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Subscribe to RSSThe Obama administration is trying to contain the fallout from newly-published photos showing U.S. soldiers posing with the body parts of Taliban suicide bombers. MSNBC military analyst Jack Jacobs weighs in.
News commentary
Those who have been in combat will testify to the catastrophic insults to the body that modern weapons can inflict. War is horrifying, and nothing can prepare the novice for the destruction that it can cause. Nor do we easily get used to the images of it, and they stay with us forever.
Recently released by the Los Angeles Times, the grisly photos of soldiers posing with the remains of dead Taliban fighters have raised a variety of observations: From the notion that they are similar to the harmless pranks of adolescents to the assessment that their publication will be a catastrophe for the American mission in Afghanistan.
As with most extremes, neither is the case. We should also reject the argument that this incident, the burning of Korans and the deliberate murder of women and children, such as those allegedly carried out by Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, are all the same.
No excuses
Here are the facts: The pictures are about two years old and were of Taliban fighters killed when a bomb they were putting into position detonated prematurely. The photos were sent to the Times by someone who said he wanted to highlight the threat to our troops caused by the poor leadership of the unit, a part of the 82nd Airborne Division.
But, although the Times suggested that the concern was merely inadequate physical security rather than a climate of generally weak discipline, it is the latter issue that is the most striking.
When the Times notified the Defense Department that it had the photos, the Pentagon asked the paper not to publish them, arguing that they would incite the enemy to attack Americans. The Times responded that it had an obligation to publish them, citing their readers' right to be informed.
Pictures taken two years ago showing American soldiers posing with the severed legs of a dead Taliban suicide bomber are being condemned by the Pentagon. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
In my view, both the Defense Department and the newspaper are full of baloney: The Taliban don't need any encouragement to attack us, and a big part of the motivation of the Los Angeles Times is to sell newspapers.
More nuanced has been comment from some quarters that the troops, who were mugging for the camera, were letting off the steam that accumulates under the duress of war; that their actions were in response to having lost buddies to the mindless ferocity of the Taliban.
While these are understandable reasons, they are not excuses, of course, and the paratroopers' actions were publicly decried by government officials. Many cited long-standing rules, promulgated after similarly embarrassing episodes, stating that such antics are impermissible.
Lack of leadership
But the truth is that you can't merely legislate against dumb behavior. In and out of combat, good units get that way because they are well led.
Poor leadership can create poor units in a very short period of time, particularly under stress. While good leadership can bring any organization through the most horrendous circumstances with only physical scars.
The leadership of the brigade in the 82nd that is at the center of this photo controversy was evidently already known as weak by the chain-of-command above it. There are many military organizations that have endured more harrowing circumstances with less damage to discipline.
It is not easy being a leader in uniform, but there is a responsibility attached to it that is found nowhere else in society. Military service is a sacrifice and those who volunteer for it are our patriots. But service is no game, and because so much is at stake, standards of deportment must be extremely high.
We are frequently reminded of it, but it bears repeating nonetheless: a commander is responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in his unit, and it is he who sets the standards in his organization. Accepting less than professional behavior will minimize the service and sacrifice of those who have taken seriously their responsibilities as the guardians of our freedom.
Col. Jack Jacobs was awarded the Medal of Honor for “conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty” in the battle he describes above. His first assignment in the Army, in 1966-1967, was in Company C, 2nd Battalion (Airborne) 505th Infantry of the 82nd Airborne Division, the same division as the troops in this incident.
Click here to read the complete Medal of Honor citation.
He is the author of a memoir: “If Not Now, When? Duty and Sacrifice in America’s Time of Need”
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Plahhhhheeeeees.
we have lack of leadership in the white house, in the congress, in the senate, in the army, New Orleans police during Katrina, GSA crazy stuff, now secret service in Columbia; we are breeding morons, not leaders whatever happened to our Patton's, MacArthur's, Eisenhower's, Marshall's, Truman"s, I guess that America is gone forever, a mediocre nation .
