Doug..."the civilized world" removed Saddam from power and it took 10 years, 10000 coalition forces soldiers lives and over 100000 Iraqi civilian lives and we all know how popular that was. Aside from levying sanctions, which has already been done in spades, we're all ears as to how you think the "civilized world" should deal with Iran.

What happens in Iran, stays in Iran. Or it should.

@OilmanMD

It took ten years because of the yahoos in congress that hog-tied our troops at every turn and refused to let them do what they needed to do...kill the bad guys. I say yahoos, because I blame both the dems and the repubs for making a mockery out of our soldiers and the US Military all in the interest in universal political correctness.

It was unfortunate that we had to invade, but we gave the UN every chance in the book, and all they did was issue worthless proclamations over and over for several years without having the teeth to back it up. The world saw, and still sees, the UN for the weak institution that it is, bro. I agree with diplomacy, but unfortunately diplomacy only goes so far.

I think maybe we should focus on trying to get out of Afghanistan and fix the economy before we invade Iran; although I fancy that it might actually be easier to defeat Iran since their military wears uniforms. Of course if I was the commander of the Iranian military, I'd just tell them to put on civilian clothes and give America another 10 years of wasted lives and money.

I second that Baldman. Let some other "civilized" nation take the lead in dealing with Iran for once! We basically can't afford it.

markerdown76,

Dubbya, is that you?

Car56 quote "Let some other "civilized" nation take the lead in dealing with Iran for once! We basically can't afford it."

Oh I assure you Car56, some other civilized nation will take care of Iran. Israel will if necessary destroy all of Iran's defenses within 72 hours if they believe that Iran is really close to a nuclear bomb. That I know. America talks a big game, Israel plays a big game. We want everyone to be "our friend", and we don't like casualities, Israel doesn't care "about the game", the only game they play is to win decisively, and quickly.

One thing to remember about the Israel's, for every action there is at least an equal and opposite reaction.........

One thing to remember about the Israel's, for every action there is at least an equal and opposite reaction.........

You mean like when Israel won it's war in 6 days? You mean that reaction, one that happens when you get your clock cleaned in a matter of days? and then you do as your told, you mean that opposite reaction? 77, Israel is not the USA, they don't fool around like we do. So sorry your "physic's experiment" doesn't hold any water.

JCB I believe the point your making is exactly what 727 was saying. Isreal has had a long history of retaliation and pre imminent strikes.

I'm not necessarily a fan of Israel. They also, like the US, have good and bad characteristics and practices. Nevertheless, I like the way Israel walks softly (most of the time) and not only carries a big stick, but also is not afraid to swing that stick. Smack until they say uncle and then go home. Too bad the US can't learn from a people passionate enough to protect what they have.

when is this going to stop I am sick & tired of these horrible things being done by any country but iran is crazy, I am seeing a lot of crazy things going on in our own country things I never thought anyone could get away with we are no longer free

So you believe that Israel does not have spies in Iran? LOL! You people should quit smoking weed all the time...

At least Iran is open and rightous about it

Thanks for the laugh, you gave me a great start to the day with that one.

Conrad,

Go back to Iran, and shut up...

I dont know what is being suggested in the first comment that the "civilized world" do about the situation in Iran. Its a ruthless disguting dicatorship that is well reported on. There are multiple other revolting oppressive regimes. Personally, I think China is a gleaming shining repressive regime, yet we buy everything we can from them at cut rate prices thus enriching them. Where does one pick and choose about precisely what to do?

The guy is probably innocent. Iranian dictators probably waterboarded him to get a confession out of him. Can you imagine that?

Granted that Iran is ruled psychotic religious fanatics supported by the Iranian Revolutionary guards and also granted that the Iranians of all stripes and colors (religious, non-religious, moderate, not-so-moderate, anti-Khomeini, and pro-Khomeini groups) covet Iran to possess nuclear arsenal by hook or crook (similar to what Pakistan did), it's still doesn't warrant what Israel has been doing to the Iranian Scientists. Israelis are employing the same terrorists' tactics Palestinians and other Arabs employed against Israeli citizens during the 80s and 90s. This is state-orchestrated terrorism (killing Iranian Scientists and sabotaging their installations, etc.) at its worst. For US to look the other way is simply abominable.

Western sanctions and tightening the screws on the Iranian interests are the best way to make Iran come to the negotiating table. If Israel or any other western agencies adapt the Gestapo tactics, then we will use credibility and we will become one of them and will have no moral high ground on this issue. It's time we stop the Israeli Gestapo activities against other sovereign countries.

"Twenty-four year old Majid Jamali Fashi was hanged at Tehran's Evin Prison after being sentenced to death in August last year for the murder of Massoud Ali-Mohammadi,"

Israeli spy must be very good and the Iranian intelligence very poor!

When mad Mullahs rule, they can imagine anything!

JCB, what you wrote is exactly what I said, that they don't fool around and get the job done with at least equal retribution. There will be retaliation soon but probably undercover.

I should have worded it so a 5th grader could understand or maybe your buzz will wear off by 10 am??? It was good for a morning laugh especially considering the number of people who piled on with you........

.

Konrad........American is spelled with a "c".

Oilman.....It only took a few weeks to remove Saddam. 10 years to and counting to figure out and end game. Lesson learned don't invade a country that has no history of democracy at any level and expect a victory parade.

Jcb.....Respect the Jewish army but don't kid yourself either. They lost part of their soul in Lebonon and during the Infada. Besides living in a country where everyone has a gas mask is not a great thing.

So, Iran hanged a terrorist that worked for Israel. I'm sure they got lots more waiting for their paycheck. Goes to show that we probably have terrorists under pay doing our dirty work too.

I wonder how long it would take people to realize that if terrorist are trained by the CIA, English intelligence and Israel, that those terrorist are working for someone here. Maybe that's why the attack on 9/11 happened before the big bras arrived to work and while the safes were closed so that only regular people died and their wealth was protected.

Why is this news--USA bombed shot and killed almost 1,000,000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan, by taking down the governments and loosing control of the people--(same would happen here 100 % certain)

Anyway, so start talking in the news about each one of all those dead people, including all the dead NATO people (almost as many dead as USA lost) they got dragged into it by the promise of "freedom" "Muslim hunting season"!---The "Nuke-Liar was right though, possibly he can actually say "nuclear" weapons, but he was a "liar" about it in Iraq!!

We all know prophet Mohammed did it, he hates scientists.

LOL, Clown (post 1.10) -

You SAY that like it's a bad thing.

I would like to ask all of the people on here that know so much about how bad Iran is, when was the last time that you were in Iran,where are you getting your information from.do not tell me the Israeli controlled US news media.

My .02 but, I think Ron Paul put it best when he said we should start minding our own damn business. And, we have a lot of business at home to take care of such as: our massive debt, civil disunity, crumbling infrastructure, a media that is manipulating us like puppets and, an environment and food supply that are slowly poisoning us. Yeah, I think those problems should be enough for us start thinking about devoting a greater portion of our resources at home.

My .02 but, I think Ron Paul put it best when he said we should start minding our own damn business

Agreed

Doug..."the civilized world" removed Saddam from power and it took 10 years, 10000 coalition forces soldiers lives and over 100000 Iraqi civilian lives and we all know how popular that was. Aside from levying sanctions, which has already been done in spades, we're all ears as to how you think the "civilized world" should deal with Iran.

Not exactly true. Saddam was removed from power in 2 weeks from the invasion. He was caught within 12 months from the invasion. He was tried, convicted, and sentences to death by his open country's court withing about 3 years.

What actually took 10 years (and most likely more than 10 years) was the building and stabilizing of the country after the removal of the dictator. BTW, this is in a way nothing different than what has occurred throughout recording history. Examples, post Germany was not all roses after the death of Hitler. Post Libya is not roses after the removal of Qaddafi. The removal of the Shal of Iran still reverberates through our current issues today with the country. The forceful removal of any government of a country has always produced a vacuum for power. And vacuums tend to suck people into them, some of which are unable to withstand the pressure.

We should remember this any time we have a president, and popular opinion, stating that we should get involved in the removal of such governments, i.e. Syria, Iran, North Korea, Cuba. I am not suggesting that their removal is not necessary, only that we should remember that when it becomes necessary it is often easy to remove them but hard to fill the vacuum afterwords. We should also stop trying to re-write history to suite our ideas of what is "right" and "just".

