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Narong Sangnak / EPA, file
Russia is furious over a 25-year prison sentence imposed on arms dealer Viktor Bout -- seen inside a cell at the criminal court in Bangkok, Thailand -- by a court in the U.S.
Moscow on Friday slammed the 25-year prison sentenced imposed on Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout by a U.S. court, saying repatriating the man known as the “Merchant of Death” would be “one of our top priorities in Russian-American relations.”
Bout was caught in an undercover sting in Bangkok in 2008 by U.S. agents posing as Colombian guerrillas seeking weapons and later extradited to New York.
He was convicted on two counts of conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals and officers of the United States and one count each of conspiracy to sell anti-aircraft missiles and providing material support to a terrorist organization.
The judge said Thursday that sentencing guidelines called for a life sentence, which prosecutors requested, but said the fact that Bout's conduct was a result of a government sting operation was a mitigating factor despite his long history of arms dealing.
Russia 'not seeking revenge'
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Friday that he would discuss the sentence with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, according to Russia’s RIA Novosti news service.
“In this situation we are not seeking revenge, but want to help Viktor Bout. We are not proceeding by a desire to take revenge at any price, but by the desire to enforce the rights of our compatriot. We will actively support the appeal that Bout’s lawyers are going to file and will strive for his repatriation,” he added.
In a statement Russia’s foreign ministry said it would “take whatever action necessary to repatriate Viktor Bout back to his Motherland by any means within international law,” RIA Novosti reported.
“This issue will, without doubt, be one of our top priorities in Russian-American relations," it added.
March 6, 2008: A man the U.S. says is one of the world's biggest arms dealer was arrested in Thailand. MSNBC's Contessa Brewer talks with "Merchant of Death" author Steve Braun.
"In spite of the unreliability of the evidence, the illegal character of his arrest involving the participation of U.S. special service agents in Thailand and the subsequent extradition, American legal officials, having carried out a political order, ignored the arguments of lawyers and numerous appeals from all levels in defense of this Russian citizen," ministry statement said.
"Long before the sentence was given to Bout, the authorities declared him the 'Merchant of Death' and almost an international terrorist, but this accusation was based exclusively on his imputed 'criminal intent,’” it said.
NY judge gives Merchant of Death 25 years
The statement, as quoted by RIA Novosti, alleged that an attempt was made to force Bout to admit he was guilty “by creating unbearable conditions for detention, by both physical and psychological means. The absolutely unacceptable campaign by the American media was aimed at influencing the jury and the judicial process in the 'right direction.'"
Reputed $6 billion fortune
In court for the sentencing hearing Thursday, Bout blurted out “It’s a lie!” as the federal prosecutor argued unsuccessfully for a life sentence.
U.S. District Judge Shira Scheindlin said 25 years was sufficient and appropriate because there was no evidence the 45-year-old Bout would have been charged with seeking to harm Americans if not approached by informants posing as Colombian rebels. The judge also ordered a $15 million forfeiture.
"But for the approach made through this determined sting operation, there is no reason to believe Bout would ever have committed the charged crimes," she said.
For nearly two decades, Bout built a worldwide air cargo operation, amassing a fleet of more than 60 transport planes, hundreds of companies and a fortune reportedly in excess of $6 billion — exploits that were the main inspiration for the Nicholas Cage film "Lord of War."
His aircraft flew from Afghanistan to Angola, carrying everything from raw minerals to gladiolas, drilling equipment to frozen fish.
But, according to authorities, the network's specialty was black market arms — assault rifles, ammunition, anti-aircraft missiles, helicopter gunships and a full range of sophisticated weapons systems, almost always sourced from Russian stocks or from Eastern European factories.
In the months before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, U.S., British and United Nations authorities heard growing reports that Bout's planes and maintenance operations, then headquartered in the United Arab Emirates, were aiding the Taliban while it sheltered al-Qaida militants in Afghanistan.
Bout later denied that he worked with the Taliban or al-Qaida — and denied ever participating in black market arms deals.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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I guess I shouldn't find it surprising Russia wants to help a man who sells weapons to terrorists.
More and More it seems that is Russian Mob is running the country over there, and considering that if he is worth 6 billion he could get anyone in the goverment to do anything he wants.
Cool. Deal in arms and death, pay the price. More should be in your cell with you and not only Russians.