Patton, MacArthur and the other were allowed to go out to fiight & win a war no matter what it took. Today it is about cowering to others to continue to fill the pockets of oil mongral & war lords. Why else does our so called great leader keep apologizing to the enemies of US.
Funny you mentioned two generals that were both relieved of command for "doing what it took."
Leadership always starts at the top and trickles down. Yes, we have a lack of leadership. So, what else is new?
Our Eisenhowers, Pattons, etc. were in intense wars far from television, much less leading soldiers into battle who would even think of exposing atrocities or having the means to do so. War is ugly. Soldiers are taught to kill, and we expect them to shoot someone in the face and then pick them up and give them a tender burial. War is hate. We have never been in wars the likes of what we are in now, nor with the scrutiny we have now. We turn people into haters -- it's the nature of war. I think what went on in Abu Gareb was possibly the most horrifying because these deeds were carried out by soldiers and contractors who were not in harm's way. When you leave the mall and put on a uniform and go to a country where the enemy could be the person standing next to you, perhaps you'll understand the terror of being in a country where you can't even speak the language, much less have hope of winning a war. We need to get out and get out now, and then we need to never instigate another war, and that includes Iran. Our bullying days are over. The days when any one of us suffered with anything other than a huge national debt and a poor economy because we were at war are also over. When we have to fight, hand to hand, or send our own kids, then we can pontificate about who caused what.
Richard in FL I agree with your simple to the point post. Thanks from another Floridian.
The US was never going to lose to Japan as the overwhelming majority of Japan's army was bogged down in China for 10 years. The Russians fought 80% of Germany's entire military. The US never fought full strength German divisions in WW2 only entering the ground war a mere 11 months before the war ended.
Saxon,you should reread your history books. MacArthur was NOT allowed to go out and win the war no matter what it took. MacArthur was allways a loose cannon,but he was an amazing general and a great leader. That was recognized and he was given a lot of lattitude becuase of it.
Back in the 1920s for instance there is a well know incident. A group of armed vVeterans marched on the White House demanding their pensions early. The army was sent to disperse them,and it went down without any serious problems. (it didnt turn into a blood bath) The officer in charge of the Army troops however exceeded his authority,went down to the nearby Hoverville and burned it to the ground. The President was unhappy to say the least. That officer that exceeded his authority was no other than Douglas MacArthur. Ordinarily that would have been the end of his career,but clearly,his skills were recognized and he went on to be one of the greatest generals of WWII.
However,he allways had problems understanding that the civilians are in charge of the army. In Korea he disagreed with the President and took his case to the media. His career ended there,as it rightly should have. The military MUST be subservient to the elected political leadership and there can be no place for gross insubordination.
By individuals "doing not quite enough". One prolonged a war and the other left us, still today, in an ongoing unresolved war. Much like the mentality of the leadership today.
Hey DOU44: You forgot to include that the new Japanese government criminally forbids the teaching of WW2 unless the teaching present Japan as the victim of US aggression. The poor sufferings of the Imperial Japanese troops when they had to confine and take care of POWs should also be vividly recalled. Oh and the poor poor Japanese who had no stomach for war, the Nazis had 4 complete nukes and long range fighters en route to Japan for deployment against the US West coast, which were intercepted and then presumably used against the poor poort Japanese with no stomach for war, to end the mass atrocities of their nation.
Russia conquered the Nazis? Don't think so bud. Read up. the story is a tad more involved.
One really has to wonder how and who is leaking these things. Seems mighty convenient to give the Afghanistans an excuse to the blood thirsty people they are anyway. What we have is two things:
1. Lack of leadership that comes on down the line
2. Trickle down Corruption in this administration.
Everything is the White House fault these days. Wow, when are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions. These guys are adults. They know right from wrong. The ones who are leaders of these men have been in the military long before Obama was in office. So how is it his fault? That is the problem with the USA. Not owning up to responsibility. Just like the newspaper that gave the Pentagon the BS that they have an obligation to the readers. What a load of arse dung. They are trying to sell papers at the expense of US and UN lives. They know publishing something like that will cause even more lives to be lost because it will anger the locals even though it was a suicide bomber and the picture is two years old. The military man who sent that in need to be hung by his nuts and kicked out of the military because he just placed a bounty on the ones in the picture which will also mean more deaths in their platoon. The media should of let this one go just to keep the body count down. I have a couple of relatives over there and would like them and everyone else to come home safe. There need to be some changes in the law the way media put information out that can cause an overall carnage to our troops.
