You need to take a long hard look at christianity outside of the US (and that's if you want to ignore the abortion clinic shootings and bombings here).

A broad world view of religion will show that there is plenty of blame for violence to go around.

and you need to not make stuff up.

There have been a handful of attacks by Christians on abortion clinics in the last three decades. There have been TENS OF THOUSANDS of violent, murderous attacks by Muslims in the same time period. So which religion poses the bigger threat?

Good morning, Adam. Excellent post, as always.

stonedog, why try to derail??? The subject is Islamic militants rounded up by the French government. In other words, suspected terrorists in a European country. All religions have a few fruitcakes and there are many groups who do not kill in the name of any religion but Adam is correct here. Enough is enough was a long time ago.

sorry - should say "kill but not in the name of any religion".

Islamic militants, especially Sunni Saudi ones like al-Qaida and different label ones, have beaten all world records!

In telling lies, giving spins, excuses and blames, their supporters with labels like "moderate", "liberal", "secular" and so on have beaten all world records too!

How many 9/11s were there right in the US before?

Most of the religions are reforming with times!

But Saudi varieties of Sunni Islam like Salaffi and Wahhabi, are fast marching towards seventh desert barbaric days!

OK, I'll play. How about you actually read the bible which basically says you should mercilessly murder homosexuals, adulterers, and the alike? You Christians pick and choose what to follow in your religion and criticize other religions who don't. Yes, Christians don't murder anymore, but you can't escape the fact that they did less than 400 years ago and they murdered in the name of people speaking out against the fallacy of your religion and labeled them heretics or witches.

I just absolutely love the fact that you pick and choose now what parts of the bible to follow. You need to accept the fact that Christianity needs to change or die.

This endless bickering about what religion is better needs to f****ng stop, you all are full of it.

Another derail.

How about you actually read the bible

By all means, please do. CHRIST JESUS came to forgive all. Anyone who calls on him can receive Salvation.

400 years ago

It was wrong then and it's wrong now but we're talking about today - 2012.

The "endless bickering" is actually Islamic terrorists and their war against infidels and if you are not Islamic, then that makes you an infidel and fair game. Innocent Jewish children were just murdered because they were Jewish. No other reason.

The best part of the internet... it's a place for small groups of people with retarded beliefs to circle jerk and make themselves feel special.

"hurr durr, God preaches love and acceptance... except Muslims. They are barbarian sand people who hate us because we have freedoms and XBOX 360s!!!"

Why don't you retards argue about this one: The problem isn't Islam or Christianity, it's all Religions. A world without religion would be way better because we wouldn't have small minded lemmings who believe in "make-believe" and magic.

inb4 frothing mad nerds rage on for the next few days

No, you would have a bunch of athiest liberals who believe in "Green" magic...or "hope and change" or.. man-made global warming...or...???

Tim, first of all I'm an atheist. Don't assume that everyone who views Islam as much more dangerous than Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) is a Christian. There are many people of many faiths or no faith at all who clearly recognize Islam to be THE largest threat to world peace and harmony today.

Secondly, let's assume that you're right about Christians picking and choosing what to follow in Christianity. Why don't Muslims do the same with Islam? What is it about Islam that demands such slavish obedience from Muslims to the point where they cannot infuse it with their own conscience and humanity, let alone modernize or reform it?

Thirdly, talking about what Christians may or may not have done in the name of Christianity hundreds of years ago is way off the point. The problem is what Muslims are doing in the name of Islam TODAY.

p.s. hello chefez, good to see you again :)

MPV24: So you are the moderator and we have to follow your directions!

Sir, I am following your order and giving my comments below.

Religion is the opium of masses.

But most of the followers of the Islamic cult are high dosage heroin addicts.

MPV:

The problem isn't Islam or Christianity, it's all Religions.

It's NOT all religions. It's just not. No other religion in the world inspires such murder and mayhem in its name. Not even close. ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM. Do you suppose I enjoy that reality? No, I don't. I wish Islam was not the problem. But wishing reality away because it is unpleasant to face, that's called denial and will only make things worse and lead to even more loss of innocent human lives in the coming years.

My Comment

---------------------

Your Head

.

