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Abdul Khaleq / AP
An Afghan policeman checks a man entering the police station near the gate of a joint civilian-military base where two British soldiers part of the NATO forces were killed south of Kabul in Afghanistan.
Updated at 12:26 p.m. ET: Three NATO troops were killed in Afghanistan on Monday in two separate attacks apparently carried out by members of local security forces.
A gunman wearing an Afghan army uniform killed two NATO troops in southern Afghanistan, while another was shot in eastern Afghanistan by an alleged member of the Afghan Local Police.
The deaths appeared to be the latest in a string of so-called "green on blue" attacks in which Afghan security forces have turned on their international colleagues or mentors.
The incident in which two died took place in Lashkar Gah in the southern Helmand province, an Afghan security source told Reuters. It will be investigated by a joint Afghan-NATO team.
"The individual who opened fire was killed when coalition forces returned fire," NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) said in a statement about that incident. It did not identify the two NATO soldiers or give their nationality.
The Lashkar Gah base is dominated by British forces and a NATO official told The Associated Press the two victims were British soldiers. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not yet been formally announced.
Britain's Ministry of Defense said it was aware of the Lashkar Gah incident, but refused to release any more details or confirm whether the soldiers were British.
Staff Sgt. Bales' wife to TODAY: 'He would not do that'
In a later statement about the shooting in eastern Afghanistan, ISAF said: :According to operational reports, the ISAF service member was shot by an alleged member of the Afghan Local Police as the security force approached an ALP checkpoint. The circumstances behind the incident are currently under investigation by Afghan and coalition forces."
There were no further details immediately available.
Insider attacks have mounted in recent months as tension between Afghanistan and its foreign backers rises over a series of incidents including the burning of Qurans at a NATO base and the killing of 17 villagers in southern Kandahar for which a U.S. soldier has been charged.
Before Monday's attack, 13 members of the NATO-led force had been killed this year in what appeared to be attacks by members of Afghan forces, the commander of U.S. and NATO forces, General John Allen, told a U.S. Senate committee last week.
Kari Bales, the wife of Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, the soldier who stands accused of murdering 17 Afghan civilians, talks exclusively to TODAY's Matt Lauer about the "devastating" accusations against her husband, saying "this is not him."
About 70 members of the NATO force have been killed in 42 insider attacks from May 2007 to January this year.
The shootings raise new concern about the reliability of Afghan forces and their ability to take over security responsibilities by the end of 2014, when most Western combat forces leave.
Reuters, The Associated Press, NBC News' Cheryll Simpson and msnbc.com staff contributed to this report.
More from msnbc.com and NBC News:
- Wife of Staff Sgt. Bales: 'I just don't think he was involved'
- Scientists: Venice sinking five times faster than thought
- Gunman in Afghan army uniform kills 2 NATO troops
- Cash-for-access scandal leaves UK government reeling
- Retired Turkish general faces terrorism trial
- Transgender candidate booted from Miss Universe Canada
Follow us on Twitter: @msnbc_world
Leave a Comment:
will afganistan government going apologize???? for nato death by their troops and paid the families of those soldiers.....nope only weak president would do such a thing
krazy
You talking about bush or obama? Look at the dates. Or are you just talking?
Sometimes the head of state (President Obama) has to apologize for actions committed by troops of their country, on behalf of the nation. It's a part of international relations and diplomacy.
Krazy, you're a good troll, but hopefully people realize that the Afghan government doesn't have the same moral or ethical standards we purport to have, so don't expect Afghan president Karzai to apologize on behalf of the incident.
He's talking about Obama. In case you haven't realized it, Bush is not and hasn't been the President for some time now. And while I'll agree Bush made some bad decisions or followed some bad advise by going into Irag, Afganistan was necessary (remember 9/11). BTW I'm not a republican or a democrate, just an American and in all of my 70 yrs' this is the first president that seems hell bent on destruction of what was once a great nation.
And why should President Obama NOT have apologized for the actions of our servicemen and women? They are our representatives and we picked them to go over there, so we are responsible for them and their actions. As Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed forces, President Obama is responsible for the actions of those under his command, so when atrocities like urinating on enemy corpses, burning their holy books (albeit unintentional) and the deplorable incident of our soldier killing and burning noncombatant children in their homes and beds--when those atrocities happen the President is honor-bound to apologize for them, as any responsible leader should and would.
Also please remember that we are there as part of an international force, so our soldiers not only represent our country but also the western world at large since (I belive, though I may be wrong about this) that there are more American boots on the ground over there than from any other single country, and what our soldiers do reflects poorly on every other UN and NATO forces troop from every other country.
