Wellllll... we didn't really "help" the Egyptian people. We financed and armed the regime of their corrupt and oppressive dictator. So it's a bit unrealistic to expect gratitude from the Egyptian people for the money we paid to keep them oppressed by their former tyrant. Ditto Iran, where we helped the Shah of Iran (an even worse dictatorial tyrant) stay in power for decades during which he robbed and oppressed the shyte out of his people, so probably unrealistic to expect gratitude from the Iranian people for all of our "help" :D

Far as islamic democracy, well, Turkey and Bangladesh are both democracies, and last I checked they were kinda muslim. Anyhow, point of democracy is that people choose their government and political leaders, and bear the consequences if they choose folishly, so let them at it...

Turkey is more than 90% Islamic and are a secular democracy as well as a geopolitical power. Egypt is the most influential country in the Arab world. Their media, music, movies, tv shows, and even sports are broadcast throughout the Arabic speaking world. The Egyptian dialect is the most widely used and understood of the Arabic dialects. Their population as a whole is one of, if not the best educated and progressive of the entire region. I don't get why so many people are so skeptical of Egypt adopting a democracy. They just had a revolution, for God sake. A regime that lasted for decades and a pattern of leadership that has lasted thousands of years has fallen, and what, we should expect them to be a Western democracy after just over a year? When we overthrew the British, were we an awesome democracy after a year? Heck no, it took years and years to get everything sorted. Egypt is going to have growing pains. They are going to have big changes. They will elect people we aren't happy with. Are we always happy with the people we elect? Come on! They are soon to be the newest democracy in the world. Give them some time, encourage them from the sidelines. They'll get it sorted in time, but to expect some great, appeasing result so soon... let's be realistic.

Hmmm, the lesser of 2 evils? So much for a revolution

Wow. A pizzing match among fanatical Islamofascist Jihadists vying for Murabak's spot. Who'd have guessed THAT in a million years?

Say good bye to your old boss, meet your new boss.

Some things never change, do they?

Yeah, you can vote for the muslim brotherhood, or the muslim brotherhood. In short another country we fuc_ed.

Can't believe the negativity from some of the posters here. Egypt is stretching its proverbial muscles for the first time in a Democratic way and all some have to say is an Eor response... "It won't work, might as well just give up. Lets just go home and put the chains back on, saves time." All i can say to those few in here is "WOW"

Khalid-2395974

Wellllll... we didn't really "help" the Egyptian people. We financed and armed the regime of their corrupt and oppressive dictator. So it's a bit unrealistic to expect gratitude from the Egyptian people for the money we paid to keep them oppressed by their former tyrant. Ditto Iran, where we helped the Shah of Iran (an even worse dictatorial tyrant) stay in power for decades during which he robbed and oppressed the shyte out of his people, so probably unrealistic to expect gratitude from the Iranian people for all of our "help" :D

Far as islamic democracy, well, Turkey and Bangladesh are both democracies, and last I checked they were kinda muslim. Anyhow, point of democracy is that people choose their government and political leaders, and bear the consequences if they choose folishly, so let them at it...

I hope they do a better job that we have at modeling a democracy. Now, we're in that phase where government sleeps with industry, plutocracy, and we're screwed. Good luck to Egypt--seriously. Maybe they won't develop a military that is so large that it bankrupts their nation.

In a democracy if the majority want Islamic law...its still a democracy, chosen by the majority. The old school thought that you will do as America says is over. You better get use to it. Freedom is exactly that....free to choose your path. Its not free to do as I say.

First, realize that we have seen televised debates for decades, which shows how far behind Egypt really is.

I believe it was Pew that had a recent poll done in Egypt and Turkey asking about American support. IT HAS NEVER BEEN LOWER. Support in Turkey was a stunning 10 percent, while in Egypt it was 20 percent. Once again this media nonsense that under Obama the US is now seen in a better light is absolutely not true. Things are worse.

Won't be democracy or real freedom as long they have their Islamic Constitution. Separation of Mosque and State and you can start the taste of freedom. Any Christian Candidate ?, I bet no I don't thing their Constitution allowed it, and many of them are already killed by Muslim fanatics friends of the Muslim Brotherhood. Who is the moderator and what kind of question are they allowed to ask, what are the qualifications they are looking for, experience or who is the most religious radical, who is in favor of the Jihad, who want Sharia Law. Good luck fellas.

Nothing will much change in that hell hole. Males will continue to dominate females, making them forever third class, and their religion will never be separated from their government. Another loser Islamic state, nothing new. Just wait till their tourism starts to fade away, already happening quite quickly. Nothing like staying in a "third world" situation.

