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Handout via modelmayhem.com
The organizers for Miss Universe Canada will not allow a transgender contestant to participate in the May pageant, saying that although she may feel like a woman, rules say she must be born a female, the Toronto Star reported.
Denis Davila, the national director of the Miss Universe Canada franchise, told the Vancouver Sun that the contestant, Jenna Talackova, a native of Vancouver, British Columbia, wrote on her registration that she was born female. He suspected that she was born male and asked her about it earlier this month. She was dismissed that day.
Davila said that the Miss Universe franchise requires that contestants be “naturally born female,” according to the Sun.
“She feels like a real girl and she is a real girl. She didn’t expect people to question it,” Davila told the Sun. “She was hoping we could put her back in the competition, but the rules are very clear and there’s no way we can go back on it.”
He added: “She was excited about the competition. Just because she can’t compete doesn’t mean we stopped loving her.”
Those rules are not mentioned on the Miss Universe website, which states that contestants must be unmarried and 18 years or older.
Mara Keisling, who heads the National Center for Transgender Equality based in Washington, D.C., told the Toronto Star that she questioned the decision.
"From what I've read, it doesn't sound like they had any rules," Keisling said. "It seems like they made them up on the fly to disqualify her. It makes you wonder what they're afraid of."
A change.org petition initiated for Talackova quoted her Twitter feed, which has since been hidden.
Talackova wrote, according to the petition, that she was “disqualified for being born.”
On March 18, before learning she had been disqualified, she tweeted: “Still waiting to know if I’m able to compete ... praying and fingers crossed.”
When she was disqualified two days later, Talackova wrote, “I’m not giving up. I’m not going to just let them disqualify me over discrimination.”
In 2010, when she was 19, Talackova competed in Miss International Queen, a competition for transgender and transsexual people. In an interview posted on YouTube, she said she knew she was a girl at age 4.
Speaking with a girlish lilt, the tall blonde contestant said that she started hormone therapy at age 14 and underwent a sex change surgery at 19.
A brief statement released Friday on the front page of the website for Beauties of Canada, the company that oversees the Miss Universe Canada pageant, stated that Talackova was removed from the competition “because she did not meet the requirements to compete despite having stated otherwise on her entry form.”
Canada is one of the four countries along with France, Germany and the United States that have competed in every Miss Universe pageant since it was created in 1952. The Miss Universe Canada pageant will be held on May 19 in Toronto.
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Jenna Tacklova, interviewed at the finals of the 2010 Miss International Queen Competition, said she started hormone treatment at 14. Her interview begins at the 7:44 minute mark.
Leave a Comment:
There's a reason why they don't call it Miss-ter Universe.
Reminds me of the guy that always tries to sue "Hooters" for not hiring him.
His Adam's Apple is a dead give away in the video. As are his man hands and huge feet in the earlier picture. He comes a lot closer to pulling it off than most TG. Never understood why so many men want to be ugly women which most TG are.
I see a big civil rights battle coming right up!
Born a man, always a man. You can have all the surgery you want, but DNA does not lie. If he want to go around looking and acting like a woman, fine. But he is still a guy. If I got a perm and died my hair, would I be able to claim to be African American? If I had surgery on my eyes and died my hair black, could I claim to be Asian? Don't think so.
If she started hormones at 14, she would have no "man's hand' or adams apple because she basically did her puberty as a woman. Shhhsh. You have to have testosterone to develop as a man, so how do you think that would happen without it?
Is that a banana in your panties..or you just happy to see me?
You can change the wrapping all you want, but it's still a male.
after the "adda-crack-tome" there's no banana. She can go compete in Thailand - they have a "Tiffany's pageant" just for transvestites and transsexuals. SOME of them fit the description "if it looks to good to be true, it probably IS"
Let's go one better and make a rule that anything 'fake' about a woman also disqualifies them for the running. No boob jobs, no nose jobs, let's just see natural beauty.
Since there are no rules about that yet though, she should be able to run. Born male or not you have to be true to who you are and if he felt he was meant to be a woman, then went through all that for it, more power to her.
what might be ironic is that even though she use to be a he, i'm willing to bet she has been under the knife less than the rest of the "ladies"
If you are born a guy then you are a guy. No ifs ands or butts. I don't see how there could possibly be a problem with that.
Jim in Auburn and Jack ...your understanding of mammalian biology is lacking. Genes do not control male or female brain morphology, hormones do. You can have all the Y chromosomes in the universe, but if you do not have receptors for testosterone on the cells or your blood was drenched in estrogen during gestation, you will have female brain morphology.
Sexual orientation is biological. Bigotry is a life-style choice.
@hs321 Biological???? Really because as of yet there's no medical \ scientific evidence to support that. So come back with some facts and I'll not dimiss you as uninformed................
Go do your own research Roscoe2u. It's been proven in numerous mammalian species including primates. It has not been scientifically tested in humans because that would clearly be unethical.
However, you can start with this: The prevailing view is that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice. That is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual. There is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that early childhood experiences, parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. However, studies do find that as aspects of sexuality expression have an experiential basis, parental attitudes towards a particular sexual orientation may affect how their children experiment with behaviours related to a certain orientation. [7][8][35][57][58]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation
I could post a books worth of material backing up the position that mammalian sexual orientation is biological, but many would refuse to believe it anyway.
