, but no way to enforce them combined with stifling poverty. Won't work.
Europe has tight gun control laws but is a stable fairly socialists society. They can successfully enforce the laws, and have solid programs than do not make people desperate. Desperate people commit crimes, they will use guns, knives, whatever they can get their hands on. Europe is in worse shape everyday, crime will continue to rise like it has in Greece and Italy if they continue to let go of their social programs. On the other hand, they can no longer afford them, so it will be interesting to monitor how European crime rises as people become more desperate.
In America, we have a stable society that can enforce the laws, but very lax laws. Even if some states are tightly controlled, guns can still be gotten. The illegal trade market for them is huge, and we have more desperate people than most areas in Europe. Desperation leads to crime.
Gun control is useful, but it has to come with social measures to reduce desperation of the populace, or it is all in vain. There must also be a strong ability to enforce the laws. If all the "right wing nut jobs" were not afraid of the high probability of home invasions, car jackings, muggings, maybe they would not be so inclined to want to arm themselves. And despite what anyone wants to say on the right, there really is no need for the average citizen to have assault rifles, they are weapons of war, plain and simple. You never, and I repeat NEVER, hear of a home owner using an AK or and AR to efend their family from a home invasion, hand gun yes, AR, no. You do often hear of the criminals using these weapons to attack and destroy.
Sorry for rambling, but stop beating the drums for one side, either side, that is inherently flawed and refuses to look at a well rounded picture.
"How can they attack something as sacred as a school, attack children only sixty centimeters [about two feet] tall?'' he added
??. Hmm, well because these people are animals who need to be put on the extinct list. They are not Freedom Fights, or Oppressed People, or anything else other than POS that use religion as their excuse for their irrelevant life. The sooner each govt wipes out these people in their country, the better.
As for gun control, these are LA Gang Bangers, these are groups funded by rogue governments. Do you really think that a law saying "no guns allowed" will make any difference at all? Cmon, wake up.
He identified himself as a Christian in the same way and for the same reason that Hitler identified himself as a Christian, i.e. in order to hopefully manipulate Christians into following him/them instead of Christianity.
We apply the rule to Muslims because their attacks are most often explicitly religious in nature with Qur'anic chapter and verse justifications and shouts of ALLAH IS GREAT!! at the top of their lungs while they stab, shoot, and kill. Did the Norwegian "Christan" killer construct any kind of theological framework or justification for his action? No. Not only didn't he, he couldn't have.
Exceptions don't provide patterns and can therefore be shown as anomalies. It's when a pattern of crimes has clear and consistent origin, i.e. a religious origin, e.g. as with Islam inspiring terrorist acts in its name, that one is wise to take note and be on guard. You keep pointing to anomalies and making the mistake of equating them with consistent patterns. It's like claiming that the chance for an major earthquake in Kansas is the same as the chance of a major earthquake in Los Angeles, because they had a small one in Topeka last year. Or that the chance for an F-5 tornado is the same in Los Angeles as it is in Topeka KS because there was a waterspout off Venice Beach a few years ago. Exceptions and anomolies should not unfocus one's mind. If you live in KS, prepare for a tornado. If you live in L.A., prepare for an earthquake.
But the odds are pretty darned good that these crimes will fit Islamic jihad both now AND later once we know exactly whoddunit. Not much worse than for a tornado in Kansas when the full slate of terror in the name of Islam is calculated.
One sad part of this,is the fact that the perps are probably living off the dole in France. The immigration problem is affecting France in every way. There is no doubt in my mind that this was pulled off by a foreignor, low life who cant make it in the world, and blames all their problems on others then turns around and takes it out on the ones around them in the name of religion.
They are not only biting the hand that feeds them, they are killing it. How sad for the children, and the Rabbi. RIP.
@Losmuertos
Yes, because shotguns are less deadly than other firearms. You could apply that logic, but then people are just going to buy more Saiga 12 type shotguns.
If gun control worked then LA would be crime free, and states like Indiana and Florida would be running red with the blood of innocents and small children.
Tell that to that soldier.........
John I call BS on your numbers. THE number 1 cause of death in the USA ages 1-44 is accidental death and in later years it becomes health related. See the CDC and recrunch some numbers there. Additional years are also available there. Aes 15-24 homicide and suicide are numbers 2 and 3 and even then accidental death outnumbers both combined.
Jasmine, We have, as a nation, told that to that Soldier. His name is Bales. I hear no one, anywhere, supporting what he did. He will be charged, convicted, and punished for his grave crimes. They were as low as they get. Same as killing innocent children at school in France.
ok i will admit when you use gun crime statistics we rank, because we allow guns. then what you are doing in this case is setting the topic up for fail, because OF COURSE we have more crimes committed BY guns.
Then there should be a proper way of looking at it, murders as a whole. why concentrate on the methods, when you should be concentrating on the actual problem. people killing people. who gives a sh!t with what someone used to kill someone? they killed, period. when you look at muder capita, look at your gun control results. looks like more muders in the gun controlled countries than any without. look at how great Mexico is now with their long time keeping people suppressed. think if the people who actually love that country would lay down for a bunch of thugs? would we do it here? some of you would, not me.
when you look at continental statistics. its awful.
i mean if you want to use banning guns as a reason to "save lives" your obviously not seeing the result of leading nations for liberal gun controls stats. your mission is a failure if you think it is saving anyone. try cutting one head 2 come back? why not do some thing to prevent killing period. taking guns away isnt the deterrant obviously. just attack the thing that scares you the most, but keeps our murder levels lower, AND WE HAVE GUNS! hahahahahahaaaa!
sry, but this is a big rub, (juicy handful) for the gun control freaks. maybe someone with link posting powers that will agree, can google "violent crime rates by country" and post the links.
You're right illegals are a problem......Native Americans whole heartedly agree with that statement. -_- God can you get anymore ignorant? (Rhetorical I know the answer is yes)
Please just STFU because what your selective mind refuses to remember is that immigrants are what MADE and MAKE THIS COUNTRY. Without immigrants you wouldn't have the freedom that you like to boast about, to spew your lack of intelligence across the web. You have a problem with illegals?!?! Blame the fore, five, six fathers for promoting "The American Dream" and "Windows of New Opportunities" to the world luring them to live here. Get rid of the Statue of Liberty put your precious fences up and watch this country and its...."power" successfully complete a Kamikaze suicide.
dumb old arguement on gun control again. I guess some people would rather just blow smoke than solve the real issue. Before you gun control nazis, put into any law on gun control, think first what and who you will control. If you can control all the thugs, criminals and mentally unstable people, then sure control away. But I doubt you can, so go crawl back into your safe little caves and don't come out because there are guns everywhere.
And to the poster who said guns are an extension of our manhood, you are a moron or women. Either way, its not about extending my man hood, its about making sure I can protect those around me. Because I'm realistic enough to know that I can't protect myself and my family. What's the old saying, better be safe than sorry. So yeah if extending my manhood protects my family so be it. But you sir/madam can stick it where the sun don't shine, cause it's cosy and safe in there.
"That's why the rate of homicide in France is only a fifth of what it is in the US. Face it, gun control works!"
Iam sure Adolph Hitler was pleased with France Gun Kontrol
Four people are murdered and the first response out of many of you is to start your typical biased rants about firearms( One of you even posted six year old data). Nothing about the murders, nothing about the children, just the mindless rants about firearms. This incident is a tragedy try and remember that. Show compassion for the relatives of this, better yet try and be Human.
To those who claim they believe in the Constitution, here's the Second Amendment to the Constitution: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
For some reason, those who constantly harp in their Second Amendment "rights" would like to ignore the very first four words of the Second Amendment: "a well regulated militia." Yes, the word REGULATED is right there in the Second Amendment. Deal with it.
Sounds like someone "snapped".......what? Isn't that the common thinking about Bales? So why not this guy?
We ban murder, and people commit murder anyway. We ban drunk driving and people drive drunk anyway. We ban drugs, people do drugs anyway.
So I don't get the argument against gun control laws because people will get guns anyway?
With that argument, you could say let's legalize it all. People will do "it" anyway...
Adam44
“He identified himself as a Christian in the same way and for the same reason that Hitler identified himself as a Christian, i.e. in order to hopefully manipulate Christians into following him/them instead of Christianity.”
Ah but that argument cuts both ways does it not? That Muslim terrorists claim to be Muslims to get other Muslims to follow them, if not by actions then by reactions, as in making every non-Muslims feel so threatened by Muslims that they act against Muslims (something that has been called for multipul times on MSNBC) and thus for Muslims to band together for defence (like what happened in Yugoslavia)
“Exceptions don't provide patterns and can therefore be shown as anomalies. It's when a pattern of crimes has clear and consistent origin”
Now I don’t mean to cause offense by this but SGT Bales actions were only an anomaly to you (guys), I live in England and I’m sorry to say but his actions are seen as the modus operandi of the American military by most people here, as (right or wrong) their reputation is better known for friendly fire incidents and killing civilians then for professionalism, so again maybe we shouldn’t be too quick to judge on patterns until we know all of the facts?