LOL... thanks for proving my point. Tonite I will go to bed with the satisfaction of pissing off some of the more small minded people in the world. If you cling to this argument like you cling to your small minded view of the world, I am sure this argument will be unsettling to you for weeks to come.

Stay small and irrelevant, nerds.

Chefaz, my point is how much Christianity has evolved, much like it did 750 bc when your religion worshiped 3 God's instead of one. (Please see History of God by Karen Armstrong.) Your religion has changed to whatever is convenient and what suites it's political interests.

You believe the Christ has come to save all but it doesn't change the fact that you are hateful of beliefs contrary to yours and you're doing nothing to benefit society. But, I'm not going to treat you the same way so keep carrying on believing you're doing God's work by chastising others for there beliefs. Hell carry on with another crusade and war.

My feelings about Islam is that they're trying to defend themselves from invasion and misery that we've caused. I can't really blame them for wanting to protect their country. Just let them be and leave them alone. (How's that for a liberal response, Rick?) FYI the majority of Humanists are Voluntaryists. I'm not an Athiest, but thanks.

*Brofists MPV24

I understand how way off Islam is, but let's focus on fixing this country first. I'm sick of hearing this 'One Nation Under God,' porn is evil, no gay marriage, evolution bull crap. We need to evolve and go forward with our lives instead of acting like it's the 1600's. Religion has done enough already with holding rationalism and Science back.

@Tim

Again it seems you are stuck in trying to compare the past with the present. How has Religion holding back rationalism and science. No where do I see my church the Catholic Church holding back science, no where do I see hindus holding back science, no where do I see Jews holding back science, I mean really what the a lot of people here are trying to say is if you look at it and I mean really look at it you would see that Islam holds back science, let me rephrase that it doesn't hold it back it power slams it into the ground and then gives it the people's elbow a couple of times. As a nation we are moving forward, "One Nation Under God.' you are just going to have to suck it up, remember we are a nation ruled by the majority and by what you have written it seems to me that you are one of no faith so that would make you a minority in this nation. Sorry Tim just the facts man. Oh here is my last remark too, the evolution bull crap you are talking about, I ask this to people like yourself a lot, "Where's the missing LINK?" it really gets your gears going in that head of yours when you don't have the answer to it, to really prove man came from apes. Their is no doubt we are very much related but did we truly evolve from them to become what we are today without help, or like you stated earlier without some of that magic?

TRH, I used to be like you and I can kind of understand your points, but I might have to ask you to brush up a little bit on your history... The Catholic Church (which I used to be a part of which is how I know where you're coming from) persecuted people for trying to study Science. Please read this article

so you can understand where I'm coming from.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you Islam is a bad thing, trust me I've been to Saudi Arabia and I know a woman who was executed for fornicating there. My point is religion itself as a whole is a horrible thing and the fact that America is so narrow minded that they can't see it. Just open your eyes a little bit, do research on your own.

Also. for your evolution skepticism... please look at this link,

this is evolution in the making.

Best Regards.

As for that missing link you're speaking of, where is the proof that there is a higher being. There is none so you may as well believe in the flying spaghetti monster. I really urge you to read "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong.

OK apparently you can't post links... Look up the Dates of Drug Discovery and Resistance. It shows how our bodies and bacteria adapts in such little time. I.e Penicillin was made resistant in 3 years.

Also, for proof of Religion holding back Science, look up the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. A list of books that were made illegal by the Catholic Church for 200 years. I'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand since you're ignoring irrefutable science that proves that creationism is false.

@Tim

Tim I'm not saying religions do not have their flaws, I have two deployments to Afghanistan and see what Islam is and does to it's women and people. But the persecution you are talking about from the Catholic Church was done before you, I and many of our previous generations. It's like this, evolution; it seems that the Catholic Church, and many other churches from other religions have evolved and have kept up a good pace keeping up with socity. I do believe it was last year, you know every other year or so the aliens thing comes up, with such fire it's all we here about in the news for months at a time, but anyways the Vatican has an astrology department and they even came out and said that it would be idiotic to not believe that there are other intelligent lifeforms in the universe let alone our own galaxy. I'm not saying evolution didn't happen or exists, I'm just saying from a scientific point of view, every time scientists come out and say something about mans evolution, something else comes out and gives it a doubt. Last year as well this happened. They came out with a report saying that in every couple that has a child today each parent gives anywhere from 300 to 400 mutated genes to the child, which cause for further evolution and differences in the human genetic codes. But in the short amount of time it took man to arrive and become what it has, each parent would have had to give off anywhere from 2000 to 6000 mutated genes to their child or children, they looked at evidence of earlier humans and say that this was not happening that they were giving off the same amount of mutated genes that today humans are giving off.

