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The main candidates, from left: Ahmed Shafiq, Mohammed Mursi, Abdel-Monein Abu al-Fotouh, Amer Moussa and Hamdeen Sabahi.
CAIRO -- The upcoming Egyptian elections have the potential to not only change Egypt, but the entire Middle East. There’s a strong possibility that decades of American policy in the region can be overturned. The elections have huge implications for the United States and even bigger ones for Israel. War and peace may be in the balance.
Here in our Cairo bureau as I listen to the boats float by on the Nile blasting music as revelers enjoy the city before it’s clogged by voting with checkpoints, there’s talk that this could be a moment like 1979 in Iran, a possible 180-degree shift for the country and the Middle East. I’ll start at what’s immediately coming up.
On Wednesday and Thursday, Egyptians go to polls to elect a new president. First off, that’s big statement in itself. Egypt hasn’t elected a truly democratic leader in its 5,000 years of recorded history. This is the land of the pharaohs, the undisputed and often tyrannical God-kings. Then it was the land of the Romans, sultans, Mamluks, Khedives, kings, European-dominated governments and finally military rulers.
There are five main candidates who have a chance of winning the election. Egypt has a presidential system. The president runs the state. Who the president is matters profoundly. In no particular order, the candidates are:
Mohammed Mursi: Mursi is a leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood, or the Brotherhood for short, is an Islamic group founded in Egypt in 1928. It has been pursuing a secret campaign to take over the government since its creation. The Brotherhood wants a state that is modern, powerful, technologically advanced and Islamic. The Brotherhood is not the Taliban. It does not want to ban music and pull girls from school, but it does believe that Islam must be the core of politics and society. The Brotherhood’s slogan has long been “Islam is the solution.” In practice that means, if there’s poverty, the Brotherhood will look to Islamic principles of helping the poor to solve them. The Muslim Prophet Mohammed was a big believer in charity and firmly established helping those in need as a basis of the religion. If there’s disease, the Brotherhood sees Islam and its traditions as having a solution to that too. In questions of war and peace, the Brotherhood will study Islam and its history to determine if a potential conflict is just and warranted. For the Brotherhood, Islam is always the solution. It’s Islam uber alles. The Brotherhood is a politically astute group. It is calculating and slow moving, believing that the best way to gain power is by gradually winning political and social influence. The Brotherhood is the grandfather of nearly all Islamic movements. It is the mothership from which smaller, often more radical groups were born. Hamas in Gaza, for example, is a faction of the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood is also rich. Its finances are murky and secretive. The group has wealthy donors, especially in the Sunni Arab Gulf states.
According to some estimates, the Brotherhood has a million activists in Egypt. Mursi is the official brotherhood candidate, but would likely end up as the group’s “face man.” Mursi is not charismatic. He’s not a dynamic speaker. He wasn’t the Brotherhood’s first choice. The group initially wanted its powerful money man Khairat al-Shater, a business tycoon who manages the group’s wealth, to be its candidate, but he was disqualified on account of his prison record. Egypt’s military-backed presidents, including Hosni Mubarak, imprisoned many Brotherhood members, seeing the group as its biggest existential threat. Analysts say Shater, the Brotherhood’s supreme guide, and its leadership committee would end up being the real force behind Mursi, pulling the strings. Right after the revolution that toppled Mubarak, the Brotherhood said it would not present a candidate for president, but then broke its promise. A Brotherhood victory would be a total about-face for Egypt. Since the late president Anwar Sadat, Egypt has pursued a largely pro-American, Western-leaning policy. Egypt has maintained a peace treaty with Israel since March 1979, following the Camp David accords. The Brotherhood has already threatened to cancel the peace treaty if the United States stops providing the $2.1 billion of military and development aid Egypt has received annually since 1982. The Brotherhood now talks publicly about maintaining good relations with the United States, but at its core the group is not pro-American. The Brotherhood is actively anti-Israel. Egypt’s long-term relations with United States and short-term relations with Israel could be at risk if Mursi becomes president. Egypt is the biggest country in the Middle East. So goes Egypt, so goes the region. A dramatic shift in Egypt’s alignment would have global implications.
Photoblog: Egypt prepares for the post-Mubarak presidential era
Abdel Monein Abu al-Fotouh. Al-Fotouh was a member of the Muslm Brotherhood for decades. He’s a devoted Islamist. In fact, he was once of member of the even more radical Gamaa Islamiya (Islamic Group), the same organization of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind cleric imprisoned in the United States for masterminding the first attack on New York’s World Trade Center in 1993. Al-Fotouh left the Gamaa Islamiya for the Brotherhood. He then broke from the Brotherhood after the Tahrir Square revolution. The Brotherhood promised at the time not to run a presidential candidate. Al-Fotouh disagreed and launched his own campaign. His disobedience to the Brotherhood’s orders infuriated group’s tightly controlled hierarchy and Al-Fotouh was expelled from the Brotherhood. Since the revolution, Al-Fotouh has been trying to appeal to Egypt’s liberals and secularists. He says he’s still a member of the Brotherhood at heart, but wants a state where religion doesn’t drive all policy. It’s possible Al-Fotouh has a change of heart. Many of the Tahrir Square revolutionaries are taking al-Fotouh at his word. But is he really different, or just changing his tune to appeal to a broader base? Al-Fotouh, like Mursi, speaks about maintaining good relations with world powers, including the United States. During his campaign, however, Al-Fotouh called Israel “an enemy state.” Al-Fotouh is also now backed by hardline Islamists known as Salafists who want to live in a society modeled on the life of the Prophet Mohammed in the 7th century. The Salafists – many of them still followers of al-Fotouh’s old group, the Gamaa Islamiya -- want to roll back rights for woman and Christians. Critics say al-Fotouh is trying to be a candidate for everyone, telling revolutionaries and secularists he’s become one of them, while also appealing hardcore Islamists. He has tried to appeal to Christians and women by promising that he will consider appointing one of them vice president should he win. A victory for al-Fotouh would be a win for Islamists. Is he still member of the Muslim brotherhood in disguise? Would he make peace with the Brotherhood and return to their fold if he became president? Al-Fotouh likes to say Turkey is example Egypt could follow with an Islamist leader, but without Islamic fundamentalists deciding how people should live their daily lives. Critics say its sounds good, but that Egyptian Islamists are much more radical than their Turkish counterparts and that it’s hard to imagine that after decades as a dedicated member of the Brotherhood that al-Fotouh could really have changed fundamentally. The questions about al-Fotouh’s true beliefs are unlikely to become clear unless he wins the election.