The past twenty years the politicians have gutted the best officers from the ranks of the military, because they preferred more politically correct brass. Gen Fogleman was the best USAF Commander that I served under, but he crossed President Clinton and he was gone far to soon.
I agree with the premise of this article but believe the failures of leadership go well above the unit command level. One of my many disappointments with the past two Presidential administrations has been the failure to hold high level officials accountable for inexcusable f**k ups like Abu Ghraib and the pathetic government response to the Deepwater Horizon disaster !!
wake up2840 - Agree w/you 110%. I worked for "Uncle Ron" at 7AF in Korea back in the early 90s before he became AMC boss & CSAF. He had the b@lls to go with the brass! Need more of the same these days in both the military AND civilian worlds.
Lack of leadership may be true, but just places the blame on someone else! How about - lack of judgment, lack of morals? It's obvious. They need to individually take responsibility. Leadership may be scarce but these are adults. Stop blaming others.
Didn't Obama blame Bush about the same thing during the 2008 campaign? There was no leadership and if elected he would bring hope & change? Karma is a mother.
It is not lack of leadership - it is the 10 years of participating in pointless wars that lead nowhere taking it's toll on soldiers. OUT NOW! Stop feeding the monster of military industrial complex! Russia spends on defense less than 5% of what we spend, and still nobody f-cks with them. US defense budget should be slashed by at least 70%.
Max: "Russia spends on defense less than 5% of what we spend, and still nobody f-cks with them. US defense budget should be slashed by at least 70%."
THANK YOU! You are a voice of reason crying out into the wilderness. If we did as you suggested, imagine the good we could do with that money. Research and development. Education. Medical coverage. Cures for diseases...we could evolve and create (instead of devolving and destructing). Thank you Max!
You do realize that nations like Russia and China don't release their actual military expenditures....
The US hides military spending in other ways such as "contractors" and the CIA. Russia and China do not maintain 200 overseas bases in others' countries.
ABC:
Yes, the Military are adults; 18 year olds are legally Adults; they use their best judgment. Most are 18-22 years old---what do you expect?
They look to their Leaders in their Unit for Leadership---They are not adults who are 30-40-50 or more years old. They need guidance in decision making. The Soldiers are there to kill the enemy---Courage and Bravety.
It is true. The Blame of what goes on in a Military Unit is their Generals own misjudgement, while the Soldiers fight, they play. Some are not that involved in the details, nor do they care..
There are Generals, and there are extremely excellent Generals. This 12 year War in Afghanistan is so old, all the Generals are either fired, or weary. It is time to get out of this War, let Karzai the Taliban, enjoy his opiates, and no Leadership---Corruption at it's highest level.