And our very own CIA hasn't assassinated those who dare to defy our will? Just who, exactly, are the terrorists? We are largely responsible for the enmity of most of the rest of the world as we support an organization that is totally lawless and mostly out of control. Given the circumstances, I wonder if our CIA wasn't in the shadows as the 9/11 attack evolved from just a desire to hit the USA into a sophisticated and successful terrorist attack. The target, the weapons, and the perpetrators who were seduced into thinking it was their idea, being just the pawns in a sinister plot to take away the freedoms the USA had come to stand for and support a president that was the biggest idiot ever to hold that office.
Not that I insist that this is true, I have no way of really knowing. It does seem to resonate with what I have seen in our history and the history of the world. I actually hope I am completely wrong, but strongly suspect that I am not.
The Russians who come here to the US; (many are wonderful people, some my friends) belong to extreme gangs, with gang activity.
The guy being held, shows that Russia is NOT friends with the United States. They are friends/aides of weapons to Terrorist Countries.
President Obama is fooling himself if he thinks Russia can be wooed to our Government's side.
Case in point: The mike was turned off while Obama met with Medvedev----there is the truth---working deals with Russia behind our backs---US citizens knowing nothing about how Russia will affect our lives. It is still the USSR. Dangerous.
What about the American arms dealers like the Carlyle group?
Not all Russian emigres are involved in gangs. Know some in my neck of the woods that are honest, decent and hard-working.
Marchant, I thought that the cold war was over? Care to enlighten?
They're upset about a measly 25 years for arms dealing? Boo hoo.
don't worry, he will have more flexibility after the election (wink,wink)
Pat:
I will enlighten you.
Russia is at the core of all the Chaos happening around the World, with the aide of Iran. They are best friends, trading oil and arms together. Russia has the capability of building nuclear arms, selling them, giving out formulas, etc.,, and Iran is filled with Oil rich Territory, helping all our enemies to go against the United States. Trading. This is fact. They are in bed together, including China, venezuela, and North Korea.
We must be very careful when dealing with Russia---Russian people are very wonderful, as mentioned above that many are my friends. The Russian Gangs have definitely settled in this country. They are the most dangerous along with the Mexican Cartel. Killing people is like lighting a match. Many are connected to big cases here.
There is No Cold War anymore. "Tear Down That Wall"; spoken by Gorbachev. Yes, indeed, but Russia is always up to no good. Look at all the people who have disappeared, and the non-explanation of Terrorist attacks in their country.
Russia, Iran, trouble together.
Correction:
#1.8----"Tear Down That Wall"; spoken by the late Pres, Ronald Reagan, addressed to Russia's Gorbachev.
Sorry.
Russia's continual siding with murderer's and despots around the world -- such as this man the so-called "Merchant of Death", Assad of Syria, Qaddafi of Libya, Mubarak of Egypt, Ahmadinejad of Iran, etc. -- SHOULD tell us all everything we need to know about the government of that country.
Russia's leadership works non-stop to undermine and counter America's interests. The "Cold War" never ended, as far as Russia is concerned. They are still fighting to win it!
Ahh........ He was just misunderstood and abused as a small child.
That was "tear down this wall", for what little it was worth.
Let us not forget that we aided Bin Lad-din in the 80's. We also supported terrorist if you are looking at it in general. He is simply a salesman and would sell to anyone regardless of the reason. He did not do this in the US and I do not see where we can just grab someone and do what we want.
I guess we just gloss over our indiscretions in this field? Just who do you think helped put Saddam Hussein in power? Not to mention provided the chemical weapons used against Iran and his own people. Just who do you think helped overthrow the democratically elected leader in Iran that lead to the shah of Iran? Just who was supplying Osma Bin Laddin with weapons in Afghanistan when the Russians were fighting there? I just wonder who killed the popular democratic leader Diem in South Viet-Nam that lead to the puppet despot we supported.
Oh I forgot we never do anything wrong so we never have to apoligize for wron doings.
Not to worry....Comrade Obama will pardon him at some point.
yes marchant, it is absolutely horrible that other countries don't march in blind lockstep to our orders
get a dose of reality for once
SoftDude....... Go back to sleep..... or back to Russia!!!!
Why tear something down when you can just blow it away?
That's probably what this 'Merchant' thought.
Against Union Thievery ...
You might have one there to watch for ... if Obama loses the election in November (which it will no doubt be a very close election), it WILL be VERY interesting to watch and see if Viktor Bout gets a sudden "unexpected" Presidential pardon on his last day in office.
Worth watching for ... yes indeed.
Against Union ... your post deserves a response. Visualize my middle finger.
soft dude, sleep tight because you are absolutely wrong...your prayers are answered. It's not a question of conspiracy, just good old greed. The Russians are the model of free market economics, models which our conservative free-market politicians can hold high. No government interference or regulations or oversight, just pure profit at any cost. There is no profit in morality. Actually, Bout would make the ideal republican Presidential candidate, too bad he was born in Russia...sorry guys, I know how important birth certificates are to you folks.