Video: A new role for women in post-Mubarak Egypt
Amer Moussa: Moussa is the 76-year-old former Egyptian foreign minister and secretary general of the Cairo-based Arab League. He is a seasoned and internationally respected statesman. He’s well known and generally popular in Washington. Moussa is presenting himself as a steady hand, the candidate who can maintain Egypt’s international relations and not drive the country into isolation or deep into the fold of the Muslim world. Moussa has said publicly he has no intention of changing or eradicating the Camp David accords with Israel. He is dedicated to close ties with the United States. Moussa’s main problem is his association with the former Mubarak regime. Even though he wasn’t involved in the crackdown and killing of activists during the revolution, he was a key Mubarak associate for decades. Critics call Moussa part of the “fulool,” a word that means “remnants.” It is a disparaging term. It is almost like rubbish or trash. Critics say Moussa is just another fulool of the Mubarak regime that the revolution swept away. Moussa’s biggest rivals are the Islamic candidates Mursi and al-Fotouh. Moussa’s Islamist opponents have tried to depict him as a drinker who is close to Israel and the United States. Moussa believes Egypt is at a crossroads and that voters can pick him to promote stability or Islamists to change the country’s course in a precarious new direction.
Ahmed Shafiq: Shafiq is the ultimate “fulool” candidate. He was the last prime minister appointed by Mubarak. Shafiq was, like Mubarak, an air force commander. Shafiq still defends Mubarak. Shafiq is presenting himself as “Mr. Security.” After the revolution Egyptian police were discredited. They were seen as the henchmen of the Mubarak regime. For the past year, the police have largely been absent from the streets. With the police gone, murder, rape, kidnappings, car-jackings and antiquities’ theft have all risen dramatically. Shafiq says he’ll restore order in 24 hours. He’s the strongman candidate. His message appeals to some Egyptians fed up with the deteriorating security situation. Critics say the revolution replaced one dictator in Mubarak and that electing Shafiq would simply be bringing in another one.
Hamdeen Sabahi. Hamdeen Sabahi is popularist. He appeals to the country’s poor. Economically, Sabahi is a socialist who sees Egypt’s greatest strength as its legions of rural and urban poor. Politically, Sabahi is a Nasserist, or a follower of the tradition of the late Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser. Nasser was a champion of Arab unity and a believer in pan-Arab power. Nasser firmly believed that if Arabs were to unite, they could become a powerful economic and political bloc that could break free of a Middle East many Egyptians see as dominated by American and Israeli interests. Nasser was no friend of the United States. He aligned Egypt with the communist Soviet Union and launched a failed war against Israel. When Nasser died, his successor Anwar Sadat re-orientated Egypt’s economic and politics policies by building close ties with Washington and forging a peace treaty with Israel. Sabahi’s victory could mean that Egypt’s four-decade-long Western orientation would shift again, reverting to a populist form of pan-Arabism. Sabahi has had a recent surge in popularity and was recently supported by 400 famous Egyptian actors, artists, writers and journalists.
On the first anniversary of the uprising that toppled Hosni Mubarak's regime, hundreds of thousands poured into the revolution's symbolic center, Cairo's Tahrir Square. NBC's Ayman Mohyeldin reports.
The likely outcome
What’s likely to happen? None of the five candidates are likely to win an outright majority when voting closes at 8 p.m. Cairo time on Thursday evening. To win, a candidate needs more than 50 percent of the votes. It’s widely expected, however, that each of the five leading candidates will win between 10 to 30 percent of the vote. Mursi for example could win 20-25 percent, Moussa might take another 20 percent, Al-Fotouh perhaps 20 percent and so on. Since none of the candidates would have the more than the fifty percent needed for a victory, there would be a run-off.
The run-off would work as follows: The two candidates with the highest number of votes -- say Mursi with 25 percent and perhaps Moussa or al-Fotouh or Sabahi with another 20 percent or so – would face each other. The run-off election would take place on June 16-17. The winner of the runoff would become Egypt’s next president, starting his four-year term starting on June 30. Once the new president assumes office, the military council – the leadership committee of generals that has been administering Egypt since the revolution – would dissolve. Egypt’s first democratically elected president in its history would then run the country and its powerful, US-armed military.
Who’s winning?
Opinion polls have been all over the map. Many polls put Moussa ahead. The Brotherhood says Mursi is in the lead. The polls do not seem reliable. Political analysts I’ve spoken to believe Mursi, even though he’s uncharismatic, is likely to win enough votes to secure a place in the run-off. After all, the Brotherhood has a million activists get out the vote, a grassroots support base that’s unmatched by any other candidate. The run-off, according to some analysts, would therefore be between the Brotherhood’s Mursi and someone else. It’s anyone’s guess who that someone else might be. That’s when Egyptians’ will have to make an incredibly important choice. Assuming Mursi is a candidate in the run-off, analysts say the tale of the tape might be like this.
If the run off is between the Brotherhood’s Mursi vs Amer Moussa or Ahmed Shafiq, analysts predict Mursi would win. Moussa and Shafiq would simply be too “fulool,” not different enough from Mubarak. It’s possible, however, the voters could have a change of heart and vote for the promise of stability over the certainty of change. It’s very hard to predict.
If the match up, however, is Mursi vs al-Fotouh or Sabahi, analysts say it’s likely Mursi would lose. The Brotherhood already controls parliament and voters might fear giving the long-banned group too much power. Again, no one really knows. What’s certain is that this is a critical time for Egypt, the Arab world, Israel and the United States. Egypt is at a crossroads. The path Egyptians chose is important. Egypt is the most populous Arab nation, the seat of Sunni Islamic doctrine and has tremendous political, religious and social influence on the rest of the region. For better or worse, it will lead the rest of the Middle East by example. So goes Egypt, so goes the region.
Read more on Egypt from NBC correspondents
More world news from msnbc.com and NBC News:
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- NATO summit prompts little buzz on streets of Kabul
- Chinese fishermen held by North Korea released
- US student dies after going swimming at Scottish beach
- Olympic torchbearers race to cash in
- A random act of kindness lifts spirits in London
Follow us on Twitter: @msnbc_world
Richard Engel is Chief Foreign Correspondent of NBC News
Leave a Comment:
Wow...I am the first comment. I am surprised there isn't hundreds of ignorant, rude, racist, xenophobic, and grammatically incorrect posts on here.
Dont worry I am here now! HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Wow, isn't? Aren't is grammatically correct!!!! That said, according to Einstein, when the solution is simple
God is answering, and I do not see Islam as the solution. Democracy is happening in the Middle East
whether some like it or not, so my guess would be Moussa, and I want to see Egypt aligned with
the United States and not Russia. A brilliant post, Richard!!!!!!!!!!!
Islam is a sick, evil religion and muhammad was a pedophile who took a 9 year old bride. hows that?
If it's not to your liking, don't worry some mindless foxbots will come by later to make it worse. dr alfred lanning has already found a way to blame obama. Congratulations dr on being the first moron to post.
You are welcome my liberal friend!
Looks like US will not be able to pay off Egypt to be nice to our pet, Israel. That was the only reason US kept giving billions of dollars every year to Mubarak's regime. Democracy can be a b..tch!
They should follow the lead of Catholic priest and prey on little boys. Which sounds like something a mysterious stranger would do. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Liam...WOW, isnt that wonderful.....Too bad that you had nothing to say....But, congratulations, you got those insults and name calling in.
2.1 billion in aid! I can't believe more people don't see the logic in Ron Paul's foreign policy. Let Islam have the hell hole and stop sending the money!