Another thing. People start talking about the psychotic dictatorship in Iran and all that. Firstly, you can damn bet that our view of him has been manipulated by some politicians and the media. And yeah, we might think of him as a bit off but, he's running a theocracy. It's going to clash with our view of the world. However, let's just accept that some people like that form of government better. I bet a bunch of conservative Christians would like nothing more than a theocratic state based on the Christian religion. Some might argue that, despite the form of government in Iran, he is still nuts. So, what is our role here? Do we need to step in and sanction or try to remove every nut job who is running a country? Let's just step back, get our lips off of Israel's ass, and start being a little smarter in our foreign policy.

It is pathetic at the propaganda and bullshlt the way it spins its info.

The headline should have stated "Iran excecuted 'Israeli Trerrorist'". I dont care for either of these countries, however US and Israel unity and their aultimate agendas are the cause for many of these wars...

Had it been reversed...you know the headline would be "Israeli hangs Iranian terrorist".....its all bullshlt to keep one side hating the other. This is disgusting...Look at the Iranian and look at the Israeli...aside from the border, they are the same....they look like brothers!

As much as I recognize that Iran is full of crackpots, this is what happens when you violate the sovereignty of a foreign nation. I support this hanging 100%, just as I would support hanging any spy caught operating in the US.

727, "I should have worded it so a 5th grader could understand or maybe your buzz will wear off by 10 am??? It was good for a morning laugh especially considering the number of people who piled on with you........"

Maybe you should have worded it with clarity, not with semantics's, because your point was certainly not clear based on the number who "piled on". Get off your high horse pal, you can be congenial and not be a smart a.. Nice beats anger most of the time, try it, you'll like it. There's enough bitterness and rage on here already. Have a nice day, and I only get a buzz on after 5pm. LOL

If we go to war with Iran, it will possibly be the worst decision ever. If they do something that makes it impossible for us to do anything else then maybe talk of war. I think risking anything that would kill innocent Iranian people that from what I can tell are not our enemies. I do not want anymore innocent people killed by the U.S.

By, the way for all you hawks, who is going to fight this one? Please enlist or have your sons and daughters enlist to serve, but, you cannot send the veterans of the current wars to handle yet another paranoid reaction to a country that is not a real threat to this country.

Folks, it is not OK to kill a nuclear scientist of another country. It is not OK to put economic sanctions. You are killing people because they cannot find medicine. It is not OK to try to coerce a nation into giving up nuclear ambitions while you have done it all. These are acts of war. Look at the mirror to understand why you keep making enemies. You are selfish a*holes. Same was done to Germany before second world war because they would not play the international banking game. Then they attacked. But the first aggression that forced them to attack was from west. This is how your slave masters play this game. Put economic sanctions so that they either lose or they have to attack. Very well done. War mongers. You want entire world to be in debt and be a good slave, don't you?

@theplaintruth

I think you nailed it. There is definitely manupilation in our media!

Conrad-1865098,

Put down the bong and get out of the basement for a while. You will benefit from fresh air and sunshine.

There have been and always will be spies; it's been going on forever and a day and I'm certain we've our share, everywhere. No nation or even smaller group of tribal peoples take well to them when discovered and it's an inherent danger to doing such. It becomes news worthy because it's Iran and Israel; the hot topics currently but don't believe that even in remote parts of Africa spies aren't caught and dealt with almost daily when the entire globe is considered. All groups, nations, states want to glean information about enemies and friends, neighbors alike and there's one way to do this...

Some have broken down here to wars and what would happen if there's another war. We've not been in a war for many, many years; we've been in PC manipulations of national interest in nation tearing and building. War is war and is or should be of last resort, especially in the ME. Going in and bombing enough to take down any said government, trying to minimize civilian loss and then hiding about the corner looking for whom's hiding about the corners from you isn't war.... that's political BS, a means of money laundering for some invested in the military contracts, Fallstreet manipulation, the Illegal Fed Reserve, and strategic $$ locations.

Again, war needs to be the last resort and when declared it's us vs. them until the entire area is secured, what's deemed the enemy all but wiped out, on their knees and not even a hint of resistance or even small groups of any threat left. That's why it's called war, that's why the saying 'war is hell' came about and why it can't be a politically correct, wait to see who may shoot or carry a bomb, hang out for a dozen years losing your own soldiers to it PC, look good to the rest of the world, righteous BS occupation (or whatever some may call it).

Now, especially with media and technology, people buffaloed by PC swayings and tactics - during what's termed a 'war' or 'invasion', people read about a family hit by a missile, 'innocents' caught in the fire, etc., etc., ... . IMO - DUDE! It's WAR! No one in the military signed up to wait, have their arm blown off before KNOWING the person or group was the enemy.... declaring war MAKES that nation, their people YOUR enemy. My point? DON'T declare war unless you mean WAR; no invasions, curb hunting the 'enemy', force political views, forms of government for strategic, $$, or other intentions that are BS. IF war is declared, get in, get the job done, let the military do their thing and get out. And, don't sit back and mourn 'innocents' lost; you've declared WAR. THAT'S what war is.

The ultimate last, last, last resort and again, IMO, only if you're directly under threat. Not if you're a percieved threat, not if you've done something to someone else.... YOU and you alone - direct threat.

And the threat of nuclear weapons? I believe in the theory of assured mutual destruction; there's much to that. They're more of a deterent than a threat and I don't believe any, as so very many are armed, would use them. No matter what some think, I don't see Iran developing nukes, hitting Israel, and then not caring if they get wiped out, too..... that's movie, science fiction. Much to do about nothing.....

I am seeing a lot of crazy things going on in our own country things I never thought anyone could get away with we are no longer free

Tango Charlie Delta, this is hangman. Quit with the columbian hookers, we have a situation. Bird in flight, I repeat, we have a bird in flight. Commence operation "turkey shoot." Do you roger that?

JCB, what I wrote was short and clearly written. Sorry if you were high or a senior moment happened to repeat a comment over. Not trying to be mean, just stating the facts. Have an independent thought once in awhile and lay off the daily 5pm booze, it eats away brain cells........I am a nice guy until someone jumps in my sht for no reason.

You know, there is considerable danger in overestimating a country's military capabilities. Whenever someone claims that Israel will just wipe the floor with Iran they're just kidding themselves. This is a serious issue, and maybe people should start looking at it seriously.

I really don't see where it is any of our business. It is only a serious issue if it is made a serious issue.

the soap opera continues.....ahhhh we are such primitive creatures lol

I would have hanged thisguy's entire family just to send a message to every citizen that the integrity of the country supersedes anybody's rights.

thank you "glotious leader" Kim

the soap opera continues.....ahhhh we are such primitive creatures lol

so very true, its amazing that people can't see that we act just like the apes we evolved from. we just figured out a few extra tricks

@jacksonc, you're entire post is based on a notion that Iran's delvings into nuclear power are entirely selfless and good-natured, that they won't use this to build weapons and eventually use them. Spin the words anyway you want, Iran has said the instant they have the power to do so, Israel is gone. Now something I've said time and again, and I'll continue to say it until someone bothers to listen, if you think for a second that Iran is not researching nuclear weapons, you are either naive, blind or stupid.

As to the killing of the scientist, my support or condemnation all depends on if he had been a willing participant to the development of said nuclear arms, or if he was forced into it by the (as stated in this topic several times) "psychotic rulers of Iran."

NUKE THEM ALL LET ALLAH SORT THEM OUT!!

Hand them a preassembled nuclear program via cruise missle!

Im just sick and tired of the whole muslim community,some are peaceful and some are not but even the ones that are peaceful would never turn in the ones hiding in their mosques,churches and schools which makes them complicit so...

I refer you to my openning statement!

LEGALIZE MARIJUANA!

I meant to say "mosques,hospitals and schools"

LEGALIZE MARIJUANA!

No matter what your opinion of the Israeli-Palestinian situation, there will be NO GOOD to come from a nuclear armed Iran as long as it is led by Ahmadouchebag and his Mullah handlers, Islamist psychopaths who seem to believe a nuclear Armageddon would be a good thing no matter HOW MANY innocent Muslims perish in the cross fire, as long as their arch enemy Israel is destroyed !!

As for the poor chap these losers stretched, he is just one of millions of Iranians oppressed or exterminated by the regime in the 30 + years since their regressive Islamist "revolution".

Tea Sucks,the Jews invented the terrorist tactics,remember the argon, the stern,from these groups grew the ruling partys of Israel's present day government.

Max's quote "You mean torture like water boarding used by CIA?"