To all of you who replied. Your missing my point. First off I pointed out
that both men espouse Islamist attitudes and convictions so there isn't going to
be what we consider an open form of government in Egypt going forward. Secondly
the monies spent in the past on governments that were vastly less oppressive
to their peoples in both Iran and Egypt were and continue to be less oppressive
than what exists today in either place. With Islam their cannot be a secular
government .Turkey and Bangladesh both have secular governments and aren't lead
by Islamists. But both are being threatened by Islamist movements that seek to
end their secularism. Islamists are equal to any other sort of extremist groups
that seek to subvert human socialization for religious dictatorship that has
been and continues to be the death knell for the majority of humans killed in
the name of fanaticism and religious partisanship.The only way people are free
is when their governors are free of religious dogma and bigotry.

The common theme in the comments here is that "it won't be what we want". Why should it be? It is their country let them decide what it should be.

Oregonjoker.

I agree you are a joker. You know nothing of Islam. But what's worse is the Writer's ridiculous comment that Moussa won the debate hands down. I was at the Egyptian Consulate in the Emirates today, and expatriot Egyptians queuing there, to vote for the first time in their country's history obviously had a completely different opinion, they were overwhelmingly voting AboulFotouh. Too bad neither the reporting nor the commenting standards on this historic event and its impact are receiving an honest and objective assessment in this story. The reason is clear, a xenophobic and pre-opinionated approach towards Islam and Muslims will not bring forth any mutual understanding. I assure you, just as one of the comments here described muslim society as a hellhole with men dominating women, their views of western society are no better. They see the acceptance of prostitution; porn; and the extent of human trafficking etc.... and wonder, what is the West raving about? where is human diginty for women or for common people!

a xenophobic and pre-opinionated approach towards Islam and Muslims will not bring forth any mutual understanding.

Teaching intolerance by Eman Al Nafjan <I spend two semesters in Riyadh for my training as a teacher------abot religion the treatment of woman, the influence of the west, overthe time textbooks have become instruments of the countries religious conservatives, replete with calls to jihad and denunciation of non-muslims-----------

Moses1.3 quote "They see the acceptance of prostitution; porn; and the extent of human trafficking etc.... and wonder, what is the West raving about? where is human dignity for women or for common people!"

Hey Moses, the "human dignity of women" is based on the fact that American women are FREE from a religion that accepts stoning to death based on males decisions on what is right for "their females". Get off your pathetic high horse pal. We don't sell our woman to the highest bidder like you do, we accept a woman's rights to decide how and what they do that is based on their decisions not some village elder, and if that means being a porn star, then that's just fine. Better than hanging out in your city square being pulled apart like an animal, aka Lara Logan, which shows just how pathetic your male vision of equality is, and how women are demeaned and degraded in public within your largest cities. You get 3 billion a year from this country because you can't even feed yourselves without our help. Maybe because you keep half your population as third class citizens with no equality in sight. We "accept" others rights in this country because we are a free people, and that means freedom "from religion" as much as it does "of religion". You can cower 5 times a day in a demeaning way, but don't expect everyone to share your vision of reality my friend, because to me your religion has blinded you to "acceptance" of anything that makes you uncomfortable. That's called freedom of thought, not allowed where you live obviously, and your track record with females tells the real story, and it isn't pretty, it is based on dominance not equality.

Islamists aren't all fanatical or even conservative; they are merely people who wish to infuse religion into the political system, for better or worse (e.g., Israel, Iran, Texas..). In our system, we swear on the Bible, have "God" on our money and in our pledge of allegiance. Some want to bring back prayer in public schools, and to keep sex education out. These aren't radical views, although some may seem them as regressive. Some Islamists are zealots, and others merely regressive (from a liberal point of view).

JCB , you are right

This is an artlicle from Mona Eltahawy an Egyptian woman.

She wrote " When more than 90 % of ever married woman in Egypt -- including my mother and sisters -- have had their genitals cut in the name of modesty, then surely we must all blaspheme......What all it means is that when it comes to the status of woman in Middle East , it's is not better that you think , it is much worse even after these revolutions, all is more or less considered well with the world , as long the woman are covered-up, anchored to their home, denied the simply movility of getting into their own cars, frced to get permission from men to travel, and unable to marry without a male guardian's blessing or divorce either "

Oskar, great clip. your right on. I'm so sick of the Islam excuse makers. They are into barbaric domination of females, and saying otherwise does not make it "not so".

hey, sometimes i like to be dominated, but only when I choose. LOL

Brenda,

Your statement would get you stoned to death in any country with an Islamic
based constitution. You get to be flip here, dead there, which would you choose
to live under our government or the Sharia based despotic nations who adopt
barbarism in the name of a supposed religion?