Roscoe~
For your reading pleasure
While there are interesting studies that link biology and sexual orientation (please read in particular: Pheromone studies and Studies of brain structure) there is just as much evidence to suggest this to be the case as there isn't. There actually is medical and scientific evidence although currently the link is still a theory.
I have no doubt that sexual orientation may be biological and I know for a fact that bigotry is a life-style choice.
They should just get rid of all so-called "beauty" contests. What a waste of time.
I think this falls under the "No @!$%#, Sherlock" category.
So basically you are saying that a person is born a certain way. That makes homosexuality a birth defect.
Sounds logical.
jrae, the best post on the entire thread. It's why young woman will under go unneeded surgeries for fake everything to seek a beauty that is truly only skin deep and only important to people who don't matter. We've forgotten what a real woman is supposed to look like, Every rag is airbrushed fantasy. no truth, from tans to boobs to fake booties. It sickens me to no end. I say do away with all of this pageant crap especially since it starts at age 3 in most cases.
I'm so tired of telling people this, but sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender identity disorder. There are 3 factors, your outward biological makeup, your mental biological makeup, and your sexual orientation, all seperate. Most people have the same gender brain and body, and are attracted to the opposite sex, some have same body same sex same orientation, some have body different biologically gendered brain, opposite gender orientation, and the list goes on. Not everyone born with a female brain and male body likes men, in fact most like women.
@lyrica No one is doubting their sexual orientation. The fact is that they were born with testicles and not ovaries. They are a gay man masquerading as a woman. Its ok to be gay, I don't care how they act, but it doesn't change the simple fact that cosmetic surgery or hormone therapy cannot change sex - only behavior.
Sex -
1: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures
2
: the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females
My emphasis added.
I have to say, from her photograph, I'd never guess she was not born a woman.
Beauty pageants are silly affairs anyway. But rules are rules.
@rawr, it is ok to be gay, but people with gender identity disorder most of the time are not gay from their born physical form, they are born with the wrong gender brain, but still are attracted to women. Some are attracted to men. Gay men do not want to be with or want to be women the majority of the time, they like men and think they are men. People with gender identity disorder are completely misunderstood to the point of not even having a place in society and it is very sad since most people with it end up committing suicide at a young age from having no information on what they are, they are the more than suppressed, they don't even feel human. To talk like most people in this post are from their predisposed beliefs is incredibly inhuman.
hs321, This is an old discussion however for your benefit....consider this, if there was indisputable scientific or medical proof that sexual orientation (not gender orientation those are 2 different things) was a result of genetics, DNA, biology or any other scientific or medical reason that could be tested....don't you think every gay person would be walking around in a t-shirt that said "I'm Gay And I'm Born This Way"....don't you think that there would lines a mile long to get tested for the "gay gene".....don't you think the studies that proved this would be on the front cover and headline of every magazine and newspaper IN THE WORLD.... don't you think that the scientists or researchers that discovered this "natural proof of sexual orientation causes" would not be on every talk show the world over??????? However none of that has taken place take a guess why....yep because it does not exist and there is no proof that sexual orientation is anything other than intelligent choice. Sorry to burst your bubble....but that's the facts jack.
And I might add, why would she want to be in a beauty contest...so she can be exploited like the rest...she wants the full exploitation treatment does she?
, just because we're not there yet doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. A hundred and so years ago someone flew a plane for the first time, before then it was laughed at. At one point the idea of the sun being the center of our solar system was not only laughed at but imprisoned and killed, it is only with level headed scientific research that things are proven, until then we have ignorant people knocking it into the ground setting back the truth. Lack of scientific evidence is not proof of anything.
@echo I'm sorry dude, you cant change your gender like you change your shirt. What you are born as is what you are. Yes, lots of people have lots of good, scientifically verifiable reasons for the decisions that they make as far as elective surgery and sexual orientation. But the fact remains the same. This guy is a guy.
so because this person was born with the shirt of a man, and the heart of a female, they should just live like that to make society more comfortable?, why can't they change their shirt?
I think Davila was misquoted...
It should be:
Obviously this is a lost cause. And i'd like to thank you all for being mass murderers mentally and physically to people that don't fit your criteria of what should be without taking into consideration that maybe you don't know everything.
When does a straight guy make the "intelligent choice" to prefer blondes, readheads, or brunettes? How about the "intelligent choice" to be attracted to women of a particular body shape?
The only ones who have any "choice" in expressing their orientation with a same-sex or hetero relationship are the folks who are bisexual. For everyone else, the only choice involved is whether or not to act on the attraction they feel.
i've become convinced that society itself is run by the dunning kruger effect . Look it up. It explains everything, especially the majority if these comments.
Why make such a big deal about this? Has no one heard of tact? Let her compete, just don't let her win if you don't want her to, and you're golden. Where did these people learn how to run any sort of organization? Not saying I agree with their homophobia, but let's get real. Don't let her compete and the media eats you alive, let her compete and it's a minor blip on the radar. Regardless of their beliefs, someone making decisions there is grossly incompetent.
and for the millionth time what does this have to do with homosexuality, become educated before you comment. Gender Identity Disorder has little to do with Sexual Orientation.
If he was born a male, then to bad an operation doesnt change a thing, sorry, no lawsuit here.
get a life You trangender loser!
