Dont worry. Romney is a business-man. He'll show the Pakistanis how to turn a profit on their new missiles. Obama will just apologize for not giving the Pakistanis missile tech in the first place.

This is NOT a Whitehouse issue dude. You can blame Obama all you like - while you are ducking radioactive fallout and what comes next. You could have also blamed Bush or any President you choose to beat up upon - it's all the same and we're JUST as dead.

Why is the Obama administration continuing to give military and economic aid to Pakistan. If they have money to spend on developing nuclear capable missiles, they obviously do not need US aid. The US should not be providing military aid to any nation that is not a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and that includes Israel. Any US military aid must be made contingent on signing on to this treaty!!! In addition, Pakistan has been anything but a reliable ally of late. They have blocked the shipment of military supplies for the war in Afghanistan from proceeding through Pakistan. So long as they are refusing to cooperate with our efforts in the region, they should not be receiving any aid at all from the US. If they want aid, let them start acting like a real ally, otherwise they should be cut off completely.

JS in SD "Why is the Obama administration continuing to give military and economic aid to Pakistan"

perhaps this has something to do with it, and the other article online about US and Phillipine war games.

in case no one noticed, over the past 20 years as our jobs have left the US for China, China's wealth and power has grown...and that is scary as hell.

clearly India and Pakistan have noticed, even if idiot Americans havent

"marked the latest escalation of an arms race in Asia, where the assertiveness and rising military power of China has rattled the region and prompted a forceful response from the Obama administration" - from this article

our middle class wealth that has left the midwest for china, isnt just going to the rise of the chinese middle class...but also the rise of the chinese military.

they were always huge in size, now they are also huge in arsenal.

Carl and JS,
I am not a Democrat, but I do know, even if you don't, that Obama had nothing to do with current policies in regard to Pakistan.
Maybe you can answer the question that is obvious in my mind, Who did?
The United States has had an aid relationship with Pakistan for a long time, but the support and money (in excess of $3 Billion per year) to support the war effort started, When?
Answer: 2003. Who was president in 2003? I'm building up a drum role...Who is it? Wait, it's coming...I'm almost there, can you beat me to the punch?

BUSH, you idiot.

As to why we continue to pipe money into a country who obviously bears us ill will? You will need to run that one by the REPUBLICAN controlled House.

Please, do everyone a favor here and pull your dome out of your poop-shoot.

toll fee to Afghanistan, cost of doing business.

What JD in Sd does not understand is that

#1) The AID that pakistan gets is not aid in reality, it is payment for fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan.

also, i would be interested in what the ratio of aid pledged to aid delivered is by nations. There was a report out that only about 1/5th of the aid pledged to Haiti was delivered. All the nations backed away from their initial pledge.

#2) The border has been closed for NATO supplies because the US has refused to apologize for killing 24 soldiers. Apparently, Obama was all set to issue a formal apology, until they realized his rating was low and an apology would not help his re-election campaign.

Way to go Obama, make us proud.

The situation is a huge amount more complex than the posters seem to realize. This is what happens when you get your news in sound-bites off Fox.

India has nukes and long range missiles for exactly two reasons: a) they have had several confrontations with China, and b) during the Cold War the US declared Pakistan a "friend" and India an "enemy." This forced India into the Soviet camp --- which collapsed. Now, India still trades with a weakened Russia, but mostly sees independence as the only way to make its way in the world.

Pakistan has nukes because it started out about half the size of India. The hatred of Muslims for Hindus makes their relatioons with Christians look like courtship. They have fought several wars with India already. But when Bangladesh broke off and declared neutrality, it shrank Pakistan to 1/4 the size of India. They have nukes because India has nukes. India does not have nukes because of Pakistan, however. India could easily defeat Pakistan with conventional forces only.

Pakistan is a very fractured country with many radical groups with very different goals. But the Army secret service, the ISI, pretty much runs the country. Mostly the Paki ISI does this by using the Kashmir issue. Kashmir is a mostly Muslim region that the British gave to Hindu India as punishment for the Hindus kicking them out. It willk never be resolved and will remain an issue forever. The British did this a lot. It is bad enough that it was the Paki ISI who financed, recruited, controlled, and directed the Mumbai terroriost attack (amond scores of others.)

