Americans are stronger than that. This man was weak willed and the protesters are only bent to violence - any excuse to cause distruction so their actions are irrevelvant. This story is only sensational to sell advertising on the page.

That is why we need to take care of each other.

I know an old person with no resources and no government handout.

When I go to the grocery store I take this person with me and buy them the same thing I buy for myself.

I also buy firewood so the person does not have to scavenge for sticks.

Adopt an old person, you will be glad you did.

We aren't owed retirement money...when you pay protection money (extortion/tax) to a mafia (state) you don't get to tell the mafia don (politicians) where to spend it. You may THINK you can, but you'd be wrong. Once they extort (tax) that money from you on the threat of kidnapping (prison) it's no longer your money. Any other view is a nonsense nostalgic fairytale.

Don't rely on the govt to take care of you and this won't be an issue. If they don't pay me, I'll hunt for food. What's happening in Greece is because the spoiled populace thought their mafia was kindly, benign, and beneficial (lol). The disease of dependency infected them so much, they forgot it was a mafia and it was no longer their money.

They have a rude awakening now...and so will we.

The market failure (individuals pursuing rational goals with collective irrational results) of government is not because we were "sold out"...the state never loved you, never owed you anything. It's a mafia, plain and simple. You fell for their brainwashing (nationalism, statism). You saluted the mafia flag, sung the mafia anthem, maybe even fought in mafia wars...but had no clue it was an uncaring mafia who was headed by habitual liars and sociopaths...just like every mafia in history. Your fantasy of the good mafia is just that...a fantasy.

National debt and the results of it are inevitable if you refuse to educate yourself to the alternatives to a state. It's what happens when everyone elects leaders to bring them home goodies, but not enough money is there to pay for it. And there will never be enough to pay for it...because the people always want more goodies. It's a rational pursuit of selfish self interest, which ignores the collective irrational result of the overspending and collapse due to national debt.

Sold out? YOU sold YOU out. We all sold each other out. We kept pretending things get solved by elections of sociopaths and habitual liars. That solves nothing. No one wanted to cut THEIR goodies, but wants to cut everyone else's goodies. Hence, no goodies get cut. You want to extort you neighbors more to pay for it all, but don't want to be extorted yourself. You act as if we could EVER raise enough revenue to cover all the goodies...which is illogical because the people just demand more and more and more...

It's the definition of market failure. It's the definition of ignorance.

There are solutions...abolish the state, end the monopolies the state holds over services like first class mail, roads, schools, fire service police, military, etc.

Don't start in about 'tragedy of the commons', or 'free rider problems'...look up the solutions to them and educate yourself. Don't act like govt doesn't suffer from those problems already! Don't act like coerced monopolies of the government don't lead to predictable outcomes like higher costs for services/goods they provide, worse services/goods, and NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

You whine about accountability...but it's a necessary outcome of all states. They are defined by territorial monopolies, and the lack of accountability is as predictable as carbon dioxide being exhaled after you inhale oxygen. Stop acting like the state is necessary, beneficial, or it's outcomes are a suprise. WAKE UP.

This is why so much of Greece is anarchist...they are waking up. The state is the problem. We need to follow suit. A society based on stateless voluntary order, voluntary association, not tax but donations and payment for a service/good rendered, competition not monopoly, and anarchist legal order is what is better than the eventual drawbacks of market failure of the state.

But I know...someone will dismiss me as "utopian", "unrealistic", "loony"...meanwhile they refuse to look up the answers out there to their reservations and keep parroting the propaganda brainwashing state schools and state school curriculum has drummed into their heads. They 'll keep asserting nonsense like "anarchy is chaos, violence, disorder, lawlessness", when in fact they're describing anomie and fatalism from Durkheim's writings...both of which can result from TOO MUCH government, not just none. And the idea anarchists want NO govt is nonsense...we want voluntary govt, self govt...we want voluntary order, contractual law. But there will be those who are so brainwashed they can't escape the memes the state has planted in their heads. They'll support the state even as it genocides their neighbors.

It's not too late to wake up...it's never too late. If you refuse to wake up, then stop complaining. Your complaints should be focused into the mirror.

Logical, are you possibly forgetting the suicides of Black Friday, 1929?

I disagree, one of the reasons for being that Goldman Sachs is partially responsible for Greece's demise. They profited and in that sense we profited. Check this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/business/global/25swaps.html Our corruptness keeps us and our government going.

Dennis Wheeler-3105004

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT.............and WE (And I do not include myself in this because I know also) as American CITIZENS...not the foreigners or the illegals will feel it....than can leave but wear are we going to go?

^ to any other country in the world free-er than ours. I'm going to Uruguay personally.

We could avoid this just get rid of the stupid tax cuts that were extended, eliminate the coperate and rich man tax loop holes. Also balance the budget! We all know this will not happen due to the bought and paid for politicians of both parties.

Im with the guy that says this man was weak, the world over fights and hungers for the food we as americans throw out every day... Money wasted etc, but this shows that poverty and trouble in any region, religion or race will riot when threatened. Hoping for a better situation here : /

@Logical Voice

Your statement only shows how disconnected you are from reality . Americans are not stronger than that , we just have not fallen as far as Greece yet. As far as violent protests , you may only have to wait to May 1st , to witness a big holiday in all Communist countries , Labor Day , and in the US a planned violent protest by the Administration sponsored , Big Union backed , Activist Trained OWS protestors, bent on the destruction of America as we know it.

Greece Prime Minister Papademo ran on the premise of anti-business, tax the rich, give to the poor, let them retire years earlier than they should and let taxpayers foot the bill. Well, duh...after businesses were chased out, and less people working to pay taxes, there is no more money left...they ran our of other people's money!!!!!! Then the bullies rioted, burned businesses, killed people, and demanded their utopia be restored or they will keep it up....blackmail. This admin is doing the same thing to America...bash capitalism, the job providers, nationalize our businesses...so I would expect it is not long before we are facing the same thing. We still have a chance to recover with our votes in November.

@Dennis

I couldn't agree with you more. Those long time congress members have screwed the Ameican people.

All over the world this is coming to a head...... The 1% have become too greedy and are trying to get rid of the middle class who have done the majority of work, paid the majority in taxes and purchased the majority if goods and services. They theorize workers in poor countries are willing to work for whatever scraps they can get and want that here!

This is the way things were prior to unions fighting for workers right! There were none before unions, there was no minimum age no retirement or health insurance. Your government have allowed the wealthy to get rid of many, many unions and their workers. THAT was the real reason for shipping so many jobs overseas! Did anyone notice a sudden drop in the price of any products, when the US plants closed here and work was sent overseas? No, there was not, in fact the price of everything has kept going up.

The CEOs and executives keep getting paid obscene amounts of money; this comes from cutting jobs, paychecks and benefits of workers. Back when unions were well established, workers were guaranteed fair wages, safe working conditions, and benefits. The 1% have forgotten that providing goods and services depends on having customers, or have they? Why else to you think there was a rash of farm foreclosures with corporations quietly buying them up cheaply? Why do you suppose there are so many foreclosures? It is due to so many losing their jobs and the wealthy will swoop in and purchase homes when the prices drop to rock bottom. Then YOU will dependent on them for jobs, housing, food and health care...

What happens when there is no longer a middle class? The economy and the government collapse....this is when they will step forward and take over. They already have most of the politicians in their pockets... Democrat, Republican, Independents....different labels with the same bosses, they work for the 1%, not you and me! They have also allowed the 1% to steal savings and retirement funds, the money had to go somewhere... and the money to buy politicians had to come from somewhere....... sure a few people went to jail, but the funds were never repaid were they?

We have a choice to make, we can be complacent and let this happen.... or we can step up and demand a change from the government!

I just got back from a trip to Yosemite! Beautiful place, by the way.... put it on your bucket list!

While we were there we saw many signs warning us NOT to feed the animals! Why? Feeding the animals makes them more dependent on handouts and less capable of surviving on their own as nature has intended! Ask any Park Ranger they will be happy to explain this to you!

Sound familiar? Greece and other socialist nations have created a population of dependency and look where they are at! With so many dependent on food stamps, government handouts, etc. why learn to work? why go to work? It's easier to accept freebies to survive rather than work 40 hours at a job you hate! This is the future obama is creating for us in America. We are quickly becoming exactly like Greece, Portugal, Argentina, and other country's that have followed the same path..... 4 more years of Obama and he will succeed in creating a socialist state filled with the same sheep! Create Jobs obama, not dependency!