It's funny how like 70% of the posts up in hyar are from people trying to play scientist. It's hilarious.
Thanks Echo.....but "Lack of scientific evidence is not proof of anything." the lack of scientific evidence does not prove anything, so it neither proves the theory nor the opposite to that theory.
"just because we're not there yet doesn't mean that it doesn't exist" unfortunately in the real world it does...man could not fly an airplane until the airplane and its integral theories and parts were put together which took years of experimentation, research, trial and error and then men could fly in airplanes....up until that time they could not. When scientific and medical research have come to the point that they can prove that sexual (since you and hs#### brought it up, as gender orientation is something different as I said) orientation is a matter of biology then it will have to remain intelligent choice.....we stay on the ground so to speak. I would say that research would be better directed to cancer and HIV cures....but if you must know then I suppose the research will continue.
Yosho - WTF? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder we all have the choice to be or not be attracted to whomever we choose to be attracted to....including Gays and Bi's ..... however the proven natural attraction in mammals is to the opposite sex for the purpose of pro-creation and the survival of the species....everything after that is advertising. Wombats are not naturally attracted to rabbits despite the fact that they are cute fuzzy creatures......they can not pro-create with rabbits.
Some of you people really need to go back to school and get some basic science learning before you make yourselves look like such fools on a public forum. Your theories, opinions, hopes, dreams and wishes are not facts....try to get a grip on that.
In other words, most of us are too stupid to realize just how stupid we are, right?
Probably true for all of us, at least part of the time.
rawr~
My comment was in regard to Roscoe's statement that there was no evidence supporting a connection towards biology and sexual orientation, not whether or not surgery erases the fact that he was born a male. Also, surgery does not change behavior, even without it he would believe he was a woman born in a mans body and his behavior would exemplify that. He may feel more 'free' to act that way, but I doubt that he wouldn't behave that way at all without the changes.
Yank...all I know is what I've read. Decades ago researchers noted that male mice that were between two females on the umbilical cord did not demonstrate normal male behavior, while male mice between two males demonstrated exaggerated behaviors. The hunch was it was a result of different levels of estrogen exposure. Further testing confirmed that increasing estrogen levels during gestation would cause male mice to show no desire to mate females or indulge in any other male behaviors like marking territory and fighting other males. These same tests have been conducted in rats, cats, dogs, sheep, goats, cattle, monkeys and apes with exactly the same results.
Based on these facts, what do you think would be the most scientifically accurate assumption about another mammal, humans?
Demographics of men born in Europe during the Allied Force's air raids demonstrates an approximately 100% increase in the number of homosexual men. Do you suppose the fact that women under extreme stress, such as that experienced while running for your life to a bomb shelter, secrete extra estrogen had anything at all to do with it? What would be a good scientific assumption.
For some interesting leisure reading try several books on psychoneuroendocrinology. You will have to go the library in the nearest medical center, as you won't find much to read on the subject at your local library.
Come ON people... using Wikipedia as the source for your "facts"???? Try a RELIABLE source for facts for a change.
ok, Lyrica (post 1.9):
As to your quote "Born male or not you have to be true to who you are..."
No one has a problem with it - WE just dont need to be true to who SHE is.
If no one had a problem with it, she'd be allowed to compete, and you wouldn't worry about 'needing' to be true to who she is.
hs321, perhaps you should consider the source of what you are reading or take it with a grain of salt.
The research you speak of has little value....if you inject fetuses with stuff you will get a reaction of some sort.
The other one studying the differences in male behaviour in rats (as this research has not been undertaken on the other species to my knowledge, and most of the animals you mentioned would generally not have "litters" as such) depending on their position on the cord has some value. However you then need to put parameters on what may or may not be considered "normal male rat" behaviour to reach a theoretical decision, another study altogether, and even then the testing to prove that theory would be much more extensive than just a couple of general assessments.
Further there are no such things as "scientifically accurate assumptions" that is a real oxymoron an assumption can not be scientifically accurate.
"Demographics of men born in Europe during the Allied Force's air raids demonstrates an approximately 100% increase in the number of homosexual men." What a fantastic statement.....so the question you have to ask yourself (besides WTF) is "is that a big number?" 100% increase sounds incredible, massive, unbelievable (that is what you should go with)......but before you can determine how big a number you are quoting as some meaningful example of something is, you have to understand what number that percentage was applied too. For example if there was 100 homosexuals in Europe at the time of the bombing then that would have equated to a grand total of 200 homosexuals but if there was only 1 left by the time the bombing had finished then that would only be 2 homosexuals.......now is that a big number or just BS.
Since there is no way that could have been tested in any event it is BS.....why and where in the world did you get or make that up from I wonder???????
The person that brought up how the brain is effected during Utero, which ultimately determines "female brain" or "male brain".... I don't not disagree, but your argument is flawed. You say this contestant feels like a woman(b/c of the brain) therefore he was meant to be a woman, but I argue that the brain ultimately determines the growth into a man or woman, The brain controls hormones throughout the body and had this contestant let the natural process of growth on his body he would experienced all the things that come with being a man because of his "Brain". He would not have experienced increased with of the hips, growth of breast, menstrual cycle, ect. during puberty which are characteristics of women. Puberty is the result of the brain controlling hormones. (I know there are exceptions such as, lacking the ability to process testosterone will result in female characteristics with an individual having XY chromosomes).