We are cutting back funds to Pakistan. But the situation is that we are really scared that the ISI controls the nuclear weapons and will sell them to terrorists if they need cash or need to unite the Paki people against Israel, the US, or some other "common" enemy, or just wants to stir up trouble.

n.b. You will notice that the Paki and Indian rockets are long-range single-stage solid-fueled missiles. Compare that to the North Korean, shorter-range multi-stage liquid-fueled missile. That is the comparison between a REAL military missile and one that is truly intended to launch a satellite. Liquid-fueled m,ulti-stage missiles have virtually no military application since they cannot be maintained or stored in a "ready" status and take weeks to prepare. Can you imagine the North Koreans ordering us to stand still for the next three weeks while they get their rocket ready?

KA,
Obama was ready to issue the apology until Pakistan decided to skew the story and make it appear to be an intentional act by US forces (who, if you remember, contacted the Pakistani military to see if there were any soldiers in the area). There is still evidence that the 24 Pakistani soldiers who were killed were the ones firing on the US and Afghani soldiers operating in the valley. Obama is still trying to find out if there is any evidence that would change the most obvious likelihood, before he apologizes.

Before you make yourself look like more of a fool, take a few minutes and do a little research.

MIlitary Man,

First of all, Obama was never going to apologize, the White House was going to send John Kerry to Pakistan and apologize. That was until the Pakistani government said that it has to be an official White House apology and not a hush hush meeting where an apology might be slipped in between sips of coffee or tea.

Secondly, i like you would love to hear that it was the Pakistani soldiers who attacked first, but having lived in England for a while, i realize that there are 2 sides to the story. You obviously believe the side that is provided to us here in the US is the accurate one, and i would like to believe that too, but how often has our government been honest and upfront with us? Do you really think Obama, in his re-election year will come out and say they made a mistake? I think not my friend.

The missile's impact point was in the Indian Ocean. The defense official told NBC News that it had "hit a target in the sea."

Wow Pakistan is so happy that the rocket hit it's target..........an OCEAN......talk about giving yourself a big target.

It's way past time the USA supports India and lets India with a stable and democratic government take over the worthless,failed, muslim state of Pakistan. There can never be peace, nor security when a government is controlled by muslims who use thier hate filled, ignorant religious culture to govern. Let India take over this corrupt, illiterate, backward country, get the US out of there!

@ Chris-749391

Agreed regarding Pakistan/India relationship and Pakistan/ISI and US intelligence fears.

We are all paying for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers.

If Reagan didn't secretly support Pakistan and Afghanistan to fight the Russians in the 1980's, we probably wouldn't have had to worry about a Taliban or Osama Bin Laden! Though I'm sure there would have been other radicals to take their places and the US would likely still be a terrorist target-favorite...but we probably could have avoided the events of 9/11.

Had the US and Allies not supported the Shah of Iran's tyrannical reign post-WWII, we likely wouldn't have the Ayatollah's and psycho regime that controls Iran today. They probably would have still had a revolution to overthrow the Shah, but they would probably have shifted to something more closely akin to Dubai or Abu Dhabi. And without that revolution, the US would have not supported Saddam Husein to fight the Iranians, which would have likely saved us a world of headaches from then on after.

The next political blowups I'm waiting for are when the Saudi Royal Pigs are overthrown and Saudi Arabia turns into another extremist-state that hates the US like Iran.

As far as Israel. Israel is a sticking point for a lot of Arab and Muslim nations, but I think that US involvement in Middle Eastern affairs over oil interests has been far more destructive than simply selling weapons and sending support to Israel. It's more like icing on the cake for their hatred of the US than it is the driving force that mobilizes their nut-job-extremists to attack us.

I think it's probably going to take at least 100 years from today before things start to calm down. Maybe 50 years if the US and other developed nations can get off of oil dependence and heavily cut into the financial support that a lot of these extremists use to fund their missions.

Thoughts?

Proving Indian Defense Planners right, within 6 days Pakistan also tested their missile test. So this missile was already with Pakistan, all these days. How else could they have made it within days of Indian test?. Earlier also with in days of Indian nuke test, Pakistan also tested their nukes. So testing or not testing, mean nothing.

Already Pakistan has demonstrated that they have missiles that can reach almost whole of India. So there is nothing more to fear now. India knows whole of it is under Chinese missiles aimed from China/Pakistan. What can we do about China supplying missiles to Pak. Pakistan might be having presently 10000km missiles supplied by China, which requires no further testing.