No Negotiations with the Taliban. Our Military has been scre----------ed! Karzai, the Loyal Backstabber to the US who have given over 4,000 Military lives to save his a--------------s---
He ordered no more Night Raids---a Manipulator---He thinks is the Commander in Chief over our own US Military---just like Calderon telling the US what to do---
The US should STOP being so nice----all the apologies, do not matter---the Koran says to Kill, and the Terrorists follow this book to a "T"-- (Taliban)
Good post, Marchant. You are right. My son was a Marine who got out 2 yrs ago (almost) and did 2 tours in Iraq (infantry). Under bushco and the stupid policies and politics he used, low-level commissioned officers first started quitting. The shortage of Captains became acute. At major it was less severe. Lts were almost adequate. Then came the shortage of Sergeants at all levels. As many older ones retired and the younger ones decided that 20 yrs with that mess was a joke, the sgt position became filled with unqualified ass-kissers and men who weren't really ready yet simply because of attrition. So at the very top, the military may be led okay, Colonels and Generals, but beyond that, the only place they are well staffed in numbers and quality is boots, privates, and lieutenants- the entry levels. And yes, this started under bushco. Remember Abu Ghraib? The only people that were punished were low-level people who took the fall for leadership. Remember the general who decided to spin the death of Pat Tillman? bush's first loyalty was to politics, not truth, not his soldiers. He found a general would would lie to his soldiers' families for him. I don't remember his name...McAllister maybe? But he was a real POS. But people at the bottom are not so stupid that they don't know when they're being played. And when you disrespect them, this is what happens- people quit. The very first act of George bush was an executive order stopping the program of informing servicemen- and women- who were leaving from being informed of all of the benefits they were entitled to. He figured-correctly- that if the vets didn't know their rights, they wouldn't use them and he's save money. The problem with that, as I see it, is that we owe this to them. This isn't an area where you should be trying to save money with our military. If he really wanted to save money maybe he shouldn't have started 2 wars. But this is where the roots have their problem and maybe-MAYBE Obama has not yet fixed it. And I say maybe because running an organization as big as the military is like trying to stop or start a train or oil tanker. The average boot signs up for 4 years and isn't considered sgt material until about 6 years in, sometimes longer. That means that if you have a severe problem with sgt today and do all the right things to address that problem with new recruits, you'll be about 4-6 years away from having boots on the ground to fix that problem.So all the Obama haters can pile on ,but again , there is a time lag between cause and effect. Yes, this is probably mostly bush. Maybe Obama has fixed it, maybe not. It will take time to tell, though truth be known, most in the military, or at least the Marines really dislike Obama ( with some cause, I regret to say).
BTW...as I stated, my son has been out almost 2 yrs and he is still finding out benefits he is entitled to that he didn't know. This is unacceptable.
Yeah right, we shouldn't blame others? Give me a break. This administration is the champion of blaming anyone and everyone else for everything. Time the spread of stupidty and lack of judgement that has come down from the top and the know not how to do their job appointees. Time they all took blame for the mess they have made of our economy, our country and the pride and moral of our military and secret service.
ErinsFire42
Yes we could spread the wealth so more people can live without working and the rest of the world could laugh at us even more. What we need is to stop hand holding the rest of the world. If they want to kill each other, let them. Unless they attack one of our true allies and there aren't many, or attack us, let them have at each other until they wipe themselves out and save our money for more important things. The world population wouldn't suffer from being downsized. Of course it would mean we'd have to stop immigration from the places that grow our enemies. That would be an excellant idea anyway. It seems unbelievably stupid to keep importing potential terrorists. If you come from a country that supports terrorists you have no business here.
Yeah, President Obama blames Bush for something every five minutes... the buck stops somewhere else in this administration.
Oh I definitely think they should take responsibility for their actions. Maybe the better word is take credit! I hope everyone of the soldiers in the pics take "responsibility" for their actions and keep right on smiling when they do it.
I like your attitude. When people deal with death on a daily bases aquires what others see a warped sense of humor to survive what others will never understand. I don't think the pictures should have released nor did the person giving them so the press do so out of concern, good propaganda for the enemy.
DKJ, the person who released the pictures to the press was a member of that unit. He did the right thing by exposing a lack of leadership in that unit. Taking the pictures is the propaganda for the enemy.
The "soldier" who released the photos to the media did the WRONG thing. If he/she (I can use "she" here, because this person might have received them on the FOB), was truly concerned about a "lack of leadership", then the first course of action (COA) would be to post them to the chain of command. Another COA is to go to the Chaplain. A third is to make them available to the Inspector General. Fourth, Army Community Services has counselors who may have assisted in seeing this issue handled properly (these are people independent of the chain of command and generally civilians). Last, every Soldier has a Congressman/Congresswoman. While the chain of command appreciates a "heads up" that a Soldier is contacting a member of Congress, it is a Soldier's right to do so at any time without notification. This person dropped a bomb on the 82nd and the United States Army. He/she may claim that it was done "for a higher purpose", but it smacks of a disgruntled employee to me. The only thing that will come of this will be a misperception that this is common throughout the Army, a group of lower enlisted troops will get fried and the threat of "blue on green" violence will increase. Trust me, the IG or a Congressmember would have rectified this post haste. The Army is not the "good 'ol boys' club" that it may have once been. Giving the photos to the newspaper was an act intented to get maximum publicity, and the act was intended to do maximum damage to the 82nd.