I don't care if you are gay or want to have a sex change just sharing thoughts on this matter. If you were born with penis you were meant to be a man and are always a man. Men can not compete in women sports and this is not different. If I had a sex change I could not run women's track or play in the WNBA (assuming I was good enough lol.)
"She" wouldn't have won anyway. Those are some manly legs!
Like hell! I wish my legs looked like that. (I'm female, btw.)
At first glance she looks hot. But then... the lower stomach. And the legs. And then the posture. No. That's not a woman.
In any case, it takes more than hormone shots and cosmetic surgery to make a woman.
And that's EXACTLY why you're going to die a virgin.
That is 1 ugly thing whatever it is.
In my experience, there are some ways of telling if someone has had such an operation, especially in person. Those may have been a basis for elimination eventually, but the fact that she got as far in the process as she did means that the judges noticed any such indicators.
If she had competed and been eliminated for the usual superficial standards of such pageants, that would have been one thing. If the contest were based completely and honestly on the results of what someone's genes combined with working out and so on gave them, and any surgical assistance was basis for disqualification, then a lot of contestants who currently compete would be eliminated.
Personally, I see no more reason to Talackova to be disqualified than anyone who doesn't have the nose or bust that God gave her.
People are so funny. If you didn't know, you'd be slobbering. She started hormones at 14, so I don't see how she could have manly legs whatever that is, since they never developed in that way. At that age, she would even develop a larger pelvis and her shoulders should get large, which is exactly what we see here.
Lol Keira, I was thinking the same thing. I would wager if people didn't know they wouldn't think the legs are 'manly' (wish I had legs like that) or the stomach was 'off'.
It was only a matter of time before she blew her chances by staying up all night with her buddies playing poker and cow tipping anyway...
Well, he was sure to be found out. He saved everyone some time.
Big feet too.....
I knew @ 4 I was a girl and began taking hormones. So evidently your hormones didn't know what you knew.
Give me a break.
The person that brought up how the brain is effected during Utero, which ultimately determines "female brain" or "male brain".... your argument is flawed. You say this contestant feels like a woman(b/c of the brain) therefore he was meant to be a woman(there are exceptions, but he has a sex change meaning he had a penis at one point), but I argue that the brain ultimately determines the growth into a man or woman, The brain controls hormones throughout the body and had this contestant let the natural process of growth on his body he would experienced all the things that come with being a man because of his "Brain". He would not have experienced increased width of the hips, growth of breast, menstrual cycle, ect. during puberty which are characteristics of women. Puberty is the result of the brain controlling hormones. (I know there are exceptions such as, lacking the ability to process testosterone will result in female characteristics with an individual having XY chromosomes).
I don't care if you are gay or want to have a sex change just sharing thoughts on this matter. If you were born with penis you were meant to be a man and are always a man. Men can not compete in women sports and this is not different. If I had a sex change I could not run women's track or play in the WNBA (assuming I was good enough lol.)
Wow, some of you are truly mean! She is a female NOW and should legally be able to compete in a pageant. This is not a sport, where she might have an unfair advantage.
If you have X and Y chromosomes, you can only ever pretend to be a girl. That's fine and more power to you if that makes you happier, but you're only female on the surface. I doubt many transgender women can give birth.
Didn't mean to comment on this article, but I saw this comment. This isn't a topic that interests me, but any comment like this feels like a stab at science and bioengineering. Give it a century or two, and it'll be possible.
AG99 - You're just plain wrong.
Birth defects are not peoples fault or choice.
Gender is not a birth defect. Paying a sugeon to cut off your penis doesn't make you a girl.
You're simply wrong. They're people with XY chromosomes that develop as female (infertile) and visa versa.
Doing research first then post.
Infertile women can't give birth, does that mean they stop being women?
My Biology professor told me theirs never been one documented case of a person born with male and female genitalia. Woman cant have an X chromosone. Men can have two Y chromosomes, but their still men.
No. It means they have a health condition.
My friend has only one testicle. Does that make him half a man? No. He has a health condition.
This hybrid creature does not have a health condition. It has a psychological condition exploited by medical doctors. It can never be a woman. It can only be made to superficially look like a woman.
It is sad so many people still do not recognize that there is a great deal more to being a woman than physical accoutrements.
That's your opinion. She can and is a woman, because being a woman IS more than just the body. If she lives every day of her life as a woman and is seen as a woman, how is she not a woman. Is being a woman something metaphysical outside the body?
Jonathan, you clearly had an incompetent biology teacher or you weren't paying attention. Males are born with XY chromosomes, females XX chromosomes, so, yes, females are born with X chromosomes. Then there are people born XXY or XXYY.
Of course, there are humans (and other animals) born with both male and female genitalia, or external male genitalia and internal female anatomy. The antiquated term was hermaphrodite, now the correct term is intersex. There are myriad ways our chromosomes are expressed. Not everyone is just male or just female.
Jonathan - well if your biology professor told you something, then God knows it must be true. Face it, there are lots of people in the education field these days with an agenda to push. Cruise over to Wikipedia and take a look at the write up for hermaphrodite.
birth defect.....LOL! come on, it's a man trying to be a woman, plain and simple.
some of the "porn" sites have various PICTURES of hermaphrodites, too. Except for the testes, they are fully equipped for both genders. I don't know if they are self fertile, but it would give a new perspective to the old "go screw yourself" taunt.