You right wing nut jobs project much? If this dirt bag gets pardoned if Obama was to lose it is much more likely to happen on Romney's first day on the job........As he gets ready to start another war with the rest of his chicken hawk buddies. After all Halliburtin needs the money.
F**k Russia.
Should have let Patton do his thing while we were there.
RwEvans, Just like in the good ol' U.S.of A. Money owns and controls government.
"I must break you"
That Russian mob running the country... of COURSE they are mad!
Russia needs to mind it's own damn business. They have a slew of their own problems to handle without sticking their noses into ours..
Well he wouldn't mind it so much if Americans or anyone else is slaughtered as long as the friendly Russian arms dealer gets his money.
Here's how it will all go down: A) M.O.D. will go to jail; B) Putin screams like a gut shot Bolshevik; C) A Pay-Off happens, which part of it already has; C) M.O.D. will be "Transferred" to a Russian prison because in the Spirit of Friendly Relations and to have M.O.D. closer to his family; D) M.O.D. will either be released by the Russians for "Time Servered" or he'll conveniently just not be in his cell one morning at role call. Huh? How'd that happen? and E) President Obama and the Justice Department screams like a gut shot Wall Street Tycoon ! F) M.O.D. is seen sunning himself on Santorini sipping an Ouzo while drumming up new business from terrorist clients around the world.
Now THAT'S a good deal!
Wow, sounds like the Russian government is as delusional as the US government.
danwill:
Other countries do not have to march step to our orders---The US is a Democracy..
It is that many of those around the World are asking for our Government's Help----re: Starvation in Africa, other parts of the World, poverty, Dictatorships, The Chaos, slaughtering, help in uprisings, bringing it to a halt. Others not living in the US are most unfortunate who are desperate to seek some kind of calm.
The US is not the Care Taker of Countries, but when asked by them for help, we must be very careful. How many times have the Countries who America helped, then back stab us?
Why do so many illegal and legal Aliens dream to come to America. Is it because, we give out free money? No, they want the Freedoms of which we all have here.
All Presidents are Leaders of the Free World. They take their job seriously, when asked for help.
Ruken/others:
"Tear Down This Wall"; what an extrordinary time. The Wall between East and West Berlin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_down_this_wall
Romney is right about Russia. Obama has weakened our relationship by cowering to that country and their demands. That is why they can speak so disrespectfully of the US just like Iran does. Russia and Iran have the upper hand.
Где ваш друг Владимир Путин теперь? Может он помочь вам? Мой друг, вы в большой тревоге. Скажите американцам чего они хотят знать и возможно вы можете пойти домой. Возможно.
It's clear that the Russian politicians think they need him to authorize payoffs to them.
A mystery in the case: why can't they directly access his money? Or transfer his company to someone who can keep the money flowing?
He forgot to give the CIA their cut. Ever heard of Nicaragua? If they asked would we sent George H Bush to them? He would be found guilty there(no scapegoat allowed). Don't always believe what you read. Also we are the largest exporters of weapons in the world. We are just getting rid of the competition not making the world safer.
The Russians are probably PO'd because this puts a crimp in their arms sales.
"Скажите американцам чего они хотят знать и возможно вы можете пойти домой."
Что вы думаете американцам нужно знать?
Lookin' like Putin said "Nyet" to Obama's asking for some slack, don't cause any commotions till after he gets re-elected and has more flexibility.....Didn't even give him a week....
All Russians are not members of an organized crime group. I have worked with a number of Russians that are good people, not doing anyone any trouble. They work hard, play hard ... throw great weddings. Maybe this guy is guilty, but that is no reason to start treating all Russians as terrorists.
Bout was almost released FREE from Thailand, after the US had made many errors in his extradition process...
Unfortunately for him, Mikhail Pletnev, a famous Russia concert director, was also making headlines in Thailand. He had been caught with his pants down in a 14-year old child molestation case, with pictures and protesting parents with other victims...
Pletnev is one of the most famous figures in Russian classical music. Now 53, he is a member of president Dmitry Medvedev's advisory council on culture and art, and a friend of former president Mikhail Gorbachev. In 2005, he won a Grammy for his arrangement of Prokofiev's Cinderella Suite.
Pletnev decided it was better to leave Thailand and forfeit his bail and extensive Thai property holdings. Rather than face the Thai courts and possible 20+years of jail time...
This resulted in several Thai/Russian Military contracts being cancelled and Bout being deported to the USA...