Jorge ,

your heads up your proverbial arse.

Moses,

Your understanding of my knowledge of Islam is based in your bias which is
obvious. Your the one who's off base concerning Islam. It's not a religion of
tolerance nor is it truly a religion as we in the West know religion. It's an
all encompassing method of governance based on one mans fanatical revenge
desires and has very little in common with any sort of Western religion except
maybe for Mormonism. Both were bastardizations of the Judeo/ Christian religions
. Both were given in secret to one man only and no one ever saw what they did
yet we take their word for what would be a drunken fantasy if one were to try
and make such claims nowadays.

"where is human dignity for women or for common people!" where is the dignity
for non-Muslims? where is the dignity for all of the Bahia that Islamists killed
in Iran over the last 30 some years? Come on man quit apologizing for what is a
horrible system designed to benefit one family and it's followers and defecate
on all others.

By the way I studied Theology in college ( USF, Harvard) and have traveled
extensively in the so-called Muslim world and believe me they are not what the
liberal press in the West makes them out to be. The average citizen of Iran ,
Pakistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libia , etc. would just as soon see you eviscerated in
public as bat an eye. Islam is the only world religion that codifies killing all
whom abstain from their views . It also calls for cheating and abusing those
whom are different from their view point. Show Me another religion that calls
for such barbarism.

Umm... Origonjoker, wow, got something against women? Can't live with them, can't shoot them right? The joke was about someones post on the public being dominated by the ruling government. I was just making a little pun, don't get your panties in a bunch.

If the majority of muslims in a muslim country CHOOSE to implement islamic laws, it is still a democracy. How hypocritical of some here to criticize what other people in other countries choose to do. How many people here would vote for a presidential candidate who is not christian? Why do the birthers continue to insist that our majority-elected President is a muslim? Why couldn't we leave religion out of our presidential debate. Do you think only christian fanatics are democratic?

Turkey is a secular country with one of the fast growing economies in the world. They are a regional power and have been flexing their muscle for some time. They are also a valuable ally and have the second largest army in NATO behind only us. I think your a litttle blinded by your racism.......Oh and Hamas was fairly elected. Democracy was stolen by the Israelis, USA, and PA who after they pushed for elections didn't like the results and chose not to recognize the elected government.

I agree with you entirely on the Hamas situation. We have the naive view that if the world gets democracy they will be just like us and will support the US position. When that doesn't happen we throw a hissy fit. Look at the state of democracy in the US. We get more polarized and nasty between our own parties. Which one of "us" do we want these democracies half way around the world to be like?

The Hamas was elected by the majority of people in Palestine despite of all the money we poured in to support Abbas (our puppet, like Mubarak). We've been throwing hissy fits at the Palestinians and Cubans because how dare they not do what we told them to.

The same people advocating American economical isolationism are also the same people who criticize all non-christian based governments for not "democratic".

Democracy without respect for human rights is a sham. In this country, for example, I have no doubt that at one time had it been put to a vote the Mormon faith would have been abolished. Read its history if you doubt this. That is immaterial, as in this country you can practice your religion even if others disapprove; even if they believe your wrong beliefs will send you to hell. Hamas is devoted to the destruction of Israel and everything un-Islamic; even if they win with a majority it is not a triumph for democratic values, but rather tbe old line about pure democracy being a discussion between three wolves and two sheep about what would be good for supper.

Islamists only respect one thing and Democracy isn't on that list.

Joker is saying if you're not christian, you can never have democracy. Ignorance is a disease, too many people choose to use their religion as an excuse to be ignorant; both christians and muslims are alike.

Somehow I doubt one side of voters will laugh an applaud, when their candidate speaks of terrorism and killing....like one side did here when Rick Perry mentioned the death penalty.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7380162n

The problem is they already have an agenda of despotism and corruption and
the new guard isn't any better in fact due to their Islamist connections they
are tantamount to letting the Klan take over our government and how it would
handle minorities and protesters. It happens even in non Muslim countries just
look at Venezuela or Nicaragua. Both are run by fanatics and the people suffer
from the tyranny of the minority , Idealists, whom would sell their own souls to
accomplish their end goals, but never look back to make sure they aren't
becoming what they over threw or even worse.

JG - Get out of Muslim countries?

And here the neocons are telling us we must actually get more involved in these countries and "create" regime changes that are favourable to U.S. policies.

Because - you know,meddling in other countries' internal affairs has worked so well for us before

JG

They do not want to kill Americans. Where do you get that from.

