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Subscribe to RSSPeeing while swimming in a lake may not just be taboo – it could also be lethal, for the fish.
At least that's what a group of anglers contend, blaming swimmers for the 500 dead fish that have turned up in a picturesque German lake near Hamburg, The Local reported.
"Swimmers who urinate in the lake are introducing a lot of phosphate," Manfred Siedler, a spokesman for an angler’s group, told Bild newspaper. "We're calculating half a liter of urine per swimmer per day."
Skeptics questioned whether the outcry was an attempt by fishermen to oust bathers – with whom they have long feuded, according to The Local – but are saying this could be possible.
IO9.com, a Gawker science blog posed the question, “Can anything as natural as peeing in a lake kill the fish?”
The answer, apparently, is yes.
The urine itself doesn’t harm the fish but sets off a series of environmental events that ultimately suffocate the fish.
First, the urine acts as a fertilizer for the blue-green algae in the water. Once they have consumed all the fertilizer, the algae continue sucking up available oxygen in the water, IO9.com explained. When the algae die and start to decompose, they further use up oxygen. That’s when fish start to die.
Bild reported that authorities have poured more than half a million dollars of an anti-phosphate agent called Bentophos into the lake, to no avail.
(Bentophos has been tested in artificial lakes that were shut down due to massive bacterial blooms.)
For now, the lake is closed to swimmers because of the high levels of algae (which can cause swimmer's itch), but the city's environmental authority is fighting the closure, The Local reported.
Kerstin Graupner, a spokeswoman for the environmental authority, told The Local that she blamed natural causes and ice-skaters.
"The ice-skaters make a noise that wakes the fish out of hibernation," Graupner said. "Then they can't breathe and freeze. That's a very common phenomenon."
Graupner’s agency called on a university in Hamburg to test the anglers’ theory. According to The Local, it appears the anglers may have a point – the scientists found anabaena algae blooms, which produce a toxin that ultimately restricts fish breathing.
The German lake isn’t the only place where officials worry about swimmers; signs at the Great Barrier Reef ask swimmers not to urinate in the water. Doing so apparently kills the corals, which grow in low nutrient waters.
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Damn!,, I knew I shouldn't have drank all that vodka last night!
It's a German lake, not a Russian one.
This explains it. It's not global warming and the ice melting that is causing the oceans to rise, it's the peeing in the water. Duh!, why didn't I think of that? I could won a Nobel Piss Prize.
shouldn't have drank that keg of beer before going in the lake !!!
pissing against the wind is just as bad..man is his worst enemy.....
Fish are endangered on this planet? When did this start?
So do you still have to shake vinegar on the fish or are they already tangy?
I pee on all my food - it gives me tiger blood.
Sounds like a bit of a stretch....... I believe fish turtles birds and god knows what is peeing in the lake.
Ah, piss on it!
Apparently "world news" can be anything published in any rag overseas. I doubt anything according to Bild Zeitung is remotely credible because it's actually just a tabloid. They regularly have photos of politicians in various stages of undress on vacation as the front page news, so this pee story is refreshingly scientific by those standards. I still don't buy it, though.
I think the BS flag is waving proudly over this article. It is pretty obvious.
And just where do these idiotic "officials" come from? Ah yes, a spokesman for an angling group. MSN must have needed a story and this was the best Isolde Raftery could come up with? Pretty sad.....
I call BS on this article! It's common knowledge that algae generates oxygen in the lake when growing, not using it up like the article states. Chlorophyll.... Heard of it?
fstdrvr2: It's called Eutrophication... Heard of it?
fstdrvr2......
It is taught in basic science courses.............algae blooms suffocate fish......you've never heard of the "red tide" fish kill ?????
Pee doesn't kill fish, "Captain Ds" , "Mrs Pauls", and " The Gorton's Fisherman" all kill fish.
Notice I didn't say "LongJohn Silvers"???? I have never found a real piece of fish there.
Who wants to swim around in a lake filled with piss anyway, take your lazy a$$es to the bathroom people!
Well, if you cook the fish you wont have to salt it :)
This story really pisses me off...........where's a lake?
Why are these fishermen fishing in this lake in the first place? And what do they do with the fish they catch? I don't know about everybody else, but I have a personal fishing rule to avoid fishing in yellow water!
What...? Exactly how many people are peeing in this lake, and how many times a day, in order for the urine amount to be SO high that even half a million dollars worth of Bentophos cannot combat the phosphate problem?!
...And who would want to go into a lake like that?!