"It's horrible. We shouldn't have reached this point. The politicians in parliament who brought us here should be punished for this,"

They were the same politicians that the people elected on promises that the wild spending on social programs would never end.

Are the people listening in this country, or do they still think that Obama's wild spending will not have any future consequences. We in the USA are rapidly approaching the debt levels (as a % of the economy - GDP) as Greece.

Greek Debt is currently at 113% of GDP, and their economy is in shambles as a result.

In the United States, our National Debt just passed 100% of GDP, and is rising rapidly.

By way of perspective, the 'Debt Ratio' averaged only 63.81% of GDP under Clinton (1993-2000) and 63.01% under Bush (2001-2008). Yes, it WAS lower under Bush than under Clinton - go figure.

If the rate of spending increases continues under Obama, we will be at the level of Greek Debt (as a % of GDP) within just a few short years.

And Obama keeps saying "We need to spend even more", but we now have the experience of Greece as a guide.

The REAL question is "Will we learn from Greece?", or will we continue to vote for irresponsible politicians who promise more benefits than we can afford?

Hey gang..It it time for the REVOLUTION, yet? What did the Declaration of Independance say..something about throwing off the oppressors.

Mark, do you really believe that garbage you are spewing? Your hatred of Obama is clouding whatever intelligence you may have been born with. Sure, there are many who take advantage of the programs we offer in this country, but an overwhelming majority do not. If the greed wasn't allowed to go unchecked, there wouldn't be as many poor or staving or homeless in this country. America has become a fragile powderkeg. You cannot suppress a populace indefinitely. As more of our "job-providers" ship jobs overseas and offer lower compensation to those employed here, this country cannot heal. Deregulation led us here. Poor leadership led us here. People cannot shop or pay their bills because their (the middle class's) wealth was transferred to the 1%. It really doesn't matter which party is in charge - until companies start paying people fairly, this will only get worse. And those ivory towers will burn.

Bondenesso32,

Did you read the article. Greece did exactly what you want to do. This is the result. We cannot promise the world to everyone. If you want a better life, you have to work hard to achieve it. Or at least have some relative work hard to achieve it. Look at the numbers. We will say that the rich have 5.4 trillion dollars in assets. Divide that by 300,000,000 people and what do you get? About 18,000.00, now you have the $18,000.00 for every man women and child in the country. Well guess what, that only lasts a year.

We are the sheep that made this happen. When I bought my first computer it cost me about $2000.00. I can walk into a store right now and by the same things I bought then for about $500.00. Look at TV's, look at clothes, pots and pans. There is where the price drops are. There are so many things that have actually gotten cheaper or maintained the same price for decades.

Until we as individuals recognize our own actions have caused this there will be no change. I work in sales, I see it all the time. We want it cheaper, we do not care where it is made.

I agree we need a middle class, as time goes on we will see wages and India and China go up. Actually it is already happening. In the end their costs are going to be the same as ours. Well as long as they follow something like our clean air act.

Just think about, do some research. Their are tons of Internet sites that cover different products and their histories.

I listen to the crap the right wing spouts and just can't help wondering where the hell all this crap was when they held the majority in all three houses for 6 straight years and actually had the democrats and independants supporting them with bipartisan votes. They sure as hell didn't care about the economy or social safety nets then. But then again, they were much more interested in creating the wars and hiding the costs of those wars and deregulating laws and creating tax incentives for the rich to really take notice of what they were doing on the social level. Now that their fruit has come to fruition, they simply want to play the blame game for their evil acts and scream how they have better ways instead of actually working in any form of bipartisanship to help repair the train wreck they drove this nation and the world into with their derailing regulations for the oil bigwigs.

"Shame on them. The accomplices responsible for the suffering and despair of the Greek people ... should at least keep quiet in the face of the hideous results of the capitalist crisis and their policies, instead of pretending to be saviors and sensitive," the KKE Communist party said.

This statement alone says alot. Yet the Communist who backed the austerity bailout from the EU is sitting here and blaming Capitalism for the woes of Greece when Greece never had an economy or a government that even closely represented " Free Markets". This is exactly like most of said here coming to America if we continue to travel down this road.

I am already seeing signs of this President's inept ability to lead a Free nation. In the city I live in which is in one of the most liberal states in the Union. There are all sorts of people sleeping on the streets. Men, women, children, this is a shame that this is happening in our Nation. Yet if we continue down this path that Obama has in store for you all. Then watch out what is happening in Greece is only the tip of the iceberg. You want Socialism then go ahead and elect Obama for 4 more years.

You will see worst then this in the USA, the safety nets will be the first things to go when the government has to cut back. Then the flood gates of poverty will be broken and many will be in the streets even myself. Why? Because of the amount of people dependent on Unemployment benefits, Food Stamps, TANF, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid etc. All of these programs will be axed when the government is forced to shut down its operations. You forget the government does not have a endless supply of money. These monies are generated by WORKING PEOPLE who PAY TAXES, not those who collect government monies like Welfare and Food Stamps. These folks don't pay taxes and many of them never have.

What the US is having to spend each year in these monies will be the first to go. The government is affected just like a Corporation when there are no longer monies to meet the needs. Then you have to cut back, plain and simple. Just like most average working class Americans who have household budgets had to make cuts in their own finances through all this. Even our Real Estate is falling in prices.

So if you want more of this go ahead and vote for Obama, and quit your lying about who spent the most in budget over spending. Bush did not even tally up near the 5 Trillion that Obama has tallied up and wants more Stimulus monies to give away to WHO? His cronies? His Czars? Did any of these people feel the effects of the economy. NO THEY DID NOT! Just like the person who called the government a mafia. It did just what any Mafia does. It took care of its own. Screw the working class. Lets make them pay for our way again and again. Its time to quit paying for these idiots mistakes. Vote Out Obama and all incumbents in 2012 lets get a fresh start in our Nation, WE the PEOPLE have the power to take it all back. We just have to be willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do it.

to LogicalVoice... You are completely wrong. Americans are not "stronger" than that. We are no different than the greeks. And neither is our economy. We are going to collapse. And when the money and food are gone and the government is pointing guns at you telling you to keep going about your day as if the money and food arent gone, tell me if you still think we are "stronger than that" You ignorant fool.

to LogicalVoice... You are completely wrong. Americans are not "stronger" than that. We are no different than the greeks. And neither is our economy. We are going to collapse. And when the money and food are gone and the government is pointing guns at you telling you to keep going about your day as if the money and food arent gone, tell me if you still think we are "stronger than that" You ignorant fool.

It is truly amazing how the left can ignore the obvious failures of the Obama presidency! How can you continue to blame Bush for the errors of a neighborhood organizer who clearly wants a nation dependent on big government. 4 more years of Obama and we will be more like Greece and less like what America used to be...! And no, we don't hate Obama, we just recognize he is way out of touch with the real world and has no idea what America really wants or needs.... we want jobs, not food stamps! We want less government intrusion into our lives, not more! We don't need a president who feels he has to apologize for us every time he goes over seas!

Mikala go spout your BS elsewhere. Its not just the Republicans fault that we are here with our national debt skyrocketing. You say lets do what Obama wants to do. If we do what he wants to do. Then you can kiss any form of freedom good bye. There will be only one way and he as shown us that its HIM that is not WORKING with CONGRESS, not CONGRESS not WORKING with him. For your information the Republican Led Congress Under Newt Gingrich's leadership handed President Clinton the Budget Surplus that all your Democrats are so quick to point out that Bush spent. Well Bush did not have a majority in his last 4 years where most of the spending increased under the then Democratically Controlled Congress under your very OWN Queen Nancy Pelosi. So yeah go figure Mikala. You will need alot more than just saying something. You will need to back it.

We aren't owed retirement money...when you pay protection money (extortion/tax) to a mafia (state) you don't get to tell the mafia don (politicians) where to spend it. You may THINK you can, but you'd be wrong. Once they extort (tax) that money from you on the threat of kidnapping (prison) it's no longer your money. Any other view is a nonsense nostalgic fairytale.

Don't rely on the govt to take care of you and this won't be an issue. If they don't pay me, I'll hunt for food. What's happening in Greece is because the spoiled populace thought their mafia was kindly, benign, and beneficial (lol). The disease of dependency infected them so much, they forgot it was a mafia and it was no longer their money.

They have a rude awakening now...and so will we.

Perfectly said. And, if I may- I would like to piggy back on your comment:

To be honest, I along with my wife are scrimping and scraping barely enough to fund OUR retirement, never mind anyone else's, here and ABROAD.