He looks like he got a boob implant. Should have done something about the hips and rear too. He still has his man stuff there.
get back in your cage canary...
Jack, If you start hormones at 14, you'll get the same development a women who started puberty at 14 would get. So, breasts, butt, pelvis, everything, is as nature intended; if you see anything "manly, it is all in your head". So, she developed as a any woman would; that you like how she looks is a matter of taste and nothing else.
Jonathan:
Go ask your biology prof. to look up the word hermaphroditic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite#Humans
It will destroy his teachings on chromosomes also.
no, I was actually serious. Either the doctors are getting VERY good at genital replication, or it's "real". I have no idea of which case is correct. From what I've been TOLD, some Thai plastic surgeons can do a replication so accurate that ONLY a gene test can tell the TRUTH. As to the rest, though, mea culpa - couldn't resist throwing a few double entendres around.
In 500 years when some forensic anthropologist digs up this dude's skeleton, they are going to say something like, "male specimen with surgical changes." They aren't going to care about their psychology or behavior.
And it's almost funny to me that someone who infers that what makes a woman is so much more than physical accoutrements says Jenna is a "creature" for feeling that those exact same physical features were the only thing she lacked to be a woman.
Keira-
Oh YES.
That is, it used to be. Maybe not so much anymore, but that too is a health condition caused in large part by a hormonal imbalance, and can be self-corrected. In fact, I'm considering writing a book on the subject, if enough people express an interest. The publisher is testing on Twitter and other social media.
Yes, a "normal" woman is, among other things, highly empathetic. Society recognizes this as "nurturing" and it is what children need in order to thrive and men seek beyond sex. It is the civilizing force in society.
The relative lack of feminine energy in society is why you will read about so many atrocities in the news today. And tomorrow. It will only get worse, regardless of the number of laws written and rights lost.
Feminine energy is special, it is real, and it is key.
And it can't be bestowed with a scalpel.
Yosho--
Jenna is a confused male existing in a fake female body.
Women are not men with vaginas. We are different in ways no man can ever understand and no science can replicate. We are physically and psychically connected to the rhythm of nature. We have intuitive awareness that males do not possess and can never experience--like a person who cannot see the color red. We literally have a different brain. We are not you, and you can never be us.
Nor can you ever be us. What is your point other than the obvious?
Yeah, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
Keira DesbiensJack, If you start hormones at 14, you'll get the same development a women who started puberty at 14 would get. So, breasts, butt, pelvis, everything, is as nature intended; if you see anything "manly, it is all in your head". So, she developed as a any woman would; that you like how she looks is a matter of taste and nothing else.
So if what you are trying to deem as 100% fact did he have a period every month? If not he is still a male. Shots or no shots.
Jonathan (post 3.6)
There are MANY hermaphrodites (sex organs of both genders). That has NOTHING to do with genetics.
Even those hermaphrodites are EITHER male or female.
When I read the article it doesn't mention this person is or was a hermaphrodite.
Wow, I hope she sues them out of existence for discrimination.
"She" is a man. It's not discrimination because it's a biological fact, and the name of the pagent is "Ms. Universe"
He's not a female - no matter what he's grown or cut off.
How can you be that idiotic.People like you are why republican villains get votes.You're crazy
Sue for discrimination of what from what? Man from a woman?
She should sue God for not being born a woman.
"I'm suing you because I'm a man who had surgery and took hormones so I could look like a woman, but I wasn't born a woman and I'm not really a woman, I just THINK I am."
Don't be ridiculous!
chromosomal test shows clearly that the gender is MALE. The rules SAY "FEMALE" and the easy way to tell is to look in the GENES, not the JEANS.
No Jonathan-1106199 -- it is now, and has always been, Miss, not Ms. For married women, it is Mrs., and for unmarried women, it is Miss.
Being born with the wrong genitals and without other parts IS a birth defect (example; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex). Its only a few closed minded people who choose to see someone for what they show outwardly instead of who they are. Changing ones body to be the way it should have been from birth is not wrong, and I'll have words with any who say otherwise.
He won't sue them. He wouldn't win.
KatGirl...according to polls, Americans are believed to be lacking in science.
According to this comment section, it's established fact.
TV and Movies have done transgender people horrible disservice depicting them really poorly and choosing physically less then attractive actors(usually with way overstated features) and cast them in very poor roles. Religions have added to this by filling peoples heads with many things they say are 'evil' when that couldn't be further from the truth. I understand many people are A.) Conservatives or B.) Believe everything they see on t.v., but please don't degrade people for something that is in no way their fault thats just as wrong as degrading someone for the color of their hair or skin.
Kat girl I do not mean to demean anyone. My theory is in fact a birth defect. But not physically, No I think it is a mental defect.
@katgirl. Blurring the lines between sexes is a big mistake. You don't get to choose your gender. This individual chose to take hormones. They also chose to have elective surgery based on appearances. If choice is all that matters in being a specific gender, then I am hereby a lesbian born into a male body. I demand that I be allowed into women's locker rooms. Oh but I'm terrified of doctors so I'll never get any surgery.
You all should just watch my talk on human sex differentiation.