As I want to continue, I do plenty of research on my on own, I was raised with a military father that has a degree in history and philosophy, so growing up I was told to find my own answers but I would have guidence when I needed it. So the research I would like to bring up to you is, when the United States became the most powerful nation in the world. After World War II, asia and europe were in shambles, they were a mess. This allowed us to build an industrial might the world has never seen before, we created quality products, that the world demanded and loved. We molded the world really into our way, not all the world but the civilized parts. If you look at our population back then an estimated 96% were GOD fearing people. Yes that doesn't mean you are a great, kind, honest person, that is just the numbers. I country flurished, everyone here wanted to be an American and they were proud of it. Even incoming people from other nations, when they got here they held on to their culture and ways of life, but also became an American. You didn't hear any hyphenated americans back then, it was I'm an American and that's it. But see our nations peak was during the Vietnam war, the majority became the silent majority, the minorities became the loud minorities, here you see changes happening, here you start to see hyphenated americans, loud minority groups becoming louder and getting their way, and all this did was create a division amoung our people that we have never seen. You now have all these other religions in our nation that what us to bend over backwards for their beliefs while shielding our own beliefs so we don't offend them (Islam for one; Sharia law they are trying to get allowed so they can use it in our justice departments, kosher foods that they have been and continue to push on store chains and restaurants because it offends them we don't offer anything they can eat.) Atheists hitting harder and harder to get christianity pushed into a corner, you never see them going after Jews, Islam, Hindus, Buddists etc.. There have been a couple of times recently I've seen them put up a billboard like the one in New York I think that was in a big populated muslim area or jewish area, saying the samething about it being a myth and it was removed a couple of days later. But when it happens to a christian area, it won't be removed because it is their freedom to speak their beliefs. The reason why it was removed from the one area is because it would offend someone else that is typically what you think is an American background. You also have the park in California that every year during Christmas there are 24 places that you can put up decorations. Typically 20-22 of these spots are decorated by a christian church there, it's a lottery that you have to go through the city to get, and the city awards who ever wins the spots. Usually the church is the biggest lottery player there to get these spots, but last year an atheist group somehow got 17 of the spots and the church only had 3 spots. Well the atheist group got nasty like they almost always do, with signs and decorations that said things like only kids believe in imaginary friends and magic. Having pictures put up of mythical creatures and one with Jesus asking what they have in common and the answer is they all are a myth. You don't see the Church getting nasty like that. I don't what catholic church you grew up with or continued to attend until you left it, but all the ones I have attended never once told me to get nasty with people that don't believe, never once was I told to try and convert them or make fun of them, or try and make them sound stupid. I was told GOD loves all his children no matter what, even if they do not believe, as lond as they didn't do horrible things GOD would still love them and welcome them with open arms to the biggest afterparty with the top DJs and music up in the sky.

Also your link did not post on your last comment.

Thanks and best regards as well.

For those of you argueing about muslims have done this, christians have done that....while yes, muslims kill in the name of islam, how do you think they see our country - we espouse ourselves to be 'a christian nation' (not my term nor my belief), and who did our President say he talked to before invading Iraq (in case you don't remember, he basically said - I don't need to discuss it with my dad, cause I talked with a higher power), so how do you think the muslims in Iraq or anywhere in the Middle East could see our invasion - yes, as the US invading under the direction of a God. So, since "our" God did not advise our President to not invade, don't you think they could see it as us killing in the name of a God? Shouldn't GWB's God have been smart enough to know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and therefore, should be left alone, but no, GWB's God advised him to attack. See, religion can be twisted a lot of ways.

"We don't want people who have values contrary to those of the Republic being invited on French territory," Sarkozy added."

