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Core Issues
Core Issue ad, "Not gay! Ex-gay, post-gay and proud. Get over it" was pulled before it could run on London buses.
Advertisements suggesting a cure for being gay were banned Thursday from running on London buses, British media reported.
The ads by Christian groups Core Issues Trust and Anglican Mainstream said, “Not gay! Ex-gay, post-gay and proud. Get over it!” The words implying that people can get over being gay were scheduled to run for two weeks on 25 buses beginning next week.
The campaign was developed in response to gay-advocacy group Stonewall’s 1,000-bus equal-marriage campaign that began April 1. Its ads boast "Some people are gay. Get over it."
Stonewall
A 'Some People Are Gay. Get Over It!' advertisement on a London bus.
The Christian groups used the same black, red and white color scheme as Stonewall.
Core Issues leader Mike Davidson has said "homoerotic behavior is sinful," The Guardian reported.
The Core Issues website says it supports men and women with homosexual issues who voluntarily seek change in sexual preference and expression and that it "respects the rights" of individuals who do not seek change.
"Heterosexual preference is the goal of gender-affirming therapy and this may lead to marriage," the group says.
Conservative London Mayor Boris Johnson used his position as Transport for London chairman to ditch the Christian ads. In his statement, reported by The Guardian, Johnson said:
Oli Scarff / Getty Images
Boris Johnson, mayor of London, is shown April 10.
"London is one of the most tolerant cities in the world and intolerant of intolerance. It is clearly offensive to suggest that being gay is an illness that someone recovers from and I am not prepared to have that suggestion driven around London on our buses."
After the mayor blocked the ads, Stonewall spokesman Andy Wasley said, "It is fantastic that no adverts will be promoting voodoo, gay-cure therapy in London."
Davidson told the Press Association: "I didn't realize censorship was in place. We went through the correct channels and we were encouraged by the bus company to go through their procedures. They OKed it and now it has been pulled."
The ban comes a day after “The American Prospect” ran an article in which retired psychiatrist and Columbia University professor Robert Spitzer retracted a much-criticized 2001 study used for years by anti-gay activists to buttress their claims that gay men and lesbians can be “cured” of their homosexuality through therapy. Spitzer asked the author, Gabriel Arana, to print a retraction of the 2001 study so that he “wouldn’t have to worry about it anymore.”
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Leave a Comment:
Some people are gay, some people choose to be gay so people just want to be left the feck alone.
all this time i thought bloody old england was more progressive than us yanks. Apparently most humans are still born ignorant, yet many are still in the closet about it.
keep reading, you'll see what i mean.
This is pointless as there is already a natural cure for being gay, its called AIDS.
The political who banned the ads is a conservative. That may make Americans scratch their heads in confusion, but it makes total sense from a conservative viewpoint. If you say you want less government intrusion, why would you support government intrusion into peoples' private sex lives?
American conservatives should follow this man's example.
Hahaha....that's ridiculous. HE INTRUDED on the right of the group to post the ad. THAT is NOT less government. So, there is only one thought or idea allowed to be expressed....the one that London's government feeds it's people. Who knows, maybe homosexuality is a choice. We aren't all knowing beings yet. One more point for the thought police.
To Jim-3113262: What means Conservative in England is not the definition of Conservative in America. And this is Government interference to have a Mayor pull an add.
In other words, "tolerance" only extends to politically correct issues. Everyone else can go to hell. So long freedom of speech.
Conservative is conservative. America's conservatism is ridiculous in the extreme, and it has made us the laughing stock of the civilized world.
Freedom of speech is always limited. Any decent persons in our American government who refused to allow inflammatory ads attacking black people, for example, would be doing their jobs properly. These ads were insulting - homosexuality is most definitely NOT a choice, so it is NOT a sin, and it cannot be "cured" or "treated".
Some of the state-side organizations that recommend banning "gay cures" are the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Medical Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics.
It is the duty and responsibility of government to forbid certain types of hateful speech.
@Jim-3113262
Sounds like you just did a complete 180 on government intrustion. Liberals are such hypocrites.
In a free society, people should be allowed to say what they want, even if it "offends" others. There aren't any threats being made here, it is perfectly allowable free speech.
They are not born gay, they chose that lifestyle . Look at what happen to Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lots wife turned into a piller of salt because she looked back.Why look back at SIN?It is an ABOMINATION of the Lord thy God , course some people don't believe in God .
Some people are gay, just like some people are white... Get over it!
Susan I know this might sound rude but can you really believe in something no one can see or are you just a complete religious spewing idiot? Besides being gay isn't really a life style most choose. And on another case of religion. How many times in the bible (And this goes for everyone who reads it) has it contradicted itself? The bible is almost like a little contract with the non-visable fine print until someone points it out to you.
You dont want to sound rude then you go out of your way to personally insult someone. Then go out of your way to personally insult an entire group of people? How are you any different than the ads you claim to not like? Isnt your intolerance the same? Or is tolerance only ok if it is politically correct? What your post did was the exact thing you rail against. Think before you post. Have a nice day.
Susan: So, please enlighten us about your thought process when you "choose" to be straight. Did you like both sexes, read the bible and say, well, I'm supposed to be straight so I'll only like the opposite sex?
The problem with all these arguments is that people are speaking different languages when it comes to talking about being "gay." To the Christian fundies the idea of being "gay" is if you have gay sex. So, they think they can "cure" someone if they convince them that they will rot in hell if they have gay sex, so only have straight sex. The problem with that concept is that all it does is hide what one is truly thinking. If one is "attracted" to members of the same sex, no amount of counseling will change that. The only thing counseling (read: brainwashing) will do is convince someone not to act on it. If they don't act on it does that mean they are no longer gay? The answer is yes to those who concentrate on the end result. The answer is no to those who concentrate on what is going on inside a person's head.
Buses have 'gay cured me' from the airlines! It reminds me of that June Allyson's flick "You Can't Run Away From It"!
Susan, you have just proven you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about when you use ANYTHING religious to justify your position. It shows you lack the ability to have any kind of rational thought and just parrot things that you have been told to parrot by some religious leader who probably has a hard time understanding that the world isn't flat.
This is sooooo gay
Don't apply American standards to other countries. The First Amendment doesn't apply to the UK.
Homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuality is not natural; i.e., abnormal sexual behavior. Homosexuality should be against the law.
It is a shame that anyone who opposses this abnormal behavior is subjected to centure. If you do not agree, support, or keep quiet about your beliefs, the homosexual community and supporters will cry 'Hate, homophobia, intolerance, and discrimination,' in an effort to silence the voices who believe that homosexuality is wrong.
Homosexuals and their supporters try and make it look like they are just anyone else and that it is just about being able to cohabitate equally. This is a lie! It is too bad too many folks have bought into this lie and have quit fighting against the movement.
A lot of people do not realize that the indoctrination has already started in pre-school years with your children. If you voice your legal opinion that the homosexuality is wrong and you don't want your children exposed to it in public schools, you are likely to wind up in jail. Your only choice to keep your children from being exposed to the idea the homosexuality is wrong is to remove your children from public schools.
Also, one would do well to start looking into the troubles this life CHOICE has made for these 'loving couples' and you will see a very dark picture in terms of disease, domestic violence, and how these will spill over into main stream society.
Witchrunner: It seems so preposterous to state that sexuality, a behavior, is only a matters of gene. Certainly you must admit that all behaviors humans perform are influenced to a certain extent by our surroundings and culture. Homosexuality is no different. So no, it is not like skin color (which you truly cannot change). You do choose it, even if most of the time it is a subconscious choice. Otherwise, once you are honestly gay or heterosexual you will never be able to switch. Yet, there are people who do.
Of course, as with everything, there are people who cannot see themselves as being anything else as they are now. For them, being gay/heterosexual comes natural to them and will never in their life change. For them, it is so natural that they do not even consider it being a choice. But since there are honest exceptions, people who actually make choices about sexuality, to repeat ad infinitum the generalization "gay is not a choice" only constrains people to choose one side.
Regardless of whether one agrees or not. In a fair and equal society there is always a problem if both sides of an issue cannot be voiced.
I think they should allow the signs to be shown on the 25 buses for 2 weeks. What harm can it do? Closed minded homophobes will not be swayed. Homosexuals will not believe the signs. Everyone else could care less. It would make no difference at all. As the article mentioned, there was a pro-positive gay message posted on these buses. Fair is fair.
Concerned citizen, I wonder when you made the conscious decision to be straight. I know I made no conscious decision to be gay. I would wonder why anyone would choose to be gay with all the hatred and discrimination involved. I myself became aware of my sexual orientation for sure around when I was 12, about the time most of my male friends were discovering girls and female friends were discovering males. But even before that, I was aware something inside of me made me feel different than what my friends were talking about. I was never molested, and both my parents were hetero. Life is too tough as it is rather then making such a choice. Other than who we love, we are no different than you in most areas of life. Some of the outrageous behavior you see is acting out out of defiance of how you chose to treat gay people. I see many examples of straight people being outrageous everyday too as in displays of public affection (open mouthed kisses with tongue in public places, grab ass play and outrageous chauvinistic pick-up lines to mention a few). Then there is the discriminating attitudes many of you have towards women.
Homsexuality is wrong and it is a CHOICE.
The reason some people refuse to see it as a choice is that they enjoy being a homsexual too much, even though they know it is wrong.
The Tyler Clementi suicide is one emample of someone knowing it is wrong to 'feel' an attraction to another of the same sex as one's self.
One does not have to go very far to see the numbers of homosexuals who 'medicate' their pain--i.e., guilt--away. Or others who just cannot live with error of their way and just end it all.... Check it out....
Yeah switchblade-2693948 , homosexuality is wrong.
For most people its a chosen lifestyle and for others, well ... they may be "born with the tendancy" for a variety of reasons. However, the fact still remains that homosexuality is not normal, that is why two men(gays) or two women(lesbians) can not pro-create. That is why, gays and lesbians have to revert to God's original plan to have a child .....yep (man + woman=baby). :-D
Can one "get over being gay"? well, i belive is possible, but its not just a mind over matter thing, its involves a spiritual aspect....the GOD factor. And I dont mean allah, buddah, and the yadahhyadahh gods out there, i mean the One and true God ...The God whose Son is Jesus.
The Homosexual act is wrong, Get over it already!
Switchblade, homosexuality is NOT a choice. You're obviously straight, so how can you say what is going on inside a gay person? To be rational about it, if being gay is a choice, then so is being straight. When did you decide to be straight instead of gay? You must choose each day to not be attracted to people of the same sex, right? There are people who have a difficult time with who they are because society has many people like you who make them feel worthless. What we need is people like you to STOP the mindless ranting and treat people with respect. Then those at risk wouldn't feel bad about who they are. If anything, it proves even more that it's not a choice.
There are many gays and lesbians who try to "live straight" due to pressure from family and society. They may even get married and have children, all the while feeling like they're living a lie and losing out on actually being in love with the person they're with. This is further proof that it's not a choice. I have been with the same wonderful woman for over 11 years. There's NEVER been any domestic abuse, fighting, etc. We married almost 10 years ago. Our marriage has been a perfect union. No cheating. No walking away from the other person, etc. Our life IS very much like any other married couple... minus the cheating, drama, divorce, fighting, etc. I LOVE my wife. I would lay down my life for her without thought or question at any moment. Every single thing I do takes her into consideration and is for her benefit. We've raised children together.. very well adjusted children. There is no doubt we will spend the rest of our lives together... just as happy as we've always been.
Straight people can rant about how it's "immoral" and how it's "unnatural" (do some reading on homosexuality in the animal kingdom). To us, being straight is "unnatural". As for those who have committed suicide all I can say is that's on the hands of all the people like you. Your hate and intolerance and lack of the slightest bit of respect for another human being is what makes some people unable to cope. They think too much about what others say and they KNOW they cannot change... it's just who they are. Instead of stating "they choose this" why don't you ASK gays and lesbians if they've chosen who they are. We didn't ask to be born this way. We were born to straight parents. As for public school, let me tell you something. I have kept each and every child of mine OUT of sex ed class because they either ignore homosexuality or they condemn it. I want my children to never be ashamed of who they are. (They are all straight, BTW) I don't want them to learn hate. So while you may pull your kids out because they're being fair and teaching with an open mind, there are those of us doing the same because of people teaching with a closed mind. Talk of "indoctrination" and "gay agenda" makes the gay community laugh. There is no such thing. We're simply trying to live our lives. We have enough to worry about. People are who they are. There is no reason or wish to "create" other gays. Do you honestly think that we could make you gay?? Can I talk you into it? Of course not! You were born who you are... just like us. Use some logic if you want to make an argument. Simply saying that you know what someone else is going through or thinking when you have no way to know that is purely ignorance shining through. Educate yourself. Get to know some gay people and have an open mind. I think you'll find that you already know a few gay people.
One word Censorship. I guess London doesn't respect freedom of speech the same way we do. I can understand not putting nudity or profanity on a sign for the public. But banning something because it presents an idea you don't like. Flat out censorship.
Blondie.. your argument holds no water. Religion isn't an argument against how someone is born. How many times have you had sexual relations with a woman? Did you like it and then 'decide' to be straight because you knew it was wrong?? There is nothing wrong with loving someone. There is something wrong with hating someone. How many gays have you talked to in order to come to the conclusion that "for most people it's a chosen lifestyle"? I guess that you also believe that straight people who can't conceive are "unnatural" and "immoral"? After all, you're limiting human relationships to sexual acts that end in pregnancy. We are evolved mammals. We don't have to pop out more of us to be 'normal'. Gays and lesbians can have children in many ways without having sex with the opposite sex. Check that out sometime. It's not all about children, though. It's about true love. The kind that makes your heart skip a beat no matter how many years you spend together, and a commitment that lasts a lifetime. Those that speak only about "procreation" and religion are being very narrow minded. Sex is no more important in a gay relationship than in a straight one. Educate yourself. Stop harming others, which is what you're doing by speaking in such a way on a subject you know nothing about.
wow blonde smart chick you clearly are anything but. By your logic procreation is the end result of marriage. What about married people that chose not to have kids? You are extemely naive in referring to talks of other religions as yadahhyadahh whatever. Even if you believe that, you should respect other peoples lifestyle choices. I didnt chose to be straight. I don't remember choosing the sex i was attracted to. and homosexual is wrong for who? you? cus its right for other people because there are 6 billion people here that are different human beings. YOU get over it.
switchblade you are perhaps more ignorant in your post then your sheepish followers... It should be agains the law? The govt has absolutely NO place in my bedroom or anyone elses bedroom. Homosexuals "End it" because they feel like outsiders from the group. not only do they live lives outside the norm of society which is lonely enough, some never feel truly accepted and understood by their own family. Prime reasons ANYONE commits suicide. Reaching much? o and one more thing, your last two sentences can very easily apply to heterosexual partners as well. Lest you forget there is almost a 50 percent divorce rate with hetero couples. Plenty of heterosexuals have terrible relationships. my parents are one of those. Im happy my kids will be taught tolerance in schools.