I anticipated the misconception about chromosomes, and sure enough the audience went for it. No, having XY chromosomes doesn't automatically make you male. There are XY females and XX males. Many ways this can happen. Those are intersex conditions. Transgendered people are not intersex. Instead, they're born into the wrong body. This woman is a woman because she was born with a FEMALE brain. The fMRI evidence shows that transgendered people's brains are like the brains of their desired sex, not their birth sex. She was a woman who was born into the wrong body, and surgery and hormone treatments corrected that mistake so she is living truly as she is.
Wow a lot of debate on birth and birth defects but not much peep about the contest. How about we judge the pageant as natural beauty as you can get? No make up, no highlights, no surgery? Then we shall see who truly is beautiful.
Transgendered people are not intersex. Instead, they're born into the wrong body. This woman is a woman because she was born with a FEMALE brain.
.....................................................
His " FEMALE Brain ". His brain if he would have allowed it without hormone therapy, would have eventually (puberty) resulted in his balls dropping, growing bodily hair associated with males, sperm production, etc. ( there are exception, such as inability to process testosterone, but he had a penis so he clearly did not have this problem.) Fact is his brain is male, he body would have been male, he will always be a male. Males can not compete in women sports and this is no different. If a male got a sex change and tried to compete in women sports he would be denied b/c of the difference in physical abilities of the average man compared to the average woman.
S/he didn't "know" s/he was a girl at 4 years old. 4 year olds don't know anything in general, let alone something so complex as transgenderism. And if the contest has written rules on the subject, deal with it.
Majority of real experts disagree with your statement.
Of course she didn't know about "transgenderism" at 4. And of course she DID know she was a girl at 4.
Sorry but he's just a man with mutilated genitals. You can't change that. And you shouldn't be delusional about it either.
Megan,
let's see the data to support your "majority of real experts" statement.
He didn't know about much of anything at 4 except how to be a little boy.
Megan Hall-5549289:
I'd ask you to back that up, but if you could you would've already, so hush.
Sara_DC:
Whatever, thanks for at least trying.
Says the person who can't even use the article to back up their claim...
...because the article counters it!
I know for a fact that you are wrong Eugene, from personal experience.
How echo are you a trans-gender? I would be with the ugliest woman in the world than the sexiest trans-gender. That's my personal preference, but, what does that have to do with the article?
Her body looks "manly." I'm Canadian (born female, continue to be female) and I've never heard of the "must be born female to compete in the Miss Universe Canada Pageant." I think she should be able to compete, don't think she would win though.
You haven't heard of the rule because I assume you're not into competing in pageants. If she's unable to win in your eyes, why could she compete? I think it should stand as is, you must be born a female to compete.
Geez, Bonnie...if that is a manly body, I guess I am totally gay. Dammit.
I've seen swimmers and female bodybuilders who look a helluva lot more "manly" than the above pic. How about you try challenging them to prove that they didn't have an operation?
I believe in equal rights for all people. She should compete in the Pageant because she is a beautiful woman that wants to be chosen Miss Universe. I'm not a judge. I just made a statement about "manly." I'll state it more succinctly, she has manly legs. Not shaped like a woman's legs.
Bonnie, pick a side and go with it, waffler. He is not a woman, he is a man with his junk in a landfill, who is loaded with performance enhancing drugs for this type of competition. Maybe that is the solution to avoid frivolous "discrimination" lawsuits...outlaw the hormone therapy.
He just didn't read the fine print is all.
Happster:
I think Congress and the Catholic just got done trying to outlaw hormone therapy a couple weeks ago.
GIMME A DAMN BREAK, another CHANGE petition for this? kiss my ass, over using a once good service. Your a MAN.
You are asking another man to kiss your ass?
KINKY... what about the whips and devices? sheesh - my sarcasm is getting the better of me...
In comes another lawsuit....
Which she will lose because she is a man. Not a woman.
If she's had a sex change, then she legally is a female, right?
So why shouldn't a female be allowed to compete in the Miss Universe pageant?
Legally female depends on whatever laws you live under. In CA, for example, I can register as a female (all the way to BC I believe) as long as I am on HRT and identify female. However, I submit a renewal form every x years to remain so. After having a sex change, the status becomes permanent.
Can s(he) give birth?
@Frank There are women that can't give birth. Do we stop calling them women because their reproductive organs don't function properly?
Megan is right. Birth isn't an indication of woman-hood. DNA is. And this man's DNA is that of a man, which unfortunatley for him, he is.
Megan,take the manly way out.And yes,if a woman can't concieve she is a man.Are you that dumb.You can use whatever convoluted logic you want.
'scuse me - so a human natural freemartin is a MALE? certainly coulda FOOLED ME. genetically FEMALE - can be outwardly whatever they want but GENETICALLY the GENDER is whatever the TEST RESULTS SAY IT IS (like it or NOT) - cutting to the chase (pun intended) - is the outward appearance female", then it's a woman. Does the proposed contestant MEET THE STATED RULES... NO! (but it doesn't make any difference to me). Stretching another question - can she marry a man...what about marrying another WOMAN? interesting unplowed legal ground...
No Megan, we don't stop calling them women...we call them women with infertility issues. Back to the actual discussion, this is a man with his peter in a landfill somewhere.