In much the same way that people here blame ALL muslims for the actions of the Taliban and Al-Quaeda, so too do some Afghanis blame ALL NATO and US forces for the actions of a few soldiers.
If another incident happens with our soldiers specifically, I think that the UN/NATO might just ask us to withdraw from the effort since we seem unable to control the behavior of some of our servicemen. The Brits aren't urinating on corpses and shooting/burning innocent children; neither, by report, are the soldiers of any other country currently involved with the peacekeeping forces over there. We're the only ones, and it's incidents like that that fuel Muslim hatred of us specifically and the western world in general.
Responding to hatred with hatred is just costing more lives. We need to take the moral high ground and comport ourselves with dignity, honor, and respect; only then are we going to win the respect of others.
Amanda, where is our apology? These people refuse to apologize to us, the only reason Karzi is still in power is because of us. We need to get out and leave them to their own. Then you libs can find something else to gripe about.
Well they charged us for deaths..so NATO should charge them now..that be $5 million a soldier.
Look at the jokes!
Hope after 11 years many now understand how tough it is battle in Afghanistan.
Still, George Bush, Jr danced as Saudis and Israel wanted and sent troops to Iraq in 2003. In Iraq, it ended as bad as Vietnam.
Do these jokes end?
No Sir!
Saudis, oil companies, lobbyists, Israel and their cheap puppets are back to their seventh century desert scare and war wongering dances on Syria and Iran!
Amanda- taking the "moral high ground" in this type of war is just going to get our people killed for no good reason. We have to subjugate the enemy just like we did in WWII : Total and utter destruction of the enemys ability to function, as fast as possible.
Taking the moral high ground with cockroaches is just going to create a very large problem for yourself.
Suggest some reading of history, versus the Hunger Games.
Offering an apology for the killing of innocents is not a weakness.
This stuff is war, no innocents involved here. We don't say sorry when we kill taliban nor do they when they kill us.
Let's get real people.
Skiddy said:
Amanda, where is our apology? These people refuse to apologize to us, the only reason Karzi is still in power is because of us.
Afghanistan is so fractured right now that finding a group of people who can speak for the majority and apologize is probably difficult. Also, we weren't invited there, we walked in hunting for WMD's and Bin Laden after 9-11. We're the invaders, in a very technical sense--it would be like asking the Native Americans to apologize to Britain for killing the invading Europeans, or asking the Native Americans to apologize for killing General Custer and US soldiers at Little Bighorn.
This is, in my opinion, somewhat like holding the Catholic Church responsible for the behavior of pedophiliac priests they ordained to watch over their spiritual flock. In much the same way, our Commander in Chief is responsible for the soldiers under his command.
In asking the Afghani people to apologize to us, it would be like us (I'm pagan,and I'm sort of speaking very, very generally here about non-Christanized pagan sects as a whole) apologizing to the Catholic Church for any of their priests who have been shot, stabbed, or murdered even if we were not personally responsible. It would be like the Catholic Church apologizing to practitioners of pagan belief systems for the Inquisition. It was the act of an individual and group of individuals who chose to express themselves in that way and not indicative of the citizenry as a whole. Like Homeland Security determining that Odinists are a terrorist threat just because a few (VERY FEW) people in prison are Odinists.
I'm not looking to get into an argument with you I'm simply trying to explain why I believe the way I do.
Ritdog said:
Amanda- taking the "moral high ground" in this type of war is just going to get our people killed for no good reason.
I will politely differ with you on this point. I don't believe regional stabilization and assistance wih infrastructure reconstruction efforts are not a good reason to be involved. I don't believe that training their soldiers on how to handle extremist attacks after we leave in 2014 (possibly sooner at this point) is 'not a good reason'.
We have to subjugate the enemy just like we did in WWII : Total and utter destruction of the enemys ability to function, as fast as possible.
If I remember all those conversations I had with my Dad (Vietnam and Korean War vet) abut military history correctly, what we went into WWII to do is to put an end to the threat on US soil first, then to put an end to the atrocities that Hitler and the Axis powers were committing on the European people. We did that, V-J Day and V-E Day. Then we went about liberating the deportation camps as we carried the front forward, and then we helped with infrastructure and rebuilding and repatriation where possible and accepted those for whom going back was not an option (immigrants after WWII.)
