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Subscribe to RSSIn Greece, a senior judge is to be put in charge of a caretaker government to run the country until a new General Election on June 17. Questions are growing over whether the country's finances will last that long. Hundreds of millions of euros have been withdrawn from Greek banks in recent days over fears of a departure from the euro - and return to a devalued drachma. Jonathan Rugman, Channel Four Europe reports.
Updated at 12:05 p.m. ET: Political leaders in Athens were due to discuss an emergency government Wednesday to deal with a possible run on banks as it emerged Greeks withdrew almost $900 million in a single day, fearing their country could crash out of the euro currency by the end of the week.
An interim government would take the country through to new elections on June 17, triggered by the collapse on Tuesday of talks to form a coalition between winners of the inconclusive May 6 election.
Greeks are withdrawing euros from banks, apparently afraid of the prospect of rapid devaluation if the country leaves the European single currency and returns to the drachma.
President Karolos Papoulias warned of “great fear that could develop into a panic,” the minutes of Papoulias' negotiations with political leaders showed, according to Reuters.
The minutes also reveal Papoulias was warned by George Provopoulos, head of the country’s central bank, that savers withdrew at least 700 million euros ($894 million) on Monday, Reuters said.
"Withdrawals and outflows by 4:00 p.m. when I called him exceeded 600 million euros and reached 700 million euros," the president said according to the minutes of the meeting. "He expects total outflows of about 800 million euros."
The country's economy is in a meltdown, raising fears that Greece will exit the Euro Zone completely and default on its huge pile of debt. NBC's Brian Williams reports.
Several banking sources told Reuters similar amounts had also been withdrawn on Tuesday. Nevertheless, there was no sign of panic or queues at bank branches in Athens on Wednesday. Bankers dismissed suggestions that a bank run was looming. A senior executive at a large Greek bank told Reuters: "There is no bank run, no queues or panic. The situation is better than I expected. The amount of deposit withdrawals the president mentioned referred to three days, not one."
Still, some were taking no risks. Jenny P., an Athens private medical clinic receptionist originally from Ohio, told msnbc.com she had withdrawn 85 per cent of "what's left" in her bank account.
"We could have a new currency in a couple of days and nobody knows for sure what will happen," she said. "There are no lines to withdraw money, but maybe that's because many Greeks have precious little left in the bank. Many have been surviving on [$500] 400 euros a month, which has to cover tax, bills, food and medical costs."
She said she was planning to return to the United States amid the economic turmoil which has left her Greek husband unemployed. "It is hard to see what the future will be here," she said.
Greeks have already been withdrawing their savings from banks at a sharp clip - nearly a third of bank deposits were withdrawn between January 2010 and March 2012, reducing total Greek household and business deposits to 165 billion euros.
A senior bank executive said there had been withdrawals in recent days but there was no sign yet of a panic, as had happened in April 2010 when eight billion euros were withdrawn just before Greece obtained its first foreign bailout.
The political vacuum in Greece has hampered the country’s chances of making the budget cuts required by the European bailout deal. Without more austerity measures, the flow of bailout money will dry up, raising the prospect of a euro exit with all its wider ramifications.
Yannis Behrakis / Reuters
Two men withdraw money from an ATM in central Athens May 16, 2012.
The likelihood of a Greek exit from the euro – dubbed the "Grexit" by commentators – is now so high that even political leaders committed to avoid it admit preparations are under way.
Asked in an interview whether Greece could leave the euro zone, IMF director Christine Lagarde replied: "We certainly don't hope so, from the IMF point of view ... but we have to be technically prepared for anything".
Will there be a run on Greek banks?
A Twitter image shared by economics blogger Tyler Durden, posted on UK website Zero Hedge, showed what appeared to lines outside ATMs in Greece, although it was impossible to verify where the picture was taken or if lines were longer than normal.
Reuters reported early Wednesday that there has “so far been no sign” of lines at banks in Athens, despite the likelihood that an exit from the euro would see a dramatic devaluation in of Greek currency.
CNBC’s John Carney raised the prospect of reduced limits on ATM withdrawals, citing a calculation by London analysts Capital Economics that if every working-age Greek withdrew the maximum permitted ATM amount of 300 euros a day, every single deposit of Greek households would be gone within 61 days.
“So the controls put in place in advance of an exit from the euro would have to include not only limits on moving funds abroad, but limiting withdrawals from ATMs and possibly declaring a bank holiday,” Carney wrote.
In practice, however, any Greeks lucky enough to possess any savings have already taken the precaution of withdrawing them from banks.
“Over the last two years Greeks withdrew approximately 70 billion euros from their bank accounts, an amount equivalent to approximately 35 percent of Greek GDP,” Dr Michael Arghyrou, senior economics lecturer at Cardiff Business School in Wales told msnbc.com.
“This is a negative demand shock of enormous proportions and with increased uncertainty this trend will almost certainly accelerate. So yes, we will almost certainly see more deposits withdrawals over the next few days, I just hope is that they will not be so large as to lead to a full-blown bank run.”
How likely is ‘Grexit’? Are drachma notes being printed?
A year ago, it was nearly impossible to get officials and political leaders to talk about the possibility of Greece leaving the eurozone. Now it appears to be an open secret.
Yorgos Karahalis / Reuters
A man makes his way past a replica of a one drachma coin outside the Athens Town Hall May 15, 2012.
Ireland's central bank chief and European Central Bank policymaker, Patrick Honohan, signaled on Sunday that a Greek exit might not be as painful as previously thought.
"Technically, it can be managed," he told reporters. "It would be a knock to the confidence for the euro area as a whole ... It is not necessarily fatal, but it is not attractive."
The tone from the European Commission, the EU's executive, has shifted too.
On Monday, spokeswoman Pia Ahrenhilde-Hansen said: “We wish Greece will remain in the euro and we hope Greece will remain in the euro ... but it must respect its commitments. Greece has its future in its own hands and it is really up to Greece to see what the response should be.”
Asked about contingencies, she did not rule them out.
Reuters quoted one European Commission official saying: "Clearly, the future of Greece is in the Eurozone. We are working on that. The 16 other governments in the Eurozone really are at the end of their patience with Greece. There isn't room or any willingness to move. The decisions are really in Athens' hands. But it doesn't look good."
However, the official response remains that a Greek exit is not being considered.
In an interview with NBC News on Wednesday, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, said: "I have the will, the determination, to keep Greece in the Eurozone. I think it will be good for Greece and good for all of us. We want Greece to stay in the Eurozone."
Some commentators have pointed to a 13 percent rise in the share value of British firm De La Rue, which is the world’s largest currency printer, amid speculation it is best placed to pick up the contract for issuing new versions of the drachma, the Greek currency phased out in 2002.
It has remained tight-lipped on whether it is working for the Greek government, but in the meantime an interim solution has been mooted in which existing euro notes would be converted into drachmas by being endorsed with an official stamp.
Would a 'Grexit' be so bad? If so, what are the alternatives?
Lagarde said a Greek exit from the Eurozone would “have consequences on growth… consequences on trade and…consequences on financial markets “. She added: “You can certainly assume it would be quite messy."
Global financial institutions have a $536 million exposure to Greek debt, according to the latest figures from the International Monetary Fund, although almost all is borne by France, Germany and other key European economies.
The Institute of International Finance has estimated that the global cost of a Greek exit could hit $1.2 trillion, according to the Daily Telegraph in London. When Argentina defaulted in 2001, foreign debtors lost around 70 percent of their investments, it said.
The Telegraph said a report in Germany’s Wirtschaft Woche magazine forecast that a Grexit would cost the Eurozone governments alone $300 billion, pushing the whole European economy – which narrowly avoided entering recession on Tuesday by recording exactly zero quarterly growth - into a crisis not seen since the 1930s.
Many are looking at the possibility that Athens issues IOUs to meet salaries and key service bills for a fixed period, much in the way California did during its budget crunch in 2009 when it issued 'registered warrants' with a coupon in place of dollar salaries and which banks then accepted for cash.
Much hinges on whether the European Central Bank would allow the Greek central bank to accept such IOUs and there's little clarity on those hypotheticals.
However, strategists believe any Greek government IOUs would quickly act as a proxy for a new drachma and exchange values against the euro would mostly likely plummet in practice as people rushed to cash out - offering Greeks a glimpse of the shock of devaluation in a euro-ised economy with euro-denominated debts.
"I'm really not sure Greece could survive for very long if external money was cut off," said Darren Williams, economist at fund manager AllianceBernstein. "But what an experience of IOUs may do rather quickly is bring home to the average Greek citizen just how much more difficult a place it is outside the bailout programme and outside the euro."
What would happen to the euro?
Besides the huge liabilities, there is the risk that a Greek exit from the euro would set a precedent for the possible exit of other weakened economies including Spain and Portugal.
"Opening up the Pandora's box of exit means deposit risk across the periphery,” an RBS analyst told Reuters.
Jan Randolph, head of sovereign risk, IHS Global Insight, told the BBC: “It would be difficult for the [European Central Bank] to keep banks afloat. The Greek banking sector would collapse as well. What happens next is a political question. European nations would probably not accept another Western European country descending into chaos and collapse.”
What is the political future for Greece?
Rampant inflation, civil unrest and even a return to dictatorship could be on the cards, analysts warn.
Arghyrou told msnbc.com: “There will be no credit for Greek banks or the Greek state. That could mean a shortage of basic commodities, like oil or medicine or even foodstuffs.
The country would end up in a volatile period. There would be institutional weakness. The worst case scenario would be a social and economic breakdown, perhaps even leading to a totalitarian regime.”
Henry Wilkinson, head of analysis at the Risk Advisory Group, said: "We are entering into unknown territory and it remains profoundly unclear what actually will happen. I wouldn't overstate it, but I think the big concern out of all of this is that in times of great uncertainty and hardship, more extreme parties tend to find greater resonance with their message."
Roger White, an American private tutor who moved back to the United States from Greece three weeks ago to escape the economic crisis, told msnbc.com: "I see violence on the Greek horizon. Will the Greeks continue to withdraw their savings? Yes, for as long as they can. Then, the government will intervene with limits on withdrawals and other controls. Then, Greeks will protest in the streets, light banks afire, smash bank windows and rip out ATMs.
"Oddly, I can say that in many ways my Greek experience gave me wonderful opportunities. Nonetheless, my epiphany came when Greece's economic collapse and the government's implosion revealed just how reliant on the government we are, and just how vulnerable to government mismanagement we are."
Reuters contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
I'm an American living in Greece with my husband. We went to the bank yesterday and withdrew all our money. Better safe than sorry. I hope we can get out of here before all hell breaks loose.
Good luck to you and your husband. Be safe.
Jenny, good luck. Would you be willing to talk about your situation with us? alastair.jamieson AT msnbc.com Thank you!
Yes, good luck to you Jenny.
The U.S. is at the tipping point also. I don't have the answer but OMG - changes are definitely on the horizon.
And everyone laughs at the preppers.
Good luck to all of us!
If you withdrew your cash welcome to being part of the herd mentality.
Jeff, the problem with a bank run, is if you're last in line you get squat. So you can't blame any particular person involved. Bank runs are the achilles heel of banks.
God bless you and your family.... hope you get home safely...
