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Anthon Unger / AP
Demonstrators from European anti-Islamic groups converged on Aarhus, Denmark March 31 to protest what they call the Islamization of Europe, as police tried to keep them apart from a larger group of counter-protesters.
Anti-Islamist groups and individuals like those that inspired Norwegian Anders Berhing Breivik to launch his bloody attacks in Norway last July are growing in number, reach and interconnectedness, according to a new report published in Britain.
The report documents the activities of about 300 groups and individuals worldwide — including many in the United States — that increasingly overlap in fund-raising and rhetoric, but have diverse origins.
"They are neo-conservatives. They are Christian evangelicals. They are hardline racists. They are football hooligans. They are nationalists. They are populists. They are hardline Zionists. They are former leftists. The 'counter-jihad' movement comes in all shapes and sizes but they are united in a common loathing of Islam," according to the report, compiled by the London nonprofit Hope not Hate.
Generally, these groups maintain that there is an Islamic plot to take over the Western world, and that there is little difference between the hardline Islamists and the majority of Muslims, according to the report, "Counter-Jihad," published to coincide with the start of Breivik’s trial in Oslo.
It argues that the 9-11 attacks by Islamic extremists provided fuel for counter-jihad extremists — themselves provoking violence by individuals like Breivik.
"As this report graphically shows, the bloggers, radio hosts and journalists are increasingly shaping and poisoning the wider political and media discourse,” it says in the introduction. "Breivik acted alone but it was the 'counter-Jihadist' ideology that inspired him and gave him the reasoning to carry out these atrocious attacks."
The Norwegian gunman has admitted killing 77 people in a bomb attack and shooting spree but will argue that his actions were taken in self-defense, based on his belief that Islam and massive immigration have threatened his culture and existence.
In a 1,500-page manifesto and a YouTube video posted to the Internet just hours before the attacks, Breivik laid out his views, including the idea that liberal policies advocating multiculturalism threaten Western culture. His victims were mainly young people associated with Norway’s liberal party who were attending a camp on a nearby island.
"The EU is formally surrendering an entire continent to Islam while destroying established national cultures, and is prepared to harass those who disagree with this policy," he wrote. "This constitutes the greatest organized betrayal in Western history, perhaps in human history, yet is hailed as a victory for 'tolerance.' "
"My advice to Westerners in general is to arm themselves immediately, first of all mentally with knowledge of the enemy and pride in their own culture and heritage, but also physically with guns and the skills to use them," Breivik wrote.
Breivik was in direct contact with some anti-Islam groups prior to the attacks, including the English Defence League of Britain, said Dan Hodges, spokesman for Hope not Hate.
His writing cited dozens of sources, including influential anti-Islam voices in the United States such as Robert Spencer, who makes a living writing about the dangers of Islam through his Jihad Watch, his blog, and other activities.
Spencer, named among the "Top Dozen Players" of the global anti-Muslim network, rejects the notion that Breivik was inspired by his writing, though it was liberally cited in Breivik's "manifesto."
"The idea that I inspired him to do violence to innocent people is a media fiction," Spencer said in a comment emailed to msnbc.com about the new report. "In reality, he was plotting violence in the 1990s, before I began publishing books on Islam."
"Breivik in his manifesto calls for working with (the Palestinian group) Hamas, which shows that he is actually incoherent ideologically, and has nothing in common with my advocacy for human rights and freedom," Spencer said.
"One could not say those are the actions of a rational individual," Hodges said of Breivik’s killing spree. "But it is quite clear from evidence we have seen before the trial that Breivik was inspired by the broader political narrative" created by the anti-Islam extremists.
The counter-jihad groups increasingly are combining forces for fundraisers — with high-profile European anti-Islam speakers gaining audiences in the United States among right-wing religious and political groups.
On this year's anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, like-minded groups are invited to attend a conference in New York City called Stop Islamization of Nations , spearheaded by Pam Geller, a well-known voice in the anti-Islam movement.
"Freedom fighters from all over the globe, journalists, intellectuals and academicians will be among the participants in the workshop, which will consist of brainstorming sessions to develop mechanisms for cooperation with external partners, and to develop an action plan to address the phenomenon of the Islamic war against free speech," Gellar wrote in an article announcing the event.
Among the speakers listed were several European luminaries of the counter-jihad movement who maintain that their governments have suppressed free speech in deference to Muslim sensitivities, including Anders Gravers and Lars Hedegaard of Denmark. Gravers, Hedegaard and Geller are all listed among the Counter-Jihad report's "Top Dozen Players."
It was understandable, Hodges said, that governments, security and police focused on the threat from Islamist extremists after 9-11. But he said they have been too slow to recognize the threat coming from violent extremists riled up by rhetoric on the other side.
"Those who say that these people (like Breivik) are an isolated threat are sadly mistaken," he said. "We mustn’t allow the extremists from the anti-jihad movement the opportunity to stage their own 9-11. If we lower our guard they will do."
More world news from msnbc.com and NBC News:
Anders Breivik to Norway court: I killed 77 people but am not guilty
Tunisia still wants sun lovers, new Islamist government says
Afghan President Karzai slams NATO over 18-hour Kabul gunbattle
Follow us on Twitter: @msnbc_world
Leave a Comment:
I will give some credence to "anti-jihadist" extremism when I hear about a plane flying into Mecca.
77 people shot dead isn't extreme?
A million is a statistic.
Actually, a million would be a fairly good start.
That sounds like a great way to start off a serious topic as an adult, TS. Embracing genocide.
Wow, this reporter is out there. Almost all of our leaders of the past generation have boasted as being of, and supporting the neo-con agenda .. In the late 80s it was considered conspiracy but during the last 2 decades they have been using the word to describe their supporting actions openly,,, No one cared but them identifying each other openly.. So now would I start calling Bush/ Cheney / Clinton/ a terrorist? The reporter lumped Zionists in with this killers group.. So you mean all of Israels leadership is a terrorist? And what about Christians.. Did the reporter mean Zionist Christians (a group that even confuses the Jews) or did he mean the Evangelicals who have false preachers teaching them that replacement theology is false but wont tell them that would mean Christ was just a liar? Everyone needs to learn what a neo-con and Zionist is right now before they use the media to gloss this over and confuse you.. now that you may have started wondering what it is and have begun to put the pieces together. Don't get me wrong.. Zionists, Neo-cons and Zionist Christians are guilty of bad stuff... but its way worse than this shooter and way more in your face, yet concealed with confusion at the same time.. while they murder in the 7 digits thus far this century for their neo-con agenda. And get you to cheer it on with the word terrorist..
Who wrote this? Is this signed by an editor?
JaneEco... You should be asking yourself "How did these immigrants get there?".. Who is in charge and doing this? Who gives them travel papers and grant money??. While your at it ask Mrs. Clinton why she is bringing the guys who toppled Libya here too.. They have been identified by her as Muslim, and as AlQadea.. What gives? They are NEO-CONS .. A little invasion of musslims here.. a little there.. its adding up to problems.. and thrives to kill Christianity and liberty.
Jane, well stated, totally true! The world will never see peace until the hate filled, cruel culture of islam is gone forever.
Jane almost has it right. The choice that Islamic "Shariah" Law offers to Non-muslims in the Qur'an is: 1) conversion to islam, 2) subjugation under Islamic rule as 2nd class (at best) citizens, "Dhimmi status" or 3) be put to the sword. There are MILLIONS of Muslims in the world today who strongly approve of this formuia and will do anything to make it a crushing reality for ALL. THAT is what we "anti-jihadists" are trying to resist.
stonedog, what do you mean by "Christian terrorists ?" Are there any Christian terrorist training camps anywhere in the world ? How many Christian suicide bombers have you heard of ?
Get rid of ALL religion ? How about starting with those (that one), which calls for the abolition of our freedoms and our legal system ?
Denver Bill: You are a redneck mentally retarded. Schedule a doctor appt.
out in the woods: Uh, you're serious, right?
There are about 100+ such training camps that claim affiliation with Christianity and white power up here in Idaho, Washington and Montana (although they're about as Christian as horse meat in a vegan restaurant). There's even one about half a mile from my dad's house in Sandpoint. When I visit, I'll take a run by their camp and pet the dog at their front gate.
Shall I introduce you? He's kind of cute for a pitbull.
Alexis, your liberal mentality is showing,when in doubt, call names,,oooh, so intelligent.And Monkey,yours is too, the camps you speak of[ and I do pet the dog],, are defense camps,,not terrorist camps activly blowing up Muttlims by the millions,, and seeking to put you under sharia law,, your ignorance of events is only exceeded by your total ignorance of history.
well, denver bill, mebbe it's time for you to start asking new questions...start by checking out this fascinating page of info....just go slow.....because it may cause your head to explode !-
Gonna try to resubmit this post for DenverBill to read because the link I included got removed for some reason but just wanting to suggest you take a baby step here: and allow this information from engineers, physicists and metalurgists sink in for a while.. just think about what you now understand compared to before.....and you "MAY" start to see things a tiny bit differently...no kidding!
Sounds just like extremist Islamic groups that think the West is conspiring to Westernize their countries. It doesn't matter if you're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist - murder and racial/ideological hatred is wrong. If there's confusion about what murder is, it's killing anyone who is not actively at that moment using deadly force against you or others near you.
Welcome to Obama's America folks. This group which call themselves "Hope not Hate" share their goals with Barak Hussein Obama of putting an end to the anti-terror rhetoric, and the neo-cons, and they mean what they say!
They want to monitor and eventually sue all the neo-cons who talk about the dangers of Islam, and the threat of Islamist groups that support terror. Remember, this is Barak Hussein's last election!