My homeboy came back home from Vietnam with pictures of dead Vietcong tied upside down to bamboo shoots-his platoon was posing next to the corpses. NObody complained then; why now?
The pictures don't cause me any heart burn as I was in VN and have seen the result of a fire fight first hand. The biggest issue with the pics of our troops with dead Taliban or any other dead of the enemy is that it provides fuel for the lunatic fringe on that side of the world to justify and recruit more of their ilk and can put our guys in further danger. The VN pictures were circulated generally among the troops in country or their friends after they got home but now days anything can be put up on the internet for the world to view and can be used as propaganda and justification to create more havoc for our troops.
You're wrong. People DID complain re: Vietnam atrocities. I know--I was there. They complained then. And they should complain now.
2 (or 2 million) wrongs NEVER = 1 right
Google "My Lai".
We didn't have the enternet back then or a free military, ah remember the draft. My uncle was a body & part collector when he was drafted because he refused to carry a weapon & kill others. What is a collector, him & his team would go out in a field or a town/villiage to pick up bodies & body parts after a conflict. Then they would try to match the parts up before sending them home. He did this during the Korean wars & a year in nam. Talk about nightmeres. His sense of humor which other seemed morbid to many is what got through & our lost soldiers home for burial. Besides the SB killers have no respect for themselve or the people the take out.
Because it's an Islamic thing and it's frightening when they threaten us. Not.
Colored-Guy, I was in VN and definitely took action against persons doing that. I was in Black Ops, in and out of VN over a three-year period and would never have considered it, even if I could have shown my face something Black Ops personnel never did or talked about. I considered it desecration of the dead and still do. Two of my brothers were in direct combat much of the time, a third flew supplies in and bodies and wounded out. My father, his third war, was NCOIC of Air Rescue at Cam Ranh in 1972, flew a lot of missions. I talked to my last living relative of that war, a brother, and he said though he considered using ears, pix and so on he didn't inasmuch as he was taught that personal discipline meant not doing something that he wouldn't have done to him.
That being said, the pix were over two years old. If the guy thought it was wrong, he should have brought it to someone's attention then, not now.
This is probably just me, but I always feel shy and respectful of Medal Of Honor recipients.
Mario, don't feel shy.They are some of the most humble people you'll ever meet.
Pictures with body parts of suicide bombers who would have liked to have killed these soldiers? You're boring me!
Oh hell no people....I'll tell you exactly why this is happening.
We've had our servicemembers in combat for over a decade. One tour is enough to wreck people for life. I still have a hard time coping with what I experienced over there, let alone people on multiple tours.
If we as a country are not willing to stomach the fact that bad and disturbing stuff happens when we send young men and women to kill other young men and women, then we as a country are not willing to go to war. This whole idea of "chivalry in battle" and "honorable warfare" is something that was conjured for the sake of publicity. War is disgusting, awful, violent and traumatizing. It's not paintball, people...it's people killing each other. That tends to blurr the lines of acceptable behavior. Every Soldier from every nation experiences that...
The fast majority of our servicemen and women uphold the absolute highest standards of conduct in warfare. But until you've experienced how dehumanizing it is to see another human drop to the ground from a bullet you sent downrange, don't judge them.
They're in hell so you don't have to be, cut them some slack.
Good post Tim! I am the mother of an Iraq vet and wife of a Viet Nam vet. I can only imagine how war has hurt them as talking about it is not something they do. But I do know how much pain there is and have witnessed countless tears.
