Yes, of course - it's fine that women and children were murdered in their beds. Just because the guy who did it is an American?

Revenge killings are common in every armed conflict waged by every group throughout history. It is not some distinctly Afghan practice. My grandfather served in WWII. He was at Normandy. He has said many times that he is glad that his commanders kept images of the death camps from the troops because there was a real chance that they would have slaughtered civilians had they known about it. I guess what makes my grandfather (who is far from a perfect man, but a good man nonetheless) different from some of the troglodytes around here is that he acknowledges that massacring innocent people would have been a bad thing.

After 10 years of reading and hearing about this conflict and watching how the Afghanistan government works at different levels I have absolute faith that these villagers are now telling the truth.............Sarcasm.

Doesn't change the fact that the soldier should be held accountable.

what part of it's their country... does our government not understand...leave the crap hole...

Mike P101 - Although "It is understandable that they would think that way considering that is what they do" it doesn't mean that it is true that our troops (more than one person) lined them up and threatened revenge. If a group threatened revenge, why didn't a group carry out the retaliation. Even if the Sgt did do it as a result of his friend losing his leg from that bomb, I believe their claim is bogus. And I agree w/ gtouch - it doesn't change the fact that the soldier should be held accountable.

Sh*t happens, let's move on.

Our soldiers have been shot at, roadside bombed, snipped on, massacred, a whole platoon of the most elite soldiers in the world were ambushed while in the air; not a single one survived....yet you dont see us running around with laundry on our heads...

Give the soldier a break, he just snapped...not to say what he did was right, but then again, this chicken war against our soldiers aint right either...it's a dirty war out there and both sides know this...

He deserves a fair trial.....matter of fact he should be given bail...2 tours of duty then jail, c'mon folks; least ya can do as Americans is give him time with the family while he awaits trial....

RealAmericanfirst, no it is not ok, but how can he be judged fairly by an enemy that uses propaganda & torture on their people in the name of some god. Their accounts changes daily & they burned the dead before either side could investage or some type of autopsy was done.

No one should get away with MURDERING 9 children. If that happened here in the US, everyone would be calling for this guy's head on a platter. It doesn't matter what else happened around him, there is no excuse for MURDERING 9 children. Just hand this sick baby killing SOB over to the Afghans.

He will be judged by a military tribunal, containing service members who may not be OK with how his acts have stained the honor of the unit and the nation. I do believe them, simply because it makes sense. This soldier has a track record of "losing it," see his court-ordered anger management classes and the incident of domestic violence. I think there's a reason why he wasn't promoted and we're looking at it.

I never said it was ok for American troops to kill innocent civilians, it's not ever! It's also not ok for them to kill American civilians, which is what put our troops there in the first place. Furthermore, it's wrong for civilians to kill American soldiers who are there trying to help them.

I agree that revenge killings occur in many places, even in the US. The difference is that a majority (growing smaller) of our population consider such morally and culturally wrong. There (and yes elsewhere.. but the story is talking about there) a huge majority consider it morally/socially acceptable and common place, so when people are killed it's the first logical conclusion for them to make.

i think they sould hand you over

This is why it is time to pull out of Afghanistan and hand the country back to the natives. The original battle plan should never of included a ground force there. Invading and occupying a country that has never been successfully occupied in recorded history is a fool's errand. Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires and we have at least one foot in the grave.

The tribunal won't be there to see if people think what he did was "ok." The tribunal is there to determine if there is enough evidence to convict him of a crime.

Hello folks, the more information that comes out the more suspect I am of the entire story. The media is in full on demonizing mode of this guy. Afghan villagers where the murders took place and President Karzai are saying that more than one soldier was involved. They are saying it was a dozen to twenty soldiers. I don't know what the real truth is. What I do know is that we were lied to about the Jessica Lynch rescue and the Pat Tillman killing. It probably will be some time before the entire story comes out but I hope it will be the truth.

Sorry, it is never O.K. to kill babies in their beds...NEVER

I doubt that this had anything to do with revenge since the killings were not carried out in the same village as where the IED explosion occurred. It is pretty obvious that this guy just lost it. I find it disturbing that this is yet another soldier from Joint Base Lewis-McChord that has been involved in criminal acts. There is something seriously wrong at that base and with the medical staff that is screening these soldiers for PTSD, TBIs, and other psychological problems. I do not know whether it is an incompetent medical staff and clueless command structure or if the medical staff is being pressured by the command not to make the diagnoses. All I know is that they are apparently clearing quite a few soldiers for additional combat deployments who may not be fit. In either case, the leadership at that base and the medical staff need to be cleaned out and replaced with some competent people willing to do their jobs properly.

Unfortunately, I think that politics will come into play and this soldier will not be allowed to present a defense of temporary insanity or diminished mental capacity. Anything short of a death sentence will cause too many problems for the administration. There have already been statements made that they are planning on seeking the death penalty in this case. This is being done to appease the Afghani government and people. I feel that this is one case where the outcome of the court martial is a foregone conclusion. Despite strict regulations to try and prevent it, I think that there is going to be considerable undue command influence all the way from the Commander in Chief on down to find this staff sergeant guilty and sentence him to death. I am in no way defending what this soldier did, I am just very concerned that he is not going to receive a fair trial. There are medical records showing that he suffered a TBI in a vehicle accident but the medical staff at Lewis-McChord is already circling the wagons saying there was no permanent injury and that he was fine and fit to be deployed. Having had experience dealing with someone who was close to me who suffered a TBI, I can tell you that they can appear fine in some situations, with the problems only coming out under certain conditions, particularly when under stress. I am not a doctor and have not seen this soldier's medical records, I just hope that he gets a fair trial and that incompetent doctors trying to cover their asses do not help railroad this guy into a lethal injection. If he was competent and truly fit for duty, then he does deserve the death penalty for what he did. I just want to see him get a fair trial.

This mess is just another symptom that the US has stayed in this backwards country far too long. My vote is: Leave, now!

"yet you dont see us running around with laundry on our heads..."

How ignorant can you be? "Wearing laundry" on one's head isn't some inherent sign of savagery. If you had to work outside for long periods of time under the hot sun, you would want something protecting your head too.

We murder a few Afghan families and all we can respond with is "That's how THEY are" or "Give our guy a break"?

We clearly have some of the most fowl people on earth right here in the U.S.

Yes, I said HERE.

It may be that he just snapped... maybe not.

It may be that he acted alone... maybe not.

It could also be that the civilians are telling the truth and that our soldiers took revenge and only one got caught returning to base.

But until we know, the bull@!$%# opinions either against him or the civilians are just that... bull@!$%#.

"Its unfortunate that children were killed but then again they would simply have grown up to be more bomb throwing, children killing rapist and murderers that prey on those they consider non-believers."

Absolutely disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a foul inhuman thing.

Sorry, it is never O.K. to kill babies in their beds...NEVER

...only in the womb.

Tell me, Atlas-- who is John Galt? I can't really remember, because I never got to the end of the end of one of the most hilariously awful novels in the history of literature.

Tell me, Atlas-- who is John Galt? I can't really remember, because I never got to the end of the end of one of the most hilariously awful novels in the history of literature.

If I had to guess, you've never opened the book. You can lie to me, just don't lie to yourself.

So there are two possibilities here. Either the Afghans are telling the truth, meaning that our soldiers are going crazy after too many tours, or they are conspiring together and making it up, in which case it is obvious that our government's (read: corporations') mission over there has completely and utterly failed. In either case, we need to get the heck outta there and let those people do what they wish. Our men and women in uniform deserve better.

For twelve years, you have been asking: Who is John Galt? This
is John Galt speaking. I am the man who loves his life. I am the man who does
not sacrifice his love or his values. I am the man who has deprived you of
victims and thus has destroyed your world, and if you wish to know why you are
perishing -- you who dread knowledge -- I am the man who will now tell you.

You have heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis. You
have said it yourself, half in fear, half in hope that the words had no meaning.
You have cried that man's sins are destroying the world and you have cursed
human nature for its unwillingness to practice the virtues you demanded. Since
virtue, to you, consists of sacrifice, you have demanded more sacrifices at
every successive disaster.

In the name of a return to morality, you have sacrificed all
those evils, which you held as the cause of your plight. You have sacrificed
justice to mercy. You have sacrificed independence to unity. You have sacrificed
reason to faith. You have sacrificed wealth to need. You have sacrificed
self-esteem to self-denial. You have sacrificed happiness to duty.

You have destroyed all that which you held to be evil and
achieved all that which you held to be good. Why, then, do you shrink in horror
from the sight of the world around you? That world is not the product of your
sins; it is the product and the image of your virtues. It is your moral ideal
brought into reality in its full and final perfection.

You have fought for it, you have dreamed of it, and you have
wished it, and I-I am the man who has granted you your wish.