I will agree with you that the odds are that it was a Muslim, but then I have to wonder how much the headline of this article is effecting the odds? After all since 9/11 just mentioning the word “terror” seems to conjure up (in the mind’s eye) a Muslim with a turban and a black beard called Achmed doesn’t it, and for all we know this could just be some crazy Frenchman who believes the government is out to get him and that Jews are trying to steal his thought energy.
Anyway how are you today, things going well I hope :)
I'm wondering what the fallout would be if Israel attacks Iran ........
Funny to watch the lunatic fringe gun nuts compare a terrorist attack to criminal activity. They're too stupid to realize that if guns stopped crime, America would have no crime at all, having more guns than any society on earth. The next most heavily armed country is Yemen. How's that working to protect freedom? The gun nuts lose on the evidence so they appeal to emotion. That's the way the right wing works. They lost the LOGICAL argument, so now whine that ANY gun crime shows gun control doesn't work. We have 11,000 murders in the US. Guns don't STOP crime, they CAUSE it
All you pansy-assed gun contol libs are forgetting one important fact:
It is written into our Constitution our right to bear arms. In fact, the founding fathers thought it was so important, they wrote it in as the Second Amendment, directly under the First Amendment - freedom of speech.
France has literally been taken over by middle Eastern Muslim immigrants that were allowed residency en masse, and once there, breeding like rabbits to get their population up. France is now reaping what it has sown. The article doesn't mention it, but I would bet a paycheck it was a young, male radical Muslim.
@Fed
No, you did something worse, you implied I was an anti-semite or that people don't care sufficiently about this because these victims were Jewish. Neither was even close to the case.
I'm pretty sure the soldiers were they believe were killed by the same person were Muslim, I don't see you showing any outrage there. This is not PC liberal media bs - the media in the US is reporting this, is it not? The French media are over this like crazy.
Are you saying that there are cases Muslim American soldiers have gone to Christian or Jewish strongholds and massacred people there but the pc liberal media didn't cover it and the POTUS refused to apologize for these acts? If so, please provide the documentation.
Are you saying Obama should give the guy who massacred the people (including children) an "attaboy" and a trip to Disneyland for killing innocent victims in an act that also puts the very lives of Americans still over there in jeopardy?
The POTUS has a responsibility to apologize when our military does something that causes unacceptable "collateral" damage even during war and he needs to do so when an active duty AMERICAN soldier massacres innocent people even if you don't like the religion or ethnicity of those people. He would have issued an apology regardless of race, gender, ethnicity & religion of the soldier who did the killing because that soldier was an active duty American soldier - and he would and should issue an apology regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, nationality & religion of the victims. I think you're the one who needs to think about it.
Joe Veteran: Exactly what I was thinking. Four murders of Jews in France, commited after the recent murders of French soldiers in the region and not one peep about how dreadful and sad, but rather, an anti-gun tirade. Guess Holder's anti-gun brainwashing program which he started in the 90's have worked really well.
The attacks in France are strongly linked to Islamic terrorists and if you think they care about gun bans, well, all I can say is what fantasy world are you living in? Guess those anti-gun folks using this as yet another soapbox or else they don't want to admit that there are radical Muslim terrorists who like to kill people. Noticed as well that the outcry against murdering children on the posts was rather mute, unlike the outcry against the American soldier killing children. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander except when it comes to pushing liberal agendas in which case only those issues liberals hold dear, like gun control and America bad will be broadcast.
Deepest condolenses for those who have lost lives and loved ones. Compassion and caring should come above political agendas.
Holder's anti-gun brainwashing video:
http://www.youtu.be/Gi4_OKwAH
USA 1967 said:
Gun control doesn't work and guns are not the problem. The US has all these "immigrants" or illegals from mexico, asia, the mid east, etc to deal with.
Not all immigrants are illegals. And not all 'illegals' actually ARE 'illegal'. ICE has plenty of people in detention who aren't illegal. And ICE has deported legal US citizens.
No other country has the illegal problem we have so let's compare apples to apples. These people are a serious problem in our country.
I'll politely have to differ with you here.
Mexico is struggling with illegal immigration of South American citizens fleeing cartel violence in places like Colombia.
Hong Kong is struggling with 'birth tourism' issues just like here in the US, with Chinese women, desperate to stop their girl babies from being killed or aborted traveling off mainland China to give birth and thereby giving their children some measure of protection from the Chinese communist male-superior thinking and gender-selective abortions due to the one-child policy.
People in Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and other countries surrounding Syria are dealing with a huge influx of illegal immigrants fleeing Assad's regime and seeking refuge in the neighboring countries.
People in the Congo are fighting militia factions who were responsible for the mass genocide in Uganda and Rwanda. These rogue factions are illegally crossing African countries' borders, burning villages, killing, raping, pillaging people and property, kidnapping and selling the children as illegal slaves/sex slaves, many to right here in the US.
So no, the US is NOT the only country in the world with an 'illegal' problem. And our problem is nowhere near as serious as it is in, say, the Congo, where the 'illegals' are heavily-armed rogue soldiers who burn entire villages, rape, kill, pillage and plunder, kidnap children and sell them as sex slaves all over the world, and where the country has little to no law enforcement capable of even trying to secure the border between them and other countries. The military, in fact are accused of crimes on their own people just as hideous as the crimes they are supposed to try and prevent the 'illegals' from committing.
This article is about an unprovoked attack on a teacher and children that left children dead. It doesn't matter what color they are, where they are, what faith they espouse, what they call their Supreme deity. They are children, and any incident that leaves children dead is a tragedy. My heartfelt sympathies go out to the people of France for this murder of their children.
I saw nothing that definitively concludes the shooter is an 'illegal', and this in fact has absolutely nothing do do with the issue of illegal immigrants in the US. So don't bring in unrelated issues, and just observe a moment of silence for young lives ended too early, for the loss their parents and relatives will feel at the loss, and mourn the sudden end to the potential these children could have brought to their communities and their world.
Jane Cruise and JoeVeteran, You and several others pointed out. Is the very first comment had to do with "gun control" I can't believe my eyes and what I am reading. Three children and a teacher are dead and all you A$$Holes can do is start off on your freaking arguments about gun control. From the left and the right. Your all a bunch of idiots. Lives where lost and this is your first response. Well I am Jewish by birthright. I also know this. Israel will find this killer and he will be dealt with. My condolences go out the the families and the Jewish Community in France. Your in our prayers. G-D Bless you and may his Shalom surround you in your time of need.
Good points as usual mygirl1, and nice to see you again.
Los, you are always a worthy opponent and our exchange is substantive. However, thread #1 has already been collapsed and our conversation is different and outnumbered by the gun control posts. Why don't we continue way down the line at a post I will make and then come back here quickly to note. I hope you are having a good day too. See you soon with a new post #
I find it very humorous that the Obama left wing liberals are hitting on gun control. France has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and look what happens. Another socialist idea fails. Only the Obamaites can bend the facts in a case like this. And let’s not forget MSN not calling a spade a spade. French news is reporting an Arabic looking suspect but MSN will not? If course MSN dislikes the Israeli's and loves the Palestinian issue so they give the Muslim terrorist rat bastards a pass. Just like they do with Obama.
Great answer! They're like roaches...only bigger!
Losmuertos said
"So I see people are already using this to bring up the same old arguments about gun control, I suggest a compromise, how about you can have all the guns you like just as long as they are single shot muskets or shot-guns. I mean seriously who the hell needs an AK for hunting?"
The Second Amendment doesn't say anything about hunting but it does mention a well regulated militia. Well regulated meaning well armed.
Okay Los, I've posted a reply to you in Post # 242
Maybe we can continue there.
I agree Fedup. Where is the outrage??? Very brave of this murderer to come up on his little scooter to gun down children and a Rabbi. A real military genius. Just as brave when the unsuspecting soldiers were gunned down. Same MO. Hard to imagine starting a day filled with the anticipation of school and having to face this nightmare. Those affected are getting an education in something no one should have to deal with.
This is nothing more than a very cowardly terrorist. The motives are now clear and the French government must now do what they can to make their intentions clear.
May they find this sick bastard soon.
Good morning, Adam or maybe it would be a good morning if were not commenting on such a horrific tragedy.
@Kayner - Are you too blind to see the hypocrisy of your post? You call these people animals and in the same breath call for the ethnic cleansing of over 1billion Muslims and the destruction of the countries they reside in. Thinking like that would put you on par, not with terrorst, but with people like Hitler. The irrational fear of Muslims and the knee-jerk reactions by a great deal of Americans are the reasons why are rights are slowly being erroded away for "security" reasons. Many of you have bought into the lie that they hate our freedom and culture, which couldn't be further from the truth. Instead you need to understand that no matter how horrible terrorism is, it is a reaction to the policies of our country. Our elected officials have been directly and indirectly responsible for the death and oppression of more Muslims than all terrorist attacks together could ever amount too. Look at our role in Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine/Israel, and just about every other Arab or Muslim nation.
The perpetrator escaped away on a scooter. They should ban scooters.
Rick in SD (1.79)
Almost but not quite. You forgot the commas which separate the clauses. So your argument is false, for the want of a comma ( the lowly comma) . The right resides with the people as an individual right not some collective right .