Better get kick out a few million muslims then!

Tim, there are fanatics in most groups, and especially religious groups. Have Christians killed for their religion? Yes...and so have most other religions.

Christianity, as the largest of the 3 major religions has had it share.

But when was the last time that the religion itself came up to announce the death of non-believers or those who oppose them? You're saying 400yrs ago for the Christians. Ok, I'll buy that.

But right now we are talking about Islam. Who from the leaders of their religion have announced the death of all non-believers (infidels). Of course Muslims are a Peace loving religion and it's people want no violence.

I have news for you. The fanatics have taken over the asylum. The peace loving Majority has no authority over the leadership that is calling for blood.

Oh, please Tim...you're basing your beliefs on a book by an ex-nun that you probably read in high school. I'm not here to get into a debate on Christianity but it would seem that you are which makes what you're doing a DERAIL.

OK, I'll play.

Yes, seems that is exactly what you are doing. You've got a whole lot more reading to do. Soon.

Yes and no. Post Vatican II literature straight up says ignore any Science that disproves God's existence. The evidence is right in front of us that there was no intelligent design and the Church is still unwilling to accept it because it basically nullifies the entire point of them being around.

Chefaz, I'm more than willing to read anything that you suggest. I've read the bible front to back (both the old testament that has 5 authors and missing about the same number of books, and the new testament that was written appx 35-300 years after Jesus was dead,) so I'm not sure what you'd like me to do.

Where to start??? Now ya got me...if you're serious, here are some suggestions...

You should always have a Concordance. Here is a link to one on-line. Me - I'm old fashioned. I like the feel of a book in my hands. You should be able to pick one up at any bookstore and for the size of it, they are actually not that expensive.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/

A Biblical Atlas is also a must. Again, on-line link but since I'm also a fan of maps, prefer a "physical" atlas in my hands.

http://bibleatlas.org/

This may be helpful to you in your quest.

http://www.logos.com/product/2209/the-parallel-aligned-hebrew-aramaic-and-greek-texts-of-jewish-scripture

It is very important to understand "orientalisms" of The WORD. Here is a link regarding that subject and if you will please note, at the bottom of this article, there are references to Bishop Pillai and also the Lamsa Bible. I recommend obtaining works by these authors. Christianity is referred to as a "western" religion probably because of it's popularity in the "western" world. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity is a middle eastern religion with it's beginnings in Judaism. Judaism stands alone. Without Judaism, there is no Christianity.

http://www.absolutebiblestudy.com/Word/Orientalisms_of_the_Bible_(Part_One).htm

Another book from a scientific perspective is "King of the Earth" by Erich Sauer. Out of print but you should be able to obtain it on-line. It was written a while ago so some of the scientific references may be obsolete. (by obsolete, I'm talking 1950's - 60's. Obviously the technology has changed a great deal and it continues to change at a rapid pace.) Since GOD is the creator of science, what many fail to understand is that the two are wholly compatible - not separate.

OK...I've suggested some working tools and some publications for you as a starting point, so to speak. I also suggest finding a Bible study in your area and please...take notes and ask questions. If you are not getting answers, find another study. Since you haven't said where you reside, here is a link to Calvary Chapel equipped with a Church Finder. You only need to disclose a zip code. You should be able to get info on a study in your area.

http://www.ccofministry.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=84&Itemid=106

In addition to this and in keeping on topic, it is always helpful to understand other religions. I posted these links on another article just today. These are links to article written by a great viner, kpr.

http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2012/02/18/10442579-trilogy-of-a-lie-re-submission

http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2012/02/13/10395920-mohammad-the-prophet-of-reformed-arabian-paganism

http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2012/02/10/10371529-suspicious-minds-in-search-of-al-lah-the-islamic-rock-star

Hope this was helpful to you. If not, please let me know.

Come to think of it, here are a few well-known authors. Their writing styles vary a great deal from each other but all will provide good info for you.

http://stephenmillerbooks.com/books/

https://timlahaye.com/

http://brucewilkinson.com/

Chefaz, I gave you references for books I suggest you read about the History of God so why insult me about reading them? And if you're going to be bringing up books from the 50-60's then what about all of those Christian books talking about how evil Science is from that time-period?