Your ideal had an implacable enemy, which your code of morality
was designed to destroy. I have withdrawn that enemy. I have taken it out of
your way and out of your reach. I have removed the source of all those evils you
were sacrificing one by one. I have ended your battle. I have stopped your
motor. I have deprived your world of man's mind.

Men do not live by the mind, you say? I have withdrawn those
who do. The mind is impotent, you say? I have withdrawn those whose mind isn't.
There are values higher than the mind, you say? I have withdrawn those for whom
there aren't.

While you were dragging to your sacrificial altars the men of
justice, of independence, of reason, of wealth, of self-esteem -- I beat you to
it, I reached them first. I told them the nature of the game you were playing
and the nature of that moral code of yours, which they had been too innocently
generous to grasp. I showed them the way to live by another morality-mine. It is
mine that they chose to follow.

All the men who have vanished, the men you hated, yet dreaded
to lose, it is I who have taken them away from you. Do not attempt to find us.
We do not choose to be found. Do not cry that it is our duty to serve you. We do
not recognize such duty. Do not cry that you need us. We do not consider need a
claim. Do not cry that you own us. You don't. Do not beg us to return. We are on
strike, we, the men of the mind.

"If I had to guess, you've never opened the book. You can lie to me, just don't lie to yourself."

If you made that guess you would be OBJECTIVELY incorrect! Why that would be as wrong as saying that A does not equal A! Thanks for the quote-- just a reminder of how truly horrible Ayn Rand's prose is.

We shouldn't even be there. George Bush was an idiot and a liar with his WMD claims.

"Villagers: Afghan slayings were act of retaliation"
Yes, the tit for tat started with burning of Kurans. The Afghanis countered with killing US Service members--and then, "our guy" decided to kill a bunch of children.

Stay to hell out of other countries and we won't have these folks killing and being killed.

Couldn't they have just burned some bibles and called it even?

We need to stay out of other countries business.

DocHolliday-2979123--had this to say:

....yet you dont see us running around with laundry on our heads...

Ummm, no, but we do see men running around with little pieces of cloth tied around their necks. We also see women running around with little pieces of metal sticking through holes in their earlobes.

Wearing a head covering in that part of the world is a little something called "smart." For the same reason you see men in the western US with what we call "cowboy hats." There isn't a substantial difference between the function of a cowboy hat and bandanna and one of those turbans you see on Afghan men. They are both aesthetic (they are very hard to tie correctly--rather like a bow tie) and functional; they protect one's head and the trailing section (when there is one) can be used to cover one's face in a sandstorm.

If a person who is a soldier kills a group of non-combatants--particularly children--it doesn't matter if the soldier is part of an invading army from the US or from anywhere else. It's an atrocity, no matter who does it. It also does not matter that soldiers have suffered--that's their job. They sign up to be placed in harm's way, and sadly, they often are. They volunteered. If they don't like being soldiers, then they shouldn't have taken the job.

Whether or not they are properly treated by the US for their service is a separate issue--they are not, that does matter, and we should all get together and do something about it--but it's not a reason to run around killing Afghanis in their beds.

Any person who cannot grasp this simple idea really needs to turn in his or her "Christian" card immediately, as s/he is an embarrassment to the entire Christian community.

This was an act of cowardice.... there is no justification for it!

What the F is wrong with you people. You all aparently know exactly what happened because you where all there. Maybe they are telling the truth maybe they are lying. I don't know and niether do you. Shut the F up about " I know he did it, and he needs to pay." Let the justice system work. If he is guilty than punish him, if not then get to the bottom of what really happened. I'm sorry for the language but i'm sick of everyone becomeing a judge, just from what they hear in the media.

Sam Spade-3481790 That was Iraq not Afghanistan. Get your facts straight.

Yeah, Sam Spade is totally out of touch with which country is in question here.

Sam Spade-- What Afghanistan's Taliban government did was conceal Osama Bin Laden from us, particularly after 9/11. It is no secret that the people were hostile toward us. We had every right to go in there, but unfortunately, they were still able to protect him and he got to Pakistan.

PeachWookiee said:

What Afghanistan's Taliban government did was conceal Osama Bin Laden from us

Shame we didn't send a seal team in the first place, could have saved two wars, 7 trillion dollars and the lives & life changing injuries of so many of our troops.

Besides, the Taliban were there when we invaded, and we will hand the keys back to the Taliban when we leave. Which means the war didn't do squat but waste time, money, and lives.

Unless those kids had bombs strapped to their chests and were running into the base, there was no reason for them to be shot at all.

Anybody notice that NOBODY has been rioting over this? The Afghanis understand revenge- it's all they live for.

Now, the Koran- that's a differant story!

Ritdog so true.....Kill my kid no problem I have others.......blow up my house no worries it was made of mud anyway.........burn a book that I cannot even read........DEATH!

Yeah, but its obvious why they're like that. It's not rocket science to make another kid or house, but when you're illiterate, making a new book is damn near impossible...

Anyone notice this ...

"One of the villagers asked what was happening," he said. "The Afghan army soldier told him 'Shut up and stand there.'"

Mohammad said a U.S. soldier, speaking through a translator, then said: "I know you are all involved and you support the insurgents. So now, you will pay for it — you and your children will pay for this.'"

The Afghan soldier shows no respect to his own people and then the villager says the American said "XXX" through an interpreter.

Guess we all need to wait for the results.

You know I was thinking since 72% of Afghans cannot read I wonder if some of them are running around with a "Harry Potter" book or something else and think it's a Koran?

That depends on how many of them know if Mohamed has a lightning bolt shaped scar over his right eye. It's a little tough to tell when you're never allowed to draw his image...

You know it’s awfully convenient that you guys have forgotten the importance of symbolism in this whole Koran burning issue, so allow me to give you an analogy, how about I (as a Brit) come over and burn The Declaration of Independence? Then we’ll see how many of you want to kill me or better yet how about I come over wearing a British Army uniform and proclaim that I am acting on behalf of and representing the people of England and then burn the Declaration of Independence? And then see how many of you want to kill English people.

You must not know any Americans. We wouldn't care about you burning a copy of the Declaration. We've got laws that allow people to act like @!$%#s as long as they don't actually hurt anybody. You'd be perfectly safe. Our own people burn our flag (which has more meaning for more people here) and none of them get killed for it. There's absolutely nothing that you could burn in the US that would turn us into an angry, murderous mob.

Come do it, freedom of speech.

Oh yeah? What about the Twin Towers? (harsh I know) but my overall point is that the burning of the Koran has a significance to these people that 9/11 has to Americans

Los Muertos,

If I am not mistaken you brits already tried that once back in the early 1800s, how has that worked out for you? I believe you already took a turn in Afghanistan (Syria, Iraq and Palestine too) so the argument could be made that the United States is simply cleaning up the mess you left for the rest of the world in the Middle East at the end of World War II (which I also believe we assisted you with just a teeny bit!!!).

well played ^^^^

JP-441785

Oh god there is always someone who wants to bring up WW2, can’t you let that rest, most of the world has moved on since then why cannot you? Oh and as for Afghanistan Britain fought 3 wars there (not counting the present) and we won the last two as well, anyway my point is (in case you missed it) that according to them you didn’t just burn a book, you burned a symbol of their culture and so on it’d be no different than if someone else was to destroy symbols of American culture like the Declaration of Independence or the Twin Towers

@Losmuertos

The Twin Towers do not equate to the Koran. There aren't millions of copies of the Twin Towers world wide. And you certainly couldn't burn the Twin Towers without causing harm to anyone

As was previously stated, feel free to burn a copy of the Deceleration of Independence (Not the original, as it has historical value), or a copy of the Constitution (Again, not the original), or the American Flag, or the Bible, or anything else you want to burn. As long as nobody gets hurt and nobody else's property gets destroyed, Americans could really care less.

Americans don't care because we have such a mix of different cultures. It's kind of tough to offend the whole nation religiously through one certain act. Compared to somewhere in many Muslim nations where other religions are usually viewed as a threat and either run out of town or eliminated.

@Losmuertos

The U.S. has embraced diversity so the only symbol that has value to Americans is the greenback dollar. I guess if you want to burn dollars you can, but the treasury department may have you arrested for destroying currency.

I take your point but don't think America is homogeneous enough to have a national symbol, excepting the greenback.

Los muertos,

I would love to move on exept that the Second World War set the conditions for world history during the past 70 years. Given your sensitivity to the issue let's move along. Britain fought in and controlled Afghanistan from 1842 to 1919, cutting deals and empowering rulers to their liking throughout the Middle East. Britain established the "King" of Saudi Arabia, the sheikdom of Kuwait, British Mandate of Mesopotamia (Iraq), invaded Iran during World War II and installed Mohammed Reza Pahlavi (the Shah of Iran) and let's not forget the Balfour Agreement which established a Jewish homeland in Palestine at the end of World War One (sorry, didn't mean to bring up World War One) The Middle East was messed up long before the United States got involved and not only by Britain but by France and the former USSR as well.