Hey Max that's not torture, that's coercion. Torture is when they hook a car battery up to someones testicles and turn it on pal, or plant a female up to her neck and then throw stones at her head till she's dead, that's torture. Waterboarding is neither of those. Don't ever put America in the same vain as Iran. You equate Islamic nutcases who treat woman as third class citizens, you have bogus courts controled by Emans, and you have a rouge country hell bent on destroying the middle east as it gains more and more control over it's neighbors, and you want to equate our legal system to theirs? You sir are an ill-informed excuse maker for a country that does not offer anything to this planet but unrest and disention. Their day will come either one way or the other. I hope they collapse from within, but if they go poking around with Israel there going down.

America's enemies (especially Iran and N Korea) applaud Obama's efforts to stop the US's use of torture and coersion! Coincidentally our own media also agress with them! What's wrong with this picture? If not for our bleeding heart media, we could have been out of Iran a long time ago.... again our enemies applaud both our liberal administration and it's very liberal media... !

Torture is an effective method of national security and has been used for thousands of years! Why, because it is effective.

Torture is an effective method of national security and has been used for thousands of years! Why, because it is effective.

yep, used by evil and tyrannical regimes everywhere what a great idea! we can be just like them! what what a stroke of genius, mark!

face it mark, if you want to be just like NK and Iran, China, etc. then you have no freaking place whatsoever bitching about them, because we will be exactly like them

If they are spies,they should be executed.

israeli spy = terrorist

Anyone can label anyone as a spy. If there wasn't some sort of torture then we would not have good intel. we would have lost WW2 also. It's allright for Islam to cut off the heads of our civilians but not alright for us to waterboard someone and give them 3 meals a day and keep them alive in aplace where we respect their religion?

I admire Israel for being surrounded by a billion hostile Arabs and being able to create a Democracy in the middle east. They are confronted by Palestinian terrorist that come into Israel and murder Israeli women and children. Israel is a beacon of light that produces some of the best scientest, doctors, Nobel prize winners and IT professionals in the world. What has the Arab world given us? Jihad, suicide bombers, mass murders, welfare, lies, treating women very poorly and killing gays.

If the Arab world really wanted peace then there would be peace with Israel. Plain and simple. The fact is that the Palestinians are considered the lowest form of people by all the Arab nations and are used by Arab nations to keep the fight up against Israel.

If you were to go to Israel you would see the Israeli spirit and the plight they are up against in their part of the world. Israel is our closest allie.

Alan....you're Isreali? They are ALL the same....the only difference, Israel has the support of the US and with our corrupt govt and theirs as well. And the US's manifest destiny to expand the entire globe and force our way of life to everyother nation and that we occupy all these other countries is why we have problems with others.

Let us get out of those countries....its not our problem. Then we will see how terrorism "magically" dissapears. The news tells you that terrorists dont like oru western freedom, so they try to kill us???? You believe that @!$%#! WRONG, We go to their country, sanction them, tell them how to run their country, tell them how to live, and if they dont agree, we kill their leader, put our choice up, and then turn on them 20 years later.

It's called the CUDS...no one can get close enough to the ayatollahs to do them mortal harm. They live in total seclusion from the masses.

Bill you got the wrong enemies. israel and its Zionist war mongers are the threat to world peace, not Iran. Iran hasn't started a war with another country in over 180 years. Here is an example of Israeli thinking.

Israel is a threat to world peace and is
plotting the “annihilation of Iran”, Nobel prize laureate Gunther Grass has said in a poem
published today by the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper and other European
dailies.

The 84-year-old long-time leftist activist wrote
in “What must be said” that he worried Israel “could wipe out the Iranian
people” with a “first strike” due to the threat it sees in Tehran’s disputed
nuclear program.

“Why do I only say now, aged and with my last
ink: the atomic power Israel is endangering the already fragile world peace?”
reads the poem.

“Tomorrow could already be too late” and Germany
could be a “supplier to a crime”, referring to a deal sealed last month for
Berlin to sell Israel a sixth nuclear-capable Dolphin-class submarine.

There is of course no reason for Israel to have
submarines capable of delivering nuclear warheads to any target in the world –
unless of course, it needs them to attack other nations, as predicted by of the
Israeli military historian, Martin van Creveld, who in 2010 said that “Israel
could find itself one day forced to exterminate the European continent using
all kinds of weapons including its nuclear arsenal if it felt its demise
neared,” and stressed that “Israel also considers Europe a hostile target.”

“We have hundreds of nuclear warheads and
missiles that can reach different targets in the heart of the European
continent, including beyond the borders of Rome, the Italian capital,” Creveld
said, adding that most of the European capitals would become preferred targets
for the Israeli air force.

He reiterated “Israel’s ability to destroy the
whole world whenever it felt its existence would be doomed to extinction.”

_And people say the Ayatollahs are crazy!

Isreal has got mad people like Netanhayus. They should catch hold of some two Hamas members and claim that they were making WMDs and hang them in public!

It will be worth watching.

Even if the Israelis could hit the Ayatollahs without taking out most of the country in the process, why would they? Someone who would actually be sane and effective might take power, and then they'd be in real trouble.

Leaders respect other leaders, that's what guarantees their survival. If Israel goes for the Ayatollah Whatshisname, the Ayatollahs people would go after the leaders of Israel. Ever read the Iliads? Heroes (that's nobles) fight heroes. The low life (that's us) fight the rabble.

Wow, Ralphie 4.2 has really been drinking the koolaid of the left! "Iran hasn't started a war with another country in over 180 years." And I'm sure Iran has no intentions of building a nuclear bomb... wink, wink!

Iran must be stopped at all costs! Does nobody here remember Xerxes?

Uh Markie- Do you have any proof that what I said is incorrect? I think not. In fact, all 16 US intelligence agencies concluded Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program. Furthermore, some Israeli officials have come to the same conclusion.

The only Kool aid being consumed is by right wing war mongers. Are you still hiding under your beds in fear of those "weapons of mass destruction"? Where were those "mobile biological weapons labs", Bush and Fox News was railing on about?

Iran already had One elected president over thrown with the help of the UK andUSA (1953)The people had to endure a brutal dictator( THE SHAH) for 27 years.

Ralph is right, as religiously fundamental and crazy they seem, they have never attacked another country first under this current regime, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was 180 years.

And honestly, Iran is no more religiously fundamental than America, just a different religion.

Don't believe me, just read the comments under any of the gay marriage articles on MSNBC.

Ralph H your a Palestinian. All your post are anti-semitic and full of hatred and lies. So are you surperskunk. Israel is a model country, a democratic state. Iran is run by religious fanatics that hate America and Israel. It's not the people of Iran because they don't have a voice but the government, the mullahs, the right wing that will not cede power and murder their own citizens, especially gays.

Alan - I served in the US Navy from 1958 until 1962. My brother was a career sailor. Telling the truth about Israel or Iran does not make me anti semitic.

Israel is a terrorist country, run by right wing fanatics, which was complicit in 9/11 and attacked the USS Liberty in 1967. Watch Bldg 7 fall into it's own footprint in a controlled demolition on 9/11. Bldg 7 was owned by Silverstein and had been recently insured against a terrorist attack, prior to 9/11. If one building was rigged to fall in a controlled demolition, they all were rigged. They all fell in the same manner, straight down in less than 11 seconds. Bldg 7 fell in 6.5 seconds and was not hit by an airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=972ETepp4GI&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A3dW_gUwOg

Silverstein was smart. And Bully for him.

If you bought a ultra high rent , high return on your dollar building that was part of a complex in a fatwa...err, flood plain that suffered and survived a flood YOU (if you were smart and not a hypocrite) would buy a flood clause on your insurance. Those that seem too hardened with hate don't "remember" that the twin tower complex was the victim of a previous Islamic attack that failed.

PS. Tim McVeigh also served "admirably"

yep ralphie, some people sure are suckers that will believe anything to blame the jews. adolph would be proud of you for spreading the lies

and frankly I don't give a spit if you were in the navy fifty years ago, you still are a racist, POS

Iran hasn't started a war with another country in over 180 years

no, they just supply their lackeys in other countries with guns, bombs and missles

The military side of you is brainwashed. The nation that used terrorism via dropping two bombs on a civilian populace is a fascist country run by tyrants who assasinate their own citizens, drone surveil them, torture people, outlaw forms of protest near federal buildings and Secret Service agents, kill hundreds of thousands of women and children as "collateral damage", and this is just a short list....

Your brainwashing is understandable. You've been taught your entire life to say a pledge to the state everyday in school since 1st grade, like all of us.