Was the article written by The famous I.P Freely? You know, He also wrote the story "Yellow River!"
Fish....hybernate? Seriously? I live in Minnesota, where the cold water runs for over half the year. We catch fish by drilling holes in the ice. The ones WE pull out are NOT hybernating!
She-meant-hyPHENating.
So where do the fishermen pee? Do they go back to the landing or run aground every time someone has to take a leak?
So just where does everyone think the fish pee??????
This is dumb. Really dumb. Pee kills fish? That really is a stupid idea.
No, ice-skating kills fish.
Alcohol makes people stupid? Really? It isn't the EFFECTS of the alcohol that makes people stupid? Same thing with the pee killing fish -- IT'S THE EFFECTS OF THE PEE, NOT THE PEE ITSELF.
Maybe Vince-545056 has been drinking too much alcohol.
What no estimate on the number of jimmy floaters per swimmer per day?
Dang, Vince! A bunch of University chemists don't know what they are talking about, but you straightened them out!!
So far no one has blamed this problem on Bush?
So you don't believe it, huh. I say it's pretty possible. Some ponds, lakes, do not have and underground water source running into them or a water run off area. Their water levels are controlled by rains and water evaporation. It is possible for a build up of wizz over a long period of time and promote what science knows to be true. Quite often when somthing weird happens all at once, it is the end result of something that has been going on over a long period of time. On a small scale of this, go and urinate in your toilet 4,5,or 6 times without flushing. Not only will the water get darker it will start to smell up the bathroom. I'm with the scientist. As for the Cpt. Ds guy, you need to ask your father to explain to you the difference between a lake and an ocean.
If hundreds of thousands dollars worth of Bentophos did not neutralize phosphates from the piss, there must be a much greater source of phosphate getting into the lake - likely from fertilizers. But it is easier to blame the swimmers.
@6dogs - It rains all the time around Hamburg - evaporative water loss is not a problem in that area. It would take a month worth of piss to neutralize one load of laundry washed in a phosphate detergent, and that water eventually ends up in a rive or a lake, naturally after it has been treated, but not all wastewater treatment plants manage to remove all that phosphorus from their discharge. Still, nowadays much bigger problem comes from an overuse of fertilizers by common people using it on their lawns. Everybody likes to have a nice lush grass. But this grass has a very hefty price tag for the environment.
So let me get this straight.... The *fish* can pee in the water without any consequence... as well as beavers, ducks, or any other wildlife that live in the same ecosystem.... but somehow it's only *human* pee that causes problems? Furthermore, modern plumbing only became commonplace in the last 200 years. Surely people must have peed in or near the lake for thousands of generations before that. Why wasn't it a problem back then?
Maybe back then they didn't care if fish died. And it seems like more humans go there than beavers these days.
I have no idea if this is for real or not, because I am not a scientist and I haven't gathered any data. But it seems plausible.
You stated that surely people must have peed in the lake for thousands of generations before that...well maybe not. I doubt there were hundreds of swimmers there, it may have been more sparsely populated. And only in recent history did mass numbers of people know how to swim, so I suspect that more people might have a greater impact.
I guess only laboratory results will tell.
They gave us no real numbers to go on, but above a certain number it would happen. It's like the level of carbon dioxide in the air. When it hits a certain level, it renders you unconscious. At higher levels it kills us. It's the same principle climate change/global warming doubters don't consider. At one level carbon dioxide in the upper atmosphere helps keep the Earth in good shape. But, the more you add, the worse it's effects would be. Fill a 12oz glass with three ounces of water, you'll have room to spare. Add 9 more ounces, and you're still OK. Add any more, and it starts messing things up.
"Why wasn't it a problem back then"
It happened back then too but we didn't have twitter or the CNN 24/hours news.
Here's a question that is very similar to the one asked: "Why wasn't air pollution such a huge problem 200 or 2,000 years ago?"
The answer to both questions is BECAUSE 200 OR 2,000 YEARS AGO IT WAS NOT AROUND IN SUCH HIGH CONCENTRATIONS. More people peeing in a lake means higher concentrations of pee -- which means higher concentrations of the phosphates which are leading to the fish being killed.
so true!
May be the anglers should think of using what they call scarecrows - or, in this case, bather-scarers - to fool them into staying away from the lake. Nothing deters (or kills) like piranhas. Simply place the signs:
Beware! Piranhas Signhted
and May Be Breeding inThe Lake!
Avoid even going near the lake's edge!