Putting side for the moment that we were led to believe that there were WMD's over there which had to be rooted out and eradicated, what we are doing over there is basically the same; we went over there and destroyed the Taliban and Al-Quaeda's ability to function. While we haven't done it completely we have made it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for them to ever do again what they did to us on 9-11. While the War On Terror is not officially over (and most likely never will be because there is ALWAYS going to be someone who doesn't agree with the prevailing majority opinion and is mentally unbalanced enough to believe that violence is a solution) our efforts, and that of the international forces also currently there, is going toward training the Afghani military to handle any future terrorist activity before we leave permanently. While the war is not officially over, for all intents and purposes the war in Afghanistan is. The War On Terror is now coming home, with or military now authorized to detain anyone considered a terrorist and, once the Enemy Expatriation Act (EEA) passes, to take US citizenship away from anyone suspected of engaging in advocating or supporting domestic terrorism.
Taking the moral high ground with cockroaches is just going to create a very large problem for yourself.
I would venture to point out that referring to people who don't believe the same thing you do as 'cockroaches', when a large portion of them are not looking for a fight and just want to be left alone to believe what they want to believe in peace, indicates that you my have a 'large problem' yourself. The only way to win a 'war' against an idea is by changing the minds, hearts, and ideas of the persons who espouse that idea; if we resort to killing innocent noncombatants in the same way that they are, we appear no better than they are and simply reinforces their belief that the US is indeed the racist, intolerant, infidel pigs they believe we are. By taking the moral high ground and not coming down to their level, but bringing them up to ours, we can change some of their minds and disincline others who may be interested in the radical element into following their tenets.
Suggest some reading of history, versus the Hunger Games.
I have not yet read that book (or series of books)--been too busy in the last year writing my own series of novels. However after seeing the trailers and the box office standings (and Jennifer Lawrence is cute) I have been considering picking up the book just to see what the hype is all about.
What some of you apparently have overlooked is that the jihadis DO NOT recognise civilians and children as "non-combatants", and they are therefore subject to attack. Time and again, their spokesmen have stated that there can be no innocents ....... you are either with them or against them.
Neither have you paid much attention to muslim degradation and disrespect for our dead.
Nor does it strike you as odd that Taliban and their allies captured by coalition forces end up in jails, fed and provided medical care. With rare exception, any they take prisoner are tortured and murdered.
Amanda, it is nice that you talked to your father about war, BUT how about really looking into what was done to win the Second World War. We gave no safe haven to old or religious areas. Shoot at us from a church? Well go to Europe and see all the bullet holes in the old churches that have not been filled in. Train yards in the middle of an ancient town? Do you think that stopped any bombing raids? Try to hit the trains, but... Oh, there are civilians in the town? Well, they support their troops killing our troops. We fought to win and win we did. The Survivors have become true believers in NOT starting any wars.
Same goes with Japan. They fought to the last man and many women took their kids and killed themselves rather than surrender. Sucks for them, but Japan is one of the least agressive countries on the Earth. Yeah, it took two Nukes to get them to quit, BUT I would not want millions of our troops to die in the invasion of Japan. Hell, just the prep bombing of Japan could well have cost Japan millions of lives as we destroyed the infrastructure, so yes, I am one for the use of those nukes.
Amanda, I am sure that Germanic and Japanese peoples just wanted to live in peace as well. Lots of people that do not want to get into war get caught up in it. That is why I agree with Ritdog when I say that if you are going to go to war, fight the war and do what has to be done to win. Deal with the survivors, BUT DESTROY the base and the "cockroaches". Destroy the SYSTEM that perpetuates this non stop conflict and beat them to the point that they either go down like Hitler with a bullet in the head or complete surrender like the Emperor of Japan.
By the way, if you are going to write a novel AND you decide to do it about war, go to a war zone for a while. Being in a war, is not the same as talking about it and once you are shot at a few times, you may change your mind about a few things.
Osiris said:
What some of you apparently have overlooked is that the jihadis DO NOT recognise civilians and children as "non-combatants", and they are therefore subject to attack. Time and again, their spokesmen have stated that there can be no innocents ....... you are either with them or against them.
I will accept that. Yes they do believe there's no such thng as a noncombatant. However, that is, as you record, among the jihadists; here's a bite of what the people think:
According to a May 2009 BBC poll, 69% of Afghans surveyed thought it was at least mostly good that the U.S. military came in to remove the Taliban – a decrease from 87% of Afghans surveyed in 2005. 24% thought it was mostly or very bad – up from 9% in 2005. The poll indicated that 63% of Afghans were at least somewhat supportive of a U.S. military presence in the country – down from 78% in 2005. Just 18% supported increasing the U.S. military's presence, while 44% favored reducing it. 90% of Afghans surveyed opposed the presence of Taliban fighters, including 70% who were strongly opposed. By an 82%–4% margin, people said they preferred the current government to Taliban rule.