And to those who will call my comments paranoid, just look at his directive to all government agencies not to call Islamic terrorists, ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, and not to use terms like "Global Jihad" "War on Terror" or even "Terrorist".
This is his radical reshaping of America, where fanatic fundamentalists like the Muslim Brotherhood are called a "mostly secular" group and are engaged by the administration. Where the Taliban are negotiated with by the administration! And where honest law abiding citizens are demonized and monitored for speaking up against Islamic terrorism! So far it's only being carefully and slowly implemented, but wait until after HIS LAST ELECTION!
Just wait and see how Obama will change America after the election! You won't even recognize it anymore!
And again to all the liberals who would call this a conspiracy, it's not. This report comes from the same people who advise this president. Like radical leftist Samantha Power, and radical extremist socialists like Jeremiah Wright.
And just remember how Obama dismissed the Supreme Court as a "group of unelected people" who shouldn't exercise their authority under the constitution to repeal unconstitutional laws. These are his words!
Anyone who wants to know more should watch this video on Youtube: "Obama Admits He
Is A Muslim"
It's not a conspirasy theory video, the video simply brings clips of Hussein Obama in his own words!
The Internet has provided a platform for people to promote their agendas and avoid controls...
Do YOU you really think that this and other media sties are not being monitored???
Just like the traffic cams and CCTV cameras which are used to identify criminals and control traffic...
If you think the instant media devices have little effect: The Arab Spring, riots in the UK, and OWS are just three that have used them to their benefit, for disrupting Society and avoiding the POLICE...
The Internet controls are coming to your neighborhood; Just like they have and are being used in; China, Egypt, Iran, etc...
@Duqu: *sigh* Yet another person who insinuates that the President is Muslim in spite of the fact that he's Christian, has been seen in Christian churches (remember Rev. Jeremiah "God Damn America" Wright?"), and has not been seen praying at Mosque, visiting Mecca, or professing Muslim beliefs. Just cause his father is/was a Muslim and decided to name his kid Hussein, it doesn't mean that Barrak is a Muslim. Likewise just because a neo-nazi names his kids Adolf Hitler and Aryan Nation, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to become neo-nazis and try to take over the world. Especially if they aren't raised by their neo-nazi parents, and guess what? Barrak Hussein Obama wasn't raised by his Muslim father! He was raised by his Christian mother. Sorry, but the whole "OMG the President is a Muslim!" thing is a red herring.
You want to dock him for something he actually did wrong, blame him for selling out to the banking system, or for signing away our civil liberties by extending the Patriot Act (which he campained against) and ratifying the NDAA.
There goes Miriam trying to post about how 9/11 was the act of the U.S. government or some such conspiracy theory. When you return to earth from your alien abduction, look at the facts and not the crap published on some wacko web site.
It is hard to believe that their hatred of Islam has not compelled them to take a more serious look at their own religious absurdity.
Historically, there is little difference between Christianity and Islam. They are both violent and oppressive and headed by a cruel, vengeful, deity. Their church leaders always align themselves with a despot.
bagamoto, it's funny you scold someone for namecalling while namecalling yourself. you're right, those camps don't want us under sharia law they want us under christian laws and have been actively trying to make that happen for over 20 years by passing laws. it's ok when you do it though right? hypocrite.
Hatr-
There is no comparison between our laws, which are already founded around basic Christian beliefs, and Sharia law. If there's a Christian group that wants to pass laws to oppress non-christians into second-class citizen status, I'd like to know about it.
Apples and Oranges.
There. Now the article isn't so one-sided anymore.
To All of you : Islam does not teach hate... there is a difference between Islam and what you hear about Islam, do some research for yourslef to learn about Islam instead of been a hater and stop getting you news about Islam from CNN and ABC.
Hate is a sign of weakness and you are better than that...
To those who said.. we need to get rid off Islam.. I say get rid off Alcohol first.. Alcohol is the biggest making problem in the world including hate...
Islam came to clean you up from it but you chose Alcohol to hate Islam.. think about it for a second and look at what you do in life and compare the life you live with what Islam have to offer you.. you will feel so good you have no idea how Great of a person you become when you learn and apply Islam in your life
Again Islam does not teach hate
Islam will continue spreading we like it or not.. it s not our well but it s the well of God
kg, our laws are not based on chritians belief system. the founding fathers were heavily against religion. also, a law doesn't have to make non believers second hand citizens for it to be a religously based law. you need go no further than the christian attempts to force their beliefs about abortion on non christians to find the christian version of sharia. you say apples and oranges only cause you're an apple. it's the same thing but you'd never admit it.
HURTER : Apple and oranges have no brain.. God have givin us a brain to think about the steps and the decisions we make in our life.. God will not forgive us if we say to him.. we followed what was set up on us.. God does not believe in your constitution because you made that not him..
God have always set laws upp on us to follow but we seem to have difficulties following it except what we want and we will not be excused because we had many chances to do his well but we refused just because we did not like it.... it seems that we only like what troubles us like legalize alcohol, Gambling, prostitution, porn movies, be able to expose yourslef any way you want with no respect to no one..etc.. we set up laws that s it s destroying us but we dont know it yet until it s too late! so be my guess and follow it.. at the end we will see if it will end good or bad!
If you support Israel.. Then here is why you should help with a few more votes to make sure we have secured the win for Ron Paul..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyXdKokVOOs&feature=relmfu
BTW.. Delegate.. They call this a Representative form of government for a reason. You must stand up, as a real person, at the end of the fake vote and REPRESENT your REAL vote!! Do it!! Sign up to delegate!! Challenge the old guard.. Challenge the status-quo. Vote for real change!!
Ron Paul 2012.. The Peoples President.. NOT the MEDIA'S.. (they're just more of the status-quo ... the elites talking heads)
Liberty's putting up a pretty good fight!!!! Join the Ron Paul Revolution to put this country back in the peoples hands!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyXdKokVOOs&feature=relmfu
The US constitution is a legal doc. that was required to form the corporation. Required to get loans for our new country.. The constitution included our original or first constitution under our Republic we fought to earn.. Under a republic you are free.. The law is Gods law and the inalienable rights the Lord grants to every born human being.. This was important to our founders so when they had to form the constitution (legal document under commerce) they made sure to include the original which was amendments 1 through 10.. They ended it with the clause that no other amendments be added or taken away. So to sum it up, God conveyed your rights to true freedom and your contract is only an agreement to protect your rights.. Its the authority we the people give.. to have a government to protect it!! That's the job.. That's the oath we make them swear on a BIBLE in public in front of us all and its what is supposed to be of utmost importance to us all. We must be attentive to liberty.. We must vote leaders who follow the oath.. Romney's not even close.. Obama's not even close.. DELEGATE the CHAMPION of our CONSTITUTION.. RON PAUL.
Check out all these Patriots.. This underdog thing called liberty is exploding.. You have to see..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxCClY5afbA
Maxeemas regarding Islam not promoting hate, have you ever even openned the Koran. Defending that arguement is futile against anyone who can actually read. Islam is going to be the bane of tolerant liberals because they believe whole heartedly that they are making friends with the muslims by being tolerant. The fact is they are openning their gates up to a terrible enemy. Simply look at history. It isn't racist, biggoted, or evil to hate Islam...its smart. Besides hating an idiology doesnt make one a bigot.
You're right, care, Pon Raul is part of the problem of crazies working to fark up our society once and for all. The threat isn't external like Islam, it's internal from crackpot hillbillies.
Maxeemus -
Yes, technically you are correct. Islam teaches intolerance. Hate is the inevitable side effect of intolerance.
You're right. There's no difference between advocating adoption instead of abortion and locking women in prison for having unwed sex. Or better yet, just stone the women to death in the name of Allah the Merciful for violating His holy law. Definitely the same thing as using political discourse to try to protect the lives of the unborn.
Now that I'm done being sarcastic, if you'd like to have a serious discussion, come on back.
Crackpot hillbillies would love nothing more than to be left alone to live their lives. You're gonna have to come up with another imaginary villain.
The founding fathers were heavily against forming an official state religion, loosely defined today as mixing church and state, hence, it is specifically prohibited by the Constitution. If you believe the founding fathers were not, for the most part, very religious men, you apparently haven't read many of their personal writings.
Alexis-1950571, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Maxeemas
You are either poorly informed, or you are being less than truthful.
I refer you to the concept of " Al wala wal bara" the Wal bara is the hating part.
http://quranicverse99.tripod.com/islamicways/id15.html
this is how it's put in to practice
Saudi Cleric Muhammad Al-Arifi: "One's Will to Shed Blood, Smash Skulls, and Chop Off Body Parts for the Sake of Allah" Is an Honor for the Believer
Maxeemas writes:
Isn't it ironic how Max rails against sinful living such as alcohol and prostitution, but then in Islamic eschatology the REWARD for, say, being a Muslim warrior 'who kills and is killed for Allah' is a fast track to Paradise with RIVERS OF WINE and SEXUAL LICENSE at every turn.
Why is it that Islamic Paradise is a gluttony of all the sins forbidden on earth?
Maxeemas - You take away my alcohol then we're going to have a REAL problem. I believe if everyone would stop and have a drink the world would be a much nicer place.
Max, I have about as much use for Alcohol as I do for the Muslim Religion. Absolutely None. I don't drink. I have my own religion thank you very much and not interested in converting.
I have no problem with people having their own beliefs so long as they afford me the same rights. Whether Muslims or others like it or not Western culture is based strongly on Western Religion. Our court of Law based largely on the Ten Commandments.