As far as Indians are concerned our immediate threats will be addressed by a 5000km missile. Going on beyond this range is never in Indian plans. We can’t waste money thinking about enemies in future.

Anyway our shorter range missiles are enough with respect to Pakistan, and Agni5 is for China Specific threat. Pak present test is as per the orders from China not in response to Agni5.

India has realized every weapon that China possesses is also with Pakistan. As China has tested all these many times, there is no need for Pakistan to test it. Whereas India has to test it to make sure of its capabilities.

This is why Indian missile test sometimes fail and in later tests proven successful. India perfects its technology through trials, whereas Pakistan has access to already tested weapons. Although Chinese missile also fail as part of secret trials & we all know why it won’t be reported.

So India possessing Nuke/ICBM makes no difference as our neighbors always do have it no matter what. Realizing this now Indian defense plan is modified to counter simultaneous attack from China & Pakistan. Anyway Pakistan is a proxy of China and as such Chinese controlled territory.

So if Newdelhi is hit, simultaneous counter attack should reach Islamabad & Beijing. We all know in Pakistan other than some Terrorist training camps not much exist. Whereas, in case of China, it is not such.

Of course we all know what it will happen in the end of this madness, but it is not a choice but a compulsion because of a limitless expansionist regime with Veto Power in our neighborhood.

And the Eskimos will sit back and enjoy the show

The term "eskimos" is considered insulting and demeaning and was a term failed missionaries used to describe the Inuit.

But yet there are a lot of natives in Alaska that still call themselves Eskimos.

Chris I hope you're being sarcastic or something.

I can almost agree with you that NOW would be a great time for them to make war on one another - before they get more. Trouble is that they already have enough to cause serious if not fatal reactions throughout the rest of the world. ONE is enough.

I fear that once done, it will not be a spectator sport anymore and will suck in virtually all the world's players. NOBODY can afford to launch a nuke at ANYBODY.

@gooddoctor,

India has around 100 nukes and Pakistan has a handful more. Israel has around 200 nukes and would probably not be able to resist the temptation to get involved. That should be more than enough to insure about three generations of 4-armed American babies with six eyes.

Charles - Get some education before uttering nonsense and spreading ignorance!

Before muslim rulers the Hindu Rajas and Maharajahs were at each other's throats. The Muslim rulers restored the order and peace. The Mughal emperors were the most beloved of all. They were powerful administrators, chiefs of Army, and providers of justice.

Check Wikipedia Links;

Moghul Emperors Jehagir and Shah Jehan were most famous for their golden "chain of justice." The chain was set up as a link between the people and the Emperor himself. Standing outside the castle of Agra with sixty bells, anyone was capable of pulling the chain and having a personal hearing from the Emperor himself.

Also

India enjoyed much cultural and economic progress as well as religious harmony. The Mughals also forged a strategic alliance with several Hindu Rajput kingdoms. .....The reign of Shah Jahan, the fifth emperor, was the golden age of Mughal architecture. He erected many splendid monuments, the most famous of which is the legendary Taj Mahal at Agra, as well as Pearl Mosque, the Red Fort, Jama Masjid (Mosque) and Lahore Fort.

Please study world history and history of South West and Central Asia before making any uninformed comments. Thanks

If only THAT simple.

Well we've learned one thing about governments...when you're as tight fisted as NK and don't let your youth go to American Universities to get educated in Physics...you don't make successful rockets. The Pakistani kids in our Universities however....

Guy, the stuff is on the Internet. They don't need our universities to build WMDs'. They don't need very much at all it turns out.

gooddoc, I heartliy doubt that one can find blueprints for a successful two stage ICBM on the internet. The internet is a dark and scary place Ill give you that...but ICBM's?

Have YOU looked? You'd be shocked my man. Dig deep enough, perhaps enlist a little judicious hacking and all will be revealed. You'd think Martin Marietta's secrets would be secure? Honeywell? DON'T bet on it. All is for sale to the highest bidder. You likely can name NOTHING that has not been hacked, maybe not publicly but hacked just the same. Information is the coin and people trade in this info EVERY day.

Computer security is my business and I'm damn good at it but freely admit that there are others out there that can make me look like a chump fast. I can pretend they don't exist but they do. Trust me. ALL IS FOR SALE. Just a matter of money.

lol I dont think Ill google "ICBM blueprints" on my company computer...