BTY - The Russian Mafia is well established in the Southern Thai Tourist areas, not the people you want to cross...
You shouldn't find it surprising. After all Putin was helping a Holocaust denier develop his nuclear capability. Israel hasn't threatened Russia with a nuclear holocaust.
Only if you are Northrop Grumman, Boeing, Martin Marietta, Raytheon or a CIA broker you can sell arms to basically anybody.
I'm sure the Russians will get over it. Another round of Vodka all around and everything will be fine again.
Exactly! The CIA was selling weapons to the Mujahadeen, Islamic fanatics fighting the legal gov't., eventually they defeated the Russian Army that the Afghan gov't invited to crush the rebellion, with our help 14,000 Russian soldiers were killed, the Taliban eventually took power (same people as the Mujahadeen by another name) and we got the World Trade Center attacks....
Yet no one like Zbigniew Brzezinski was charged.
I bet this Russian guy didn't get nearly as many people killed as the CIA did, certainly not his own countrymen like the CIA did when they put Bin Laden in power.
25 years is hypocrisy of the highest order in light of the CIA implementation of Bin Laden at Russian soldiers expense. This Russian guy should be judged by the same measuring tape that the CIA and Bryzenski were in arming the Mujahadeen.
not quite, the mujahadeen were primarily the "northern alliance", slightly less radical. but they were still ticked off that we completely and utterly abandoned them the minute the russians withdrew. that's not to say that we weren't also happily supplying arms to the talibanis too
Good info, Dan, thanks. I didn't know they weren't the same element.
Still this sentence is hypocrisy when you consider our arms helped kill 14,000 Russian soldiers who were invited to fight Islamic fanatics.
Just as long as you are a gov't official it's okay. We had no security interests in arming Islamic zealots and jeopardizing Russian soldiers. Actually in light of September 11, we had security interests in keeping arms out of the hands of religious fanatics and letting the Russian soldiers do the job they were invited to perform by the legal ruling gov't of Afghanistan.
We need to be friends w Russia,NOT china.If they want him,give him up,on a bed of roses
Did giving up your lunch money to the school bully make him your friend?
Nicholas Cage played this guy in the movie about his weapons dealing exploits; a typical one-dimensional Nick Cage film with the actor hard-pressed to come up with more than two facial expressions.
Having watched Cage single-handedly undermine the art of film for the past 20 years, I would vote for sending the Russian back to Russia, and locking-up Cage (so he will never foul our movie screens again!!)
:-) <---tongue-in-cheek grin)
We should have just one word to Russia concerning Viktor Bout - NUTZ
Well he did come and see me every day just before lunch, so yeah, I guess we did become friends of sorts.
Repatriate him? Sh*t, no! The reason Russia is so fond of this man is that Russia itself is into arms dealing: who do you think equips the Syrian army when they go in and level a city, say, like Homs? Why do you think Russia blocked the UN resolution condemning Assad? They don't want anything cutting into their business, and my guess is that Putin, the old KGB b*stard, is heavily invested in such enterprises. Let this guy rot in prison, let the years soften him up until information rises from him like bubbles from a swamp. As for those who accuse the Carlysle Group, CIA and other entities of arms dealing, well, if they get righteously busted for that, I will shed no tears.
I see nothing that this man is doing wrong. He is simply a merchant. What's so wrong with that? When I look at his face, all I see is a man of opportunity/ a capitalist. He is using the principles founded by the USA to make himself better, while the USA is doing horrible things to this man. I don't support the russian mob, or the stuff they do. But I will say that I DO NOT support the invasive actions our country is performing all over the world. Why the @!$%# can't we mind our own @!$%#ing business??? USA is a country full of rats/bureaucrats/pull peddlers/generally people with no morals. I am disgusted with my country.
Furthermore! If you out this guy, there'll be ten other Russians rushing in to fill his place. This is the principle of markets and economics. If there is a demand, then there will be suppliers. #SimpleStupid
Well, yes, pained 1,we do need Russia as a friend, if it is a fact that no war has been won without the help
of Russia. Keep it friendly! Because the next war after WW3 or Armaggedon, depending on your worldview would be fought with sticks and stones
Russia wants him out? So hypocritical. These are the good folks who put out contracts on newspaper reporters who dare to expose their dirty dealings. And how many political prisoners are they willing to let out of prison in exchange? Otherwise, throw the keys away.