If the Muslims don't like those laws, stay in your own backward countries then. I have no problem with legal immigrants who come to this country for the benefits of freedom they might not enjoy in their own country. Immigration is what made this country great. What I DO have a problem with is the ones who come to this country and then want changes made to our laws and culture because for whatever reason it offends them. Too bad.
An old saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Looks like that could be true in this case..there is little difference between an islamic terrorist and the everyday muslim.
There is little difference between a christian terrorist and an everyday christian, either. The thing is that the differences which do exist are important and significant; the same could be said for any religion or ideology.
If we are to get rid of religion, then it must be ALL religion.
That's just what is happening in Europe right now. They've been Christian for centuries and now with the multiculturalism, they're being told to be "fair" to Everyone they can't publicly practice their religion anymore. Italy being told to take down their crucifixes, etc. It's part of the problem! Why don't you go to the middle east, and tell them if they can't except Christians then no religion can be practiced. Good Luck.
Stone...one huge difference here, in our modern day times Christians do not demand killing of non-believers, nor do they demand control over secular laws. Muslims do both....
Jack-1522032
I do agree with Muslims wanting govt laws written from the Koran....but if you have read some of the posts on Newsvine you can see where Christians want to do away with our 1st Amendment and the Separation of Church State....by changing our laws to fit there beliefs.
Are you kidding?? Christians are demanding control over secular law in the US right now. Though I will grant you that other than some crackpots like Robertson who frequently wish ill on homosexuals, there are few main stream christians calling for killing of non-believers. But then in reality there are not huge numbers of everyday muslims calling for killing of unbelievers.
LOL Really?
So they aren't trying to get the bible legislated as 'science' in the classroom?
They aren't trying to prevent sex education?
They aren't fighting against gay marriage?
They aren't fighting to limit services to women seeking abortions or trying to ban abortions altogether?
They aren't constantly interfering in the advancement of stem cell research? Research that has the potential to help millions of people?
There aren't people constantly calling for the return of this country to its 'Christian roots'?
I could go on, but I think you get the point. Christians might not generally be violent, but that doesn't mean that their religion isn't just as much of a threat to freedom as Islam is.
"there are few main stream christians calling for killing of non-believers. But then in reality there are not huge numbers of everyday muslims calling for killing of unbelievers."
So then why are people making it such a big issue?
Jack,
Incorrect, Evangelicals in modern day America absolutely wish to write new laws for all Americans. They display hate and intolerance of anyone who is not like them. They may not kill as many people (and yes, they do kill) but they demand basic rights be denied to all who do not worship they way they do. Tim McVeigh would be a prime example of how they do kill and commit acts of terrorism. Not to mention the bombings of clinics and the murder of doctors that perform the completely legal act of abortion.
Evangelicals are a very ignorant people as they don't know much about their religion or it's principals, but what they do know is exactly who their pastors tell them to hate, and exactly for whom their pastors tell them to vote. They hate America with a passion. They see our progressive nation moving away from the intolerance they so passionately embrace, and they hate it. They hate that a man of color is the most powerful man in our country. They hate that our country extends a helping hand to those in need. They hate that the constitution comes before the bible (although, they don't even follow most of what's in the bible.) What binds these people together is that they all hate the same people and things.
Nailed it. What else can be said? We all knew that it would be only a time before the mainstream public would start pushing back at the Islamofascists.
Yeah. Watch out for them flying airplanes into buildings. GOTCHA.
*Rolls eyes*
I wasn't alive in the 50s, but the current debate on Muslims in the West reminds me of what I've read of the McCarthy era and how everyday Americans felt about Communists. Has the same hysterical tone, too.
lol Virginia Democrat78, do you even know what the word "evangelical" means? Your biography on Evangelicals makes me laugh, it sounds like a 8th graders description of Orc's from Lord of the Rings.
Basically anyone who writes "I <3 Jesus" along with a bible quote can be called an evangelical. They can be called that because to evangelize means to spread(a message) out and that comment is basically giving a message, thus evangelizing. idk about you but many people i know don't go around hating people, having constant hate, and the like.
Christ was know as the prince of peace.. If your thinking war then you must be thinking Judaism or Catholicism. Not true Christians.. Read Christs work..
As a Catholic I consider myself Christian. Don't tell me I've been on these vines defending Christians and you're the people who go into a frenzy on a Catholic article.
Blue-Lightsaber
Nice redefinition of Evangelical' , but that doesn't change the fact that evangelicals support politicians that promise to destroy the rights of the many to please the few [evangelicals]. Separation of religion and civil governance is what makes this country work. Anyone trying to undermine that part of our constitution to satisfy their own selfish religious fervor is a fool.
Just wait until Islam has its numbers Big al if you think this is bad.
I was only associating Catholicism with historical war. If you feel I'm wrong please explain, but regardless accept my apology if you will. I know its a touchy subject.. If your a christian, you know it in your heart.. And if you say you are I believe you. But I do not wish to see Christ associated with war because a reporter wishes to.. Its giving Christ a bad name.. As I stated, the man was known as the Prince of Peace.
Well said big Al... I liked the last part most... And I'm sick of reporters mixing it for us.
Thank you.
noiwontyesiwill
Jack-1522032
please please show me any amendment that says separation of church and state!
Do you even have an idea where this came from? hint it was in a private letter written by one of the founders. The true admendment is violated daily when peple are prohibited from expessing themselves about there faith wether it be a validictorian prohibited from thanking god for their faith that allowed the to suceed at what they acomplished or it being the person who stands on the sidewalk and preaches and is arrested for it. the government is supposed to make NO law respecting religion NO law should include banning speach for or against, this also does not include a FREEDOM FROM religion
the first admendment states prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
It was not even a part of the constitution as they started ( and still do ) the house and senate sessions with a prayer, they choose a "chaplain" for the prayer, and provides and coordinates religious programs and pastoral care support.
The bible was one of the few books first used in "public" schools for education.
The ten commandments are above the head of the supreme court justices and are the basis for the laws we adhere to.
to those arguing that Christians want to take your freedom, remember that Christians are influencing laws the same way anyone else does, BY VOTING, they have the right in a democracy to support laws that favor themselves just like anyone else, the difference between this and the jihadists is that jihadists intend to replace the democracies with theocracies, christians arent trying to give the power of the president to their preachers, they are acting in a democratic fashion to pass laws they favor.
The Evangelical movement of which I speak is a sect of pseudo-Christianity that follows the doctrine of 1800's preacher John Nelson Darby. Though most Evangelicals wouldn't know that name, they certainly follow his teachings of hate, fear, intolerance and a false biblical justification of selfishness. John Nelson Darby's teachings have had a major impact on how "Christianity" developed in the US. He is the inventor of the concept of "rapture" (which exists nowhere in the bible) and used fear tactics to get people into his church. He taught that it was ok to hate as long as you hate the right people (basically anyone that did not follow him.) As for the literal definition of the word "evangelical" well, I can call myself a duck all day long, that doesn't make me a duck. These people would like to think that what they are spreading is the word of God, instead of the hate and selfishness that it really is.
bluethunder,
When was the last time "thee coveted thy neighbor's ass or her manservant"? BTW, that refers to a donkey, for all I know, your neighbor has a nice ass or a hunky manservant and you have coveted it/him.
But I digress. Four commandments have to do with worshiping god (if you count the one about the sabbath being holy). You'd think that if these were going to be the 10 most important things to follow, god would have focused on a few other things. He might have gone lighter on the "i'm a jealous god thing" and based them on something more relevant and timeless than the things in the immediate experience of the author (not god but the guy looking around his time and place).
Oh I don't know, things like don't beat or rape your children or your wife may have been important to throw in there.
Don't be a douche to other people is big in my book.
Anyway, my point is, I'm glad we are a little more enlightened about the way we govern ourselves - though we can always improve things a little. How about you practice your beliefs at your church, with other like-minded people. We promise not to bother you there as long as you keep your bull$#!t off the public square. Deal?
To JM, why do you call religion bull@!$%#, I will make a deal with you, why don'tyou keep your bull@!$%# off the public square, ie: OWS
Give this some thought if you "think" you have figured out who the 'bad guys' are.....if you're still trying to figure out..even more reason to give this some thought- .
JM 1 for the record i do not attend any church. 2. Whether you like it or not this country was founded on religious beliefs and the 1ST amendment gives everyone the right to profess there beliefs in public. so whether you want it on the "public square" or not is of very little value as that is exactly what is guaranteed in the constitution. Although people like you are doing there best to prevent people from being able to follow there first admendment rights but do wish to be able to spout any bs you wish. And as far as what YOU think the ten commandments should have been, It was not given to you as a choice of what YOU wanted them to be, they were what "God" wanted them to be.
During the 800s, the Muslims moved ot of the Middle East into Europe and Asia. When they reached Siam, the Buddhist met the aggression with non-violence, millions were killed. This eastward expansion continued for almost 300+years, until the Muslims reached the Chinese Pacific coast. Then during the 1100's Genghis Khan united the many isolated Mongol tribes and eventually drove the Muslims back to Iran & Iraq... BTY - He and his Empire was Buddhist...
In the 1930's, shortly after Hitler's rise to power, the eradication of the European Jews started. The World did little until Hitlers Troops reached the English Channel...
In 1950, shortly after Mao Zedong's communist revolution, China invaded Tibet. The Buddhist religion in Tibet was labeled at a "disease to be eradicated." When Tibet asked for WORLD help against the invading Chinese Army, they were IGNORED...
IMO - The World needs another Genghis Khan...
I don't go to any churches either. You meet better people in bars. One of my drinking buddies is a Muslim, he's a really nice guy. Perhaps having all those things that preachy people don't like, legally and readily available, is our best defense against religious nutbags of any denomination. Homeland security should invest in building some new strip clubs as one of their anti-terrorist programs.