Islam is a religion, those who practice Islam are called Muslims not Afghans. Islam is deeply ingrained into the Afghan culture as well as most of the countries of that region but it is a religion, not a culture or an ethnic race.

The United States did not start this conflict over the burning of a book, we started it over the deaths of more than 3000 people on September 11th, 2001 and the refusal of the Taliban to hand over those responsible for planning and resourcing this attack and others (WTC 1993, USS Cole, Kenya Embassy bombings). So I definitely get your point about attacking symbols of culture.

Scubasteve58001

Hmmm in a way the Twin Towers do equate to the Koran, not physically of course but symbolically (which is one of the reasons why they were chosen) after all the Koran stands for a large part of Middle eastern culture and identity and the Twin Towers stood for American creativity and so on, Just like the Declaration stands for American values but if you don’t think I’m right I suggest a little test, get a bible (another book with millions of copies) go to the bible belt and burn it in front of a lot of people, just see if you do not get a hostile reaction from that crowed.

Ps I understand that some may feel that I am defending the Afghans reaction, the truth is I am not, all I am saying is that I can understand it and that for us to deny that to them the Koran has a symbolism when we put symbolism on material things is a double standard at best

Losmuertos. You fail. You are actually equating the burning of some Korans to Hijacking 3 airplanes full of innocent civilians and flying them into building full of thousands of other innocent civilians? That those acts are the same in terms of "symbol of their culture". A burned book vs. the deaths of 3,000 people? That is an asinine comparison on any level. And your first attempt was just as nonsensical.

There IS the original copy of the Declaration of Independence. Then there are millions of replicas of it. You can buy them all over Washington D.C. as souvenirs. People in America don't care a whit if you wanna buy a hundred of them and start a campfire with them. Throw on a few American flags too. Even most Christians I know aren't going to lose control if you want to burn some Bibles. 99% of Americans are not going to agree with you doing it, but if you buy them and own them and want to burn them...it is your right. NATO didn't burn THE Koran...the original copy, and I don't think you were trying to say you would burn THE original Declaration of Independence because that would be even a dumber attempt at an analogy.

And since you have already attempted (and failed miserably) to try and defend the medival idea that somehow the accidental burning of a copy of a holy book is somehow comparative and justifiable to mass murder...you probably should just stop trying. I know you are going to want to jump back on and try and explain it to us all...that we should try and understand how "symbolic" the Koran is to a Muslim, and that we should all be empathetic to their reaction to some of them being burned. That somehow it is completely understandable that they would riot and kill people over some books, but just don't. That whole argument to any educated person not trying to live in the 12th century is just laughable. And the fact that a believer in Islam might try and defend murder...the taking of a life that God or Allah put here on this earth because some paper, ink, and leather were burned no matter what was printed on the pages is the entire problem.

And someone up above was right to a certain extent. I know world history. The current maps of the Middle East look the way they do because of the imperialism of the British and French empires over the past 200 years. (Almost a 1,000 years if you go back to European crusaders answering the church's call to attack Islam in the Holy Land). The ethnic problems, dangerous mixes of Sunni & Shiite & Kurdish populations, language & tribal barriers within national boundaries, and their fatal mistrust of Western motivations and policy? All of that can be traced back to first European crusading and second European (and largely British) Imperialism and economic opportunism.

Since you are a Brit, I'll go so far as to proclaim that the world community as a whole can collectively say a big, gigantic "gee thanks" to Great Britain for making such a mess of the Middle East. That is what happens when you pillage and exploit populations and territories for hundreds of years, they end up being dirt poor, ignorant, with few resources, living in the 12 century. If it wasn't for oil, most of these countries would have nothing. Ironic that an informed Brit would ever lecture any other country for acting insensitively or imperialistically, huh?

JP-441785

Arguably it was WW1 that set the political scene for much of the Middle East as opposed to WW2, but since we could be discussing that all night I suggest we leave it, and I will admit that the language I used in my first post was a bit provocative, but I thought is was the best way to prove my point, that being that the Koran does have a symbolic value to Afghans (and Muslims in general) that far outweighs the physical. Yet most of the attitudes I have encountered on here about it is “who cares it’s just a book”

Losmuertos-

We'll print another...hell, we'll probably print one that can't be distinguished from the original. Burning the Declaration won't erase the history of the asswhoopin' the new brits put on the old brits.

It's possible that the villagers were told that there would be revenge against their woman and children. This statement was made through a translator who may not have said what the American soldier told him to say. The Afghan soldiers present heard this and didn't do or say anything. Who knows what allegiance these soldiers and translators had. The may have been working for the Taliban and this was a setup for some propaganda. Maybe these multiple perpetrators were Taliban dressed as Americans. Of course it's hard to explain how Bales would have been involved, but then who knows what happened with him. There is nothing said so far that puts him at the scene of the murders. All we know is that he supposedly said "I did it."

Losmuertos -

Don't worry, some people just don't understand that playing devil's advocate allows you to achieve a more intimate and accurate conceptualization of another party's perspective. In other words they are just kinda dumb.

I feel obliged for some reason to assure you they do not represent the average American.

Losmuertos,

Dude you are just a plain old Dik!!!!! Someone should burn you!

Then use 100 copies of the koran to keep the fire going to make sure there is nothing left.

Ghengis Khan and rouge-871393

Feel better now do we? Yes I’m the bad guy here how dare I hold an opposing view to yours and how dare I play devil’s advocate I must be sick huh? (Rolls eyes)

Bogy Registrar

Thanks I knew some would “get” what I was trying to do, and don’t worry I know that most of the venomous pots I have received here do not represent the majority of Americans, just like I don’t represent the majority of Brits

losmuertos, Let me help you to understand what many other posters are saying to you. I will KISS-ify it for you (Keep It Simple Stupid):

A book is an inanimate object. The Koran is a book. A book contains words.

The Twin Towers were buildings. Buildings contain people! And let's never forget the four planes (one for each tower, one for the Pentagon, & the one where the passengers went after the terrorists and crashed in PA).

So how does an inanimate object being burn equate to humans being murder?

Julie-401527

It’s not that I don’t understand what they are saying, it’s that they are wrong, the Koran is not just a book to Muslims it is a symbol an icon of their identity if you will thus for someone (especially non-Muslims) to destroy it in such a manner is bound to spark outrage, and thus I compared it to an act like burning the Declaration, or The Twin Towers but in all fairness an any act of symbolic destruction will do.

But if you don’t believe in the power of symbols then I ask you this, why is it illegal to show a swastika in Germany? Is it because swastikas are evil and dangerous? Or is it because they are symbolic of the Nazi party?

They also said a group of drunken, laughing soldiers were the ones who did the killings. There's a game called "Telephone" that you might want to look up.

I do not doubt that something happened which fueled this story from the villagers--though it sounds to me like it is getting elaborated on (the part about even the children suffering seems added on). If the people in the villages only speak the native language, then the translation issue becomes an even greater wrinkle. It becomes very difficult to know precisely what happened.

As for your point about the Koran--you are very wrong. You could burn the Declaration of Independence, and it is nothing like burning the Koran. Burning the Koran is more like spitting on the grave of Christ (if we knew where Christ was buried before he was resurrected). It is an act of blasphemy.

People in the US don't really understand the concept of blasphemy, as we do not have a single, authorized religion as many other places do, and what is fine for one group of US citizens is blasphemous to another. We are used to people getting up and screaming "blasphemy," and not meaning a word of it.

In any case, it's kind of a joke for anyone who is British to make comments about the US--the sun never set on the British Empire at once time, because the British had no problem stringing up or shooting or drowning anyone who got in their way. I think we would not have much trouble finding a small town in Ireland which has a similar, fairly recent, story about a British soldier or two.

What English commander was it who drove the Irish into the sea to drown--men, women, and children?

It wouldn't surprise me either. And, sadly, as awful as it is to think it possible there's no denying at some level it could be understood that NATO troops must be sick and tired of roadside bombs and being in harms way by insurgents when they see their role as befriending or protecting the Afghan people. I could see a scenario in which they, or a few troops, or just one decided they had enough and were going to threaten to teach a lesson to the villagers to stop protecting Taliban (real or perceived).

And then say a bit of drinking and its decided whose turn it is to teach the lesson they threatened would be taught.

Of course if something like that went down then this soldier is more evil than imaginable. However, until all the facts eventually come up I tend to believe this is a case of him having delusions and some psychotic episode that had him "seeing" and killing the "enemy" Taliban in his head as he was murdering women, children and families in their own homes.