Osiris said:
Neither have you paid much attention to muslim degradation and disrespect for our dead.
I did a quick search and I can find no articles saying that they have urinated on our soldiers' corpses. If you know of one, please point me in the direction of the article.
In contrast:
The issue of civilian casualties is recognized as a problem at the highest levels of ISAF command. In a September 2009 report, General McChrystal wrote "Civilian casualties and collateral damage to homes and property resulting from an over-reliance on firepower and force protection have severely damaged ISAF's legitimacy in the eyes of the Afghan people." On September 9, 2010, it was reported that 12 U.S. soldiers from a rogue squad face court-martial for allegedly murdering Maywand District civilians at random and collecting their fingers as trophies. Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering 3 Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven other soldiers are accused of covering up the killings as well as a violent assault on a new recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians. The Army Times reported that a least one of the soldiers collected the fingers of the victims as souvenirs and that some of them posed for photographs with the bodies. The Guardian newspaper has described the event as "one of the most serious accusations of war crimes to emerge from the Afghan conflict...". Andrew Holmes, Michael Wagnon, Jeremy Morlock and Adam Winfield are four of the five Stryker soldiers who face murder charges. The fifth soldier is Staff Sgt. Calvin Gibbs who has been described as the ringleader.
And then of course there's SSgt Bales deplorable actions, shooting and killing 9 Afghani children...
Osiris said:
Nor does it strike you as odd that Taliban and their allies captured by coalition forces end up in jails, fed and provided medical care. With rare exception, any they take prisoner are tortured and murdered.
No,it doesn't strike me as odd. This shows we have more humanity than they do, that we have honor and respect enough for people who are our enemies to sink to the same level at which they operate. And you do remember the Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay business. As a former detainee of an American deportation camp that international human right watch groups called 'Ritmo' because they said it looked and felt exactly like Gitmo, I can tell you that the treatment was a violation of human rights.
When our side does it the person is called a soldier.
When their side does it that person is called a gunman in a soldier's uniform.
(Of course I find it hard calling someone who kills 16 civilians a soldier)
MOSinEURsaid:
Amanda, it is nice that you talked to your father about war, BUT how about really looking into what was done to win the Second World War. We gave no safe haven to old or religious areas. Shoot at us from a church? Well go to Europe and see all the bullet holes in the old churches that have not been filled in. Train yards in the middle of an ancient town? Do you think that stopped any bombing raids? Try to hit the trains, but... Oh, there are civilians in the town? Well, they support their troops killing our troops. We fought to win and win we did. The Survivors have become true believers in NOT starting any wars.
I wanted to go into the Army like my Dad when I was younger.
I would have loved at some point to have gone to Europe and see these things for myself. Really. However, if I tried to get a passport now my name would attract government attention and as a FORMER 'illegal' I was told when they granted me my naturalization papers that if my name came up for any reason in front of them again they would place me back in detention. They may allow me to leave but I am positive I would not be allowed to return.
And I am a firm believer that war, or violence of any kind, should be the LAST resort of anything Just this morning i heard a teen on the public bus say 'I want to fight (kid's name) so bad' and I turned and told them fighting should be the last resort. I wonder if it'll make any difference but at least I tried.
Use absolutely the least amount of force necessary to accomplish your goal, that's what Dad taught me.
That is why I agree with Ritdog when I say that if you are going to go to war, fight the war and do what has to be done to win.
Dad said the same thing after I got in a fight at school with a classmate--violence and fighting should always be the last resort, but if you find you have to, do what you have to to win. And he enrolled me in Kummooyeh classes over my mother's objections that it was not an activity Appropriate For Young Ladies. Years later I stopped a person trying to break into my house using those lessons--resulting in a comedic interlude for the neighborhood cops that night. I have no disagreement with that part of his post.
Deal with the survivors, BUT DESTROY the base and the "cockroaches".
THAT was what I had an issue with--calling people who don't believe the same things you do as a cockroach. People are NOT cockroaches.
Destroy the SYSTEM that perpetuates this non stop conflict
Religious-based radicalism is a system that can't be destroyed, no matter what religion it belongs to. There is ALWAYS going to be someone who believes it okay to kill someone who doesn't believe the same things you do. The only way to even try is to change the mindset of the radical by providing proof to the opposite of the belief. Some may listen, some will not. Its the price we pay as humans for having free will.
By the way, if you are going to write a novel AND you decide to do it about war, go to a war zone for a while.
Erm. No, my writings are fiction.