Somebody finally gets it. The Constitution does not provide for a complete separation of church and state. Furthermore, the First Amendment wasn't just to protect government from the influence of religion--it was to protect religion from the influence of government. There are two clauses:
Establishment: Government cannot establish a religion. This has been broadened by court rulings to also mean that government cannot give preference to any one religion. This is why having the Ten Commandments in a public display is unconstitutional, but a nativity scene combined with other religious holiday scenes is constitutional. This also allows government to work with religions to serve secular purposes (such as charity). However, public schools cannot allow for a sanctioned school prayer, as this would be endorsing religion.
Free Exercise: Government cannot prohibit the free exercise of one's religions beliefs. This is not absolute, as there may be some circumstances in which there is a compelling interest to limit the exercise of beliefs (such as requiring Muslim women to take their head scarf off for a driver's license photograph on the grounds of public safety).
Finally, most religious people of all faiths are pretty good people that will be willing to give you a hand. It is the extremists (Muslim or Christian) that ruin the image of religion for everyone. Unfortunately, not enough moderates of any faith are willing to publicly take on the extremists and say they are not true Muslim/Christian/etc. If they did the world might be a better place.
bluethunder,
1) If the founding fathers had wanted this to be a theocracy, they would have codified it. They didn't.
2) The founding documents of this country were shaped by many influences from many different sources: theMagna Carta, Greek ideals of democracy, an yes, religious texts. However the founding fathers had the wisdom and the vision to secularize them. That the influences were christian is a mere accident of history and geography. Had the first settlers been Muslim, you would be praying to Allah now. The best thing our founders did was to separate religion from government. They were pretty sick of the church's influence on public policy. Trying to reverse that is misguided and dangerous. Doing so would make us a christian version of Saudi Arabia.
3) You absolutely have a right to say whatever you want. I absolutely support that. I guess I could have put that a little more artfully. So let me rephrase: practice your beliefs as you see fit, try to impose them on me or try to inject them into the laws of this land, and you will have an argument from me.
4) The ten commandments are irrelevant. It is as if you are saying that we couldn't have figured out that killing and stealing was wrong without a fictitious supreme being telling us so. You ought to give thinking humans a little more credit than that. It was a thinking human being who made them up in the first place.
Z-man,
I don't even know where to start with your comment. In fact, I don't think I want to invest the time in trying to explain why I call religion bull$#!t. If you can't figure it out from my self-expalatory statement, you are beyong my ability to explain it to you.
Jm please think before you comment or at least learn a bit more.
It was not an accident of history and geography otherwise you would be speaking in an indian dialect right now as they were not the first.
The founding fathers did not secularize religion, far from it in fact, yes they did not want the "church" running and TAXING people like it was in England as well as wanting everyone to have a chance to believe what they chose to. But as far as separating them fully NO they did not. the 10 commandments are above the heads of the supreme court judges, both the house and senate CHOOSE a Chaplin to lead the sessions starting prayer and help with religious items, the president was always sworn in on the bible, most books used in early schools included passages from the bible and referenced God. The Bible was also one of the few books used in schools and schools such as Harvard were started based on teaching the Bible. All early schools started the day with a prayer just like the senate and house of reps does.. THERE WAS NO SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, but what there was was an acceptance of religious freedom so that the "church" could not impose rules and taxes on the citizens, and there were many States that had a promoted religion (state sponsored church). Even today the senate and house of reps have a chosen Chaplin to lead the start of sessions with a prayer.
Actually JM the founding fathers were tired of the government interfering with the church like it did in England where King Henry VIII made himself the head of the church so he could behead his wife. By saying that we are endowed with certain inalienable rights BY OUR CREATOR, they made it quite clear that they believed in a creator god and most of them were Christian and the rest Jewish. The establishment clause was added to address concerns that someone might try to claim that they had the right to practice a religion, such as Islam, that they considered a pagan belief and not a religion. The govt. has violated this clause by establishing several religions such a recognizing voodoo, wiccans and L. Ron Hubbard's followers. By granting the same status to these beleifs as Christianity and Judaism the Govt. has in fact established a religion from a cult following. The Founding Fathers were very clear in their personal writings that the only reason that this form of Govt. could succeed was through Christian beliefs. Christians are not trying to force their beliefs on you, they are using the vote to stop you from forcing your beliefs on them.
Abortion and most of the items you listed were forced upon the country by the courts that overturned precedent and some such as Roe vs Wade are so nebulous that even its supporters consider the decision to be a huge stretch. Passing any law could be said to be forcing the belief of the majority on the those who disagree. Making rape, theft, or assault a crime is forcing our belief on those who think these things are OK isn't it? If you do not think so ask the Man/Boy Love group if outlawing pedophile behaviour is forcing your belief on them. Ask those who practice polygamy if outlawing it is forcing your belief on them.
I do believe, after studying history, that Islam is not a religion but a political belief system much like Fascism that was written by one person to benefit himself and any who unquestionably followed him. Even Mohamed's wife said that Allah often changed his word to benefit Mohamed which is why the Koran is so full of contradictions, such as a prohibition against drinking and fornication yet promises plenty of both if you kill an unbeliever and go to paradise. If you think that the average Muslim does not support the Jihadist, you are mistaken. Where do you think they get the millions of dollars it takes to recruit, maintain the training camps and schools that teach this violence, buy the weapons and pay for the travel to the countries where their attacks take place? Wake up, reach down your throat and pull your head out of your Azz.
Milgram's experiment
“If you think that the average Muslim does not support the Jihadist, you are mistaken. Where do you think they get the millions of dollars it takes to recruit, maintain the training camps and schools that teach this violence, buy the weapons and pay for the travel to the countries where their attacks take place? Wake up, reach down your throat and pull your head out of your Azz.”
Ummm America via Saudi Arabian oil
I love how this article paints such a scary picture, and right in the beginning it says that the group protesting against them was larger. Maybe it's people getting together to protect Their culture and homeland instead of sitting passively by watching an invasion. Europe used to be fighters. Maybe too much so, they almost destroyed themselves. Now in this weakened and passivist state, another strong group is coming in and taking over. It's happened all over all thru history. This article keeps talking about Breivik, but he did Not go after Muslims, he went after children of passivist politicians. Either he's (Breivik) full of s***- the article says he called for working with Hamas, he killed Norwegians, And he set the anti immigration movement way back--or he was too chicken to take on the Muslims and went for an easier target. How could the group doing the research call themselves hope not hate, when the people are being made to feel hopeless?
unbelievable, they do not show us a picture of the group protesting against them. If you see the pictures in German publications, you will see that that group consisted to a great extent of youths clad in white muslim garb with beards. They hardly speak any German and have clearly been brought in to intimidate peaceful protesters. All part of their plan. They are Salafists, the Wahabi Sect that Ben Laden belonged to.
Unbelievable: it didn't go so well for the Aztecs who didn't want to be overrun with filthy, foul, disease-ridden Catholic Spaniards either. Nor did it with my own Auntie Rose (Puyallup Indian) who had her arm broken by a Catholic priest because he lost his temper when she forgot to speak English and instead spoke in her own Native tongue. She was picked up so roughly (she was six) by her little arm that it snapped. Then she was punished for crying. The arm was never set and never fully usable again. Don't even go there with me about your "christian" beliefs. You have no clue about Christianity or you wouldn't be chanting by rote and calling a mortal man Holy Father (not to mention confessing to them like they're authorized to do that) in a garish ostentatious church and practicing more pagan rituals than Druids do.
I have some great prints of Catholic bishops blessing warplanes including the Enola Gay before it took off and killed over 110,000 innocent civilians. Peaceful, my ass.
Well, "UNBELIEVEABLE".....if you're think the article above paints a scary picture because it's Reporting the news about people being whipped up into a frenzy of fear and hatred about the latest scapegoat group, I think you're on the right path....when folks start assuming they "understand" something that is totally PROPAGANDIZED ...without noticing that it is propaganda...then you GOTTA start asking more questions...for instance, starting with day 1...you need to understand that almost everything we "think we know" about 9-11 is BS. start with a tiny step by looking at this and then just THINK about what you've seen and read .....for a few days.....just let it settle in and think about the PHYSICS of it...the science of it.the engineering of it......and the TRUTH of it.. Just baby steps....
Oh Miriam, you just lost ALL credibility with your 9-11 "inside job" conspiracy crap.
oh Adams44....you must be a some kinda genius.....you were able to dismiss so much so quickly...you must be one of those idiot savants....no need to read at all...you got it all thru the transmission in your tinfoil hat...LOL do tell...building number 7...sums it up once again I'm asking only people with functional cerebella to examine simple rational logical physics. babystep doc com .we'll excuse you Adam44.