Losmuertos (1.41)
Read up on the N.F.A. of 1934. Currently class III firearms are highly restricted. You must register the arm, get permission from local police agencies to own and be able to produce the weapon on demand. How's that for restrictions? Far beyond cyclic rate and magazine capacity. The N.F.A. of 1934 covers a hole host of other items as well also the conversion of a semi-auto to full auto is ILLEGAL and subject to federal penalties.
good to know that gun control works so well in Europe. we should have it here too.
Four people died in gun related violence today in America in the last hour.
So it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that they don't want to be like us.
Lots of cleanup.
Dramapsych, Bob-434277, Mark-1219747, SAICS, stonepipe, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Do better.
John T.-1446887 self-removed but this would have been a day, too.
Jaison Jensen banned, terrible history.
bruce dekalb,il
I kind of knew that fully auto weapons are illegal in the US but you’ll have to bear with me as (being a Brit) America’s gun culture is very weird to me (it appears that a great deal of you are a bit crazy for firearms) anyway the point of my suggestion was to offer a compromise, as it’s pretty clear that people are not willing to give up their guns (and I don’t fully support that) but modern guns are far more deadly than anything the founding fathers could have imagined, so I wonder if instead of restricting all guns, maybe you would be better suited to restricting people capacity for killing large numbers with guns, but restricting the rates of fire and magazine sizes, after all I doubt most drive byes or school shootings would be that effective if the gunman could only fire 2 rounds a minuet would they? :)
Or better idea, to quote Chris Rock maybe you should have bullet control? lol
Ps when I said I don’t fully support that I meant fully support giving up their guns, just to clarify :)
Losmuertos said...modern guns are far more deadly than anything the founding fathers could have imagined...
Seriously? You think these men who built the foundation for what would become the greatest nation on the planet didn't know that technology of all kinds would continue to advance? C'mon dude.
Their intent was that we be armed comparable to any forces we may encounter, foreign or domestic. Of course we can't have tanks or jets, but i'm ok with that. Unfortunately, sometimes nuts get a hold of guns. I don't have a solution to this problem but it certainly wouldn't be to choke down on the good and law abiding folks rights.
Note; they call the motorcycle and his caliber gun heavy...did they check out the weight watcher's club...for writers...
Geez......rather than expressing condolences to the families of those kids killed, all I see are posts bickering back and forth about gun control.
Gawd, you guys are something.
Handguns should be banned and collected. You wanna defend your house my little paranoids? Buy a shotgun.
JimD,
Not gonna happen. How about you move somewhere that already has a handgun ban? My guess is you wouldn't defend your home anyway, you libs have never really been known for your outstanding nerve and bravery.
Hate to say I told ya so.
Most likely the same shooter as that of the French soldiers. Soldiers I can understand, kids are another matter. This guy now needs to be caught.
Only in France a criminal would escape away on a scooter. Lolololol.
LOL Scooters are pretty popular over there, and there are a lot of places you can go that you wouldn't be able to get to in a car.
dear clearlynot
In France, especially in center towns, streets are very narrow and frequently jammes with cars (most of French center cities were build in Middle Age and are absolutely not adapted to car traffic) - so if you want to run away efficiently, a motorcycle or a scooter is absolutely the best way to do it - and if you want to avoid attracting attention, a scooter is better, because unlike big motorcycles, little scooters attract less attention...
pretty soon will be a "no scooter list"
you are another embarrassing DUMB american!! there certainly IS no shortage of you fools. you probably don't even have a passport and i KNOW you don't speak a second language!!!
Dramapsych is acting out eh? A little "dramatic" aren't you?
Have passport.
Am American.
Speak 4 languages.
Have ample supply of Jew, French, and American Hater jokes in tow.
Mark, you are obviously not truthful. I doubt that you have a passport, otherwise you wouldn't be as ignorant as you appear to be and 4 languages? I doubt that you have mastered English. Jaison is another piece of work. Clearly not one of our finest.
Okay John, when your stats get blown away, revert to the only method of discussion you think works, attack, attack, attack. You know nothing about the person you're speaking against, you simply accuse him of lying, wow what a great debater, I'd even go so far as to say 'master debater' ...... do us all a favor, grow up or go away.
Clearlynot, I thought it was funny. These other guys on here don't seem to have a sense of humor. Or for that matter, they don't understand that we Americans make jokes about everything because sulking doesn't do any good, so we laugh it off and move on with our life.
I learned to attack from the rest of you. I never claimed to be a master debater. Gabber, funny you should say that because you are obviously in alignment with Mark and Jaison. Have you read what they posted? It is clear that you cannot have a clear and honest debate here because of most of our biases and subjective minds. Gabber, you are obviously not objective. I know I am not when it comes to individuals who make light of innocent children getting brutally killed.
John, my attempt at sarcasm and humor was obviously lost on you, what a shame, take the de off of debater and then squeeze the two words together and you'll get my point - I hope.
Also your definition of objectivity obviously means not having a point of view - ridiculous assertion. Objectivity means considering all sides and then destroying the ones which make no sense as yours tend not to.
To address your final (I hope) point John, where was light made of Children getting killed? You are a typical dyed in the wool lib whose only way (you think) of winning a discussion is to try and paint your opponent in a negative light. Stick to your 'facts and figures' and the truth will always blow them away, I promise you. When you try to make it personal, as you did by your final comment, I and those like me will continue to make you look foolish, as you most certainly do at this point.
Dramapsych has the typical toilet fed brain from that toilet paper book ... the quran....written by a self proclaimed false prophet and pervert mohammud. THAT'S why the world is in the mess it is.
Really
Interesting you should say that. On my MSNBC home page, a sideshow illustrated the headline for this story, and one of the photos was of a big, strong, policeman removing a girl from the scene. He had a gun in one hand and his other arm was wrapped around the girl, holding her tight against him, with his hand covering her eyes so she wouldn't see the horror.
My immediate reaction to seeing this picture was: "OMG--a REAL man--I haven't seen one of those in ages!"
Bens Gpa . Religion and asshles like you
Murder is murder. Suffering is suffering. I am so sorry for the loss of life. Requicent in Pacem. This is horrible. Who cares if they be Jews or Croats or Christians or Muslim...Children are children. When will we stop focusing on all this nonsense. Human beings are destroying themselves. It is time for all people of good conscience and good will to band together against the forces of this evil. This is not about politics or religion. Shame. I will continue to live as an honorable, kind person and treat people in the same way. Maybe someone else will see this and follow suit. Maybe. I can only hope. So far my life has been a good one. I have abundance, give in abundance and am loved by my friends. I chose to be a vehicle of compassion and reconcilliation. Whatever the rest of you want to do is your business. That is just my opinion.
Bensgpa. wtf are you raving about. You obviously have no clue. you and demopyscho should get a room, you might be able to produce an offspring that resembles hitler. uummm second thought, better not the world would be better off with out you two. Find a big strong tree and you two can have a hanging party of just you two.
Funny to watch the lunatic fringe gun nuts compare a terrorist attack to criminal activity. They're too stupid to realize that if guns stopped crime, America would have no crime at all, having more guns than any society on earth. The next most heavily armed country is Yemen. How's that working to protect freedom? The gun nuts lose on the evidence so they appeal to emotion. That's the way the right wing works. They lost the LOGICAL argument, so now whine that ANY gun crime shows gun control doesn't work. We have 11,000 murders in the US. Guns don't STOP crime, they CAUSE it.
And comparing us to MEXICO is hysterical! Mexico is a 3rd world failed state. But, perhaps that's what the gun nut crowd wants for the US.
My sympathies to the Jewish faith who had to witness the assassination of three innocent, defenceless children and their peaceful religious father.
For centuries, the Jewish people have been singled out because of their faith. Many immigrated to a country more tolerant than the others, America. On a tragic day like this, it is important we stand united with our Jewish brothers and sisters.
@Motz - and let's just hope that this country remains a more tolerant country because if we look at the current political discourse here we'll see more events like this instead of less :(
Why did this get so off topic? Three children and an adult are dead for no reason. I am not Jewish but my heart breaks for the friends and families of the people involved. What a tragedy. I hope they find the shooter and make sure he is never capable of anything like this again.
Really --
Oops. I thought you were one of "those people," but I see now you are rational and have a serious point to make. Sorry for misjudging you.
By "immigrants," do you mean Arab/Muslims? I'm going to reply assuming that you do. If I'm wrong again, I apologize again.
I see the problem as painting with too wide a brush. I know for a fact, from personal experience, that there are many Arabs from Muslim countries who aren't religious at all and wish they could just go somewhere with a decent standard of living and live a normal life.
Then there are the various groups that want to take over the world, either literally or figuratively. That would include the Abrahamic religions, the various economic factions, and the nationalists.
I see the members of these groups as causing the real problems, from terrorism, to destroying the ecosystem, to extorting money and blood from the common people to commit warmongering.
In the meantime, black-and-white smoke-and-mirrors keep us all distracted and squabbling so we can't identify the real culprits, let alone figure out what to do about them.
They're coming! They're coming here! And they're coming for us!
Laugh while you may, my sleeping countrymen and countrywomen
They should label him the scooter shooter.
France should re-institute the Guillotine! And this murderer should be beheaded, in public view on it.
Swan37
nah... people would might mistake him for shooting scooter libby. That would confuse people into thinking he was shooting liberals.