Is it just me or with that mustache could that guy get a job at any fire department in the US?
or any 70's porn movie
It's good that someone who sells arms to anyoner and everyone to make a buck is behind bars. The misery this type of business causes in the world is overwhelming. Now we need to arrest US, Israeli, Russian, Chinese, English, French politians, diplomats, arms makers, and arm sellers. Lets start with US. Henry Kissinger is a war criminal. So was John McNarmara (Vietnam) under John Kennedy. So is Dick Cheney. Our buddies the Israelis have been selling arms to anyone and everyone forever. But Russia and China are no better. Neither are the English or French. So, yearh, they got a bad guy where he belongs. How much death did his business cause when he was only concerned about making money and not who he was selling to. I do NOT feel sorry for him and the Russians can eat it. NOW let's go after everybody else. Let' start with the US arms dealers and our war mongering politicians.
Bill,
Following your logic, the majority of arms being used around the world are being supplied by the US, is that right?
I seem to remember the weapon of choice around the globe is either the Russian made AK 47, or the Romanian and Czechoslovakian versions that are a bit less expensive than the Russian counterpart, but the least expensive version is built and distributed by China. The Russian RPG is another weapon of choice, also produced and supplied by the same 4 nations.
Legitimate governments supported by the US in their fight against insurgencies (using the AK) use the American M16/M4s, known for accuracy, though the AK is known better for reliability in adverse conditions. The only illegal organization known to use US small arms are the Mexican and Central American drug cartels.
US weapons systems are sought after for the technological superiority, though they are more costly than the Asian varieties.
It is safe to say, you would be better served going after Eastern European and Asian distributors than targetting the US.
Military Man
There were a lot of terrorist organizations in Africa that used American arms as well, like Unita and Frelimo.
Where is the investigation of the American arms manufacturers and suppliers?
I'm not saying there are NO US weapons there, but there are far more AK 5 ands 47s along with Russian designed RPGs being used there than US ordnance.
Russian mines and EO are strewn all across Vietnam, Korea and Afghanistan. Along with the hundreds of caches we located in Iraq-supplied by Russia through Iranian supply channels to use against Iraqi government and US soldiers.
Granted there are "freedom fighters" who are friendly with the US, attempting to topple Warlords in central Africa, who we supply weapons to. But again, they have access to far more Russian designed ordnance than US.
So we should arrest him and shake a fist at Russia because they make better weapons?
He didn't say they make better weapons. They don't make better weapons. The AKs & SKSs are cheaper to manufacture, simpler, and will still shoot even when their barrels are fouled. In other words, if you are not a professional soldier & don't know much about weapons, picking up an AK47 and learning it is easier than learning the M16. But Military Man is right. The modern version of the M16/M4 is just about the best massed produced military rifle out there. The U.S. will supply friendly nations and allies with them, but don't usually just sell thousands of them to anyone and everyone like Russia, China, and the former East Block countries will with their ordinance.
It is like this, you can get a $400 dollar computer from Dell and jump online. It is functional for many novice needs. But if you have any kind of specialized computer needs or programs to run or are into gaming, then you regard that cheap POS Dell like most trained military men in the U.S. regard an AK.
There have been more AKs produced in the last 50 years than all other assault rifles combined in human history.
In other words, Military Man is correct. Yes, the U.S. and it's allies deal in arms. Yes, it isn't entirely without blood on it's hands. But in terms of scale of arms sales, dealing and manufacturing of arms in the world arms market...Russia (and agents like this Bout guy) & the former Soviet block countries make the U.S. look like your neighborhood 7 year old selling lemonade on the corner.
Military Man-1740371 "Legitimate governments supported by the US", that is the point, who is legitimate and who is a freedom fighter is all in the eyes of the beholder. For instance, we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, a legitimate government that enforces laws to oppress women and sponsors a radical form of Islam that is the cause of the Islamic terrorist ideology in the world, go figure.
Rofl, Russia flexing her muscles. B*tch please; Rot in jail motherf*cker.
Of course Russia will back his AZZ up..he was the best weapon salesman they had..now no more $$$$ for Russia.
Ironic, since the USA is the biggest arms dealer in the world. Don't you think the moniker "Merchant of Death" is just a wee bit prejudicial.
oh Gary...don't be such a liberal homo..
Oh Jerry: nice job proving my ongoing point that all stupid people are Conservatives! Thanks.
Jerry-3891093, Jimee Johnson, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Even if Jimee is right?
We, the United States of America, the Land of The Free and Home of the Brave ought to act like a truly free and democratic country and knock it off with these fake stings. In this case and in the majority of these bogus stings we are wrong. It's truly nauseating to see things like this happen with U.S.A stamped on it. The Majority of Americans like freedom and liberty and are not represented by underhanded slime ball tactics like this so-called sting. We're a strong nation completely capable of defending ourselves from foreign and domestic enemies. It's fully absurd and unnecessary to stoop to creating a crime and then solving it as some sort of international deterrent which only serves to create more enemies and hatred toward the United States.