"I pledge allegiance to the state, even though I'm too young to understand what I'm saying. This isn't at all creepy, even though this was written by a socialist nationalist who wanted the state to be central in life and the individual to be viewed as a simply cog in the state machine. I know the original salute to this flag was the Bellamy salute, or the same exact one the Nazis used and the fascist Italians used, and I know that they stole the salute from us, and that we didn't change it until the 1940s. I know we used to sterilize people by force of law at that time in over half the States of the Union. I know that it was illegal and punsihable by law for kids to refuse to say this pledge until a Christian took it to court and won because it clearly says in the Bible pledges like this are a sin. I know nationalism is not patriotism, and nationalism is a leading cause of statism, which in turn causes totalitarianism. But this is not brainwashing. This is not brainwashing. This is not brainwashing. THIS IS NOT brainwashing. If I say it enough maybe it'll become true. Amen, Under God, I swear to kill kids from other countries when I grow up if the state demands it. Anti-liberty and injustice for all. This is not brainwashing. War is Peace, Slavery is Freedom, Ignorance is Strength, Interventions are Humanitarian, Pepper Spray is a Vegetable, Defense is Offense. This is not brainwashing. Heil the President, our elected dictator. The state is my god. This is not brainwashing."

That's the pledge I hear everytime children and/or adults chant that nonsense propaganda nationalist braiwashing tool.

You had that, and then joined the military on top of it! It may take you a lifetime to snap out of that brainwashing. Then again, you may never wake up.

Proindividual - youre a retard. lol... First peace is not something that is just laid out onto a plate for free. Peace begins with having a "tougher" person to defend what they believe is right for them. The US does not look for war. Ya, we are war dogs and will go to a fight when the time comes, but it takes us a while to get to that level.

To win a war, one must demoralize and literally beat the will to fight from the opposition. Our forefathers did that. Without war, you, me, and many other non-anglo saxons may be working as sharecroppers or even still... slaves. We would have be a part of Spain, or England or France. All of whom had barbaric means of handling traitors etc.

Isreal is a small country that many want to destroy. Its biblical. Why give a country a nuke that desires to use it as a offensive weapon? the US and Russia went through the same situation. If we did not develop nukes for defensive purposes, then Cuba would have rockets up our a$$.

No.. Peace is developed. While in a perfect world Peace should just occur, this is not a perfect world. Evil men have a united purpose to destroy. To ensure peace, we must be the tougher entity. We must show we WILL fight if necessary and when we do fight, there will be consequences those offenders will suffer. If that means they die, their family dies, and their extended friends and family die, well then, others will see that this is not a way to handle things. If they cannot win by fighting, then maybe... one day.... they will see that conversing, negotiations, and other forms of communication will prevail and all can ultimately have that "peace" you tout about.

Until YOU have to fight for what you believe in with your life, you proindividaul will never understand it. So just say thank you... If you lived in another country, your comments may have justified killing you, here, you have freedom to speak your mind... like I did.. RETARD....

You have a problem..you need to leave America and go to a country like Iran, with its radical Islamic religion and state terrorism...Iran and other countries like it are places you need to live, then come back to America and see how bad it is...I and millions of others including Rick 2416019 put time in the military so people like you could spew the junk that you spew out....If we had not you would be speaking some other language and fearing the SS or the Stasi or KGB or some other security force, hoping you don't say something wrong and find yourself in prison waiting to be executed. You need help.....

I'm actually exactly correct. Any service or good the state provides can be provided by the market...and we know this because the state only provides these things at all because the market demands them.

What is the predictable result of all coercive monopolies? Higher costs, lower quality, and low accountability. That is the state.

So to think offense is defense makes you the fool, not me. You've been brainwashed into thinking these troops fight for our freedoms in wars of aggression that have nothing to do with our defense. The first 2 months of Afghanstan was defense...everything after that was occupation and COIN (counter insurgency, aka nation building). You're still too brainwashed to realize that. You still think defense is offense and war is peace.

Wake up. Take the Red Pill. You are a tax cow on a tax farm, and the state is your master. Face it, and free yourself. Stop buying into their lies. Our troops don't fight for our freedoms...they are sent to die so we can dominate by force nations who are no threat to us. We could destroy any governmenti n the world in 2 months tops...with the exception of nuke nations who are unexploitable via game theory economics. We are also unexploitable to them. When is the last time two nuke nations enagaged in a full out "Hot War" and not just minor skirmishes and "Cold Wars"? NEVER. Hence why we don't nations to have nukes...we want to exploit them and laud power over them.

The U.S. state is not your firend...it is is your sociopathic master. It's led by sociopaths from the DemoCrip and RepubliBlood Parties. They want to extrot you, lock you jail cells for nonviolent crimes, and call us the "free-est nation" while simultaneously being the most imprisoned nation on Earth and the 2nd most imprisoned in history...where 50% of those in jail are nonviolent people...and where 1 in 3 black men will be in the system at some point despite study after study showing they don't commit these crimes at a higher rate than other races. 1 in 9 black men are in jail right now, over half for nonviolent crimes.

Free? Peace? Yeah right. Hence why I'm moving out of this country and might renounce my citizenship. There are free-er countries in both social and economic freedoms. Don't let your home team bias blind you. Look, and leave, before this fascist country makes you face that it's too late.

hey pro idiot... if you dont like the AMERICAN way then leave our soil and shut the f u c up. The US has become more and more a sissy state because of idiots like yourself. MY children will taught the pledge of alliegiance, the constitution, and the american way of life. so sit down shut up you f u cin tard. All americans need to stand up and fight this type of idiotacy.. these type are ruining our way of life.... take your retarded thinking and go elsewhere with it. before the real americans open up a can of whoop azz and waterboard you.... :p

Stan...it's not my fault you were fool enough to join a military that has only fought two wars of self defense in 80 years of all the wars it fought in that time...and those wars were both predictable (WW2 was caused by the WW1 allies bankrupting the Germans in the reparations, hence Hitler going from a jail cell for treason and attempted coup to leader of the country in an economic collapse we helped cause...and 9/11 was directly a result of our foreign interventions, including the death of 500,000 Iraqi children that Madeline Albright said "was woth it"...like the sociopath she is).

Face it, you screwed up, and didn't fight for freedoms. You fought offense wars of occupation and nation building for an empire. You were/are brainwashed and need to wake up. Calling yourself a hero every morning in the mirror isn't changing the facts.

Joe...ever here of individual sovereignty? This country was built on that enlightenment idea. I don't have to leave, moron statist nationalist.

BTW, I am leaving...read what I wrote in the statement above your idiot comment. I don't have to though...that's the perk of being a sovereign individual.

You're the type of moron who doesn't even know what jury nullification is.

To you "real Americans" are fascists who torture.

I never call myself a hero, nor do I claim to be one...I did what I did just like I said so people like you could say what you want to...Again if it is not your thing then go some place else..then come back and see how it is..I was in Berlin, and saw the two different forms of government...the people in East Berlin were fearful of the Stasi, then never knew who the were talking to, even in their own families, they could not be sure if one of them worked for the Stasi,,so if you think I am brainwashed then your brainless...sad but that is how I see it.....and I would again put my 22 years in not for you but for those who appreciate what America is...

You didn't protect my freedoms. You joined for a good reason...but it was a lie. My friend joined after 9/11 to fight our enemies, 5 years later he wrote me "why am I in Iraq...I didn't sign up to fight people who never attacked us."

This is the bait and switch they pull. I knew they would. I told him not to join. You can't trust the state. Out of all the wars "too defend our freedoms" we fought 2 in 80 years that fit that description...and only for the first 2 months of Afghanistan. If you count the rest of Afghanistan, then 80 years of wars had minor justifiable interruptions surrounded by unjsutified acts of aggression by an empire bent on expansion of control and power. We overthrew more democracies than we installed in that time. We suppressed still more.

In a free society there would be a military...and I would serve in it...because in a free society there would be a market provided defense and soldiers would VOLINTARILY sign up for every war/humanitarian mission and donations, not extortion (tax) would fund it. When volunteers or donations ran out, so would the moral justification for the war/humanitarian mission. That would prevent lies leading us into wars of aggression mostly, avoid opinions of sociopath politicians leading us into war surrounding what is "humanitarian" or "defense" (which to them means nothing; just what fits their agendas).

The only reasons this wouldn't work is: 1. You believe the peopel wouldn't fund a war that was truly self defense/humanitrianian of their own free will, or 2. The soldiers wouldn't bravely volunteer for wars of true self defense/hunaitarianism.

I believe both are false. They would volunteer, they would donate. That's a free society. That's a system I'd trust with my life. That's a system I could be relatively sure wouldn't send me to murder people I have no problem with and who have no problem with me beyond my invasion and occupation of their land in an attempt to set up a puppet government for my native state.