Darn it....cant figure out why the short link I keep trying to post just "disappears" AFTER its been accepted and or edited to ensure the link is there. hmmm. makes ya wonder....seems like someone doesn't like the idea of asking a simple dang question....NBC even Tom Brokaw reflected on this....so did Dan Rather....so Didn't George Stephanopolous and even Fox's Carl Cameron....then whoooosh....its gone...every single trace of these very obvious significant huge gaping questions.....are dismissed....in a flash. Weird.....truly. How is it that 3500 Engineers, architects, metalurgists, physicists and other professional people who design, build, test, and know metals properties, understand the natural laws of physics are suddenly 911insideconspiracycrackpots ??? In one fell swoop? aren't y'all just a teensy bit curious as to why Building Number 7 just freaking disintegrated at 5:30pm that horrific day? it was hundreds of yards away from the downed buildings North and South towers...had no plane hit it.....did not burn...but just collapsed on itself just as if it was a DEMOLITION.....how could a steel building just 'disintegrate' on itself?? STEEL DOESNT just blow up or melt at JP4 temps and there was NO jet fuel on building number 7 ......none....and the paper and wooden desks and picutres never burned up...it just exploded...just as the previous two towers sank down into themselves. IT DEFIES THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.......IF you have just one stinking doubt about anything of that day.....then everything you've learned since is absolutely positively BS. Most people cannot stand having two competing ideas in their head at the same time and its too scary to think that those buildings were previously set for demolition for some odd reason.....That they had asbestos that required the new owner to modify....but the expense!!! And what about those celebrating Israelis with cameras on the roof positioned to capture the second plane BEFORE the plane arrived?! they were seen and reported by an elderly neighbor who called police in Jersey to report a small group of men on the roof celebrating ?!! the NYPD did locate and stop their vans which had traces of explosives in them......but this story too has been "disappeared". EvenFox news carried it.Carl Cameron reported it ....and then POOF....gonzo. You NEED to ask QUESTIONS.
tis late...so just one final thought.....I was wondering why EACH time I posted a short link for y'all to read, and I'd even watch it after I'd edit to RE-apply the link as it would 'disappear' minutes after I posted it....I tried to find new ways to post this little link called 911babystep DOT com but each and every time I posted it...it would just disappear. I wondered if policy was to disallow posting ANY links...but I noted that some posted some religious links and such but yet I tried four different times to leave the link to 911babystep dot com and then finally decided I'd give it one more college try....Check it out....and think about it is all I'm asking....just think.
Miriam,
You can't post links until you been active on the vine for a while. I think it's two weeks. It helps to discourage advertisers and other obnoxious types.
No, it's just for Miriam. The powers that be do not like her opinion and so her link is blocked. It's another CONSPIRACY! lol
Perhaps this is an indication that the progressives should back off with their pushing more Islamic influence on European society. It is a high price to pay for infringing political correctness.
And maybe some of our Judges should NOT rule that Islamic (Sharia) Law can be used in a U.S. court of law.
Looks like the Judges are "pushing" for more "Islamic influence" in America.
Maybe it is time to "excuse" these Judges from the bench....permanently.
A curse on our freedom and quality of life comes from the liberal judges who kow-tow to every muslim whim and the dictates of thier hate filled religious culture.
Uh, Ido? We have this nifty little thing called the First Amendment...
Uh, Toastytarts......we also have these little nifty things called secular laws.
That was the whole @!$%#ing point, HT.
Secular laws? They were made by Christians when Christians were the absolute majority. When the Moslems become a majority, the laws will change. Will of the people and all that.
We in the United States do and did not have a problem with showing a cartoon drawing of Mohamed with a bomb on his head. It made a great political point. European Liberals said that it was not PC and we should show respect to the leader of 1 billion people. Those PC people saw that Denmark lost exports of all dairy products to the Moslem nations and attacks on the news papers that printed them. In order to keep peace and still do business, European Capitalists and Liberals decided to pressure the press to be quite and now the Moslem populations have gotten to the point that they can make their own laws as the Liberal Europeans are afraid to interfere. In time, the populations will be so large that they can just vote out the Liberals and turn Europe into an Islamic State.
After the history of the NAZIs and the cooperation of the peoples invaded going after Jews, the EU governments don't want to hear any thing that is anti Moslem because it sounds like anti Jew NAZI talk. BUT they are starting to wake up to the reality that the Jews were not a threat and were passive where the organized Moslems are the opposite.
Keep in mind that the VAST amount of the 1 billion Moslems want to live in peace, but those Billion are controlled by a society that will not allow dissent. Where as in the West, we have the ability to say anything against God and any one the professes to be religious with no fear of being killed. This is the problem with allowing this huge influx of people that do not respect the Christian lands that give them shelter and food. They bring this BS religion with them.
Hitler invaded Europe with tanks and planes, Moslems invade with out stretched hands and then will cut off that hand should they get strong enough BECAUSE IT IS THE LAW OF THEIR KORAN! You can not talk against it because it is the word of Allah.
My solution is to make ALL people that move to the West to read and agree to the laws of the countries that they are going to. Let them sign a statement that says that they will uphold those laws and if they don't expel them and send them back to whatever @!$%# hole they came from. If they don't like the benefits of living in the West, kick them out. And that especialy includes breaking laws like welfare fraud, child beating and having multiple wives.
MOS,
America is a secular nation. You can practice any religion you want here, or no religion. Laws are not created constitutionally with the influence of religion; DOMA is a perfect example of an unconstitutional law crafted by religious panderers.
Islam cannot "take over" our country without first changing our constitution. In order for that to happen they have to have a majority in Congress which is not going to happen.
Ido,
Even the obviously slanted article in your link couldn't disguise the fact that the judge was merely upholding normal contract law in regards to choosing an arbiter to resolve disputes. The case had nothing to do with Sharia law in our courts. Mr. French, the main complainant in the article, is a crackpot, not an expert.
Thanks for the link.
Ido, that's a CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN judge arbitrating between two Muslim entities in the same way a judge will use Jewish law to arbitrate between two Jewish parties who agree.
Anders Berhing Breivik is not an anti-jihadist so much as he is just a bat $hit crazy mass murderer. There is a huge difference in Muslims and Christians though and all the PC crowd can deny it all they want, but there has not been many suicide bombing Christians, or the flying of airplanes into buildings by Christians, or for that matter by any other fanatic in the name of their religion except by the Muslims. 500 years ago the Christians were like the modern day Muslims. Islam is not a religion so much as it is a political system that brings it own religion with it. It is very much like Nazism, Mein Kampf means "my struggle" and jihad means "struggle", very similar there. Both hate the Jews. yet Islam is marketed as a religion and Nazism is a political system, so Islam is tolerated by the PC crowd and Nazism is trashed by the same PC crowd. I don't think either is acceptable. The main stream Muslims are indeed not much different than the extremist Muslims.
It sounds like it's, well, everyone banding together except Muslims.
As it needs to be. It's about time.
Robbie, the moslems are already bound together.
SLOWLY the population of the West is starting to wake up to the threat of having immigrants that don't want to become citizens, but want to change the free and rich lands into the same type of @!$%# holes from which they came. Places where the Sheik and Immam have all the power because that is the will of Allah. Who are we to question the will of Allah?
Well, in the West we question EVERYTHING...INCLUDING God. Here we are free to decide IF we believe or not.
My whole attitude is what did anybody really expect? Perhaps if the vast majority of Muslims, described as entirely peaceful and moderate, that I keep hearing about in the media, wasn't such a silent majority and actively engaged the jihadist elements within their religion, then there wouldn't be an ultra-nationalist backlash organizing against Muslim immigrants.
Until the Islamic world finally has it's version of the Protestant Reformation and decides to make a serious distinction between theology and governance, the whole Us vs. Them thing will only escalate until it eventually reaches the self-fulfilling apocalyptic cataclysm that all these may religions speak about.
Finally, Europe is starting to understand their countries, cultures and way of life is in real danger- from radical Islam and unchecked third world immigration
Time to nut up or shut up
Counter-Jihadist? I'll have to get this on a bumper sticker.
"Justified" hate, intolerance, violence and racism. Are we entering another Nazi period? You can bet that every militia member in the US is a Tea Party Person. You also bet that many of these same militias are Nazi Groups.
Yes, like Islam is tolerant? please
It is what is in the Koran that they follow that worries me:
From Allah's Book of Recitations, the
Qur'an
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful ...
"O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends;
they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of
them. God guides not the people of the evildoers." 9:51
"This is the recompense of
those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do
corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and
feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land.
That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits
them a mighty chastisement, except for such as repent, before you have power
over them. So know you that God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate."
5:32-33
"And when Allah revealed to the angels, saying: 'I shall
be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts
of the unbelievers. Strike them above the necks, smite their finger tips!' "
8:12
“If you gain mastery of them in battle, inflict such a defeat
as would terrorize them, so they would learn a lesson and be warned.” 8:57
"Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the
idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in
wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the
prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving,
All-compassionate." 9:5 [The verse of the
sword]
"Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2)
nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and
His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e.
Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay
the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
9:29
"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief
and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion
(worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they
cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of
what they do." 8:39
"And know that whatever of war-booty that you may gain,
verily one-fifth (1/5th) of it is assigned to Allah, and to the Messenger, and
to the near relatives [of the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)], (and also) the orphans,
Al-Masakin (the poor) and the wayfarer, if you have believed in Allah and in
that which We sent down to Our slave (Muhammad SAW) on the Day of criterion
(between right and wrong), the Day when the two forces met (the battle of Badr)
- And Allah is Able to do all things." 9:41 [Muhammad gets 20%]
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let
them find harshness in you." 9:123
Took me awhile to find this one but consider this WesternThinker:
The Prophet, may he rest in peace, said:
“If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those
who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by
terrorizing Allah’s enemies.” Ishaq: 326
“Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall
fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking
refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy
ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We
have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will
fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must
suffer disgrace.” Ishaq: 587
“I have been given five things which were
not given to anyone else. Allah made me victorious with terror. Earth was made
for me.... Booty was made lawful for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else. I
was given the right of intercession on the Day of Doom. Every Prophet used to be
sent to his nation only, but I have been sent to all mankind.” Bukhari:
V1B7N331
“If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.” Bukhari:
V4B52N260
"Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion,
all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.” Ishaq: 324
“Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.” Ishaq: 587,
“Allah has hated you for asking to many
questions [about the Qur’an].” Bukhari: V2B24N555
Yes Western thinker we are entering a new nazi era and it's called Islam.
noiwon't, thank you for the verses. What is disturbing is how similar it is to portions of the Hebrew Scriptures where the Hebrews were told to do exactly the same thing. And many cases of idolators (a cross on a wall being prayed to is an idol, are you with me, Unbelievable?? this would be yourself) being slain because they were giving their adulation to idols and riches. And many being ordered to submit to the Hebrew God's teachings and practices or DIE. I can quote chapter and verse too (which I may have to do for all the "christians' who never crack a Bible and have NO clue what it says or they wouldn't practice what they do) but it's pretty clear that that would be frustrating to a lot of our readers here. My point is, a lot of established religions started that way. Unfortunately Muslims are still doing it even though they are not at risk of being wiped out by pagan hordes anymore, nor are Christians....and yes, let's do recall when all of Europe was under a threat of death (from the Catholic Church) because of attempting to own and read portions of the scriptures. False religion is false religion and all of them generate zealots, ignorance, and violence.