This is a problem at MSNBC.... How come the situation in Greece is not Top news.... but GERMAN PIRATE DAY?...... This will be Obama's end of run. This administration policies may have had nothing to do with it but as American economy is "dragged down" by EU's woes... this will dog him till November.. On top of LeGiBiT issues that POTUS decided was more important to make a stance on has FRACTURED the Black community.... he inadvertently re-injected "malaise" and the much of the Black vote will not go to Romney but will just stay home...... Prayers for Greece.... a moment do silence for POTUS.
Jeff,
You say that as though you think it's a bad thing. What if the herd is right? Withdrawing funds in the form of Euros before the Greeks bail and the banks issue Drachmae, which will be useless anywhere outside of Greece, seems prudent to me. Get your Loonies now, before the Canadians shut their border.
So Jeff, I guess you would let your money sit in a Greek Bank ready to default? Guess your part of the "in the fog crowd"? What???, my ATM does not work anymore....Time to bail Jenny, Good Luck!!
Jenny:
Yes, get out!!! My daughter and I left Greece three weeks ago - after twenty years in Thessaloniki. This is a matter of survival. We were so destitute that we asked the Consulate to assist us with a government repatriation loan. Without Uncle Sam's help, I might have exited Greece via our fifth floor balcony.
Painfully, I had to leave my wonderful Greek wife behind because of visa requirements coupled with the fact I did not have the money for a permanent residence visa for residence in the U.S. . We will find a way and work it out.
Leave. Just do it! I know Greeks are incredibly proud of and loyal to their country, but this is a matter of survival.
Take my advice: Leave before it is too late!
Best of luck! O Theos enai megalos!!
guydownsouth - (whispering) I think Jeff is a banker, ssshhhh.
This is the end result of a government gone wild running up debt. It will happen here in the US very soon. Guns and ammo will be worth their weight in gold. I thank God I'm not in a major urban center. Hell, I can just walk a mile and be in the Adirondack Park.
Best of luck to you and to the Greeks.
Smart move, Greek people... do not trust the banks or the bankers. Their only aim is to enslave everybody in their web of usury.
all hell will break lose when the derivatives and side bets Wall Street made on top of Greece's debt disappears as Greece declares bankruptcy.
I do not know for sure, but I would gander that just as with the housing bubble, the total losses will exceed the amount wiped out in bankruptcy 10 fold (if not more)...
..even if Greece gets out of the euro zone right now, it can still re-join anytime. But staying the course, though hard, may be the best solution.
Jeff, no one should have to voluntarily leave their money in peril by keeping it in a bad bank; or sacrifice their own hard earned dollars in the name of "the common good". Call it what you will, but sometimes it's the smartest thing to do if the system is headed to the crapper. And a systemic problem is not fixed by simply throwing more cash at it, until the people aren't left with anything to live on....
The bankers certainly wouldn't sacrifice themselves; the depositors shouldn't have to eiher.....
DrowningGrover, that is precisely what could happen; though yes there tends to be consequences... The people in the IMF keep saying they'll have to honor their committments, but if they went the route many South American countries took, they defaulted.... The one caveat here, even if they did this, withdrew from the Eurozone, and didn't pay back any of their debts now; they'd still need to work out their own economy and future; for a possible re-pay after economic growth would leave them strong enough.... But without fixing the problems in their economy; the next solution for people there might be to try to immigrate to another country and renounce their Greek citizenship altogether....
AKA if things become hopeless enough in their home country, mass exodus from the country.... If the individuals who maneaged to get their money so decided before their withdrawn funds ran out, they'd have the travel expenses, and money to start a new life to hopefully (in their own case) do it before they'd hit the point of being but political refugees/migrant workers living in tent cities....
Greece is on the edge of disaster and the hard left party is pushing it over by refusing any/all compromise on austerity. This is what happens when dogma trumps reality and voters fall for it.
Roger,
welcome back, now get a job and don't spread your toxic ways from Greece over here. It's bad enough we had to pay for you to get out of a mess you made for yourself by being an expat, please don't act like you obviously did over there we already have enough entitled dead beats, thanks to Obama and Pelosy, and Co. You might tell your wife to get a job and save her money till she can bribe her way out, just don't ask for us to drag her over her on our dime as well.
And Jeff are you hooked up to a door? Reason I ask is you seem dumber than the knob on one. Haven't you ever heard of self preservation? At least the expats your addressing didn't hit us up to ay their way back. also if I were you I'd be more aware of whats going on and less willing to go down with the ship as it's your sort of thought thats draging us down over here by throwing good money after bad ideas, ala Obama.
Frankly, I am surprised it has taken this long for people to pull their money from banks. Back when the Euro was proposed I said it was a stupid idea. Nationalism in Europe dies hard, and not all economies are equal. In an ideal world they would be, but we live in the real world, hardly an ideal one. It is an idea, like free-trade zones, that just aren't compatible with reality. We here in the US saw this when jobs were being shifted over-seas and down south into Latin America. Oh businesses and Corporations love them, but they are very bad for the average person.
Germany, the strongest economy in the EU, cannot hope to prop up so many failing economies. For all its economic might, it is still a much smaller country than is the US, or China, or Brazil or India - the four economies that may be able to prop up such a thing like the Euro, but even combined they'd be hard-pressed to do so.
To the OP - I'd convert that money back into US dollars ASAP. The Euro is heading south, fast. While it is still valued above a dollar, get what you can. If it is scrapped, as I expect it will have to be, it won't be worth the paper it is printed on. The inflation seen in Germany in 1922 when France invaded to force factory workers to keep working so as to continue reparation payments France and England insisted Germany pay following WWI should be a lesson. The literal truth is that people had to use wheel-barrels and carts to bring enough money to the baker just for a loaf of bread. Their currency was worthless outside German, and within was almost worthless. This is what will happen to the Euro.
New elections in Greece will not change this. Their debt is too large, and their economy is too small. They will need to pull out of the EU and re-introduce a Greek currency, and that may take years for the rest of the world to accept. Even if backed by gold, a foolish and far outdated notion in my opinion, most other countries and investors will be wary for some time. Plus that whole idea is based upon a country having enough gold to cover the entirety of the circulating cash; something hard to do in the twenty-first century. I have no idea what kind of gold reserves Greece has (or Italy, Spain, Portugal, or Ireland - the economies worst hit at the moment). And with such weak economies, it isn't likely they could buy enough gold to cover the currencies.
All in all, the EU and the Euro came out of the euphoria of the Velvet Revolution, and was an idealistic and noble idea, just not a practical one. One day, when people have moved past the need for currency and wealth (if ever such a day comes before the already wealthy grab all the wealth for themselves), an economic system can be put in place that will allow for something like the Euro, but we aren't evolved enough yet for such things. the notion Gene Roddenberry had in Star Trek of a united world where wars over resources and the need for currency is far from coming true anytime soon. Nice idea if it could be done, but reality is far uglier than that.
Germany and France can't bail-out the rest out Europe, and the US needs to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure here, along with creating a real jobs program, so we can't help in any way. China is starting to have an economic slowdown as is India, and Brazil hasn't yet reached economic super-power level yet, so all that is left to the Europeans is to dissolve the EU and go back to national currencies.
Frankly, I am surprised it has taken this long for people to pull their money from banks. Back when the Euro was proposed I said it was a stupid idea. Nationalism in Europe dies hard, and not all economies are equal. In an ideal world they would be, but we live in the real world, hardly an ideal one. It is an idea, like free-trade zones, that just aren't compatible with reality. We here in the US saw this when jobs were being shifted over-seas and down south into Latin America. Oh businesses and Corporations love them, but they are very bad for the average person.
Germany, the strongest economy in the EU, cannot hope to prop up so many failing economies. For all its economic might, it is still a much smaller country than is the US, or China, or Brazil or India - the four economies that may be able to prop up such a thing like the Euro, but even combined they'd be hard-pressed to do so.
To the OP - I'd convert that money back into US dollars ASAP. The Euro is heading south, fast. While it is still valued above a dollar, get what you can. If it is scrapped, as I expect it will have to be, it won't be worth the paper it is printed on. The inflation seen in Germany in 1922 when France invaded to force factory workers to keep working so as to continue reparation payments France and England insisted Germany pay following WWI should be a lesson. The literal truth is that people had to use wheel-barrels and carts to bring enough money to the baker just for a loaf of bread. Their currency was worthless outside German, and within was almost worthless. This is what will happen to the Euro.
New elections in Greece will not change this. Their debt is too large, and their economy is too small. They will need to pull out of the EU and re-introduce a Greek currency, and that may take years for the rest of the world to accept. Even if backed by gold, a foolish and far outdated notion in my opinion, most other countries and investors will be wary for some time. Plus that whole idea is based upon a country having enough gold to cover the entirety of the circulating cash; something hard to do in the twenty-first century. I have no idea what kind of gold reserves Greece has (or Italy, Spain, Portugal, or Ireland - the economies worst hit at the moment). And with such weak economies, it isn't likely they could buy enough gold to cover the currencies.
All in all, the EU and the Euro came out of the euphoria of the Velvet Revolution, and was an idealistic and noble idea, just not a practical one. One day, when people have moved past the need for currency and wealth (if ever such a day comes before the already wealthy grab all the wealth for themselves), an economic system can be put in place that will allow for something like the Euro, but we aren't evolved enough yet for such things. the notion Gene Roddenberry had in Star Trek of a united world where wars over resources and the need for currency is far from coming true anytime soon. Nice idea if it could be done, but reality is far uglier than that.
Germany and France can't bail-out the rest out Europe, and the US needs to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure here, along with creating a real jobs program, so we can't help in any way. China is starting to have an economic slowdown as is India, and Brazil hasn't yet reached economic super-power level yet, so all that is left to the Europeans is to dissolve the EU and go back to national currencies.
roger white-3731376......so have you been paying U.S. taxes for the last 30 years, or do you just want to be an American when your other options don't pan out ?
oregonjoker:
Notice I said a"loan". I am required to pay that money back, and I will.
You are a blithering moron. You know absolutely nothing of my situation. Your crude comment reveals only one thing to me; your ignorance.
While I lived in Greece, I do so as an American. I never lost my American ethic of a hard day's work for a fair day's pay. AND LEAVE MY WIFE OUT OF THIS! The woman is a saint, a rare breed in that country. She is 57, where will she get a job? She spent two and a half years of the past three years caring for her physically indigent mother.
It is your type of toxicity America does not need. Move to the mountains in northern Idaho and leave the rest of us alone.
I will find a job. I will repay Uncle Sam and I will be a productive American, as I have always been. AND I will kick your a$$ if you are man enough to give me the opportunity!!!!!!!
Gold is perhaps the most irrelevant "currency" of all. It is not legal tender in any country and is traded as a commodity by unregulated speculators. About 80% of all gold "investments" or "hedges" are fraudulent in some way. For example, Glen Beck's company will sell you gold quoted in ounces, but only available in "units of transfer" of pounds. Most people do not realize that a pound of gold weighs several ounces less than a pound of feathers since one is weighed in Troy and the other in Avoirdupois. It's one of the oldest scams in the book, going back at least 500 years. Gold coins are another scam, netting you less than half the value you think you are getting.
And there will NEVER be a gold standard, or even a "precious metal standard" for one simple reason: there is not enough of all precious metals (gold, silver, and platinum) in the world combined, if all were confiscated right down to your wedding band, to power the world's economy. The entire world would take a 30% hit if all were successfully confiscated. If people hid some as a hedge, the hit would be worse.