But that's not reality right now...so I would suggest to anyone...do not fall for the BS. Do NOT join the military. They will send you to fight wars of aggression in over 90% of the cases. You will be forced into sick situations that make good boys into monsters. You will have to face the guilt to make that monster into man. Many find that too hard to face. Many kill themselves. Is that what we should suggest to kids in high school is a good career path? Is that "defending our freedoms"? I say NO, it's bunch of BS.

Tax (extortion) funds it. The blood and shattered lives of yound people drives it. The death of women and children are "collateral damage" on its treads. If no one joins, then they'd be forced to privatize it. Afterall, do you think the mafia in DC would go w/o their protection from the monsters around the world they've helped create, or worse, pissed off? Of course not.

But hey...why do any of that. Just keep joining, dying, funding, and killing. Because that's what we should accept. We should also accept drone surveillance of our people w/o probable cause, warrantless wiretaps, torture, self wrriten search warrants by federal agents, assassination of U.S. citizens w/o so much as judicial review...etc. What were we fighting for again? Oh yeah, "our freedoms".

The enemy is right here at home..it's called the state. No violence is needed to beat it...just honesty with the self. Join the 2nd Enlightenment...face that the state is not great. Statism and nationalism are mental disorders caused by massive brainwashing.

We are not a "global force for good" like the Navy commercials say...no matter how many kid's games (sports) they advertize on to get them good and early (like with our pledge).

I met a guy who grew up in socialist country (in America now)...he told me even there they never made kids say a blood oath to the state every morning. I was embarrased. He and I are anti-socialism...and totalitarianism of all kind. He sai what's happening here reminds of him of what he left 30 years ago. I told him my great grandparents that fled fascist Italy under Mussolini told me what to look out for...and it's happening right now, right here.

It's time to realize the Matrix (metaphor) is real...take the Red Pill. Wake up and start to fight the real enemy. Don't just be fuel for their state machine.

You still don't get it....but you never will. You believe in people like Obama who thinks he can walk on water, and the lies he tells. Again if your not happy here in America go some place else and tell me later what it is like....Go to Iran you won't last long. I never said every time we as a nation were involved in any conflict that all were just...Korea, is not over, there is cease fire, the conflict is still technically not over...N Korea invaded S Korea..the U.S. had troops stationed there at that time, the U.N. sanctioned the entrance of other nations to push out N Korea...Vietnam, started with the Gulf of Tonkin incident, we did not lose that Congress and the politicians did....Granada, we took out Castro's troops and gave the Island back to the people and we left, Iraq 1 the same we pushed the Iraqis out of Kuwait and we left. Afgahnistan. Bin Laden was there and we went after him pushed the Taliban out, sadly the Afgahnistan government is not doing it's part...that leave just one conflict,,Irag 2,,not the best choice ever made...we are leaving even though Obama tried to keep us there. Next your so opinionated it stinks,,,you will never see the truth...So you say your anti socialism,,who did you vote for OBAMA? He is a socialist, from start to end. Yur the one who needs to wake up..the stuff your spewing smells of communist ideology..

Rick, somehow you equate in your mind American leaders in the 1940's reluctantly using the bomb on Japan to end WWII with Iranian Muslim/Islamic wackos getting the bomb? This is not a personal attack, but, please, have another cup of coffee. Funny how so many of you can imagine conspiracy speculations about the US, Israel and Western Civilization in general, but can't see past your own noses when it comes to the rising caliphate in the Middle East. What is it now, 56 countries in the OIC that act with one brain? Your blind spot is that you believe that we can have zillions of Muslims, sharia, tolerance, multi-culturalism, political correctness, etc. with the Muslims AND you could still have the benefits of living in a civilized country. It doesn't work that way. Once the Muslims take over, there is no more civilized country, everything you hold dear is gone in an instant. But, hey, if you want to live under sharia in some Muslim hell hole, that's fine with me, I'll contribute to your one way ticket if you sign a pledge to never come back. If you hate your country, Israel, Western Civilization, well, work to change what you don't like, but don't make the mistake of believing that a** kissing Islam will bring you what you desire. But, personally, flawed as it is, and I'm a very vocal critic of the flaws of the US, I'd rather live in Western Civilization. Islam is no answer to anything except death.

Pro is America perfect? No, but it is far better then the fairytale you wish for. In your fairytale there is no one trying to take your "Individual Liberty" away from you and as we all know there are plenty of people all over the world willing to do that in a heart beat. Afghanistan, was created because we left last time without helping and unfortunately it really wouldn't have mattered. We stay there are mad we go they are mad. The US government does things that most of us will never know about, just like every government in the world does. So the only way you will find you fairytale will be to find a Island that no one else will ever find and stay there.

In WWII the bomb was dropped twice because the Japanese refused to surrender and didn't think we had another bomb. They where given chances to stop the second bomb. The Japanese had no problem in killing civilans of other countries. That said the lost of life from the bomb is still very unfortunate. I would also like to Thank all the veterans for the privileges that we all have because of there sacrifices.

Peace and freedom are won when people start to reason. To do that they have to have education and understanding, things that were taken away from us.

Peace trough war is the garbage we are fed to confuse and control our thinking. The same about our long gone freedom. We think we are free because the things we do are inconsequential and so the rulers of our country ignores us but, as soon as someone hears our words things happen. Like being declared a traitor or jailed because of "suspicious" activities.

The market does not self regulate. The market, without regulation, becomes a virulent cancer. That is what is happening to the US right now. The cancer is killing the nation and the rest of the world.

America is not a state...it was an idea...and it's dead. Look at what our damn government does around the world, and here to us. It's dead. I'm not afraid to admit it is the difference between me and those totally blinded by home team bias, nationalist brainwashing, and ingroup/outgroup psychology. Nostalgia for what is no more is not making it come back. Facing it's gone and starting to miss it is what brings it back....because then you'll start seeing reality and reacting rationally to it.

You call my ideas a fairytale...the fairytale is benign, benficient, and limited state. It's a necessary evil at best....and that evil needs to be made unnecessary.

The market does not self regulate. The market, without regulation, becomes a virulent cancer.

The only regulation that is required is to severely punish harm and fraud. All other regulation is antithetical to free markets, and always fails. No free market advocate has ever called for anything else.

BTW, if you think the USA has a free market I have a bridge to sell you. It's a highly regulated market with state coerced monopolies on specific services and goods...hence not a free market. Free markets have no barriers to entry, like regulations beyond harm and fraud or coerced monopolies. That's clearly the definition.

We have a mixed economy, Keynesianism, or Third Way economics. These are soft names for corporatism...fascist economics. Socialized losses and privatized gains...nowhere near free markets.

BTW...I nowhere said there is no defense in my favored society or no one trying to take my liberty....I just prefer non-monopolized services to handle them. Logically they tend have lower costs, better quality services, and more accountability.

Would you think food was impossible to provide if the state did it only? Or would you use logic to reason out that it could be provided by the markets w/o state monopoly?

Defense, law, police, fire service, healthcare, welfare, all have been provided in stateless societies. Anthropology and archeology proves this is no fairytale. Property existed before the advent of states. With all we know today, there is no logical reason this couldn't work today....if people would quit saying:

"Herp derp, I saw a monkey ride a bicycle. I never saw a person or bear ride a bicycle. Therefore only monkeys can ride bicycles."

That's your logic. It's illogical.

Afghanistan, was created because we left last time without helping and unfortunately it really wouldn't have mattered

No, Afghanistan was created by the English. So was most of that area. Iraq was invented out of thin air by England too. Their first King was crowned in London.

We weren't there at all...we funded Osama and his homies vs the Russians. But you haven't learned to stop meddling and interveing overseas. You keep wanting to intervene more or less....just stop the root problem...medddling to begin with! Russia was collapsing due to economics...we didn't need to have Afghani radicals fight them...later to be fought against by those same people!

In WWII the bomb was dropped twice because the Japanese refused to surrender and didn't think we had another bomb.

This is terrorism. Terrorizing their civilians (who we attacked) into forcing their govt to surrender...

Why then couldn't we drop the bomb offshore to show it's strength?

Because it was, like all terrorism, designed to wipe out as many civilians as possible for effect.

It was a war crime. We should of bit the bullet and invaded. BTW...we helped provoke Japan and Germany. Germany, we bankrupted along with all the other Allies in WW1 via the reparations they had to pay. Only way to pay was to print money, and that led to complete economic destruction and Hitler rising to power from a jail cell for an attempted coup. Japan? We embargo'd them and cut off their supply of oil. First we made them buy 90% of their oil from us by FORCE for years, then cut off the supply when they were in a war with China. If they lost the war with China they ceased to exist. We backed them against a wall. Hoover said in his memoirs he thought FDR purposefully ignored their pleas for a peaceful resolution because he wanted war. He even moved much of the important pieces of our fleet away from hawai'i before the attack, leading some to believe he was giving them an easy target. Whether that's true or not, he did move the fleet and did ignore their pleas for over two years for a peaceful solution. They begged for just any talks...he never responded. Hoover knew what was happening and lamented iti n his memoirs.