In Connecticut a major story in the last few years was a home invasion in which two guys held a family hostage in their home and killed the mother and two daughters in their home, and then burned the home down. The entire state still feels the disgust and outrage and most of the people supported - and practically begged for - death sentences for the two murderers involved.

Ironically I'm not hearing the same outcries against Bales or whoever ends up ultimately being determined responsible for the mass murder, terrorizing and burning of Afghan people in their homes while they slept in the middle of the night.

Beanathome

I don’t know why you decided to bring up my nationality or Ireland (since this is about an atrocity committed by an American soldier in Afghanistan) but seeing as you did then please allow me to defend my nations troops with the exact same excuse your fellow countrymen use to defend theirs

It’s all their fault if they weren’t bombing us first or shooting at our glorious occupying soldiers we wouldn’t have to be there or shoot them.

See how this works?

According to my son, roadside bombs aren't even unusual there. His unit would be killing villagers nearly everyday if that was the normal answer for every IED they come in contact with.

Your right, there is not excuse for these deaths, and those all of those involved should face justice. However, another fact is the enemies of the US is using this horrible incident to gather more terrorist in the name of Islam. I still question how one person made it to two villages & took so many so called innocent lives & yet not one village had enough men or even one man brave enough to defend their familes.

I've heard this mentioned before, but I've never seen the full clip that would justify the parts that I have seen-- can you link the youtube clip, or if that's not possible just tell me how long the full video is so I can take a look?

One-Eyed Undertaker - no one is using the bombing as an excuse for the massacre. Everyone agrees the shooting is an atrocity. And in case you haven't noticed folks, nothing gets solved in a decade in the Middle East. These guys are in it for the long haul. In their eyes a decade isn't long especially when compared to wars lasting 100 yrs.

Apparently there are some on here who are excusing away the massacre, so not everyone believes it's an atrocity. Just sayin'

Lev- i've seen the long video of the King beating- there is nothing on there that justifies the beating you have seen. think it was about 4 mins long, the short one is right around a minute. if anything, the 'selective editing' bill talks about above cuts out some of the worst parts, and the part where they yell racial slurs at his bleeding unconscious body.

Go to Medical school, do a residency in Psychiatry, practice for about ten years and then say what you just said. You are ignorant at best and an idiot, which I believe, at worst.

So much for innocent till PROVEN guilty...

@ Sanders

He admitted it!

@Matt-2631617

By your logic then we probably should have let Jeffrey Dahmer go too, he obviously had mental issues inorder to kill men and boys and mutulate their bodies. S**T obviously he was crazy, its a shame he had to go to prison and get brutaly murdered. Shame shame shame.

Seriously, I've said this before and I will say it again. Anyone that defends this man, who killed 9 defensless children, is just as lost and evil as this man is. Nothing excuses the murder of a child. But @!$%# we live in America. This is the same country that allowed a 20 something whore get away with murdering her little girl (Caylee Anthony). What more can we expect. Damn I'm proud to be an American.

@ Infinity: Ditto and Ditto again!

Wm Sanders: 'Innocent until proven guilty'. What more of an admission of guilt do you need when the murderer, as soon as he came back to base says he did it? I am all for giving him a fair trial as that is his right as an American and as a member of the armed forces, but I think the innocent factor is pretty much out the window for the murderer.

Blue Star Republic (oh, I guess your name is actually Matt): You are da---d welcome to leave 'America' any time if this place is so bad !! It still is innocent until proven guilty by a JURY, not some random mouthy smart-a$$. Frankly, the more I hear about the 'slaughter' the more I am suspecting someone among them did it, especially since the Afghan soldier claims they were told something to the effect that there would be retaliation. I am not willing to believe any of our military personnel would make accusations against "... children." Isn't it strange that the bodies were so quickly removed... when every other slaughter (by their own people and Taliban).. the bodies are paraded through town. There is NO EVIDENCE that children were harmed at all !! No way to get any kind of evidence to incriminate anyone of a U.S. firearm being used. There are just way too many suspicious statements and actions to make me jump to a conclusion any one, or more, of our military did this. We, the U.S. citizens, and the accused man, all deserve to have actual evidence before convicting anyone. Plus it is totally within their customs to lie and blame someone else... I'm not buying this story --- yet.

Until he is convicted by a jury of his peers, he is still innocent...confession and evidence notwithstanding. Also there is still his mental state.

Even though there is proof, until we know the whole picture, we should be careful before we rush to judgement. That's why we have trials for convictions, not the word of Nancy Grace.

Wm-

Until he is convicted by a jury of his peers, he is still innocent...confession and evidence notwithstanding. Also there is still his mental state.

Even though there is proof, until we know the whole picture, we should be careful before we rush to judgement. That's why we have trials for convictions, not the word of Nancy Grace.

While I agree for the most part, the military doesn't abide by the same laws; also, we now have the NDAA.

Native PNW Resident--tell me, why is it that when the Tea Party types run around complaining about the direction of the US, or when conservatives complain about the president of the United States, you are all "patriots." But, when someone else complains that someone who represents the US has done something appalling, we are all free to "leave"?

This is not "your" country that you can throw other people out of--not when those others are also citizens. We all have the right to complain, and we all have the right to have our own opinions--and just because they do not coincide with yours . . . well, that really doesn't matter at all.

The military has admitted that there was a massacre. They have admitted that children were murdered. The military would not be admitting these things and asking the president to apologize, which he did, if there were any plausible deniability at all. If you cannot grasp that the military would not be admitting guilt and transporting the given soldier out of Afghanistan and refusing to give his name until he was out--if the man were not very certainly guilty--then you have some serious issues with understanding how the world works.

The soldier admitted his crimes to his fellow soldiers. Whether or not he is "guilty" is going to depend on whether or not he can claim he was insane. Once he pleads in court--we'll know for sure--but seriously, believing that murders didn't actually occur is really fairly absurd, don't you think.

To do away with these four and five tours of duty we need to bring back the DRAFT

The draft will get the attention of the Chicken Hawks.

Then we'll stop running around shooting up the world.

They'll never reinstate the draft. Too many politicians kids might have to go!

maze1992

Bring back the draft? Is that despite that many military historians claim that one of the reasons why America lost the Vietnam War was because of the draft? As troops were rotated out on a yearly and individual basis and thus A pretty much ended up leaving just when they had gotten used to their assigned area and B units were not able to establish an effective esprit-de-corps for the same reasons.

Also is that also despite the fact that warfare (for the west) is getting increasingly high-tech and thus making “big battalions” redundant? I mean you have heard how people are (practically) screaming for less boots on the ground and more drones right?

Maze,

Absolutely correct. If we had more skin in the game, we wouldn't be so quick to jump into these situations.

And how is it obvious that this is PTSD? I have a former Army psychiatrist in my family and he says that it does NOT appear to be PTSD, but that the soldier knew what he was doing and acted in hopes of blaming it on PTSD. Soldiers with PTSD tend to instantly react in a situation that triggers the event (such as reacting when a fellow soldier loses a leg). They don't go back to base and spend hours brooding on the incident before making the decision to sneak out of their barracks, go kill 16 civilians, and instantly surrender when confronted. His actions are those of a competent person who's aware of what he was doing.

should make the people on social programs and in h.u.d join for job training. should have them join the military to get off these programs,if they don't kick them off the program. there is a way anyone can serve. enough is enough,stop paying these free loaders all the time. cut the money tree off for them. when i joined the Marines i was only 17,but i got a job and training that i use in the community.when i left the service i left with an a.a degree,close to finishing my b.a. degree. so it can be done.

SEMPER FI

DANNY P

RETIRED

Sounds good. just cut off the poor, send them to basic and ship 'em out. Great idea you heartless jerkoff.

Ah, name calling! How about accepting his position that we send them to basic training and put them on a real payroll?

azazel,

they should send you with them, phag!

You can serve and be "out" now thanx to barry.

Losmuertos

The draft worked in WWII, Vietnam, like Afghanistan is a no win situation unless the U.S. is prepared for a 100 year occupation.

Michael-412302

I wouldn't trust a military psychiatrist as far as I could throw one, I can name 10 cases of mis-diagnosed PTSD these @!$%#s missed when I served.

Steve C-526943

“The draft worked in WWII”

That was a completely different war dude, for a start it was a total war which most people have agreed never to fight again (which I believe the fact that ¾ of the casualties were civilians) and again with the increasing emphasis on high-tech, it means that really the military is only going to get smaller

Bring back the draft? Is that despite that many military historians claim that one of the reasons why America lost the Vietnam War was because of the draft? As troops were rotated out on a yearly and individual basis and thus A pretty much ended up leaving just when they had gotten used to their assigned area and B units were not able to establish an effective esprit-de-corps for the same reasons.