Lastly, you right wingers will never cease to amaze me. you truly baffle me. You constantly voice that govt needs to stay out of your life whenever possible but when it comes to abortion and gay rights, boy do you want govt interference! hypocracy at its finest.
The bible also says in 2nd timothy that women can be beaten by their husbands with a stick thats smaller than a finger. also the bible states that slaves must obey their masters. sounds like interesting reading to me....
@ jag24659
While I hear what you are saying, but you are taking an awful lot upon yourself by the above quote. How do you know what my education is? How do you know what I have experienced? How do you know I don't know a lot of gay people? How do you know whether or not I myself once was gay but have been delievered?
I spent the best part of the last two years being very involved in student government as a senior student--over 40--at a community college. There I was exposed to a lot of gay people. I love some of them very much.
However, I cannot nor will I stop shouting from the roof tops that homosexuality is wrong and should not be tolerated by society. You can live together, conjugate, and live the lie as being a happy couple. There are no law prohibiting you from these things. However, do not try to say this is normal or seek equality through marriage laws. There is a reason a man has his parts and a woman has hers. They were designed that way by a master bio-engineer; i.e., creator.
As far a sexual education in schools, I must agree with your action on this. Sexual education does not belong in public schools. Sexual education should be taught in homes and churches. This gets the goverment out of people's sex lives!
@ jag24659
I have always loved this dicussion. It is one of my favorite.
I am all ears for being educated on how two sperms can become on child! Or, how two eggs can become one child....does not happen in this world.
Waiting eagerly for a response.
Your lack of any real facts and the pure lies that you've posted about 'how gays live' is why I think you're uneducated in this topic. Also, you can't have it both ways. You can't speak so hatefully of homosexuals then claim to 'love them'. Again, you're making things up by saying "live the lie as being a happy couple". How can you judge who is happy and who isn't? Equality is in the constitution. DOMA contradicts this, and is in violation of the 14th amendment.
You can believe in a creator, but not all people do. I believe that the bible is a work of fiction. There is NO scientific proof that there is any god, heaven, hell, etc. So saying that everyone should live their lives in accordance with YOUR beliefs is fundamentally wrong. I do not ask others to live their lives in accordance with my beliefs. Those 'parts' you speak of also work very well in a homosexual relationship. ;) BTW, being "exposed" in public to gays doesn't mean you know anything about them or their lives, their hopes, desires, feelings, etc.
If you were "once gay and have been delivered" then you should know better than to post the lies you've posted. I also don't believe it's possible to stop being gay. You can stop having relationships, but you are who you are. I would never wish anyone to be anything but what they are. It causes all kinds of emotional and mental problems. Maybe that's your issue? I don't know, but people who promote such intolerance and hate (enough to even say that gays are lying about being in loving relationships) and then have the gall to talk about their god... there are only two words that come to mind. Christian Taliban.
Children? Adoption of those that straight people couldn't care for, didn't want, or abused. Artificial insemination, etc. However, there are some people who don't want children... and that's just fine, too. The straight people do a great job of overpopulation and abandoning their offspring or abusing them. Science will always have a way to create more humans. However, children aren't a sticking point as to who you are or who you love.
switchblade: google surrogate. Plenty of straight couples use them too. In the case of gay couples, sometimes they can use genetic material from both couples.
@ ashp
I know there was more the above quote; however, I would like to make a point or one you might consider: Should I respect a pedifile's lifestyle, a zoophile's lifestyle, or a necrophile's lifstyle? I don't accept any of these lifstyles nor do I respect them. I feel about the above listing things the same way I feel about homosexuality.
pedophiles prey on children. that is different then two consenting adults. people having sex with animals? uh i think thats also impeding on the rights of another, in this case the animal. Necrophilia? uh thats also wrong because the other adult isn't consenting. It is an issue of consent and both parties being willing.
@ BlondeSmartChick_1981
Don't let the detractors beat you down! You did good. Keep speaking the truth. It is all we can do!
Your 'slippery slope' argument isn't even valid. MOST pedophiles are STRAIGHT folks. Homosexuals aren't hurting anyone or violating anyone. You're grasping at straws now. I wonder... if you're really and truly stuck on people following the laws of your religion, why aren't you working to make divorce illegal? How much time and energy do you put into stopping priests from raping children? Do you 'shout from the rooftops' about all of these issues? It seems to me that people like you only make a lot of noise about gays... but are often silent on your own sins and those of the straight people.
This is for BlondeSmartChick 1981 and for all those who mistakenly think gays cannot procreate
Now hear this -
Adult fibroblasts can currently be reprogrammed using transcription factors to become induced pluripotent stem cells, which work like embryonic stem cells and carry the DNA of the cell donor. These induced cells can be deliberately differentiated by biologists into any other type of cell, including oocytes and spermatozoa. Indeed, this has already been done. This technology gives same-sex couples the potential to procreate, to have a true biological child.
A “male mother” or “female father” would donate skin cells, which get reprogrammed into stem cells and differentiated into “male eggs” or “female sperm”. The rest is just straightforward in vitro fertilization.
There are caveats. Any male eggs that contain a Y chromosome would have to be discarded (to avoid the nonviable Y-Y chromosomal pairing), and the male mother would have to supply the mitochondrial DNA (because it always comes from the mother). A gay couple would need a surrogate mother to carry their child, but could produce both sons and daughters. A lesbian couple could only produce daughters (because females only produce X-chromosomes), but either parent could carry a daughter to term (or both could, which would yield fraternal twins from different wombs, including the father’s womb).
So the procreation argument against same-sex marriage is moot.
@ ashp
With this argument all I see is that "it takes two." To me, that makes two people wrong!
And, consent can happen with pedophilia. The case in CA with the high school teacher--Hooker--and his young female student. She must have consented to him before she was 18. But this is not a good example of the point I am trying to make.
My point is that people have desires. Just because a person has a desire does not make it right. For many years, in this country, homosexuality has not been accepted and has been unlawful. So, what has changed?
I will post about surrogates here in a minute.
Switchblade says
Homosexuality has never been illegal in the USA. The Supreme Court has ruled that gay sex acts are protected by the Constitution, and that states may not pass laws against gay sex acts.
Also, consent cannot "happen with pedophilia". Legal consent cannot be given by a minor.
@ ashp and Jim-3113262
Ok, if it is so 'natural' for homosexuals to live together and have 'happy loving homes' and 'have loving children,' why is that in 1888 that homsexuals were not having children? Becuse you have to get a microscope and needles involved in your process.
This arguement sort of reminds me of transgenders..."I was born in the wrong body, so I will mutilate my genitals into what I FEEL they should be..." Just cause you can does not make it right!
In my opinion, this statement destroys your arguement that procreation among homsexuals is natural. Again, back in 1888 women were having both male and female children.
My point is that this procreation, as you call it, is nothing more than science trying to reproduce nature. It is not normal. Neither is the homosexual lifestyle.
It is interesting to note that in all this science, it still takes a female to bring froth a child no matter what pairing you chose... It still goes back to the garden of Eden when Adam decided to name his wife Eve, because she was the MOTHER of all living.
Two males cannot have a baby without a female!
ya instead men back in 1888 would have "families" with women and go have sex with men. that sounds much better.
@ Jim-3113262
I think you might want to look up sodomy and check out that law and how it was applied.However, I have taken the liberty to quote from Wikipedia:
So, you see my friend, homosexuality was against the law, for the most part, until 1962.
You are describing artificial ways of making a baby. This is not the same as procreating, but more like cloning in that it is an artificial and UNNATURAL way of making a baby. Sexuality is just the desire to reproduce and homosexuals have linked it to an unresolved oral/anal fixation that most people outgrow in infancy. Most homosexuals are pedophiles I think based on the things I have seen. When I was a kid they were always in the park soliciting young boys and leaving messages in the bathroom that "they could make you a real man". It was so bad at the Liberty Memorial, it was known as "Fag Park" when I was a kid. All of the priests that molested the boys were homosexual and it was the homosexual culture that pervaded the American Catholic church that allowed it to continue for so long. I read an article in the newspaper in the early 80s written by a group of Catholic priests and lay people complaining of all the homosexuals who were using the priesthood to hide their activity. Young men are less likely to speak out about thier abuse then girls are. This is clearly shown by behavioural studies on sex and other abuse on young people. Young men do not want to be percived as unable to protect themselve and make great victims for the gay predator.
ok
At that time, sodomy was anything that wasn't missionary position sex between a male and female. Nonetheless, the acts didn't specifically mention homosexuality.
The word "Sodomy" comes from Sodom and Gomorrah, 2 cities which were destroyed in the Bible. According to Ezekiel, these cities were destroyed for not helping the poor and needy.
Milgram - yes, the method is "artificial", but that's the point. You cannot pass laws against artificial insemination, because such laws would discriminate against couples with fertility issues. Nobody is actually doing this, but potential is the only thing that counts.
I'm a gay man, but I'm also a civil libertarian, so I make it a point to defend freedom of expression, even when it's not in my interest to do so. That said, I honestly don't see that argument as applicable here; in no political jurisdiction have mass-transit advertisements ever been considered a public forum.
Furthermore, in a liberal democracy, government should be separate from any and every religious organization and or institution; in a true secular state, the ads wouldn't have been run regardless of their content, for the sole fact it was a christian organization behind them. And isn't it interesting that from this point a double standard rises in right-wing circles; that is, would as many conservatives be crying foul if it were an islamic organization?
@ jag24659
Hmmmmmm.....'slippery slope argument?'
I think you may have taken what I was trying to communicate out of context.
The point I was trying to make was not whether a pedophile's are straight or homosexual. The point is whether or not to accept the LIFESYLE of a pedophile or give respect to a pedophile.
My point is that most everyone agrees is that there is no cure for a pedophile and once there is an attaction to much younger people that attraction ver seldom goes away. That is why we have a sex offender registry.
However, just because pedophilia is against the law does not mean that people do not have those feelings or urges. They want to act out on those urges and society has said, "You will not act out on those feelings and urges." Society has further stated that, "If you act out on those feeling and urges, we will take your freedom away."
The point being that feelings, desires, LOVE, and wants should not be the determining factor whether a lifestyle is right or wrong.
Milgram's experiment makes an interesting point: CLONING!
As applied to Jim-3113262 contribution to humans being born by mixing certain cells from each same sex parent.
But I wonder if such a human being coming into this world using those methods could reproduce themselves?
We know for a fact that cloned sheep and other animals cannot procreate.
Interesting.
@ Jim-3113262
Actually, Sodom and Gomorrah is first mentioned in Genesis chapter 18 and then again in chapter 19. Genesis chapter 19:1-29 describes Sodom and Gomorrah and their destruction.
However, the cities were destroyed because of the wickedness in those cities and most would agree that it was because of their sexual practices:
Milgram.. You're incorrect about pedophiles being gay. Also, if you want to get on the "artificial insemination is unnatural" I think you need to realize that MOST of the women who go this route are straight with fertility issues. I think they'd disagree with you in a huge way. If you feel that sexuality is ONLY the desire to reproduce I feel sorry for you. Sex is much more than that...to those of us that are human anyway. Here's another news flash... straight people engage in oral and anal sex. However, relationships are based on much, much more than just the act of sex. You're using pedophile and gay as being the same thing, which they are not. I don't know where you got your info. from, but you really need to look again.
Switchblade.. you are using the slippery slope argument.... if we accept homosexuals, then should we accept pedophiles, etc? NOT the same thing. Not even close. In determining what is 'right and wrong', there are too many factors to go into. However, 2 consenting adults who love each other isn't wrong by definition. You're basing your opinion that it's wrong based on a religion that not everyone believes and false assumptions of an entire group of people. There is a HUGE difference between saying "In my opinion it's wrong" and saying "It's wrong". One group of people making decisions on whether or not it's OK for another group of people to live their lives as they want and need to based on their opinion (which seems to always be linked to religion) is NOT ok. I think you need to spend some time thinking about how you'd feel if the shoe were on the other foot. I know you probably won't, but it's something that I'd encourage everyone to do. What if you were told that your husband/wife, etc. and you were lying about being happy? What if you were told your relationship was immoral and the only way to get around this was to engage in a relationship with someone of the same sex? How happy would you be? How would you feel about the whole "ick" factor? Not putting much thought into things before condemning others isn't a very human thing to do.
Wow. Just on this thread alone, there's so many idiots (I can and will use that term) that I want to reply to, I don't even know where to start anymore. People, DO THE *)(*)&%#(*@Q^ RESEARCH! It's NOT a choice to be gay. You can't wake up one morning and say, "Oh, I think I'll be gay today". You're BORN that way. I really wish I would have looked up the articles, although I'm sure they would have been ignored or debunked. There IS NO CHOICE. I grew up with friends that were either gay or lesbian, and they tried to be straight, because that's what was expected of them. I have FAMILY that is the same way. They tried being straight, and couldn't. None of us held that against them.
As for the bible thumpers... Do you know that a high percent of gay people are Christians (believe in God)? Now, if being gay is sooooooo wrong, how can that be? And please don't tell me it's for the misguided belief that they can save their soul. I don't believe in that crap, and have disproved it before, I'm not getting into that right now. It's about the believing, and they do.