As a person of Jewish descent who lost ancestors in the camps I would suggest all take a moment of silence and offer a prayer or whatever for the children and a rabbi doing peaceful work. But please do not be too quick to jump to judgement and blame it on the Muslim immigrants, there are many I know that I am proud to call my friends. I think we are better to wait and then even if it is a person of Muslim Faith he/she is no more acting on their faith then the Christians were during the Crusades, it's nothing but hatred and political and has nothing to do with religion other then using it's name to legitimize the act.
Tbenton
you got my vote but it is of interest you were happy to point out Muslims and Christians acting based on faith but not include those of Jewish faith as Israel does today. Just an observation.
Until the perp is caught we have no idea who he is. We don't even know if he is tall, short, fat, thin, etc.. All we know is he rides a scooter.
Only a complete douche bag would make light of children being killed regardless of what country it is happening in. No normal person makes light of these kind of things regardless of what this nut case says. There are losers like Christine Moore everywhere in the world and Christine you do not have the right to speak for anyone but your self. Out of all the people I have met over the years I have never run into one person in America who thought the murder of children or anyone was funny. You need to seriously reevaluate your morals. It's no wonder people think Americans suck. People like you who talk @!$%# like this is enough to make me want to throw your ass out and let you be claimed by the Manson family.
trust_verify,
I replied this way because like it or not the state of Israel is not a religious state that is ruled by Rabbi's like Iran is ruled by their religious leaders. So to look at the acts of a state as a act of a faith is as inconstant at the Muslims claiming any attack by us is a attack by Christians.
In the comments after the story about the last attack people were suggesting that it was French separatists who had attacked the soldiers, but now that it appears someone with the same MO has attacked a Jewish private school I can't help but wonder if they might be Muslim.
How dare you say aloud what everyone with a normally working train of thoughts would be led to conclude as a completely valid hypothesis on the religious affiliation of this pro-peace, anti-private school, gun-loving kind of guy who's riding through the "pays des Droits de l'Homme" on his scooter?
And because of that, because he perpetrates his abominations in a much too "civilized" country, he won't be shot on sight when he is caught, he won't even be kept to be flayed later on the public square. No, he will have a trial: he will go to prison or even to an asylum if he manages to persuade his prosecutor that he's crazy.
Even though the Human Rights shouldn't apply to him because, whatever the "bien-pensants" may say, he is not human and shouldn't be considered as such.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting the Muslim community in general. I'm just saying that his actions indicates he's got a reasonably good chance to be a Muslim extremist but that it will be considered as a slightly plausible eventuality by the French media.
And finally an individual who does that, whatever his spiritual belonging, shouldn't be considered as a Human and is goddam lucky to be doing it in France because in a lot of countries, they wouldn't spare a bullet to put down a beast like that.
Considering that, 6 million Jews were killed by Christians during the 40's, I cannot help wondering if it is a Christian doing these killings. But then again, like you, I really have no proof. Shame on me for making baseless accusations.
Christians aren't killing people this century- Moslems are killings Christians by the millions. You have to be willfully ignorant to deny it.
dear SRK
the 6 millions of Jews in the 40s were killed by a neopagan regime, based on an ideology deeply hostile to Christianism; the SS were actually trying to revive the old paganism of prechristian Germans...
ARTGRL
Being in the military I can easily say we 'Christians' are killing Muslims by the millions. I would like a reference to the opposite.
I think the real Christians in the 40's were the ones sheltering the Jews at the risk of their lives, not the brainwashed scum fueling the ovens.
Then again, everything is question of context, if you go around pretending that everything is possible, ignoring probabilities, it is fine; you will just never catch the killer.
Mark, that explains everything. I wonder what they are feeding you in the military? You must be infantry because that is where all the boneheads congregate. Killing Muslims by the millions? You are delusional. When you say you are in the Military, do you mean that you play Battlefield 3 eight hour a day?
Islam was created by the Vatican around the 9th Century to create an enemy. They are still used the same way by our masters. Probably the same masters. Muslims are just puppets of the Illuminati.
The issue is, that 4 people are dead. Three of them children. Yes, access to guns made it easier, but a madman will find a way to kill someone no matter what weapon he chooses. This is not about gun control, this is not about Israel, or any of the other things brought in to muddy the waters. This is about 4 people, including 3 small children, who got up this morning to do something in a place they should feel safe, and were killed doing it, probably because their religion made them a target.
Thank You!
The 3 soldiers that were killed and the other one who was critically wounded were all Muslims !!!
It should be interesting to find out. My prayers are with the families. I hope they catch this person before he does anymore killing.
Mark-1219747: Riiiiiiiiiiiiight: Lie often?
Prove your point: what is your company, platoon, battalion, regiment and division numbers? Quick....Google something! Liar!
phil5865:
I doubt that very much. What is your source?
Hey Adam. Was the shooter a sunni?
How should I know?
Am still awaiting Phil's source for his contention that the French solders killed, were Muslims.
"soldiers"
... still waiting...
something tells me i'll be waiting a long, long time for proof of this one.....
Here goes your source:
I was wrong too, I assumed the gunman to be a religious extremist targeting the West but given that he only attacks minorities, this sick f**k is probably just a little Hitler.
My proposal of flaying him on the public square still holds though....
Wow, the ignorance and misinformation are rife. So it was the Catholic church that created Muslims? Then, with no prior information, the murdered French soldiers were all Muslim? Really? If someone is paying others to spew misinformation and lies, well, he's getting his money's worth...
So sad and pray that the affected families and friends find peace.
@Adam44, Sorry, I'm having trouble printing it out:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17428860
Adam44
Yo Adam just read your last post to me (as I didn’t realise the thread had been collapsed) anyway I’m up for continuing our discussion if ya want.
Liege - way to burst peoples bubbles man.
It's just SHOCKING that someone would have killed a few muslims and jews...
it cant possibly be a christian, could it? HORRORS!!!
/start sarcasm/
here's hoping this madman targets good christians, that way we can rest assured this madness is being carried out by a muslim.
couldnt possibly be anything but a muslim...right?
/end sarcasm/
Soon French citizens will see what it feels like to live in Israel, living in fear and always having to be on the defence. Only a monster would assassinate children and a Rabbi.
Apparently, one woman saw the gunman's face and reported that he had a tatoo in his face. That is very relevant. What kind of a tatoo was it ? Was it a tear drop, which you get in jail if you killed someone ? Other than that, I cannot think of anything but North African tribes who have tatoos in their face.
Wahtever it may be that will identify the gunman - I hope it will be soon. This kind of atrocity must not happen again. Killing a two-foot high little angel !
depends on the Rabbi doesn't it?
The monsters killed more than a thousand people in Lebanon and another 1400 in gaza, using F16s, tanks, missiles and cluster bombs. Most of those killed were women and children.
Hey, there was an article in my paper today, saying Israel admits Iran is not making nuclear weapons. It appears that I have been right and all the Zionists on these forums have been wrong. Israel still wants an attack on Iran, because they are bloodthirsty savages, with no regard for Human life, unless it is a Jew.
Okay, this was not in the original run of this story, nor in the previous story of a paratrooper being killled.
North African does not mean obviously minority in France. North Africans can be very light-skinned. If the troopers were shot from behind then the perpetrator might not have noticed what ethnicity they were, seeing only the despised uniform.
Also, even if North African does not automatically mean "Muslim." You can have Non-muslim N. Africans and (of course) Non-muslim Caribbean.
However, if the attacker targeted the soldiers because they "looked" darker-skinned or ethnic, then yes that does suggest base racism instead of religious motivation.
We will have to stay tuned. I hope they catch the cowardly b@stard soon, whatever his twisted motivation.
Don't be alarmed....It's just crazy people
If you think someone should be burned too death because...they are a witch
Stupid IS...AS stupid does
If only monsters kill children then Israel should be considered a "Godzilla Country" killing Palestinian children in the towns and villages where those children were born and raised while keeping them under a ruthless military occupation and siege.
@Adam - two of them (I believe the two from N. Africa) were Muslim
Liege, thanks for the link to the BBC story. They really aren't afraid to speculate.
The picture of the one trooper doesn't make him appear to be Non-french in any way. Shave off that beard and he could easily pass for French. Not sure about the others targeted.
There's also contrary information in the story. One witness says the perp looked "fat," and another says he looked "small." as follows:
And then:
Hard to get an accurate read on the killer.
It does seem as though there is expertise with the firearms though. Could be an important clue as the BBC article suggests.
Stonehead: why do you think it may be a Muslim behind this? Oklahoma Bombing was also suspected to be a Muslim behind it..end up to be a white American. I just hope they find this killer and stop him from targeting innocent people.. but what so sad the fact that you mentioned Muslims... we have similar crimes committed else where..in Israel, jewish people killed many Musilm women and children and they were never charged for those crimes against humanity.
What also sad is we all know they did it but it s not a big deal...but it s big deal when Jewish people are the vicitms here..it s a shame we have this corrupted international laws that play favoritism
I notice none of the comments here have drawn analogy or mentioned the recent killings, mostly children, by an American soldier in Afghanistan, obviously not a muslim but nevertheless 'cold-blooded'. These horrific events aren't isolated to the barbaric, mostly I think it's a melt-down of the shooter's psyche, perhaps we'll never know the motive behind what has to be a complete loss of conscious awareness as to why, what and to whom they're doing the unspeakable.