The scarcity of precious metals was why the US wend from a gold standard to a mixed gold and silver standard to a "fractional" gold and silver standard to a silver standard to a fractional silver standard and finally to a completely blue sky currency. There was simply not enough gold and silver in the whole world to float just the US economy. What was done was necessary to have enough money in circulatin to allow the economny to continue to grow. There was only a slight pause with the massive deflation of the Great Depression and none at all with the Bush Depression.
"I'm really not sure Greece could survive for very long if external money was cut off,"
This is what happens when you spend much more than you earn for too long, and depend on 'investors' to finance your deficits, but they say "No More".
For those who think that a 'tax and spend approach to growth and deficit reduction' is viable, let me remind you that for the last 3.5 years we've tried that approach in America, and here are the results;
We have incurred $5.7 Trillion in 'stimulus' deficit spending since the end of fiscal 2008, for a 57% increase in the National Debt, which has resulted in only a 4% increase in economic growth (GDP). The debt is increasing far faster than any growth in the economy could possibly compensate for.
Do we really need more evidence that deficit spending does not work?
LOL, Pun intended?
Anyway, ignorant people like Jeff simply don't know that banks only keep a fraction of the money deposited in cash available for withdrawal, the percentage is surprisingly low even in the US.
OregonJoker is even more ignorant in that he does not seem to realise that the US is not the only country where Americans live and work, for MANY reasons.
Ignorance seems to be the theme today.
The Euro was a bad idea. In its first decade, Europe’s economic integration was uniquely successful. At their summits, leaders divvied up profits. That dynamic changed with the euro crisis: now they had to share burdens -- something no one was prepared for, either institutionally or mentally. This, in turn, has led to squabbling among nations at a level that hasn’t been seen since 1957, when the Rome Treaties were signed.
Y'all need to check out the debt clock. In early January the average savings per family was almost $10,000. Now it is just above $6,500.
The moral of the story is: if you don't have a job and do have some savings, guess what disappears!
Yes, you guessed right! The savings disappear.
The same thing that is happening in Greece is starting to happen here in the good ole U S of A. The country is overspending its income, national debt is skyrocketing, and personal savings is in a death spiral. Wake up and smell the burning printing presses! We could be next!
poor greece if only they had given their rich tax cuts like us they would have jobs like us.lol.their rich dont pay squat in taxes either.
mm584706:
I earned my income on the Greek economy, paid in drachmas and later in euros. Because my salary was below the expat line, I was legally exempt from paying U.S. taxes. I voted in U.S. elections, kept up my social security payments, but I paid Greek tax, and for what.
I have been a dyed-in-the-wool American since the day I was born. 13 years of honorable military service is part of my testament to that.
Look, mm, we Americans can leave America and still be American. In the end, things went badly for us, that's all I'm saying. You, and others like you, should withhold your acrid comments until you have walked a mile in my shoes. Of course, then there would be no acrid comments.
JohnQ, "The Rich" pay almost ALL the taxes. The top 5 percent pay HALF of all taxes. The bottom 50% pay no taxes, and the bottom 20% recieve refunds after paying ZERO taxes via EIC.
You are a liar, or simply ign orant of the truth which is it?
The only way for Greece to stay in the Euro is for the ECB to devalue the Euro and allow deficit spending by all participating countries to stimulate growth in the Eurozone. Unfortunately, many of the Eurozone countries have created unsustainable government reliant economies where austerity measures alone, cannot work. The decreased value of the Euro would make their goods and services more affordable to the rest of the world which would promote growth. But, can the Germans be convinced that it is worth their sacrifice? Personally, I don't think the Germans will support a devaluing of the Euro.
Jenny,
Do the banks in Greece have any kind of government protection like the FDIC insurance in the US? If Greece drops out of the Euro will money that is in the bank in Euros simple be redeemed at the new currancy rate and who will set that rate? So many questions.
Good luck
Yeah, there is "no bank run, no queues, or PANIC."
It will be interesting to see the list of "foreign investors" who is going to take the brunt of the "losses" when Greece defaults.
Let's see now: Goldman Sachs will probably top the list.
@ oregonjoker
____________________________________________________
Hey joker,,, got the market cornered on naivete cornered yet ???
Americans owe more, dollar for dollar, on their debt then Greek citizens do on theirs. So we are in no position to criticize.
Further, if they default, the European banks being defaulted on are the same banks that OWN the U.S. "Federal Reserve". That is why it could easily cause another world wide economic downturn again.
So I think we all agree that Greece is done for. I think we all might agree that the Euro is not far behind. And we might all agree that the U.S.A is heading down that same path. My question is, if we all can see it what the hell is wrong with those who keep funding Greece and those in our government? Seems simple to me, stop spending so much, stop lending so much and take care of you and yours first. Sounds a lot like what I do at home.
canon, you don't get it either. very few do.
the 'government protection' is a mirage, a ponzie system.
THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY! hello! they have put everyone in 15+ TRILLION in debt.
When are you people going to wake up!??
In 2007 the federal govt SPENT 2.5 trillon, that was the budget. Back then the total debt was very close to half what it is today.
Obama and co.today have a federal budget of 3.8 Trillion. say wha...?
All you liberals who love utopian ideals at everyone else's expense, how can you with a straight face defend a govt. that has grown 50 PERCENT in 5 years!????? and it has DOUBLED OUR NATIONAL DEBT!!!
The US will fail. get ready. our turn is unavoidable. once the iceberg struck, the sinking could not be stopped. our debt will NEVER be paid back. finantial collapse, thanks to our leftist govt spending, is coming for us and will not be avoided. this bubble is goiing to blow big time. suffering for one and all, get ready.
Where will they put their money…Germany? United States? We have a global monetary problem..The 1% VS the 99%. Cut all expenses and do not raise taxes is the proposal of the 1% for the USA.. If so, does corporations and the 1% fund the infrastructure roads, bridges, schools, police, security while the taxpayer 99% continues to fund military expenses and money wasted on useless wars….The world went into a depression in 2008 primarily thru fraudulent investment banking scams and lowering taxes while spending trillions on military investments and wars… Shared sacrifice is needed now..The 99% better wake up that the 1% does not want the 99% to share in their trillion dollar hidden wealth. Look at Greece, they tried cutting expenses for the last 3 years and now the 99% are living with no safety net, no jobs and no food..The 1% are pulling billions of dollars out of the Greece banks and economy… Is this the future for all of the remaining countries? This is the time for the 99% to vote out the 1% and get citizens elected for 1 or 2 terms that will have the will to compromise with a balanced approach to resolve the problems. . It appears it does not matter who is elected there is a group of people worldwide who controls the financial future at THIS TIME. But the LOVE of money will be their downfall….The world is rapidly descending into a financial, moral and uncontrollable natural disasters that will force the citizens of the world to repair the moral and spiritual fabric of our society.
Hey everybody in America "WATCH GREECE".......this is where we are headed with our governments current reckless spending and borrowing and spending more. Raising our taxes to cover our gov. over-spending is only pissing us off. We will hold our sitting gov. responsible for what happens to American - at the polls.
Greece is a blueprint for what will happen in America if the left thinks they can spend our way into prosperity. Most Americans know you cannot spend what you don't have and be successful and survive for the long run..spending above your means = bankruptcy.
Where do you think the two billion (and counting) JPMorgan losses came from? Investment in Euro countries. It will domino and anyone here should also take a long hard look at the banks here. Unfortunately what is happening in Greece will soon affect Italy and Spain. Fiat money issued by global banks is the root cause.
Soon it will get so bad that there will be pressure to create a global currency, which was the end-game objective all along.
You always seem to fail to point out that "the rich" make almost all of the income and that's why they pay almost all of the taxes. Do you have a problem with those living entirely on social security, part-time workers, single households, and others at the poverty level?
Typical right-winger low-life trying to play class warfare and then blaming the other side for doing it.
I’ve always considered the Europeans to be generally smart. They each have their quirks, the French are obsessed with conspiracy theories, the Germans are a bit on the stern, the Italians are overly concerned with appearance, ect. However overall they all tend to be a little smarter than average; or so I thought. Apparently I was wrong.
First they go and vote like crazy people in the midst of debt crisis (Yes they have a debt crisis, debt for some of these nations is far worse as a percent of their GDP than it is for the USA and the USA has an issues with debt) and elect people who promises more spending. What the heck are these people thinking? Next the Greeks make a run on their banks, withdrawing Euros!
Let’s think of that for a moment. If the banks in Greece fail because of the runs the Euro as a currency will collapse. The nations that can (Germany, The Netherlands & Maybe Denmark) will revert back to their native currencies and the Euro will become basically worthless. So all that money the Greeks are taking out of the banks will not be worth the paper it is printed on.
This is really stupid; they are going to cause what they fear!
Canon....money deposited in banks here is guaranteed by the National Bank of Greece...our version of the FDIC. The only problem with that is Greek banks are on very shaky ground right now. Such a guarantee is hardly reassuring in my opinion. As with the junta of the 60's in Greece, the next morning might be too late. I find its better to err on the side of caution and leave big words like "guarantee" to be taken in good faith by those who have nothing to lose.
You both make good points. What we need to do is raise up the 47% or so of Americans that are not paying taxes and who are (for the most part) receiving taxpayer financed subsistence, to the level that they are working & paying taxes on their own. I am not talking about cutting the help we are giving, I am talking about providing job training on a national level to get those people (families) self-sufficient. We need to change the Welfare system and unemployment compensation and other benefits programs to mandate education and have receipients required to attend classes or an OJT program as a requirement to receiving benefits. We all will benefit when we learn to teach them how to take care of themselves and we'll see their dignity and self-worth return to them.
I have seen first hand what becomes of a culture that has been recieving benefits and now they have no national identity or self-dignity - the American Indian. We have given them everything, so much so that they can no longer do for themselves nor do they have the motivation to do so. Why work when you can get $$ for doing nothing - what a cost to human dignity.
If you time your exit just right you can catch the European collapse and make it back to the US to see the American collapse. Isn't life fun.
Ah, the gloom and doomers. Its the sitting governments fault. Its the left, its the right! Its the greedy, scum, multinational corporations and the big banks that are skinning you loudmouths. But, all i hear from many of you is its the sitting President. YOU never put the blame on the big money boys. I could go on and on explaining how YOU get screwed, but you would not listen. Its all about your particular hate as to what you believe. Politicians have you snowed and use your so called patriotism, so called values, and religion to dumb you down.
roger white - Thank you for justifying your life, even though you didn't need to. Welcome back to American soil. If there were a way to help your wife and her mother, I'd do what I could (privately).
Not sure if you were on Newsvine in Greece, but posters like the jerk who railed against your situation without knowing 98% of the facts is normal for this forum.
roger white-3731376,
If Uncle Sam refuse to help You with temporary "loan"even you had served the military and paid your taxes before ,try considers other options..
Best you get dual citizenship either Australia or Canada first,Then get Singapore PR if you have the talent and skill,as the Jobs is plenty over there,its best for you from returning to another sinking ship, forget about returning to US if they can't help you out temporary.
When a rat leaves a sinking ship, do not despise the rat, he is being smart. But the ship is still sinking and we are angry and want to punish the rat.
Smart Alec once said "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia."
Recently, Mr. Eduardo Saverin,renounce his citizenship,Im sure,he will enjoy his financial success more in Asia than in Yankee Doodle Land.Saverin, a Brazilian-born resident of Singapore.