Bang! You're dead on! I'm retired Army and would not want to see the draft. And as you stated later, WWII was a different war.

However my concern is the reduction in troops. We did it after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War '91. Each time we reduce our forces so drastically that we couldn't (or had a very hard time) fielding troops. It seems we never learn from history.

Julie-401527

“However my concern is the reduction in troops. We did it after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War '91. Each time we reduce our forces so drastically that we couldn't (or had a very hard time) fielding troops. It seems we never learn from history.”

That is a concern yes after all there is only so much that a qualitative edge can do before numbers show (the battle of Little Big Horn comes to mind as a common example) and I would be interested in seeing how the American military approaches this challenge. I do know that there are some experts that believe that the British army will be meeting it with increased training, so that in effect all soldiers will be given a level of training that is (today) only give to elite units such as the SAS whilst obviously cutting down on the armies size

@ Sanders:

"Only one soldier is implicated". You act as if there is still a chance that this man is innocent. He admitted to killing them right after he did it. Did you miss this one important piece of info?

BlueStar

Please inform us as to how you reach that conclusion about Sanders implying the man is innocent?

Unless you have a crystal ball or Wikileak insider BlueStar, we don't know all the facts. Which is why we have trials. We all have a right to a trial, and the presumption of innocence, or did you miss THAT important piece of info?

he must have missed it......i say give the man a fair trial , we owe him that much, and besides the story is starting to change to where it does not look so one sided as first reported. there is more to this than what we already know.

Lance the story is about Afghanistan...........wrong country.

Democrats voted the war in just like the republicans did. Stop drinking the party kool aide and learn to think for yourself.

Lies : Lies: lies....dam fools all of you:

Lance Johnson made a good point above, he mentioned Iraq when the massacre we are talking about was in Afghanistan. American invaded Iraq in retaliation for 9/11, even though Iraq had no connection with 9/11. The massacre in Afghanistan had nothing to do with Iraq. America constantly attacks those who had nothing to do with the offense they are accused of. That is the essence of American policy, attack anyone, especially the innocent, and lie about everything all the time. That is American policy in a nutshell.

Wondered that myself,Lance Johnson,Saudi's on the planes the took out the WTC and hit the Pentagon plus the one that crashed in PA. The only planes that could legally fly the next few days were to take Saudi folks home. So we attack Iraq,WTF???

I thought I was the only American after the announcement we were going into Iraq after 9/11 to say "WTF??" Bush Jr. was looking for a reason the entire time to go back to finish what his father didn't. This gave him the 'in'. It had NOTHING to do with 9/11! However, then we get into this mess.... and now that the 'reason' for that mess is dead, we STILL have to stay there?? Enough is enough already. Yes, our government lies and covers up just like any other big nation. I believe it's probably true that this was retaliation... and maybe there was more than one guy but the rest made it back onto base and he decided to be the fall guy...

A minority of Afghans do have the balls to fight for their freedom, and they are fighting the occupiers and oppressors. The majority is peaceful and will tolerate occupation, oppression, humiliation, and crimes like this one against their people.

Well, isn't it up to guys like YOU Mr. SF to teach these men how to fight? Thats a helluva attitude for SF soldier.

It worked in Iraq!

Ed McT, Would it be cool with you if your family were on the receiving end of a misguided revenge attack? If so, then you are not a hypocrite.

You bloviating fool, war is a crime on humanity. Both sides kill humans in war.

Redherring 90: Your point?

And... RedHerring... you served how many tours over there to gain all this fascinating information??? If this country is so bad... LEAVE!!!

Red Heering....before you start on your 'America is always at fault' crap, pls review the following intel which both President Clinton and President Bush had to consider, especially after 911. Then tell us what would you have done....

Iraq and a History of Terrorism

On December 3, 1976, the New York Times reported that radical Palestinians have gathered in Iraq to mount a terrorist campaign against "moderate" arab governments. The group referred to in the article was known as Black June and they were led by the terrorist Abu Nidal. On August 5, 1978, the New York Times reported that this Palestinian group was linked to Iraq's intelligence service. Abu Nidal was a ruthless terrorist who planned the 1973 assault on an American passenger plane in Rome that resulted in 34 deaths and the 1974 bombing of TWA 841 which resulted in 88 deaths.

On April 24, 1977, the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) was reorgainized under the leadership of the terrorist Abu Abbas. According to an October 13, 1985 article in the New York Times, the group was organized with money and help from the Iraqi government.

In December 1977, Carlos the Jackal (a.k.a. Ilich Ramirez Sanchez) a "terrorist for hire" met with Saddam Hussein. Carlos was openly supported by the Iraqi government.

On July 15, 1978, the LA Times reported that the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) had formally asked the government of Iraq to hand over the terrorist Abu Nidal "so he would get what he deserves." The article reported Iraq had given support to Abu Nidal and even provided him with his own radio station which he called "the voice of the Palestinian revolution." Among other things, the radio station had launched virulent attacks on two Palestinian leaders shortly before they were assassinated earlier that year.

In 1979, Congress passed legislation (Export Administration Act of 1979) which required the executive branch to create and maintain a list of countries deemed to have repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism. In December 1979, the Carter Administration declared four countries as state sponsors of terrorism including: Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Southern Yemen.

On August 30, 1980, the New York Times reported in an article titled "U.S. Forbids Sale of Jetliners to Iraq" that the Carter Administration decided to block the sale of five Boeing jets due to Iraq's involvement in recent terrorist activities. The article reported that, within the previous few months, Iraqi diplomats were involved in attempted bomb attacks in Vienna and West Berlin.

On November 9, 1982, the Los Angeles Times reported in an article titled "Top Arab Terrorist Back in Baghdad" that Abu Nidal had recently moved back to Iraq after being expelled from the country four years earlier. His presence in Iraq was confirmed by President Saddam Hussein.

Abu Abbas was the mastermind of the October 1985 Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking. Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year-old Manhattan retiree, was rolled by Abbas's men, wheelchair and all, into the Mediterranean. After holding some 400 passengers hostage for 44 hours, the hijackers surrendered to Egyptian authorities in exchange for safe passage to Tunisia aboard an Egypt Air jet. The airliner, however, was forced by U.S. fighter planes to land at a NATO base in Sicily. Italian officials took the hijackers into custody but Abu Abbas possessed a get-out-of-jail card: an Iraqi diplomatic passport. Seeing that this terrorist traveled as a credentialed Iraqi diplomat, the Italian authorities let Abbas flee to Yugoslavia.

On January 21, 1986 the Associated Press reported the May 15 Organization is an Iraqi-based terrorist group headed by a Palestinian who goes by the name of Abu Ibrahim. The article quoted an Israeli military officer who said the group "specializes in blowing up planes in the air. They operate with the active support of Iraqi intelligence." The May 15 Organization was responsible for five attacks on American and Israeli airliners between 1982 and 1983 including the August 11, 1982 bombing of Pan Am flight 830 over Honolulu which killed one teenager and injured 15 other passengers. Members of the group are also suspected in the April 2, 1986 bombing of TWA flight 840 which killed four Americans near Athens.

On May 13, 1986, the New York Times reported that the French Interior Ministry had received confessions for three terrorist bombings including the Marks & Spencer department stores in Paris and London. According to reports, the terrorist in custody had received his orders from a "contact in Baghdad." That contact was Abu Ibrahim, the leader of a radical Palestinian organization called the "Arab Organization of May 15." This group, which received Iraqi government support, was known for its use of sophisticated explosive devices in the form of plastic explosives and suitcase bombs.

On March 20, 1990, four months prior to the invasion of Kuwait, the Chicago Tribune asked, "Why is Bush gentle with the Butcher of Baghdad?" The newspaper was upset a British journalist had been recently hanged in Iraq as a spy. Saddam had also declared a school holiday to swell the crowds ordered to demonstrate in front of the British embassy. The Iraqi propaganda minister declared, "Mrs. Thatcher wanted him alive, we gave her the body."

On March 31, 1990, months prior to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, The Post-Standard (Syracuse, NY) reported that five people were indicted for illegally exporting nuclear warhead triggering devices to Iraq. The article reported, "Hussein is one of the world's foremost sponsors of terrorism. Numbered among his clients are a varied assortment of highjackers, bombers and kidnappers around the world."

On January 16, 1991 President George H.W. Bush announced that twenty eight countries with forces in the Gulf began military operations to remove Saddam Hussein's army from Kuwait. "Some may ask: Why act now? Why not wait? The answer is clear: The world could wait no longer. Sanctions, though having some effect, showed no signs of accomplishing their objective. Sanctions were tried for well over 5 months, and we and our allies concluded that sanctions alone would not force Saddam from Kuwait. While the world waited, Saddam Hussein systematically raped, pillaged, and plundered a tiny nation, no threat to his own. He subjected the people of Kuwait to unspeakable atrocities -- and among those maimed and murdered, innocent children."