Also, yes you can make the argument that God and Science are relative but where is the proof? There is none.

I gave you references for books I suggest you read about the History of God

I never said I didn't read it.

I'm more than willing to read anything that you suggest.

And so I obliged you. Some of what I suggested has critics. There was a reason for this. When looking for the Truth, it's best to look at as much as is available, examine and do the research.

yes you can make the argument that God and Science are relative but where is the proof?

It's out here. If you are truly interested, you will do what I did. Study, question and learn. Judging from what you have written, I was much more of a skeptic than you are when I started. I've looked in corners where I wish I hadn't but it's given me knowledge and understanding.

it was a peaceful religion before we attacked.

Wish I could agree.

I responded to your request in good faith. Have a good night.

Yea!! Because Christian America has never started a War!!

well, i mean... Vietnam doesn't matter. Oh, and Iraq... that doesn't count either.

Actually, come to think about it, the United States isn't a Christian country. That little part about religious freedom means that we are all religions! So those extra wars we started, those were secret Muslim spies who deceived us into going to war!!

Damn those Muslims!!

MPV, you really need to separate what is done in the name of religion from what is done for reasons that have little or nothing to do with religion. Vietnam, for example.

MPV, you really need to separate what is done in the name of religion from what is done for reasons that have little or nothing to do with religion. Vietnam, for example.

A retarded chimpanzee could see that MPV was being absurd and resoundingly childish. It's like a Rorschach Test and you failed.

We all see war because the West provokes it. I really don't understand why it's so hard to grasp that a small group of people attacked the US on 9/11 and all we had to do was go in with vengeance and kill those 250 people that did it and gtfo. Why do we need to invade 2 countries make promises we can't keep and create a huge cluster@!$%# and piss off an entire religion??

Because people think that Al-quida is a huge organization with hundreds of thousands of muslims standing-by with bombs strapped to their chest. They also think that since the Taliban has "ties to Al-quida" we should kill them all.

The funny thing? The US has "ties" to Al-quada. But lets not talk about that. We are God Fearing Patriots and we in America do two things really well:

1. Talk about how we hate the government for everything they do.

2. Then defend everything they do after they tell us "it's okay, we got this".

No, the really funny thing is that we're sending military advisors to Uganda to fight "KONY." So we're basically repeating what we did in the 80's to support the al-queda and Taliban only to bight us in the ass 25 years later.

It's all a ploy to get us pissed off at each other and to get the government more power.

timon, any chimpanzee would see that MPV was pointing toward a real argument in his post. I replied to his implied argument, not the surface dressing that you couldn't see past. Fail.

Tim:

I really don't understand why it's so hard to grasp that a small group of people attacked the US on 9/11

That was only the tip of the iceberg my friend.

Speaking of GW Bush... He actually thought that he was beneffing Islam by trying to bring Democracy to Iraq. A Fool's Errand, yes, as we all know now, but he certainly didn't do it to attack Islam. He even said on numerous occasions what a "noble" and "peaceful" religion Islam is. GW Bush was not very bright. His quixotic "Crusade" in Iraq was a disaster.

timon3y... #1. there is no pass/fail as far as a Rorschach test is concerned. #2. Mentally-challenged primates are no different than mentally-challenged people, other than being mostly of smaller size and hairier, both adapt and move along in life and are still a part of a community who cares for them. #3. Being absurd and childish is part of human nature, as we ALL have 'gone there' from time to time depending on the situation and emotion given. #4. It is true we have 'ties' with the Taliban/Al-qaeda, just ask the Bush family, who have had ties with the Bin Laden family for over 20 years concerning a corporation/Carlyle. The problem American governments have with any 'Islamic group/country' in general is that we keep pitting one against the other by 'inserting' so-called 'friendly rulers,' like re-arranging a chess board, then get pissed off when those same rulers do their own thing, flip the chess board, then sit there and pout. The one thing we should be doing as a country is to NOT be involved politically with the people of those respecting countries. THEY should decide/protest/elect whom they want to direct them towards a different future than they have now, stay the hell out of their business unless atrocities are as such that the people are in dire need of assistance and call out to OTHER countries, not just the military lives, resources and $'s from the Bank of U.S. God blessed ALL, not just America. And to think WE have the gall to tell other countries off for saying what we need to do to better ourselves.