For those who don't think that they should have equal rights, WHY NOT??? Shall we go down the list of idiots who are straight and screwed marriage up? Britany Spears, being one. Let's see, she was married, what, 72 freaking hours before deciding she wanted a divorce? And she's STRAIGHT! Yeah, good role model. Take a look at the older gays who have come out. Most of them were in a long term relationship. No abuse. No beatings. Just being there for each other, and kids (if present). Look at "straights". Beatings. Abuse. Killings. How are WE any better?
It doesn't make them christians, it makes them agnostic. Learn the difference.
WOW!!! Didn't realize bible-thumpers and homophobes stayed up this late at night?? I guess they'll do whatever it takes to shove their beliefs down people's throats. HEY, how about this....if YOU "choose" not to acknowledge your homosexuality then don't, but don't tell others to stay in the closet merely for appearance sake. 8-} Live, and let live. You don't have to live their lives, just as they don't have to live yours and I bet they're more than relieved knowing that. I'm straight and I wouldn't want to live in your bigoted, unforgiving shoes. So, as the ad states: GET OVER IT!! Next topic, Alex.
No. If they believe in the God of the Christian faith, they are Christians (well, actually only if they also believe that Jesus was the son of God. Otherwise they're Jewish). Agnostics are people who either are unsure if there is a god, or are sure that they are not so damned important as to know if there is or is not. Maybe you should learn the difference before you start dictating to others about it.
@ jag24659
I was not referring to ACCEPTANCE. The argument goes that we should respect the lifestyle of other people's choices.
The homosexual says he has "FEELINGS, ATTRACTION, LOVE, etc..." for someone of people of the same sex. Therefore, it must be normal or I would not feel this way.
As I pointed out in another post, homosexuality had been looked at as an abnormal behaviour up until about 1962 when the laws started slowly to be changed. This does not discount the fact that homsexuality had not been around since before the Mayflower landed on Plymouth Rock. However, just because homosexuality existed does not make it right.
You are right in that two adults who love each other isn't wrong. I love lots of people but I am not living with them or having sex with them. But, I get your meaning. And, I am not saying that there is not a genuine love between homosexuals. But genuine love does not make the lifestyle choice right.
One might say, I really love my 1st cousin of an opposite sex.That love does not gve me the right to cohabitate as man and wife with my 1st cousin. Or, to make the example a little more realistic, I meet the person of the opposite sex of my dreams! We go down for the blood test (in days when they did those!), or they do a DNA test (if that were the case) and we find out that we are brother and sister or 1st cousins or too closely related. What happens then. The law says we cannot get married. The point being that my love for another person, no matter how strong, does not make living with someone as SPOUSE right.
And you are most certainly correct about religion and my belief in God. It is the pinacle of why I believe that homosexual marriage should not be allowed.
I believe that homosexuality will cause a great deal of harm to our society because basically the homosexual lifestyle is dynamically opposed to God. Once God is dismissed from the conscious, every moral and right belief has nothing to stand on. That is why I bring in the comparison of pedophila, zoophila, and necrophila. What is wrong with the latter three if I feel that way? Should NAMBLA go out and start getting laws changed so men can have boys? Where is one going to draw the line and why?
The Tolerance needs to be BOTH ways. If a group can go around and say were gay and proud of it, then a group can go around and say we were gay and went straight and proud of it.
What is a bus of blacks went around and said black is beautiful and proud of it, then another bus went around with whites, saying whites are beautiful and proud of it. Think that would get some stuff started ?
I see most racist and bigots on the left side
switchblade-2693948
your comments and posts are laughable. You are basically nothing more than a religious christian terrorists using your beliefs in god to influence others. Its pathetic that in 2012, we still have bigots like you in the world.
Since you seem to think that the gay life style goes against god.. here are some other things that go against god as well. The bible says i can own you as a slave... when can we make this happen?
Enjoy:
www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-2945.html
Dear Dr. Laura
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend
the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other
specific laws and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is,
how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don.t agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room
here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn.t we just burn them to
death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with
their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)
You are 100% entitle to exercise your freedom of speech and I respect your religious beliefs. But they do not nor will they ever override secular law. If you think otherwise, I suggest you move to a country where religion is the law.. Iran perhaps?
@ ItsAboutTime-3704531
hmmmm..... I don't see much of an argument here. However, there is plenty of hate, non-acceptance, and intolerance.
But I would remind you that until recently, homosexuality was against the law. Perhaps, you might consider moving to Canada where same sex marriage has been legal for the whole country since 2003. Or, you might consider moving to South America were same sex marriage has been legal since 2006.
In any case, homosexuality has not been accpted by most states and most countries.
I will continue to let my voice be heard loud and clear: HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG! HOMOSEXUALITY HAS NO PLACE IN AMERICA!
I will vote AGAINST any politician who voices an oppion or votes pro homosexual. I will vote FOR any politician who opposes homosexuality.
I will continue to support to the American Family Association.
I will NOT patronize or do business with any company that supports or participates in any pro-homosexual event or activities.
Switchblad, Susan, Blonde,
Your bible thumping hatred is just another reason for the mass exodus of intelligent people from the bigoted and hateful cultism called religion. I have yet to find a religion that can profess love from one side of it's mouth without spewing hate out the other. Typical. If I were gay, I would just tell you that my lifestyle is NOYFB (none of you f*ing business). So BIOYA (blow it out your a**).
@ Switchblade-2693948.
You are right, there isn't much of an argument. There is plenty of hate, non acceptance, and intolerance that mostly comes from religious bigots and zealots like yourself. Isn't it ironic, that some of the loudest Christian voices speaking against homosexuality are the ones who are engaged in it? lol, gotta love it huh...
I will remind you, that homosexuality was never a problem in the world, until the Christian faith deemed it as a problem. 53% of americans now support gay marriage and when the United States Supreme Court hears this case and decides in "FAVOR" of equal rights as guaranteed by the United States Consitution, we will proclaim that this incredible nation is now in the 21st century.
By all means, keep using your first amendment rights to speak and let your voice be heard. That's exactly the thing that helps edge us closer to equal rights. When you spew your intolerance for homosexuality, it further strengthens our resolve and continues to enlighten others on how views like your own are completely unorthodox, unfounded, and no longer in line with the future of this nation. Oh, and when can I own you as a slave.. the bible says I can...
P.S. Look around you... I am willing to bet, a neighbor, co worker, the person that serves you a restaurant, a store clerk that scans your groceries, a stranger walking down the street passing you, or anyone else may be a homosexual, and you don't even know it.. The best part of it is.. there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it.
Thanks for your comments, I needed a good laugh today.
@ jag24659
This is an example of what I was referring to in my earlier post #1.53. This is right off the front page of MSN.Com. today.
http://now.msn.com/now/0412-german-incest-ruling.aspx
@ ItsAboutTime-3704531
A homosexual keeping their homosexuality to themselves and not letting everyone know they are homosexuals, including me, is a very good thing. I hope to keep it that way!
As for me, I don't care who knows I am straight. I will tell everyone around me, neighbor, co worker, the person that serves me at a resaurant, a store clerk that scans my groceries, a stranger walking downt the street passing me, or anyone else I am straight. I am not ashamed of being straight.
hmmmm....you must not have done much research on that statement because as of right now there are only two contries in the whold world that recognize homosexuality in its entirety. Most of the African governments don't allow homosexuality in any form and a couple of them have the death penalty attached to homosexuality.
As far as Christianity, the faith has been around for over 2000 years.... if you will do a little research, you will find most of the whole world had laws against homosexuality until the early 1900's. Therefore, that gives Christianity a few years on the pro homosexual crowd and calls your statement misleading.
The jury is still out on how SCOTUS will rule on prop 8 and DOMA. I am saying they will keep the current laws in place and give the will of the people their say.
Well said switch blade. As for people just saying its bible thumpers who are the haters or discriminate, what if it was bible thumpers ? What if a person who is atheist, or agnostic, just doesnt see 2 people of the same sex being with each other as appropriate ? If you say they NEED accept the lifestyle, then you are no different from them, because now your pushing your belief, and saying people NEED to accept anothers way of life and views. So now who are the bigots on here ?
How about me ? I dont care what gays do, but I have every right to not accept their lifestyle, but I dont go out of my way opposing it, or standing with picket signs. I have the right to choose politicians who also dont accept the gay lifestyle. Regardless is a person is religious or not, whether if its from a biblical point of view, or a scientific point of view people who think its a harmful lifestyle, there are many reasons for people not to like it. Everyone has a right to believe or feel what they want. No one has a right to tell any how they should believe or feel.
@ DamonWV
Well said my freind! That is exactly what I have been trying to communicate.
I don't really have a say what people do behind the doors of their homes. It really is between them and their creator.
But this whole 'equal' rights thing is more than just allowing homosexuals to get married. I believe it is about MANDATING that people accept their lifestyle as normal.
We have already experienced some of what is to come if SCOTUS strikes prop 8 and DOMA as unconstiutional. There are places in Canada where a preacher, priest has spoken against homosexuality and has come under scrutiny of that government. This is very dangerous because now you have the government involved in religion. And make no mistake about it, the United States government will be involved in religion if homosexuals are granted equal rights. They already have in the David Parker case.
@ all who love to hate what i have to say :-D
Well, just because homosexuality is increasingly being taken as "normal", doesnt mean that it is. A common view does not equal that its right. The media have done a darn good job of de-sensitizing people concerning the akwardness of the act.
Dont get me wrong, i dont hate people who practice homosexuality, i just will not justify the act ...no sireee. Look, iam not trying to shove the bible down y'all throats ...iam just stating facts
1) man + woman= perfect fit , (man + man) =(woman +woman)= huh ?!? Sexual oragns are designed the way they are for a reason ....
2)man+woman=child , else no kid....
I am just sayin' .....
I would also like to interject something for those of you who dont think your hypocrites. In a side story about a half brother and sister getting together. Im not supporting this either, but I am curious to see the stigma of the topic.
http://now.msn.com/now/0412-german-incest-ruling.aspx?_p=d8b96ac9-33f0-467b-a523-75c06a0ce9ec&_nwpt=1
This goes in line with defining who is supposed to be with who. If accepting gay lifestyle is part of the normal now and politically correct , then there should be no reason to not accept this relationship. Yes having children is bad because of the genetics so close between the two. BUT what if she was fixed, or he was fixed to where they couldn't have any kids what so ever. Does it now make it an acceptable relationship ? If having offspring is the only issue with two people loving each other then dont have kids. If anyone on here pushes for people to accept gay lifestyle, then you better be supportive of these people wanting to be together , if not your a Bigot. If you say its sick that they are together, then now you know how people feel who are opposed to the gay lifestyle, and now your part of the supposed hypocrite group as well.
@ Switchblade-2693948
You honestly think that people keep their sexual orientation to themselves because they are ashamed? If that’s what you truly think, then I think you are flattering yourself by your own statement. I am not afraid to tell anyone I am gay and could care less if they like me or not.
First, your statement of ‘recognize homosexuality’ in it’s entirely is so nebulous that is here no research available or that. However, I have done my research and Its VERY clear there is more than one country in the world that recognizes same sex marriages. See the link below. Also, those countries that do have the death penalty attached to them are mostly Islamic nations in which RELGION is the state law. Are you suggesting that we make Christian Law over the United States Secular Law?
Secondly, even America’s largest corporations offer same sex benefits and support gay marriage as well. This country is already moving in the direction to accept gay marriage and have laws that support it.
I have done my research, apparently though, you haven’t. Homosexuality was around long before Christianity even came into the world. It existed in Egypt, Greece, and the Roman Empire to name only a few. There were NO laws on the books of those countries that said being homosexual was illegal was there? If there is, please by all means produce it. There is also no law in the United States Constitution that says being homosexual is illegal now is there? Where is it, please point that out as well. Since you seem to be so well versed in this subject, why don’t you go back for 2000 years and produce documentation that supports countries that had laws about homosexuality.
The jury is still out on how SCOTUS will rule on prop 8 and DOMA. I am saying they will keep the current laws in place and give the will of the people their say.
The Supreme Court will decide if prop 8 or DOMA are constitutional. As for leaving it to the will of the people? If we did that, Women wouldn’t have gotten the right to vote, blacks would never have gotten the right to vote or had equal rights in this country. Apparently, you do not know very much about civil rights laws in this country do you?
So, when do I get to own you as a slave? The bible says I can right? If god said it’s okay then I should be able to do it right?
wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_legislation_around_the_world
wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
@switchblade
You got your ass handed to you on the other thread, so you run to this one? Cute. Homosexuality has been documented in 1500+ species, meaning it exists in nature, meaning it is natural. Are you also assuming these species chose to be homosexual, given they lack human ability to reason? Also, your Bible has absolutely no place in the conversation. Not everyone follows your religion, nor can you prove it to be the only option.
@BlondeSmartChick
See above for the definition of normal. You're welcome to believe what you want, but I'd be careful who you associate with here. Switchblade has stated his willingness to die for his belief that homosexuality is wrong, and he has yet to disprove any of the allegations that he may be willing to take others with him in doing so.
BlondeSmartChick_1981 - I respect yours and everyone elses opinion on homosexuality. I do not have the right as a gay man to tell you what you can and cannot believe. I truly do not care if you or anyone else in this country accepts homosexuality as normal or not. What I do care about is ensuring this country gives equal rights to everyone regardless of their sexuality. I do care about when people preach out and say that homosexuality is wrong and a young teenager commits suicide.. because society says they are NOT NORMAL. Do you really think that we as a society should continue to allow this to happen in 2012?
@ allswell
If you say so...it must be right.
Although, I don't believe I was loosing the debate as much as someone with an inflated ego saying he was winning.
Besides, I had to leave the other thread. The seeder was threatening to ban me, unfairly, I might add.
@ ItsAboutTime-3704531
Laws... http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/
Only one reference but a fair synopsis.
I have already stated my position on this: I will NOT patronize or do business with any company that has a pro homosexual agenda, support homosexuality in word or deed, or participate in any pro homosexual event or activity. There are hundreds of thousands like me who take this stand.