During the first Gulf War, on February 4, 1991, the Washington Times wrote an article titled, "Terrorist Camps Deserted in Iraq." The article reported that several terrorist camps inside Iraq were abandoned shortly after the start of the allied bombing campaign. One camp in the western desert was operated by the terrorist Abu Nidal for weapons and explosives training. A terrorist camp near Bagdad was operated by Abu Ibrahim, leader of the Arab Organization May 15. And another terrorist camp near Bagdad was occupied by terrorists of unknown affiliation. Later, after the war, the Washington Times wrote another article dated November 24, 1992 reporting that terrorists were once again training at a camp near Bagdad in violation of the cease-fire terms that ended the Gulf War.

On February 4, 1992, The Canadian Press reported, "A Palestinian ex-businessman said Tuesday he was sent on a bombing mission to Europe in 1982 by an Iraqi-based guerrilla group whose leader had close connections with the Baghdad government. Adnan Awad told a U.S. Senate hearing he took a sophisticated briefcase bomb to Switzerland where he was to blow up either an Israeli or an American installation but could not bring himself to do it." Awad said the leader of the group, Abu Ibrahim, had an "open and clear" relationship with the Iraqi government and enjoyed special privileges "like any big officer in Iraq."

On June 6, 1992, the Associated Press reported that, "U.S. officials knew Palestinian terrorists were finding a safe haven in Baghdad, but for eight years the Reagan and Bush administrations rejected congressional attempts to punish Iraq, newly declassified documents show." A July 1, 1986 memo to then-Secretary of State George Shultz said, "The Iraqis initially endeavored to preserve their terrorist assets, resorting to subterfuge to divert attention from their continued support for terrorist groups." The memo was declassified by the State Department at the request of Rep. Sam Gejdenson, D-Conn.

During the 1992 presidential campaign, Al Gore criticized the first Bush administration for its "blatant disregard" of Iraq's ties to terrorism. On September 29, 1992 Al Gore said, "The Reagan-Bush administration was also prepared to overlook the fact that the terrorists who masterminded the attack on the Achille Lauro and the savage murder of American Leon Klinghoffer, fled with Iraqi assistance. Nor did it seem to matter that the team of terrorists who set out to blow up the Rome airport came directly from Baghdad with suitcase bombs." Al Gore went on to say, "There might have been a moment's pause for reflection when Iraqi aircraft intentionally attacked the USS Stark in May of 1987 killing 37 sailors, but the administration smoothed it over very fast."

Former President George H.W. Bush visited Kuwait between April 14 and April 16, 1993, to commemorate the allied victory in the Persian Gulf War. In late-April 1993, the United States learned that terrorists had attempted to assassinate Bush during his visit to Kuwait and evidence indicated that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) was behind the assassination attempt. The Kuwaiti authorities arrested 17 persons suspected in the plot to kill Bush using explosives hidden in a Toyota Landcruiser. On June 26, 1993, the United States launched a cruise missile attack against a building housing the Iraqi Intelligence Service in Baghdad in retaliation for the assassination attempt on former President Bush.

On June 27, 1994 ABC News reported that Abdul Rahman Yasin (indicted for his role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing) was known to be living in Iraq. A reporter working for ABC News and Newsweek spotted Abdul Yasin at his father's house in Baghdad. Newsweek reported that, according to neighbors, Yasin was "working for the Iraqi government." At the time, the U.S. government was offering a $2 million reward for information leading to his capture. Yasin was never brought to justice and still remains at large today. The reward for his capture has since increased to $5 million.

On October 12, 1994, the Los Angeles Times reported that the Pentagon had placed 155,000 additional ground troops on alert in response to the recent build-up of Iraqi forces near the Kuwait border. These soldiers were in addition to the 36,000 already being sent to the Persian Gulf. "For the next several hours, we're going to watch and see what Iraq is going to do," one official said. "Meanwhile, we are getting ourselves prepared in case the worst comes to pass."

Throughout the 1990's the U.S. Department of State listed Iraq as a country known to sponsor international terrorism. The Department of State's 1994 Patterns of Global Terrorism report stated, "Since 1991, in violation of UN Security Council resolutions, the Government of Iraq has obstructed the international community's provision of humanitarian assistance. We believe that Iraq is responsible for more than 100 attacks on relief personnel and aid convoys over the past four years. Moreover, the Government of Iraq has offered monetary 'bounties' to anyone who assassinates UN and other international relief workers."

On January 17, 1995 the Boston Globe reported possible Iraqi involvement in the World Trade Center bombing. "I believe the totality of the evidence points toward Iraqi involvement," said James Fox, former special agent in charge of the FBI's New York office and the man credited with solving the bombing case. "I should say, I arrived at that conclusion after not believing it at first," he added. Fox explained that an eight-page State Department analysis that was classified but made available to him suggested that Iraqi sponsorship of the World Trade Center bombing was the "most likely scenario."

The U.S. Department of State's 1995 Patterns of Global Terrorism report stated, "Iraq continues to provide haven and training facilities for several terrorist clients. Abu Abbas' Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) maintains its headquarters in Baghdad. The Abu Nidal organization (ANO) continues to have an office in Baghdad. The Arab Liberation Front (ALF), headquartered in Baghdad, continues to receive funding from Saddam's regime. Iraq also continues to host the former head of the now-defunct 15 May organization, Abu Ibrahim, who masterminded several bombings of US aircraft."

On September 4, 1996, Newsday reported the United States had launched a cruise missile strike the prior day against Saddam Hussein to make him "pay a price" for unleashing his army against the northern Kurds. Over a two day period the United States launched a total of 44 cruise missiles into Iraq. President Clinton said, "Our objectives are limited but clear: To make Saddam pay a price for the latest act of brutality, reducing his ability to threaten his neighbors and America's interests."

On September 12, 1996, National Public Radio interviewed a former CIA chief of counter-terrorism who said Iraq might have been a state sponsor behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. NPR pointed out that Ramzi Ahmed Yousef came to the United States with an Iraqi passport and also reported that indicted co-conspirator Abdul Rahman Yasin was currently living in Baghdad.

On March 2, 1998, U.S. News & World Report wrote that Saddam Hussein had dispatched some 30 terrorist teams around the world to strike U.S. interests prior to the first Gulf War. Disaster was averted, the article reported, by a combination of U.S. intelligence and Iraqi incompetence. Iraq had shipped automatic weapons and explosives to embassies overseas but most of the Iraqi agents were amateurish and easily detected. Two men who did get through accidentally blew themselves up in the Philippines before they could bomb a U.S. cultural center in Manila.

On January 27, 1999 an article in the New York Times titled "A Much-Shunned Terrorist Is Said to Find Haven in Iraq" stated that "Abu Nidal, one of the world's most infamous terrorists, moved to Baghdad late last year and obtained the protection of President Saddam Hussein, according to intelligence reports received by United States and Middle Eastern government officials." The article quoted a counterterrorism expert who said that, regarding Abu Nidal, "Osama bin Laden is a student by comparison."

On January 12, 2001 The Miami Herald reported that the Navy changed the status of Lt. Commander Michael Scott Speicher from killed in action to missing. Speicher was listed as the first casualty of the Gulf War when his F/A-18 Hornet was shot down on January 17, 1991. This change in status also makes him the last to be still unaccounted for. President Clinton said information about the case "makes us believe that at least he survived his crash... and that he might be alive." Clinton said U.S. officials have begun trying to determine whether Speicher is alive, and "if he is, where he is and how we can get him out."

After the Gulf War in 1991, no-fly zones were established in northern and southern Iraq to protect the Iraqi Kurds and Shiites from Saddam's forces. The U.S. military enforced these no-fly zones up until the second Iraq war in March 2003. Iraq considered this an affront to its sovereignty and in December 1998 began shooting at American aircraft patrolling these zones. On March 28, 2001, General Tommy Franks reported to the House Armed Services Committee that during the prior year alone, coalition forces had flown nearly 10,000 sorties inside Iraqi airspace and those aircraft were engaged by surface-to-air missiles or anti-aircraft fire more than 500 times. Franks reported that during the prior year, naval forces had intercepted 610 ships while enforcing U.N. sanctions designed to limit Saddam Hussein's ability to smuggle oil out of Iraq. On any given day, U.S. Central Command operated in the region with some 30 naval vessels, 175-200 military aircraft, and between 18,000 and 25,000 Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines.

On October 14, 2001, a former Iraqi army captain named Sabah Khodada granted an interview to the PBS television program "Frontline" in which he talked about a terrorist training camp in Iraq called Salman Pak. During this interview Khodada stated, "This camp is specialized in exporting terrorism to the whole world."