To be honest, yes it was a peaceful religion before we attacked. They were more than willing to support our plans but we completely cluster @!$%#ed the whole operation... I.e not setting up the proper resources such as electricity, water etc. Laying off the entire Iraqi Military only to add the number of homeless after the invasion.

Watch "No end in Sight" it's a great documentary interviewing members of congress and department of defense regarding the invasions.

Are you Iranian by any chance ?

I'm getting better at spotting you guys.

sonar guy...you may want to scroll up to 1.1. that might be a little more probable.

The Devil: You are right on mark here!

By 1991 and 2003 Iraqi wars, Sunni Saudis, Kuwaiti, UAE and other oil rich rulers were saved.

By manipulating high oil prices, they made themselves far richer.

What we got in return: Saudi Sunni extremist Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques all over the world. These mosques are the best of all varieties in hate preaching and killer training.

By the by, Saudis and other oil rich Sunni Arab League members have certified that al-Qaida members supporting Syrian rebels are "good" ones.

Immediately, many US politicians (mostly Republicans and some democrats too), British David Camerons, France Sarkozys are planning how to fully support "good" al-Qaida in Syria.

As oil prices are falling, Saudis and co are feeling the pinch.

They are not able fund more and more of their Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques. So the Iraqi gang war mongers (still intact) are finding WMDs in Iran.

As Pakistan is nearby, the Saudi war gangsters will not fail this time. They will display Paki nukes as Iran's one!

Here either we are nuts or the Syria and Iran scare and war mongers!

I know right; the way they dragged Ben Franklin over there FORCING us to allow them to help us win the Revolutionary War... I never could get over that either. Someone needs to burn that Treaty of Paris and knock down that ugly Statue of Liberty.

Ironic...well stated! Go France! Round up every one of those Christian hating muslim killers who know only one thing; cowardly kill any and all non-believers! Sorry France,but you are now paying the price of letting these muslims defile the beauty of your country.

Wow, by your name I would think maybe you're an illegal yourself are you, can you prove it with your long form birth certificate .... Bet you can't.

Rick-3608408

Wow, by your name I would think maybe you're an illegal yourself

Or he is Jim Sheehan. Might be Irish or something.

Go read a history book about the American Revolutionary War, maybe try to focus in on who was the Revolutionists' ally against English.

Well said! My sentiments exactly and those of the rest of the civilized world.

Nungman, Beware of Iranians on these sites. Cheap, easy and effective way to generate propaganda, and sway public opinion towards their interests.

Click on their sites and read some of their other posts. Sometimes they are all over any subject to do with Iran, Syria, Israel, Palestine, etc. slanted heavily toward Islam, and against the west.

I think some of these guys are actually on Iranian payrolls.

Why can't people worship and practice there own faith, with out harming some one else from another faith?

Most people in most religions TODAY do, Unfortunately, that doesn't hold true for one religion in particular which seems hell bent on domination and supremacy.

Islamisim is a religion that brainwash their followers. They are not allowed to think. They have to follow orders from Muhammad... Remember the Nazis "I was just following orders" If you're not an Islamist you are an infidel, Mother Teresa was an infidel, if she had said something wrong about Muhammad some fanatic would've gladly shoot her. 1.5 billion followers, now that's scary.

Imagine no islam .

Wow someone on the Vine understands the big picture, I thought I would never see the day, thanks Scott!

Scott: Islam still believes in one-way street.

Look at that seventh century Sunni Islamic hell holes, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and others.

Saudi Arabia does not permit either Bible or churches or any non-Muslim religious places.

After manipulating high oil prices and saving themselves surrounded by US soldiers without Bibles, the barbaric and beastly Sunni rulers of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and others funded their Islamic extremist versions of Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques all over the world.

If one has those hate preaching and killer training places, mosques in a place, you don't need any more liabilities. The troubles start from there!

Can you get more ungrateful people and mad religious people on earth? This is 21st century and not some seventh century desert!

LOL ....so very true, He finally gets himself moving on things he promised on his first election, too late for seven of them though.