You believe in people like Obama who thinks he can walk on water, and the lies he tells.

You've lost your mind. I'm anti-Obama, anti-Romney, anti-DemoCrip, anti-RepubliBlood. I'm not trapped in your false dichotomy of the state. I'm not stuck in a symptom of psychosis (black and white fallacous thinking).

If you think I like Obama you're totally insane. I HATE all sociopaths who stand a chance to win the office. If anyone would of been worth a crap it was Ron Paul...but even he isn't perfect. But Obama? You heard me criticize everuything that warmonger did!

I'm smaller government than you and more free market that you. You are so brainwashed.

You see life through a totally false prism of false choices. There is no left or right...it's a an illusion of the state. You're all tax cattle headed into the slaughter house. You can't go back, but you can go left or right into the slaughter schutte....and you think that's a choice...LOL.

I bet you'll vote for Romney or Obama and actually believe their BS. You'll convince yourself they aren't sociopaths. I'll do no such thing. I know what kind of monsters they are.

Obama?!?!?...you could only deduce that from what I said by being completely brainwashed.

Anyone who says Iran is free and peaceful has been drinking the koolaide, and is ignorant of the facts that Hezbollah and Hamas are nothing more then the 5th column for Iran. I'm also old enough to remember when so-called Iranian students held our embassy workers hostage for more then a year; which by the way, Ahmdenijad was one of its leaders in that criminal action. They have stated on more then one occassion that their one ambition is to destroy the Jews in Israel. Only a fool wouldn't take them at their word and Israel is no fool.

It's very easy for us in America to armchair quarterback what we perceive as true and false in relation to Israel, but we have not had to live with the constant threats they have been under ever since they declared themselves a nation again in May of 1948. We just got a small taste of it on 9-11. They undergo very real threats everyday, and live with the idea that never again will they be led off to the gas chambers without a fight. They will take their enemies down just as Samson did, I can assure you.

Is it in our interest as a nation to stand with Israel against Iran and prevent the Iranian's from posessing a thermo-nuclear bomb? I hate war. I'm a vet who got sent off to one of this country's pointless wars, but this American would stand with them. They are one of our truest friends in the world.

God Bless the USA and God Bless Israel

Defense, law, police, fire service, healthcare, welfare, all have been provided in stateless societies. Anthropology and archeology proves this is no fairytale.

Yes, and the only people who had any of those protections were the one's that could afford to pay for them. There is a very good reason why we don't trust things that provide public safety, like police and fire services, to private companies.

Your idea of having private military's and citizens donate to send them to war is, frankly, laughable. Again, this will mean those with money having all the power and sending those military's to do THEIR bidding, not the countries.

Pro, you seem like an intelligent person so I am surprised by your apparent blind devotion to the "free market." I understand what you are saying and agree in some respects and disagree in others. Ultimately, at least in my estimation, much of it comes down to choices between the lesser of two evils. That leads me to question, what are the better, or less evil, nations to which you are considering moving?

Pro,I agree with most of what you say,but without regulations we all would be dead by now from lead poison,mercury,arsonic,rat fecis,and etc.

A capatilist will sell the rope to hang himself,the so-called free market has to be regulated,by the way Obama,Bush Clinton or any other president do not rule the US.

If you really believe that a government of a country under Sharia Law pays for the upkeep of any other religions buildings I have A bridge to sell you.

"Actually, Iran is pretty much a free and peaceful state" Are you talking about the same country who verbally stated israel should be wiped off the planet and the United States imperial dogs should all be executed?? What about the protesters who disappeared at the last "election"??

Pull your head out of the sand or spend a month there labeled American if you are not one of them. Plan on a free fingernail removal when you get accused of being a "spy"..........

You must be related to Armajenidad.

I wouldn't call them peaceful...but they haven't attacked another nation in centuries. Iraq attacked them in the Iran/Iraq war. We funded, backed, and sold arms to Iraq at the time.

They attack other countries by supplying terrorists with weapons.

US and Israeli intelligence agencies
mostly agree that Iran has not restarted its development of a nuclear bomb, the
New York Times reported on Saturday.

According to the report, the assessment among top US officials is that Iran has
not yet decided to pursue a nuclear weapon, a conclusion which was established
based on intelligence analyses.

Israel - while seeing an existential threat in Iran's possible pursuit of a
nuclear bomb - mostly agrees with those assessments, a US intelligence official
speaking on the condition of anonymity told the Times.

But a growing number of analysts, including
Israelis, are now saying openly that Israel’s warnings are at least partly a
disinformation campaign. (Americans such as those on the forums believe the Israeli propaganda, as though it were gospel.)

The skeptics include
Martin van Creveld, Israel’s preeminent military historian and theorist, who
said in an interview that Israel could do some damage to the Iranian program
but could not knock it out.

“I would not be surprised if there was a strong element of political theater” to the Israeli threats,
he said.

Barry Rubin, an
Israeli expert on terrorism and international affairs, described the notion
that Israel would attack Iran as “an absurd idea” and concluded: “It isn’t
going to happen.”

“Their people ask very hard questions, but Mossad does not disagree with the US
on the weapons program,” the Times quoted the official as saying.

Seven2Seven he never said anything about Americans being free there. He said those in the Islamic religion and he also stated that Iran resists the influence of the west which they do.So why would you even say try living there as an American. You are the foreigner and they already don't trust us so why would you even persecute yourself to what could happen by you being there.

They attack other countries by supplying terrorists with weapons.

And so do we...lets not start listing all the death squads (cough cough freedom fighters) we've funded.

Bobming that scientist's car was an act of terrorism...and either we did it, or we funded it (we give foreign aid to Israel).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The USA supply more terrorists than and country in the world. They are called freedom fighters! Who's freedim are they fighting for? Big business?

Seven2Seven, the "wipe Israel off the map, face of the earth, or whatever" quote is urban legend and part of the propaganda machine to condition us to hate Iran.

So if and when the US federal government takes their authoritarian military empire to war with Iran, the people will be supportive. Kind of like the Creel Committe during WW1.

It's kind of like the fascist seatbelt checkpoints in the US now. It's going to condition the police and the people for checkpoints in the future, and maybe even house to house searches.

ProIndividual, you have some perverted sense. #1. Of course we embargoed Germany and Japan in the 1930's/40's. Lets see, Germany is invading all it's neighbors including Russia. Japan was buying oil from us and yes we cut the off why, they invaded China, the Philippines, and many other countries. So what? should we allow Hitler and Japan to rule the world through force?

Your a piece of work, comparing the US role with Iran or saying it is our fault that we started the war withGermany or Japan. Perhaps if you decided not to do business with B of A would they send someone to murder your family because you stopped doing business with them?

When I read your post, it disgusts me that you have such a low view of the USA. Why don't you go live in Iran? Don't grace us here with your idiotic lodgic!

It never ceases to amaze me whenever I see people who undoubtedly call themselves "progressive" say that a despotic, racist, sexist, homophobic, Holocaust-denying theocracy is superior to a Western liberal democracy.

Seven2Seven, the "wipe Israel off the map, face of the earth, or whatever" quote is urban legend and part of the propaganda machine to condition us to hate Iran.

no they just want to "erase it from the pages of history", which means eliminate it and erase all reference to it

kind of like they are doing with the holocaust, which amhanutjob also denies happened

btw, "wipe Israel off the map" was the translation supplied by the Iranian news agency

further, far more recent statements by the current supreme leader indicate a desire to eliminate Israel completely too

They waterboarded him while in a prison on an island.

Amen

Last I checked capitalism is a form of economics, not a religion. But thanks for the hyperbole.

BTW, don't conflate this state dependent version of markets to free markets...there is nothing free about this statist market system.

Anti-capitalism is far more authoritarian, FWIW, than free market anarchism. If it's authoritarianism you hate, then embrace free markets, as when a state is ended or falls it's markets that are logically unleashed via a lack of de facto or de jure regulation. If we're lucky, even roads, police, fire service, mail, medicine, defense, and law are privatized or voluntarily communally funded via donation and user fee.

Massachusetts Anarchist, Did this happen to you ? Where did this come from ..

Put your alumium foil hat back on and all will be well. Can you say delusional?