I am not saying all religion is false either, but you can sure tell who is a subscriber to one of them.
Adela, Jesus Christ said that he is here to give a new way. NEW WAY...he went into long stories about how he was not for the old ways of the Jews. That is probably why Christians don't crack the Old Testiment too much. Because it is the OLD way of doing things, not the NEW Way.
Hmmm? I wonder at what point will we admit that the Christian world had religious terrors BUT that was HUNDREDS of years ago and out of that we now have the most free lands in the history of human civilizations? How was it that the West bacame so free? Was it because the average person could read the teaching of Christ? Things like "Do to others as you would want them to do to you?"
Do not excuse the Moslems of today because Christains did similar things years ago. We have learned much since then and I think that we are more Christ like today then ever before. AND like those Christians that spoke out against the NAZIS and Communists (most died) many people today are not afraid to speak out against the NAZI Moslems.
Adela, no Christian prays to a cross on a wall any more than a Jewish person prays to the Torah in the synagogue or a Muslim prays to the prayer rug on which he kneels. Christians pray to God, and they certainly don't confuse him with a symbol. Some people bow before the altar in reverence, but that is in reverence to God not in worship to a cross. I'm just telling you so that you will understand this and not be confused. The Hebrew scriptures never tell the Israelites to kill all unbelievers where they find them or anything like that. They are not even told to commit genocide. There are specific instructions to kill certain people in certain cities and to spare people in other areas. The times people are struck down and killed specifically for not believing or for believing in idols are cases of Israelites who had made a voluntary vow or covenant with God in a theocratic government and had broken that vow. If the government was a theocracy, then its head (king) would be God-therefore, breaking faith with God and serving another sovereign (idol) would essentially be treason. Most governments punish treason with death.
BTW, there are countries in the Islamic world today where a person can get the death penalty for converting to another religion from the Muslim faith. I know of one such person right now who faces the death penalty in Iran for such "apostasy." Members of the US Congress have worked for his release and the White House itself issued a statement condemning his sentence. A big difference here from the situation in ancient Israel, however, is that this man never made a vow to serve Allah all his life-also Iran's laws are supposed to allow a person to change their religion. In other words, Iran is not a theocracy.
Most, if not all people groups in ancient Palestine would expand and conquer other people groups for living space. Hebrew laws spelled out very specifically how captives had to be treated-a woman could not be raped but had to be brought home and cared for by the man for an entire month without being touched then she could only be touched if the man married her and gave her full status as a wife. If he chose not to do that, he had to set her free to go where she pleased without harming her. By contrast, the Assyrians literally flayed their captives alive and impaled them on poles and bragged about it on a large stone carving that is in the British Museum today. Other people groups in Palestine (or Canaan) sacrificed their firstborn sons and mixed the blood with the foundations of their homes and cities to gain the favor of their gods or sacrificed infants by placing them in the arms of a superheated metal statue of a god and burning them alive, beating drums to cover the sound of the screaming. They had temple prostitutes-both young girls and young boys, who were essentially sex slaves-for worship rituals. All of these practices were forbidden to the Israelites-they were supposed to drive out the people who did them so that they would not start doing them also.
The Christian church did not write or rewrite the Hebrew scriptures, by the way, contrary to popular belief. They existed as the Septuagint at least 100 years prior to the birth of Christ. Modern Bible translations refer to the Septuagint along with other manuscripts such as the Masoretic Text, which is a more recent Hebrew text and is the authoritative Jewish text, and the Dead Sea Scrolls as part of their translation process.
Of course, neither Jewish people nor Christians are perfect. Nor are people of any other religion. We all have our dark side, unfortunately. Even the Hebrew scriptures are full of stories of how the Israelites continually failed to follow the laws and were punished and oppressed by enemies. We all basically need God to save us.
Sure sounds like that prophet mohammed freak got buttseck'd by some jew or christian back in the day.
why so serious?
WesternThinker,
Do you think that if Europe's Jews in the 1930s had well organized, armed militias and actively engaged in their own self-preservation things like Kristallnacht or the Holocaust might have gone differently? With no support from the rest of the world, the Jewish Resistance managed to hold off the German Army for a month during the Warsaw Uprising with hardly more than pistols and homemade grenades.
If the world learned anything from the Nazis it's the idea that going down fighting certainly beats passively participating in ones own extermination.
Dear Christians and Muslims and all other "box religions" - if you really need to have another "My god's **** is bigger than your god's ****" battle, go do it somewhere else (unpopulated russia, for instance) so those of us that actually want peace can have it. Thank you.
Well said, we. Well said.
That's really not the issue.
Actually, weusal, Russia is very much populated, but that does not stop Chechen rebels and Russian neo-Nazis from taking your advice and having a "My god's **** is bigger than your god's ****" battle there as well.
And if you suggest that they take this battle to the moon, someone will start a similar battle there as well, but the battles that are happening hear will also continue.
I realize all of that, but I was speaking figuratively... nobody can solve this until those factions either learn to live with people that are different or they all eliminate each other... I just wish they'd stop and all realize how stupid they're all being!
Weusall, like in Stalin's Russia? According to Socialist Review, the Bolsheviks did what they could to get rid of Christianity initially, then the communists eventually turned on Islam. History also shows how that turned out!
Then you have this:
from The Communist Manifesto on anu.edu.au
Regarding what happened under Stalin in that society where they had tried getting rid of religion:
from britannica.com
And then there was Mao, and Pol Pot. I'm only saying that maybe, just maybe getting rid of all religion isn't the way to peace.
Weusall, the above was a response to your earlier post. It took me a while to do the research. I fully agree that people of different religions really need to stop fighting and killing each other. I particularly don't get Christians doing it since it is completely against our teachings.
test
It's Christian's and Bush's fault, anyway.
as long as islam has the oil ,europeans will be kissing their .ss .
There is nothing wrong with that,we are kissing the israelis azz everyday.
Peacekeeper for president. Seriously.
How is America kissing Israel's ass?....Americans are fighting in the middle east to protect their oil interests and to start up gold mines, like the one JP Morgan set up in Afghanistan.
Israel isn't getting help....they are being used. Stop blaming the Jews for everything.
Can't say I'm surprised to see this. Unfortunately, the muslims have no one to blame but themselves. If you are not a hard-core IslamoFascist, then you sit quietly by and say and do nothing, while your muslim brothers murder everyone else in the name of Allah. Meanwhile, the politically correct progressive apologists in the U.S., bend over backwards not to "offend" - not helpful and not a solution. Trying to "not offend" Hitler, gave us World War II.
Seems to me, if the muslims want an equal seat at the global table, they need to earn it - just like everyone else. Intolerant religions should not be tolerated - and PLEASE, spare me about what the Christians did, several centuries ago.....we're in 2012 now, no other major religious denomination on earth supports the wholesale murder of others, EXCEPT Islam.
And today, in 2012, Evangelical "Christians" are incredibly intolerant, selfish and hateful people.
Come on Virginia. Not the same thing and not the issue of what's happening in the world or in Europe. You are either in the dark or a Muslim with a fake moniker.
Ummmm, Virginie??? Are these Christians flying planes into buildings??? When?? I must have missed that one. Are these Christians sending suicide bombers into civilian centers??? Really?? Missed that one as well. Where, exactly in the New Testament are Christians specifically directed to kill non-Christians?? I can't find it in my version, can you please help???
You are part of the problem, of which I just spoke - thanks for proving my point.
The intolerant, hateful ones aren't real Christians, just as jihadists and terrorists aren't real Muslims. And on a side note, you don't see evangelical Christians attempting to commit acts of terror.
That's not to say that a lot of muslims don't behave in the same way, but even Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all I see are Evangelicals casting stones at anyone who is not exactly like them. Let's talk about why Evangelicals say homosexuals threaten the sanctity of marriage, yet Evangelicals themselves have the highest divorce rate of any demographic in the nation (Mark 10, Jesus denounces divorce, calls it adultery.)
kj,
Tim McVeigh = Evangelical Christian
clinic bombings, murder of doctors who perform abortions, bombings and arson of "liberal churches"
........ I would guess the latter. Teeming with intolerance to boot.
JJA,
Yes, Tim McVeigh. Some have walked into "liberal churches" and opened fire, some bomb abortion clinics, some murder doctors that perform abortions. Just because you don't want it to be true, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I do not subscribe to any religion. I was raised in a Christian household, but once I actually studied the Bible, I found it to be a complete work of fiction. Most evangelicals are the way they are because they know absolutely diddly squat about the book they carry on sundays.
wrong, he was an agnostic. that's actually being racist to profile him as an evangelical (his closest ties to Christianity were Catholic, anyway). and 8 abortion murders in the last 40 years doesn't compare with the thousands of innocent people killed by Muslims in the last year alone.