And I'm sick of hearing the great unwashed say: "let the International Monetary Fund help". Well, here's a flash: WE are the International Monetary Fund! WE the United States! We back up 90 plus percent of it's revenue! And why should we here in the U.S. work like dogs fifty hours a week till WE drop just so that these cradle to grave handout loving Europeans can work only four hours a day, take two hour long lunch breaks, work for only twenty years and retire at forty?

Sorry, but these lazy entitlement deadbeats aren't getting any sympathy from me. NO SALE. The cookie jar is empty. The government teet has run dry. Game over. Cry me a river.

The President calls it Social Darwinism. He feels that the Octmom, the Haitian lady with 7 kids, the rich activist law student Fluke and all those people Nancy Pelosi's daughter filmed in N.Y. city should not be left to survive our their own. He believes we should raise taxes and cut defense spending to take care of the people. When we buy an F-35 we own a awesome piece of technology. When we give handouts we perpetuate poverty. Poodlefan evidently lives in Europe. They are toast and she is now left to be a hysterical mess full of rage and venom. That doesn't have to happen to us. We can compete with the emerging markets. The once imperial and now socialist powers of Europe can't.

@ poodlefan007

No, YOU are the STUPID MORON...People that are disabled or handicapped are not on welfare idiot! They are on Social Security and Disability Insurance, that is NOT welfare. And YES I have been to Europe.

This article is talking about GREECE which is a SOCIALIST COUNTRY YOU IGNORANT LEFT WING BRAINWASHED NUTJOB!!!

Why dont you try looking it up you might learn something!

Some on here are being exorbitantly hard on this 77 year-old man for his action. At that age people can fall into depression and, given the corrupt state of affairs in Greece, he probably snapped and gave up. To call him weak-willed and all this garbage is weak in and of itself so back off.

I agree Ticked off in Ohio!!! It is people like poodlefan who are burying their heads in the sand to the mess we are in! The ignorance of the left is appalling!

The United States is in line to get our country foreclosed upon, just like what’s happening to the European countries. The entire banking system is corrupt and rigged and the rating agencies are insignificant. These stalling tactics are running out of steam.

I think most people have figured out that Wall Street is one of the most corrupt and ethically deprived institutions on our planet. I think most people also know the media is bought and sold just like most politicians. We also know that Wall Street is one of many tools of the elite but not the main tool. What is very clear is that our financial system has an architect and carefully designed plan that is playing itself out in Europe.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is very brazen in its fear mongering that we have lost a decade economically. Especially since the IMF has been one of the biggest contributors to perpetuating the instability of the European crisis. The dominoes are beginning to fall in what is an orchestrated attempt by the banksters to consolidate Europe and eventually the rest of the world’s economies under one umbrella that is to be controlled by those that have always controlled currency and money. The most egregious aspect of this contrived extortion is that they are blaming the people who are the backbone of any economy instead of their greedy corrupt political and business leaders.

George Papandreou was pressured to quit because he lapsed into a morally and ethical responsible position by trying to give the people of Greece a say in their economic future through a referendum. This vote would have given the Greek people the choice to stay in the Euro zone and allow their country to be foreclosed upon by the banksters or leave the Euro regain their sovereignty and coin their own currency once again. The IMF bullied the smallest country as a litmus test for what is going to be a much more challenging foreclosure process when it comes to the larger economies. Italy is now in the cross hairs. This dilemma you are watching unfold goes to the core of the rotten apple that is the world’s financial system.

Folks, you are witnessing the death throes of a desperate corrupt financial system where the stock markets and the fractional reserve banking system are at its core. The volatility in the stock markets are a microcosm of the greed, theft and corruption that has perpetrated all aspects of our and other countries economic systems. In the United States, It doesn’t matter who’s in office. Our political system has turned into a two headed one party system with both parties serving their masters, Wall Street and the banksters/Federal Reserve. The stock market is just another ponzi scheme whose intent is to fleece the gullible at the bottom of the pyramid. The stock market is a rogue element of a financial system that is meant to funnel the wealth to the elite/banksters who soicopathically control our financial lives. It is reaching a point where there is nothing more to take from the 99% of the world. The banksters would separate you from your rainy day fund if they could gain access to your shoe box or secret compartment in your purse or wallet. The stock market isn’t the main problem; it’s the fractional reserve banking system that has set the foundation for outright theft. We are experiencing the biggest bank and investment robbery in history and the banks and financial institutions are doing the robbing. When you blame one political party or another they have you right where they want you, in fear, divided and distracted to the theft that is going on right in front of your eyes each and every second of the day.

When you have people on Wall Street day trading and speculating making half a million dollars a year in their twenties betting on people being foreclosed on, you need to ask yourself what is the true purpose of our banking system? At the moment it is largely a theft on the American public. MF Global CEO, ex Goldman Sachs CEO John Corzine knows this and knows that nobody with his connections have served any time for stealing the investor’s money (1.6 billion at last count). The financial system’s main mission should be to allocate capital to areas of greatest growth in the real world economy. Yet they allow all kinds of broker speculation and financial gimmicks such as the derivative markets which are based on non-realistic side bets which are now in the quadrillions. The derivatives market was illegal for most of the 20^th century.

The European banking crisis is a prime example of what is going to happen to all economies associated with stock market fraud and the Federal Reserve banking system. The financial strife in Greece is the model that will befall most countries. Greece is but a symptom of a cancer that has attached itself to the world’s economies. The Federal Reserve (which is neither federal nor a reserve) has been creating money (monopoly money) out of thin air and charging interest on it insuring a debtor economy for anyone who chooses or is forced to get involved with the Federal Reserve and their fractional reserve banking system. That is why this whole European or any countries current debt crisis will never be resolved and will be preyed upon by the stock market vultures. The Federal Reserve System is designed to cause economies to fail.

If someone loans you two dollars to run your economy and expects three back for the loan and interest how are you going to pay the third back? You can’t unless you borrow more dollars which puts you in perpetual debt and in a constant borrowing cycle to pay off the debt. This is designed not accidental.

Here’s the kicker, once the Federal Reserve/banksters have you struggling to pay off your interest, they send in their loan sharks the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The IMF will loan you money to cover your ever burdening interest payments but they attach a provision that if you default, you will have to give them your assets in what they call privatization (foreclosure).

Since the interest is exponential, you will default and the banksters will come in and try to foreclose on your country, like Greece. They are being told to sell off their own country to pay back the people who caused the mess to begin with. This allows the elite to steal your intrinsic valuable assets because they gave you paper (loans/debt) and the interest on the debt that is systematically impossible to pay back. This also allows the parasitic stock speculators to profit from this designed theft. They not only know the outcome of an economy, they can gamble on the economic bubbles at the investor’s expense. This cancer goes all the way down the food chain.

In the United States case, it doesn’t have to be that way. In our constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, it stipulates that we can “coin money” as a nation and avoid the Federal Reserve’s interest (fee charged on loans) black hole.

The Federal Reserve has a 100 year charter and it is up in 2013. We have to stop these banksters from gaining an extension by our corrupt paid off politicians. If we can stop the extension, our income taxes will drop dramatically! End the Fed!

So don’t be fooled that the Europeans have come to grips with their financial debt, it’s impossible, it’s a designed virus that has spread around the globe. The Europeans are now replacing their leaders with technocrats/ex Goldman Sachs banksters. These people haven’t been elected by anybody. The stock market vultures will continue to contrive “financial instruments” (credit default swaps/credit derivatives) to defraud the people of the world.

Banks, Central banks, World Bank, BIS, IMF = Federal Reserve = Debtor economies, Debtor Nations (economic slaves) and carrion for the stock market derivative heist.

Greece should tell their debtors to go f**k themselves.

The debtors should kick Greece out of the EU, in which in never belonged.

Anybody (meaning banks) who don't get paid back get to learn the lesson of not lending money to people who can't pay it back. After all it wasn't like someone stole it from them. They willfully lent it.

Everybody is fine. Greece becomes a tourist nation. The EU stops worrying about getting money back that they literally can't. Done.

I don't understand how right extremists can say "People deserve to get kicked out of their home because they promised to pay the bank" but when it comes to a government paying people retirement and benefits they earned threw working, paid into, and was promised to them..... oh all of a sudden people are socialist for expecting to government to pay whats was promised to them.... hypocrisy is the heart of the extremist conservative party.... Like here in America is the defenseless and elderly that will pay for the mistakes of the powerful and wealthy that exploit and destroy the economy.

TrustVerify,

I couldn't of said better. You are absolutely right and the first Bank that began this mess was called "The Red Shield"The then House of Rothschild. Go look it up, they control the banks of the world. Always have and always will. They are bending the nations to their will.