This person was not born sterile. They were born with the capacity to reproduce. But they chose to get rid of it. If they wanted to have kids, they could have had intercourse with any woman who was also able and willing to make children because they are a man. As for people with hysterectomies and vasectomies, they made they same reproductive decision: they are still the same gender but sterile.
STOP saying genes determine your sex! You guys making my brain hurt! It's 2012 and people don't know that DNA isn't what determines your sex? Ahhhh! No, genes determine gonads at week 7 of gestation, and thereabouts. Gonads make hormones. Hormones give instructions for genital development and also affect the brain. These set of events are extremely complex. Then there's social expectations. Sex determination happens at ALL of those levels. DNA alone does NOT determine your sex. That's just the most egregious myth out there. DNA, plus gonads, plus hormones in utero, plus what your genitals look like, plus functional neurology, plus psychosocial issues-- only when ALL that is considered can you try to assign sex. The Olympics had to scrap karyotyping to screen for sex, after getting into some real hot waters. This woman definitely had a female brain when she was born, and she got the wrong body at birth. Hormone therapy and surgery corrected the error so she is as she should be. A woman.
Did you know this girl at a four? If not I suggest you can take your comments and your hypothisis and take some male hormones to fix your otherwise confused brain. I know its the invasion of the body snatchers.
Wrong brain, right body. Right brain, wrong body. Next your going to tell us about the "God Gene" you know all about but can't prove.
Way to go organizers of the Canadian Ms Universe Canada. Excellent decision........only real honest to goodness women may participate......Fantastic decision...stick to it. No fakes, phonies, or altered humans may apply only pure natural BORN women...right on.......
Well, they're failing that standard if any contestant that they give a pass has ever had a nose job, tummy tuck, or breast augmentation surgery.
...OR lipo, OR bleached hair, OR hair/nail/lash extensions....and so on. They'd have two girls competing and they'd both be size 14s so everyone would think they weren't attractive. Who the hell cares? It's a shallow ritual, and she should just raise herself above it. I don't care what the hell sex someone is, if they're a good person. And I'm not sure I believe people are born the wrong sexual orientation, either...but I'm not in the study of such so I don't know for sure....why be scared to say that? And for God's sake everyone stop going to Wikipedia as the authority, you could be reading a study by a twelve-year-old.
She's not fake there Genius ah what's your name?Oh yeah Steve again.Even before she was born her brain was programmed to be a woman! You think she went through all that hell just because?No because mentally she was programmed to be feminine.She didn't choose it, she didn't decide one day out of the blue, looking in the mirror, and saying Oh I want to be a woman.
Doesn't happen that way Steve, they're born that way,just like homosexuals, NO CHOICE in the matter!
Oh and Yosho plenty of these women in these beauty contests have had work done, let's be honest here shall we?
That was my point. As I mentioned in another post, if folks like Steve insist on "pure" and "natural", the contests would be quite different, or have completely different contestants.
Let's make it even more real. No hair color, false eyelashes, and makeup. Hey wait, how come nobodies watching the show.
Why do we only get to exploit women for money?
Ultimately, this person was born as a man, got his gender-specific equipment removed, and entered this pageant. OK? Thats like me getting elective leg amputation surgery to enter the special olympics.
Does anyone else see what's potentially funny in this?
If you want to cut off your leg to get into the Paralympics, that's your call.
So your argument is that women are disabled? and that their contests are for the disabled?
This man took artificial estrogen to help with what he wanted to accomplish. But its a horrible thing if anyone takes artificial testosterone to help with what they want to accomplish.
But actually my argument about the "disabled" person is based in reality.
Amputee Article
@Adela,
There are a lot of things you don't know for sure. That's for sure.
I think she is just gorgeous. Nothing manlike about her. I take good care of myself, but still, I don't look like her! I wish her good luck!
Amen, Xenia. She is hot, any way you look at it. For all the pseudo-science people up above, you really don't have enough facts to know her gender. They have found a lot of variations on the XX and XY thing, and it is nowhere near as straightforward as we thought. All human genome displays are pretty close, regardless of sex or race. Many more similarities than differences.
Nothing manlike about her except her DNA. Which is what his entire body is comprised of. And he doesn't have a chromosome variation. Woman can't have a Y chromosome. Males can have two Y chromosomes and maybe two x chromosomes (that's extremely rare) but their still men. They just have wider hips and more breast tissue.
Ahh, thanks for clearing that up Jonathan. So many geneticists didn't have it right.
Jonathan: ever heard of androgen insensitivity syndrome? Or SRY deletions? Or 5-alpha reductase deficiency? Swyer syndrome? All result in XY females. XX males exist too: de la Chappelle syndrome. There is a @!$%#load of events that happen going from DNA to phenotype. This lady had a female brain at birth. Yes, her chromosomes were XY, but her in-utero environment and fetal development was not typical for a male fetus and she wound up with a female brain. Therapy corrected the error.
I can't tell that she was a man in this picture but I can tell if I met her in person if I looked into her hands. Not because they are manly or not, I have feminine hands. See your ring finger and index finger and compare it with the opposite sex and you will know. Sex is based on DNA, however, gender is not. Gender is based on society. Now the question is: Where does the "Ms." title comes from? DNA or society? Other than that I think Ms. Universe is a dumb contest, I know that they do some humanitarian charity work, but I think overall its plain stupid judging someone based on looks and how many question they can answer without looking like a fool.