The United States has become such a sh1thole, it is a wonder more people don't renounce their allegiance to this country. The tax system sucks. The healthcare system sucks. Education sucks. The mortgage system sucks. Immigration sucks. Our political system sucks. The "American dream" has been reduced to financial pursuits, nothing more. It is easier for an immigrant to get a job than an American.
Yes, I hear all you GOP morons telling me to leave before you say it. I hear you telling me that we have it better here than in most places. You're right if you compare us to the third world. But, if you compare us to the bulk of Western Europe, Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, you're wrong. In those places, people report better health, greater happiness, and have much higher educational standards and social support systems.
Yes, I hear all you fearful, brain-washed GOP morons chirping about how all those other places are run by socialists and how I should take my "commie" butt over there if I love it so much. Rather than blindly defend the US, why don't you pull your head out of the propaganda and get educated first?
Check out the PISA report on education. Places like Singapore (and all the places listed above) kick our butts in education. [just by the way...a little FYI]
Did I mention that the USA is a dump? Did I mention that our system is badly broken? Did I mention that most politicians are bent on lining their pockets instead of serving the people? And, for the last time, if you want to defend America, PROVE how it.
Hello folks, the dominoes are falling! Europe has collapsed a long time ago they are just looking for a place to fall down. Isn't it ironic that a little country like Greece can threaten to take our financial system down. Our 5 largest banks are having trouble paying off their credit default swaps liability. JP Morgan is the first to admit their theft (blunder) of the investors money, Citibank, BOA, HSBC and Goldman Sachs are next in line. Wait until Spain and Italy are given the thumbs down by the International Swaps and Derivatives Association (ISDA).
We are witnessing the biggest bank robbery in history and the banks are doing the robbing! The game is up folks. Believe it or not!
The USA is "regressive" in the approach to doubt taxation for ex-partriate citizens But loopholes to Free-tax and tax cut rebates for "Phony Dodgers registered as foreign Corporation" with offshore bank they're,(PIC members) of americans corporation backdoor.
It doesn't matter where you live and work; the fact that you are American makes you liable to the IRS...even though you may have paid your share to the country in which you reside. It's not a tidal wave, but it's becoming more common for American "ex-pats" to "just say no" and give up their American
citizenship. Sometimes the economic burden is just too much.
@Dave,
Good post. I agree with the thinking on all your points, but I would add to that: There is only one way that any country has ever gotten out of serious external debt. And there lots of those situations in Europe for hundreds of years. That only way is through intentional inflation. If a country was lucky (as we have been a couple of times) you get fairly controlled but significant inflation with robust growth in at least one major sector of the economy. If it was not lucky, the country's currency collapsed and massive inflation basically reset the economy back to zero. An example of inflation plus growth is the Eisenhower Recession. An example of a failed attempt to do the same thing was the massive inflation of the Mark under Hitler.
I don't worry too much about this country. The government is far from broke. It actually owns and controls far more value in fixed assets (from tanks to tank farms to national parks, etc) than it owes. It really isn't so much that every citizen is saddled with an amount of money they'll have to pay eventually, but is instead a mortgaging of the government's fixed assets.
If you take the value of all the fixed assets that the government owns and then subtract all the external debts owed by the government, the taxpayer comes out with a huge credit amount, not a tax bill as some contend. Out government, and hence the taxpayer, actually own more in toto or per capita in terms of fixed assets than any other people in the world. We just fail to see the national parks when the economy is sour.
Greece is a much different situation. There is a huge amount of subsistence agriculture and fishing and only one real external sector --- tourism. Too much chaos or too much recession will kill the tourist industry. They simply cannot achieve any sort of inflation plus growth scenario. And they well know what hyper-inflation does since Hitler brought them one of those as well. My guess is that they will abandon the euro and return to the drachma with some sort-og price-fixing scheme that fixes only key prices --- certain foods, gasoline, rent, certain clothing, --- maybe 200-300 items --- and lets the country take 4-5 years of bad times before starting to pull ahead more strongly than expected because of the lack of debt load.
So what are they saying? That Greece is going to become the next Nazi Germany?
Jenny-1680959
I wish you the best Jenny, but the same thing is headed here in America as well.
Global economic meltdown you can't run or hide from.
It's everyone's problem and we all will have to pay a price sooner or later.
If you have money, don't tell any friend or relatives about. If you do, then you will be the target for when things get really bad, and people become desperate for survival.
Now if everyone on here would just do the same to Bank of America !!!
Concernedone;
Thanks for your understanding and concern.
You know, it astounds me just how ignorant, insensitve and crude some people can be. And to think, they have access to the world to spew their views. No wonder many of them use a pseudonym, with opinions like they have, I would not want to put my name to it.
About my wife, she is alone now. Her mother passed away last year. I spoke to her an hour ago, she was in good spirits.
Anyway, it's nice to hear from people like you. And I know, here in America your type is the silent majority. It is the ignorant squeaky wheels like oregonjoker who make most of the noise and, thusly, get most of the attention.
WHere did you get all that BS from my post? I will tell you where, in your hate filled bigoted mind, thats where. It sure wasnt from my post. ANd can the fake familiarity. I just posted statistics that are 100% true, sorry they conflict with your liberal mindset. Please seek help.
By the way, you lied about the "rich" making most the income, most of the "rich" live off interest and dividends and forgo income. You know nothing.
On top of being a bigot, you are a hypocrite because if you came into money or a high income you KNOW you would not turn it down. I am sure YOU would be different though, not like the others, right?
Jeff-573598
Now if everyone on here would just do the same to Bank of America !!!
- and soon...
BofA as well as other banks are claiming it takes up to 30, 60 and 90 days to close an account, and they can also charge you a fee for it as well.
I closed my account with BofA when they announced that they were going to charge a $5 atm fee. So they canceled that plan, but now they are charging (mostly the poor) fees that have less than $250 in their accounts.
The system we have forces people to go to banks and to cash their checks and to pay their bills, and this is one thing that needs fixing in America.
Stop robbing the poor, and stop giving the rich all the breaks and free money, and last but not least, end all those multibillion dollar bonuses.
@ScoMata1964
Interest and dividends are called "investment income." And yes, the top one percent own the majority of the investment instruments that generate investment income, although as a group tend to have less "earned" income, as from salaries.
While it was wrong for the person you quoted to call you a "low-life," he does have a point about the wealthy making most of the income.
When you consider income, many people don't work for a salary and that is the problem. Self-employed people don't work for wages, those who can invest money do so and live off the interest income. Too often there is a misconception about earnings. Demonizing people because they think outside the box is childish.
Wealth generates wealth if you have the smarts to invest wisely. What the issue should turn on is that there are corporations who do indeed hang onto their money and those groups often have very powerful lobbies to twist legislation to their favor.
Outlaw lobbys and much of that disparity would go away. As always, little of the finger pointed is aimed in the direction it should go, which is squarely on the politicans.
Same as it ever was...
So we have finally come to it.
Did the bankers really think they could impoverish ("austerity measures") ANY society to the point of economic resuscitation? You can no more pull a country out of an economic morass by taking more from the masses, than you can save a drowning man by throwing him a rope with a cinderblock tied to the end.
Fools. This is a purposeful takedown. Its orchestrated. The dominoes are coming down.
And as for you, Mr. White - so much for wedding vows that includes "for better or worse".
Coming back the the USA to try to avoid the coming economic storm is like finding another room that isnt as wet, on the Titanic.
Hang on folks, its gonna be a wild ride...
Funny how people blame the citizens for a mess they had no part in. Shameful to blame the poor for the misfortune of entire countries, the poor do not have power, the poor do not write policy or make false promises. What is truly disgusting is the lack of compassion among people today. They would rather criticize the poor instead of helping them.
StoptheCannibals-2908428 "JohnQ, You always seem to fail to point out that "the rich" make almost all of the income and that's why they pay almost all of the taxes."
Actually, that's not true. While "the rich" pay the vast majority of income taxes (the top 10% pays 70% of income taxes), they actually only 'make' only about 30% of the income. They're the ones that get stuck with the 'progressive' tax code.
The 'run' on Greek banks is the start of a potential catastrophe for Greece for a simple reason - The fractional reserve requirements.
I'm not sure what the Greek 'fractional reserve requirements' are, but in the United States it's about 10%, which means that $1 Million in reserves allows the bank to generate $10 Million in loans.
If massive amounts of capital disappear from the Greek economy, it could snowball into a massive reduction in the amount of money in circulation, which would have devastating consequences - ala the 'Great Depression' for Greece.
This should get interesting.
Chris, gold is the most relevant currency... it has intrinsic value, not fabricated... when the price of gold goes up and down, it's not the gold that's changing, it's the dollar... yes, it's traded in Troy ounces... you buy it by the ounce, you sell it by the ounce... and the "by the pound" shipping has to do with the fact that a single ounce of gold is easy to misplace/lose, which for $1600+ is a big deal. There's no scam.. if you have a lb of gold shipped to you it will be less than sixteen TROY ounces... 12.8 to be exact, because Troy ounces are 35 grams instead of 28grams. But you only pay for the 12.8 Troy ounces in the lb... not sixteen times the price per ounce (that plus whatever fee you pay for the transaction/shipping). Any other commodity is also relevant... crude oil, steel, soy beans, copper, etc.
The currency used is irrelevant, time to go back to work Greeks and quit lazing around complaining! It's not that bad.
The most poignant statement in that article is this: “Over the last two years Greeks withdrew approximately 70 billion euros from their bank accounts, an amount equivalent to approximately 35 percent of Greek GDP,” IOWs, as Greece was begging the EU for money and promising to cut salaries, services and pensions to the poor and middle class the rich were taking that money out the back door as fast as it was coming in the front door. The rich have recouped their losses and stuck the debt on the backs of the poor and middle-class. That's become a current worldwide business model led by those in the U.S. including every Republican candidate for our presidency and especially Romney. Take heed 99%.
Staying in the Euro helps the wealthy Greeks. The poor don't have much savings to be devalued and just want jobs. Somehow their standard of living has to be adjusted downward. Its either through strict austerity or by devaluing the currency. Allowing the currency to adjust would allow wages to be more globally competitive. More jobs but anything imported would be very expensive.
weirdscience. You could not be more wrong!!! Your view of Greeks being lazy comes from what we know about civil servants. Those who work for a living are hard working people, their average work week is among the longest in Europe.
And things are that bad. Where did you get your opinion on this issue? Mine comes from living the past 20 years in Greece. Things over there are that bad, that's why I came back to America.
@wierdscience,
I would point out that prior to Greece being accepted into the eurozone, the EEC went over the country's books with a fine-toothed comb. They took almost two years and over 1,000 people to do a full and complete audit. And what did they find? No excessive unfunded pensions, no dangerous structural socialism, no instability, no unbalanced expenses versus income, no overzealous borrrowing. In fact, in almost two years of investigation all they cound was that the Greek military was charging purchases when received instead of when ordered. And this had already been changed by the Greek Parliament prior to being found.
What happened to Greece was that the German and French central banks looted the Greek economy during the year when Greece had been approved by the people and the EEC to join the eurozone, but were still on the drachma. The French and Germans dumped drachmas on the market, driving down the price. Then, just before conversion, they bought back the same drachmas very, very cheaply and cashed them in for euros at a huge profit. The banks had a fixed exchange rate while the Greek people had a floating exchange rate and they used that fact to transfer between 40% and 60% of the entire wealth of the country to French and German banks. Then when there were not enough euros to pay the bills, the same French and German banks happily loaned them back their own looted money at high interest rates to cover the difference.