-- Put up by Good Samaritan.
I hope the bathers know what a piranha is.
Hawaiicharles, maybe if you'd explore your state and go to Huanama Bay on Oahu (a popular snorkeling site) you'd see the signs posted asking people not to pee in the water because it does upset the balance of the natural ecosystem that exists there.
How big or small the lake and how many people,many or few.
@Mark O - it isn't CO2 that renders you unconscious and then kills you in the air. It is CO...carbon monoxide. In much lower quantities than it would take for CO2. You do realise that in "greenhouses" they actually enhance the CO2 levels to 2000ppm to enhance plant growth. Plants love it. Then the plants grow more rapidly and fuller and produce more O2 (that's oxygen which we love).
CO2 levels have been much higher on this planet than they are now.
CO2 levels continued to climb for the last 15 years...global temperatures have fallen since 1998. The MODELS, all 23 scientific models used for the "prediction" of global warming...have all failed. Even CRU admits this little disclosed fact.
Spartan- I'm sure there are plenty of Beavers that pee in the lake too.
Never saw a beaver the whole two years that I lived in Germany, but that was down in the southern part, way south of Hamburg. In my experience, if there is open water, then in the summertime Germans will swim in it. This must be a pretty small lake with a really large number of pissy swimmers.
Here's a solution: why don't we stop people from going near the water. That'll stop the fish from dying.
But doesn't it sound dumb?
Yet a better solution might be to determine the threshold level for pee in the lake and limit the swimmers to that level. OMG!
Introduce South America's candiru fish, I'm sure not a single person will pee in that lake ever again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candiru
Makes You Wonder What Really Is Killing The Fish.
Nazi fish. They took after the humans and its a fish holocaust. Now it's time for some American fish to go in there and kick their nazi fish butts.
On Second Thought Maybe It Is True Knowing All The bad Things They Put In Our Food And Water..
Back in the 60's Flipper had a hard time finding fish in Florida. Then there was the story of dogs pooping in the waters had a drastic effect. May-be they're right I Nazi any fish and jimmy crack corn. Whoever broke it, we need to fix it.
WTF
It is really gross how these official story writers are using slang words like "pee" and "peeing" on MSNs official website.
Just because our society is slipping into the dark ages, it doesn't mean writers should be pandering to the lowest common denominator. Let's get some class back into polite society. Writer Isolde Raftery seems to be a hog.
@!$%#in A right.
Does the word pee really offend you that much? You must have some major problems dealing with modern society, if that's the case.
Bob-378095, you really need to get a life, or find an isolated group of Puritans to join.
Talk about a bunch of "Peons" ..... Geech "And they call it Mello Yello, Quit rightly"........ Donovan
somebody been smoking bananas
QUITE likely!
That's the dumbest I've heard in a long time. The corporate polluters sure were happy to plant this story.
I think it might be all the medication people are on,we are killing ourselves,let alone [the fish] poor fish.
Actually, there are considerable concentrations of prescription drugs, especially, in most of the fresh waters of the world. Not only does it come from the regrettable practice of people flushing their old drugs down comodes, but also the fact that the majority of the dosage of most drugs passes through our systems (and those of our animals) unmetabolized or neary so. Even the runoff from a modern "factory"-style livestock farm will result in the addition of considerable amounts of drugs into the waters nearby.
For those of you comparing modern times to times of pre-industrial say, remember the worlds population was only about 15% of what it is now and we weren't consuming all the chemical garbage into our systems then that we do now. So yes I could believe this is a possibility depending on the volume of water involved and the amount of urine introduced into it. Very possible. Especially when you account for the love of beer in Germany.
Those swimmers and their recklessness just piss me off
Yeah, people,live long and die out,but don't kill the fish,we need to eat them.
Thnks Evan, that was effin funny!
What's on the menu ? Wizz white fish, pissed on paddle fish, urine urchins, streaming striper,and tinkle tuna. Let's hope they don't start pooping on ''Golden Pond " !
I can see a sign somewhere saying: "Welcome To Our Ond. Notice there is no "P" in it. Let's keep it that way."