I agree, even with exceptional leadership and exceptional personnel there has to be limit to the amount of this carnage any one person can actually handle without becoming numb to all of it permanently. I understand that leadership of a unit like this is a "no fail" mission, but some blame has to be put on the real leadership that have had these boys engaged in two countries for over 10 years, with no clear mission, no exit strategy, and fighting and training with people that don't want them there and that they cannot trust.
Through the situational powers, you can't turn people into animals and then reproach them to behave like animals. the blame is not so much on the troops as it is on suicide-bombing sponsoring Taliban, Karzai, al qaeda and our government. Police mission my arse. If our soldiers were cops they'd walk around with a baton and a whistle working traffic.
Tim: "They're in hell so you don't have to be, cut them some slack."
It's not a matter of cutting anyone slack. It's a matter of not being in hell. It's up to each of us to create "heaven" on earth.
No one should cut any slack on that.
Tim, this is happening because a lack of leadership at the unit level. It is up to the leaders at that level to keep the soldiers from doing this sort of thing. This is what happens when leaders want to be buddies with their troops and be the "good guy." I served two tours in Iraq, and suffered the same hardships, and saw the same crap these soldiers have in Afghanistan. I would never consider taking "trophy photos" and I would've slammed any of my troops who did it.
Can I just say this...40 million people died in WW2.....20 million were civilians...WAR happens....civilians die...who cares??? DONT YOU DARE BLAME THE SOLDIERS! ITS YOUR GODDAMNED WAR AMERICA!!! REVEL IN THE BLOOD!! or bring everyone home and end this crap!
Soldiers / warriors have been taking "trophies" since humankind first began killing each other in war. Does anybody really believe human nature has changed all that much in 10,000 years not matter how much we like to kid ourselves that this noble experiment in democracy within which we live somehow makes us different?!
We're the same collection of stumbling demented xenophobic tribal primates we've always been...pick up any ancient history book or turn on tonight's 6 o'clock news...it's all right there for the viewing.
I have to agree. Soldiers have been sent constantly for lengthy deployments which is horrible. On the other hand the Army promotes anyone (NCO) that can memorize a study guide and impress a SGM. Officers are even worse. For awhile there was such a shortage of qualified Captains that they promoted every LT. Made some pretty bad commanders. Belive me I know, I retired from the Army in 2005, Warrant Officer. The military as a whole was/is hard pressed to get people in that were willing to deploy many times and give up any chance of a good family life. So they promoted what they could and stuck with even the bad leaders. Soldiers deserve better than what they have been dealt. No one has the right to trash the hard working, protecting your rights, soldiers, sailors, airmen, or marines. Give them good leadership and they will serve with honor.
I don't quite understand. We give our soldiers guns and teach them to shoot and how to kill. We send them to foreign places that don't "play war" by our rules. Then we get upset when our soldiers don't act like gentlemen in this killing game. I don't condone their actions but we just haven't seen or done anything remotely like what they do.
I have and I condemn their actions. It does not matter if our enemy plays by the same rules. We are a highly trained, highly disciplined military, they are not.
War is ugly and ugly things happen in war. When you have young men surrounded by death, why would anyone think they wouldn't be affected? One has to de-humanize the enemy in some way to survive. Why do you think the enemy has been called names like gook, nip, kraut? To make the soldiers/Marines feel like they were not killing a human being? Just my amateur psychological take. Don't these things happen on both sides? Isn't the military representative of all walks of life? The good, the bad and the ugly.
Enma3, well said.
These things happen in war. They always have and always will and they are always detrimental to good discipline and military order. They are indications of a commander who is not in control of his troops. The individual soldiers have individual responsibility but a commander has a higher responsibility both to his country and to his soldiers to lead them well. If we as a country are going to hold ourselves up as the "good guys" then our soldiers must hold to a higher standard of conduct than our adversaries, not sink to their level.
We cannot expect to send young men and women into battle and have them act with taste and decorum at all times. War is killing people and destroying things. It is inconceivably ugly, un-human, bloody and gross. War smells bad, looks awful, brings out the worst parts of our cultures, causes unbelievably bad behaviors and bends people into unrecognizable shapes both physically and mentally.