MassAnarchy = Does not like to or does not pay Taxes.........The IRS will git you boy :)

Your retarded. Capitalism is not a religion, it is economics. Smart economics.

The IRS are extortionists, plain and simple. If any other individual or institution in society extorted you and called it "tax", you'd still call it extortion.

The state is a mafia that extorts (taxes) on the threat of kidnapping (prison). If you resist the kidnapping by a hired thug (a poor cop ordered to get you), you'll be shot (murdered). That's reality.

BTW, go thank market anarchist Lysander Spooner for your home delivery service in mail...he pioneered it before the state outlawed competition in first class mail via court decsion (because Lysander was driving the stamp price down too far for them to keep up with him).

The irony is, Lysander was a Boston anarchist...and a market advocate and entrpeneur. The OP is confused utterly as to the tradition of Massachusetts anarchism.

A religion is nothing more than a system of ideals espoused by a group that is accepted without question. That's what makes religion a "faith." In a theocracy, everything is seen as ultimately being "good" for people even if many people suffer under its precepts. Capitalism in the US certainly falls into that category. No one questions personal property or the profit motive. No one questions the economic servitude of most of the population. In the US, everyone is expected to subordinate themselves to the practices of capitalism, just as in an orthodox theocracy, everyone is expected to subordinate themselves to religious dicatates. If you don't, then you are shunned and punished by both the authorities and your neighbors because you are considered immoral and subversive. If you say "I don't believe in money," Americans will look at you with the same uncomprending stare as a fundamentalist would hear "I don't believe in god." In both instances, the listener will think you a fool and pity you because you simply "don't understand" an absolute truth.

If you don't believe in money they should look at you like you're stupid...because w/o that medium of exchange the economy couldn't "make change" for trades in sales or purchases. Money can be anything; it's just a medium of exchange. If you return to barter economics you have no way to "make change", and therefore must find third, fourth, and fifth parties to make fair and exact trades with others. It's endlessly inefficient, and would subject most everyone to abject poverty by shrinking the amount of total peaceful voluntary transactions (the economy) that could take place in a given amount of time. Jobs would be lost, hunger would prevail, and serfdom would re-emerge.

Why would anyone want to take a 20,000 years step backwards in economics so we can all suffer MORE?

Now, if you mean end the FED so we can obliterate the monopoly on capital and interest rates, fractional banking fraud, and anything less than 100% deposit limits on banks...then fine. But eliminate money? That's asking people to starve to death and for a major retraction for the economy as a whole.

Mass. Anarchist -

If you don't believe in money, don't get a job. But then, don't expect someone else's money to keep you alive. That's still believing in money.

And most responders to Massachusetts Anarchist proved the point made in the original comment. Calling the poster delusional and retarded. It's funny that newsvine didn't censor or suspend his post.

He is delusonal..he's advocating things that return us to pre-agricultural economics. Is wanting society to be hunter-gatherers as a viable "solution" to markets a non-deluded ideal? Of course not. Too many anarchists confuse Marxism for anarchism. They aren't even remotely related. Marx thought we had to make the state larger and more totalitarian, but preserve it, to become anarchic. That's like suggesting we reach totalitarianism by making government smaller. Talk about illogical! I blame Chomsky.

The Boston anarchists wanted to end the monopoly on capital held by the state, ie central banking monopolies (today, the federal reserve)

"Your retarded. Capitalism is not a religion, it is economics. Smart economics"

Capitalism in its current form is based on one group using or taking advantage of another group like workers or laborers. The whole idea is to get one group or person to agree to work for less then their fair share or percentage. Once one person agrees to work for less others are forced to work for less too. If only a worker doing the same job was paid the same amount for working one hour in every single country, if only.

Therefore your "smart" economics only works on retarded people that agree to work for less. It is why capitalism beats out communism. They have computer sims that has been ran numerous times that show the same thing. The best strategy is to treat each other like you would have other people treat you. That is unless you can convince one group "slaves" to give up or lose to the winning "master" group. Look up "Tit for Tat" and the prisoner's dilemma.

Why is it the "weak" band together against the "strong" any time a "threat" to our survival is perceived? Why did many countries of the world fight against Hitler? He was perceived as a threat is why ($ too). Why are there all these laws about murder or beating someone up again if survival of the fittest is what you really want? I have some billionaires to visit if that is the case, and they would not be billionaires for long I guarantee.

Oh yeah before I got sidetracked on the economy I just wanted to comment on the killing of the spy; great another human dead, and no forgiveness...

Laughably stupid.

Capitalism in its current form is based on one group using or taking advantage of another group like workers or laborers. The whole idea is to get one group or person to agree to work for less then their fair share or percentage.

More Marxist nonsense. The "exploitation" factor in his math relied on the Labor Theory of Value being accurate...which we today know it wasn't. Marginalism (or marginal utility) is how value is derived. This is the difference largely between classical economics, neoclassical economics, and modern economics. Occum's Razor shows in any debate between LTV and Marginalism that marginalism arrives at the same conclusions of value in less mathematical steps. Therefore, Marginalism is correct logically.

There is no exploitation factor. Value is added by all parties. Wages are not paid by companies or "bosses"....all taxes and wages are paid for by consumers at the point of sale, as all those overhead costs are included in the final sale price.

If you invest 100K to start a widget making business, your workers do not lose that money if you fail...you solely lose, as their jobs wouldn't have existed if not for your risk taking investment. If you need 20k to live a year, and you sell 20k widgets a year for $1 each, then logically your business fails as you cannot pay wages or taxes. So, if the taxes are 50 cents a widget, and 50 cents per widget is labor expense, the price at sale will be logically $2 a widget. You'll make 40k a year, but pay out 10k in wages and 10k in taxes. The consumer paid for all wages and labor. To raise wages and labor costs make the consumers poorer. Since the workers are also consumers, if all businesses raised wages (or taxes on those businesses), logically the entire population of workers would get POORER by way of raised prices. As the comapny grows, so does the re-investment (risk) of your profits into technology (tools) that increase productivity. Next year you make $1.75 widgets, selling 40,000 widgets. So you made 70K. BUT, you paid 50 cent in taxes per widget (20k), and 25 cents in wages (20k). This leaves you with 30k in profit. You risked initially 100k and got back 20k, and now risked some more money and got 10k extra to pay for it. So you get a slightly increased standard of living, and so do your workers (the pool of cash for them to split doubled, even though the percentage of labor costs decreased due to re-investment). Now you probably hired a few more people, so they actually didn't double their incomes...but what is clear is the process by which workers get richer..

...owners risk capital for which only they can lose if it goes bad. They create jobs for those who work for them in these risky ventures. Because those jobs never would of existed without the risk, they worker stands to gain but never lose. Once the profits come back, profit is re-invested to increase productivity and lower the cost of production. THIS DIRECTLY is tied to total real (accounted for inflation) compensation (wages+benefits). So, profits lead to higher standards of living for both oweners and workers...but most importantly workers. Because workers are also consumers, their marginal utility in capital is reduced, and this spurs consumption. This drives more profits, and the process starts all over again.

This is how markets work, and why workers have a higher standard of living in markets. We make 6 times what our great great grandparents made in the USA for the exact same amount of labor and labor hours. This is due to technology in production. This tech is due to those who know what they are doing (the successful owners) allocating that accumulated capital wisely...something "experts" and bereaucrats can never do when capital is assumulated via tax and allocated via bereaucracy.

Total real compensation mirroed producitvity per manhour until the tech revolution in society...now it has diverged...but that's because the machines are owned by owners, not workers. But again, the compensation is still going up...slowly. But there ar two ways to get richer or have higher standards of living: higher total real compensation or lower prices.

Since the total real compensation has leveled out somewhat, the productivity has skyrocketed with less and less human labor...which has led to falling prices (except where inflation from government debasement of the currency has occured in bailouts, stimulus, and printing or digitally creating capital via the central bank to fund defecit spending that borrowing won't cover). But these mostly falling prices have led to increased standards of living until 2008 (when the massive money printing started to cause inflation). If compensation goes up, or prices fall, or both, you get richer.

But as the state continues to debase the money, the prices rise. Since the technological automation revolution is causing slower growth in compensation we have to make a choice: either ban all new tech (yeah right, that's be retarded and shoot ourselves in the foot), or you can abolish the central bank (or at least stop debasing the currency).