This is not something caused by "lazy" Greeks, by "socialism", by unnecessary borrowing, by deficit spending, or any of the other reasons. This is a problem created by French and German banks who literally collapsed the economy of a small, relatively poor country for pure capitalist profit.
The Greek people are wonderful, hard-working, and extremely frugal and thrifty. This is very typical of a country where the mainstay is subsistence agriculture and fishing. The tourist industry is the secondary source of income and is still among the best in the world. If the Greek people revert to the drachma, I, for one, will make sure I spend a month on Corfu to do my part to keep tourism going. The ginger ale there alone is worth the trip.
they are bad over there because of deadbeats living off of " Those who work for a living are hard working people, their average work week is among the longest in Europe." Sorta like your getting us to pay your way out of a mess you should have saved the funds to protect your wife and kid from. Instead you lived the good life till someone else paid your way away from the other dead beats. I hope you reflect on what happened over there and decide to start taking care of your family so we don't have to for you.
Chris;
This audit you speak of, the EEC took to cooked books Greece gave them. Remember what Ollie Renn told the Greeks: "The game is over, we need real statistics". Greece lied and cheated their way into the club.
What is taking place in Greece now is not the fault of Germany and France but of GREECE. Greeks always look to put the blame on anyone else but themselves. It won't work this time.
Bear in mind that Greece is openly known as the most corrupt country and government in the EU, a reputation they earned for themselves. Now, they have to pay the price for their lying, cheating, deceitful ways.
I imagine you are Greek or have some Greek blood in you, I can tell by your anecdotal support for Greece's plight. Try being objective.
@roger white,
Your name-calling is absurd. It only shows that you have no real arguments and fall back on ad hominem attacks to shore up a failed position.
The onus was on the EEC to examine the books. If, as you say, the Greek government is famous for corruption, then the onus was even more important that the EEC look carefully. If the Greeks, as you state, were "lying, cheating, deceitful" (which presumably includes your own wife) then the 19-month examination of their books failed to detect it. So the blame lies entirely with the French and Germans for not performing proper due diligence.
The same goes for the due deligence that went into loaning the Greek government money when it became apparent that the French and Germans were dumping the drachma to take advantage of their "special" ability to convert drachmas to euros. They failed again in their due diligence.
You are a lot like the trailer park experts who will tell you all about the world economy from behind a can of beer, but have never left their natal county. You profess a great hatred for the Greek government and people, but lived there for 20 years? WTF? How stupid is that?
I am thoroughly Scot-Irish. But on the other hand, I have never met an ethnic group that I thought was inferior or that I even particularly dislike. I have traveled all over the world and always found people to be friendly and outgoing as long as I did not act like an arrogant American. I enjoy people, not hate them. That IS being objective. It is your obvious hatred that is subjective.
And you just went on ignore, so don't bother responding.
@ Chris-749391: You nailed it. The Greeks did make one bad investment- they spent a tremendous sum of money during the 2004 Olympics, with the not unreasonable anticipation that the investment would be covered by the tourist trade within a few years.
Then the economy collapsed- and so did tourism. Again- this was hardly the fault of the average Greek, any touted "entitlement mentality" (which the wealthy suffer from far more than any other class), socialism, ethical failures, and so on notwithstanding.
Many on the right want to pillory anyone who actually implements the Christian virtue of charity- all while claiming to be "saved" as they trample everyone else in the name of avarice, discriminate against anyone not embracing their particular flavor of Bible-thumping, and further hatred by raising their kids as bigots.
What a surprise that Greece is currently their favorite punching bag. What will they say if it doesn't all fall down?
So what if the Greeks are withdrawing their money?
After their experiences with banks during the conversion of the Drachma to the Euro, this should hardly come as any surprise.
What slays me is the fact that anyone even finds the idea of not trusting banks at all newsworthy after what the Banksters and their Wall Street buddies did to the planetary economy in the name of profit.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a run on American banks, in point of fact.
The fools in this scenario are people who don't have their money in a certified credit union- which shares its profits with its members instead of paying ridiculous wages to people in plush offices- at your expense.
Ah, well- some just lack the capacity to learn from their mistakes....
Chris;
What a cheesy ploy telling me not to reply. You are one of those who wants the last word, no matter how stupid that last word might be.
Now, ad hominem is not a logic fallacy if it applies to whom one is speaking.
A "trailer park expert"? Twenty years in that country makes me much more than a beer swilling (I don't drink beer by the way) trailer park expert.
Greece is a complex society. Yes, I hate their government and its politicians, but then, so do the Greeks. Yes, I thuroughly disdain Greece's ethics regarding work, employment and pay. Yet, after 20 years living and teaching there, I will tell you that I have come to know what is good about that country and its people. Greeks, in the abstract, are hard to like, on an individual level, things can be much different. As an example; a Greek expression about... Greeks: "We are dogs in the streets but lambs in the house".
Enjoy your vacation in Corfu, it is a wonderful place. But don't presume to use your tourist experience as a counter to my twenty-year emersion into Greek society and culture.
Where will they put their money…Germany? United States? We have a global monetary problem..The 1% VS the 99%. Cut all expenses and do not raise taxes is the proposal of the 1% for the USA.. If so, does corporations and the 1% fund the infrastructure roads, bridges, schools, police, security while the taxpayer 99% continues to fund military expenses and money wasted on useless wars….The world went into a depression in 2008 primarily thru fraudulent investment banking scams and lowering taxes while spending trillions on military investments and wars… Shared sacrifice is needed now..The 99% better wake up that the 1% does not want the 99% to share in their trillion dollar hidden wealth. Look at Greece, they tried cutting expenses for the last 3 years and now the 99% are living with no safety net, no jobs and no food..The 1% are pulling billions of dollars out of the Greece banks and economy… Is this the future for all of the remaining countries? This is the time for the 99% to vote out the 1% and get citizens elected for 1 or 2 terms that will have the will to compromise with a balanced approach to resolve the problems. . It appears it does not matter who is elected there is a group of people worldwide who controls the financial future at THIS TIME. But the LOVE of money will be their downfall….The world is rapidly descending into a financial, moral and uncontrollable natural disasters that will force the citizens of the world to repair the moral and spiritual fabric of our society.
Reply
Hey Chris - You want to hide behind U of A's logo & pontificate how you are superior to anyone on planet earth (displayed with great regularity on Newsvine). Ignoring someone with 20 years experience brings you to an all time low. But so you have the opportunity to see roger's post (since you sophomorically "ignored" him):
Chris;
What a cheesy ploy telling me not to reply. You are one of those who wants the last word, no matter how stupid that last word might be.
Now, ad hominem is not a logic fallacy if it applies to whom one is speaking.
A "trailer park expert"? Twenty years in that country makes me much more than a beer swilling (I don't drink beer by the way) trailer park expert.
Greece is a complex society. Yes, I hate their government and its politicians, but then, so do the Greeks. Yes, I thuroughly disdain Greece's ethics regarding work, employment and pay. Yet, after 20 years living and teaching there, I will tell you that I have come to know what is good about that country and its people. Greeks, in the abstract, are hard to like, on an individual level, things can be much different. As an example; a Greek expression about... Greeks: "We are dogs in the streets but lambs in the house".
Enjoy your vacation in Corfu, it is a wonderful place. But don't presume to use your tourist experience as a counter to my twenty-year emersion into Greek society and culture.
oregonjoker:
I lived the good life in Greece? Working six days a week and spending my free time at home was not the good life.
Again, let me point out that you know nothing of my experience in Greece, in fact, you know nothing much about me.
You cannot characterize an individual you don't know by using such broad generalizations.
Once again, you ignored the word loan. You didn't pay a dime to bring me back here.
You opinion is like your rectum; it stinks! Do yourself a favor and SHUT UP!!!
I wonder if it is time to start withdrawing all of my American dollars from American banks.
I think you either should find a new country where you can put your money or maybe dig that hidden bunker a little deeper to hide in.
Jeff ... I don't think that you get the point of what's going in in Greece. They're not making withdrawals simply to get their money out of banks. They're withdrawing their money to prevent it from being converted to another currency. What currency do you think your money will be changed to if you leave your money in a US bank?
Guess they found out spending and borrowing your way out
of debt Didn't work...? lol
Jeff.......it will be time if Obama gets elected.
The point is they should have never joined the Euro. They gave up control of their monetary policy and their economy. The US hasn't. Please learn some economics.
Jeff, did you board your house up and buy ammo & beer for Y2K? Don't worry, the Mayans are probably wrong about 2012 the apocolypse.......
Wakehead ... that there are major diifferences between the situations in Greece and the US is lost on too many people. They'd much rather imagine that, somehow, it is all Obama's fault. They have no patience for the facts.
^this. Those ominously comparing the US situation to that in Greece have clearly never taken an economics course, especially one on monetary policy.
This is why it's imperative that countries control their own monetary policy and currency...
Oh wait, we don't either, we sold that right to the conglomerate banking institutions in 1913 for jack squat...
The Yuan (eventually), the way things are going.
Barry-NJ
If currency is changed it will be replaced and it won't matter if that money is in a bank or your pocket.
@Adam,
I would point out that the "yuan" is not a real currency. The Chinese use the renminbi which was strictly pegged to the value of the US dollar. More recently it has been allowed to float a little. The term "yuan" is a generic term that can also mean "dollar" or "yen" or "won" or "euro" and generally refers to any decimal currency including the renminbi.
My guess is that you would lose your shirt in the situation you predict because of simple lack of knowledge. I'll bet you don't know which is heavier, a pount of gold or a pound of feathers. That one has screwed countless thousands of gold "investors" who had no idea that there was a difference.
Gold is at a stabilizing point and it's excellent time to buy to hedge against the collapse Obama is engineering, ala Clowered and Priven. (sorry if I didn't spell the names right)
@Bobby Jones,
If a Greek person has euros in a bank when the exit from the euro took place, those euros would be devalued to whatever point was required for equilibrium with the new drachmas. It would be at least a 60% devaluation. If the person had euros in hand instead of a bank, they could to to another ECC country (even dropping out of the eurozone would not drop them from the ECC) and exchange the euros for new drachmas at par, resulting in no devaluation and perhaps a small appreciation.
Adam, your sense of economics is appalling and leftist at best. Your actually going to tell people that Gold is a bad buy? it's down now but it will rebound quickly because of the very factors you defend.
Yes, but you will have to leave Greece to exchange the currency. I think at that point the devaluation would be the same. Since Greece would be the only place you could use the new currency.
I see the euro as a currency eventually failing anyway.
gold is a decent buy as a form of investment, but a terrible buy in terms of currency.
If the world economy collapses (as those that champion gold insist), gold won't do you any good either in today's modern economy.
Besides, who would take economic advice from someone who asserts this:
Gold is at a stabilizing point and it's excellent time to buy to hedge against the collapse Obama is engineering
At worst (i.e., assuming a collapse IS coming), Obama is merely overseeing the collapse brought about by 30 years of policy makers before him...
Hey Chris, the poor Greeks seem to be falling for the dogma that people like you are dishing out, but the rest of us aren't... yet. The "bankers plot" you're pushing is always a crowd pleaser. SImple answers for simple minds. Enjoy your Ginger Ale on Corfu.
@ oregonjoker
You seem to have me confused with Chris.
@Adam44,
It isn't just the Greeks, the French just tossed out their conservative government in favor of socialists. And in every other country, even Germany, conservatives are scrambling to survive as socialist/labor is ascending rapidly.