Phyllis:
"Democracy is happening in the Middle East whether some like it or not"
Not seeing it Phyllis. Islamists are not going to embrace democracy as we (or any sane person) know it. What I see are a multitude of Iranian style governments emerging. Not good for us, for Israel or democracy, and unfortunately I believe Russia has the upper hand withn their ties to Iran.
Max; goofy and irrelevant. The U.S. should invest in its own interests, and in the case of the Middle East dictators (especially like Mubarak) are better than whats coming.
Common Sense: That cat was let out the bag a long time ago. Ron Paul does'nt seem to get that. If we stop policing the world now (I wish we could), the world explodes!
It's George Bush's fault I know it!
lol
What Logic? Mr. Paul's plan has been tried before and failed. Hsitory is filled with failed inward looking leaders like him. His plan makes sense if you can or do over look how the real world operates. We are linked to the outside world in thousands of diffrent ways and that can not be undone no matter who holds office. The egyptians may get to find that out for themselves. A couple of these guys could be Muslum Ron Paul's.
Ignoring the world has never worked out well. On the other hand, neither has trying rule (or as some people call it, "policing") the world. Its a fine line, and difficult but not impossible, to engage the world but not come across as trying to be the world dictator.
@ Tod-279
The 2.1 billion is financing not policing. Not to mention, we are obviously failing with these resources. Stop giving them the money and put to use in our military or back home within our home security.
Gray beard,
It's oblivious all the money we have spent in Egypt has failed to change this backward land, or is about to fail. Therefore, it is idiotic and insane to continue on the same course.
common:
"Stop giving them the money and put to use in our military or back home within our home security"
Agreed, now.
But when Mubarak was in control it was in our best interest to keep him there (same with Pakistan). I think that with many of these country's we will end up cutting our losses (and good riddance). But at least we were able to keep them under wraps for a while. Make no mistake though, the place is a powder keg that, unfortunately, we will be dragged back into in the very near future.
Wherever Islam prevails, nothing else can exist. Not science; not freedom; not technological innovation. Nothing but more of the same ritualized oppression that's gone unchanged for generations.
If you think that's racist or xenophobic, then I'd say that you're just an blind, bleeding-heart apologist who's contributing more to a very clear and present crisis. I have no respect for your hurt feelings or snap-judgements, and the use of the word 'racist' has completely lost its effect.
the Real Struggle in Egypt (as in other countries) is between Tyranny ( its modern weapons of warfare -political instability and 'pro-democracy' movements ) - and Freedom,( from overseas hegemony and geo-political adventurism ). The hallmarks are always the same/ sow seeds of confusion, then doubt, then gather a multitude of selected candidates -who become beholden to the powers that lurk behind the scenes (usually in the form of foreign banking interests, etc.). The politics then become a way of installing puppet regimes that do the bidding of foreign interests. This particular ploy is often found in tandem with debt enshrinement and large media syndicates which control Newspapers, Radio and Television. This kind of subterfuge always comes with a happy face and a friendly handshake. It is insidious...and produces nothing but chaos and desecration of national sovereignty.
Tod-
Agreed... Then, when that "powder keg" threatens us, or becomes lit, then we take care of it with an act of congress. The way the constitution says it should be done!
So your telling me Sweden or Switzerland's neutrality has failed? It's easier for countries who are not the worlds economic and military leaders to have a policy of neutrality. What they think and do does not matter on the world stage, when America moves everyone is affected and has an opinion.
Looks like US will not be able to pay off Egypt to be nice to our pet, Israel. That was the only reason US kept giving billions of dollars every year to Mubarak's regime. Democracy can be a b..tch! - That "pet" is the only country in the middle east that doesn't chant death to America. We gave billions to a government that kept things stable, let's see how these elections turn out, my guess is Egypt becomes less stable, worse off economically, and more voilent towards other countries. If you think a war with Israel wouldn't have a negative impact on America your a fool.
I'd like to see a new no-nonsense policy from Washington
If you have terrorists planning/training aginst the U.S within your country's borders we will give you 1 weeks notice to act decisivley against them on your own. If you do not:
1) We will come in immediatley without asking
2) We will not be discriminatory (if your citizens hide them, too bad)
3) We will destroy them and leave
4) We will not rebuild your country, prop up your leaders, your miltary or police.
5) If, after we leave, you allow the terrorists back in, we will come back in and we will not be gentle.
6) We will not appologize!
mamby pamby whiney appologetic foreign policy just makes us look weak. Islam thrives on weakness, knock it off!!
Tod,
We might hurt someones feelings doing that. Seriously what would Europe think of us?
Brilliant tn. How did we raise up such a non-sensical, historically ignorant generation?
Now Logic, do I sound like the kind of fella that would care a lick about what those ungrateful, progessing right of a cliff Europeans think? If they, and the rest of the world want to start actually contributing to the policing the world so desperately needs, maybe then I'd care.
Note to MSNBC
For there to be a " struggle between secularism and political Islam". There most be candidate running who is in favor of a secular system of government. No such candidate exists, that wants to remove religion from Egyptian politics. Anybody running for office who wanted to exclude Islam is an apostate, worthy of death.
But why let reality get in the way of a good leftist delusion.
Kp,
Good reminder. I sometimes forget (don't know how) that MSNBC is prone to leaving out the obvious when it suits their ideology. Accept for a few of us, I guess they know their audience.
Mostly MSNBC comments are comedy, tragic, but comedy none-the-less.
Ironic that Egypt is locked in a struggle between the modern world and ancient superstition and so is the United States. We'll see if rational thought wins out in either country...
We have to also keep in mind that all politicians everywhere tell the voters what they want to hear. It is certainly possible that all these guys vary only slightly, but there is a chance that there is someone there who really wants to continue what the Arab Spring started and will remain religiously and politically neutral.
Thank you overlord for yet another brainless equivalency attempt. Your ilke's logic continues to be nonsensical and lazy.
Oh really Tod? Tell me the Christian "moral majority" isn't imposing their religious dogmatic beliefs on the rest of this country. Tell me they don't want to tell women what to do with their bodies. Tell me they didn't start wars in the name of Christianity across the Middle East. You don't even have to believe me, they claim this is a "Christian Nation" with great pride and admit to an agenda to write Christian dogma into law. This country is clearly struggling with exactly the same issues, albeit a different set of circumstances and a very different oppressive majority.
Your name calling may make you feel good but my comment was neither nonsensical or lazy, ironically yours is.
Don't be mislead by this propaganda designed to downplay the threat Islam poses in Egypt. We betrayed our ally , Mubarak , and now we are set to reap the whirlwind. The true slogan of the Muslim Brotherhood is as follows : " Allah is our objective! The Prophet is our leader! The Koran is our law! Jihad is our way! Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope! " Egypt will soon be an exporter of Islamic terror and an enemy of peace in the middle -east.
Yeah, elections, democracy. Unless they elect the 'wrong' candidate. Egypt is NOT the psychopathic force in the Mideast, as you all well know. Nor are Egypt's fascist monied supporters subverting democracy here in the U.S. And, whatever money we are giving to Egypt is just a political justification for giving 10 times more money and 20 times more lethal weaponry to the major belligerent and slaughterer in the area. Interesting article in the local republican propaganda rag this morning talking about the advanced diesel submarines that Germany has been forced to give away due to political blackmail. But, keep your eye on the victim, Egypt, and the real pathological perp can do whatever it wants. Poor America, blinded by a complete ignorance of history.