Now you understand there is no exploitation. Marx was wrong. His math was way off. No one is making you work for less than your actua llabor is worth...the consumer will only pay so much, and whatever is paid above costs of production and taxes goes into a pool that you and the employer split. Since he takes all the risks, he deserves what he gets. Since you won't work for less than your best opportunity, you deserve what you get and won't take less in most cases. You may always FEEL underpaid...but unless there is another job offering you more, you're not underpaid. You tend toward complaint as a human, like we all do, but you are only complaining. In reality you can only compare one opportunity to another...there are no infinite opportunities. If you cannot show a better opportunity, they you are being paid the most possible, and therefore exactly what you're labor is worth. Anything else is whining BS.

If you don't believe in money they should look at you like you're stupid...because w/o that medium of exchange the economy couldn't "make change" for trades in sales or purchases. Money can be anything; it's just a medium of exchange. If you return to barter economics you have no way to "make change", and therefore must find third, fourth, and fifth parties to make fair and exact trades with others. It's endlessly inefficient, and would subject most everyone to abject poverty by shrinking the amount of total peaceful voluntary transactions (the economy) that could take place in a given amount of time. Jobs would be lost, hunger would prevail, and serfdom would re-emerge.

Why would anyone want to take a 20,000 years step backwards in economics so we can all suffer MORE?

So let me get this straight. You agree with the principle of producing a single currency, which means that we must have some means of producing this currency. It can't be private entity's, because that would lead to more than 1 kind of currency and that would be inefficient. So that leaves.... err, the state. Either way, you are giving that control over to someone else. In that case, barter would best fit your idea of not being under the control of any one single entity?

Now you understand there is no exploitation. Marx was wrong. His math was way off. No one is making you work for less than your actua llabor is worth...the consumer will only pay so much, and whatever is paid above costs of production and taxes goes into a pool that you and the employer split. Since he takes all the risks, he deserves what he gets. Since you won't work for less than your best opportunity, you deserve what you get and won't take less in most cases. You may always FEEL underpaid...but unless there is another job offering you more, you're not underpaid. You tend toward complaint as a human, like we all do, but you are only complaining. In reality you can only compare one opportunity to another...there are no infinite opportunities. If you cannot show a better opportunity, they you are being paid the most possible, and therefore exactly what you're labor is worth. Anything else is whining BS.

This only really makes sense if you believe in full employment. But free market capitalists do not. Free market capitalists need there to be unemployment because when there isn't a job for everyone the employer can pit people against one another to get the best deal possible for them, at the expense of everyone else. They will say it maximizes competition and productivity, but what it also does is it drives the wages down, and further down, as those people begin to accept whatever they can get as very little is better than nothing. If there was a job for everyone then the person would not have to accept what the employer is willing to give them as there would be another job opening somewhere else. The power shifts and the employers are the ones competing against each other.

This would be why/how unions were created, because people needed to do something (band together to show solidarity) to stop employers taking advantage of them. In reality, we need something of a middle ground.

We're in America, my friend. Of course people are that dumb, with our worthless excuse for an education system. That, and the media and politicians of both sides have done a rather nice job at making sure that in America, the simple, the ignorant, and the bigoted are championed. Brainwashing a la nationalism is also a part of it...

I do? Proindividual, So you are the judge, jury and hangman? Show us your evidence?

nice try there galwayboy, did you get your information from a radical islamic website or a white power site? the theories behind this "sayanem" are so stupid it has to be from one of those sources. so many lies, so many distortions, do you wear a tin foil hat too?

Wow galwayboy, you sound just like another bigot and your renowned for knowing who is a Mossad agent? So you want to be the judge, jury and executioner too?

It's not surprising that Iran doesn't want "inspectors" sifting through their country. The UN is an instrument of Western powers. It was specifically set up that way. Why do you think a few countries get "veto power" over what a majority of the world might want. Either directly, or indirectly from their reports, these inspectors are assembling a list of assets for the West to target if they decide to attack militarily. No country volutarily lets foreign agents waltz through their country with carte blanche to go anywhere and take photos of whatever they wish. The "inspection" dispute is just a propaganda tool, as it was in Iraq prior to the war. It's just a way for us to paint Iran as the "bad guy." Actually, all of this hyperbole about nuclear weapons is ironic. Iran is certainly seeking nuclear weapons. Why wouldn't they? There is a well-established precedent that nations possessing deployable nuclear weapons are not attacked and invaded. Iran certainly saw what happened next-door in Iraq. Why wouldn't they take steps to protect themselves from foreign aggression? To do otherwise would be to abrogate the first responsibility a government has to its people - protection of their sovereign rights.

To accept the idea that I need nukes to prevent the US from invading is primitive... its in the policies of the US that we will utilize nuclear weapons on ANY country that utilizes them against us. So, we invade for whatever reason, they use nukes, we nuke them back until the whole country is desolate.

Im not arguing that the US used the atomic bomb... it in fact stopped the japanese very quickly in its tracks and caused the fall of Japan to the World War. Had that not been done, how many servicemen would we have lost? How many ships, planes, trade routes and other forms of connection with allies would have been destroyed? IT may have been inappropriate for the US to use the Atomic Bomb then, but one thing that has been learned, is that the US changed its role and no longer has used its nuclear asset against any other fight since.

I cannot say that would be the case for Iran or any other nuclear holding country. Lets just look at Russia and their complaint about the Missile Defense System developed in Europe. We are developing weapons to shoot down their missiles. We are not putting missiles over there to take over Russia. Im just saying....

Icepick, just to correct a persistent historical inaccuracy:

The allies and Japan had no formal diplomatic relations during the war, so communications were carried out through third parties. As the allies closed in on the island of Japan, the Japanese were suing for peace through these channels in order to avoid total destruction of their country. The allies delayed answering the Japanese because they wanted to see what the atomic bomb would do. The atom bomb was never intended to be used against the Japanese. It was specifically designed to be used against Germany, but Germany surrendered before it could be used. The allies were not about to let Japan do the same thing. There were few considerations of civilian deaths. The Japanese were considered to be an irredeemable aggressive race that was inferior to the Europeans. As the war's end neared, there were plans made in the US to exterminate the Japanese as a people although these plans were never carried out. All of this information is available through official government documents if you want to research it yourself and confirm its accuracy.

Game theory mathematics prove that nukes cause nonviolent results in disputes. It's not up for debate; nukes cause nations to be not invaded by us, and vice versa. It's not about using them, it's about the deterent factor in the math.

Hey Keith, wake up! Iran has been letting the inspectors in for years. They are not in any way, violating any agreements. Iran signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty, unlike Israel, a county that defies the rest of the world. By signing the treaty, Iran subjects themselves to the inspections.

The US has one set of rules for it's enemies and the enemies of it's friends and another set of rules for itself and our alledged friends. We attacked Iraq on trumped up charges of WMD and a nuclear weapons program, based on forged Niger documents. We had no hard evidence and Iraq had never attacked the US.

We let Israel attack Lebanon, a country that we supposedly support, which had no ability to defend themselves from massive air strikes on its cities and towns.

If a country attacked Israel, we would be screaming to the high heavens and launching strikes at the offending nation within hours. In the 50s, Russia invaded Hungary and the US was indignantly chastizing Russia, but now its OK for us to do the same things. If you don't agree, you are not patriotic. Look how the right wingers chastised Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan, who were both right. The Iraq war was a mistake of epic proportions.

I am glad Iran caught and dealt with the Israeli assassin. We should have executed Pollard, instead of just locking him up. The AIPAC spies and Larry Franklin should have been dealt with in a much harsher way.

K9IcePick, If Russia were to go back to Cuba and set up the same missle defense against us we would threaten war in a second. We have the right to set up defenses against them near their home but they can't do the same? Come on now. this is the reason we are losing influence in the world and regardless of what you may think are setting ourselves up for a war we can't win. We make alot of threats but the world no longer fears our threats and Afghanistan is a good example of that.

Keith you could very well be talking about the US. When we learn to deal with our country and stop poking around where we don't belong the rest of the world may trust us again. Our government and the media rule us by fear by stating that we have stop Iran now or they will attack us in x amount of years. That simply isn't always the case. Iran knows very well what would happen if they did attack. The things we hear now are no different than the propaganda we heard during the cold war. Plus we are now the biggest threat to world peace. We now do the exact things Russia did years ago when the rest of the world was against them. Now we are them and will find out soon what our arrogance will cause.

Maybe waterboarding? lol

They remember as they employ cognitive dissonance without regard to logic or ethics.

The US is no better. We live here and we can't believe anything the government says.

I think it would be MUCH better if the US actually executed spies. I believe that's why the feds still keep the death penalty.

Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?

LOL....No doubt

Winnnnaaarrrrr!!!!!

Kasey no one points out the fact that Iran has to big allies, Russia and China. The sanctions won't do anything. they are there to make the american public think they are working.