Quote Joe D.Glenn : "This stuff is war, no innocents involved here. We don't say sorry when we kill taliban nor do they when they kill us."
We are talking about insiders attack here Joe, attacks from afghan soldiers that our troops are training and helping, not fights with the Taliban.
Amanda, this is nothing like asking Native Americans to apologize for killing Custer. The people in Afhganistan are supposed to be on our side. Sitting Bull was NOT on Custer's side. Afghani's are supposed to be working in conjunction with us, not againt us. This is absolutely nothing like the Indian Wras of the 1870's. I'm sorry, I think you are off base with that analoy.
Throughout most of civilization and history this maxim always held true: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
In Islamic countries, such philosophies have no foundation. There it is simply: The friend of my friend is my enemy.
The US Military/Government should apologize for being there, and get out as fast as we can.
Afghanistan has caused nothing but misery for the families/victims of these Soldiers, including so much of our money going on the 12th year of fighting. The Russians were smart, and got the heck out--
The Afghans are not worth a dime; paying them off? for a massacre that occured during a war that we have lost over 4,000 Soldiers? What a mistake.
How will Karzai work this one---it is the most Corrupt, Useless, and ungrateful Country on this earth
Condolences to the families of the NATO Soldiers--Promises are made to be broken. Let's break this one.
So does this mean Britain can request $50,000 per head?
Nope, that will be 50 million Euros, each.
I want to burn the Afgan flag, demand a apology and have Karzi bend over kiss his own a$$.
AE ..... Right on !Ya took the words right out of my mouth !
The Taliban murders Afghans on a daily basis. Al-Qaeda has become increasingly a rallying point for radical Islam. Muslim youth flock to its banner. Al- Qaeda is behind or has inspired almost every murderous terrorist attack in recent years. In Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Syria and other Muslim countries people are murdered on a daily basis in the name of Islam. Al-Qaeda constantly attempts to spread this terror to Russia, the USA, Great Britain and other European countries. They very much want, and feel justified in so doing, to kill anyone that is unwilling to submit to Islam.
They are succeeding in their intention to subdue every other form of belief and to establish their global caliphate; something all Muslims are obliged by Mohammed to work towards; and to impose strict Sharia Law on us all. The future we face is bleak, cruel and violent and it is all eminating from the teachings of one man, Mohammed, with his creed of hate and murder.
The remedy is not to take up the battle within Muslim countries, they are already lost; but here at home, in our cities that have become a safe haven for and a breeding ground for Islamic terror. The remedy is simple: deport Muslims back to Muslim countries. They have forfeited any rights they might have had by their behaviour here. They have openly declared their intention to take over and they will succeed in this through immigration and a higher birth rate. We are becoming an easily defeated minority. Young people are indoctrinated and recruited to die for Islam whilst murdering us. Our society is ever more infiltrated and demoralised as part of this campaign of fear. The tactics are simple; lie, cheat, steal, threaten, mutilate and murder; terrorize us into submission.
Well said.
What we're doing in Afghanistan is just pizzing in the wind. Let's just leave them to what they do best, killing each other, and focus on our own borders at home.
We need to bring our troops home. President Obama and Congress don't care, it's an election year. President Obama has become the Hypocrite in Chief, using his daughters and Trayvon to pretend he cares about children, has compassion.
Why doesn't he care about the sons and daughters of Americans fighting and dying in Afghanistan?
Why doesn't he care about the children of our soldiers doing multiple tours, their families living in despair?
http://www.change.org/petitions/bring-our-troops-home-from-afghanistan
Sign the petition. Send a message to President Obama and Congress, bring our troops home.
Reminds me of the Christian Taliban.
Actually reminds me of almost all organized religious zealots.
Things are not as simple as you state.
The same al-Qaida is supporting Syrian rebels.
But John McCains and Jewish lobby want to arm al-Qaida and Syrian rebels.
They are also finding WMDs in Iran choking oil supplies and oil prices are dancing higher making Saudis, oil companies, lobbyists and themselves richer!
If you don't have a Salaffi and Wahhabi version of mosque in your street, you will have one too. So al-Qaida is right in your street.
That is what Sunni Saudis and co have been doing with high oil prices while keeping us busy doing their dirty works in Iraq.
Till now they could not get WMDs in Iraq despite most modern equipment!!
Two Iraqi wars (1991 and 2003) blunders are too many.
Now it has crossed tolerance limits. There is nothing more to lose to old people, huge unemployed, poor soldiers and their families!