@ Ticked off in ohio

your ignorance is showing Greese is a capitalist two -party democratic country much like ours... socialist countries don't have political parties and generally don't have open debates on how to solve problems.

so who is the ignorant (insert side here) wing brainwashed nut job?

why don't you try looking something up and learn something?

It is sad because the people suffering are the ones that worked hard and were depending on their pensions. It seems like the Unions have bankrupted the country so not only their interest can't be met but also the obligations of the past. Its the nature of the beast, they keep taking and taking and finally no money.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2012/03/18/note-to-krugman-greece-proves-keynesian-economics-wrong/

mikela "I listen to the crap the right wing spouts and just can't help wondering where the hell all this crap was when they held the majority in all three houses for 6 straight years and actually had the democrats and independants supporting them with bipartisan votes."

Actually, the Republicans only controlled Congress and the Presidency for 4 straight years (2002-2006), so let's see how they did in those 4 years;

The economy grew by 25.4%, or 6.35% per year.

A net of 5,745,000 jobs were added (1.44 Million jobs per year).

Deficits averaged only about $300 Billion per year.

Let's contrast that with the recent two years where the Democrats were in control (2009-2010);

The economy grew by 0.8%, or 0.4% per year.

A net of 6,916,000 jobs were LOST (3.45 Million jobs lost per year).

Deficits averaged $1,353 Billion per year.

You were saying....................?

The sources for the above figures are the Obama White House for economic growth and deficits, and the official government Bureau of Labor Statistics for average jobs by year, not some biased blog with a 'spin'.

@blondeness032

All over the world this is coming to a head...... The 1% have become too greedy and are trying to get rid of the middle class who have done the majority of work,...

I'm sure what you meant to say was "Polly want a cracker?". This idea that the "1%" want to destroy the middle class is so friggin ridiculous that I can't believe anyone is actually stupid enough to believe it. First off most of them are small business owners who rely on the middle class do "the majority of the work". You think they want to destroy their workforce? And second, they all rely on the middle class to buy the services or products that they provide. Basically the "rich" make their money when the middle class spends theirs. So you really believe the "rich" want to destroy their source of income and revenue? You really believe they want to essentially shoot themselves in the foot, or more aptly, both feet and both arms? That somehow makes sense to you? Really? Maybe take the blinders off, stop listening to the BS rhetoric and do some thinking for yourself.

Derek-381097

Greece should tell their debtors to go f**k themselves.

The debtors should kick Greece out of the EU, in which in never belonged.

Anybody (meaning banks) who don't get paid back get to learn the lesson of not lending money to people who can't pay it back. After all it wasn't like someone stole it from them. They willfully lent it.

Everybody is fine. Greece becomes a tourist nation. The EU stops worrying about getting money back that they literally can't. Done.

Now how, exactly is that going to work out? If Greece does as you say, there will be several issues. First, they will have to have a currency that everyone else accepts that is worth something on the world stage since they import EVERYTHING except Olives, Ouzo, and Feta Cheese. The new Drachma, after their bankruptcy declaration will be worth less than a single sheet of Charmine. The only thing the government can do at that point is to print money with both hands and hyper inflation like that in Zimbabwe takes over. Then you WILL have riots in the streets.

Next, investors will become unwilling to buy any sovereign debt because of what Greece did. There goes Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, and Japan. That will cause the banking systems in France, Switzerland, and even Germany to go "Tango Uniform". Then you will have half of Europe flat broke and mad as hell at the other half that "Caused" their problems ("No, we couldn't have done this to ourselves.; it wasn't our fault"). I think I've seen that movie before. If I remember correctly, the ending didn't turn out too well for about 50 Million people. Look up the Wiemar Republic if you want to see what happens. And, by the way, we in the US are headed down the same dead in end road.

What is that magic number where the debt is some percentage higher than the GDP that triggers Hyper-inflation? Is it 130% (like Greece) or 150%; I don't know, but we are over 100% right now with no end in site. Eventually, the FED will hold a debt auction and no one will come; then what? The only thing left to governments at that point is to print money with both hands. Then we will get to see what the Wiemar Republic of the 1930's looked like.

By the way, you do know that we have raised several generations of people that believe corn grows in a "Green Giant Can"; right? How many people do you know that can fix their own cars or house, grow their own food, hunt for and butcher their own meat? We have created a society that is dependent on he government's stipend. What will happen if they don't get it, it isn't enough, or the food stores close? Do you think these people will just sit on the corner and cry or will they turn into an Athens style mob complete with Torches, Pitchforks, and a .45 Colt for everyone ? That won't be pretty.

When people can't feed their kids, and it takes a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread, normally sane and rational people will start doing some really friggin' crazy things. It has been my experience that civilization is a veneer that we CHOOSE to wear. If you place people into the right (or wrong) situations and apply enough pressure, most of us will both quickly and cheerfully strip it off faster than the dancer at a nudie bar. Necessity, Hunger, and Survival are the most ruthless of our natural instincts and it won't take much for us to revert to the animals from whens we came. We will do whatever it takes to survive.

I served with the 3rd Marines in Quang Tri and Thua Thien provinces of Vietnam and have looked the 2nd horseman in the eyes before. I can promise you that you don't want to even consider going there. It has been almost 45 years since I acted in that "movie" and I am in no hurry to see a screening of anything close to it ever again.

Once again Thank you Roy Wilson for the facts, too many depend on the left leaning media for their information which is spun to their favor. The problem with Liberals is when you actually quote facts they will attack you as either a racist or some right wing nut job. Which my question is what is a right wing nut job? When did it become a crime to believe that our government should operate it's budget like all is ordinary Americans. When did it become a crime to be a person of Faith who has a believe in God, The Bible, Jesus Christ as their savior, marriage is between a man and a woman. When did morals become evil. Just wondering when this all changed. Oh yeah when you libs took control. What you hate you do. You label people just like you say " We right wing nut jobs do". When you can't win an argument you go on the attack. Resort to blame placing and name calling. hmm!

And Chris thank you for your service and Welcome Home! I know you never heard those words before. I too hope that we don't have to play that movie over again.

@MireV03

your ignorance is showing Greese is a capitalist two -party democratic country much like ours... socialist countries don't have political parties and generally don't have open debates on how to solve problems.

It's called social democracy, the great (failed) European experiment that Obama and the dems are trying to bring here. The fact that it is shown to be a near utter failure is no deterrent for them because like any good (i.e. arrogant) central planner they believe they can "fix" a system that no rational person believes is workable.

It's what they get for listening to their corrupt politicians and joining the common market. Now the banks control their economy and it will be very hard to get out of the mess. England fomented the Euro, convinced every European nation to join but when it was their turn they did not. They knew what they were doing. Soon it will be our turn. We were betrayed by Bush and fooled by Obama. In the next election we are going to stick it to ourselves again, no matter who we elect.

The right wing folks on this board have a very short memory.

They love to quote numbers indicating that welfare receipients under Obama have "skyrocketed" while not acknowledging that the economy he was left from THEIR REPRESENTATIVE was in shambles. The worst its been since the great depression. Somehow whenever they spout off about how bad its been they fail to acknowledge how we got here.

Every reasonable economist (left and right of center) agrees that when private sector spending slows in a recession that the best way to try to kick-start the economy is for the public sector (read government local state or federal et al.) to pick up that spending slack. Its a known economic reality. Republicans want to use the economic turmoil (that started under their watch btw) to say we should starve the beast using cute catch phrases like: "We don't have a revenue problem". We that's a load of BS. We have a very significant revenue problem as evidenced by the fact that our governmental revenue is at its lowest levels in almost 50 years. Thats an issue since our spending has been built around the revenues as they've been before the economy hit a wall.

Basically when it boils down the neocons in our country would rather use the money collected by the government to spend it on killing folks overseas and building up our already bloated (100x everyone else's) military to reward their friends in that industry rather than support those less fortunate in our country with their living expenses. So it comes down to a question: do you believe we should be buying planes to kill foreigners or food for the less fortunate segment in our population? That should decide who you should vote for.

@Backcountry164

it's called social democracy, the great (failed) European experiment that Obama and the dems are trying to bring here.

Thanks I was just going to reply almost word for word! ;)

basedrum777 - agreed that public spending in a recession is a great way to kick start the economy. As long as the money spent gets into the hands of the public so it can be recirculated into the economy. That has not happend under Obama where he has givien billions to banks and auto comapanies that have just given huge bonuses and stashed away the funds. Only a small portion of the stimulus money spent went to infrastructure projects. Most went to rich supporters who gave to his campaign.

Retroactive bribary is no way to run a government.