All I do is ask the same question that Cicero used to ask in the Roman Senate, "Cui bono?" Who benefits? If you follow the money and see who is profiting and who is losing, it tells a very "dogmatic" story. Denying it is just telling fairy tales in lieu of facts.
Which only reinforces my point that voters will choose the biggest liars with the simplest answers. In Hollande's case, soak the rich with a 75% income tax! Sounds good, huh?
@Chris-749391
That's what happens when you threaten to take away all of their goodies. Just like spoiled little children run to grandmas house when mommy says no more cookies.
The path Obama has us on makes you wonder. We're about to go into another round of fighting to raise the debt ceiling because Obama has us bumping up against the already outlandish $16.4 trillion limit. How deep is he going to bury us? We're looking more like Greece every day. A run on our banks is absolutely in the cards. I'm thinking of taking my money out sooner than later, because if there IS a run, the government might shut down your ability to withdraw it and you'll lose what little you have left.
One this for sure, if Obama gets reelected our money won't be worth the paper it's printed on. Might be time to start contingency planning now and convert a big part of your savings into precious metals and dump the U.S. dollars.
And for the historical revisionists that insist that somehow Greece "cooked the books" to get into the eurozone, NONSENSE! The allegation is based on the fact that the Greek government invested heavily in AAA derivatives (mostly backed by American home mortgages and college loans.) At the time, every government in the world that had any cash to invest was putting it into these derivatives because they were "guaranteed safe" investments. They passed muster for the auditors because the bonds were rated AAA.
Most of the Greek government derivative investments were handled by Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs and "guaranteed" by AIG and rated by all the rating companies as AAA. MS and GS made roughly a billion in fees for handing the derivatives for the Greek government. But both MS and GS (but not the Greek government or the European central banks) knew that the derivatives were not AAA and made billions by simply betting against the same derivatives that they sold to Grece. Between them they pocketed about $11 billion in profits from this maneuver.
This was NOT a case of the Greek government making risky investments. Quite the opposite, these were considered at the time to be some of the safest investments in the world.
And the issue of whether the books were cooked or not is entirely moot since 100% of the onus of certifying the Greek books was on the ECC. It was their job under due diligence to find any suspicious or out-of-order issues. When the central banks happily loaned billions to Greece after the collapse of the derivatives, it was also 100% of their job under due diligence to make sure Greece could and would repay the loans.
The idea of going back after the fact and saying that the Greeks cooked the books is just sour grapes. The Greek government did exactly what the ECC wanted them to do and make all AAA investments.
There were mistakes made. The ECC was all too happy to bring Greece into the ECC and the eurozone because the anti-Muslim, anti-Turk factions in Germany thought that a rapid inclusion of Greece into the ECC and EEC would forestall the entry of Turkey into the ECC (and they pledged never to entertain Turkish entry into the eurozone.) Most people do not realize that there is a huge ex-pat Turkish population in Germany and that the German government is at odds with Turkey over a desire to send them back even though many opf them don't speak anything except German.
The Olympics was a shot that a lot of people doubted at the time. But it was the recession that made the Olympic bet go sour. Apparently the Greek crystal ball wasn't as good as that of some people on NewsVine. Allowing French and German central banks to redeem drachmas at a fixed rate while the rate fluctuated for everyone else was also a mistake. And even dealing with shysters like Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs was a mistake. Trusting derivatives was a mistake. But if you go back and look at what was conventional wisdom at the time Greece made key decisions, they would not have been allowed into the eurozone unless they made them.
Chris;
Or is that Christ? You need to get your narcissism treated.
And stop feigning being an expert on this subject. You get your anecdotes from - what, newspapers, magazines and textbooks? Oh, and I forgot, your world travels with a backpack.
Why don't you get out from behind you computer and experience life before "attempting" to enlighten those of us who have experienced and continue to experience life?
BobbyJones ... you wouldn't have to leave Greece to exchange the currency. Just go to the American Express office, an airport, etc.... And, the devaluation wouldn't be the same. As was previously pointed out, any Euros not in banks wouldn't be touched. When the smoke settled, they'd buy a LOT of Drachmas.
Its only a matter of time for Greece. Best to stay as far away as possible.
I would beg to differ. The currency used DOES, most certainly, make a difference. If you deposit Euros in a Greek Bank, you would most certainly want to withdraw Euros from that bank and NOT Drachmas! The idiots who don't want to start the painful process to rebuild the Greek economy and go back to its old ways of spending without revenue to support it are nothing but fools. That's why you are seeing the typical "Run on the Banks."
Just because people are withdrawing Euros doesn't mean that they're fools or lazy. They're simply trying to preserve their savings. The fact that they're withdrawing the money is proof that they know that the Greek economy can't return to its old ways. It is the people who are leaving their money behind who are fooling themselves that Greece can somehow survive using the same currency as hyper-efficient Germany.
Barry-NJ, all very true but it is also impossible to foretell what the future will bear. For example, how does anyone know what Greece will do as far as future currency restrictions? It would not be unheard of for Greece to impose some kind of fixed exchange rate if/when they convert back to the Drachma. Nor would it be unheard of for a country to limit export of currency. Nor would it be unheard for banking restrictions to be imposed on Greek citizens viz-a-viz foreign accounts and reporting of any conversions done by them.
Cash may be king, but it might be a king without a country.
I'd agree they're making the right choice in withdrawing their funds in a stronger negotiable currency but they are definitely not out of the water yet.
I'm glad that people have so much time to comment on msnbc articles.
As for Americans, the November election has nothing to do with our currency. Pretty soon, our USD will be switching over to the Yuan, as will the Euro. You get what I'm saying....
For the life of me I can not understand why a country would give up there sovereignty for the all mighty dollar. The Euro is a bad idea from jump street.
They didn't give up monetary sovereignty for the dollar. They gave it up for the Euro.
They had hoped to overtake, or at least compete with, the dollar as a world reserve currency. Had that happened, the Euro would be doing much better than it is today.
In hindsight however, it was a half-baked idea from jump street, as you correctly suggested...
Greek political elite withdraw their money over a year ago and put it in NY and London banks while still in office saying "everything is OK"
Political elitist 5cum will always say one thing and do another.
They should be put on trial to account for how they stole and looted their own country.
..a run on the bank? the first step toward total disaster!
Woah, is this a typical run on the bank? Hows that socialism working for ya in Greece? Hey at least they now have the National Socialists in charge. (Called Nazis). France is soon to follow. We are not immune either especially with a Marxist at the helm.
What's socialism got to do with a bank run? In the early days of the Great Depression, the US had bank runs that, in comparison, make what is going on in Greece seem like nothing more than breaking a piggy-bank. We were hardly "socialist." In fact, if our government had acted more forcefully in the early days, the "Great Depression" might not have been so "Great".
I agree 100%. France electing a socialist will be their fall. We are not far behind. Few people even know we have 114 trillion in unsecured debt due to entitlement programs and federal gov retirement plans. Who the hell is going to pay for this?
:rollseyes:
Was your goal to throw in as many 'scary' buzzwords as possible into one post? Cause you succeeded at that, even if you failed at posting anything meaningful.
you people really need to read some history, not just what the faux news channel is pouring on you, Most here dont know a Maxist from a neocon....its just so funny, where do they keep their tin foil hats?
How right you are nothing to see here folks......
Apparently, the word "socialist" in the National Socialist Party (NAZIS) moniker convinces them that NAZIS were socialists.
That is akin to believing the "Moral Majority" is moral.
They were socialists, among other things.
CEO2NV2.......
Fascists NAZIS were the antithesis of and reactionary to socialism. They simply chose that duplicitous term to conceal their true (fascist) nature.
It seems there are some (perhaps CEO2NV2) that resort to similar duplicity these days. It must be either duplicity......or ignorance.
Would you have us believe that you know better than Benito Mussolini and Franklin Roosevelt how to define fascism?
Thank you for the clarification, Ian. Based upon the FDR quote and the current virtual 'ownership' of our government by the Koch brothers et al, it is clear which direction we are heading, and no, Bea, no matter how much you may resent being required to purchase health insurance, it is definitely not towards Marxist socialism.
Just like the US, it's not the Greeks who are to blame. It's the dippy European Central Bank (ECB) that greased the rails for this fiasco.
Best wishes to our Grecian friends. They're gonna need it.
How is the ECB behind this? The Greeks lied to get into a currency union where they had no business being. Sharing a currency with Germany and other efficient economies is slow-motion economic suicide.
Actually, a consortium of US banks got together and offered low interest loans knowing full well that they were already in debt up to their eyeballs. They then bet that they would not be able to repay the loans.
Just like the housing crisis, this was orchestrated by the 1%ers. Thanks, Wall Street! You are true patriots.
It is called due diligence or a standard of care, which is incumbent on the lender, not the borrower.
Hmm ... that's an interesting twist. So, I'm not responsible if I owe more than I can pay back, my mortgage broker is? Give me a break. Greece is a sovereign country that can choose whether or not to borrow. No banks threatened the Greek ministers with bodily harm if they refused to borrow money.
Starderup - you (and everyone else) should read Michael Lewis' book "The Big Short". It is a fantastic account of the housing/credit bubble burst. It's an easy read and he does a great job explaining in simple terms a very complicated situation. The bottom line is that there is plenty of blame to go around on that. It wasn't some conspiracy by Wall Street; it wasn't solely the fault of over-extended home buyers nor can we blame government entirely. They all played a roll. People took out mortgages they knew they couldn't afford; banks made loans they shouldn't have; debt rating agencies (i.e. Moodys, etc.) were asleep at the switch and negligent at best; and the government created an atmosphere that encouraged banks to make loans they should not have and then at least partially guaranteed them (i.e. Fannie Mae, Freedy Mac, etc.). Ultimately, the people that really got screwed are all of us that were responsible in the homes we purchased and the debt we incurred. But now we are stuck with the bill for this cluster in the form of a bad economy, zero interest rates and a herd mentality that wants the government to come in and solve the problems that, in large part, it created in the first place. Seriously - read the book. Whichever side you stand on, this book will at least open your eyes and change your view to some degree.
watch the Frontline special, it will open your eyes
@WakeUpAmerica.
You are correct. And it was the same derivatives that the Greek government bought that Moody's rated AAA and were sold by Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs and insured by AIG that people are now claiming that the Greeks knew were bad and therefore "cooked the books." Do Americans really think that the Greek government was so much smarter than Wall Street that they could have avoided the situation? I think not.
Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs actually made billions by covertly betting that the derivatives were bad and it can be presumed that, unlike the Greek government, that they were in on the scam.
Barry-NJ.......you said:
When a "mortgage broker" KNOWS FULL WELL a borrower is unlikely to perform and conceals that knowledge (and risk) by way of credit default swaps and other such arcane (risk shifting) financial instruments.....then, YES, the mortgage broker is complicit (aka (ir)"responsible").
As Alan Greenspan admitted, the "free" market does not (necessarily) act in a rational manner. It is incumbent upon us humans not to treat market forces as some sort of deity and, rather, keep our hands firmly on its wheel making adjustments where necessary. Otherwise, we should not be surprised when we end up in a financial ditch as we did when Bush/Cheney and the republican party were asleep at the wheel prior to 2009.
One has to come to one or the other of two conclusions regarding folks who argue against financial regulations: They do not understand the inherent chaotic (and manipulated) nature of financial markets OR they do understand but do not care that our economy (aka people's lives) is severely damaged (by it).