Phillip Smeeton said:
Al-Qaeda constantly attempts to spread this terror to Russia, the USA, Great Britain and other European countries.They very much want, and feel justified in so doing, to kill anyone that is unwilling to submit to Islam...They are succeeding in their intention to subdue every other form of belief and to establish their global caliphate; something all Muslims are obliged by Mohammed to work towards; and to impose strict Sharia Law on us all.
And yet they aren't dropping planes on Tibetan monasteries, not attacking pagans and Australian aboriginals and native Pacific islanders and jungle tribes. They aren't dropping planes on our Native American reservations, not bombing Taiwan and India with their Buddhists and Hindu practitioners. Despite their claim that their religion teaches the to kill 'all infidels' they've left a majority of the world's population alone. If they were truly dedicated to wiping out everyone who is not Muslim, they would have eliminated the easy ones first--Tibetan monks, jungle peoples, etc. The fact that they are NOT bombing these other religions indicates to me that the claim of religion is just a crutch, as Hitler used Christianity as a crutch to wipe out European Jews, and their real animosity has something to the Western World specifically.
The remedy is simple: deport Muslims back to Muslim countries. They have forfeited any rights they might have had by their behaviour here. They have openly declared their intention to take over and they will succeed in this through immigration and a higher birth rate.
Many Muslims in America today are natural-born US citizens so deporting them to a country in which they have never been would violate their due process rights as well as place them in danger of their lives. The majority of them have no intention of taking over and just want to be left alone.
However the government is listening to you in regards to the radical element that espouses violence--with the passage of the NDAA for FY2012, anyone suspected of terrorism against us anywhere in the world can be held by our military until the War On Terror is over. And if they happen to be a US citizen, well, there is a bill called the Enemy Expatriation Act currently coming up through the House that will allow the government to strip citizenship from anyone suspected of terrorism of any kind, from dual citizenship with any country the US doesn't consider an ally to animal activists to religious extremists of all faiths and detain them until the War on Terror is over.
Young people are indoctrinated and recruited to die for Islam whilst murdering us. Our society is ever more infiltrated and demoralised as part of this campaign of fear. The tactics are simple; lie, cheat, steal, threaten, mutilate and murder; terrorize us into submission.
And not that long ago the practitioners said ht about practitioners of my religion. Our youth were recruited to the Christian faith and murdering us pagans (we're what's known as witches.) This campaign f fear demoralized and terrorized half of Europe during the Inquisition, and very few of those that the Church caught were actually witches--most were just marginalized from society and weren't witches at all. They lied about the evils of witchcraft, equating Craft with Satanism (an impression that exists to this day) stole our homes and lands, cut off hands, fingers, heads, mutilated us with burning brands and torture instruments, and terrorized us into submission so completely that when pagans resurfaced as 'Wiccans' the world as a whole believed our worship of the Goddess was hailed as a relatively new religion. And you didn't just do that to Christians; you did the same to the Native American spiritual practices and the Mesoamerican religious belief system (the Inca and the Maya, who were cowed, terrorized and completely subjugated when Spanish Europeans came to Mexico/Central and South America. Don't try to paint the Muslims as having done any differently than you yourselves have done; just as we pagans and Jews first persecuted Christians, we received back what we gave you threefold (the Threefold Law) with the Inquisition and now so are you.
Amanda...you are really uneducated in history. HOW do you think Islam spread? Millions of dead Hindus in India. Buddhists? Are you serious? Do you have any idea the religion that was in Afghanistan or Indonesia? Any idea of what religions were in northern Africa and Spain at the time of the Moslem invasions? Pagan? Any left there? No?
Amanda, you should get off the keyboard and get into history. You claim to be a Pagan? Amanda, it is only in the Western / Christian world where you are protected. Go to the Islamic world and tell them what you believe. At least as a Christian or Jew, you stand a chance, as a Pagan, you are dead. Right then and there. No discussion.
MOSinEur sad:
Amanda...you are really uneducated in history. HOW do you think Islam spread? Millions of dead Hindus in India. Buddhists? Are you serious? Do you have any idea the religion that was in Afghanistan or Indonesia? Any idea of what religions were in northern Africa and Spain at the time of the Moslem invasions? Pagan? Any left there? No?
I wasn't really looking at the whole of history with the initial comment. I wasn't talking about ALL Muslims, even, with the first half of the response. I was talking about Al Quaeda specifically--I had NOT heard of Al Quaeda/Taliban dropping planes on Tibetan monasteries or blowing up Australia aborigines or dropping planes on Brazilian jungle tribesmen. I was referring simply to their history since their rise in the mid 80's. If you have found an instance of such please point me in the direction of the article or news story.