Very wise as you'd attract homegrown goons by your very action. To actually obtain this type of information "safely" is somewhat of an art practiced successfully by only the very best hacks and agents. Sacrificial lambs are commonplace. IF for an instant you think the NSA would not be all over you like a tent is craziness. But it's all a lot like closing the barn door AFTER the cows got out. THEY are already out. You're just being polite closing the door.

IF you want it and IF you can afford it and IF you know how to contact the "right" people, ANYTHING is available. ANYTHING.

Gooddoc,
I have to agree that North Korea COULD be able to locate plans for an ICBM on line...but if I were anyone interested in looking here in the US, I might expect Homeland Security knocking on my door in a very short amount of time.

@Military,

We built the first two a-bombs in the 1940's ---- 70 years ago. They were of two types --- a "gun" type and an "implosion" type. The gun type was more reliable and certain to fire while the implosion type used far less fissile material. But both were extremely heavy. Not because the actual bomb parts were heavy but because of all the shielding to keep the bomb from killing those who assembled it or dropped it. They were very small weapons.

Any high school kid with access to fissile material could build a gun type. These days the implosion type is onbly slightly harded. The key components that made it so difficult in 1942 are now readily available in any camera shop. Building a bomb is no real trick. The trick is getting the fissile material. And, on top of that anyone with virtual no education at all can build a "dirty" bomb that can have just as devastating results by strapping any fissile material to conventional explosives. No real knowledge or technique involvbed at all.

Both Iran and Noprth Korea are working on "advanced" nukes that are smaller and lighter and use less fissile material and use various methods to increase the bomb's yield. The reason for this is to make them storagle and more easily transported and used. But the dirty little secret of nukes is that both Iran and North Korea could probably assemble a 1940's style weapon that they could launch on an existing missile by simply omitting the shielding and putting a "hot" bomb on an existing missile using "suicide" workers to do it. The North Koreans could force this by holding families hostage and the Iranians would use religious enticements.

I am very familiar with the process for building a nuclear device and the ease in acquiring the plans. It is a well known fact that the plans for production and assembly of a Nuke are available at a large number of on-line resources, however, getting the Plutonium is not.

The plans for an ICBM are not so easy to come by, though far from impossible. We have seen that the North Koreans have NOT mastered the design. So far, they have only been able to launch over Japan successfully, which is enough to start serious issues in the region.

Pakistan, however, is not quite as incompitent. It is probably safe to say that Iran, if they are able to acquire Plutonium, would be able to produce a rocket design that would easily threaten Europe and friendly countries in Asia.

Russia has had small "man-pack" Nukes available since the early 1970s. I read something not too long ago that there are a number of these devices that are not accounted for since the fall of the Iron Certain. The situation is far more unstable than most of us realize.

I agree with your view on religious zeolots. Muslims seem to have much less aversion to collateral damage than anyone else seems to. It is surprising to me that there are so many here in the US who stood silent when Cat Stevens (known by something else now) issue a fatwa on Salman Rushdi over "Satanic Verses". Excellent example for a "peaceful" religion...

Military Man: And you'd be right though I doubt that they'd "knock" first! You know that they watch these news posts as well? I'm sure that you do. The database technology these black hats use is, in a word, astounding. And you've likely read of the new NSA data center they are erecting? EVERY word spoken, typed, faxed, and perhaps thought about will be stored forever, always available to cross index any sort of perceived threat. THIS is how the NSA "protects" us. As the stomach turns.

The very principles you likely fought for (and survived) have been tossed out the window. It's a new world and this is how some of our home grown braniacs believe it needs to be "controlled". I don't know about you but I do NOT like to be controlled in any way. It smacks of oppression doesn't it?

Welcome to that new world. I am reminded of our local county sheriffs favorite phrase: "If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about." This lets him do whatever he likes, whenever he likes and it's all OK. Zoom out and this is exactly the NSA's theory as well and don't think for an instant that it isn't happening right now, today. H ell, that may be them knocking on my door right now ....

gooddoc, just because blueprints for something can be found on the Internet doesn't mean it actually will work. There are all sorts of "terrorist cookbooks" and whatnot out there but if you actually tried to make the stuff they describe as "explosive" or "poison" you'll just find yourself with a bowl of goo that won't do more than ruin your dishwasher when you try to clean it. Sure, there's plenty of bad stuff, even dangerous stuff, but the valid plans for a nuke capable missile? Not so much. Oh, and even if there was, who could afford to build it?

rmeza,
The cold-war is alive and well. The players have changed a bit but the game is still the same.