Both parties are responsible (the mortgage broker for ignoring lending guidelines and the borrower for not properly realizing what amount of credit they could handle). Now that the Greeks are defaulting on their default swaps because they will not bite the bullet (austerity), they leave themselves one option. They will have to inflate their way out of trouble. You cannot be in as serious amount of trouble as they were and expect to get out of it without a recession or even a depression.
Ian ... as a sovereign government, Greece could obtain the best talent that money could buy to provide independent advice. No European government can claim to be unsophisticated. If it bought financial instruments that it didn't understand, tough. I can just imagine the outcry if banks had REFUSED to sell Greece something that it wanted.
Barry-NJ.......you said:
Do you have the same sentiments for those swindled by Bernie Madoff?
Those of you who preach that the denizens of Wall Street should be allowed to feed upon whomever is unwary, desperate, or unsophisticated enough to fall victim to their predatory practices should remember that many of those victims act on the behalf of legions of trusting customers (or, in cases of "sovereign government"s, citizens).
Anyone can be deceptively swindled Barry-NJ .....even you. Your mantra of "ethics be damned" is, sadly, far from rare. Financial anarchy is no better than that which allows the most ruthless and powerful individuals to take personal property from or inflict bodily harm upon others without the resources to resist.
That so little has been done to prevent further Wall Street excesses and, particularly, that so few have been punished is a testament to the malignant influence Wall Street (and the powerful few) have upon our nation. This MUST be remedied.
Bruce from Jacksonville.......you said:
Evidently, you do not fully appreciate the profound effect credit default swaps (and other such risk transfer instruments) have (had) upon our financial foundations. On account of them, "lending guidelines" were scrapped, radically altered, or ignored by debt packagers. This promiscuity was transferred all along the financial pipeline even down to the fee earning loan originators who care not what a borrower's ability to repay is so long as they can sell the paper. That is why we were inundated with advertising assuring us that loans were available "regardless of credit history" during the Bush/Cheney years.
It is true that individuals representing both our political parties fall under the influence of the unethical (even criminal) and accept bad advice. But, it is the republican party that defends this practice as though unethical behavior is some God given right.
Ian: Come one...the addage to never place all your eggs in one basket has been around for a very long time. All certified financial planners tell you to diversify your portfolio. Ultimately, Greece made some choices that were less than prudent. But, the problems of Greece go beyond that. There tax structure and collection process was very inept. Many "under the table" cash deals were constituted. It was the way things worked. It is the way transactions are made when a population decides that the government is too intrusive. The same thing happens throughout the US. Cash can command some awesome advantages.
But, really, I am not here to debate what Greece has done right or wrong. It is May 17, 2012. What happened in getting here is water under the bridge. The Greeks will be much better off re-introducing the drachma and rebuilding their economy. They just won't be able to afford to venture outside of their own country for awhile.
dave20121.........
Another "adage" has been around for much longer: "Thou shalt not steal."
Have you never heard of theft by deception? Greece will definitely be better off with a sovereign currency. But, that is trivial beside the real issue here: Many within the world's financial community criminally defrauded investors the world over and, where no outright crime was committed, unethical behavior was rampant. Unfortunately, because of the immense influence of our banking/financial class, that is ongoing.
We are fortunate that automobile thieves have no such lobby.
With the creation of the Federal Reserve, the US gave up its financial freedom and placed it in the hands of bankers. Ever since that time, we have been subjected to manipulations and our financial system lacks transparency. As you have stated, all of this is being done legally. But, I think it goes way beyond lobbyists. Investment bankers have held and still hold influential positions within the White House through several administrations of both parties.
this will be the US if obama gets re-elected
No matter who gets elected thats a job i would stay away from donimoes will happen soon nothing good in the future
Makes you wonder about the 6,000 Russian troops sitting on a base in Maine right this very minute doesn't it?
What a crock. Also ignorant and totally idiotic. But then again, you are obviously doing your so called research based on Faux Lying News, Rush The Propagandist Limbaugh and the rest of the well funded and EXTREMELY efficient right wing propaganda machine. So I'll tell you what "nononono" when you can provide PROOF to go along with your constant President Obama bashing, please do so.
And one other point here. You might want to do some miniscule research and see how Ronald (The Conservative God) Reagan staged his economic recovery. Try THREE TRILLION IN DEBT. Try THE LARGEST TAX INCREASES in the history of the United States. Try MASSIVE DEFICIT SPENDING. Try turning America from the worlds largest CREDITOR NATION to the world's largest DEBTOR NATION in less than 8 years. Try INCREASING THE SIZE OF HE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT more than any other president.
President Obama has not even come close to what Ronald Reagan did. Nor will he. Especially if he actually gets some cooperation from the obstructionist Republicans who are currently holding America as hostage for their idiot platform.
Progressive, I noticed you offered no proof or links to your accusations as well.
How true!
Progressive your right in the fact that Regan did up are debt and turn us from creditor to debitor nation. However it wasen't because Regan cut tax's, it's because he coulden't get the democrats in congress to cut spending. Reading history they proposed that if he increased a few tax's they wanted up they would cut spending by twice has much. Regan got the tax increase through and then the cuts never materalized. But nice try though.
@tommy,
Actually Reagan only cut federal income taxes for the wealthy and corporations. But for everyone else he caused the largest tax increase in American history. He paid for the tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations by eliminating a program called Revenue Sharing which returned a lawge amount of federal tax dollars to the states and local governments, mostly in the form of local-discretion block grants in areas such as infrastructure and education. When this income was cut off suddebly, both states and local governments were forced to massivly increase sales and use taxes, property taxes, and fees along with huge cuts in services. The increased taxes were hugely regressive --- as are alll property and sales taxes and useage taxes and fees. They hit the poor disproportionately. The increases in excise and federal income taxes came later after the damage was already done.
And that doesn't even mention the $1.1-1.2 trillion that Reagan looted from federal trust funds and spent on the ill-conceived Star Wars (SDI) that was an abject and complete failure for which the American public has never had an accounting since it was on a "black" budget. And it doesn't mention the "voodoo" accounting that allowed the goverment to count the trust funds as an asset even though they only contained IOU's and to count the IOU's as an asset at the same time. A high school accounting student would know that that wasn't right.
Regan was a B-Grade actor who would be a comunist, a socialist, a Democrat, and finally a Republican as he performed different roles at different times. One thing that makes a good actor is the ability to deliver lines without thinking. If the shoe fits ..... But Reagan is not being treated well by historians who currently rank him lower than Carter and still falling. The lowest ranked is still Buchanan who allowed the Civil War to split the country, but next to lowest is GW Bush. Nixon is also in the bottom ten as is Gerald Ford.
If you'd been paying attention to the posts here (and the Greek crisis, in general), you'd understand that the Greek and US situations are very different. If you don't understand that, the market does. The dollar is rising against the Euro.
But those polcy's worked diden't they inflation came down, unemployment came up, and revnue to the reserves went up. I wonder what these same historans think about Woodrow Wilson. He got us into a world war, he had a 70% tax rate which got us into a depression, he wrongly imprisioned German citizens or citizens who were German, he segrgated the military, he fired blacks from goverment jobs based on race, oh and he liked the KKK. And yet these people put GW Bush, and Regan on the worst list, pffffft please.
'Greek drama' now has a new meaning - but still ominous and troubling.
This type of thing will " In Principle " happen here in America sooner or later .. it can not be helped now ... OUR Debt is TOO great, Our REAL Unemployment, Housing issues and Deficit from Obama is far too great .... Inflation will hit big time in the future, cant be helped ... Gas is already double what it was when obama took over ... everything else is worse and he just keeps feeding BS and too many people in this country never research anything and just go along ... you cant have a Debt greater than GNP ... and we do ... no nation has ever handled that without a collapse
You can not just keep moving made up money from one pocket to another ... sooner or later you HAVE to produce the CASH
So - should we all just make a run for the hills because the sky (or debt ceiling) is falling? Or should we try to be more rational about it and come up with a way to fix the problem? Perhaps if people that should be working - were working and not sucking up public assistance and the companies that should be hiring actually did...that would at least be a start to solving this.
I am all for hitting the hills - but I don't know if I want to share.
I'd like to hear your explanation as to why Obama is responsible for the gas increase.
@Tiggle .. because of Obama's lack of backing oil exploration .... BECAUSE of his adding more debt in just over 3 years then Bush did in 8 he has devalued the Dollar > this is also a reason gas and everything is up ...
Obama is president > he blamed bush for gas going up, yet he takes no blame for this or anything > obama is a fool .. he knows nothing about business or how things work in the real world ...
Obama and Congress are spending us into the endless hole of hell ... clearly Obama will not stop this ... 98% of congress will not stop this ... their idea to fix a debt is to double it .. that is simply idiotic and anyone with the business experience of a lemonaide stand knows this
Same here - seems like another person coming up with an excuse. I am no fan of Obama but even a peon such as me understands that he isn't at fault for us getting screwed at the pump. At this stage of the game it doesn't matter what party you are in support of. There are big problems that need to be addressed by everyone living in this great country. Screw fighting over political parties - stand up and be counted for Uncle Sam.
I'd also like to know why the wealthy, elite, owners/managers of the companies, are not hiring. Why those same people point and blame obama, yet also seem to be taking what money and funds they can from their companies and workers.
Why is it everyone continues to blame Obama, when the captains of industry, the wealthy, and the republicans are doing whatever they can to stall him, pull their money and funds out of their companies, and pass laws in states that would inevitably cause a conflict at the national level.
We are not heading towards a collapse like Greece, but it will be hard times... And the wealthy, the elite, and the republicans are practically setting up a second civil war, refusing to pay more money into the system to help solve the problem, and making lives harder for the lower classes.
I don't agree with all the things Obama does, but I don't believe the... other... candidates have this country's best interests at heart.
It will not happen in the US, if ever, but if it happens - then it must be the result of Republican policies, such as Bush Depression since 2007.
Usually Democrats' policies create wealth and Republicans squander the wealth. For example, the prosperity of the 60s was followed by GOP stagflation; the roaring 90s was followed by Bush Depression.
So if you want prosperity, vote Democratic...
O'Bama/Biden 2012
Clinton/Clinton 2016
Why are people so ignorant? And yes "Islenskur" I am definitely referring to you. You state "OUR Debt is TOO great, Our REAL Unemployment, Housing issues and Deficit from Obama is far too great". All of what you say is a DIRECT result of THIRTY + years of Reaganomics and CONSERVATIVE Supply Side Economics. And members of Congress from BOTH parties who passed legislation that allowed it to happen.
And I am literally sick and tired of the continuing ignorance when it comes to the deficit and President Obama. The "Deficit from Obama is far to great" IS A CONSERVATIVE CROCK. Do some RESEARCH. See how the the deficit began so large in the first place. Find out the REAL mess that President Obama inherited and how Republicans in Congress have done EVERYTHING possible to make sure that mess not only stays, but becomes MUCH WORSE.
The reality? It is uninformed/ignorant Americans like yourself who are the REAL PROBLEM with America. Because you would much rather listen to your favorite conservative talking head and call that research. Rather than actually using critical thinking skills and digging below the right wing propaganda BS to find out the truth.