Once again, in order to perceive a 'win' in your assertions, you have taken me out of context. I know and fully understand that Christianity has ONLY been around 2000. That is why I mentioned that Christianity has been up on homosexuality for 1900 years.... While not all parts of the world have had strict laws on the books concerning homosexuality since AD or Common Erra....but I was only referring to the last 2012 years...
But, I know full well homosexuality has been around longer than Christianity. Sodom and Gomorrah for example. That is why in Leviticus Moses lays out the law about men lying with men and women lying with women... Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexual acts and perversion.
So what are you going to base right or wrong on, your conscience? My conscience? My sense of right or wrong? Your sense of right or wrong? There has to be an absolute definitve. Otherwise, who is to say this is what we are going to do? I have more military might than you do, so we do it my way. Or, those who have the Gold make the Golden Rule. Are these right?
I beleve that principles from the bible set forth right and wrong. For example, why is murder wrong? Because you say so? I say so? The government says so? If it is the government, who is the government? Where does the government get its authority?
This is a pretty blanket statement. This kind of suggest what allswell was referring to when he said my butt was handed to me...you make an assertion that there is no proof without giving me the benefit of the doubt when, in fact, I was quoting Wikipedia for my source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
The above mentiones source has 7 catagories and there are only two contries that meed all seven catagories, thus I made the statement "..... accept homosexuality in it's entirety."
I agree.......straight marriage is just a slippery-slope to marriage between brothers and sisters in Germany, who for some reason thought they needed to be married to establish familial rights.
Clearly we need to ban marriage between heterosexuals.
I'm going to start a foundation that places anti-straight person ads. Switchblade & Blonde Chick will be exhibit A & B. With using their same reasoning and sweeping generalizations we can reasonably state that anything we personally do not agree with is "wrong". Yay! No more Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Santorum or any of the other so-called "social conservatives" who profess to want less government but need to establish special commissions against what goes on between consenting adults or within women's bodies.
It is a very slippery slope to try to connect a person's sexuality with social ills. I think any amount of research will lead you to the conclusion that most crimes against humanity are conducted by straight people - so again, with your reasoning if straight people make up the vast majority of rapists, then there is something fundamentally wrong with heterosexuality, right?
Oh, and good call Switchblade about banning sex ed in schools. No doubt you are from Kentucky or some other deeply southern locale often featured on Teen Mom.
@ jacquie-4135142
Again, when you want to prove something by sudies and research, you can make the date say what you want it to say. In the above case you would be right because there are millions of more straight people than there are homosexual people so naturally there will be more straight people committing crimes against humanity.
This is an intelligent, well informed, knowlegeable, first hand information, statement. Hmmmmmm......
You called suiciders cowards and attempted to belittle the suicide of an individual. You were lucky you weren't banned the first time you made that claim.
I'll make this easy for you, here are only some of the companies that support LGBT rights:
Morgan Stanley, Subaru, Nordstrom, BP, Intuit, Google, GAP, Sprint, Johnson&Johnson, Allianz, Borders, Yahoo! Inc, Sun Microsystems, Charles Schwab, JC Penny, Prudential, Coors Brewing, Ameriprise, Dell, Electronic Arts, Allstate, AAA, Time Warner, Goldman Sachs, Hewlett-Packard, Starbucks, Citigroup, Global Hyatt, Rubbermaid, American Airlines, Chrysler, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, Sears, Walt Disney, Oracle Corp, Visa, Nationwide, Capital One, Mastercard, Fannie Mae, Volkswagon, Intel, DuPont, Microsoft, Esurance, Abercrombie & Fitch, US Airways, Apple Inc, PG&E gas/electric, Whirlpool, General Motors, Macy's, Kraft Foods, Best Buy, HSBC, AT&T, Toyota, Clorox, Motorola, Adobe Systems, Gamestop, IBM, Coca Cola, Boeing, Lexmark...
I think, by these names, you'll have to stop using computers and the internet to keep your convictions, dude.
I hope you follow the rest of the laws in Leviticus. How's that shellfish taste?
Because murder infringes on the right of another person to live. Ding, done.
@ skrekk
I do not get where you ge they got married to establish familial rights from the article.
And, what does this statement have to do with the premise of the argument or article?
@ switchblade-2693948
LOL. Now that is your most obtuse comment yet on this entire subject. Let's go into an explanation of why shall we?
First, thank you for posting Justinian's Code in 529AD and all the way up to present day. You just completely and without a doubt validated my initial comment that it was Christian religion that made homosexuality a SIN in our culture. It's very clear that before the Christian religion was brought into the world, that older cultures did NOT care about homosexuality and did not feel the need to place laws on it. In fact, the Greeks and Romans encouraged it within their military, as it made their fighting forces even stronger.
Secondly. You are already patronizing companies that support homosexuality. Did you know that GE (the parent owner of NBC/MSNBC) has same sex benefits? So by even posting here on this website you are patronizing a corporation that goes against your own beliefs. Oh, and a few other big corporations that not only have same sex benefits, but support gay marriage: Starbucks, Kroger, Delta Airlines, American Airlines, Continental Airlines, United Airlines, Budweiser, Coors, Coke, Pepsi, Proctor and Gamble (The #1 consumer product company in the world), shall I go on? We thank you for your support.
Next, I am not trying to "WIN" anything here. I am simply pointing out that your beliefs are yours, and they have no bearing what-so-ever on the civil rights for gays/lesbians in the United States of America. You have yet to show me anywhere in the US Consitution where homosexuality is against the law. What you have proven though, is that we should discriminate against homosexuals because they go against your beliefs. I am not asking you either to accept a gay lifestyle as NORMAL in your world. I am asking you to respect that we deserve equal rights and treatment under the laws of this nation. You can preach that it's wrong to the cows come home.. and when a child in this country is murdered or commit suicide because YOU say they are not normal, then you are the one who has blood on your hands, not me. I believe Jesus would say you forgot my core teaching... "Tolerance"
You are entitled to your religious beliefs and if you want to follow 'Gods" word in the bible, that's all fine and dandy, but it does NOT overcede secular laws in the United States. God does not give us our rights, the government does. That's why women got the right to vote and were not longer treated as property. Its why african americans were no LONGER slaves (remember, the bible says we can own slaves), and given civil and equal rights).
Thanks again for using your 1st amendment rights to prove what a claude you really are. :)
@ allswell
Again, I am taken out of context by you and therefore you assert that you have won the debate.... not ture. The point I was making with Leviticus is that homosexuality had been around long before Christ was born. In case you have not heard, Christians are NOT under the Old Testamant law any more.
First of all, I feel you have just violated the COH by calling me a derogatory name and have attacked me peronally.
Secondly, I believe that Income Taxes Infringe on my rights to keep my hard earned money that I earned to support Odumba and his health care law.
I could make the argument that you infringe upon my rights to make remarks about people who jump off bridges. Who is going to say who infringes on who's rights?
Basically, my rights are infringed upon every day. And, it effects my quality of life and how I want to live. Who says someone has a right to live? There have been cultures in the past that have been pretty cruel and people died at the whim of a tyrant.
BlondeChick -
Explain the existence of hermaphrodites, Turner Syndrome, Klinefelter's Syndrome, asexuals, and all other birth defects resulting in deformed genitalia.
You claim sexual organs were designed by God for a reason.
Go -
Like George Takei said, "Saying that someone else's marraige is against your religion is like saying someone else can't eat meat because you're a vegetarian."
I've got to bring up a point that has been on my mind. What is the pragmatic reason for homosexuality being evil? Because God said so? God does everything for a reason right? Again, what is the pragmatic reason for homosexuality being evil? Because gay people can't reproduce? Last I checked this world is over populating with humans. Seems to me that homosexuality is the most humane form of population control, and that is taking such wiley science as artificial insimination into account because not everyone can afford artificial means of reproduction. It's expensive. So, pragmatically, on account of human beings over populating the world, it would seem that homosexuality is a good thing for humanity. If we were in desperate need of expanding our population, then it might be an evil. Right now polygamy seems like the evil sinful thing to do.
What other reasons? Sodomy? Engaging in homosexual sex? What pragmatic reason is there for that to be immoral if it is between two consenting adults?
If they don't actually harm people, then how is it wrong or evil? There must be criterion for something to be evil beyond the "because I/God/this book said so" principle. That principle is arbitrary and has nothing to do with real right and real wrong. The criterion for good and evil should be pragmatic, and not viewed as immuatble laws of the universe. Good and evil are psychological constructs of intelligent beings to regulate actions caused by social interaction. Good and evil don't regulate the universe itself like gravity or cohesion. Therefore good and evil are not immutable and can change based upon the situation. But the change is not, nor should it be chaotic. The change should be determined by pragmatism; what works and what doesn't.
Pragmatically, in today's world, homosexuality should be allowed and polygamy and rampant reproduction should be viewed as evils. The Duggars and people who have 6, 7, 8, ect. kids do more harm to this world than gays.
Ding is an onomatopoeia. A sound.
You have no right to money. You have (in the original documents) a right to property, however all your "hard earned money" is in fact the property of the United States of America. It is given to you as a representation of the value of your contributions.
Right to free speech is already limited by SCOTUS rulings. What's more, by posting on this site you agree to a set of guidelines which include limitations to your freedom of speech. However, you agreed to them, therefore they violate nothing.
So stop posting here if doing so violates your rights to free speech. Its a privately operated space for public discourse, and the owner has the right to set the rules for its use.
@ allswell
I am taken out of context again....what makes you thing I was referring to free speach with my arguement? You make and assumption I was talking about speach or that speach was the specific right to which I was referring. That is not what I was referring to.
Let me know how this works out for you.... this really is a childish reply.... lets be adults here.
Ding is an onomatopoeia. A sound
Two points that I want to raise about that. If Christians are no longer bound by old testament law then:
Furthermore, point me to the place in the Bible (New Testament quote, please) where God commands his followers to enforce his laws and persecute people who break them? It doesn't. If anything it says, "vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord." Christians DO take it upon themselves to enforce God's law as though they were angels of wrath themselves all the freaking time. This is an observation.
I don't really know......you were the one who thought heterosexual consanguineous marriage in a foreign country was somehow relevant to the current topic. It struck me as an incredibly bizarre tangent, and it seemed to undermine whatever point you thought you were making.
ManFromNantucket
“Christians DO take it upon themselves to enforce God's law as though they were angels of wrath themselves all the freaking time.”
Well of course they do after all why should God have all the fun eh? lol
I was only meaning to insult susan I'm sorry if I insulted any christians by speaking the truth though.
Far more adult than you are being. Your currency holds no value unless the government owning it says it does. All you have is your property. In a second the owning government can wipe all your money out by saying it has no value, and moving to a new currency. You do not own your money.
Speaking of childish.
Actually im the one who brought up the argument about heterosexual same family marriage up in comment #1.64. It was to show the way people are with their beliefs on marriage and union.
ManFromNantuket,
Very interesting 1st post. I am a Christian who believes that the Bible is God's word to us. Within it, he chronicles our existence, from creation through the formation of civilization and a developing understanding of what it means to live in relationship with him and one another. In many ways I believe you are quite right in regard to pragmatism. God allowed men to have more than one wife for the purpose of procreation during times of war in which there were too few men relative to women. However, pragmatism has its limits. In the case where moral law is laid out in both the Old and New testaments, pragmatism can't dismiss it. The Holocaust was pragmatic. But, it can't be defended morally. Note: I'm not comparing the holocaust to homosexuality here. I'm just demonstrating the limits of pragmatism as the grand justifier of behavior. You said ...
"If they don't actually harm people, then how is it wrong or evil? Therefore good and evil are not immutable and can change based upon the situation. But the change is not, nor should it be chaotic. The change should be determined by pragmatism; what works and what doesn't."
This is a blend of pragmatism and the seperate idea of "not harming people". Where does this idea come from? What makes it evil? Ultimately, the idea of relative good and evil fails.
I'd like to respond to a few of the points you made and questions you asked.
Biblical law is divided into 3 categories; civil, ceremonial, and moral. The moral laws are central to the character and quality of God as described in both the Old and New Testaments. That is why some laws from the OT are still referenced. Other laws served only the specific cultural context. Those civil laws change throughout the text as people groups shifted from small nomadic groups to larger groups of stationary city dwellers. Like civil law, ceremonial law was required for a certain time. Ceremonial laws protected people from disease and served as reminders of the gravity of disobedience to God. When Jesus was asked "Which commandment is greatest?", he responded by cleverly summarizing the essence of the 10 commandments. Love the Lord your God addresses the first 4 of the 10 while Love your neighbor as yourself summarizes the remaining 6 of the 10. Jesus' response validated the whole of the 10 commandments. This is why the 10 commandments are precious to those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify these things.
Oh, yeah ... you also made another good point regarding those "Christians" who view themselves as the enforcers of God's laws.
The Bible is clear on the following: The purpose of the law is to make us aware of behaviors that God tells us are not beneficial. His purpose is to redirect our behavior toward a full relationship with him. It is not to zap us! Therefore, we shouldn't use his law to zap each other! God has commanded those who put their trust in him to share the good news ... that is, our ability to have a full relationship with thim through Christs sacrificial payment for our wrongdoings. The problem is that too many people focus on the bad news "You're screwed up! You're living in sin!" The truth is that we ALL sin in various ways and to varying degrees. While sin can't be embraced, it should not be the focal point either. Rather, the sin that seperates us from intimacy with our creator has been wiped away if we will accept his payment and submit to his authority in our lives. It is actually much more liberating that I just made it sound. This is the message you should hear from Christians more than any other.
Christianity, as well as other major religions, don't set a very good moral code, IMO. People seem to find many reasons to hate certain groups and interfere in their pursuit of happiness. Anti-gay and "Christian" are nearly completely intertwined.