And yes, I have pen pals who are pagans living in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England, Spain, Germany, Norway, China and Russia, even (though they are not obvious about it) And from what I understand of my history classes (admittedly faint) Spain was mostly Christian during the Age of Discovery and the Industrial Revolution. Hence the Inquisition and the spread of Christianity to the MesoAmerican culture.
Go to the Islamic world and tell them what you believe. At least as a Christian or Jew, you stand a chance, as a Pagan, you are dead. Right then and there. No discussion.
And here is the answer that someone who is actually Muslim (not extremist)said:
As a Muslim, I do not have anything against a Wiccan - they are entitled to believe and worship how they wish to. I do not have to agree with their beliefs as I feel (in my opinion they are wrong) however I will not bother or harass anyone of any faith just because they differ in their beliefs. I really wish people would get over what the media portrays Muslims to be. Not all people who call themselves Muslim are violent - the majority of us go out of our way to live peacefully with one another and fit in as best we can in today's society. There are extremists out there that do horrible horrible things, and in my opinion I do not think these people have the right to call themselves Muslims. They are wrong in their actions, and they twist the words of the Qur'an to justify their wrong doing - and I pray that when they die Allah will judge them accordingly to their deeds.
Only the murderous radical sects use the Koran as a pretense for killing. Their agenda is not Islam, it is power and subjegation. They are the same as the so-called Saudi Princes who supposedly follow the teachings in public, but drink and carouse as much as any westerner in private. It's all smoke. The everyday Muslim practices the peaceful, real Islam. They detest those killers who murder in their name as much as we. If we say stupid things like, "we should send them all back to the mideast", we become as bad as the radicals. They come here for peace and to see their famlies thrive as much as anybody else. Our fight is not with Islam, it is with Murderers.
Just further proof that Karzai's government won't be in power 10 days after we leave.
"Our youth were recruited to the Christian faith and murdering us pagans (we're what's known as witches.)"
keep in mind pagans murdered Christians and others in religious ceremonies. Its got a very dark spots in its history as do most religions.. just some have much bigger "spots" than others
Slow down there, hombre. You're paranoia is as distracting as Mike Tyson's tattoo. Have you stepped outside your office in the past, say, year? There's a whole big world out there, birds, sun, it's nice. You'll only see a terrorist if you look in the mirror...
You are the invaders, not the Afghanis. They are resisting your invasion.
In case you didn't know.... (...obviously), Canada is also part of NATO. Has been since 1949. Maybe you ought to think before you post stupid comments.....
We (NATO) may be the invaders as you say, but they (the Taliban) were harboring Al Qaida, known terrorist group who has murdered thousands of people around the world, including the 9/11 attacks on the U.S. What would have been your solution? do nothing? how many attacks were we supposed to sustain without fighting back?
The Afghan (Taliban) government refused to shut down the terrorist training camps and extradite Osama Bin Laden. It should be obvious why NATO is there as "invaders". People who do not understand this are either myopic, conspiracy nuts, or sharia proponents and terrorist sympathisers.
Before OBL was alive..Yes!America had the right to be there.Now that son of a gun is Dead.
Of course the term "Invaders" is appropriate.Why is NATO still there??Its obvious no one cares about their government being strong and suppressing the Taliban regime.What else is there to be achieved.??
Maybe the government likes to play the eye for an eye game at the expense of the lives of the soldiers.
Canada has troops there, too.
The poster that started this comment from Toronto is probably not even a Native Canadian, probably in a safe house up there getting setup to blow up some people. But if he/she is a Native of Canada they need to brush up on their history of what NATO is and who it includes! (new in cyberspace from Toronto....hmmmmm) Think about it?
There are other ways we could have accomplshed our response to Al Qaida and Osama Bin Laden, for one; we could have used the teams in a similar way to the attack last year. We had the intel in 2002 to locate and take out a large number of AQ hierarchy.
However, it is pretty plain in my mind that OBL was already operating out of Western Pakistan. It is also painfully obvious that Pakistan was allowing Al Qaida to operate there. The compound in Abbotobad was built in 2005, though I would be willing to bet Al Qaida was present in that city for a lot longer than that. They would have had to have been there to commission the facility.
I would go further to say that, if Bush had done his homework instead of getting us involved in Iraq, we would have gone into Pakistan instead of Afghanistan. Yes, the Taliban was sheltering OBL, and yes they had power in Afghanistan, but where were most of the operations being planned and controlled? Pakistan.
We have done what we went there to accomplish, Osama Bin Laden is dead. Al Qaida is in Pakistan NOT Afghanistan. If we are to continue operations in the region there is only one place they should be conducted-and we are paying them instead of fighting them.