Posing with pieces of a corpse is a really bad judgment, but not anywhere near as bad as the decisions made by the leaders who put those soldiers in a place where people routinely blow themselves into their component parts.
Anyone who has been in war is certainly hesitant or simply refuses to discuss the reality of combat and violent death. "Kill" is the least descriptive word in the English language. It utterly fails to convey the sensory overload of witnessing violent and unrelenting death or the effect has on those who see it. These soldiers acted in a tasteless and inhumane manner - it is an unfortunate but completely understandable reaction to the job. There is no way to deal with the circumstances of war without some sort of coping mechanism. They just shouldn't have taken pictures.
i don't even think it was bad judgement......especially when compared to the fact that the dead militants they are pictured with were ready to kill them, us or other innocent people. We all need to get over it. Pictures don't exist from the "real" wars of the past (wwI/wwII) probably because they didnt all carry digital cameras or cell phones with them....but make no mistake....the behavior was the same and has to be. The media and lawmakers are the problem here.
You are all correct. That's why we should NOT go to War. Think outside the box. We can do it.
No Dan, the soldiers and their leaders are the problem. It is the media's job to report news, and this is newsworthy.
Take a look at Human history... as long as we have been killing each other...we have painted, scratched, drawn, etched ,recorded or taken pictures of the dead. its who we are. deal with it.
Mathew Brady took such pictures while under U.S. Govt Commission.
This pic is so bull@!$%# photo-shop maybe!! What soldier will take off their Kevlar, and not even hold their weapon in hand to take a photo with a suicide bomber come on really!! The other soldier to the left doesn't even look like he has body armor on. We gonna believe everything we see what about the Afghan Ministry that had suicide vests inside there? I think the Afghan Govt has their head so far up! Get some!!
The only lack I see is the lack of understanding by legislators and the American people. These pictures are of men who kill people. Our men kill people that would kill us. They have to want it and do it well or they will be killed and ultimately we would. So lay off people. If you don't like the photo, don't look at it....but what you're seeing is what it takes to own freedom.
Everything in war boils down to leadership - good or bad. It is up to the Commander to make sure his troops are not undisciplined rogues who disregard orders without impunity. I have spent a lifetime studying military history, and it never ceases to amaze me often the difference is made by leaders setting the example and instilling in their men the necessary discipline to do what has to be done and to serve with Honor, Courage and Commitment. I've been to war as well and personally seen it. There simply is no substitute for leadership. So sing it out, Jack!
So the liberals bitch when it is our troops that take pictures of dead combatants but its okay for CNN, MSNBC, ABC, etc. to show pictures of dead American soldiers being hung from bridges or drug through the streets.
I really don't think that disgust over seeing dead, mutilated bodies is a political reaction. Conservatives and liberals agree that the effect of war is gruesome and dismal. You're wrong. Again.
trainee-3379153 - It was never and issue with MSSLIME showing dead Marines being drug through the street of Mogadishu when Bill was in office.
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Tim and Enma, thank you both your post were right on. Tim I am a VN vet and remember what that did to our men and wemen. I have a brother who came back really messed up and he never got over it. Thank you again for your well worded post. USN Ret
This is a very balanced review of the situation, actually, and pinpoints two major problems -- news media that are only interested in selling news media without any consideration of all factors or historical precedents. And Soldiers that lack moral compass and the smarts not to do anything that the media can twist into the appearance of "atrocity" or plain stupid behavior. The US military is lacking in true combat leadership for a couple of reasons, the lesser of them being that true combat leaders only come to the fore in actual combat. For historical examples, look at the list of Marine combat field officers in WWII who went on to become Commandant of the Corps (That's "core" Mr. Obama). The second reason is more pervasive and totally unaddressed by the media -- our excrement that passes for an educational system these days. Our psycho-babble namby pamby "Johnny and Jane can't fail" system has been taken over by the clueless and spineless and produces the worthless in mass quantities. If you want to create war leaders, you actually have to teach the brutal realities of warfare to those who can benefit from the information. But schools are scared to death of "history" because it, in their stupid and uninformed opinion, "glorifies" warfare. Apparently it neve occurs to these dense cow pies that human history, as revealed not only in the great religious tomes of the world, but in countless historical documents shows a continous stream of warfare and slaughter based on the shallowest of human religious and social precepts imaginable. One would think if one wanted to grow out of that tendency, one ought to at least take a close look at why it keeps happening and what effect it has on humanity. Imagine the world if the past 10,000 years of national treasure had been spent on educating our kids, building hospitals and schools and infrasturcture, great religous centers, parks and recreation and things like that....instead we have stupid people who want to bury their head in the sand and then wonder where the equally stupid leaders we get come from.