Saddam Hussein paid $25,000 bonuses to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. "President Saddam Hussein has recently told the head of the Palestinian political office, Faroq al-Kaddoumi, his decision to raise the sum granted to each family of the martyrs of the Palestinian uprising to $25,000 instead of $10,000," Iraq's deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz declared on March 11, 2002. Mahmoud Besharat, who dispensed these funds across the West Bank, gratefully said: "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."

Before the rise of Usama bin Laden, Abu Nidal was widely regarded as the world's most ruthless terrorist. The Associated Press reported on August 22, 2002 that Nidal entered Iraq during the late 1990's "with the full knowledge and preparations of the Iraqi authorities." He lived there until August, 2002 when he died of between one and four gunshot wounds. It is believed by many that Abu Nidal was killed on the orders of Saddam Hussein although the Iraqi government claimed that Nidal had committed suicide.

On February 13, 2003, the Philippine government expelled Iraqi diplomat Hisham al Hussein, the second secretary at Iraq's Manila embassy. Cell phone records indicated that the Iraqi diplomat had spoken with Abu Madja and Hamsiraji Sali, leaders of Abu Sayyaf, just before and just after this Al-Qaeda allied Islamic militant group conducted an attack in Zamboanga City. Abu Sayyaf's nail filled bomb exploded on October 2, 2002, injuring 23 individuals and killing two Filipinos plus killing U.S. Special Forces Sergeant First Class Mark Wayne Jackson, age 40.

After the fall of Saddam's government, coalition forces found and destroyed a terrorist training camp located near Baghdad called Salman Pak. This terrorist training camp featured an airplane fuselage where Iraqi defectors had earlier reported foreign terrorists were being trained in hijacking aircraft.

On April 7, 2003, Agence France Presse reported that US Marines discovered a terrorist training camp operated by the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF). The complex featured bomb-making facilities and pictures of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and PLF faction leader Abu Abbas. Other pictures included the terrorist leader Abu Abbas posing with a Republican Guard brigadier general inside the camp.

On April 14, 2003, Abu Abbas was captured by U.S. Special Forces during a raid near Baghdad. Abbas had lived in Baghdad since 1994, where he was living under protection of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Khala Khadr al-Salahat, accused of designing the bomb that destroyed Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in December 1988 (259 killed on board, 11 dead on the ground), also lived in Iraq. He surrendered to U.S. Marines in Baghdad on April 18, 2003. http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=208308" target="_blank">

On September 18, 2003, USA Today ran an article with the headline "U.S. says Iraq sheltered suspect in '93 WTC attack." The article reported that U.S. authorities have evidence Saddam Hussein's regime gave money and housing to Abdul Rahman Yasin, a suspect in the World Trade Center bombing in 1993. Military, intelligence and law enforcement officials reported finding a large cache of Arabic-language documents in Tikrit, Saddam's political stronghold. Some analysts have concluded that the documents show Saddam's government provided monthly payments and a home for Yasin.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on June 18, 2004, "I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received ... information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations."

In March 2006, a captured Iraqi document was revealed outlining a May 1999 plan for training terrorists. Under the code name "Blessed July" the top ten graduates of a terrorist training camp were to be sent to London for European operations. Other graduates of this terrorist training camp were to be sent to Iran or the Kurdish areas in northern Iraq. The Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) was to provide logistical support for their missions and selection of targets.

On November 29, 2009 a Czech TV station revealed that Iraqi intelligence agents working for Saddam Hussein had plotted an attack on the Prague headquarters of Radio Free Europe. TV Nova aired an exclusive report with information that in 1999 Saddam Hussein ordered a terrorist attack on the US-financed radio station from where programs criticizing his regime were broadcast around the world. In 2003, Czech intelligence officers discovered the plot and confiscated the weapons that Iraqi agents had stockpiled including automatic weapons and a rocket propelled grenade.

Connections between Iraq and Al-Qaeda

On August 20, 1998, President Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against a chemical weapons factory in Sudan. The cruise missle strike was in retaliation for the August 7, 1998 truck bomb attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya which killed more than 200 people and wounded more than 5,000 others. The chemical weapons factory in Sudan was funded, in part, by Osama bin Laden who the U.S. believed responsible for the embassy bombings. Richard Clarke, a national security advisor to President Clinton, told the Washington Post in a January 23, 1999 article that the U.S. government was "sure" that Iraqi nerve gas experts had produced a powdered substance at that plant for use in making VX nerve gas.

On August 25, 1998 the Fort Worth Star-telegram reported a link between Iraq and the Sudanese chemical weapons factory destroyed by the United States in a cruise missile attack. The chemical weapons factory was hit because of links to Osama bin Laden who the U.S. believed responsible for the recent embassy bombings. A senior intelligence official said one of the leaders of Iraq's chemical weapons program, Emad al-Ani, had close ties with senior Sudanese officials at the factory. The intelligence official also said a number of Iraqi scientists working with al-Ani attended the grand opening of the factory two years earlier. Emad Husayn Abdullah al-Ani surrendered to U.S. military forces on April 18, 2003.

On November 5, 1998 a Federal grand jury in Manhattan returned a 238-count indictment charging Osama bin Laden in the bombings of two United States Embassies in Africa and with conspiring to commit other acts of terrorism against Americans abroad. The grand jury indictment also charged that Al-Qaeda had reached an arrangement with President Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq whereby the group said that it would not work against Iraq, and that the two parties agreed to cooperate in the development of weapons.

On January 11, 1999, Newsweek magazine ran the headline "Saddam + Bin Laden?" The subheadline declared, "It would be a marriage made in hell. And America's two enemies are courting." The article points out that Saddam has a long history ofsupporting terrorism. The article also mentions that, in the prior week, several surface-to-air missiles were fired at U.S. and British planes patrolling the no-fly zones and that Saddam is now fighting for his life now that the United States has made his removal from office a national objective.

On January 14, 1999, ABC News reported, "Saddam Hussein has a long history of harboring terrorists. Carlos the Jackal, Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, the most notorious terrorists of their era, all found shelter and support at one time in Baghdad. Intelligence sources say bin Laden's long relationship with the Iraqis began as he helped Sudan's fundamentalist government in their efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction."

On February 13, 1999, CNN reported, "Osama bin Laden, the Saudi millionaire accused by the United States of plotting bomb attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa, has left Afghanistan, Afghan sources said Saturday. Bin Laden's whereabouts were not known....." The article reports, "Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden....."

On February 14, 1999, an article in the Aberdeen American News claimed U.S. intelligence officials were worried about an alliance between Osama bin Laden and Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. The article said bin Laden had met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official near Qandahar, Afghanistan in late December 1998 and that "there has been increasing evidence that bin Laden and Iraq may have begun cooperating in planning attacks against American and British targets around the world." Vincent Cannistraro, former head of counterterrorism at the Central Intelligence Agency said, "It's clear the Iraqis would like to have bin Laden in Iraq." The article said that in addition to Abu Nidal, another Palestinian terrorist by the name of Abu Ibrahim was also believed to be in Iraq.

On February 18, 1999, National Public Radio (NPR) reported, "There have also been reports in recent months that bin Laden might have been considering moving his operations to Iraq. Intelligence agencies in several nations are looking into that. According to Vincent Cannistraro, a former chief of CIA counterterrorism operations, a senior Iraqi intelligence official, Farouk Hijazi, sought out bin Laden in December and invited him to come to Iraq." NPR reported that Iraq's contacts with bin Laden go back some years, to at least 1994, when Farouk Hijazi met with bin Laden when he lived in Sudan.

On February 28, 1999, an article was written in The Kansas City Star which said, "He [bin Laden] has a private fortune ranging from $250 million to $500 million and is said to be cultivating a new alliance with Iraq's Saddam Hussein, who has biological and chemical weapons bin Laden would not hesitate to use. An alliance between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein could be deadly. Both men are united in their hatred for the United States....."

On December 28, 1999, an article appeared in The Herald (Glasgow, Scotland) titled, "Iraq tempts bin Laden to attack West." The article starts, "The world's most wanted man, Osama bin Laden, has been offered sanctuary in Iraq....." The article quotes a U.S. counter-terrorism source who said, "Now we are also facing the prospect of an unholy alliance between bin Laden and Saddam. The implications are terrifying."

On April 8, 2001, an informant for Czech counter-intelligence observed an Iraqi intelligence official named al-Ani meeting with an Arab man in his 20s at a restaurant outside Prague. Following the 9/11 attacks, the Czech informant who observed the meeting saw Mohammed Atta’s picture in the papers and identified Mohammed Atta as the man who met with the Iraqi intelligence official.