Your comparisons are fatuous and frankly, pathetic. Every time one of these posts starts, someone brings up McVeigh, abortions, etc., as if they've "proven" something. McVeigh was no more representative of Christianity, then the Mafia is of Italians, yet, like eager little puppies, you bring him up every time - funny, but sad, too.
Check back after one of your Islamofacist heroes detonates a nuclear device somewhere and kills millions, or releases some biological agent that does the same - will you still be chirping about McVeigh, then??? See the difference, or should I connect more dots for you???
let's see, how many people were murdered by Christian terrorists last week? zero!
JJA, and so mainstream Muslims say the 911 hijackers no more represented islam than the guy working the concession stand in Orlando Represents Disney. As for "islamofascist" heroes, I've already explained quite clearly that I do no subscribe to any religion. Nor do I think you even understand what fascism is, especially since you use it in the context of a religion.
Good points Mateo,that tells me the sunnies are the terroritsts not the shias.
Well said JJ
from an interview regarding Tmothy Mcveigh with the reporters who interviewed him and wrote a book about him
Why do people keep insisting that McVeigh was an evangelical Christian when it has been shown time after time that he was an agnostic? Are you guys trying to "prove" something about Evangelicals? Regarding the abortion clinic bombers and shooters, those people are from serious fringe groups-not at all mainstream. NO ONE in mainstream evangelical circles supports the bombing of abortion clinics or the shooting of doctors-if any of you were the least informed you would know that. Most evangelicals do not support abortion and they may wish for defunding of clinics-they may even be quite upset about abortion-but that is quite different from bombing and killing people. I don't think it takes a genius to see the difference.
how could you be "anti-jihad" and be an extremist? that's like saying anti-extremist.
By bombing buildings and massacring 77 teenagers.
What he did was psychopathic and irrational. Brevik was a long wolf who enjoyed killing people. They come along every so often and inflict a lot of damage, like McVeigh more than a decade ago. Brevik represents no greater movement other than his own diseased self-importance. Of course the left is desperately and shamelessly trying to make him the poster child for everyone who resists Islamic aggression and supremacism, but it doesn't fit.
edit: make that "a LONE wolf."
I liked long wolf just as well.
Adam,
WTF are you talking about? The left are the only ones that have actually done anything about islamic aggression. Bush failed for years to capture or kill OBL, and Obama took him out. Al queda is crippled now, Bush was happy to let them continue as they were, as he said, he just didn't think about it that much.
VA-dem, I'm not talking about democrat/republican stuff, nor am I talking about Bush-Obama stuff. Besides, if you are imagining that I am a fan of G.W. Bush you are sorely mistaken. And you will be blown away by the fact that I voted for Obama in the last election. There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many assumptions you make in your facile "WTF" riposte.
jihadists are extremists by definition, thus being "anti-jihadist" does not mean you are an extremist, it means you are rational. Being anti jihadist does not necessarily mean that you hate muslims, only that you are agaisnt those muslims who happen to want to wipe you out.
One last thing on this subject. In my research on the Koran, here is what I was able to find about the author of these teachings:
Muhammad: also know as the Messenger, the
Apostle and the Prophet
Muhammad was born in Mecca in the year 570 CE. Forty years
later, 610 CE, while meditating in a nearby cave, he had a vision: The Night of
Power. Muhammad later determined he was visited by the angel Gabriel who brought
a message from the one God, Allah. The Night of Power is Muhammad’s first
recitation and it is recorded in the Qur’an as the 96th surah. For the next 22
years, Muhammad, the Prophet, the Messenger, the Apostle, revealed Allah’s word
as relayed to him by Gabriel. His followers wrote down or memorized his
recitations. Twenty years after Muhammad’s death, the third caliph (successor to
the Prophet) compiled the recitations into 114 small booklets which became
chapters or surahs of the book know as the Qur’an. The surahs were arranged
according to length, longest first, shortest last.
All you are proving is that this stuff is written in the Qua'ran, you have no proved that a majority of Muslims actually follow these passages. We only ever hear about the Arabs that commit violent acts because of just that. Why would a new organization report about normal everyday Muslims? Those stories have no bite to them and would produce no views.
It says in the Bible not to judge lest ye be judged and also not to judge lest you be without sin. There are many other passages about not divorcing and loving everyone unconditionally as your fellow man that many Christians do not follow.
You cannot stereotype an entire race of people because of:
1. A few words in a book that may or may not be followed depending on the personal level of faith of that individual
2. A handful, in relation to the World's population of Arabs and Muslims, of bad apples that constantly talk and do commit terrorism in a faux-religious motive.
There are two reasons why non-fanatical Muslims do not speak out. First is that this kind of stuff has been going on for ages and they have learned that there are always going to be those that are delusional and that follow a religious text as if God commanded them himself to do those commandments. The second reason is that many countries have been, in the past and present, controlled by these terrorist organizations both from behind the scenes and blatantly in the public eye. Talking out against them would be like signing your own death certificate.
There is no way to rid religion of the delusional fanatics. Well that is not entirely true; higher levels of education, exposure to more then one religion, abolishing that religion, and a long course of time with any of those will effectively stamp out most fanatics, but not all of them.
9/11 was committed not by Muslims but by Islamists; Islamists are the fanatical sect of Islam much like the Evangelicals are the fanatical sect of Christianity. Fanatical sects take their religious texts as seriously as if they were actually real and they had to follow them to the letter in order to get into Heaven. Normal religious followers do what they are supposed to do, follow the parts of the religion that are personally pleasing to them and leaving the other crap where it belongs. Religion is not law, it does not have to be followed the way someone else says it has to and the only ones that follow a religion word for word are the fanatics.
The reason Islamists seem like a huge group is because Muslims/Arabs account for over 7% of the World's population. In truth the Islamists to Muslims ratio is about the same as the Christians to Evangelicals ratio. Maybe that value has fluctuated a bit over the past decade with America invading Afghanistan and Iraq but Islamists are still far out numbered by Muslims.
The real problem are the tribal disputes, not the religion itself. Tribal prejudices go back a long way and the tribes do not seem like they want to forgive their grudges. This is the reason why Muslim on Muslim, or rather Arab on Arab, violence is so high; the religion is not the underlying cause but it may be a catalyst.
To be a Muslim....you must follow all the teachings of the Prophet.....all of them. You can not cherry pick and form another denomination. The Sunni and The @!$%#es squabble over whom should have followed as leader after Mohamed.....they agree that all Muslims must follow the words from the Prophet.
The words of the Prophet are not my own...but his. You would have to ask another Muslim how they can justify the call to convert or kill unbelievers.
Oh, and there are over 1 Billion people that call themselves Muslim [Encyclopedia of Britannica]and follow the Koran teachings.
I know that, hence the 7% population comment. 7% of 7 billion is 1 billion. They also say that to be a Christian you have to follow all of Jesus' teachings. Religion is not black and white to most people, it is a massive gray area where they exercise the religious doctrines that are not otherwise prohibited by law.
Muslims cannot commit honour killings in the USA freely because it is against the law to kill someone. You cannot abuse your children, you cannot segregate. In order for Sharia law to come into effect in the USA we would need Supreme Court justices that would strike down these laws; that would mean at least 4 religious extremists. It is never going to happen, or at least not for a very long time.
"Breivik acted alone but it was the 'counter-Jihadist' ideology that inspired him and gave him the reasoning to carry out these atrocious attacks."
Here, I'll fix that sentence.
"The hijackers acted alone but it was Islamic theology that inspired them and gave them the reasoning to carry out these atrocious attacks."
Fixed.
Yeah but the problem is that people are taking the hijackers personal twisted views about their religion and applying it cart blanch to all Muslims instead of to Islamists only. What they are doing is similar to holding the West-Borough Baptist Church as the typical Christian follower.
Uh, no. Two glaring differences:
1) The Westboro Church has about 50 members, most of which are from the same inbred, ignorant clan in Topika KS. Contrast that with the MILLIONS of Muslims who openly or quietly support the violence that Islamic radicals commit all across the world today.
2) The Westboro wackos, although vile and reprehensible in so many ways, ARE NOT KILLING PEOPLE. Whereas, as everyone knows by now, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE are murdered each year by Islamic militants who have no line they will not cross, including the slaughter of schoolchildren, to advance their supremacist agenda.
Of course MSNBC takes the side of jihadists because they share a common enemy-The United States.
Grow up, Doug.
I read no side being taken but reporting on a new report published in Britain.
If you hate Newsvine so much, why read it? Go back to the unbiased reporting of Murdock and and his editorial control over Fox News.
I found it to take sides. The words chosen, the way it was written. Pay closer attention.
I am the only one who knows that the Islamic fanatics are so......fanatic because they have had little contact with the non-Islamic world except when fighting for there land(USSR/USA) their oil(EVERYONE) or are trying to kill them for being Islamic(anti-Islamic groups)
What would you do in their situation.
radical muslim fail.
No actually i am a born and raised christian who tries to look at the world form a non-biased view point.
so i say again what would do think there situation?
what would you do in America's position ?
to perfectly honest i don't know. although i know i wouldn't support another attack against a religion that we do not agree with(Nazi much?)
I think they are fanatic because of the book.....have you read the Koran...I have and it does not look kindly on anyone not a Muslim......in fact it boils down to convert or die.
Islam attacked moron.
really? Islam attack first? You know what started the fanatic group that caused 9 1 1? they were formed to protect the people of Afghanistan from the USSR. then we cut them loss after supporting them and THEN attacked after we got what we wanted. Free war on the USSR and a stop to their getting oil i really wonder why they hate us so much??
your just hateful fools goodbye
What would you do in their situation...............die
Sounds like not enough of our fellow Americans posting tonight learned the lesson from the massacre in Norway...