Ralph H and Olis your radical muslim brothers in Iran and worldwide do not care about Palestinian children when will you ever face this horrid truth? Palestinians pop out babies on command for Islam and then Hamas teaches the children to hate Israel - so sad and the cycle never breaks. Then when they become teenagers they give them weapons and stones and send them to kill Israelis. It's so convenient of you both to never point out the hate that instigates the majority of battles between the small population of Israel and the large population of islamic troublemakers that live throughout the world.
You couldn't even have the decency to keep your evil thoughts to yourself for one day.
Latekate: when you live under bad conditions every day....
when you are under the agression and brutality...
when unpunished crimes are committed by the Israelis against the Palestinian people...
when Granpa get s to be kick out of his own house / having your places destroyed and land taken
when your Land you live in becomes likes a Nazi camp
what choices do they have regardless if they were Muslims or not? living under all those bad conditions I mentioned above.. what would you do?
Two of the three soldiers killed were identified as Muslim in various news articles such as the London Telegraph. But, please don't let facts get in the way of a theory, particularly if your theory bolsters your bigotry!
Adam 44, I gotta disagree
"It does seem as though there is expertise with the firearms though. Could be an important clue as the BBC article suggests."
I had the opposite thought about his shooting skills... 16 (or more) shots w/ at least 8 or 10 of them from a 45 and only 4 killed? I'm guessing he didnt put too much time in at the range.
As usual I find the comments more interesting to read than the original story. Only 4 killed? I wouldnt mind seeing 4000 killed in every city in every country around the world to help w/ the overpopulation. I was surprised to learn that there are more people alive today on the planet, than have lived and died in the known history of the human species. If 1 billion people died tomorrow...I'd say it was a good start.... but I'm kooky that way.
Anyone who goes around murdering children is a twisted coward.
I found it interesting when one person wrote that he was a "christian" and a soldier which is an oxymoron to say the least. A person who is truly following the teachings of Jesus, does NOT carry a gun and nor would he kill other people.
If he didn't have a scooter he would not have been able to do this. We need scooter control also!
finding humor in the midst of tragedy can be a two edged sword, but I was able to chuckle at your post.
Chuck -please don't use logic to prove a point. Most Americans under 40 were not taught "logic" in school as part of the "progressive party movement" so they can't follow a thought to its logical conclusion.
If the man didn't have hands or feet, he couldn't have operated a gun or a scooter...or better yet, a blind man can't drive, aim, pick out targets...
Its good to see the NRA nut jobs are showing a little decensy and sympathy for the victims and not exploiting another tradegy to fit their agenda.Oh wait they are.You NRA scumbags are every bit as cold and fanatic as the a-h0les who killed those children.
BTW - France just like much of Europe has strict gun control laws.
Im a member of the NRA and I really dont like being called a A-hole and scumbag. There was nothing to warrant your remarks period! You do not know me nor do you know how I live but we all just learned a little about you in your post. Have a nice Day!
Ndogg57
I'm not a member of the NRA but me thinks you ANTI Rights nuts are the ones who need to get off the ban gun wagon here because EUROPE has STRICT gun control policies. How is that working for you? BTW the NRA is an American organization so how you think they are in any way shape or form involved in Europe shows your lack of FACTS as well as geography.
Decency would be showing sorrow for the loss of life, NOT making this tragedy into some sort of political agenda.
Have a really crappy day and avoid those lead mosquitoes in Mexico where gun control is working just fine, for the victims. The swarm seems to be spreading to Europe now. Anopheles quadrimaculatus de plumbum.
@Skeeter, quite a vilid point when you mentioned "logic" not being taught, though I think the phrase "critical thinking" is more accurate. HOWEVER, epic fail when you try to pin this on "progressive party movement"--whatever that means. In red states and blue states alike, Republicans have targeted school boards for two generations so they can direct what's taught. That is not to forgive the Dems, cuz they sure have done their share of stupid stuff, but the R's have been waging a war on public education for decades.
hey everyone, use SPELL CHECK or learn to spell, otherwise you sound STUPID!
And I don't spell check "vilid"--sometimes irony can be quite ironic.
The French have been already attacked by islamist terrorists in 1986 and 1995 - in both cases they stopped those sampaign of terror rather fast and very efficiently. I trust their police and intelligence agencies to deal fast also with this threat.
All my sympathies to the families of victims. All the best to French police officers and secret agents - and good hunt!
Et Vive la France!
Something a lot of people don't know is that France is assimilating a whole lot of muslims into their society. It is speculated that before too long muslims will be prominent in the government of France.
They don't appear to be handling this one quickly - they are following the American blueprint of public safety officers responding after the disaster to clean up and do paperwork (reactive, not proactive.) Soldiers killed on Thursday - same person (according to the assumptions in article) attacks Jewish school on Monday. Very likely this is a Muslim radical who should have been under continuous intense surveillance, which could have resulted in capture before the sun rose on Friday.
dear mailman
Until Thursday nobody knew there was a spree killer/terrorist on the loose - if it is an Islamist "lone wolf" he may very well have escaped any attention until now, considering that there is around 6 million Muslims living in France - even if only a tiny fraction are radical activists, it is not humanly possible to survey them all;
and also it is not yet certain if it is the work of radical Muslims; amongst the three killed soldiers at least two were themselves issued from French muslim Arab community - add to it the attack against a Jewish school and it becomes possible that the attacker can be rather from a far right organisation - or simply he can be a non-politically oriented lunatic (even if I personally believe this is the work of one or more Muslim radicals).
Without a miracle, I do not think ANY police of the world can anticipate where this kind of guy can hit next. In France a great number of religious places of all confessions is from today protected by the police - but there is no way to protect every Church, Synagogue and Mosque
a correction - it is now known, that ALL the three killed soldiers were French Arabs - only the one critically injured but for the moment still alive is from another origin
So glad I don't live in that rat hole anymore! The police are worthless and would rather sit on their ass then try to find these people responsible for these actions.
Eight years in Paris and the police never did a damn thing about anything, they drive around in sardine cans packed 4 deep because they can't ride alone due to the fear they have from the general public, mostly the Muslims. They can't use their guns unless shot at first and by then it's too late anyway.
The laws protect the criminal not the honest hard working public. It's out of control there and I expect to hear more and more of this type of thing going on this year if not civil war. It's thick with hate and anger there and the people are worn thin with the non action of the police and government to see that the people are safe.
This is tragic as it is always when there is killing of innocent people. I hope France gets their act together before it's too late.
SRK, do you know what a true Christian is? One who truly follows what Christ taught? He even said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". Matthew 7:21. There are many who say they are Christians, but you will know they are Christians by their love. John 13:35
According to the news, the French police now believe it was a Christian fanatic going after both Muslims and Jews.
wants to know: the French Police didn't announce anything like that! I follow the story on French newspapers web pages and there is nothing yet on the motivations of the killer!
Too many kids dying lately....
Ban handguns everywhere.
and the scooters, takenaka, do not forget the scooters...
Yes, too many kids dying. But worldwide, the number dying from violence is tiny compared to those dying from neglect, starvation, and disease. The biggest opportunity to prevent deaths of children - pursue the causes of disease and starvation.
Why don't we just ban children? Then in a few generations all our troubles will be over. . .
Aren't handguns already banned in France?
I don't think the shooter used a handgun.
The Countries of Europe Though it varies from country to country overall have very tight gun control laws in place.
The product of Islam, how can you trust this cult?
Ban Islam and these murders will all go back to hell in Arabia.
Ad'M if only.
First three soldiers shot in the back and killed by a heavily armed gunman on a motor-bike, now innocent children and a Rabb shot in the same fashion. Who else would kill in this cowardly fashion? Target military and Jewish people? Looks like a muslim, walks like a muslim, kills innocents like a muslim...most likely it is a muslim....
I have to put some of the blame for this on the French gov't and their anti-hajib and veil legislation. I've been SAYING they are targeting the WRONG Muslims! It wasn't veiled women that rioted and burned cars in Paris, and I'm pretty sure the gunMAN wasn't a woman, either...in fact, I'm surprised it took THIS long for some Muslim to over-react like this. I feel sorry for the soldiers, Rabbi and little children. Only a Muslim would shoot kids.
@T Bourlon
Buford O Furrow was not Muslim and he shot a bunch of kids (and adults) at the LA Jewish Community Center in 1999
Brendan O'Rourke was not Muslim and he shot two little girls at a CArlsbad elementary school in 2010
Charles Carl Roberts IV was not Muslim and he took Amish schoolchildren hostage, shooting 10 little girls (5 of which died) in 2006
Care to rethink your hypothesis?
How do you account for the fact that the 3 soldiers who were killed were Muslim in your racist and illogical assumptions?
That's the third time I've read that, but I've seen no verification of that assertion. Unless you can produce it, I don't believe it.
TB,
Why bother with barbarians, just ignore them, tick the last box.