What value is a contest to see who can run the fastest,swim the fastest, throw a javelin the farthest, lift the most weight or score the most points in a game? None just like a beauty pageant.
Think for a minute folks.... would you want LPGA, womens track, womens softball, womens swimming etc. dominated by men who decided they were really women?
Move on, nothing to see here......
What's your excuse to be ignorant on history? We have already decided this issues (such as Renee Richards). Evidence says MtF on HRT have no advantage over "natural born" females.
She is right, and I don't know a lot of men that are willing to undergo sex change in order to compete. That is a pretty imaginary problem.
She had the sex change surgery she is female. Shame on Canada.
My 1951 Ford pickup has Mustang suspension all around, big ol' Mustang engine, transmission, driveshaft rear end, sway bars, 4-wheel disk brakes.....and the original shape 1951 Ford pickup body.
It's a 1951 Ford pickup. Add ons or deletions can't change the truth. He/she is a man. If he had his junk blown off in a terrorist attack, what would he be? Damaged. But a damaged man.
Again, no he's not a female, shame on you for being delusional.
Big difference between losing one's "junk" in the line of duty and choosing to have surgery to match one's sense of identity.
I'll remember that consideration for other people's opinions next time I see you post something I disagree with on other articles.
I had a hysterectomy, I am now a man....!!! ???
Sh*t doesn't work that way.
Did you have your hysterectomy out of choice or necessity? There is a big difference. I can see that it could be possible a female brain developing in a male body, however who says that you cannot be a female in a male body and I am sorry but when one starts hacking off body parts cuz they hate them or feel they don't belong...to me that is the highest form of self abuse.
so we need the BASIC question answered - Is it OUTWARD genital appearances which determine GENDER? OR is it GENETIC? Classically, it's APPEARANCE. SCIENTIFICALLY, it's GENETIC.
So the question about hysterectomy - no, you STILL appear as FEMALE by your genitalia
IF your genitalia is "modified" to be FEMALE (transgender assignment) are you MALE or FEMALE - you LOOK "female" but GENETICALLY, you are MALE.
We always COULD throw "actions" into the mix at this point and introduce homosexuality as well.
So we can make the equation even MORE "muddled" - I went to school with a guy who stepped on a land mine in 'Nam. Blew off both of his nuts, part of one hand and one eye. What gender was he? (of course, his former wife divorced him because he couldn't produce children...)
I'm just trying to show that it's not QUITE as straight forward as it seems.
cm 2413397-- transgendered youth have a lot of psychosocial problems. Depression, anxiety. When they get hormone treatments and gender reassignment surgery, they are by and large cured. Happy, functional, productive. Looking forward to life. Does that sound like self-abuse? Transgendered people have the brains of the desired sex, not the birth sex. Hormone therapy and surgery correct the error.
I expect this in the U.S. but Canada? Legalizing gay marriage yadi yadi yada. If there is a lesson to be learned here is that our neighbors in the north are just as intolerant as we are if not more stuck up. Why so obssessed about Ms. Universe? Look around there are beautiful women all everywhere.
No they don't. That's nonsense.
A female brain is built, in part, by her systemic connection with natural rhythms.
No man ever had that, and no man ever will.
patter123: you sound like a sexist bigot ... essentially: [you are just better than any man can be solely due to your female birth ]
Life is like a Box of Chocolates, you never know what you're going to get but there are times when you really need to know what you're going to get...
I'm sorry but if they had to cut off your d1ck, you're not "miss" anything.
Wrong you are "miss"ing a dick. Bad joke please collapse.
Now if they had a girlyman universe contest he could enter that .
The only thing miss-ing is his junk.The contest is for WOMEN . Not guys with things hacked off .
She's a male. Her "being" is male. Her personality is male. Her body is a bionic configuration of female parts. Yeah for the Canadian Miss Universie Committee. Woe to the confused people who think black is white, and white is black; who think good is evil, and evil is good. (Is. 5.20). What a nutty world we live in, where people think nothing is stable.
Please tell me you're a teacher at a private religious school. I'd hate to think you're spouting scripture in a history class being paid for by people who don't believe the same as you and teaching their kids something the parents would disagree with.
there is no Is or Ls 5.20, you made that up.
Wow...what other OUTCOME could possible be EXPECTED!
I hope they ban anyone that has modified their looks in any way other than naturally exercise and diet (food). It shouldn't be right that a girl or guy can win a contest by going to see a doctor for drugs or surgery.
One of the most idiotic discussions that has ever taken place.
It is a "natural born female beauty contest"... not a "freak show carnival at the Circus".
They are not freaks. They are just not natural born women as the rules state.
Actually, the rules don't include any such requirement. The article even provided a link.
Speedy, your the kind of person that made me want to commit suicide when I was younger, I really thank you.
Picketing starts tomorrow at dawn. Uh....10:15.
Out !
"Miss Universe Canada organizers boot transgender contestant"
Good.
Really Good and why's that?
...why's that ???......Because HE's Not A GIRL...... MAN!!! or should I say....IT'S not a girl IT'S a GUY!
What's the matter with your head....stop asking rhetorical questions. WOW what flippin crazy effed up society.
caint be no homos in da pagent meng, sheet meng