Canon,

I don't disagree that spending could be done in a different way to try to help the economy differently. I would like to point out however that your assertion that Obama "gave" money to banks is incorrect. The bank (financial services) bailout happened under the prior president. To assert that Obama drove that decision (which so many do regularly) is not true. He voted for it as most did in Congress but I think my point was more to the idea that blaming Obama for spending money to try to sustain the values that drive our economy is short sited and skewed. Additionally it has been proven that giving a large refund check (like the $800 check under President Bush) did very very little to help the economy as it was saved by most folks. Additionally I would like to point out that even though tax rates were lowered to their current levels which is much much lower than before President Bush, we still are in the biggest recession ever. That is pretty good impericle evidence that tax rates generally do not drive spending on a macro level. I work in taxes at the largest accounting firm in the world. We have a saying: "the tail doesn't wag the dog", which means that taxes do not drive business decisions alone.

basedrum777

Every reasonable economist (left and right of center) agrees that when private sector spending slows in a recession that the best way to try to kick-start the economy is for the public sector (read government local state or federal et al.) to pick up that spending slack. Its a known economic reality.

The only problem with the Keynesian Economic model is that there is no provision to pay the borrowed ahead money back after the crisis is over. That is why we have a $16 trillion Debt, and every country that has followed the same model is is the same boat. I have no problem with government propping up the economy in the bad times, but when the crisis is over, they need to pay back what they borrowed from the future.

The biggest problem is that it is not in the best interest of the self serving politicians to ever pay back what they borrowed. They can use this money to come down to the voters and say "Look at all these wonderful things I got yo, and they didn't cost you anything." I hate to break it to you, but it cost somebody something; either today or down the road.

I see many people here claim that we don't have a spending problem but rather a revenue problem. I counter that argument with the question, "How do you get government to live within it's means"? Our elected officials have, for the past 50+ years, spent like a drunk sailor in a whorehouse. My contention is that, until we get control of congress, we will never be able to balance the books. No matter what I give them today, they will spend it, borrow more from tomorrow, and come back crying for more next week. I am sure that, were I were able to write them a check today for the entire amount of the Deficit, Debt, and all under funded liabilities, in under 20 years, we would be right back where we are today because there is no responsibility or accountability in Washington.
.

Chris-382117: Yep, cant say it any better.

Chris,

I would tend to agree with you on some points. The "drunken sailor" is a good analogy and I would probably say (this is probably a big deal in your life per your avatar) that the majority of the "wasted" money in many people's minds is spent on Defense. We spend multiples of everyone else in the world and we probably still spend more than the rest of the world combined. I would say we'd save quite a bit if we scaled back the fact that so many of the "government" employees that we have are fighting. This is not to imply that I don't respect the fact that we need to defend ourselves or in any way downplay the awesome job our miltary is doing/has done. But at some point we need to, as you say, live within our means. I also would directly support rolling back ALL of the bush tax cuts so that most of America has some skin in the game. I would caution however that much of the reason why people are more likely to fall into that "we don't pay taxes" group is because they make less (read: underemployed or unemployed) than they did when they last looked at those values.

So I ask you this: if you are looking to cut back on spending that is out of control in America (during a recession) would you look to cut our abundance of spending in the military and look at rolling back tax cuts that we quite obviously can not afford?

ROY WILSON-336103

I'm not sure exactly sure where those milions of jobs went that the republicans supposedly created. I do know that in 2006 they sure weren't being created in my state. While Mr. Bush was telling the country how great the economy was doing, the price of gasoline was already at more than 3$ a gallon for low grade here. People were already losing their jobs as their employers were going out of business because of transportation costs. Home owners were already losing their homes because although they had been living on strings for many years, they could no longer afford to pay their mortgages and pay three times as much for gasoline to get to and from their jobs. The tourists industry was in ruins as tourists no longer could afford to take their vacations. And President Bush would be another year at least before he finally would admit that the country was heading towards a recession that it had already been in for at least two years before his admittance. No things were not good for the country in 2006 and they were simply going downhill fast long before 2008. The costs of the two wars as well as many other military expenditure approvals were never entered into your data and your data may have been exact in 2002 but dividing it into the 2005-2006 yearendings just didn't quite produce the true economic picture of 2006.

The people are just as bad as the government they blame. Every year I watched referendum after referendum get voted for and passed across the state. 550 million for this, a billion for that. I would read long lists of these bills for voters to vote on. I always checked yes for schools, police departments and fire departments but voted no across the board on everything else. The people would unanymously vote these high expenditures into the budget even though there wasn't any money in the budget to begin with. In the end they blame the government for the state deficit. I only blame the state in that they should never have allowed a referendum vote on any expenditure without there being a surplus there to cover the costs if the bills were voted in by the people. The voters shared just as great a blame as the people that sponsored the bills to begin with.

basedrum777

So I ask you this: if you are looking to cut back on spending that is out of control in America (during a recession) would you look to cut our abundance of spending in the military and look at rolling back tax cuts that we quite obviously can not afford?

Absolutely. I did not agree with Dr. Paul on many things, but I did agree with his concept that it is not our job to be the world's cop or pay countries to be our friends. I, having served with the 3rd Marines in Vietnam believe that American blood is the most precious commodity in the universe. It should not be wasted to prop up petty dictators or government that are financially important to us. the problem I see is that congress refuses to pay attention to the fact that it isn't their money and there is not an endless supply. They have used the public treasury for the past 50+ years as a slush fund fro re-election or supporting their contributors (corporations, lobbyist, special interest, contributors). no matter how much we give them, they will just spend it and ask for even more.

@basedrum777

The right wing folks on this board have a very short memory.

They love to quote numbers indicating that welfare receipients under Obama have "skyrocketed" while not acknowledging that the economy he was left from THEIR REPRESENTATIVE was in shambles. The worst its been since the great depression. Somehow whenever they spout off about how bad its been they fail to acknowledge how we got here.

I suppose you'd like them to also acknowledge that Nixon left the Office in disgrace and Harding's Teapot Dome scandal.

The left wing folks here on NewsVine have spent the last 3 years living in the past in order to avoid any discussion regarding the utter failure of THEIR REPRESENTATIVE and the fact that he has presided over the worst recovery from a recession since the Great Depression.

Sure you can blame Bush for digging the hole, I do. But if you are going to do that and you want to be honest you've also got to acknowledge that Obama has done nothing other than dig it deeper. Bush spent money like he could print it, and that's exactly what he did. Obama has followed suit. Bush increased the debt by nearly 90% adding 4.8 trillion in just 8 years. Obama has nearly matched that in just over 3.

Stop living in the past and take a look at what is happening NOW.

So it comes down to a question: do you believe we should be buying planes to kill foreigners or food for the less fortunate segment in our population? That should decide who you should vote

We spend way, way too much money on our military, that's a given. But it is still less than half of what we spend providing for the "less fortunate in our population". Defense will never be cut to zero nor should it, but even major cuts would amount to little more than a drop in the bucket if you're just going to turn around and give the money to someone else. Taking from the military in order to give it to the "less fortunate" is obviously not going to solve any of our problems. The reality is that the "less fortunate" are going to have to tighten their belts (i.e. entitlement reform) right along with the military (i.e. massive reduction) if we have any real hope.

@mikela

While Mr. Bush was telling the country how great the economy was doing, the price of gasoline was already at more than 3$ a gallon for low grade here. People were already losing their jobs as their employers were going out of business because of transportation costs. Home owners were already losing their homes because although they had been living on strings for many years, they could no longer afford to pay their mortgages and pay three times as much for gasoline to get to and from their jobs. The tourists industry was in ruins as tourists no longer could afford to take their vacations

Gas hit $3 in November of '07 and dropped back below it by Oct of '08. If people we're losing their homes and businesses were closing there was obviously more to it than an one year spike in gas prices.

basedrum777

The "drunken sailor" is a good analogy and I would probably say (this is probably a big deal in your life per your avatar) that the majority of the "wasted" money in many people's minds is spent on Defense.

Actually, the term has nothing to do with the armed forces. The term "Spending like a drunk sailor in a whorehouse" comes from the late 1800's and Maritime sailors, particularly in the port of New Orleans.

When sailors got off the ship after being at sea for a month or two, the first place they went was to Storyville (the Red light District of New Orleans 1890-1920). some of the more ill-reputed brothels would "Give them a Drink while they were waiting" but it was usually laced with an opiate (19th Century Rufie). They would then have all of their money stolen and if lucky, just carted down to the end of Basin or North Roberson streets and tossed into an alley. (If they weren't lucky, they were killed or tossed unconscious into the river to drown.)