Organized religion will be the demise of mankind!
Allah will not look kindly on you.
Or in the case of Islam....unorganized religion
The candidate names listed looks like a terrorist hijacker flight itinerary from 9/11. Please tell me we will cut all aid and funding once the go back to the dark Muslim side.............
A struggle between democracy (in any form) to a barbaric, hateful, non-peace loving, pedophilia cult leadership/direction?
I know how this will turn out... And it won't be Democracy folks. Remember who you are dealing with.
flash8: Your struggle comment is a reference to the elections in Egypt? We have the same struggle here in the US and democracy is losing here too! And when you refer to pedophilia cult is that Islam or Catholicism?
Seven2Seven - Funny thing how different cultures have different naming conventions.
Marl,
How bout you take a look at the 20th century and tell us who was responsible for the 100's of million of murders (more than all of recorded history up till 1900). Tell you what Einstein, I'll give you a hint; Lenin, Stalin, Moa, Polpot, Hitler all secular!
Figures never lie, but liars sure can figure.
Stupid organized religion with their soap kitchens for the poor, their mission trips that build schools, water treatment equipment, medical supplies, and farming knowledge. I mean how can you not look at the Salvation Army and not think this is an evil cult? I wish these "organized religions" would stop feeding the homeless, and stop giving encouragement to the desperate. (SARCASM ALERT)
Does anybody seriously think that there will a fair election of anything? Get real this does not even work here in America.
Secondly, and more important, whoever will be the next Chief of Sand Dunes will make sure to put the squeeze on the US for money or cancel the peace treaty which in itself is not worth the paper it's written on.
Let's make sure Israel has all the weapons she needs to take care of the Muslim Brotherhood. Just another Hood in different colors, a Hood never the less.
Let's just see what those sand diggers come up with. Going by historical events, it will not be worth anything! They are losers and they know it.
Any extremist position, political or religious,is dangerous because they both involve a large amount of intolerance. We look at Egypt and ask questions about Islamic dominance and the proven track record of oppression in Islamic states, but fail to see the parallel in the extreme right of the GOP or the extreme left of the Democrats in a similar light. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Looks like US will not be able to pay off Egypt to be nice to our pet, Israel. That was the only reason US kept giving billions of dollars every year to Mubarak's regime. Democracy can be a b..tch!
Yeah max,
That statements just as goofy the second time around. Give us your solution Einstein!
What solution do we need? to Iran's nuclear program, or to them arming themselves? They have every right to do that IMO. We need to mind our own business, that is the real solution to our internal problems as well.
Iran gets nukes, thats your solution? More brilliance; the kind of brilliance that gets us all killed, thanks max.
Tod, N.Korea has nukes too, and US is not about to wage war on them... so why is Iran treated differently? Maybe because our pet Israel does not like it, despite having obtained nuclear weapons ILLEGALLY as well.
Aaahh, now I see; Young Max has been listening to his humanities professors. Ya know those clowns who think they know all about the world from the blather they hear in the bubble of like minded morons they work with. The real world awaits Max, check it out!
Max is so glad the people of Egypt, particularly the women and the Christians, are going to be oppressed because this article gives him the golden opportunity to bash Israel, the only democracy in the ME. A lot of the Jews in Israel were driven out of Egypt and other Muslim countries and are now in Israel.
Or else he's a Muslim posting in an attempt to practice takkiya--fooling the infidels to benefit Islam. One of the pillars of Islam.
If I'm reading the underlying issues correctly, we will have a Muslim Brotherhood President who will be controlled by the clandestine Muslim Brotherhood religious leaders.
What that means for future Egypt/American relations is probably pretty bleak, with the prospects for a war with Israel greatly increased.
So will we continue to give them $Billions each year in a vain attempt to 'buy peace', or will be decide that it's not a great idea to send our money to people who hate us?
Great "Change we can believe in" Obama.
Obama will send our money to them as long as he is allowed to do so...
You know they wont amount to anything when they label themselves Political Islam" except maybe for starting a War.
Hey Max...the difference is N. Korea is a bunch of A-Holes & Iran is a bunch of A-holes with an agenda. Namely to kill all the jews & all infidels as well. They don't care about the retaliation they'ed be subjected to resulting from their aggression because it will assure them of a trip to heaven with 47 virgins.
well if the brotherhood wins i think the US should stop all funding and instead shift all that funding to Israel. Honestly paying someone money so they will be peaceful and not try to attack and kill everyone is not a sustainable situation.. in fact it sounds more like blackmail or a ransom.. I dont buy my friends and if i did how good of a friend would they really be?
I wonder what some Administration officials and some of our "elite" elected Congressional Representatives who supported "Arab Spring in Egypt" are saying now ?
Not a dad gum thing.
Muslim Brotherhood, based on Sunni Saudi extremist Salaffi movement, will come to power sooner or later.
They will look to Quran and give answer to you!
Seems our countries aren't so far apart after all. They have fundamentalists trying to take over the country, and so do we. May be a difference in the degree, but in my opinion its not a good thing to have religious fanatics controlling civil law, regardless of which side of the Ocean you're on.
United States is being picked apart and separated as a result of multiculturalism. I wouldn't be surprised if our country is destroyed by Civil War.
Ughh. I would hate to be a mono-culture. Way too boring. I much prefer diversity. I think that xenophobia is doing more to destroy our country rather than multiculturalism.
Thanks bris for yet another dopey equivalence (radical Islam and Christianity). Its getting to where words no longer have meaning, sheesh.
Brisaber,
We can all enjoy diversity of people and culture without giving up our American way of life.
Keep in mind: Our nation is multi-ethnic and not multicultural
Brisaber, I agree. The leanings towards a theocracy anywhere is a destructive path.
Shared Nest,
You might want to read up on multiculturalism in France and find out how that is working out there.
Tod,
It might seem odd to you, but for non-religious folks (of which I am one), it all looks the same. As Brisaber said, it's a matter of degree, but the willingness to impose their beliefs and customs on others is exactly the same.
Yep, totally the same thing. Remember when Bush made different laws for Christians compared with everyone else like some of these candidates are talking about. Remember the debates of if women should have rights? Remember when our religious nuts said our courts should follow Biblical law? If we are so much alike why don't you move to Egypt where you can back the Socialist candidate without having to say he's not a socialist.
It is not a question of multiculturalism, it is a question of tolerance. Accepting others for who they are without demanding that they adopt your beliefs is one of the foundations for a true democracy with social equality. When you would deny others the same rights that you would reserve for yourself, your society will experience upheavals and protest (sound familiar?). Be it politics or religion, these are used too often to exercise intolerance against someone who has different ideas or beliefs. The only time intolerance is acceptable is in dealing with a value system that preaches harm or hatred of others.
Multiculturalism costs money to up keep a people, for example that refuses to learn English or abide by and support our American Constitution. Of course not all immigrants carry their cultural, politics and religion on their backs, but those that do are not a good fit.