Well attack the USA and get invaded .. at least we didnt decide to be jerks and just "own it".
Have they ever apologized or paid any of the 70 families for any of the killings they committed? I don't remember reading such a thing. Just another day of helping people try to become what they will never be. We should just leave them to their centuries-old mentallity of killing each other. Pull the troops home and if we suspect a terrorist camp, drop a bomb with no apologies. Cheaper, more to the point, and no NATO troops would be shot senselessly trying to assist back-stabbing cavemen.
This will never stop.
Why not for once JUST leave .
Gee, I wonder what these two or others like them who play dress up were doing during the wee hours of March 11, 2012. It's a lot easier to kill civilians and lay the blame on an American then it is to shoot at NATO troops who fire back. Problem is we never hear of Taliban shootings in villages. Maybe we'll hear about them now since it's become a money paying enterprise.
"Sic Semper Tyrannis". Support our troops. BRING 'EM HOME!
Are we witnessing an "eye for an eye"? Loss of life no matter for any reason is sad event! Still have hope for the country to find its rudder and destiny. So let's get the hell out that rat hole! BO take the lead as the Chief Commander and stop talking about it.
Doubt it. These attacks have been going on for years. Before the troops went in, missionaries and aid group employees were the target.
The term is not invaders it's leberators, thay are just to ignorant to know the diferance let alkida and the tilaban train the afgan loosers. Thay are not worth the loss of american lives.
re:dangler// Please brush up on your grammar.
Haha... you're too ignorant to know how to spell. Before you voice your opinions on a group of people (Especially if you're going to insult them) make sure you don't make yourself look like an idiot.
Nothing ever changes - ever.....We give ALL of these countries millions...In Israels case billions, and for DECADES.....The best friends that money can buy.
I served three tours in Vietnam with the Marines...The big joke used to be. "Whats the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists? " Answer- We don't give money to terrorists!....REALLY???????
And to think we are giving money to the afghans forces, and will still be giving them about $4 billion/year even after NATO leaves. How does that make sense? they have been killing our troops, and we are training them and giving them money? we are training them and paying them for what? kill our troops???
So now they give us money right?
How about this, you kill our people, we burn your book, we kill your people, you burn our flag. Sound fair?
ok you F afghans wheres the money coming from to pay these un soldiers families for there murder, and wheres karzai at saying this cannot go on............. you wont hear that because over there those F sand momkeys wont say it or apologize for anything they do. President Obama GET US THE F OUT OF THAT BACKWORD COUNTRYOF NO RETURN.
A friend of mine said that we should reduce that country to dirt and stone....I laughed at the remark....IT ALREADY IS !
At least the perp is dead.
We cannot free muslims. They are lemmings to their religious leaders. Until we admit MOST muslims are radical or support them, we will not be able to deal with the problem of islam.................
Now its going to go back in forth. It reminds me war between "cute" and in line English army with Americans that had Indian stile of attacking them. The English officer was so appalled by that kind of ambush, he said 'These savages have no understanding how war should be played" .
Over two million Afghans died during Soviet invasion, more then 20.000 Soviets died at war, and about the same number got sick or wounded. Obama doesn't look like stupid President, there has to be something or "someone" that tells him to wait with bringing troops back home......
During world war two when this would happen Russians would round up every mail in town and put a bullet in there head. It did not take to long to end world war two.
They actually shot mail? Weird!
Too early mail / male
Any Apology from Karzai or Obama yet?? Will these two soldier's that got MURDERED get any compensation for their families? I bet NOT. Those people can't be trusted. Get us out now if not sooner.
Just get out, not hard. There's nothing there to gain, there is no goal.
When the folks we are there for kill our guys and we disrespect them plus kill them, why stay? The absolute worse thing we can do is to stay one day more than absolutely necessary. That means leave in 2012 and not 2014.
We need to get out of this backward tribal country NOW. No American should have to die for these bastards. The The Afghan soldiers we are supposed to be training so they can control their own country are the ones killing American and NATO allies. They hate the west, we do not belong there. Mr. President, I do not want any of my tax dollars going to waste in Afghanistan. Get the hell out NOW!
Cosp...Amen! Well stated, get every American out of that dirty, worthless, failed muslim pit now. Not another life, not another dollar...stop all aid today!
Cosp and Jack, this country is comprised of many diff. tribes who live to be at war with each other. They have been practicing such for over 700yrs. They live to fight regardless of the enemy or reason. It is quite Neanderthal. They Love War.