Switchblade,
You said, " I believe that homosexuality will cause a great deal of harm to our society because basically the homosexual lifestyle is dynamically opposed to God. Once God is dismissed from the conscious, every moral and right belief has nothing to stand on. "
Really?? I am not a Christian, my religion has no "god in heaven" and YET it is a religion based on compassion and love. There is no 'forgiveness' for things you do that are immoral... the price you pay will come to you. There are many religions without Christianity in them that have been around longer which produce people with a fine moral compass and ethics. I found Christianity to not fit my morals and ethics (which I find higher than most). How many Christians talk badly about a group of people? Try to keep them from the same civil rights as others thereby causing them harm? How many do things they *know* are "wrong" and think all's forgiven after a prayer or confession? How many Christians drink alcohol, beat their wives, commit adultery, beat their children, divorce, etc? It still strikes, me, though, how many Christians seem to forget the many other valid religions around the world and think that if you're not Christian you can't possible have a good moral compass? Not to say that *all* Christians fail at their own religion or fail to recognize others... but the numbers that do are shouting loud and clear. West-borough Baptist. They are the most "UN-Christian people I've ever seen. Can't even let people bury their loved ones in piece. Why aren't "real" Christians coming out in droves to condemn their actions?
As for sex being useless or sub-par from straight sex, all I can say is you are so very, very wrong. If you have sex only with the mechanics of it, that's a shame. I can tell you that the physical act of sex without an emotional or spiritual component to it is empty... and sad. Two females are quite capable of having mind blowing sex. I'm sure it's the same for two men. (Of course, you'd have to not be straight to grasp this as I can't understand anyone liking straight sex, either!) However, if you took sex completely out of my marriage for life, my marriage would not suffer. It is built on much, much more than that. I find that there are many straight people who think that homosexual relationships are nothing more than sex. Being a homosexual, I can attest to this being false.
Like many older gays and lesbians, I married straight more than once. Trying to figure out why it wasn't working. I didn't have a physical attraction, HATED sex (major EWW factor there!), but was trying desperately trying to fit into my family's expectations and societies. Once I realized that my life was my own and not dependent upon anyone's happiness than my own, my *real* life began. A huge weight was lifted off my shoulders, and I fell in love. Finally all of the romance books and stories I'd read made sense. I understood that feeling of love that binds and being attracted to someone. Even though I've gone through hell with price I've had to pay to simply be who I was born to be.. it's all been worth it. My life has been right ever since, and I've had the privilege to spend it with my soul mate. Isn't that a right that we ALL should be afforded? I can honestly say that in the last 11 plus years my life has never been better. I love my wife now more than ever. There is not a person in the world who could convince me that this is wrong.
No one is saying you have to agree with being gay. No one is asking you to be gay. The matter at hand is spreading hate and intolerance and the denial of civil rights based on YOUR religious beliefs. When we start doing this, the Christian Taliban becomes stronger. I am PROUD of who I am. I am PROUD of who my wife is. I'm also VERY proud of the LGBT community for not reacting to people like you with violence. However, if things continue the way they are... violence may soon be answered with violence.
I have been married for nearly 10 years. Not ONE marriage (gay or straight) as been affected by my marriage. We haven't caused one divorce, one domestic abuse, one infidelity. In fact, when I have roses, etc. delivered to my wife at work.. she gets complaints. From whom? From the married men who say I'm making them "look bad". Being an RN for more than a decade in ICU/ critical care I can tell you I've seen a lot. I've been targeted and fired for simply being gay. I've had patients and family members request another nurse because I'm gay (although they got a much less competent nurse as a result), and many, many other incidents (some that put my personal safety at risk). However, I am who I am and there's nothing that can be done about that until this country catches up. I'd LOVE to move to another country... not just for marriage recognition but because of universal health care and a decrease in the daily hate from groups pretending to be for "American Families". I AM an American Family. I own a home, raise children and pay taxes. I get NONE of the thousands of government benefits and protections afforded to straight married folks. I have legal papers drawn up to protect my family and myself that other couples don't have to even worry about. I have a large life insurance policy that I really can't afford... but when I die my wife will be left without the protection of my social security. I promised her I'd make sure she was taken care of, and in this country (land of the free) that entails mountains of legal paperwork and coming up with a way to cover the loss of my income.
I used to be able to provide much more, but I'm dying from a progressive autoimmune disease (NO, not an STD... may want to look up the difference). My poor wife. Dealing with my impending death weighs on her mind. I ALWAYS treated my patients with respect, even if they clearly hated my guts.
We drove 2 days each way to get that piece of paper that says we're married. It was a great trip, and well worth it. It's useless in our state, but that's not the point. I bought a camper a few years ago for family weekends and vacations. It took me MONTHS to find a season place to put it because The broad constitutional amendment in our home state made discrimination legal. They don't allow gays in their campground. I found a place two hours from our home to put it. We've found great friends there. (They are straight) With gas prices what they are, I tried to find somewhere closer again to move it to. No luck. My family wasn't allowed to join our town's COMMUNITY CENTER as a family, although the YMCA didn't have an issue with it. It's expensive to join... even as a family. The message was clear.. "you're not part of the community". However, they demand and accept my tax money! Each and every day I deal with slights to threats and hatred for who I am. However, I forgive them. They don't know the amount of pain they cause others, or they lack the basic compassion and conscience to care. I pity them, because a day will come when they have to answer for this. It will not be pretty... according to your religion and mine. However, there is one truth that cannot be denied. Without hate, there could be no love. That doesn't mean I won't continue to fight for the civil rights we deserve.
We are not giving up on that fight, and if the right thing is done and gay marriage becomes a reality on a federal level, it's you who may want to look for another place to live. Maybe one of those African or Middle Eastern nations who still have homosexuality as illegal. I'm sure you'll be happy there... and think of all the people you can try to convert to your religion! :) I wish, SB, that you and all others like you would lose the hate in your heart. It makes more room for love. OH, and tell the American Family Values people that they need to focus on the REAL threat to families like divorce, infidelity, prostitution, TV programming, gangs, guns, etc. There are real threats to the family, and we are NOT one of them... yet we seem to be the "only" topic of this "group".
msujedi... I could quote passages from my religion that contradict yours, but would you believe them? Would you live your life according to *my* religious beliefs? Doubtful. Also, as it should be. No one should expect another human to change their system of religious beliefs to satisfy another. This is why religion is NOT absolute. It's relevant. To the person... to the interpreter. The relationship you speak of is between each individual and your god, correct? How can this transfer to a system of laws that were written to protect and give equal rights to each individual in this country? A couple from another country can come to this country and IMMEDIATELY have more rights than I do for nothing more than being the *right* sexual orientation. I have a huge issue with this. When people use their personal beliefs to hold down, intimidate, and restrict civil rights of those that don't share those personal beliefs, then we have a problem. Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, but they do NOT have the right to keep civil rights from others as a part of that. To do so seems very Un-Christian like. No one is saying YOU have to be gay...so there's no issue with you breaking any of your god's laws.
just love it when "christian terrorist BIGOTS" blather they are somehow being the victims of their bullying BULL@!$%#
news flash for "christian BIGOTS"
Jesus never said a word against homosexuals -- heck there is evidence he was a homosexual himself hanging out all hours of every day and sleeping with 12 men -- but I digress
there is a cure for BIGOTRY it is called education
all you "christian terrorists" spewing your hateful intolerance and BIGOTRY -- yes you are all free to spew your hate and vile all you want in your tax payer funded churches -- when your hate spills out of the church you have lost your right to blather your hate and not be called on it
Amazes me the most hateful folks I have met in my life scream how "christian" they are
utter fools then truly are and nothing more
Some people are born that way but I find it hard to believe that So many were. I think now it's a matter of the media being Sarurated with everything being gay and the young impressionable coming up are being influenced by it. This article just goes to show how one-sided the issue is. Maybe the mayor wimped out to political correctness. Then again, this is England. They can be a little swishy.
What does 'swishy' mean?
Why do you find it hard to believe that so many people are born gay? Don't you think the stigma imposed by intolerant people and the bullying might have something to do with people staying in the closet?
Get over yourself. The "young and impressionable" are not "choosing" to be gay- they were born gay, and feel safer about their sexuality than people would have in less tolerant times.
I really, seriously do not understand why some people just do not get it. Other people's sexual preference does not affect you in any way... I don't even understand why you feel the need to talk about it and can't accept it.
The comment about the English being "a little swishy" is just as ignorant as the rest of your post.
You gays are confusing kids. You are the reason these kids are committing suicide.
What does get over yourself mean? And I chose to talk about it (Obviously) becauset that's what this article is about! I'm entitled to my opinion and you're trying to censor me like the mayor censored those ads!
I Do think that in this day and age with all the promoting that some people Choose to experiment. There are many women being with women just to turn guys on. Just watch or listen to Howard Stern for awhile the kind of guests he has.
No one was born a bigoted self-righteous judgmental holy roller, but we sure seem to have an awful lot of THEM around.
Not a holy roller at all wildone.
Then what are you? A non-theistic bigot?
Usually recessive traits show up at about the same rate that homosexuality does. (Look at left-handedness.) It could also be too that people are born predominantly bisexual and via culture move toward one end of the spectrum or the other. Cultures tend to be coercive toward heterosexuality. Perhaps it's not quite as "natural" as we think. I am not bisexual, by the way.
Oo shrekk, 'non-theistic'. You Are smarter than me.
Brenda -
The latest studies are pretty revealing. In general, a fetus has about a 5% chance of being born gay. If the fetus is one of a pair of fraternal twins, that percentage rises to 25%. And if the fetus is one of a pair of identical twins, there is a 50% chance of being born gay. That seems pretty conclusive - there is a genetic component to homosexuality.
In identical twins in which one is gay and the other straight, environment or upbringing does not seem to have an effect because both twins were raised in the same familial and social environments.
Interestingly, the chances of being born gay increase significantly for males that have older brothers. A mother's female body sees a male fetus as a foreign object, and hits it with antibodies and hormones. The more male children a woman bears, the better her body seems to become at "feminizing" a male fetus. It could be that at 8 weeks, insufficient testosterone is released by the fetus, or enough testosterone is released but an insufficient amount gets absorbed by the developing fetal brain.
The field of epigenetics points to proteins that don't directly contribute to an individual's genome, but rather trigger certain genes at certain times.
Being gay is NOT a choice, so it is NOT a sin.
Case closed.
Jim, interesting info, especially about the twins. Can you cite a source please?
"Being gay is NOT a choice, so it is NOT a sin."
You just described an action stemming from a condition that comes from corruption (something has to go wrong in order for it to exist). Making a choice to follow that corruption is a sin.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 1 John 2:16
...and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. 2 Pet 2:10
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:63
Being gay is a state some physical bodies are in... choosing to follow that state is sin.
I am born a selfish bastard, but I can certainly fight against my desire so I can fulfill "love your neighbor as yourself". Love being defined by "love God" first. Which means you can't love something that comes from corruption and still fulfill the first commandment. If I love God, I love what is perfect and good. But if I do not define my love from God I can love in an ungodly way as well as love ungodly things.
In a perfect world there wouldn't be homosexuality; it would be impossible for it to exist because it needs the imperfect in order for it to appear. The fruit shows the kind of tree it came from: corruption ---> corruption
Beth -
Sources? Certainly. The information appeared in a series on twins that ran on the National Geographic channel. The shows were pretty interesting, there were several of them. This particular episode featured interviews with epigeneticists who were focused on trigger timing in DNA methylation. There was also an article in National Geographic magazine. The studies passed peer review and were published in Science, and in Nature.
If you need more specific references, I'll try to search out my old issues.
Hope that helped.
Amen to that. Everybody is born selfish and sinful. There has been evidence serial killers share similar genes (Plotnik, Psychology). Does that mean it's okay for them to go around murdering people? No, obviously. Though this is a severe comparison, my point is that everything is a choice. Somedays I've felt like screaming/ yelling at customers at my part time job outside of college. But ya know want? I don't because I know that would be wrong. Also even if I didn't believe like so, it is still a freedom of speech issue. Somebody can say that acting in their homosexuality is right? Great. I can state it's wrong!
Case Closed.
From
But the One TRUE God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. From the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, from the book of Suggestions, Chapter 13, Verse 23
and from the Loose Canon of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, from the book of Pastafarians, Chapter 8, verse 17
You need to convert to Pastafarianism immediately to avoid going to Flying Spaghetti Monster Hell.
Rachel-Marie
And you just did. But simply saying so doesn't make it so. While I support your right to your opinion, and your right to express it here in a blog, I cannot support mass advertising of something so blatantly false and demeaning.
You omitted the most important thing of all - murder is illegal and homosexuality is not. Comparing legal and constitutionally protected sex acts with serial murder is at best disingenuous, at worst insulting.
Thankful-2416829, i respect your opinion, but i have to disagree because you overthought this. Remember that Christianity or any related religion does not contain any REAL orr PHYSICAL scientific evidence that connects a human being to an unknown source and matter of fact, it is only a BELIEF. I can't believe there will still be intolerant, religous bastards who cannot catch up with the rest of the world. There IS NOT a damn difference between each human in this planet. Why don't you tolerate? Telling Gay people to do something they don't want to do or forcing them to become something that they are not will ONLY make you and your religion be given a bad reputation and then they would look at homosexuals as heroes you villians, just like they did when whites entirely use to hate blacks. I'm not atheist, because those people are @!$%#s; i don't believe there would be a God, who doesn't like someone or their lifestyle. if everyone were to be straight, then NOBODY will be straight. And Newsflash: perfect DOESN'T exist. Nothing is perfect, there will always be something wrong. If you people get your heads off that holy bible for at least more than minute and think once, realize a God should always love everybody even for their differences, even if they made mistakes, or even their choices. If you cannot get that through you and your allies thick skulls, then shame on you for not being human. Just SHAME. I pity you.
@ Jim- The legal status of homosexuality has little to do with its morality (right or wrong). See: slavery, Jim crow laws, or any other morally bankrupt laws.
It very may be people are born gay (science certainly leans that way) but a dispostion (not sin) and a behavior (which can be controlled or considered "sin") can be judged by God as the only perfect moral authority or against a " perfect moral standard" of which humans cannot honestly agree upon. I question why people try to limit free will and choice when GOd gives us the right to choose and obey. WE will live with the consequences.
I think if you actually read the Bible you would be much more appreciative of what Jesus has to say about judging others (He's awesome). Who are Christians or any other group to judge gay people?? God will be the judge, His grace is sufficient to cover a multitude of sins.
Homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuality is not natural; i.e., abnormal sexual behavior. Homosexuality should be against the law.
It is a shame that anyone who opposses this abnormal behavior is subjected to centure. If you do not agree, support, or keep quiet about your beliefs, the homosexual community and supporters will cry 'Hate, homophobia, intolerance, and discrimination,' in an effort to silence the voices who believe that homosexuality is wrong.
Homosexuals and their supporters try and make it look like they are just anyone else and that it is just about being able to cohabitate equally. This is a lie! It is too bad too many folks have bought into this lie and have quit fighting against the movement.
A lot of people do not realize that the indoctrination has already started in pre-school years with your children. If you voice your legal opinion that the homosexuality is wrong and you don't want your children exposed to it in public schools, you are likely to wind up in jail. Your only choice to keep your children from being exposed to the idea the homosexuality is wrong is to remove your children from public schools.
Also, one would do well to start looking into the troubles this life CHOICE has made for these 'loving couples' and you will see a very dark picture in terms of disease, domestic violence, and how these will spill over into main stream society.
Reposted from #1.18
Homsexuality is wrong and it is a CHOICE. The reason some people refuse to see it as a choice is that they enjoy being a homsexual too much, even though they know it is wrong. The Tyler Clementi suicide is one emample of someone knowing it is wrong to 'feel' an attraction to another of the same sex as one's self. One does not have to go very far to see the numbers of homosexuals who 'medicate' their pain--i.e., guilt--away. Or others who just cannot live with error of their way and just end it all.... Check it out....
Reposted from #1.22
ConsumerIke -
I couldn't agree more. I read my Bible every day. But my point is that homosexuality is constitutionally protected. I was responding to another poster who compared homosexuals to serial killers. That is uncalled for, and it is not up to true Christians to judge others.
My true feelings are that people who misuse the Bible to condemn others are doing so out of ego - implying that somehow God is on their "side". To me, that is what "taking the Lord's name in vain" is all about - using God for one's own vanity.
Pasta be upon you.
@ Jim-3113262
Dude, no one is comparing homosexuals as 'people--i.e., human beings--to serial killers--who happen to be people and human beings too. The poster is not even comparing the crime of killing someone to the 'act' of homosexuality.
Some how, people always miss the part about "DESIRE," "WANT," "URGE," "UNCONTROLABLE URGE," or "FEELINGS," when brought up in this arguement.
What is trying to be compared is the "FEELING" of wanting to kill someone and acting on that "FEELING" is as wrong as "FEELING" like being in a sexual relationship with another person of the same sex. It is as much a choice to DENY the feeling of wanting to kill someone as DENYING the feeling of wanting to be in a sexual relationship with another of the same sex.
Switchblade -
People do not choose their sexual orientation. They are born with it. And they are quite free to act on it. There is a tremendous difference between the desire for sex and the desire to murder. There is also a tremendous difference between having sex and committing murder.
Since the evidence says homosexuality is genetic, it cannot be a sin - no matter what the Bible says.
@ Jim-3113262
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on homosexuality being genetic.
Science has not found a "gay" gene yet. They have theories that there is one and they keep trying to prove it but I don't believe they will find a "gay" gene.
You see, I believe in a creator and He is the author of life and He did not instill a "gay" gene in some people. Otherwise, the bible would not condemn men lying with men or exchanging the natural use for women to burn in their lust for men to have sex with men or women to have sex with women.
switchblade-2693948
"A lot of people do not realize that the indoctrination has already started in pre-school years with your children. If you voice your legal opinion that the homosexuality is wrong and you don't want your children exposed to it in public schools, you are likely to wind up in jail. Your only choice to keep your children from being exposed to the idea the homosexuality is wrong is to remove your children from public schools.
Also, one would do well to start looking into the troubles this life CHOICE has made for these 'loving couples' and you will see a very dark picture in terms of disease, domestic violence, and how these will spill over into main stream society"
WOW. Preschool years? REALLY? BOTH of my children went to public preschools. There was NEVER ANY talk about being gay, straight, bi, or monkey lovers (just to prove a point on how stupid this particular topic is). In fact, my son is now in the second grade, PUBLIC school. They are just NOW talking about inappropriate touching. I don't know if being a child molester counts towards domestic violence in your book, but it does in mine. I can name numerous adults from my childhood who did exactly this, and ALL of them were straight. I can also tell you who we, as children of this fate, ran to to talk about it and try to figure out what to do (your supposed domestic violence people.) Please, DON'T lump gay/lesbian people with domestic violence, disease, or whatever else. You're seriously only going to make an idiot of yourself doing so.
@ Shannon Christman
You might consider looking at "Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence (Haworth Gay & Lesbian Studies)," by John Dececco Phd., Patrick Letellier, and David Island. They assert that domestic violence amoung homsexual male couples is 50% higher than what is prevelent amoung heterosexual couples.
You probably have not heard of the pre-school books "Donavan's Big Day," by by Leslea Newman and Mike Dutton, "Uncle Bobby's Wedding," by Sarah S. Brannen, "King and King and Family," by Linda De Haan, and Stern Nijland, or "And Tango Makes Three by Justin Richardson, Peter Parnell and Henry Cole.
Now, I probably meant school age children but a quick search brought the above mentioned books forth.
The case I was primarily referring to was David Parker in Massachusetts. The school district basically told him that if he did not want his children to be in a classroom where homesexuality was being taught, to remove his children from the school district. The Supreme Court of the United States sided with the school district and David Parker removed his children from the public education system.
In Montana, (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/us/07bully.html?pagewanted=all):
ibid....
These are just two examples that I can remember quite quickly.
The problem is that most people only think of terms in there own spere of reference. Just because someone has not been exposed to an event or experience does not mean that it does not happen.
This is kind of setting your self up as an authority over what I think or write, is it not?
Single genes do not genetics make. The total affect of genetics is a result of a wide variety of single genes interacting. While some conditions have single genes, they also do not always appear in the final product depending on other present genes.
The research has been and is continuing to be done. So far there are a large number of conclusive arguments for a genetic base.
@ allswell
I am finding out that the more someone wants to believe in something, the more data they find to prove it. A couple of examples, Mars was drenched in liquid water, or so Steve Squyers would have us believe. There was so much money, time and effort put into the Mars rovers that they had to make good on their clam that there was once water on Mars. They have pretty much abandoned that claim.
Example # 2. Men who drink beer are smarter: Study: Drinking beer makes men smarter. http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/208884/9/Study-Drinking-beer-makes-men-smarter
I think it is absurd to do such a study as the above, but I think the beer study shows that the data will prove anything you want it to prove.
This brings me another example from Mars. Just recently someone went over the date from the Viking probes of Mars in 1976 and from running the data in a different format they claim that there is life on mars in the form of bacteria. Of course, they have not seen it but the data suggest that it is there; therefore, it must be there.
Most studies are biased in one fashion or another because I can give you example after example of data, studies, research to prove that homsexuality is not genetic, that it is a learned behavior, that it is a choice; however, you will not accept my sources because they come from Christians or Christian sponsored organizations.
Kind of brings me down to a final point. I know I will not change your mind. You will not change my mind. We have to agree to disagree agreeably. But I will not give up the fight to keep homosexuality from becoming recognized by "civil rights, equal rights, or marriage rights" in the United States by voting, speaking, and supporting my beliefs.
One way or another we will both have to LIVE WITH IT. Because even if SCOTUS strikes down prop 8 and DOMA, I still will not be silent, nor will you be silent if SCOTUS uphold prop 8 and DOMA.
See above post. You must, by your own words, stop using any and all products by those companies and far more (I only got halfway through the list and didn't even use all of them). I think this will cause your fight to grind to a screeching halt.
@ allswell
I believe you have me on this one... you are right that my cause would very much come a halt should I follow through with my assertions that I will not patronize.....
I will have to do what ol' Robert Spitzer did and retract that part of my arguement.
I would like to boycot those institutions but I may have to turn my electricity off, stop buying gas for my car, etc.... My father worked for United Air Lines for years...
I will admit that I bit off more than I could chew...
However, I still think homosexuality is wrong and do not believe that there should be given marriage rights to homosexuals based on religious beliefs. But I believe it can be proven that the life choice is dangerous to the country and the people involved not only phsyically, but emotionally and mentally.
And I will applaud you on taking the punches, and drop the line of query for future discussions.
I still can't understand how you see a personal matter to at all influence the state of the country, nor can I see how you are going to prove it hurts those involved at all (sexual injuries occur amongst all sexualities).
ok
There is overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is genetic. In the general population, homosexuality happens about 5% of the time. That rises to 25% in the case of fraternal twins, and a whopping 50% for identical twins. That means – the genetic affects on sexual orientation play a larger role than on determining whether someone is born left handed or right handed. Epigeneticists are studying trigger timing in DNA mehtylation. Why don’t you hate left handed people?
Homosexuality is present in over 1500 species (including but not limited to zebras, baboons, dolphins, sheep, buffalos, ducks, foxes, elephants, horses, gorillas, moose, house cats, swans, pigs, mice, rabbits, lions, and humans). If your “creator” is the “author of life”, then your creator is most certainly the author of homosexuality.
And your Bible? Here’s your passage (King James Version from 1769):
If Yahweh is addressing men, he seems to be saying that men should not lie with men as they would with women. Nothing specifically mentions sex, just reclining. But if Yahweh is referring to sex, and is addressing women, he is clearly commanding women to be lesbians, saying that it is an abomination for women to lie with men.
just a quick note sodomites refer to rapists not being gay. I would refer to you toThe Corporation. Homosexuality is confirmed to occur natural or do you support the idea that the animals are making a choice?..... Or are you one to cover your ears and deny science. God is the judge leave it to him and stop causing so much hate. Those story books in elementary school a early poster reference do not teach you to be gay ( well happy maybe), it is like other stories about differences the also have ones about different kind of disabilities and wearing glasses. Kids are not born with prejudice they learn it, by reactions to there curiosity about every thing that is different from the home environment. so if your in a family that has a male and female parent, they will ask questions to why their classmates have only a male or female parent, or a male and male parent, or female and female parent. It is your response that shapes them ( No it will not make them gay). Kids also like getting second opinions and often go to their teacher as it is usually a outside adult the have the most interaction with those books just say those kids who have a family structure that is different are still kids to other kids. Those books are for the benefit of the children who come from those families so that it will lessen them being singled out for teasing. Does the Bible say the anything about hermaphrodites? Just curious.
So is there a gene that makes me desire to be with a woman who is white , because Im white > or chinese prefer to be with chinese ? ect ect . But you have a minority that will desire to marry someone of a different nationality , or they have no interest in dating someone of their own nationality and desire something different.
From studies, a lot of the sexual orientation is from 2 years of age until puberty. Many influences can happen with in that time. Just as you also pointed out that one identical twin can be gay and may not doesnt really give any evidence to support there is a gay gene.
Once again (from another thread) preference does not equal orientation.
I think this is pretty unfair. We know that sexuality is fluid and not so fluid for others, this is not new findings. Many people go on to live happy lives as straight people after living a proud gay life. This type of censorship is ridiculous and is not implying gay is a disease. Again the gay agenda censorship wins.
A win for 'gay agenda censorship' or a loss for religious homophobia?
In the US, the idea of a 'gay agenda' has always been a sort of projection, as gays aren't organized into a single, tightly organized, highly disciplined, well-funded political organization, whereas homophobic religious and political organizations are. all of these things.
In fact, the issue itself, homophobia, is a central organizing principle of Contemporary American Conservatism. It opens checkbooks and gets people to the polls. The opposition to gay rights definitely has an agenda and is well-organized and well-funded.
The 'gay agenda' is simply to gain the same rights as others, which seems reasonable to me. But the way the word 'agenda' is used often makes it seem sinister or negative.
Just because someone doesn't like something does not mean they have a phobia Zen!
Gays are Very organized in America now Zen. Don't know what you're talking about. There's always a protest, an antidefamation league, etc. And nothing gets by them, They'll squack about everything.
Would it be proper for the KKK to run anti-black ads on a city bus?
Homophobia doesn't mean phobia in the sense of an irrational fear of something that causes extreme anxiety, like acrophobia (fear of heights) or arachnophobia (fear of spiders), it means a fear or hatred of homosexuals, like xenophobia means a fear or hatred of foreigners.
People who fear or hate homosexuals are called homophobes, like people that hate foreigners are called xenophobes. It doesn't mean that someone has a paralyzing anxiety.
I Know what phobia means, and these terms were coined to call anyone that doesn't like these things phobic, to put people in mind of something, a form of brainwashing, if you will.
No, they weren't words that were 'coined', that's just what they mean. If you (and I mean 'you' in the generic sense - not personally) - don't like gay people, there's a word for that. If you don't like people of another race, there's a word for that, or people of another country, etc. That's just the word.
The thing is at root of homophobia IS a fear and not just a mere dislike. Whether that fear is fear of being feminized, or of some retribution from a disapproving god, or rejection by group of peers, or society at large or even fear of similar feelings being repressed to avoid all of the former reasons.
One doesn't organize and publicly rail against mere dislikes, those things stem from a much deeper emotional investment.
Physical attacks against gays frequently demonstrate a savagery well beyond simple dislike. And most males I've encountered are much more rabid in their opposition to gays when in a group setting than in a one on one situation.
culheath - This is a good point, and I didn't mean to trivialize homophobia. I just meant to make a distinction between homophobia and a local and temporal intense, paralyzing anxiety, which I thought was unbelievable's connotation.
Zen,
I know what you meant...I was just expounding the point further, no contradiction intended.
Right - I got ya, and no contradiction perceived. We're on the same page, man.
Nobody complained when hired "security" Black Panthers armed with weapons intimidated voters at a polling station in Philadelphia.
What was there to complain about? And who exactly was intimidated?
One of them, they say, brandished a nightstick at the entrance and pointed it at
voters and both made racial threats. Mr. Bull says he heard one yell "You are
about to be ruled by the black man, cracker!"
Of course, Holder made sure the case was dismissed. But had a white group such as the KKK done something similar the liberals would have been screaming for the heads. I'm just pointing out the double standard you leftists have when it comes to hate groups.