English should be the official language in the United States.
JM,
It doesn't seem odd, it seems ignorant. There is no comparison between Christianity in the U.S. and Islam in the Middle East (governments religion, please?). Logic, the poster above and actual logic, make that pretty clear don't you think? Its like the dopey Hitler comparisons that are bantered around (always wondered why the more evil men like Stalin, Lennin, Moa are'nt used , but thats a different argument). They are equivelancies that don't make sense, and stifle real debate.
I did say there was a difference in the degree of fundamentalism, but the nature of the debate is the same. And I do know that evangelicals in this country have called for, no demanded, that more of our laws be based on their interpretation of the Bible. And they're willing to amend the constitution to make it so. Same color, different shade, if you like. And my opinion is that once religious fundamentalism is established in civil law, it is very difficult to climb out of that hole.
Bris,
Come on!! For the last 100 years we have been heading away from a Biblically based government (read our founding fathers, thats an undeniable fact). As far as the rest of your comments; its not a matter of degree, its not even in the same conversation! The percentages of people you are talkng about, even within the Christian community, who are advocating what you posted are totally fringe, and you know it!! The rights issues (women, other religions etc.) are completely different and not comparable to what is unfortunately a majority of the Middle East's citizens.
I'm sorry, but you and others who make such comparisons are either ignorant or radically overstating for political purposes. Personally, I wish you'd just knock it off, its emotional dribble that stifles real debate!
North Carolina and several other states have amended their state Constitutions to exclude an entire group of their citizens from marriage rights, based on their interpretation of the Bible. Santorum, a major Republican candidate for the office of President, stated he thought the separation of Church and State was overrated and undesirable, and the thought of it made him want to vomit. It is not so long ago that there were still laws in many states that excluded people from opportunities based on their race, and many people would like to return to those "good old days". People are still fighting to get their creation myths taught in schools as science. I beg to differ with you, but it is not so different, and it is not so fringe any more.
Yes, Bris, and I was horrified to hear that North Carolina has passed a law calling for gays to be executed...NOT!!! Stop comparing apples and oranges...or, rather, fried chicken and falafel.
Bris,
Marriage rights? 99.999% of all human history has recognised marriage as between a man and a woman, I hardly call that a Biblical mandate (even the notorious homosexuality of the Spartans and Greeks never considered homosexual marriage). 50 of this country believes it still, close to that in Europe, and the rest of the world (Christian and non-Christian) is probably in the range of 90%. So please don't try and invent some mythical right that Christians are trying to abolish.
"Separation of Church and State" is a 20th century invention (not found in the DoI or the Constitution). It really only takes some casual reading of those who wrote our founding documents to realize that today's notion of separation is turned upside down from what they had in mind.
Today: Church must stay out of all things government
Then: Keep government out our church (ya know the very reason most of them came from Europe in the 1st place.
"Creation Myths" I am science teacher with a degree in Earth Science and a masters in Environmental Engineering. I can assure you there are some serious challenges to Macro-evolution, and many are having to take a look back to intelligent design. That's where the evidence is pointing!
Dig deeper bris, your college professors often teach from an unchallenged echo chamber, and it seems you bought it.
"I can assure you there are some serious challenges to Macro-evolution, and many are having to take a look back to intelligent design. That's where the evidence is pointing!"
And I can assure you I feel sorry for your students. There is no physical or scientific evidence that "points to" the "creation" myth (now called "intelligent design"). I challenge you to provide some.
Your view of the separation of church and state is exactly backwards. It was the church's dominance over the political systems in Europe that the pilgrims fled from. Today we are struggling to keep the government out of the church (i.e. the contraception mandate, gay marriage, etc.). You need to actually read the material you are claiming to have read... or don't read it so casually....
If your critical thinking skills are "typical" for a school teacher.... well....that explains a lot of things.
My point only being that religion is currently being used to promote legislative and political changes on society in the US. I am not passing judgment on whether the actions were right or wrong (I'll save that for a later debate, lol).
>You may say that a ban on gay marraige is not based on the religious views, but that is not what the vast majority of people campaigning for it were saying. (And while I'm at it Cassandra, there are extremist Christian groups that promote capital punishment for gays). All I see is that a majority group is seeing fit to exclude those in a minority, and they are basing their claims on the Bible.
>The First Amendment was designed specifically to prevent the government from making laws regarding the establishment of a state Church. You are right - people fled Europe because their governments persecuted certain faiths. Not just Catholic, by the way, but also Protestant. It is precisely because in those states the established Churches had such a stranglehold on politics that the First Amendment was created.
> I am very, very familiar with both the pros and cons of evolutionary theory and the so-called Intelligent Design philosophy. But one thing stands clear: evolution is the only theory with any kind of scientific evidence. Simply put, there is not any scientific evidence that there was a guiding intelligence. There is also no scientific evidence supporting any kind of creation act. Evolution is certainly not fully understood, but it is scientific, in that evidence can be challenged, reviewed, and the theory revised. Creation theory, or Intelligent Design cannot. So it should not be taught as science. Teach it as philosophy if you will, but it is not science. As a teacher, you should understand the difference between science and philosophy.
Many of you seem to think I am trying to compare Islam with Christianity, and therefore justify the Muslims. Not at all. My only point is that we must be careful to avoid falling into the same trap. The attempts to turn the US government into a Christian entity parallel those of Muslims to turn their governments into Islamic entities. It's very easy to cricize the flaws in someone else but ignore the flaws in our own society. Or to put it another way: "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
At least I can discuss/argue with you. Many are nearing at least 21st century ICT age.
In case of Muslim nations, especially Sunni Saudi extremists like Salaffi, Wahhabi, Muslim Brotherhood and others, one can't even raise a voice of dissent!
They are fasting running backwards and there will be Sharia laws, continuous jihads and inventing of infidels.
Pakistan is the classical example.
Can you have a Bible in Saudi Arabia?
Can you burn Quran openly without many troubles in the US?
Bris,
"The attempts to turn the US government into a Christian entity parallel those of Muslims to turn their governments into Islamic entities"
That's where we disagree, I see the past 100 years as "progressing" away from what clearly were laws and government philosophies largely influenced by Biblical Christianity. I'm not promoting Christian government or a particular denomination (clearly what our founding fathers feared), but I am not so foolish as to believe that we were founded on any other philosophy, or that our founding fathers did'nt clearly advocate the morals represented there-in (even Non-Christians like Jefferson and Franklin agreed with that).Where we mostly disagre is that I think your copmparisons (and others who invoke Hitler or the taliban) are wildly overstated.
Micro-evolution is established (testable theory) science. Macro is not (a theory msut be testable, without contrdiction, macro has many). Many prominant Scientists (non-Christian and non-creationist) are following the evidence where it is increasingly leading, Design! You can deny that fact or pretend that they are full of hooey, but it is a rapidly growing position trending away from uniformitarian macro-evolution, and science is driving it. I am not promoting teaching Biblical (or any other religious views) creationism. I am saying that Intelligent design is not a philosophy, and that at present it has as much veracity as Macro-evolution, and has a place in what we teach.