We need to stop it and step up to the great nation we truly are.
Sean Penn will play him as an oppressed hero.
He was playing on the CIA's turf. Only they have the authority to sell arms to terrorists.
Simon , you're forgetting our Attorney General who sells weapons to drug cartels.
Uh, Lee? He didn't sell them, gun dealers did.
How about the right wing NUTS Oliver TRAITOR North and Ronald Alzheimer's Reagan. They sold weapons to drug dealing Central America!
Uh Toasty he approved the deal. Jimee I believe you are violating the code of honor such as it is
Fast and Furious ring a bell anyone???
Meaning that he let them sell guns. Isn't that what the gun nuts have been demanding for decades? you can't have it both ways: you can't call for something then attack the government for giving you what you demanded.
"Fast and Furious"...backed by the NRA.
Obama and Holder should be each given at least 25 years each also for Fast & Furious....WTF
Actually they should get life. I dont think we have confirmation that this guy's gun deals killed an American. We have that from Fast and Furious.
For doing what the NRA has been demanding for decades, letting people buy guns?
Yup toasty, no pleasing the reich wing!!! LOL. I think it is time that we (conservatives and liberals alike) started nailing the reich wing ignoramuses.
Another one. The GOP were the first ones to call for an insurance mandate (1993) and now they want to kill it (because a dem got the jump on them?)
Cap and trade - a capitalist attempt to control pollution (which I still support). They now call it cap and tax.
And there are literally tons more
If that dick, Cheney, was not imprisoned, no high level stinking politicians from either criminal political party will be.
No, Toasty, for letting criminals buy guns. I know you know the difference, even if it doesn't fit your argument.
Sorry Bill, but the gun lobby has consistently fought against common-sense laws that WOULD and DO prevent criminals from obtaining firearms.
Sorry Toasty, but the gun lobby has consistently fought against laws that would prevent criminals from obtaining firearms as a side effect of restricting law-abiding citizens from obtaining firearms. Nice try, though.
In other words... "Okay Toasty, you're right." Rephrasing my statement doesn't change its content.
Toasty,
You are correct when you say that rephrasing your statement doesn't change its content. And I know, having seen some other posts of yours, that you are being disingenuous rather than obtuse. So, allow me to start over:
Okay Toasty, you're right when you say the NRA has lobbied against (not, in my opinion, common sense) laws that would prevent criminals from obtaining firearms. They have done so because those laws would restrict average citizens from obtaining firearms, not because they have the secondary effect of restricting criminals. A law that restricts the rights of average citizens in an attempt to thwart criminals is, in my opinion, a bad law. It is precisely for that reason that I disagree with some of the provisions of the Patriot Act.
Dear Jeff,
I think Obama an Holder should get life too. Life in office. Forget the repugs.
Actually 4 more years will do.
Four more years of do nothing but elevate the debt limit, change we no longer have in our pockets.
Obama will have more FLEXIBILITY after "his" election.....please pass this on to Viktor !
We can only hope.
Turn about is always fair play. The Russians can get Americans on false charges and sentence them to 25 years. Russia could so the same, for instants with the drug use in the US, which is the highest in the world and legal if you are part of the 1% it should be easy to find an American violating their drug laws. I remember reading about a Israeli spy a month ago that the US government patted on the head and sent home to Israel. Different nation, different treatment, we are required by law not to every punish an Israeli citizen for any crime.
Gary, tell that to Pollard and Kadish Israeli spies now in US prison.
Gary... please post the non existant law you refer to...
In the interest of fair play, shouldn't we arrest those responsible for fast and furious? We sell arms to hundreds of countries that at one point are our "friends" for a profit. What is exactly the difference? Having the power to declare righteousness?
The people responsible for selling the guns were gun dealers. The government merely let them be purchased. Isn't that what the gun nuts have been demanding? The NRA should be calling for Holder to get a medal...
Toasty, you've GOT to be the most dedicated kool-aid drinker I've ever read. Several gun dealers brought concerns about the small arms sales to the ATF and DOJ over-ruled them. Actually instructing them to "let the guns walk". The only reason they're in the news now is the Feds are trying to distract and deflect blame. The entire "Fast and Furious" boondoggle was intended entirely as a way to ramp up public sentiment against gun ownership by tying US gun sales to violent criminals. As we've seen, it backfired in a big, big way.
Meanwhile, the "most transparent administration in history" stonewalls any attempt at investigation, shielding those responsible from any consequences.