In theory this makes sense. In practice, this is B.S. For those who don't know, introducing phosphates into a lake or stream raises the DO levels (dissolved oxygen), setting off the chain of events mentioned above. What the article fails to mention is how many phosphates are introduced into the lake at any given time per person's pee. IF a person pees one L of urine, they do release phosphates, but a minimal amount. NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO SPARK EXCESSIVE ALGEE BLOOM. If a wastewater treatment plant released untreated urine into a lake or stream that would spark excessive algae growth. Not a couple of dozen of people peeing. This article is BS. Comment again if you have any questions i might be able to answer. -Environmental Science expert
Good comment CgSailor. I'd like to know how many people they figure use this lake at any given time. Swimmers that is. This whole article doesn't make sense. I'd like to know the diffference between how many fish the fisherman have caught, and how many fish have died from whatever is causing this.
"Officials" Like to blame everything on the wrongs of mankind. We're destroying the Ozone, we're making the polar caps melt, now we're killing fish with pee.
What's next?
"I never drink water. Fish @!$%# in it." - W.C. Fields
There was also a massive fish kill a couple of weeks ago in the Cleveland Metroparks' Rocky River reservation, which was being blamed on ammonia. Urine does contain ammonia, but it would still be a bit cold to go swimming around the time those fish died.
There are numerous reasons as to why a lot of fish died at once. One reason is called a fishkill. Basically, all the fish suffocate and die because of natural, or anthropogenic reasons (man made). Maybe theres a farm nearby that leaked fertilizer into the lake. Or maybe there was a drought, temperature inversion, thermal pollution, ect. There are countless of reasons. Ice skating and peeing are NOT reasons for a fishkill.
They should test for aluminum dioxide and barium sulfate, a chemical added to jet fuel, since it is reported to be making many sick with flu like symptoms and even snowed in Hawaii at the highest point as a contributory cause.
But Urine killing fish, more of a fairy tail and if that was true it would not be part of a survival technique used in boot camp. Or maybe a test to see how gullible we have become?
Roger,
You are obviously very gullible, as well as uninformed and easily mislead, and I could go on about your IQ, but that is not the point. First off, aluminum dioxide and barium sulfate are not added to jet fuel. The complete absurdness of that statement is enough all on it's own.
What boot camp are talking about? Survival technique (drinking urine) for humans, maybe, but not for a freshwater fish (since when does a fish attend a boot camp?). Our urine is nothing the same as a fish, turtle, or other aquatic freshwater habitant.
Yes, how gullible YOU have become, to dismiss the truth (about Ph of urine and the effects on the environment), but still you would rather be persuaded to believe in urban legends ("chemtrails", how juvenile).
He can't help it. He's one of those CON-Theory Kiddies. "Real" isn't real to him. Matter-of-fact, a terrible disease has been spreading through the CON-Theory World for a few years, very contagious to those who are overly-paranoid, easily-led, hugely-gullible, or simply an idiot. It's called HETSCAR-Syndrome (Haven't Even The Slightest Clue About Reality). Don't think there's a very good chance of a cure either, since this unusual disease is ONLY curable by the afflicted. Absolutely no other person can help them, since a major symptom is becoming so brain-washed that the patient is terrified of every single other person in the world, because every single other person in the world is either Illuminati, Government workers whose job is to attack anyone not completely believing the "Official Story", and/or them there evil ole Masonic Rulers-Of-The-Whole-World ....... like me. It's GREAT having this much power at my disposal.
@will
@david
Actually weather modfication programs have been admitted by the US governemnt, China and Russia to name a few.
It's not widely read simply because most people don't care.
I watched Obama just last year talking about weather modification programs in the testing phase on one of the Alphabet news programs.
Just because you choose to be ignorant and chalk it up to Consipracy nuttters believing the odd and strange does not equal you being right simply put your willfully ignorant.
Some simple google searches will reveal mainstream sources discussing China and the Olympics during the rainy season and China promising no rain on the Olympics.
If you poke around you can find the video of Obama discussing combatting global warming with weather modification programs.
Remember the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth and man will never fly.
/rolls eyes
Like I always say.
It's better to be peed off than peed on.
This article surely supports it.
I will cross that lake off my vacation list if that many people swim there in that lake
Before I cross it off of my list I would have to know the number and description of the frauleins swimming in it, and in what general state of dress/undress.
Thats rigt Bob-378095, Lets PC this world to death! Lighten up, you you appear to be suffering from Analretentivness,!
Great comment! Every consider hitting "REPLY" so that it will appear under the comment of the person to whom it is addressed, instead of way down here away from it?