Dma,
Seriously? Is that your position: You are right, I am wrong and therefore I am a horrible teacher and influence on my students? Typical, brainless emotional lefty response. How does one debate such nonsense?
Tod,
You show a profound ignorance of evolutionary theory, so much so that I sincerely hope science isn't
one of the things you teach. Your odd idea that a “theory of microevolution” is scientific but a “theory of macroevolution” is not, is false for the simple reason that these are not (and have never been) separate theories. There is a single theory of evolution, supported by a veritable mountain of multiple independent lines of evidence. “Microevolution” and “macroevolution” are not separate phenomenon, they are merely points on the same line. The exact same mechanisms are at work in both processes: macroevolution
is a consequence of the accumulation of microevolutionary changes.
Saying I believe microevolution is real but macroevolution is not is like saying I believe in hills, but not
mountains. They are the same, only the scale is different.
If you want them to be separate (and I suspect you do, and for reasons likely relating to a religious
belief), you will need to come up with a mechanism to halt the accumulation of microevolutionary changes. No such mechanism is known to exist; you could become quite famous in discovering one!
As for “Intelligent Design”, it is not a theory in the science sense of the word. It has not attained
anything remotely near the level of acceptance as the theory of evolution, and support for it is not “growing”. As science it is a failure: name one active research program in the field—if that's too difficult, cite one peer-reviewed original research paper published, say, in the last two years, that supports ID.
Its only success has been in resurrecting the mortibund creationism movement in a more “science-y”
form. That, by the way, did not even fool the G.W. Bush-appointed federal judge in the Dover trial, which should have been ID's shining moment but instead was a resounding and humiliating defeat.
blah, blah blah, "I hope your not teaching our youth this stuff" yep its worked out so much better to tell them they are aimless, purposeless, blobs of flesh, huh? Beliefs have consequences Einstein. Faith in the untestable hypothesis of macro-evolution has been a political calculation (study Social Darwinism), which never should have been forced upon us without hard evidence.
Testable and untestable; 5th grade science CBR. One we can observe happening, the other is hypothesis with some supportive tests and lots of unsupportive. Your ignorance of the difference between the two only shows you've had lazy professors. (despite your brainless hill/mountain analogy)
P.S. might I suggest you spend some time reading the work of some real scientists (micro-biology would be a good start), cause bone-diggers and anthropologists are gonna leave you wallowing in your ignorance (both scientific and political).
CBR
“Microevolution” and “macroevolution” are not separate phenomenon, they are merely points on the same line. The exact same mechanisms are at work in both processes: macroevolution
is a consequence of the accumulation of microevolutionary changes.
Easily said, but true science has to prove that this actually happens/happened. I must say, your belief that they use the "same mechanisms" is absurd. Micro we can observe, Macro we have not and are simply speculating. Why do you think so many evolutionary scientists dabble in goofy hypothesis like panspermia or punctuated equilibria? The guys who are doing the research (not gen-ed college professors) know darn well they have a problem!
Uh . . . duh . . . gee, didn't see this coming.
Yup, end, that's what we get for blowing up Egypt with no plan to shape what takes Mubarek's place. That's our unleader-in-chief, for you. Completely unqualified to be President. Thinks all world events should and do just happen on their own....
That would be Regan, Bush one and Two. There are the ones that made this mess. Murbark was they lap dog. It was only under Clinton that any pressure was applied to change. Obama just end up cleaning up theier 30 year old mess. Blame him is like blame the EMT that come to car crash for the Crash.
I can't believe anyone cannot see what OBAMA is up to, he is a Muslim Socialist, and is trying to destroy American. His wife hates anyone that is not black, see book written by former secret service personnel as well as other presidents. You apparently are uneducated and have no knowledge of how economics or the world as a whole works. We have devils among us and one is OBAMA. You need to read what is really going on if you can read at all and stop listening to just anyone talk.
Gray, the jury's WAY out on the entire "Arab spring." I guess the proof will be in the pudding, as it's said. Obama "cleaning up a mess" is laughable to me. He is the antithesis of a leader. That's what electing some no-experience political hack will get all of us, and you can see it from the economy to the world reacting to his lack of leadership on the global stage. Those of you who still support Obama scare the hell out of the rest of us.
ROMNEY 2012
Gray Beard...Obama is not good....His main achievements are this...Obamacare, which will not change how much it will cost the taxpayers and it provides for a group of individuals who are suppose to oversee what you can recieve for treatment and if you should need any....you could be dead before they deciede...He has signed into law the Federal Restricted Buildings and Grounds Improvement Act of 2011, which means when you protest, demonstrate in an undefined area against any person who has Secret Service protection though it be peaceful, you can be charged with a felony, a felony conviction is a minimum of 1 year a 1 day in prision and a felony conviction ruins your life. The law violates your first amendment rights. He cannot stand on his own two feet and say he made a mistake, he finds a way to lay the blame else where, example, he said construction, state and local governments were a drag on the economy..So you can vote for him again..but one thing you need to think about, is the U.S. going to look like Greece in a few years?
Don't you see that right there is your problem? Listen to Fox channel and that's what they want to do - to SCARE you, scare the simple people into their way of thinking. They try to scare the hell out of you so you won't see the bigoted failures of the right wing agenda.
TARZAN, KING OF MARS/2012
Thirsty Drunk....Who says the liberal media is right? YOU? Because you figure everyone should work so others do not have to and that the government should be socialistic? And because Fox is more to the right, all the liberals out there go push the panic button..Be realistic and keep an open mind.But from what most Libs write that will never happen..They are the ones who are scared, scared because someone else has a different point of view..
I'm not scared, I did not say anyone was correct. I just said that Fox seems to always resort to scare tactics, that's all. You were the one that said people who support the President of the United States scare the hell out of you.
There ya go.
SENSIBLE CANDIDATE 2012
Nice revision of history there gray. 30 year of stability has been a mess huh? Instability; you aint seen nothin yet!!
Stan your side would be more successful if they would just do what Egypt does not... just keep all the moral religious stuff out of politics. I disagree with trickle down economic theory but if you guys would just drop the defunding of planned parenthood, passing voter suppression legislation, denying gays their rights etc, if you would just keep it all to economics and defense you would get a little further.
If there is one huge red flag that this election should fly for us is that religion and legislating morality is dangerous and a very real threat to freedoms.
Egypt's elections: A struggle between secularism and political Islam -- and how it may transform the Middle East - Hey Obozo how's that Arab Spring workin out for ya. Same as that hope and change?
If you don't like the Arab Spring, how come you don't criticize Bush's support for it?
Dr. Alfred Lanning banned, rereg of multiple accounter ren-755775.
Like secularism stands a chance in that lunatic asylum.
Which as been said of Congress (lunatic asylum)
Probably no greater chance than here.
Us Inter-nuts were the first to point out that the Arab Spring would soon prove to be nothing but an Extremist Muslim Winter.