And you drink the Fox FAKE news kool-aid like a NUT dying of thirst in the desert. Back up your stinking facts with some credibility other than the right wing nut channel!
In other words, Larry... Exactly what I first said. After years and years of attacking gun sale restrictions, you're now attacking the administration for letting people buy guns.
Toasty,
No matter how you parse the argument, it is still unsound. First, I call on you to provide proof that the NRA has ever supported selling firearms to criminals. Untrue premise = unsound argument. Second, even though the DOJ/ATF didn't sell firearms, they did approve the sales. That's called conspiracy. And, the last time I checked, being part of a conspiracy that results in murder makes each and every conspirator subject to the charge. Do you know of a different law?
No Toasty in other words Obama's DOJ instructed gun dealers to let the weapons walk, that is what Fast And Furious was all about. Pretending this didn't happen doesn't make it so. I'll never understand why Liberals are so eager to give Obama a pass. All that debt acquired during his term how unpatriotic
Bill, they blanket-oppose ALL firearms-related restrictions. That's their entire purpose.
And you can't try to call me illogical when your argument is "the government is responsible because the conspired to let gun dealers sell guns." You can't have it both ways.
The reality is that most guns used in crimes were obtained during crimes. Blaming the guns instead of those responsible is like like blaming your sperm for getting your wife pregnant. It is not the guns fault nor is it the fault of those who legally obtained them. You can go round and round blaming everyone other than those that commit crimes, but in the end it is the criminal who committed the crime. And holding everyone else responsible and limiting their freedoms does nothing to punish those that are actually guilty. It only punishes the innocent.
Toasty,
Your statement that they blanket-oppose ALL firearms-related restrictions is false. And I never called you illogical ... I called your argument unsound. You can't put words in my mouth. I never said "the government is responsible". I am not a conspiracy theorist. My claim is that those individuals who work for the government and who approved those gun sales are subject to a murder charge under well-established conspiracy laws. Try refuting my claim instead of twisting my words.
Hit the turn table, your record is stuck.
You spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round.
Isn't that what the vine is all about, arguing so we get it out of our system so we don't commit road rage?
They don't want to "help compatriot", they want to arrest him themselves and confiscate his $6 billion.
And resell the weapons to someone else??????
Wow the Kremilin will not be getting their cut of the profits for the next 25 years and thus loose an important distributor of death... Russsia has not changed.......still Stalinistic and Tsar like... in their mentality
This guy has fueled so much suffering and death with his "business". Its all about the money, nothing else, greed, greed, greed!!! I pity him, as he will be judged one day by a higher authority than anything man can devise, and all his money will avail him nothing!
They want him because if he opens his mouth the entire politico establishment in Russia comes tumbling. Not to mention what he knows about his competitors.
BREAKING: USA sentences USA on weapons dealing charges. USA outraged. USA reports.
TELL the Russians that OBAMA will do anything to anybody if he wants and IF they dont like it...COME GET US!!!! The GOVT MAY give him Water Torture..who knows..obama will bury you people...tell them that...then he will bury Iran also...he does what he wants..he dont even listen to the People OR Govt...MOB BOSS..you dealin wit a Chi-town Muslin...and IF ya want hiom to supply Russia like he said in the OPEN MIKE Incident..ya better sut down and SHUT THE HELL UP....Obama and the MEMPHIS Maifa....wif a little Abe Lincoln....
Hey tom
the mob in my neck of the woods supports Obama - BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Where do you live: Chicago?
I guess the Russians want their outside sales manager back.
Russia jails the innocent and gets angry when the guilty are punished. What a country! With friends like that the world doesn't need enemies. I hope we don't make any deals with Russia and just keep this criminal in jail where he belongs. Hard to belive but Russia is actually more corrupt than the U.S. government and it's crony capitalist masters.
I DON'T think you're lying!
To hell with Russia. Their government is nothing but a bunch of corrupt wimps that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. The majority of Russians should revolt against them and kick their butts to the curb. F*(k you Putin you Communist pig.
You think our politicians are any better, insider trading land grabs, tax evasion. Wake up!
DadInaz..................You just desribed the United States of Socialism! Just insert Obama for Putin.
Sorry mddr, but social security, welfare, and public education (socialism) were in place before Obama was born.
A silent bullet to his head. Problem solved. No international termoil. But No! Obama is just plain dumb.
Hillary needs to tell the KGB run Russian government to have a borscht enema.
Lets see how Obummer spins this one. Put Holder in jail for the same thing and call it even.