The goal of the Islamic cult, from their beginning to their end, is to provoke Sharia law in all countries. All under the guise of religion. Well, based on their own words and deeds Islam is not a religion it is a failed political system. Not a religion based on comparison with the other great religions of the world. Failed political system based on their abuse and barbaric treatment of their own people.
This guy keeps getting off scott-free... on a scooter? Inspector Clouseau must be on the case. I nominate "Pink Panther Killer" as official nickname for the shooter.
dear Daniel, in France, in old center towns, it is easier to WALK than drive in a car, because of many streets closed for circulation or completely jammed - bottom line, if you want to escape quickly from a shooting place, a scooter is the ideal thing...
also, in all the cases, the people targeted were in public places, not in any kind of police or military facilities - it is easy to escape if no police or security agents are present...
And also your comment is frankly displaced - please, remember that four people, including three children, were murdered...
God bless you
rest assured, the perpetraders were muslim.they want rest until all jews are exterminated.
Yeah, that's what I said when news of that thing in Norway first broke, but you still have very good chance of being right. Taking all bets... 20:1 in favor of it being a muzzy.
rest assure that the muslins will not be satisfied until all are killed who are not muslin. doesn't matter what country you live in, if you are not muslin they think you should be dead. even china and russia are not safe from these blood thirsty animals.
i live in alabama and jewish hate is alive and well. Mostly by "christians" who still that mentality that jews and evil incarnet
The media will never report that under pressure from government officials because "we don't want to create retaliation or panic ".
Sharrianne said:
rest assure that the muslins will not be satisfied until all are killed who are not muslin. doesn't matter what country you live in, if you are not muslin they think you should be dead. even china and russia are not safe from these blood thirsty animals.
If ALL Muslims believed as you obviously think they do they'd be dropping planes on Tibetan monasteries. They'd be gunning down covens of practicing pagans here in the US and elsewhere in the world. They'd be attacking medicine lodges of native American Shamans. They'd be blowing up Hindu temples, massacring the followers of Falun Gong and the Dalai Lama.
The fact that their 'kill everyone who is not Muslim' viewpoint seems to only be focused on capitalistic economies indicates to me that those who are perpetrating these deeds are misguided individuals, ad to decry ALL Muslims for the actions of a few would be to decry ALL Catholics for the horrors of the Inquisition. There is good and bad in every religion, every organized belief system just like there is good and bad in every person.
It's what you do that matters, not whose name you do it in.
A few years back I saw a guy driving erratically down the street and there was an old lady getting ready to step out in the middle of the crosswalk. I grabbed the lady and pulled her back onto the sidewalk just as the driver went past--so close that he knocked her walker over and it would no doubt have been worse if she had been still holding the walker and progressing across the intersection. Instead of giving me thanks, she told me I was going to hell--she saw the pentagram hanging on the bead chain next to my dog tags.
What I believed had no bearing on whether I was going to help her or not; I did it because it was the right thing to do, not 'because my Goddess told me to do it' and I didn't do it because I wanted a reward--'heaven' or 'hell'. I did it because it was, quite simply, the right thing to do--and if I had not made the effort, I would not be able to get up the next morning and look at myself in the mirror and like the person looking back, no matter what religion I professed, what faith I espoused.
No one really knows if there is a 'God' or even who 'God' really is. We as a species certainly can't agree on the definition or even the name of any Supreme Deity that man has created. So in the end, does a religion really matter? You do what you want to, what your conscience tells you, during you years on earth, and while human society can judge something as'good' or bad', what is 'good' now can become 'bad' later. Once your deployment on Earth ends and you go on to some other assignment (or cease to exist) good or bad ceases to hold any meaning for you (if you believe n an afterlife or a final judgement, it's too late to go back and undo anything you did and it's solely between you and your Maker (if there is one.)
Israel, in retaliating against rocket attacks on their civilians, strives to only attack the militants / terrorists, and has frequently called off attacks when there was fear of too much collateral damage, ie, civilian injury. It is for this reason that the terrorists in gaza who fire rockets at Israeli civilians hide among their own civilians.
In contrast, this attacker actually targeted and murdered young children. Imagine the kind of person who would pull the trigger at young children. Imagine the kind of person who would send someone to pull the trigger on young children. Imagine the people who celebrate such attacks, and encourage the attackers.
Understanding the lack of moral equivalence is essential to having perspective of what goes on in the middle east. To those who have encouraged Israel in years past to return the golan heights to Syria, view what syria is doing to it's own citizens, and decide if they could be trusted to respect the lives of Israeli citizens.
This sort of attack should clarify to the world that we are actually in a confrontation similar to world war 2, where there is a side that is immoral, and evil, that views all human beings as fair targets for domination or death, against a side that fights because it has too, to defend itself.
As the decisions are made on how to defend against this network of evil, one must not shirk from the realization that it will not go away on it's own. I quote Edmonde Burke, who said that
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
We unfortunately live in a time of evil, but fortunately live in a time when there is strength enough to confront it.
Colateral damage is part of war and killing the enemy. Israel should take them out at any cost to the civil population of the enemy.
Bengspa said:
Colateral damage is part of war and killing the enemy. Israel should take them out at any cost to the civil population of the enemy.
So killing children is all right as long as it's not the children of your country being killed? Just because the child is a citizen of another country, another religion, makes them worth, somehow, less than your child? It's exactly that sort of mentality that gives rise to tragedies like this; if this is what you believe, how does this make you any different from the person who killed these children?
The spear in the other's hand is the spear in your own.
Everyone keeps making lighthearted fun of the scooter get-away, but lets not forget 3 people, 2 of them children, were brutally murdered!
Guns are needed to protect us from Socialists like you liberals posting here. You are the reason for the 2nd amendment.
The reason being that we use them to fight the government. But, somehow we keep pointing it at each other don't we.
Larry I am a gay atheist liberal and yet some how i have over 30 guns so what does that make me?
larry--
You need guns to protect yourself from unarmed liberals? Wow. Paranoid much?
Neko
I would tell you but it's against the Newsvine COH.
What does being gay have to do with owning guns. I see no connection. Gay people can be afraid of criminals, they can also enjoy hunting and they can also want to be protected from a dictatorship. That has nothing to do with liking boy butt over girlie goods.
Sebastian, I think Neko just undermined your argument. Also, Larry never mention "unarmed" anything in his post.
Larry--what?
Why would you need a gun to protect you against a liberal? You may need a gun to protect you, your family and your possessions from a criminal, but to imply that you NEED one to protect you from a liberal would indicate that ALL liberals are criminals, which wouldn't be true. I might also even argue that you may not always need a gun to protect you from a criminal; I live in a gang-infested neighborhood and despite the fact that I have a gun (my Dad's Vietnam service piece) I have never ONCE ever had to use it. I have never even had to take it out of the ammo box in my bottom drawer. The one time I had someone break in I grabbed one of my swords off the wall and held the criminal at swordpoint until the police got there--it was sufficient to keep the incident from escalating and provided a welcome comedic break for the neighborhood cops that night. (5' Asian chick holding 6'3' black Blood gang-banger at swordpoint was apparently funny.)
tells me... to leave that sucker alone...LOL...
Amanda. You sound hot.
couldn't be a Muslim, because I remember reading that its a religion of Peace.....
Yeah, so is Christianity. And that track record isn't so great either. Face it, all religions have blood on their hands, mike. People killing over invisible, unprovable super-beings is the very definition of 'fighting over nothing' IMO...
Thing is muslim killings are about 1000 times more common.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands that died in Iraq thanks to our war there somedude.
You know...just the latest Christian Crusade in the Middle East.
Yeah kennyw , most of those killings were from other muslims .Just like in libya, you libs helped out in that one with o'hussein leading the charge , and now look how many people your libyan "freedom fighters " butchered .
I want to be there to listen to you dhimmi/apologist useful idiots for Islam when they're chopping one of your loved ones to pieces with psycho grins on their faces. Christianity has its horrible history, but it is HISTORY. We've got it. Stop your whiny, liberal equivocation. All religions have had their dark sides. We know that. Enough said. However, Islam is the slaughter machine of the 21st Century and if you deny that, you seriously need psychotherapy to get back in touch with reality. The behavior of Muslims is not the fault of America or Israel. And, for those of you who want to take issue with me over that, whose fault was Muslim blood lust before the US or Israel existed? You know like the first 1,200+- years? Yeah, fill me in on where that infinite regression goes and how far you have to stretch to ALWAYS blame Muslim atrocities on somebody else. Cretins.
Take a Xanax and breathe in, let out slowly, The Islmo Boogie man isn't coming for you or your kids.
Innocents paying the price for others....Could very well be some real nasty terrorists (AQ) trying to stir the pot in pre-election France.
Gotta clean this one up posthaste...
Good Lord 3 Children have died and all the Liberal Left Wing Socialists can think about is taking guns away from law abiding citizens who want to protect their families.
Kudos to our second amendment
Kudos to our founders for putting it in our constitution
sammy its too bad that most guns in familys kill those in their familys instead of a supposed attacker. Gun control doesent mean taking your guns just controlling them. After all where are the limits? Do you think a inexperienced child should handle a weapon? That would be controlling a weapon. Do you think every citizen should have a RPG? Thats gun control. Where are the limits, or do you think there should be no limits or in other words gun control?