One man's double-standard is another man's false equivalency.
Dunkin lives in the alternate reality created by Fox Noos.
Fox replayed that one snippet of video tape scores of times to give the impression there was some sort of Black Panther threat to voters. In fact there were just those two wackos, no organized threat to anybody, and the case was dismissed DURING AND BY Bush's administration, NOT Obama's.
Of course, Fox didn't mention that fact when they kept replaying it (after Obama was elected) to stir-up fear and anger among their ignorant viewers. As we see, that kind of fear-mongering does work.
DunkinH,
Do you understand the point of street theater?
I'm telling ya, you White kids have all the fun.
@benji2
Oh really? What liberal rag did you get that lie from? Only the criminal cased was droped under Bush, a civil rights case was then opend and later closed under the Obama admistration. Guess you forgot to include that fact in your little tirade against Fox, which I don't even watch.
@culheath
So Black Panthers with weapons shouting racial epithets = "street theatre". Christian group posting an anti-gay ad with no threats = hate speech. Gotta love the left-wing double standard.
I hate to repeat myself, but:
One man's double-standard is another man's false equivalency.
OK - full-disclosure: I'm not totally unhappy to use it again. It's a pretty good turn-of-phrase and has a concise, balanced structure - it just looks like it should be in a book of quotations, doesn't it?
I mean, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but that's a homerun.
Im just proud of you for adding no new point, and being straight forward about it, unlike the god argument which only has 1 point ever and re shouts it like its not the same @!$%# again and again
Well - it's only the same point as my previous comment because they were both responses to DunkinH's comments. Specifically: "Gotta love the left-wing double standard." in both his comments.
So, it seemed appropriate to repeat. I suspect that he didn't understand it's meaning the first time around, and possibly not the second, who knows.
I didn't repeat the same point twice just because I liked the phrase.
People who are not gay, cannot be proud. I guess that's the lesson taught in England.
This worlds need adds against stupidity. Born Gay Bi Les Het let people live their lives no one gives a dam about what stupid people think. People against homosexuality can't even name one thing bad about homosexuality besides god doesn't like it.
1. Homosexuality and lesbianism promotes sexually transmitted diseases - STD's.
2. Homosexuality and lesbianism caused the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
3. Homosexuality and lesbianism causes throat cancer.
4. Homosexuality and lesbianism, being unnatural and immoral, perverts the hearts and minds of others.
5. Homosexuality and lesbianism, being unnatural and immoral, offends our holy and perfect heavenly Father.
Plus it stops the species from continuing.
for marine57: oo-rah!!!
aids
No one ever claimed Marines were smart.
Marine57, lesbians have the lowest rates of STDs, period. Heterosexual women are much, much more at risk.
dr.simmons;
Careful "Doc", you're letting your ignorance show. The aids situation in Africa is MAINLY a straight situation.
Now you're smarter than marines, Skrekk.
To..Marine""""
So does heterosexuality ...what's your point ...do you know how many deaths are caused by heterosexual sex how many genetic incurable diseases deformities physcological abnormaities that are passed on through heterosexual sex. how many mothers die giving child birth ..how many babies are born prematurely and the medical costs ..that it was heterosexual sex that created homosexuals...heterosexuals should just stop having sex and stop the cycle of death they breed....sound good...
1foolish-idea
lets also not forget that over 22.5 million in africa live with aids and that it is still all in all a third world country with next to no medical facilities and people sharing everything including aids.
Amunaka:
My point is:
1. Homosexuality and lesbianism promotes sexually transmitted diseases - STD's.
2. Homosexuality and lesbianism caused the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
3. Homosexuality and lesbianism causes throat cancer.
4. Homosexuality and lesbianism, being unnatural and immoral, perverts the hearts and minds of others.
5. Homosexuality and lesbianism, being unnatural and immoral, offends our holy and perfect heavenly Father.
What you mention is another thing God hates - free sex with anyone. If we obey His commandments, we would never leave nor forsake our wives, we would have only one sexual partner in our lifetime.
Marine ..
In re: 1,2,3 -- works for both homosexual AND heterosexual. Married or unmarried.
4,5 -- Your OPINION only. Others have different opinions. You have a right to yours, they have a right to theirs. One is not better or worse than the other. Just different.
And, since other people being homosexual has no impact on YOU, no one is forcing YOU to engage in an activity you don't like, then what's the problem?
To..Marine""""
You really want to bring god into this....
Funny how people always bring up the bible or story of Sodom and Gomorrah...but leave out the fact Lot offered up his two virgin daughters to the mob instead of the strangers who just come to town ...some dad huh...but then they were a little freaky..after Mom turned into a pillar of salt....
"Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." (Genesis 19:6–8)
He and his two daughters found a cave to live in ... One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father." That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. (Genesis 19:30–33)
Oops...
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. (Genesis 19:34–36)"
Someone said it once and I think it bears repeating. "All in all, this country would be a better place if most of you would crawl back into the hole you came out of and worry about your own need for improvement instead of your neighbors." Who are we to tell gays or lesbians they can't fall in love with each other? The people that do need to stop telling people how to love and worry about fixing the hate in their own hearts.
I think Marine57 is just expressing his moral views on the issue.
If he made a statement saying that those views should be secular law, then I can understand that there would be debate or disagreement. But he didn't say that. He just expressed his moral opinion. He didn't say that there should be a law to force us that moral opinion upon anyone else.
And your point amunaka......read it all and write it all. Understand the issue of the whole thing rather then writing a part and going OOPS. We refer to it as twisting GODS word. People do it all the time. Your good at it.
OOPS
To..KTate"""
Read the bible ...ain't twisting nothing..
Lyrica:
Life is a battle of good against evil.
Things in life have a tendency to get out of order and it takes care and effort to bring them back in order.
Your house gets dirty and you have exert care and effort to clean it.
Your yard grows weeds instead of the pretty grass that you like and you have to exert effort to pull them out.
Your kids get out of order and you have to exert care and effort to train them in what is right and what is wrong.
Morality in life gets perverted and society has to exert care and effort to clean things up.
If we all crawled back into our homes and let society deteriorate, then things would get beyond fixing.
It's the same with your health. If you get sick and don't do something about it, you will die.
If society gets sick from immorality, and rioting, and terrorism, and we don't do something about it, we will all die.
Marine57 - so are you saying that your moral view should be secular law?
Did ya read the part about GOD takin' out Sodom in that same book Amunaka. I think last time the girls did Dad it was called incest and God destroyed Sodom for being....................Gay. OOPS
Zen609: Your intuition was correct:
I think Marine57 is just expressing his moral views on the issue.
If he made a statement saying that those views should be secular law, then I can understand that there would be debate or disagreement. But he didn't say that. He just expressed his moral opinion. He didn't say that there should be a law to force us that moral opinion upon anyone else.
The issue then is: How does one get things back in order?
One method is to make laws to affect the needed changes.
Another method is through the teaching of those who are willing to listen.
Yet another is the knowledge that those who do that which is unnatural and evil will soon die.
Consider pilots in airplanes. Whenever they break the laws of flight and aerodynamics, they loose control, gravity takes over, and death is their reward for their error.
To K Tate"""
Now why on earth did god destroy the rest of all life cept for Noah ..and the two by two thing..
Amunaka:
The Bible clearly explains the answer to why he destroyed all life but Noah, his family, and the animals by 2's and by 7's, by the way.
I seem to remember seeing in one of your earlier posts that you had read the Bible, guy!
Marine57
Zen609: Your intuition was correct:
Woo-hoo! I got something right!
I have a German girlfriend - I haven't been right about anything in years. Feels good, man.
Ya left out the GOD destroying Sodom thing Amunaka in all that scripture. Write it all.
Amunaka......ya there.....or did ya run? Ya can't run from GOD. Goodnight.
K Tate
Um, K Tate....God had already declared the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah before that incident happened at Lots door. You can not go back and now use it as the CAUSE for that destruction since it hadn't happened yet. Forced anal rape was something that was used to exert power and degrade an enemy...it doesn't mean the ones who did it were gay.
Ezekiel and and Moses emphasize Sodom’s greed, lack of hospitality, gluttony, idolatry but never mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom.
Jesus points out that the sin of Sodom is inhospitality.
If homosexuality was the reason, all of them had the perfect opportunity to state their views on homosexuality there, yet they didn't.
Homosexuality specifically was only added 1700 years later.
Scriptural smackdown! Thumbs-up for you, Cather.
Marine~
Yes, life is a battle of good and evil, but you need to know which is which. Your house may get dirty, your yard may grow weeds....you may need to fix them...the difference is you OWN them. They are a reflection of your life and your habits which you own so while I understand what you mean the comparison is basically apples and bananas.
Your kids are your responsibility, they look to you for guidance and understanding and once they've grown enough they go out in the world to make their own decisions. We neither have the right to nor responsibility of raising other people who are grown enough to make their own choices in life. Just as a neighbor doesn't have the right to decide they don't like the tree in your lawn and cuts it down without your permission.
Morality in life may get perverted but even those that claim they are right and just can lose focus and become a victim of bigotry. You are responsible for your health, you are responsible for your yard, you are responsible for your home, and up until they are old enough to leave and make their own choices, you are responsible for your children. You are not however, responsible for making decisions for total strangers on who they can and can't fall in love with. Those who have closed hearts and minds while proclaiming to have all the answers are just as much a degradation to society as rioting and terrorism. You may not like a persons decision to fall in love with the same sex (and you certainly don't have to) but they have every much a right to it as you do.
Answer to GOD as we all will. Living on this screwed up planet with a bunch of twisted people is something we all will do for a few years. Notice I said a few years. Think about the length of eternity. It's infinite. Eternity is infinite. Burning in a lake of fire for an infinite amount of time as compared to 80 years on this planet with a bunch of nuts? I'll take doing as my GOD wants me to, which is pretty good anyway and I'll take Heaven eternally. Your welcome to a few years of wrong and eternity in Hell burning in a lake of fire for eternity. That's infinite suffering forever for what gays and screwed up people call OK. I'll pass. Worship wrong, I'll worship God. I'm quite happy living with God. It's the miserable people who do wrong that aren't happy. If people did right as they are suppose to, they wouldn't be unhappy and fighting amongst each other. Every gay person I've ever known is miserable. Every Gay guy I've ever personally befriended, is dead from their wrong doing. Feel free to bash the Christians. It's you who are miserable, not Christians. Our creator is dishing out some serious punishment for people turning away from him and your all angry and miserable. Imagine how burning in a lake of fire eternally and not being able to turn back is going to feel. Our father who art in Washington and government, how would be thy name. Thy kingdom in ruins as it will be , thy people starving as we are, for relying on the government and rich to support your sin. Give us this day our daily debt, as we purchase and feed the Chinese Communists and expect others to roll over and agree. Lead us into temptation and call it OK as you our justice system will do for a buck and a vote. For thine is the power to ruin.....forever. The Attorneys prayer. Your people turned from GOD.
your all angry and miserable
1) it's 'you're'
2) That statement is projection.
You're an angry, hateful, misreable person.
k tate
And what did Jesus say about being gay? actually quote. I am christian and I am am really tired of the hate that "christians" spread.
I am tired of the continually push to make God the biggest abortionist of them all by claiming life starts at conception.
I am tired of of all this "oh sodom and Gomorrah" crap when Sodomites is a term for rapists and the biggest rapist in this country are,the Corporation Alpha Oculus Worldwide Group News! The Corporation - Full Movie
Homosexuality is confirmed to occur natural or do you support the idea that the animals are making a choice?..... Or are you one to cover your ears and deny science. God is the judge leave it to him and stop causing so much hate.
Also Does the Bible say the anything about hermaphrodites? Just curious.
Tao did you forget about Adam and what God did for him ?
Remember it read adam couldnt find a mate in Genesis 2:20 we are told that when Adam looked at the animals, he couldn’t find a mate—there was no one of his kind.
God seen this and made a Woman for him, not an animal, not a vegetable, not a demon, not other guys.. a woman. If your looking at this from a biblical point of view that isnt influenced from leftist naturalist world view mentality you can see that Adam needed a woman. Once sin is brought into the world, then all kinds of things start to happen.
Damon - that maybe, that doesn't change the fact that adam and eve's children then had to engage in INCEST to populate the earth. Hermaphrodites are not even mention that doesn't mean that they don't exist or some how the are sinful for just being born. It also doesn't change the fact that homosexuality occurs in nature, did it ever occur it that it is a possible biological trigger to decreased populations since the more boys a women has the greater the likely hood of being gay do to chemical influence exerted on to the fetus or a form of hermaphrodite that just falls on a spectrum of not having outward signs? and yes there is a large ranging spectrum. Sodomite is a term for rapist, which is a sexual act that is forced not one of mutual decision. So again what did Jesus say about homosexuality actual quote?
In this day and age I find it comical that people still believe that a sexuality is chosen, and I find it even more comical that some people really believe that "impressionable" people can be persuaded into a specific sexuality.
You're finding alot of comedy tonight.
Can't fix stupid, but at least we could advertise against it?
somewhat like a sign on an American bus saying 'some people are strait, get over it.'
I actually think that would be great if the sign read "some people are gay, some people are straight, get over it"
I think most people would be more then happy to quit talking about sexual preferance in general if there were not so many "gay" parades , parties, etc widely televised . Frankly I dont care what you choose to sleep with our who, I dont need to know about it any more then you need to know about my choices.
Why is there such an insistence to parade the sexual choices in the gay community? If you shove your choices in peoples faces you will not get a good reaction any more then if you tried to shove other alternative life choices on others ,
Life your life as you choose and let others do the same , there is no need to broadcast what you do in your bedroom no matter what or whom it is with.
I agree completely Aster. It is always being shoved down our throats (no pun intended). That's when it started bothering me. Take the St Patrick's Day parade in NY. They insist on having a gay and lesbian banner. Noone else is walking down the street behind a banner saying how they like to have sex. They were told no. Noone said if you're gay you can't be in the parade. But Every year they had to have the same argument. It was really obnoxious.