Have you ever travelled to Egypt? Do you know how people live there? Ya, I didnt think so. I have... I have a fairly large group of friends there, now. Funny thing is, they see America and its choice as much the same, only supplant "Muslim Fundementalist" with "Christian Fundementalist". Otherwise, aside from the interest inspiring news bits, most ppl in Egypt are going to the beach during the day, hanging out with friends, driving their cars to work, hanging out again with friend's in the clubs at night.... Checking out their profiles on facebook, playing video games, going to bed in their air conditioned apartments at night. You'd find Egypt isn't that different from America, but so many of you are so busy being afraid of democracy possibly choosing something that you don't agree with or that might not be in your best interest. Well, news flash, America has been forcing Egyptians to live under the rule of leaders of supported American interests at the expense of their own for decades. The way you see places like Egypt, Pakistan, etc are much the same as the way many of them see you. A country with its share of religious zealots, producing roughly the same number of terrorists and extremists, ridden with a large and ever growing population of poor.
Btw, the big difference between a convervative (of the american type.. conservative and liberal mean opposite things across the water, lmao) extremist like a Christan zealot, and a liberal extremist, is what unites them. Christian zealotry is exclusive, judges others unworthy if they don't live a certain way and believe in Jesus, and, by their own beliefs, thinks that anyone who does not disagree with that world view should be and will be destroyed.
What unifies liberal attitudes on the other hand these days is, ofc, the opposite. Inclusiveness. They don't care WHAT you do, as long as it doesnt affect them. You can be a Christian fundementalist. Just keep it off their front yard, the side of their freeway, etc. They don't care what ANYONE does, as long as everyone recieves equal respect. They aren't longing for, expecting or even hoping for the destruction of anyone. They seek to understand others, because they, by definition, feel all should have their right to pursue happiness as they see fit.
Is there really much argument which truly exemplifies liberty? One simply supplants a controlling government for their religious leader, the other simply understands that for order, there must be some government.
This is one of the more concise and objective articles out there on events in Egypt. As self-evident as it may seem, many observers (including those sitting in and around the Oval Office) have been unwilling to call a spade a spade on the Aboul Fatouh campaign, and somehow hoping beyond hope that a tried-and-true Islamist can somehow morph into an enlightened liberal. Engel is correct in stating that "A victory for al-Fotouh would be a win for Islamists." All in all, the situation is not good. #more
When it comes to any revolution in the middle east, we should really be careful what we wish for. Sometimes the evil you know, is better than the evil you don't. I'm not saying the people of Egypt are evil, just that if religion drives all government policy, any conflict becomes religious as well. Dangerous stuff.
This is one of the more concise and objective articles out there on events in Egypt. As self-evident as it may seem, many observers (including those sitting in and around the Oval Office) have been unwilling to call a spade a spade on the Aboul Fatouh campaign, and somehow hoping beyond hope that a tried-and-true Islamist can somehow morph into an enlightened liberal. Engel is correct in stating that "A victory for al-Fotouh would be a win for Islamists."
I was impressed with the report as well. It has been so long since I read a decent report.
What ever the outcome, I wish the Egyptians the the best and hope they do not get a repressive government that turns the country into a huge basket case.
Aren't we seeing the start of something like that here ...only with christianity
EXACTLY!
You read my mind, Amunaka
I know what you mean! When I think of the number of beheadings that have taken place in the name of Christianity reported since the invention of the printing press, the number of women faces burned by acid thrown by "pious" Christian men, the female genital mutilation that goes on daily in Christondom, the horrifying screams of Christian masses angry that an insulting caricature of Jesus is published.......it makes me want to puke!!
To..steve"""
Give em half the chance.....
steve,
Just give them time. They're just getting started.
Of course that is hyperbole on my part, but only intended to match your own.
@Amunaka- Thank God we have the US Constitution to protect us. The First Amendment protects you from religious intolerance, and the Second Amendment is there to force the government to follow the First. It's the left that wants to ignore your right to have the means to defend yourself, don't forget that.
I would much rather live in a Christian nation than a Muslim nation. I've lived in Egypt, Saudi, Afghanistan for a few years of my life. I've seen first hand how Islam forces submission through fear and violence. I don't get the same vibe when I visit the Vatican.
If Islam is the religion of peace, the olive branch it extends is sharpened to a point and back by explosives.
You guys are about 1000 years too late. Christianity already went through all these motions in the middle ages. What we are experiencing now is merely an aftershock.
Arab world is now copying Europe step by step, they are only a 100 years behind.
Study what was happening in Europe 100 years ago, and you will be able to see what's coming in Middle East next year.
Amunaka
From the HOLY QURAN .NB. The word "in fight" does not exist in the original Arabic text , you can delete it.
Please , give me something similar from the New Testament which the Christians follow.
This is another example from the Holy Quran .
Muslim extremists will take over, but we all knew that. This will ultimately be a huge problem for the U.S. and all of our allies. Terrorism is and will now flourish way beyond what we think we know of it.
With White House Stinky (aka BO) at the helm, it'll come that much quicker.
WOW! I am very impressed by the author Richard Engel. This guy really did his homework writing this article. This guy blows away any other analysis I have come across in both the East and West. Well done sir. Well done
Richard Engel has done a great job throughout his assignment in the middle east. I feel sorry for the little guy, though, he never seems to get to come home!
Richard Engel is a true journalist in a time when they're becoming rare, at least here in the US. I always expect his articles and reporting to be factual, relevant, and thorough. I doubt I'll ever be disappointed. Keep at it, and stay safe, Mr. Engel!
Richard Engel is a very well respected journalist who stood his ground and reported the uprising from Tahrir Square. A "Boots on the ground" Brass Balled man who's work ethics and integrity are going to rival Edward R. Murrow. When he and I meet during second Iraq war he was a Freelance journalist who came to report as much truth as the U.S. would allow. In my opinion one of the true leaders in Middle East reporting. Head Down, Helmet ON.
it was a very good article lots of who when why
Uhm, Engel has been reporting from that area since the original overthrow in Tunisia. He was standing up on buildings in Egypt while the Egyptians rioted for change. He's been there the whole time. And he works hard to give an accurate report.
P.S. In an unrelated story, there's another real reporter in Indiana on one of the TV stations. I got a video of him giving an investigative report on theft of tax payer money via the IRS by illegal immigrants. Look him up on youtube. It's a stunning report and the IRS even admits to knowing about it.
but i digress... I was just impressed that it was a real investigative report of our government.
@somebefuddledperson....I seriously doubt that many here will take your advice and check out what you say.
Befuddled - Actually I already watched that report, and it was enough to make my blood boil.
I love Richard Engel,I read everything he writes,and he is always fair,he is one of the best,hats off to you,Richard.
I thought Saudi Arabia was the center of Sunni theology and doctrine? Can anyone tell me what product Egypt produces? Anyone?
Google it.
egypt is the bread basket of the mideast saudi arabia is where the 2 holy cities r but egypt 4 thousands of years has been at the fore front of relgious thinking it was a big center of Christain thought 4 a long time followed by conquest the relgious thought switched 2 the new faith the scholars from saudi go 2 egypt 2 study
Looks like US will not be able to pay off Egypt to be nice to our pet, Israel. That was the only reason US kept giving billions of dollars every year to Mubarak's regime. Democracy can be a b..tch!