It is a pity that what Andre Breivik did is what is rallying support against Islamic extremism and lack of integration and respect for Western society (they CHOSE to live in) by Muslims in Europe.
The push back against extremism should not come from another extremist. You only get MORE extremism and no peace. And innocent people get hurt on both sides.
Unfortunately when the Government and voices of reason are too slow, cowardly, politically expedient to address real concerns in society. And the lack of integration by certain sectors of the Muslim community, their anti-Semitism, their treatment of women, their desire for Western prosperity without respect for the freedoms, responsibilities and rights that make that prosperity possible, resulting in an inability to live peacefully and become Europeans... are REAL issues.
It should not have taken extreme reactions and hateful rhetoric to point that out. And now that it has gone down this road, these issues cannot be addressed without the person being labelled an extremist.
So your saying you are saying the killings of 77 people is labeled extremist and not really extremist?
What? Nope. I am not saying that.
You make a lot of sense sunshine girl.
It feels like the Islamic religion is being used as a scapegoat for religious groups to go on a religious rampage. Reality is that religion in general has it's own moral rules and laws no matter what it is. Religion inspires hate in different forms and levels. Islam does it in a more blunt manner and is easy to target but it's completely unfair for any of these groups to try and just think that Islam is the evil they need to get rid off. These stupid groups who are anti-Islamic only show how screwed up religion can get in general. They are no better then the Islamic extremists.
@ hhs94, you've fallen for the ole' moral equivalence propaganda that leftist western elites are pushing. Anders Brevik gave them a golden opportunity and they're going to play it for all it's worth.
Joe McCarthy would be proud of this effort to tie Brevik -- one psychopathic lone wolf -- around the necks of everyone who is fighting by peaceful means against the advancing fascism of Islam. Why they defend and abet the most regressive, intolerant, misogynistic, and violent force on planet earth today -- Islam -- is almost incomprehesible. It's shameful.
I am far more threatened by evangelical Christian attempts to curtail my freedom from their religion than I am by Muslim attempts to do the same. The former are much more likely to get their way. To be anti-Islamic in America is a far less defensible position than being anti-Christian.
Only because you're lucky enough to live in America in the first place.
Perhaps his defense will emulate the alarming US stance of Preemptive Strike.
Just when we thought we were running short on violent kooks and racists these guys come out. Great just what we nee, more insane, illogical hate looking for a cause to attach itself too.
Well unlike Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and obama I have the moral courage to stand up and say to any who may appear to be of my group. that this is wrong. I oppose anyone using Christ's name, my race or ancestry and my nationality or heritage to propagate hate and unjustly assault or cause harm to anyone.
Amen to that
Why is it racist for Europeans to want to keep their culture, identity, etc, but not racist to forbid them all to be able to worship in the same way they had been for centuries because they were kind enough to allow so many people of other countries and cultures to come in? A new, big, head strong group of people with very definite opinions move into another region in droves. First step is to get rid of the existing religion- to be "fair to everyone." Then to be replaced by what? This has to be the easiest take over, invasion in over 2000 years, with only words like "tolerance" "multiculturalism" and "racists" as weapons. Allow it all and if you try to stick up for yourself and not be passive, you will be labeled the forbidden words. Browbeaten into submission.
When did Muslims start converting Christian Europeans by force?! How did I miss that? It must have been around the time gays started forcing hetero men to marry each other.
Read all about the Ottoman Empire's assault on Europe and you find such forced conversions (and much worse) in abundance.
Probably because you want to.
Good. It's about damn time.
Wow! I am a middle-class hard working white collar professional for a major American corporation. I am raising a family. I am an active contributor to make my community a better place. I give generously, not only locally but globally, to help the poor and those in dire need. I pay my taxes. But, damn! Never mind all that! I am an Evangelical Christian and that makes me a terrorist.
Be a veteran like myself and you will find yourself at the top of the list.
I'm a veteran also. I've killed them abroad and I can not wait until we can kill them on American soil. Each time I see a rag head I have to remind them that allah and mohamed are a bit**.
madcitizen, you're playing right into the leftist narrative that Anders Brevik represents a large number of people who think and act just like Islamic terrorists. Don't be stupid.
Do you want your children growing up under sharia? Do you want your daughters to be killed for honor killings? I am not playing into a leftist or right , whatever the hell any of that means, but I am standing against an enemy that I fought against and have killed. I am just waiting for the battle to begin here on our soil that I can pick up arms again.
madcitizen, I am also a military veteran but I disagree with you. I do not want to fight Muslims here or anywhere. I am not a supporter of Islam. I do not care for their religion at all, but I am not afraid of Muslims. They have a right to their beliefs as much as the Christians and Jews do. Vilifying Muslims is not the answer. War is not the right solution either. Why not give peace and tolerance a chance?
@ madcitizen:
No, i don't, and I won't. I understand your anger and your fear, but as I said before, you are playing right into the hands of those who will highlight your comments and say "See, the "anti-jihadists" are just as bad as the Islamic terrorists. They can't wait to start killing and committing genocide when the chance comes." That's how you play into their hands.
Standing up to Islamic aggression and intimidation is a good thing. Making racist and 'eager to start killing' type comments on a public board is quite another. Again, you play right into the leftist elitist narrative that there is no difference between Islamic terrorists and those who fight against them. NONE.
I, for one, appreciate your service for this country (assuming that you are being truthful about that). But you are not being helpful in this fight to those of us who are on the front lines 24/7 in the fight for hearts and minds against Islamic Supremacism. In fact, comments like your's actually make things worse for us.
Yo Adam, whilst I agree with and voted for your post (#25.6) I really think it’s funny how you insist in turning the issue of Islamic extremism into a left vs right debate as it’s not (I personally know plenty of “lefties” that detest Islamic extremism) as both sides agree that it’s bad, they do however tend to disagree with solutions.
madcitizen: Slow down there, cowboy.
Keep off those 5 hour energy drinks, get some grains and fruit, and catch some sleep. As long as this rock rotates, nuts will come out of the woodwork. Better focus on the world you can control than the nuts you can't.
Be at peace, my friend.
Will,
Yes, as an Evangelical, you are a bad person. No question. The Evangelical doctrine of hate, intolerance and a biblical justification of selfishness is keeping this country from progressing to a level where we can all live as equals.
Hey Los:
But they sure don't speak out much about it with the exception of a few like the late Christopher Hitchens, Bruce Bawer, Bill Maher,Pat Condell and ?? And its arguable whether even those four could be described as "leftists." Are there more? Very few speak out, probably because they fear being lumped in with right-wing conservatives. To be fair, there are also some right-wing conservatives who either don't care or don't bother speaking out against political and military Islam, but by far the most complacancy -- or outright collaboration -- seems to me to be on the left, where virtually any criticism of Islamic violence or supremacy is countered by knee-jerk bromides about how "Christianity is just as bad." I can't speak for England but that seems to be the situation here stateside. That's my experience anyway. Whenever I encounter someone new in an argument over these topics there is almost always an automatic assumption that I am some kind of "Islamophobic" hypocritical Christian for revealing unpleasant and downright nasty truths about Islam. One of the sacred cows is definitely "Christianity is just as bad." But as this atheist points out time and time again, it's just not true. So yes, the most resistance, at least here on msnbc, to criticism of Islam comes from the left, a fact that both appalls and astonishes me given how the left like to think of themselves as enlightened progressives. Nothing in the world is less progressive than Islam, so why make excuses and run interference for it? (not directing @ you Los).
“Nothing in the world is less progressive than Islam, so why make excuses and run interference for it? (not directing @ you Los).”
Well Adam from my experience (as in from what I’ve seen of US politics and to a lesser extent UK politics) both sides (so left and right) seem to get (some of) their identity from disagreeing with the other, it’s like if the right say “Islam is bad” then the left cannot say “yeah you’re right” as then they would no longer be the “opposition party” which personally I do think is a bit childish but there you go.
As for the Christianity comparisons well I can understand them too (and I’m an agnostic who thinks all religions are just basic political systems) after all Christianity has some truly horrific rules in it that do parallel Islam’s and if there is one principal everybody seems to value these days it’s fairness and thus if we are to be critical of one religion and bring up its dirty secrets, rules and history then it’s only fair to bring up the other.
PS I do apologise if anything here isn’t clear or doesn’t make sense as I have been awake for 24 hours and am pretty tired right now :)
Adam to Mad: Shhhhh!
Adam, you are trying to convince people that if a Muslim lives next door you are in danger of spontaneous conversion against your will. Either you are weak of mind, or you are lying to cover up your fear of people who are different than you. FEAR. You are a coward.
Los,
Fairness is fine, I'm all for it to in this and other matters, but the reason I focus on Islam's dark side is because thousands of people are killed over it each and every year across the world. I don't do it for the fun of it. If thousands of people were being murdered each year by Christians motivated by the Bible and Christ's teachings then I would be focused there too, with just as much condemnation. They don't, so i don't.
Where did you get that from Jason?
Typical brain-dead smear effort. Yawn.
Adam44
“If thousands of people were being murdered each year by Christians motivated by the Bible and Christ's teachings then I would be focused there too, with just as much condemnation. They don't, so i don't.”
There is that Adam but I think this is where we differ as I think that Islam is not the source of motivation but the source of vindication for these acts (as in pointing to the “word of god” to give them legitimacy) and in that respect I do think all faiths practice that. Now as for the true sources :) of motivation? Well That’s the hard part as I’d bet it’s a combination of factors
Yes, that's where we differ Los, I agree.