You do know that is was not Obama that arrested him or asked for him to be arrested, right? Or do you even care about facts?
Who cares about Obama just another in a long line of failed presidents.
I know this is entirely off-topic, but I'm intruged to know how Obama is a failed President. I will be waiting for hard facts.
Unemployment is going down since this president took office. Obama has been sending teams to kill terrorist left and right, not to mention the fact that during his presidency he nailed Osama Bin Laden.
The only thing that can be considered a fail during is presidency is the horrible support that most republicans and some democrats have offered him.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Mitch McConnell as well other republicans state, "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president". They just admitted that they are not willing to help the president, and will do everything in their power to prevent him from doing anything, which of so far that have prevented Obama from doing much. This is harming the citizens when Obama tries to help the people, and by harming citizens they are in fact in violation of the constitution and therefore sit under sedtitious behaviors which is by law an act of treason. everything that has been done to ruin Obama's attempts at helping the people has been of seditious nature, whether he is white or black, does not matter, they are preventing him from doing his job.
So tell me, who is failing our country? Doesn't seem like Obama too much.
Roc Watts,
Here is what Obama has accomplished:
1. Killed more US Troops and spent more money in Afghanistan, than Bush did...
2. Fired his hand picked General, when the General stated that a POLITICALLY run conflict CAN NOT be won...
3. Watched the crude oil price go from $37+USD to over $100+USD. While placing more restrictions on the oil industry and energy suppliers...
4. Enabled the USA to INCREASE the shipping of Metallurgical coal to China by 800% on Buffett's railroad...
5. Enabled the most US Citizens & others to receive 'Food Stamps', in the history of the USA...
6. Enabled the CIA to kill US Citizens and thousands of INNOCENTS, around the World...
7. Not held his appointees ACCOUNTABLE when they; sell weapons to known Crimminals/Terrorist or state that, "Returning Veterans Pose Terrorist Threat"...
8. Obama has directed his Administration to take states to court for; passing voter id laws and enforcing immigration laws...
9. Etc, etc...
BTW - He did issue orders to KILL ben Laden, but the CIA used intel that was collected by 'interrogating terrorist', which was one of the first things that Obama OUT-LAWED, when he assumed office...
AC Robertson, please provide sources for these claims. Roc Watts asked for hard facts, not statements with nothing provided to back them up.
AC, what was the price of crude 1 year before that?
(hint. $135 per barrel)
due to all the jobs lost by the bush led economic collapse (the same economic collapse that was responsible for oil dropping from $135 a barrel to $37 a barrel)
he didn't outlaw interrogation, he outlawed HARSH INTERROGATIOn. there is a HUGE moral and ethical difference there.
Under Obama, the CIA has killed more people than it has captured, mainly through drone missile strikes in Pakistan's tribal areas. At the same time, it has stopped trying to detain or interrogate suspects caught abroad, except those captured in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"The CIA is out of the detention and interrogation business," said a U.S. official who is familiar with intelligence operations but was not authorized to speak publicly...
reference - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/10/world/la-fg-cia-interrogation-20110411
If you look at the EIA data for historical crude oil prices - during the entire Bush Administration crude oil averaged less than $45+USD a barrel...
Concerning the sub-prime melt-down
1. Obama as ACORN’s lawyer, sued Citibank in 1994 (Buycks-Roberson), to force them into giving subprime loans to home buyers with poor credit ratings, setting the stage for the mortgage meltdown... see http://www.mediacircus.com/2008/10/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/
2. Watch the Brooksly Born vedio - 'WARNING'. see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/25/AR2009052502108.html
3. Even Barney Frank thought it was a “great mistake to push low income people into homes.”... see http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/barney-frank-good-riddance/2011/11/28/gIQAdo5m5N_blog.html
4. For a time line & the people involved w/quotes.. see http://tjhancock.wordpress.com/housing-bubble-financial-crisis-detailed-comprehensive-assessment/
AC, bush oversaw a rise in oil prices from under 20 per barrel to 137 per barrel, no amount of spin is going to change that fact. in other words, bush's performance regarding oil prices was at least two times worse than obama's
which makes sense considering bush's wife and darth cheney are both big oil family. cheney enacting his secret energy plan that he has never let anyone outside of his cronies see (remember his secret meetings?)
Well, since no one on here is commenting on the main issue (which should be his guilt or innocence), it might be a good idea to look at what other sources say. Even Al Jazeera admits he is guilty. He has violated UN sanctions, according to the most communist friendly countries. His arms have already been used to kill Americans. I am as liberal as it gets, but Bush flat got this one right. This is a bad man. A very bad man. We would have been justified in killing him.