If one of these sailors made it back to the docks broke and groggy after being robbed and drugged, the authorities just dismissed his complaint saying "He had just spent all his money like any other drunk sailor in a whorehouse."

That is where the term comes from just as an FYI.

And look at how well over-regulation worked for Germany in the 1940's.

If Greece had followed EU regulations in the first place, it wouldn't be in the mess it is in now. It lied for years about its compliance with EU regs.

The EU doesn't require free healthcare nor retirement at 50.

Not really. I view this entirly as a failure of supply-side economic theory. Autisary is NEVER the right answer during an economic recession, but thats exactly what the Eurozone did. With unemloyment rising, the economy over there simply has no mechanism for growing again, as consumer spending continues to drop.

Fact is, early retirement can work fine, PROVIDING there is enough continued economic activity to offset any increase in debt. Problem is, greeks [as well as italians] are infamous for not paying taxes, leading to debt rising faster then GDP. Problem is, when you start pulling programs to lower the debt, you get rising unemployment, which again lowers economic growth and making the debt larger again. Its a no-win economic situation.

Obama [and yes, Bush] did the right thing: Focus on the recession first before addressing the long-term debt problem. When you look at the GOP budget, its clear they want to go down the same path as Europe, and it should be clear that doesn't work. Without demand, there is no economic growth.

Country is going down the tubes at record pace, but by God, they can find the money to pay Bernie Ecclestone for the Formula 1 races there. Who's priorities are they protecting? The People or Business?

Can't wait till the Sh!t hits the fan, here in the US. I'm gonna watch half the country burn down. No one riots like the US! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIlIL5pPFmY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL85542371456909D1

Durkheim said it best...too little regulation leads to anomie (lawlessness, chaos, violence, lack of social norms)...the same results from too many regulations. Fatalism (suicide) also happens when too much regulation occurs.

Hence why anarchism (contractual legal order) is preferable to statist regulation, which either codifies crime to the highest bidder or over-regulates (as it did in Greece and the rest of the EU; and the USA).

One of the main reasons why there was an economic collapse was because the rich people did not pay taxes. They lied about their incomes too. Check this article: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-12-31/world/greece.taxes_1_income-taxes-greek-press-tax-evasion?_s=PM:WORLD. They have two major problems, their retirement age was too early 55 with full benefits, and that their rich did not pay taxes.

gamerk2,

I believe you are partially correct. Demand has always been the primary driver of an economy. Therefore, supply-side economics is a valid approach if and only if it creates demand. The lack of demand that is responsible for the state of the economy today is due to the actions of the Federal government, and happened in four stages:

(1) The first, most important, and least discussed step was taken when the Federal government decided, in the interests of interstate commerce, that credit card companies did not have to comply with state usury laws. Responsible credit card holders who could make their payments under the old interest rates began to struggle with the increased payments. The money that the banks garnered in interest no longer could be used to buy tangible goods.

(2) The housing crisis occurred because banks loaned money to people who couldn't keep up the payments. The whys and wherefores of this have been discussed to death, but the result was less money in circulation.

(3) The bankers were smart enough to realize that the subprime mortgage market was a loser, so they bundled these dogs into derivatives. The bubble burst when ratings companies finally threw up their hands and said, "We don't know what these are worth." At that point, investors stopped buying them, which the bankers weren't smart enough to foresee. When the SEC told the bankers to either sell them or write them off (since they couldn't put a value on them), the banks were faced with huge losses.

(4) The Federal government bailed out the banks instead of letting them fail. They would have been better off using the bail-out money to make the depositors whole after the failure.

YOU don't pay any taxes Phenomenal. People like you disgust me. All you do is complain others are not paying for what you want. Did you know NO ONE PAID INCOME TAXES until 1913? So don't give me that crap that rich people, who are only 10% of the population, do not now pay taxes when they are now paying 70% of taxes. Stupidity and laziness is the real problem. Get an education and then get a freaking job you FREELOADER. And I do not care if you get all the "stuff" you want. WORK FOR IT or SHUT UP. I don't have a house, drive a 13 year old car, WORK EVERYDAY, and am 56 years old so don't give me that "you are rich" garbage either.

One of the main reasons why there was an economic collapse was because the rich people did not pay taxes.

Nonsense. Do the math, stop listening tp pundit idiots. If you taxed the top 10% of the country for 100% of their actual incomes you still couldn't close the budget deficit...not even half of it.

So there went that nonsense assertion.

BTW, more extortion (tax) never made any society more ethical or sound finanically. No amount of revenue is ever enough, the people always want more and more and more. Since that's how the politicians get re-elected, that's how market failure occurs (market failure = individual rational goals leading to collectively irrational outcomes; ie, national debt).

someonelse...13 year old car, age 56 retired, no house...I'd say you are just plain dumb! I am 74 retired with a 4 year old car, own my home and money in the bank. I am also not rich but I used my head. Sounds to you better un retire and get a job.

@Really?-1739510,

"Obama focused on healthcare first.

We're still waiting for him to focus on the economy"

We're still waiting on healthcare as well, something that Obamacare didn't even actually do.

Wow, what a joke. You that is. And your complete lack of understanding of how international banking and the euro zone actually work.

@joe32

See? No regulations are a good thing. Look how well it worked for Greece.

Joe, why don't you go ahead and show us all an example of one, just ONE, politician who supports the idea that there should be NO regulation. And if you can't, please keep the BS to yourself.

YOU don't pay any taxes Phenomenal. People like you disgust me. All you do is complain others are not paying for what you want. Did you know NO ONE PAID INCOME TAXES until 1913? So don't give me that crap that rich people, who are only 10% of the population, do not now pay taxes when they are now paying 70% of taxes. Stupidity and laziness is the real problem. Get an education and then get a freaking job you FREELOADER. And I do not care if you get all the "stuff" you want. WORK FOR IT or SHUT UP. I don't have a house, drive a 13 year old car, WORK EVERYDAY, and am 56 years old so don't give me that "you are rich" garbage either.

Haha I don't pay taxes, I am 23 and I pay 25% taxes. I have a college degree and a carreer in the computer field. If I the young guy is going to pay 25% in taxes, Mr. Romney better pay up the same instead of getting tax breaks for having investments. Did you check Romneys tax returns? He pays 14% I will be satisfied when he pay the same amount of taxes as me or lower my taxes to 14% same as his. I don't care if it goes to the poor or not. I don't have a home, I rent. But I do have a year 2007 model car. I bought it with my own money. I even have healthcare. No body paid for anything for me, my parents helped with college tution. Stop assuming everyone is lazy and do not earn everything. I just want fair taxing, and I know that the system is not fair to everyone specially those with a slow start.

I don't see where the banks are at fault here. Greece's problems are because it has no business being in the Euro zone. The cheap borrowing rates were great, but the Greek economy isn't efficient enough to compete with Germany and France when it has to use the same currency.

It's all about the state, not banks. Who created the monopoly on currency and interest rates? The state. No state, no banking monopoly and no corporate personhood.

Barry-NJ...spoken like a banker.

Well said Henry Limpet. Barry... you are an idiot. Bank are the problem. The sooner people can figure out that private corporations (who are ALWAYS out to make money because that is what a private corporation does) should not be in control of the money supply. The sooner the worlds economies will stop collapsing all at once. Figure it out people, please, or we are screwed...

Markrod ... please explain exactly what the banks did that lead to Greece's problems? I explained my logic. Calling someone else an "idiot" is not an explanation.

I'm not defending the banks. In many instances, their actions have been inexcusable. I'd even be in favor of breaking them up. Most of them have forfeited the right to exist.

But, the main problem facing Greece (and the other members of the "PIGS" group) is that they had no business being part of the same currency union as Germany and France. The Euro, relative to their productivity, is overvalued for these countries and their exports become uncompetitive. Without control of their own currencies, they have no means of dealing with the problem.

Stole? The debt is due to handouts to those people...blame nationalism, statism, and selfish self interest of the people that lead to collective irrational results (market failure).

Most of the money in this country is spent on military contracts as job "creation" handouts to certain districts, welfare (inclusinf Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.), and bereaucracy monopolies that could be allowed competition to lower costs, increase quality, and allow accountability.

Blame the mirror. All of us need to. The state is BS. It's always doomed to fail. It's a false idol. Stop sacrificing yourselves on it's altar, and wake up. Embrace anarchist legal order. Embrace panarchism, and panarchist synthesis.

wealthy doesn't need all this money....What cracks me up you have people thats say if you work have you get to keep it..How about the average joe that works all their lives and then has to live like a peasent...