In reality we and Isrielly kill more Muslims (several time more) then thye kill us.

They may be less educated and coservatives like settlers in Israel, but neither Muslim or settlers are stupid.

Godgraviton,

your words are betraying your bias. You mention our kill rate of
Muslims yet you fail to mention that their own kill rate of their fellow
Muslims are thousands to one over what we do to them or have done to them. They
haven't settled their own sectarian issues and are socially about six hundred
years behind the West in modern levels of socialization. In other words they are where we were
before the Renaissance era of Europe. The big difference is they have weapons of
mass destruction that dwarf anything we had back then, and they use them on one another. And as anyone knows a sane person doesn't hand a loaded pistol to a child to play with, unless they
want someone killed or maimed. And yes they do want to kill Americans as all one
needs to do is keep current on the news( in Egypt alone in the last few years look at all of the Westreners killed while touring in their country, no one over here is attacking bus loads of Muslim tourists with automatic weapons ) and one can see it's not the Westerners
that are raising violence to new heights (except for Latin Countries with
Dictators or drug cartels ) Were not going to their nations with the idea of
destroying their infrastructure and killing innocents in the name of our God, as
the Islamists are want to do to us, and average Muslims are compelled to do to us. Nor does the Bible or
Torah or the Lotus Sutras call for deceiving and betraying and
punishing nonbelievers or killing nonbelievers or killing apostates. Islam is
far from being either equatable to other major religions, or being Humanistic or
benign, it's a social system of governance that calls for absolute surrender of
individualism and ego to the cult and personal domination by the cult's temple and those who would
profess to be it's leaders or else one is subject to attack from fellow believers
whom feel they hold the right level of worship and everyone else is worthy only of
dying but not living with a belief that isn't the same as their punishers.

Okay, Mr. Brilliant, if we are NOT leading the way in freedom, then pray tell who/where is? Obviously this country is very imperfect, but one of the best things about it is that we are free to discuss what is imperfect and our ideas for how to change it. You sound like you see yourself as some sort of victim of opression. Most Americans who seem themselves as victims are in fact such -- victims of their own small-mindedness, victims of their own inertia and pointless outrage at how "unfair" it all is.

If you think there is a democracy in what is so called America , think again I am a Canadian living in Egypt these people here will set the standard for democracy in the next few years so US i mean Canadians and American will learn from them .

Yes they will, if Canadians and Americans will adopt the One True Faith and accept its edicts and precepts as being True Democracy and True Freedom. Thankfully for the future of thought, initiative, human rights, and common sense, we shall not be doing so.

But what is has come to mean, at least to a vociferous minority if not universally, is to "submit" to the rulings of what a tiny coterie of men has decided is the true meaning of the Qu'ran, the Haidith, and the other ancient works, just as in much the same way Orthodox Judaism has come to mean accepting the teachings of the rabbis as to the true meaning of the Bible and the Talmud, etc. Hence, to some, "modest dress" means only the burkha, the submission of women to male authority means "female circumcision"/genital mutilation and not driving a motor vehicle, etc. In other words, total submission to OUR PERCEPTION of what it means to submit to the God of Abraham. If everyone leading Islam today were as open-minded as you appear to be, then Islam would not be perceived of as it is, but for the most part they are not. It would be like Christians clinging to the stupid formulations of some medieval pope and claiming them to be the essence of Christianity, which no one does in practice and only a few do anymore even in lip service.

No, that was Bush or havn't you heard yet.

LOL. I get it. Some how Obama single handily caused the Arab Spring is just another delusional statement from the neocon. The will of the people doesn't count if they're not christians like us.

Spielman, what you said is also true here if you just substitute Christian for Islam/Muslim

Yes, but George, while the Christian West has for the most part emerged from its Dark Ages (during which time it was the Muslim world which preserved the knowledge of the ancients, and made the few advances in medicine and mathematics which were made in that time (i.e., "al-gebrah", "the reduction"), the Muslim world has enter its own Dark Age, as it is seriously suggested by the some presumably respected clerics that the only true way to purity is to live in the world of the seventh century, since such times produced the greatest man of all history, the Prophet. As long as such reactionaries are taken seriously and their views regarded by many as part of the mainstream, there can be no true progress, just as there was not any real progress in the West as long as the ideals of the Inquisition were regarded as mainstream.

The only realistic attitude is to wait and see. The roads to a society somewhat like that of Turkey and somewhat like that of Iran are both still open, and we shall see which it is that they follow. No modern country deserved to be ruled over by a sick old man whose main interest was to preserve leadership for his own unqualified family members; that is the nineteenth century, not the twenty-first.