I am not saying President Obama has been perfect. Far from it. But overall, considering the mess he inherited, President Obama has done a remarkable job. Especially when you consider the fact he is dealing with a Congress that is dysfunctional because of Republicans and so called Blue Dog Democrats who are actually conservatives,
They are not hiring because NO one knows how high obama will go with taxes ... how high our debt will go ... and the REAL unemployement is around 20%
Bush spent too much ... HOWEVER > obama has added in 3 yrs more then Bush did in 8 ... if you hated Bush ... you have to find OBAMA completely disgusting ...
you can not have it both ways.
I'm glad you mentioned Congress, because as I understand it, Congress is the one that spends the money, not the President.
Wasn't it also the Republicans that said debt doesn't matter. For their credit, that is taken out of context. Debt doesn't matter as long as the pie is growing.
What happens when the pie doesn't grow? Obama is not at fault here. GDP has grown every quarter since Obama took office. The market was on the decline leading into his presidency and he inherited one of the worst economic situations of recent history.
Would it have been better to instill austerity measures after the market crashed in Feb 2009? The republicans will never tell you this, but if we didn't spend the 700 billion, we would have teetered into the brink. Rather the Repubs would say, "see, you spent all this money and promised no more than 9% inflation but we have higher inflation".
I'd rather have the high inflation now than what would have been the worst situations since the great depression.
We also have the benefit of hind sight. I just love 20/20 vision.
Progressive,
We have incurred $5.7 Trillion in 'stimulus' deficit spending since the end of
fiscal 2008, for a 57% increase in the National Debt, which has resulted in only
a 4% increase in economic growth (GDP). The debt is increasing far faster than
any growth in the economy could possibly compensate for. Thats Obama's doing not the previous leaders, but OBAMA. What part of that don't you get?
Obama has spent more then bush in only 3 years .. HE HAD A DEM congress for 2 years and spent like crazy ....
But like i said > ALL of DC from Obama on down are spending America to hell .... obama is president and he takes the blame as leader .. that is just the way it is ...
Again i could name you 537 people who need to be run out of DC ....
Creepy! They can screw people over like that? Almost seems like a guaranteed alarm to get your money out.
Of course 'they' (sovereign nations) can do things like that ! Governments can control economic activity in any way they want.
They can prohibit or limit money (or various goods) from entering or leaving
They can decide the type of legal tender - only governments can issue legal tender
They can decide what (if anything) will be held in reserve to back money they issue
They can make the rules for banks, or own/run the banks
They can make it illegal to own gold (or anything else), like US did in Depression
They can set legal interest rates
They can set and collect taxes and tariffs
I am so sick of hearing about this podunk country. We should just buy it and evict everyone.
REALLY .. because we would have to get a loan for it from Communist China > WE ARE BROKE TOO
Nah, we would just print it.
Sure .. if you want gas to cost 9 bucks a gallon ... print away ... again sooner or later you have to back it up .. our debt exceeds our worth as a country yearly
That is why I take the bus
Well Cashonfire .. its gonna get worse isnt it ... sad to say ... we are at the point where we will pay for the Acts of DC sooner or later ... the entire mess of them need to be run out of town forever
I agree 100%. We are broke as a country.
it takes time to integrate into the Euro zone.. don't give up, geeks!
I meant, don't give up, Greeks.
Sorry, no offense to my Greek brothers and systers.
Euro took over offically on 1 Jan 2002 ... that is long enough ... issue is Greek mentality .. it is liberal and solcialist to the max .. just like obama
Remember in the 1780s, the 13 newly independent American states had some problems like this, but the Constitutional Convention made sure a political unity was the solution. Then Alexander Hamilton's genius consolidated debts, solidified the union, laid the groundwork for prosperity, and then the union went on to grow even bigger - 'from sea to shining sea.'
So EU trouble has solutions, what they need is patience, genius, and time. They should have all these.
Thing is ... your point cant apply ... These are Separate Countries with NO desire to become other-wise
I suppose that's Obama's fault as well, yes islenskur?
Tiggle your the only one that mentioned obama in this post here ... grow up
Your a typical liberal ... you insult because you cant back up a single thing you say or claim with even ONE fact .. just like obama > there, you happy now
I suggest taking an economics course rather than listening to Hannity...
I lived in Europe then ... i know what DAM date was the last day to use ones countries currency / last day to take it to a bank and convert it
islenskur,
I'm no liberal. I live my life the way that makes me happy. I don't like politics and believe both Repubs and Dems are at fault for the situation we are in.
There are things I like that Obama has done. There are things I don't like and I won't say he is all good or all bad like others do. To say he is at fault for everything is simply not true. You cannot ignore the actions of the past to learn how you got into these messes. It is also difficult to blame the past as that does no good.
We learn the lessons and apply what we've learned. If we don't, we are destined to make the same mistakes that got us into this.
You puke libtards reading this? You see what is going to happen to our country because you mother effen pukes think money grows on trees? I effen hate you hold your hand out for a handout puke mother effers!
Do you kiss your mother with your filthy mouth? Oh, that's right - you don't have one, and grew from a spore under a slimy rock. Have a nice day.
This is a tragedy. I feel horrible for the Greeks. I pray to G-d that it doesn't happen here.
It will and democrats will be starving to death in the streets! Begging for gov't assistance! This nation will be doomed in less then 25 years because of the demotard scurn draining our money on social welfare programs and their laziness!
You like to rant, hmm?
Greed is the reason why, there is lots of money to go around but the corporations and the rich want it all and your pension money too wake up, the hoarders will have it all someday only they are not smart enough to know it will be worth nothing when they have it all.
Unfortunately, greed is what drives motivation, development, innovation. Very few people do this for intrinsic reasons. For a growing economy, greed (per GG) is good. For a developed economy, greed creates battles, separation, misunderstanding.
It's the pursuit, not of happiness, but of wealth and power, that in our minds will give us happiness in a twisted way.
Tiggle not exactly true and it's a cynical point. While striving for more is often connected and when corrupted turns into greed it is not greed. Greed comes when all you care about is material gain, you forget everything else for materail gains. Socalists espeically forget the connections when they accuse captialist of being greedy when greed exists in socalsim has well (have yet seen a socalist country where the socalist that plan everything live in the same type of squaler has there people)
People need finaincial reward that comes from there production and they need competion to keep producing better products. In this sense large coporations are not capitalists because they do there best to get goverment to stympie small busniess. If you look at history if you look at socalsim but not hard core communsim you will see a love afair between big goverment and big busniess. Big busniess can always greese the skids but small busniess can't. However small busniess can come up with a new innovation that can throw a large busniess out of the market. Remeber IBM use to be a power player, now it's Apple, and Apple use to be a small busniess operated out of a garage.
New Ad campaign from libtards:
Why should women have to buy tampons? That is not fair! Men don't have to buy tampons! Vote for democrats and we will force insurance companies to buy you the tampons/maxipads of your choice with absolutely no co-pay!
You've surely lost it by now.
no mother effer! That is what the democrats actually sound like! You listening you moron! That is exactly what liberals sound like! Vote for them and they will make others buy you stuff!
You make me sick!
Good! I am extremely pleased that I make you sick! Have a nice, sick day. Oh, and get sicker soon.
Regional integration is like a marriage, you can easily give up with the first sign of trouble in paradise, or you can dig in and be patient, and patience usually pays off because in this case in the globalized world, European economic integration is the way to go. But don't treat ECB (European Central Bank) as a giant money-printing casino.
The Greeks are behind the curve a little bit in the game of capitalism - but forging ahead will pay off, instead of going back. Greece needs a mixed economy of planning and free market.
Right now, Greece has too much socialism, not enough free market capitalism - there is need for balance.
Greece has no business being in the same currency zone as Germany and France. Regional integration is a great idea if all parties are roughly equal. That is definitely not the situation in Europe.
they don't have to be 'roughly equal' - remember the 13 newly independent American states in the 1780s - they were 'NOT CREATED EQUAL' but still have grown together to be the most powerful nation ever.
Oh oh! I was wanting to withdraw my funds from Chase after I heard what risky chumps they are.
They made a bad bet alright and took a $ 2 Billion bath (so far).
What you haven't heard nearly so much about on msnbc or the mainstream media is the financial mismanagement in California where the Democrats in charge just revealed that the budget deficit there is $ 7 Billion worse than they "projected" in January 2012.
excellent, this seems to be bad but ist great news. we the people need to brake the EU. and after that the UN. WHO.NAFTA. OTAN......... this are the tools to enslavement and for those hwo do not know. uot of whatever amount of money its said to exist, actually 10% really exist so yeah the "bank holyday" its a GO and what a holyday to them. then the demise of the US.
So do the Greek people still think the EU can not get along without them,even to the tune of forfeiting the money loaned? Looks like the Euro zone is about to call your bluff.
Regardless of whether the austerity plan is working or unfairly posited on the middle class and poor, Tsipras' little maneuver did little to help the situation. It would have bolstered public confidence in the government if Tsipras had been willing to meet,rather than play one upmanship.
The problem Kathern is contagen you see all the banks have a lot of money invested in Greece. Greece fails it causes central banks in France, Italy, and Spain to fail and those countries economies now face dangers of collaspe, and when they collaspe banks in other places who have there debt will start to collaspe. It's a chain recation of dominoes. If it was just a puny spoiled small little country in Europe having to pay the piper this woulden't be front page news but the fact that the domino effect could even hit us is why it's important to watch.
tommy - I know - you are so right (sigh) but I think Greece is so far up @!$%#'s creek without a paddle,there is very little that can keep them from going over the falls.
Greece is saying they want to not pay back the loan, but still borrow more money - how is that going to work? No matter how you look at it,it's going to get messy.
And to top it off - Tsipras refusing to meet unless the far left party is included did not help the situation. Everyone out for their own agenda - and not facing reality. Wasn't that exact same attitude part of what got them here in the first place?
Hoping for the best while preparing for the worst myself. Greece, Spain, Portugal, California, etc. are all be examples of over regulated, over unionized, big government failures. Many of these were shining examples that the left pointed to just a few years ago. Today, they are running out of other people's money with uncontrollable debts mounting, and America is not that far behind. Wake up people, we must downsize government in an orderly fashion and there will be a price to pay for each and every one of us. There is still pain to go through, but we must first admit where we are before we can move towards where we should be.
On a national level we must cut out the waste, reign in the overalpping regulatory burdens, end the tax loopholes/deductions/subsidies, lower the overall rates and broaden the base.
On a personal level live within your means, take time to teach your children, be responsible for our own actions, get out of debt, take care of you and yours.
With the run on the banks what are the people doing with the Euros. Tucking them under the mattress? Buying US dollars, Swiss Francs or British Pounds? No talk if they are buying gold bullion and hiding that which would be the best bet. After the collapse it could be converted back into what ever currency Greece goes back to.
If the Greek government just stamps the Euro to revalue it this reminds me of what Germany did with their currency in the early part of the 20-th century. Now you would need a wheelbarrow of paper currency to buy a loaf of bread.
Good luck with all the entitlements the Greeks are used to especially the super early retirement benefits.
If they have large sums of Euros, they're probably wiring them to accounts in other European banks.
Hope no one steals the wheelbarrow will be worth more than the money who is to blame
Wiring Euros to banks in other countries - the problem with that is the paper trail. Greece may put a limit on funds leaving the country - it could happen at any time, and they might even make it retroactive in some way (like a tax on transfers that have already happened.)
Several groups will benefit from Greeks withdrawing euro cash, converting it to gold or other currency. The money changers and bullion dealers will raise their markups. Also, it will be a windfall for burglars and robbers. If people cannot trust banks to hold their currency, they probably would not trust the bank lockboxes for the gold or diamonds.