Once gays have equal legal rights and are no longer treated as 2nd-class citizens, I suspect they'll shut up.
skrekk gays do have the same options for legal rights as straights. I have a few friends that in fact are gay , they have arranged their legal affairs to work just fine with equal rights as the straight community.
The big deal seems to be marriage which is silly anyway because marriage is not and never has been a legal thing , it is a religious commitment that got turned into a legal contract due to property rights and sucession way back when .
None the less it is just a legal contract outside of religion, and one that can easily be duplicated in its effect for property rights etc.
I have to conclude the the big deal about it is a effort to force the rest of the world to "accept " the lifestyle . This of course is also silly and will never work. It is what it is .
I still say that what goes on in your home or bedroom should remain there no matter what your lifestyle choices.
As for second class citizens , think about it , smokers , fat people , people that drink . people that dont drink , people that just dont fit the perception of a perfect person no matter what , are today classed as second class citizens. Gays have no exclusive contract on that one.
People in general are way to busy criticizing others for every little so called imperfection today.
The world would be a better place if everyone just minded their own business, and let others live as they chose without trying to force their personal choices on the world in general .
I agree...when are homophobic heterosexuals going to take you up on that?
Tell that to the widow in NY who was recently forced to pay $363K in federal estate tax because her deceased spouse was the wrong gender.
Or tell that to my gay daughter, who knows full well she doesn't have the same legal rights her mother and I enjoy.
"Marriage" is the legal contract regulated by the state. "Holy matrimony" is the meaningless and irrelevant religious ritual. Every divorced and remarried Catholics understand that difference, which is why 71% of Catholics support marriage equality.
Obviously, aster doesn't believe in freedom of speech or freedom of association.
@aster-3534305 - At least you only have to see it shoved down your throat once a year. Heterosexuals display their promiscuity in just about every ad, commercial, reality show, TV show, movies, magazines, billboards, and anything else that will help sell a product, 365 days a year. It's so common, people don't even realize it's being done. Think about it. Cheers!
No, it cannot be easily duplicated. Marriage conveys a multitude of rights in one easy ceremony (civil or religious). To cover all those rights without marriage requires a lot of documents and legal fees and STILL many are not covered -- for example: Social Security benefits, health insurance benefits.
AnUnidentifiedMale
Oh i very much believe in freedom of speech, just because we can say it , doesn't mean we should say it .
skrekk
Holy Matrimony is irrelevant to you , but not to many others ,should not others have the same right to decide what is important to them as you claim is important to you and your family?
My family is big on holy matrimony, the legal contract means nothing and is truly irrelevant to us.
As for the widow in NY I can feel bad for her, however she could have prevented it , they should have set up their legal affairs long before it happened.
My gay stepson and his partner have taken care of this already , why doesnt everyone ?
UnitedWeStand-1587509
Frankly I have thought about the hetro ads and promiscuity, in fact I havent limited my beliefs or stated here that i feel that gays are the only ones that should keep the bedroom in the bedroom . However I have yet to see a hetro parade LOL>
Ok look , here is the deal , I dont care if you are hetro , gay , bi, what ever , it is not my business , I really believe that it should stay that way.
Shouting in the streets or on parade , "hey look , I'm gay " achieves nothing and alienates many.
Frankly I really believe that most people dont care if you or anyone is gay.
When the gay community finally figures out that most people don't care , and really don't want to hear any more about it, then they will perhaps revert to being normal and not so focused on their sexual preferences themselves. Or at least one can hope.
Shrekk wrote
"Once gays have equal legal rights and are no longer treated as 2nd-class citizens, I suspect they'll shut up."
Shrekk I treat all my gay friends just like everyone else, but they still won't shut up..but maybe that's just my friends??
Holy matrimony is completely irrelevant to your legal rights, as every divorced and remarried Catholic knows. Your religious wedding might matter to you but the state doesn't care about your bizarre cult.
Then don't bother getting a marriage license. Let a more deserving gay couple use it.
Good luck trying to file a joint tax return without that license, getting spousal health care, or transferring your deceased spouse's estate without being subject to inheritance tax.
If that's true then you didn't file it with the State and are happy without all the Federal and State benefits that aren't attached to Holy Matrimony until it is filed. I have no problem with you being unlawfully wedded if those are your beliefs.
If you filed...then it means something and it isn't irrelevant is it?
England is taking away the freedom of speech to businesses and civilians. I don't even think they have freedom of speech.
In fact the UK has much stronger laws against hate speech than we do. Good for them.
So can they say they hate peas? If they say they hate the guy down the street what happens to them?
Let's say the sign was flip flopped. What if the sign said "Ban all guns", then London decided to take that off the bus. You Liberals would be angry and would start yelling "Freedom of Speech"! Also, if anti-gayists hated gays, they never would have put up a sign that stated that they can be cured.
Guns are not people and can not be harmed by assaults on their person. Bad example.
Are you @!$%#ing daft? they did ban all guns you bigoted twat. honestly the audacity you must have to come here defending @!$%#s like these, this entire debate is pointless the other sign didnt say "Come on down and we will turn all bible lovers gay remember being straight is cureable" no it simply stated the absolute fact that some people are gay, and if crazy religious a-holes who cant see that get their hate speach banner through then maybe its time to run the the "BIGOTED? CERTIFIABLE? WILD GUESS HERE, DEVOUTLY RELIGIOUS? GET OVER IT!"
Are you @!$%#ing daft? they did ban all guns you bigoted twat. honestly the audacity you must have to come here defending @!$%#s like these, this entire debate is pointless the other sign didnt say "Come on down and we will turn all bible lovers gay remember being straight is cureable" no it simply stated the absolute fact that some people are gay, and if crazy religious a-holes who cant see that get their hate speach banner through then maybe its time to run the the "BIGOTED? CERTIFIABLE? WILD GUESS HERE, DEVOUTLY RELIGIOUS? GET OVER IT!"
Im still realy crossed but sorry to the sane minded individuals for the double post.
To think that the majority of gay people choose to be gay is a profoundly foolish idea.
I knew I seemed to think differently from the other boys in kindergarten, wasn't until I was 12 and entering adolescence that I realized that, try as i might, I was just not attracted to females. Being stuck with red hair and fair skin (meant I got skin burns that eventually faded into a tan, if I was lucky) AND coming to grips with my attraction to other males caused a deep depression that culimmated in my serious consideration of suicide by age 16. Never did it because i decided it was only two years more and I'd be free to make my OWN choices.
The more I think of it, I don't believe ANYONE chooses to be gay. Enjoying the sexual act, which many right-wing gay-haters seem to get stuck on, MAY be chosen by some. I've met a few over the years but they CLAIM to be bi-sexual and don't claim to be gay.
I congratulate the mayor of London for making the correct decision. Anti-gay folk just need to realize there's nothing they can do about it and just ACCEPT and TOLERATE IT!
That's your story and yours is genuine, but it seems these days that there's more to it than that.
Such as?
Culheath, what do you mean such as? I've been pretty clear on here. I believe some people are born gay, but in today's overly promiscuous society (and I mean that to mean hetero, homo, bi whatever, before you get your panties in a bunch) I think that others have learned it from the constant saturation and promotion of the media, etc. I don't know what one you are.
Some people are unfortunately born mentally retarded and need help, Not told it is except it. Next will be child molestors etc?
alienjon;
Sorry, but that is just PROFOUNDLY stupid.
Would you translate that from the original hillbilly into English, please?
Nice... just, nice
In London freedom of speech means freedom to parrot the dogma of Mayor Boris Johnson and the homosexual lobby.
You better believe it! Now that Boris dude may be a cock, but I'm glad he's on my side!
Oh, and deal with it.
What does deal with it mean?
Basically? Suck it up, you lose!
What is it about homosexuality that is so alluring .. so compelling so attractive that a heterosexual feels somebody would choose to be gay ...am I missing something here
Your missing a Lot......and Sodom......your a piller of salt.
K Tate....the good ole hate message...wishing people dead instead of using love to get them to listen to your message.
I am Christian and the type of comments you wrote are why I no longer go to church...I didn't leave Christ though. He left with me...He was disgusted too.
Remember Christ? The One who never said a word above homosexuality? The One who said a soft answer turns away wrath? Remember Him?
Remember that God calls us with His Love, not hate...stop the hate...on both sides...then maybe, just maybe Love can rule.
letloverule......excuses. Nothing bad has been said by me. Your relationship is with God. I'll take the free gift of Heaven and your welcome to bash me as you see fit as well as call me hateful. I have never answered to another person but God and never will. Christ will always be Christ and I'll be more then happy to try to be like him. What people today call Love, I call lust. When I walked out of the Church, I did it because I wanted to do as I see fit and it cost me plenty to walk with the Devil. I'll keep going to Church and live by his word as well as be loved by Christ like I've never been loved by any human, and your welcome to...............................
Letloverule......please let me know where I've wished anybody dead on this blog. I'm at a loss here.
If you take away the religious parts of the anti gay people they have nothing to stand on. They need to chill and stop worrying whether two dudes have sex or two women.
Anti-gay sentiments are just more of the age old patriarchal religious control issue claptrap.
It's not something one is born with. Being gay is a premeditated decision.
To..JBM""'
When was it you decided not to be gay and why how old were you...did you have family or friends that supported your decision
@JMB1979: Get over it.
And my opinion is that rainbows have only two colors. That would make us similar in our limited perceptions.
Same to ya, Frosty.
culheath, try being a man.... man-up, pussy. did you get your little feelings hurt? awwwwww
Quit trolling you sound like a 12 year old
How about having the balls not to edit your original comment just go easy on the hate.
I even screenshot it (click on it).
I see what you did there. Feeling a bit guilty sprouting off like that, eh?
Yeah I saw that too. Insta-troll.
tinypic(dot)com/r/2wqa6av/5
Geez, I didn't know it'd be impossible to post links, especially that sweet screenshot of a hater taking back what he just said.
Ok, it worked.
Good job.
Trolling
trolling
trolling down the river...
nope, no feelings here hurt.
Get over It! 90% of Gay Individuals are like Lady Gaga "I was born this way" you can't ex-gay someone. What a Big bunch of religious nuts around the world.
Your sexual preference to be gay is something your more then welcome to practice in your own home as we hetrosexuals do with our mates in our homes. What's the big deal. I don't practice sex in the streets and you don't need to either. Nor do you need to shove your practice of being gay down my throat as right. Do what you see fit in your home and shut up about it. Then their won't be problems.
Thing is the religious don't, they go on and on about sin this sin that your going to hell over really petty stuff.
If they would keep the beliefs in the church and their homes and not in public everything will be fine.
No they don't. Gays give Christians crap because they want to be accepted and Christians don't car if they are Gay. Be gay and accept the fact that Christians don't agree with it. It's not a Christian issue anyway......it's a GOD issue. And it's between a gay and GOD. I am a Christian and your sexual preference is between you and GOD. So again, do what you want and shut up about it. Christians don't make a big deal about it, gays give Christians crap for not agreeing with the lifestyle. The Christians don't want the crap. If Gays would stop giving us crap for something we really don't give a hoot about, all this would stop. Be gay and stop moaning about it and not being accepted. It's been going on for centuries and now Christians are getting crap for not accepting it. It never has been acceptable in Gods eyes and never will. Practice it in your home and shut up about it. Christians don't call it sin, God calls it sin. A big difference. Understand that difference.
To..KTate"""
Take your own advise ...no
I'll take yours Amunaka.
Gay and Christian aren't mutually exclusive. Not all Christians are ignorant bigots.
It seems as if freedom of expression is alive and well in the UK. That is if you share the same expressive views as the perverted rule makers. God, am I glad my ancestors left England and Scotland. Said it once and I will say it again. Queers cannot reproduce, only recruit.
And Jesus Christ is still Lord.
Yet they are born naturally of heterosexuals. The only perversion is in your mind.
Only to you and yours. The rest of us listen to logic, reason, and evidence rather than unprovable myth.
My daughter would disagree with you there.
I didn't lose my reproductive organs by being gay. The only thing I can't do is 'accidentally' get pregnant by my partner/spouse. Which means I already knew my child was wanted and ready to be cared for when we did. By both her legal parents. :)
And what did Jesus say about being gay? actually quote. I am christian and I am am really tired of the hate that "christians" spread.
I am tired of the continually push to make God the biggest abortionist of them all by claiming life starts at conception.
I am tired of of all this "oh sodom and Gomorrah" crap when Sodomites is a term for rapists and the biggest rapist in this country are The Corporation.
Homosexuality is confirmed to occur natural or do you support the idea that the animals are making a choice?..... Or are you one to cover your ears and deny science. God is the judge leave it to him and stop causing so much hate.
Also Does the Bible say the anything about hermaphrodites? Just curious.
Some of the ignorance here is stammering. Can anyone explain why so many people would choose to be gay? I don't want speculation. I want facts and examples. First hand if possible. What's so great about being gay that people would suddenly choose it?
Before you speak up, please keep in mind that Dr. Robert Spitzer, the founder of the whole ex-gay therapy bit just came out renouncing all of his work as false. Google it if you don't believe me.
Been around about 56 years and the gay thing is something I don't understand and don't care to. Not my cup of tea. On religion, Heaven is a free gift for all offered by GOD. If people don't want to spend eternal life there, that's between them and GOD. It's a choice and a free gift. We as people don't die, we simply change worlds. We are given a choice which world and given a clear path on how to get to the one of choice. Take your pick. You simply have two choices after you move on. We call that move to the next world death and are given two choices, Heaven or hell and a clear description of each. I 'll take Heaven. Your choice is between you and GOD. Bedtime.....have a nice life and death. The latter being inevitable.
Christians are so damn pathetic.
@k tate:i've been around 81 years and feel as you do.there are choices to be made.if i remember correctly god made all men so all of us must have a chance for his everlasting blessing.with all the religions in the world,there must be more than one way to attain whatever life an individual desires in the "next world" side note:since i'm 25 years older and i agree with you -does that make younger for my years or does it mean you are older (more mature?)
There is a simple verse in the scriptures that says: "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die" All people do die and go to rest. No one moves on to another world. To believe that is ignorance.
Heaven looks great to us pathetic Christians.
Enjoy the promise of an afterlife. The rest of us will just live our current lives.