The real damage here is that these pictures and arguments about discipline and judgment and things that excuse bad judgment show the rest of the world that we have become a nation of thoughtless, self-serving children.
Exactly. We are throwing away our moral authority. For all this talk of patriotism,people are forgetting one simple thing. The US is different than any other country on earth. We dont need blind patriotism. We dont need to love our country simply becuase its "our side". We should love and defend our country becuase we are not only better than our enemies but the best among our allies. Becuase America should be special. We should be the good guys. We didnt defeat Hitler by becoming genocidal fascists and doing it better than the Nazis. We defeated them by being the best Americans we could be. We didnt defeat the communists by becoming better communists than the Russians. Now people talk about how we have to be worthless wastes of human beings,more ruthless and evil than the terrorists. They talk about how we should desicrate the bodies of our enemies becuase they do it to us.
Wake up and get a clue. If we are no longer the "good guys",the terrorists have already won. Its not allways convenient to do the right thing,but its allways the right choice.
Like soldiers posing with the bodies of killed enemies is something new. You can find pictures on line from the civil war where this kind of behavior was practiced. The Taliban and Al-quaida want to bitch about this while they post on the internet videos of their members sawing the heads off of their still living victims. Why are we not hearing from these people that want to take issue with this whining about the conduct of the Taliban and Al-quaida?
Soiders get to see the worst side of life day in and day out. Like the experts say, War is hell. I remember one vet from VN told me stories of collecting and sorting body parts. To say that living and breathing death and dispair 24/7 does not affect someone mentally and physically defies logic. I believe it desensitizes them so things that are shocking and appaling to a normal person has no real affect on someone constantly exposed to these things.
It is not lack of leadership - it is the 10 years of participating in pointless wars that lead nowhere.
I would have nailed those body parts on the bulliten board to show everone on earth the actions of these idiots that have no concern for human life.Paneta and Obama are ass kissing the enemy,they should put an American uniform on,grab a rifle and face the idiots they are apologising to.Maybe they would come home missing a few body parts.Its easy to be a coward when your sitting in an office in Washington,DC.
Bill -
Would you be kind enough to detail your military combat experience - especially any occasions where you personally may have "nailed those body parts on the bulliten (sic) board". You sound like a typical Chicken Hawk - as in, never been there, didn't do that. Have you ever put on an American uniform and grabbed a rifle?
Bill, you might be a savage and are unaware of your mental condition.
Who really cares what happens to dead enemy? If Bush weren't such a piece of @!$%# the world would be a better place. We would not have the current piece of @!$%# obama.
“On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in
the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does.”
- Will Rogers
The whole country is suffering from lack of leadership. Maybe we should elect a leader in November.
Maybe even a paranoid furher or a right wing fascist dictator with the heartlessness of Dick Cheney?
People are discovering that, to our shame, we have a problem handling the 2nd Amendment. Now, its becoming clear we apparently have a problem handling the 1st Amendment with responsibility. Anybody see a pattern here?
We fail consistently at fulfilling our Constitutional responsibility, and then play the blame game, missing the point entirely. I wish it were just stupidity, but a good deal of it is greed, and the rest is hubris. Doesn't bode well for generations X and Y - and there probably won't be a Z. I'd say we should grow up, but it's far too late for that. Gonna hurt like hell when we hit bottom.