First off, you don't care about property rights...that's sociopathic. Secondly, how does the poor and middle classes' total compensation (wages+benefits accounted for inflation) rise?

Oh...you don'y know, obviously.

It's a simple process. Wealth is accumulated, then spent on producitvity increasing technology to maximize profits and labor efficiency in the process of production, then as productivity rises so does total compensation per worker, then marginal utility is decreased in capital which spurs consumption, which leads to higher profits and more accumulated capital...and the process repeats over and over making the poor and middle class less poor. That's why our "poor" have cell phones, cable TV, food, clothes, homes, long lifespans, indoor plumbing, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, etc...and other nations without capital accumulation have swollen malnutritioned bellies and flies on their eyes.

So stop acting like you understand economics...you clearly have no clue what you're talking about and take your understanding of classical and neoclassical nonsense. Malthusian myths won't make you and better off...it'll make us all equally poor.

If you think we should extort (tax) people more instead of you and everyone else just keeping what they earn, then I'd ask yopu this:

Besides being a sociopath who thinks theft is moral...what do you think takes someone 1$ above the poverty level of income and puts them below it?

TAX. If you didn't income tax them, sales tax them, property tax them, etc tax them, they'd not require money sent to them for assistance in most cases. Taxing the poor and lower middle class into poverty is the number one cause of them being in, and staying in, poverty. Not only does it ROB them, but it destroys incentives (taking a 15$ an hour job and turning it into a 10$ an hour job certainly decreases incentives to work by 33%).

You think what I described above is "living like a peasant"? You're delusional.

Our poor in this country are rich by other nations standards...you just show how spoiled you are is all you're doing.

Peasants? Really?! What a load of BS. I've lived in the ghetto in inner cities, and I've had "nothing". But I had a vacuum cleaner, electricty (most of the time), running water (usually heated by electricity), heat (usually), food to eat (and usually more than I needed to live), television, washing and drying machines, clothes, a home to live in (rented), and a whole host of things no real POOR person in this world has. I wasn't really poor at all, just rich without perspective.

You judge rich and poor by what percentage of income bracket you fall into (top 1%, top 50%, lowest 10%, etc.). This isn't a fair way to judge poverty, logically. You need logical criteria like starvation, clothing, homes, medicine, lifespan, convenience machinery, etc.,etc.

The average America makes about 6 times what their great grandfather did in this same country 100 years ago...for the same amount of labor hours. Even the poorest of us are living a standard of living 6x that of their ancestors 100 years ago. You call that a poverty "crisis"...I cal that a bunch of rich people complaining because they're jealous someone else is richer than them. STFU, stop whining, and be thankful you didn't live poor 100 years ago when you had 6x less! You are not poor today in America...it's nonsense. Any objective criteria (not % of income bracket) used to measure poverty shows we beat poverty for all intents and purposes a long time ago.

But you'll text your friends about evil rich people and how "it's not fairrrrrr, boo hoo, hoo", right?

RIGHT. The irony of the internet having, cell phone carrying public crying about being poor...what a joke.

You are an inbred piece of garbage. Notice how you degenerates breed like rabbits and then tell everyone else to feed, clothe, shelter, and provide for you and you 10 inbred offspring. People like you disgust me. What is "fair" about giving idiots what the righteous have produced until the number of idiots is more than the righteous can support?

someoneelse...56, 13 year old car, no house...Sounds like a stupid, uneducated, nut to me. Calling people degenerates, garbage, an angry broke fool is what U sound like.

Proindividual,

I totally agree.

We are all rich compared to the world population. I was actually just talking to my 22 year old son about that last night. My dad told me how his parents but their parents a hot water heater. They had been heating water on the stove for their baths. They thought it was a total waste of money. They had a wood burning stove for heat. When you think about how people lived 70-100 years ago. Then look how even the poorest live now. Well we have nothing to complain about.

Proindividual and someoneelse.....................Can either of you tell me what Jesus said about feeding and clothing the poor? Did he call them "inbred pieces of garbage?" Did he say they should "stop crying about being poor?" And "stop whining?"

You guys are garbage. Worthless. And we don't need you here.

SoSickoftheGop. Jesus didnt say that the government should force us to do those things. We have to make that choice you moron. im sorry you are sick of the GoP and have no grasp of what socialism actually does to a nation. Charity and socialism are two different things. Charity is wonderful and VOLUNTARY. Socialism is FORCED and therefor not good. Because it gives the government more power which they will INEVITABLY wield in a way that we do not like. Go learn some history. Read the constitution. You probably think capitalism is to blame for our problems. Go study capitalism and realize that WE ARE NOT TRUE CAPITALISTS. We havent been for a long time. THAT is why the country is going to hell. Not because we are capitalists, but because we have forgotten how to be proper capitalists and the resulting government corruption is destroying the country..........

your ideology is going to destroy this nation SoSickoftheGop. I feel bad for poor people too. But i cant put myself into poverty to bring them out of it. And that is what the government is doing with all of these taxes. And then they are running around the world helping other people and sticking MORE debt on my shoulders. More "aid" that does anything but aid me... I saw a bum the other day. I wanted to give him money. But i had $5 in my pocket and no gas in my tank. U know why that is??? Because the government is taking all my money to fight ridiculous wars that are completely unconstitutional and unjustified. And then the rest of what they are taking goes to pay for a bunch of people that are too @!$%#ing lazy to go out and get a damn job. NO. Im sorry but no. The economy cant handle it. Our debt levels cant handle it. AND MY @!$%#ING WALLET CANT HANDLE IT. I will donate to charity when i am financially capable. The government TAKING my money and FORCING me into poverty just to give it to some lazy piece of @!$%# that isnt even trying to get themselves out of poverty but are instead just waiting for their next @!$%#ing handout IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!

state socialism? Yes. Voluntary socialism, not so much....because it's small, localized, and non-authoritarian.

Rofl ProIndividual. R u an anarchist? Because i dislike when the government gets involved in my personal business, or my economic business. But i still think there needs to be a government. The way you talk it sounds as if you think people have actually matured enough socially to thrive on this planet without some form of governing rules. If that is the case then you are VERY MUCH delusional. The world is still rife with conflict and differing opinions. We are not ready to ditch government just yet. But we do need to clean house VERY badly.

We are SOOOOO far from capitalism. What you believe to be capitalism is actually corporate fascism. We do not have ANY extremist capitalists out there. Except Ron Paul. But the others that claim to be capitalists are not. They are fascists. They love the merging of corporate and state power because it makes them RICH and POWERFUL. What we NEED are more extreme capitalists. More people that actually understand what capitalism is. We dont need socialism. Because it leads to corruption and eventually back to corporate fascism. We NEED our capitalism back. The federal reserve is a fascist institution and is destroying the country. A PRIVATE bank controlling the nations MONEY SUPPLY is practically the definition of fascism. Capitalism is not and has never been the problem. The problem is the country got lazy and uneducated and forgot what capitalism actually is. They think we are capitalists and its a joke. We are socialists and fascists. Capitalism is the only thing that can help us. This country was DESIGNED to beat the banks. The wording of our constitution, the words of our founding fathers, the NUMEROUS ways that the people are able to intervene if the need is great enough. We just need to get educated and remember what this country is supposed to be. Then we can throw these fascists out, or better yet hang them for treason, and get our country back to being the freest greatest nation of all time.

Lost in the Pines, you really need to read up on the situation in Europe. In Greece, the problem is not just the expenses of the social programs. It has at least as much, and perhaps more, to do with the government double standard of allowing the highest earners to dodge taxes -- long term and very obviously -- while raising taxes enormously on the middle and lower classes; while at the same time cutting wages and pensions and instituting austerity measures, thus slowing down the economy.

Eevie...I have read up on the situation in Europe, Greece has continued to spend money on its social programs that can not afford, Public employment in Greece thru political, patronage or corrupt means cost those people working in the private sector who actually do support the Greek economy. Greece is a prime example of why socialist type of governments fail. It is the very same people in the streets demonstrating about the austerity programs that have caused the economic problems Greece currently has.

metalworker - several things have altered the world-wide economic landscape over the last 40 years:

1) People live a lot longer than they did even 40 years ago

2) There are few U.S. companies left that are private corporations - most are public corporations where the shareholder interest exceeds that of the worker

3) Medical costs have risen steadily and the U.S. Gov't totally miscalculated the costs of Medicare / Medicaid in the late 1960's

4) U.S. home mortgage guidelines were eased to get more families in to houses and now we defaults

5) The worldwide labor market always adjusts to where the lowest labor cost exists: China today

6) The worldwide energy market has driven up the demand for fossil fuels so much that it has impacted the U.S. economy

Globalization needs to start working or we are going to see these tragic events unfold even more and more

Globalization is what is responsible for this mess, The ability of one country to borrow money from another country because it does not have enough income to operate and then continue to borrow even though it can not repay the initial borrowed money back thus creating the domino affect as one country goes down it drags its creditors down with it.