Squaredude your first sentence is utter BS and you know it, the rest of your diatribe shows a disingenuous attempt at describing what the libs call gun control. The desire of liberals is to completely disarm society - period.
Also if you actually read the second amendment, the clear implication is to allow citizens to be armed in similar fashion to the military. Other early documents showed that the founding fathers feared that the government could overstep it's bounds (too late for that), and tha the people (us) have the right to bring themselves back to a free society by any means necessary.
Squaredude,
If qualified a person should be allowed to own whatever they want without government interference.
Our founders are doing snap rolls in their graves when they see what congress has done to us
Well said.
So the Jews in France have their own schools as well, wonder if the Jews assimilated in France that they would be targeted? The question is are they Frenchmen first or Jews first? Seems that they want to be Jews first and this makes them targets for the terrorists.
The Jews have their own schools, so do the Catholics, the Protestants and the Muslims.
But it doesn't go against being a Frenchman because France has no state religion, therefore, you can have a religious school as long as the State has no ties to it. And those schools are generally far better than the public ones.
I should probably have considered myself as a perfectly legitimate target while I was in Catholic School as your insinuation would lead one to think.
And what of Catholic schools? Same brilliant reasoning?
@square dude ummm Jews have religious schools here in the US (just like Catholics, Episcopalians and Christian fundamentalists) and you want to know what else, some people of those religions go to public school and yet, we'll still go to a synagogue/church/mosque as part of the practice of our religion. As a matter of fact, I'm a Jew that went to public school and I refuse to assimilate (which must mean convert to become a good Christian in your mind if having the audacity to have a religious school is considered refusal to assimilate).
Are you sure you are not fronting for Barrack Hussein Obama out current Idiot-in-Chief
So do all private schools that a full of WASPs here in the States produce graduates that are less loyal to the United States then public schools? Do Catholic schools make their graduates more loyal to the Vatican than to thier country? No you @#&* $$s, what that Jewish school was doing was giving those kids an understanding of thier religion and thier heritege. And to at least partialy answer you last question, this comes from an American, a member of the United States Marine Corps, and a Jew!!! In that order.
Square dud: the Muslims have their own schools too...what u got to say bout that bubba? Pull your head out of your assimilate and get some fresh air.
Historically, Jews in France - as in most of Europe - have labored under a classic double-bind for centuries. Not allowed to assimilate because they do not practice Christianity, and then persecuted because of their alleged apartness or cosmopolitanism or parasitism. So the question you pose: "Are they Jews or Frenchmen first?" is worse than meaningless; it is psychotogenic. . .
Think: was Alfred Dreyfus French or Jewish? He always claimed he was French first, but the rabid anti-Semitic rabble of turn-of-the-century France heard only the quickening pulse of fear, scapegoating, and patriotic fervor pounding in their temples. 100+ years later, and little has changed. . .
Gee Square dude, should someone in this country choose to be a Christian first or a good American first?
What an ignorant and HORRIBLE thing to say in the wake of the murder of children....
And to sammy above: What the hell does this have to do with the second amendment of the United States??! This happened to Jewish schoolchildren in France, you paranoid moron...
Square Doo doo:
Since you are so ignorant, I will try to share a secret with you. Jewish is a religion. Being an American is a citizenship, our country, our homeland. That being said, when I read comments by people like you, I feel somewhat ashamed of our educational system. Obviously, you didn't learn anything about critical thinking or logic. You probably didn't go through the eighth grade and you probably have such a body odor that the stink from your brain and your body is overwhelming. You clearly are trash in the real sense of the word. Go back to your broken down, bed bug infested crap hole and try to have one reasonable thought. You truly
deserve moron of the day award.
SAICS said:
I'm a Jew that went to public school and I refuse to assimilate (which must mean convert to become a good Christian in your mind if having the audacity to have a religious school is considered refusal to assimilate).
I'm a currently practicing pagan who went to Catholic school for 12 years and still refused to assimilate into the Catholic culture. What God one believes is not an indicator of whether they are a good person or a good citizen.
@ Amanda
ITA. Also, a lack of belief in G-d is not an indicator that they are not a good person/citizen or that they lack "good" morals.
Not for nothing you people, but France was a Catholic nation, but because they've let so many others in, they've become a "secular" nation so as not to be "unfair" to the others. That's the way it goes, and is going here and everywhere in the West. (Also might have something to do with Westerners not wanting to be bothered with religion too).
@unbelievable
Please, learn your World History before making comments.
France officially became a secular nation in 1905 with the law of Separation of Church and State. At that time, the three major religions in the country were : Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism. Those three religions had not been imported recently, they had been practiced in the country for hundreds of years.
This law has nothing to do with being fair to the minorities, it is the ultimate step in the long process carried on by the Western governments in the previous 400 hundreds years to detach themselves from the authority of the Pope. It was of course more of a symbolic act; for the authority of the Pope on France had been already severely crippled by the French Revolution and the subsequent loss of power of the clergy.
This law officially recognized that it was possible to be French yet to be Calvinist, to be doubtful about the existence of God yet not to be shunned for it. This law basically says that religion doesn't matter, its purpose was to unite everybody despite their respective faiths (or lack of it) under a single status.
Secularism means liberty, you Americans often tend to forget that...
I guess guns are still doing what they were made to do. Where is the war against guns?
This is my .45 there are many like it but this one is mine,John T you tea baggee lol.
Stay in school
Um just one question, what has this got to do with Israel? Were the victims Israelis? If not then why did the Israeli embassy feel the need to issue a statement regarding this tragedy? I mean it’s not like the UK embassy (or anyone else’s) issued a statement over any US shootings.
Just because they're in France doesn't mean that they're french citizens, similarly in the US I'd expect the Israeli embassy to get involved if something like this happened here since many Jews in the US are citizens of Israel and not the US.
Ok but there has been nothing reported to indicate that they are not French citizens, and logic would say that they most likely are, so with that being said and until we find out otherwise one has to wonder why Israel is getting involved (by issuing an official statement) in a French case, because like I said before you don’t see other governments issuing statement in regards to other nations domestic crimes
I guess you don't get the whole being Jewish thing. They may or may not be citizens of the country that they reside in (there are a whole lot of foreign nationals living in France), but regardless they see Israel as their motherland and see themselves as dual citizens in that case.
Wow I guess I don’t get the whole “Jewish thing” and I’m pretty sure that if I made the claim that Jews see Israel as their homeland and that they regard themselves as having dual citizenship I’d be accused of being an anti-Semite. But oh well
gabber..... the vast majority of Jewish people in the US are in fact US Citizens. However, being Jewish also gives them the right to be dual citizenship persons, as many around the world are. Jews anywhere are considered part of the state of Israel regardless of their country of birth or current citizenship status.
I think we are going the wrong way with this conversation. I think there are Jews and then there are Zionists. Completely different.
Read the article. The school under attack was a Jewish school.
losmuertos, Calling me an antisemite for stating a fact by using a hypothetical as you did really shows your intellectual value or lack thereof.
XDm9mm - I never said anything about what percentage of Jews in the US were citizens, I don't know what you're trying to say other than reinforcing what I've already said.
The whole point was to address why the Israeli embassy would get involved.
Jewish country, frequently targeted by terrorists showing concern for french jews apparently targeted by a terrorist. What's the confusion??? If the Vatican made a statement about Cathlic school children gunned down by a terrorist in the US, would you also be confused?
Gabber
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I never called you an anti-Semite I said that if I made those comments people would most likely called me an anti-Semite, the reason being is A I’m not Jewish and B most people would take that kind of statement as implying that I thought Jews couldn’t be loyal to any country but Israel and were incapable of assimilating or other such negatives. As for you exactly I don’t know what you think about the whole “Jewish thing” but I wasn’t calling you an anti-Semite so please let’s not get needlessly mean here
I find it very humorous that the Obama left wing liberals are hitting on gun control. France has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and look what happens. Another socialist idea fails. Only the Obamaites can bend the facts in a case like this. And let’s not forget MSN not calling a spade a spade. French news is reporting an Arabic looking suspect but MSN will not? If course MSN dislikes the Israeli's and loves the Palestinian issue so they give the Muslim terrorist rat bastards a pass. Just like they do with Obama.
Seems like you're just lookin' for a fight, jerk. Israel issued a statement because the gunman targeted a Jewish school. That's antisemitism, and it is indeed Israel's place to address that around the world. In fact, any country could comment on the horror of little children being murdered, because it's a human tragedy. And let's not forget that a young man, a husband and father, was also killed.
To bring light to a few other comments:
Israelis are citizens of the country of Israel. Jews are people born Jewish (or converts). Zionism is the belief that the state of Israel has the right to exist.
There is no "being Jewish thing." There is the Jewish religion and the Jewish lineage, the people. Jews have a connection to the larger history and community of Jewish people throughout time and presently in the world; you can have that and feel that even if you are someone who does not practice the religion. Judaism is a religion AND a culture. Really—not so hard to understand. Most people who are born Christian will continue to feel and be Christian also even if they aren’t religious. The big difference is that Christians have a variety of theories and practices to choose from, and there isn’t one unique Christian “culture” as distinct as Judaism. Except at Christmas time.