On July 21, 2001 [less than two months prior to 911] the Iraqi state-controlled newspaper "Al-Nasiriya" predicted that bin Laden would attack the U.S. "with the seriousness of the Bedouin of the desert about the way he will try to bomb the Pentagon after he destroys the White House." The same state-approved column also insisted that bin Laden "will strike America on the arm that is already hurting," and that the U.S. "will curse the memory of Frank Sinatra every time he hears his songs" - an apparent reference to the Sinatra classic, "New York, New York."

After the 9/11 attacks, Saddam became the only world leader to offer praise for bin Laden, even as other terrorist leaders, like Yassir Arafat, went out of their way to make a show of sympathy to the U.S. by donating blood to 9/11 victims on camera. Saddam later pays tribute to 9/11 by having a mural painted depicting the World Trade Center attack at an Iraqi military base in Nasariyah.

On December 3, 2001 USA Today reported that the CIA had convincing evidence from the mid-1990s Saddam Hussein's regime was funneling money through Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network to the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) in Algeria and other terrorist organizations. Stanley Bedlington, a senior analyst in the CIA's counterterrorism center until his retirement in 1994, said "We were convinced that money from Iraq was going to bin Laden, who was then sending it to places that Iraq wanted it to go."

On March 15, 2002 the Christian Science Monitor reported that a Taliban-style group known as Ansar al-Islam was threatening stability in the Kurdish northern region of Iraq. Prior to the start of the Iraq War in 2003, Colin Powell addressed the United Nations and pointed out that both Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida had links with the Ansar al-Islam terrorist group. Saddam had provided arms and funding for this terrorist group waging a jihadist war against the Kurds. One month prior to the formation of Ansar al-Islam, leaders from several Kurdish Islamist factions had visited the al-Qaida leadership in Afghanistan. Ansar al-Islam announced their formation on September 1, 2001 just days prior to the September 11 attacks in the United States.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a director of an al Qaeda training base in Afghanistan, fled to Iraq after being injured as the Taliban fell (prior to the U.S./Iraq war). He received medical care and convalesced for two months in Baghdad. He then opened a terrorist training camp in northern Iraq and arranged the October 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Amman, Jordan.

CIA director George Tenet (appointed by President Bill Clinton July 11, 1997) wrote in a letter to Senator Bob Graham dated October 7, 2002. "We have solid reporting of senior level contact between Iraq and al Qaeda going back a decade. Credible information exists that Iraq and al Qaeda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal nonaggression. . . . We have credible reporting that al Qaeda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire WMD capabilities."

On October 16, 2002, the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 was signed into law. Theauthorization (Public law 107-243) had passed the House by a vote of 296-133, and the Senate by a vote of 77-23. This resolution stated, "Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;" and "Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens."

Babil, an official newspaper of Saddam Hussein's government, run by his oldest son Uday, published information that appeared to confirm U.S. allegations of the links between the Iraqi regime and al Qaeda. In its November 16, 2002 edition, Babil identified one Abd-al-Karim Muhammad Aswad as an "intelligence officer," describing him as the "official in charge of regime's contacts with Osama bin Laden's group and currently the regime's representative in Pakistan."

In December 2002 the House and Senate intelligence committees issued a report on the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. CIA director George Tenet testified (page 137) that, “Atta may also have traveled outside of the U.S. in early April 2001 to meet an Iraqi intelligence officer, although we are still working to corroborate this.” This report also noted (page 211) that, "In February 1999, the Intelligence Community obtained information that Iraq had formed a suicide pilot unit that it planned to use against British and U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf. The CIA commented that this was highly unlikely and probably disinformation."

On April 25, 2003 CNN reported that Farouk Hijazi had been captured by U.S. forces. Farouk Hijazi was a former intelligence official who may have plotted the attempted assassination of George H.W. Bush in 1993. He was also a contact between Saddam Hussein's regime and Osama bin Laden. Farouk met with bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1998 and is also believed to have met with bin Laden in Sudan in the early 1990's.

While sifting through the Iraqi Intelligence Service's [Mukhabarat] bombed ruins on April 26, 2003 the Toronto Star's Mitch Potter, the London Daily Telegraph's Inigo Gilmore and their translator discovered a memo in the intelligence service's accounting department. Dated February 19, 1998 and marked "Top Secret and Urgent," it said the agency would pay "all the travel and hotel expenses inside Iraq to gain the knowledge of the message from bin Laden and to convey to his envoy an oral message from us to bin Laden, the Saudi opposition leader, about the future of our relationship with him, and to achieve a direct meeting with him."

On May 7, 2003, a federal judge in New York awarded damages against the government of Iraq after ruling that the families of two victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, suicide hijackings had shown that Iraq had provided material support to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida. Judge Harold Baer ruled that the two families were entitled to $104 million compensation from Iraq, bin Laden, al-Qaida, the Taliban movement and their government of Afghanistan. "Plaintiffs have shown, albeit barely, 'by evidence satisfactory to the court' that Iraq provided material support to bin Laden and al-Qaida."

The 9/11 Commission Report (pages 228 - 229) provides details of what is known about Mohamed Atta's alleged April 9, 2001 11:00 A.M. meeting with an Iraqi Intelligence agent in Prague. According to the FBI, Mohamed Atta was in Virginia Beach on April 4 and in Florida on April 11. Atta's cell phone records indicate calls were made from Florida during this period but they cannot confirm whether he placed those calls. The report mentions, however, that Czech intelligence has stated publicly they believe there was a 70 percent probability that the meeting took place. The Czech Interior Minister made several statements to the press about his belief that the meeting had occurred. Atta is known to have been in Prague on at least two occasions: once in December 1994 and again in June 2000.

On September 13, 2006, a deputy prime minister of Iraq by the name of Barham Salih gave a speech in which he said, "The alliance between the Baathists and jihadists which sustains Al Qaeda in Iraq is not new, contrary to what you may have been told." He went on to say, "I know this at first hand. Some of my friends were murdered by jihadists, by Al Qaeda-affiliated operatives who had been sheltered and assisted by Saddam's regime."

On March 20, 2008 the Pentagon declassified results of their investigation into captured Iraqi documents. The report entitled "Iraqi Perspectives Project -- Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi Documents" stated, "While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously, operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist–operatives monitored closely. Because Saddam’s security organizations and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some ways, a 'de facto' link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust."

In June 2008 the Senate released their report "Whether Public Statements Regarding Iraq By U.S. Government Officials Were Substantiated By Intelligence Information." Among the conclusions (page 71), it reported that public statements by government officials that Iraq (prior to the war) provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other al-Qaida related terrorist members was substantiated by intelligence assessments.

On June 18, 2008 the Iraqi newspaper Kurdistani Nwe published a 2002 letter from the Iraqi presidency that it said proved there was cooperation between Saddam Hussein's regime and Al-Qaeda. The letter, which appeared on the paper's front page, was written by Iraqi intelligence and discussed an intention to meet with Ayman Al-Zawahiri in order to examine a plan drawn up by the Iraqi presidency to carry out a "revenge operation" in Saudi Arabia.

Why do you think Afghanistan SHOULD civilize the way WE want? How would you like for them to come over here and civilize us the way THEY want? You see, we are not the worlds police and for being a so called christian nation we sure do bully our way around simple because we have the power. I don't understand how some of you think we'd welcome another country invading ours to make us better because that is what we think they should do so certainly we'd all sit back and let them tell us how to live, right?

Mouse. I really wish more people would be openminded and start thinking about "what if it were you?"

I gotta say You are absolutely correct. What the hell makes us think we are better than the world and have to assimulate the rest of the world into our collective. Be just like the US!! F**K that!

@Mouse

That is what Osama bin Laden thought about America. That is what prompted 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. I can almost see what you are saying about the "Westernization" of the Middle East. But these countries are embroiled in some really deep crap right now... I suppose we need to let countries like Uganda just solve their own problems. Right? But then again, we're Americans and we need to get involved in every country's business. I do think we should leave Afghanistan, and I do think that what this man did was wrong. But you saying that the people of Afghanistan are innocent is wrong. Atrocities are being commited both sides of the war. Like what someone said above earlier, this is a dirty war. Both sides are guilty of this. I believe we should just leave Afghanistan and focus on our own internal problems.

Yes and when we don't step in and interfere, we get blamed for what happens then. We're the most powerful so when we interfere, we're bullies. When we do not intervene, we get skewered as not doing enough. No matter what, the US will never do anything right in the world's eyes.

Nahzul that's a little harsh as a full 28% of the population is literate.............but the other 72% will still kill you for burning their book that they cannot read............I guess it has lots of pictures.

and even when you are literate.....just ask the christian's they believe anything also.

Probably a pop-up book :)

I agree with you certainly.....we make our men and women into killing machines and then get upset because they kill. This is why we should never, ever enter into wars lightly. But you are correct. And, had he made it back without killing innocents he stilled be f'd up because we here in the USA turn our backs on our troops all the time.

Amen - Anna