Here in the US we(our government) are borrowing 40 cents on the dollar of what we spend, It is only a matter of time before those we are borrowing from realize we can not pay it back and cut us off.

You are assuming that there is an intention to repay.........there is not, never was.

The intention is to prevent default, for the countries receiving positive balance of payments to flow the money back to countries with negative balance of payments, thereby maintaining consumption of products, which in turn flows the money back to those countries providing products to be loaned over and over, again and again.

It's the flow of money that is viewed as important, not the receivables and payables on a balance sheet. It is an economic theory that came about in the late 1980s/early 1990s, always living off of Other Peoples Money (OPM). Think of it as getting a cash advance on a new credit card to make the minimum payments on the old credit cards, and to provide some extra for consumption. As the borrower, you win because you can live large, the lender wins because they get to sell more product.

That is what the major economies in the world have been doing, neglecting taxes and substituting borrowing. When the US borrows from the Central Asian banks, there is no intent to repay, nor is there an intent by the Central Asian Banks to collect. Repayment/collection will hurt US consumption, which, in turn, will hurt the Central Asian economies.

It's a shell game.

As long as the money continues to flow, people can consume products, creating jobs for other people.

Balance sheets will rise and fall based upon supply and demand for products.

If you want to decrease US debt, you must increase US supply of products globally.

Lost, Very good point, our Congressman spoke to a group of us about the government and what they spend. The actual expenditures exceed revnues by approximately 47.8%. Like Greece, our national debt now exceeds the annual GDP. When the Chinese cut off our credit, we will suffer the same fate as Greece.

If you woked full time as a nurse for 40 years, paid into SS and Medicare, why is it so unreasonable to you right wing tools to want your money back. I want what is mine. The gov can cut me a check for the full amount plus 40 years of interest tomorrow, just like they did for the big banks, and we are even. Oops, the politicians gave the banks my money, my 401K money and my retirement. A retired pharmacist that had his own business is hardly a welfare collector. He is a victim of murder by the 1% and I believe in the death penalty for the perpetrators.

There is no 1% in Greece. The money is gone and they can't afford their brand of socialism any more. This man was screwed by the 99.

Heck, I'm surprised that suicides aren't happening at a younger age, as more and more people realise what's happening to their dreams, while the filthy rich only get richer

Yes...Lets blame it all on those evil filthy rich...lol...always blaming someone else because you took the easy route and did not prepare for your own future, Our world is in the shape it is in because of people always looking to their governments to take care of them and never making any plans for themself, If it were not for the filthy rich paying more than their share of taxes there would be a much bigger problem than what we have right now.

And no I am not rich or even anywhere near it. But I have planned for my future and whether or not SS is available to me when I retire will not matter because I will be able to take care of myself without it.

Globalization was Both Parties Idea. I never thought we would be Trading with Communist China but it certainly could not have happened without both Parties Blessings. The trouble with China is that it opened a Massive Pool pf Slave Labor that a lot of Capitalists Seized upon and Exploited at the expanse of higher cost Labor Pools in Western Countries.

Should have voted for the 9-9-9 plan and then everyone would pay the same tax rate and not have to file a return. That would make it fair. no redistribution of wealth through "tax returns". That was a republican idea but i guess since nobody is perfect congress would have messed it up anyway.

Hey Eevie, did you evvie have an original thought. Nice parrot act, but why don't you go read something. Like the IRS stats. You could confiscate all the income above $250,000 a year and YOU WOULD NOT RUN ONE OF YOUR DEAR LEADER'S PROGRAMS FOR A SINGLE YEAR.

He's buying idiot-votes (don't look now) to get himself reelected. Your children will be the ones to pay.

And whose thoughts am I parroting, Busyguy? Unlike you, I happen to know a bit more than most about what's going on in Europe. For that matter, exactly WHAT are you talking about? You should proof-read before you post, for certain.

And while you are at it, pick up a book or two on macro economics. You might learn something.

Our democrats in the US are failing miserably, they should have amped up the space program and research, not cut it. The amount of jobs lost in that deal can't even be counted accuately, not that any of them would bother with something as mundane as counting. Taken a fat chunk out of the bloated and inept public education system. Thrown people like the ones in Alex Pelosis' welfare film, in jail. And go with the 10% and 25% straight income tax plan, that offers no deductions. Their dedication to people that have no intention of ever working and contributing to the US is what makes me vote republican. However to the point of investing in infrastructure, and national intrests, I will concede.

evie,

im gonna call BS on you too.

so if your such an expert why arent you negotating this for greece?
so you say they are balancing the budget on the backs of the workers, and thats a bad thing?
is borrowing MORE money the way out of debt really?

I might not be book smart like you, but i am street smart.
and my street smart says if i borrow $50 from the loan shark he wants $75 back at the end of the week. I am also pretty sure if i go back to him next week to borrow $75 and i hand it back to him and say:

"there i paid you back now were even."

i might wind up with a broken nose and owing him $200.

so....

is my math wrong?

cause if i can get my self out of debt by getting into more debt, then i need to get a crap load of credit cards!!!

so explain to us 2 things.

1 what school did you go to, so i dont send my kids there.

2 how exactly is trying to balance a budget, no matter how you do it, bad?

how is a country with no major manufacturing coming out of it going to pay off this debt.

dont be a liberial and cuss me out.

i am trying to learn how going into debt gets you out of debt.

I am BEGgING to learn this!!!

I disagree. Greece would probably have been OK if Globalization had never came on the Scene. Now that they are basically being forced to become a part of the world economy and stay in the EU a a condition of that, their Labor Costs will now have to become Competitive with the rest of the World which means Labor Costs almost equal to third world nations which I fear is what will have to happen here in the U.S. as Labor Costs become equalized around the World.

Globalists who chase the Cheapest Labor Markets are finding more and more difficult to find endless sources of Slave Labor.

I can agree for the most part, but even without the EU the government will gut(cut) social programs more deeply or even before reducing salaries or benefits for the workers as a means to "balance" the budget. This is why it's a big problem over in Greece since everyone is on "government support" for health care and retirement and those are the programs that lose funding first when times get tough.

Yeah, I have to agree that's pretty messed up priorities.

I am a poor single parent who gets no child support and I still save for a rainy day and have learned to live on a bare bones budget because I don't want to be screwed by getting used to a certain standard of living and have it then taken away from me. I qualify for SNAP income wise but we don't get it because a) I have actually managed to save some money so I have too much in assets and b) it doesn't cost us that much to eat and I like it that way. I do get a little jealous of some of my girlfriends on SNAP who have meat every night and shrimp rings and cheese balls for snacks when you visit, but I think I am doing the right thing raising my kids to be frugal. It will be a good skill for the future, I don't want them killing themselves over money when they grow up!

or a capitalist one! LOL

Oh Stop!

The Sub Prime Melt Down was the Coup De Grace of the World Economy. It was a way to force Western Labor costs to Equalize with Third World Labor Costs by Devaluing our Dollar and Western Curriencies.

I could be all washed up on this, but that's my theory/best guess. There were too many Highly Intelligent People in positions of Power to do something about the Sub Prime Melt Down but they did nothing to prevent it. Why?

That's is the only conclusion I can imagine.

They wanted Labor Costs to Collapse and that happened through the Lost Value of Western Currencies.

The Same Dollar today buys only a fraction of what it bought prior to the Sub Prime Melt Down.

I Honestly think this was Engineered. It is the only Conclusion that makes sense. I don't like it but average people did not have any choice in the matter...

The Only ones who benefited from the Sub Prime Melt Down were the ones who knew what was coming.

They are Filthy Rich, especially the ones who bought Gold Before it Spiked in Value.

IfITellUWhoIAmUCanWireTapMe?

That is why we need to take care of each other. I know an old person with no resources and no government handout. When I go to the grocery store I take this person with me and buy them the same thing I buy for myself. I also buy firewood so the person does not have to scavenge for sticks.

Adopt an old person, you will be glad you did.

I wish I had said that.

Only 39 % of those getting SS benefits are retired ! Visit your local SS office and watch the moochers lined up to receive money that is NOT theirs !

The expansion of the victim class in America is destroying our country !