There is no conflict in being Jewish and being a citizen of France, the US, or anywhere else. Just like you can be Christian and American, French, or Swiss, or whatever.
GABBER, it's not clear if you have good intentions but it IS clear you don't know what you're talking about. You said "many Jews in the US are citizens of Israel and not the US" and that's absurd. Have you taken a census? Did you, in that census, ask Jews if they consider Israel their "motherland"? Yes, Jews can become citizens of Israel as well as their home country. It’s an honor and a privilege, given that Jews have, throughout history, been forced out of so many places or murdered for being Jewish. But you’re wrong about Jews in the US being Israeli and not American citizens. American Jews are proud Americans and have helped build and sustain this country.
Finally, the murder of these children likely has nothing at all to do with Israel, which some on here have said. We won’t know until the facts are in, but anti-Semitism is raging not just in France but throughout Europe and if you haven't noticed, the US as well. Twisted, unhappy people like to 1) focus on others and 2) blame others for their unhappiness. Otherwise they'd have to clean their own house and figure out how to solve their own problems. Only a handful of decades have passed since Nazis crowded Jewish men, women, and children into cattle cars that took them to the camps and the gas chambers; one million Jewish kids alone were killed. Check this out (). Right there, a woman carrying a baby. And still there are morons who don’t get it, who still think it’s OK to hate—some of them commenting here. Well, they also murdered political activists, Roma, gay men and lesbians, dark-skinned people, people with disabilities, and others. Could have been you. Maybe it will be next time if you don’t learn.
Was trying to give link to Wikipedia--just go there and type in Holocaust and you'll see it.
Losmuertos in your previous response to me. You said
Well I did make nearly that exact statement in my post, if you weren't calling me an anti-semite, then what was the point of your comment?
Firefly, If you want to have a discussion, don't start by calling names nothing I said was unfactual or was it offensive except in response to those who sought offense.
Now, since I don't know what I'm talking about and you apparently do, then you've let us know that every person in the US of Jewish heritage is a US citizen - that's apparently what you're saying by countering what I stated. Actually I never stated that every Jewish person in the US is NOT a citizen of the US, just that many were not, not a majority, just a measurable number.
Whether a person of Jewish heritage practices the Hebrew faith, does not determine whether or not they consider themselves Jewish, thanks for stating the obvious though with your lineage/religion comment. What I am realizing though is that people like you try to complicate issues.
Whether a person is born in Israel, the US, or Russia (by the way many Russian Jews left around the time of the coup, so what does that make them now?), if they are of a Jewish lineage, they typically adhere to that heritage. I really don't know what you were trying to prove by your very verbose post, but your condescension comes from nothing but ignorance about those to whom you attempt to condescend
Gabber
My over-all point was that such comments don’t seem to go down well with lots of different folks because on the one hand you can be accused of saying Jews are only loyal to Israel and thus cannot be loyal to their country of birth/residence (that in a way they are in-capable of assimilating) or on that they do not want to assimilate, I apply this especially to me as I was the one who started this thread by asking why Israel felt the need to get involved, which to many automatically puts me in the anti-Israel crowed which automatically puts me in the anti-Semite crowd too, even though I’m neither.
I don't know if your question was ever answered or not, but Isreal probably issued a statement to show that they are mourning the loss of part of their family. after having 6 million people killed only 70+ years ago soley because of their religion, i'm sure they see the loss of each life as a tragedy that the entire country should reflect on.
it is the same reason GLAAD makes a statement when someone is killed for their sexual orientation. 4 million others we also killed in those camps-the communities are trying to show that they will not turn a blind eye to anyone trying to replicate those acts. Hateful intolerant bigots that try to make their point by taking a life should not be ignored. Isreal is trying to show that they will not be.
and for the record, I think this is the work of a serial killer. his (or her) religious background or reasons for killing are completely moot-they are commiting one of he worst acts they can commit. the fact that they are doing it in such a showy way and spaced apart shows that they are also doing it-and probably relishing-for the attention.
Losmuertos, thanks for trying to clear that up - somewhat. I think you should probably let those people (different folks you referred to) come to their own conclusions and speak their minds and not intimate that anything I said could in anyway be applied to you. I take full responsibility for every word that I post, and trust me, I've been blocked a few times for stating my opinion a little too plainly. I'm fully aware of all implications. I still think that you don't grasp the impact of your comment to which I originally called you on.
Kati Sanders
Thank you, I didn’t know GLAAD made similar statements, and thank you for offering an answer, it did seem a bit strange that another country would comment about the deaths of another countries citizens when it had nothing to do with it, as let’s face it that kind of behaviour doesn’t happen every day from nations now does it?
Gabber
Perhaps I admit I am not always the clearest person when I post (I do try though :) ) but either way I also stand by my comments as well (although I have never been blocked yet) and I have found (because I do tend to post a fair amount on Israel/Palestine issues) that people are very quick to brand one who says anything they can conceive as anti-Israeli an anti-Semite, well the more extreme ones are anyway
Really? That's like saying "there are African Americans and then there are those uppity ones who care about civil rights, completely different." Zionism is simply the worldwide liberation movement for Jews. There are not a lot of Jews who are not in some sense Zionists, even though they realize that we can and should criticize Israel and all other countries when they're wrong. But it isn't really possible to honestly say you hate Zionism but do NOT hate Jews. This is always a hypocritical lie.
All the focus on gun control, and something very obvious seems lost on many. If you've spoken to many french folks and get on any political subject, you'll recognize a strong sense of anti semitism pervades that country as evidenced by squaredudes comments above (my guess is he is/has some french heritage).
The French are not big fans neither Jews or Muslims, and to some extent even Christians.
The french are not too fond of anyone living outside of Paris, to the Parisienne, the rest of France is rather gauche. Come to think of it, some of the least friendly people in an airport all seem to be at Charles DeGaulle.
Yo John T...The facts do speak for themselves, and Russia is #1 in gun deaths worldwide, Followed by a whole host of third world countries.
Anyone who wants to take away the rights of American's is Un-American and should leave immediately, yes this means YOU!
The only people I can think of that can self-justify killing Children are muslim extremists.
Yep, but the only people I can think of raping children are old Christian males.
You think wrong.
Children, seniors, women, people praying at their temples (whatever religion) are not to be killed by Islamic laws. There are still a lot of Christians and churches in Muslim world, and Istanbul is one good example. Just recently US trained/influenced whacks has been doing wrong-doings under the name of Islam.
@mhender I'm a muslim and Please read this
this is the example of our prophet muhammad saying : ''
“I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly.”
dude don't put some bad comment if you don't know anything about islam!
''...Love for All, hatred for nothing''
Phenomunul those would be catholic priests not regular Christians .There is a difference .
It is less than amusing to see one rotten apple spoil an entire barrel. There are good priests, good Christians, good Muslims, etc. Problem is that the good people are always outgunned and outshouted by their rotten counterparts. The news is always about sensationalism so they cover the violence and the wicked, the remaining 99% are ignored because, well, they're good and good is boring. According to the media.
27 deleted, FJ1383 throwing flames, in part:
Banned, first comment flameout.
Of course you don't kill the women, you take the ones you want and pass out the others among the troops. At least that's what the Prophet actually did, as opposed to what he may have once said. You keep the children for future slaves.You don't destroy the place you just captured. It's too valuable. Why would you slaughter any edible animal except for food? Why would you burn the bees? Honey keeps up the energy of the troops. You don't "steal" from the booty, you just take it "lawfully" and find a nicer word for it.
But then again, for all I know ever religious leader was also a total hypocrite. We just know more about Mohammad because he lived at a later time in history. Maybe Siddhartha Buddha spent all his time whoring and getting drunk. Maybe Moses ordered everyone to out and bring him ham sandwiches while they were making do with mannah. Maybe Jesus got into fist fights for fun and attended orgies. /sarcasm
@OomYaaqub
Where did you pull that one out of? Wikipedia or your a$$.
somedude-506636
I wan't think only thinking of priests I was also thinking of the Ex Penn State football coach.
Phenomenal112, do you know ANYTHING about the life of Muhammad? It is common knowledge that he slaughtered several hundred Jews and then took one of the widows as his wife.
I quess it is not surprising that an MSNBC article would omit any description of the gunman. Always PC to the max.
Well, there is not a lot to say, even on the French websites because the man was helmeted while he killed the soldiers and although I can find no reports indicating it, he probably wore his helmet when he entered the school too.
All they say is that he is rather corpulent and a witness saw a tatoo on his face near his eyes while his visor was up.
But another witness in the BBC story said he (perp) looked "small." Obviously still a work in progress I.D.-ing the S.O.B.
Maybe he's short and fat?
Shouldn't there be an apology....oh to busy fund raising or bracket busting
Who do you want to apologize? The killer?
phil5865. I went to the webpage you listed, and nothing is said about the religion of the soldiers who were killed. It seems that you saw North Africa, and assumed they were muslims. There are a fair amount of Christians and Jews living in North Africa. They are a minority, just as Muslims are a minority in North America. At least two of their last names were French. Do a little intelligent reading, before you make comments.
Tiredoflosers, why don't you come out and say what you actually mean. I'm not sure what's wrong with apologising for stupid mistakes. Get over it.