I know some farmers who had a catfish pond. They had to fence their cows where they couldn't get near the water, because their body waste was killing the fish just this way. But, I would have to know the numbers of people, and the rate of the water passing through the lake. It's all about the numbers. Put an eighty pound pack on them, and a fair number of men could carry it. The more you pile on, the harder it gets. There is a point at which no man could carry it. Just like our atmosphere, thetre's a minimum level of carbon dioxide to keep an ice age from happening. There's an ideal level, and at some level the ice starts melting faster than it can be replaced. We're already there.
hawaiicharles
You must be a complete idiot! How can something, that lives naturally in nature, harm what it's a part of, with it's urine and feces? I don't recall ever seeing any wildlife going to the doctors and dopping up on dozens of different medications....have you? I don't ever seem to remember a duck, beaver, fish, water snake, or any other aquatic creature running to the store for junk foods and other poisons to put into their bodies....Now, how can't you see what human urine, can do to an ecosystem? Ever wondered about the water you drink from the faucet? Well, next time, try going down to the local sewage recycling plant and dipping your cup over into one of those waste water tanks for a nice refreshing glass of human waste( make sure to ask them to strain the @!$%# out of it first) and then you drink it down... Never amazes me, how dumb two generations can be.
Its not that ANY amount of urine will kill the fish. Its that EXCESSIVE amounts will. I used to keep fish,so I know a little about water quality and how it effects fish. Most animals around dont urinate IN the water. Some do of course. Go out to the lake and tell me how many 100-200lb animals you see swimming in the lake (other than humans). Now,suddenly,its a nice summer day and 500-1000 people show up and go swiming over the course of the day. Becuase its just the lake,who cares,its not like its a pool,200 of those people take a leak in the water. Thatsa 200 litres or about 50 gallons or urine. Not total mind you,per day. Over a month,thats 1500 gallons of urine. That causes the alge bloom which kills the fish. Why does urine from the occasional otter or bear not kill them? Because the eco system stabilized and developed taking that into account. There are enough fish and insects and such to eat the alge that grows from the amount of nutrients available. Its all an equilibrium. Now throw 1000 gallons more nutrients into the lake and it screws things up.
Is this what happened? Its a plausible explantion. Lab tests will easily determine it. In the mean time,it makes sense to close it to swimming while they find out. Once they have they can figure out how to deal with it. I imagine just posting signs and educating people may well do it. The obvious way to find out is to re-open the lake for swimming ,but in limited numbers.
My first thought is to allow a limited number of swimmers in,and measure the levels of "nutrients" in the lake without swimmers and then with the swimmers. Then post signs and hand out leaflets etc,explaining why you should not urinate in the lake. Make sure there are toilets available as well. This may work better in Germany than you would think becuase they tend to take these sorts of rules more seriously than we do in the US. Then see how that reduces the levels. From that they can determine safe number of swimmers in the lake.
There is another way to look at this situation. Consider it to be a big pool. The organisms that live in the lake are the filtration system. Just as at the local community pool there is only so much "contaminants" (that would be dead skin,hair,urine,sun tan lotion etc) that the filter system can handle ,the filtration system of the lake can only handle so much. Exceed that and it all goes sideways on you and the fish die.
Bryant, most sewage treatment plants treat the water before it is released into the environment--they do not recycle the water for human consumption. Right now, the only plant that produces recycled water from sewage is in Singapore.
Urine and excrement are a big environmental problem whenever animals are in concentrated populations, such as large feeder lots for cattle, pigs, etc., large zoos, and human towns and cities. This is not a "natural" state. It's possible that human bathers peeing in a lake could add to a pollution problem, but it would have to be a large number of people.
Well,..... Piss!
Very funny Danimal63,I agree,the older you get,the more you better laugh,or it becomes no fun anymore.
Germans are a sub human species.
Damn, laguna; a little harsh, aren't you?
Really,becuase Ive known plenty of Germans and they all seemed to be very nice,articulate and intelligent people. They did not appear to be in the least subhuman. One of them though said she once got detention in a highschool history class when she was an exchange student. She said that the teacher become upset when she suggested the history book was in fact wrong,and that WWII actually started well BEFORE Pearl Harbor. You would think a girl who grew up in Germany would KNOW when Germany started the war,but apperantly the German education system had failed her and it too a teacher at "Dixie High School" (seriosly,thats what it was called) to set her straight. ;-)
Iaguna--If you are a white person then the chances of you having German blood is very high. You yourselve are sub human
laguna, slink back across the border and outa THE UNITED STATES.
Obviously you are very stupid, laguna. Germans are not a "species", they are a group of people. "Species" is the whole human race. And if you are so willing to call Germans "subspecies", then what about the thousands of German descendants living around the world? Moron.