Pakistani's are actually pretty smart. They're no Afghanistan.

theenktaynk, you got it 100 % right, I think.

Alpha Omega

SFC,
According to the intelligence reports we've been seeing since Bin Laden's death, the Pakistan Intellegence service is already in bed with the Taliban. Who do you think was protecting Bin Laden?
You have probably heard about the tensions between the ruling government (who is not on very steady ground) and the Intellgence service. The US needs to take a serious look at the situation in Pakistan and what they are using US aid money on.

@Military,

The good news in that is that the Paki ISI (and most of the Paki people) are not nearly so much anti-US or anti-Christian as they are anti-India and anti-Hindu. The ISI emphasizes the Kashmir issue above all other issues as a unifying focus. The Pakis declared a national holiday to celebrate the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

Good goat man - this is NOT a Dem or Rep issue. This is death at the hands of madmen. HOW can you possibly turn this into some political issue? Beyond me.

I agree with the pressing need to colonize elsewhere but I fear that we're a day late and a dollar short. And even if by some miracle we should find success at reaching somewhere else, the madness would follow soon enough and man's petty "mine is bigger than yours" philosophy will come along too and with it the same problems we have here right now.

Colonizing Mars would turn that pristine planet into that glow-in-the-dark cinder. We who display our displeasure lead the way with the cinder.

Perhaps because it IS a big deal. Too many madmen have these things now and as far as I can tell, it's a matter of time. Most have forgotten Hiroshima. As memory fades, so does the respect that blast should inspire. Some Mullah will think Allah is going to protect him because his book says so and we'll all be in a kettle of feces.

Perhaps the good doctor is referring to all mad men - east-west-north-south.

Indeed I am. Sorry but I have less and less faith in my fellow man to behave responsibly and with intelligence. Evidence would prove contrary. I have had some dealings with the Muslim persuasion in my business (computer security) and fear them greatly. Not their intelligence or creativity - I fear their money and their ruthlessness. They have a LOT of both.

Their holy book tells them that they can do no wrong and ALL is forgiven in the fight for right - THEIR right and to them, there is NO other. They believe this stuff heart and soul and will hear no other arguments. It is this steadfast adherence to words printed on a page written by men that is truly terrifying to me. They completely believe that only they are right. So should they decide that nuking somebody is OK, well then Allah is behind them 100% and no harm shall befall THEM. Idiots.

With due respect Good Doctor, do we all not believe we are RIGHT? It is often we who lose sight of that. Generality is always a dangerous predicament.

I stand corrected. You are correct. Most people of all persuasions think that they are right. I missed it. But "right" is a term that is a bit broad. For instance, I doubt that we in the USA would think we're "right" to toss a nuke on France because we don't like their politics. But some countries certainly would feel that it is "right" to do so and for what I feel are oddball reasons - like words on a printed page written by men.

I personally would NEVER trust such words. I suspect the Bible and yet am a staunch believer in G od. I have a theory that's worked for me for most of my life: IF it comes from man, suspect it. IF it comes from G od, it's likely OK. In college when I did drugs, this was my watchword (Pot was OK, LSD was not, Peyote was OK, Speed was not). Later in life, I used the same philosophy about religions. Out of the mouth of ANY man, it's suspect and worthy of at least a second glance if not further study. Question authority.

If it was only THAT simple.

Me too bro. Me too.

Don't wind me up on this. Your (Muslim's) holy book is quite clear on your belief in violence to secure your ends. Virtually ANYTHING is OK to do unto others according to that book. It was not ME that killed your babies or blew up your homes. IF anyone had bothered to ask me, I would have recommended against it. My country does NOT listen to me, certainly far less than YOURS likely listens to you. It's a machine running without a governor - ready to fly apart due to spinning too fast. It's out of control and I don't like it any more than you. Ask me and we'd all get along OR ignore each other effectively enough as to cause no damage to either. But nobody asks me anything and nobody cares a whit what I think or feel.

All I know I know from personal experience. All I suspect comes from vast reading and speculation. All I hope for comes from my G od. These things -I- control to an extent, not my government or leaders. I trust them no more than you. But I don't trust YOUR leaders either.

Though you may be right, good luck with that. Americans are too "Americanized" to effectively do this today. Years ago? Maybe but now? I highly doubt our ability to even get to first base.