You need to read the Bible, anyone against Isreal is against GOD. We have always supported Israel and that is why we have had such a blessed life. They will be our own true friend in the end. We need to stop all money going into any country, such as Egypt is going to demand we send them 2.5 B or million dollars or they will stop being our friend. I say stop sending it, who cares, build up our military, send Muslims home and protect ourselves.
Sonya - you can believe whatever you want, and support whoever you want - just do it with your own money. US should not give money to Egypt, Israel, or any other freeloader in the Middle East.
sonja-909319 Amen!
Sonja......the Constitution is the governing document for the United States, not the bible. That fact is clear and unequivocal.
God: " Ok here it is folks, I know that I made you all, your all my kids but.... I really like the Israel kids the best. No particular reason but lets just say if the palace was on fire I would be throwing them through the window first. So its your responsibility to make sure they have enough cash (I can create worlds but never really got the art of printing green backs.) and that they are protected from my other kids who took more of a liking to their Uncle Allah. If you do this I will spare you and when you die, I might give you a room in one of my hotels up here. Oh and by the way, I am an omniscient, omnipotent all loving God. Out!"
And we all know that if your daddy likes your little brother better, you are simply obligated to beat the crap out of your little brother at every opportunity.
Too bad the little brother is all grown up and learned to stand up for himself without running to daddy.
Is it spelled Musri or Mursi? The article has it both ways. Come on.
Misery.
O bl mm r is doing what he can to further the Isla mic cause....he wants to become the leader of the world...."The Great Pretender"...............
it's obvious from your post that the inmates are running the asylum. And your new hood and robes are being delivered today
heehee!
Its people like this that will be the downfall of America
Interesting that the first candidate mentioned and the one given the largest write-up is a leading member if the Islamic Brotherhood. It's easy to tell what the liberals in this country are hoping for in Egypt. If Egypt becomes an Islamic "republic", the reign of the pharaos and even the Roman occupation will be about as democratic as Albania was under the Soviet Union. Pity the people of Egypt. I fear that they are jumping from the frying pan into the fire, pushed along by the anti-Israeli sentiment of our current government. Pathetic!!
I don't believe they need any pushing from the US, or anyone else for that matter, lol. Common sentiment in Egypt has always been very distrustful of Israel. I do agree that if they go wholesale with the Islamic Brotherhood, it will be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I'm guessing the frying pan wasn't very good for most of the Egyptians, though.
But that is their choice. That is both the strength and the weakness of real democracy. Real democracy is based on majority rules, and if you don't like what the majority of Egyptians want, it is unlikely you will like the results. That is a key reason why we are a republic, and not a true democracy.
Religion is nothing but a pain in the butt, everywhere. Religion is the most discussing thing or idea I've ever run across. It beats people down from what they want to be. It tells people to believe in a book written by men over hundreds of years. Here is what George Carlin said and he put it all in a nutshell.
Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you. --George Carlin
Steven Ohio
George C. had it twisted and so do you. Do some homework on the subject and listen to the words of someone other than Carlin. Take a good look at Christianity and Islam. Which one would you rather have authority over you? A religion that is an enforcer, or freedom to worship as you choose. If these Muslims continue to take over and destroy, which they would love to do with us, then you will eat your words. Look what they have already done to our country in the way of terrorism. They hate us and our way of life. Belief in God and Christian principals is holding this country together. It is what our founding fathers based our government on. Instead of wasting your time denouncing religion, start praying that Egypt will elect the right person.
You need to do your homework Steven, where do you think you can from monkeys, well who created monkeys, they did not just appear. Religion is what American was based on and it will be so in the end. Muslims hate us, for they are a cult, not a religion. Religion is why we have been blessed for so long because we do believe in GOD. George Calin needs a wake up call and apparently so do you.
You should give George Carlin that wake up call, sonja. Just make sure to keep calling until he picks up.
How about None of the Above?
That would be a nice trick considering he's been worm food for some time now.
Spot on Steven!
Don't let unintelligent bible thumpers like Sonja and RetiredDar dissuade you.
retireddar-I would rather have NEITHER religion have authority over us. If christians truly had authority over us homosexuals would be jailed or executed, women would not be able to vote, and mixed race relationships would be outlawed. Belief in god and christian principles is holding this country BACK.....not together. Our founding father's did not base our government on belief in god and christian principles. They based our government on enlightenment principles and Greek democracy. Your ignorance of history is frightening.
Sonja-Islam is a cult and christianity is not?? At their core they are identical. America was never based on religion. It always amazes me how the most religious are also the least educated when it comes to religion and it's history. Muslims hate christians to the same extent that christians hate muslims.
sonja-909319
You should stay away from your computer. Every time you type something you make God cry.
Corona, you were describing what would happen if extremist MUSLIMS ruled America...because it is happening in many Muslim countries. They do not forbid racially mixed marriages, true...but they are less tolerant of interfaith couples and same sex couples would indeed be executed.
I hope that we get our soldiers out of Afghan very soon... looks like we're going to end up at war with Egypt et. al over Israel at some point very soon. I'm sure one of the first acts their new leadership will have will be to get rid of Israel, and we're up to our eyeballs in it.
I wouldn't worry about Israel. they have nukes and they will proactively use them. The big issue is we need to be energy dependent and quick. I am not a fracking oil freak but we need to switch to natural gas, frack if we really need to and use it just in the boundaries of the U.S. and everyone get on the stick and develop other energy technologies.
Islam = Pig S()t
That IS the correct equation. It's explained here. http://cleantechnica.com/2010/04/16/whod-laughing-now-scientists-make-crude-oil-from-pig-manure/
Wouldn't it be a hoot if we get our oil from pig s()t...past, present, and future.
Is our present administration still celebrating the overthrow of Mubarek??? The hated Mubarek that was our friend and ally for so many years?? And, to be replaced by such a wonderful situation....
Mubarek was corrupt and kept the people suppressed. Perhaps the people will decide to go Islamic and if they get repressed by the Brotherhood, they can throw them out. Egypt is not Iran.
Ah yes, the old corrupt and suppressing the people story. Egypt had grown a lot in economy and opportunity for its people. Progressive governments in that area must keep a certain control because their citizens contain some of the most bloodthirsty and radical in the world....But, never mind the good stuff...you are now supporting the non corrupt government and they surely will never suppress anyone...right??? That corrupt and suppressing crap always plays well with our left and of course the media....
We are due for another world war. This will happen as soon as someone takes substantial action against Israel. NATO will step in the whole world will go to war. It's just a matter of time. The only difference is WW3 will have nukes as a big component; worse than WW2.
Well there probably needs to be some thinning of the population. We're getting close to critical mass I figure in any case.
Secular leadership does not guarantee liberty, equality, or justice, but it is ultimately the only system in which these things can thrive. The dictatorship of the majority, religious or otherwise, is often the greatest threat in a young, post-revolutionary democracy or republic.
The pattern has been the same for many decades: the US backs a not-so-palatable dictator in order to keep an even more hostile and dangerous group from taking over and destroying US "interests" (interests being a very complicated concept). When that dictator falls, the anti-American fanatical group that has been waiting in the wings moves in (be it communists, socialists or religious fundamentalists). So the American left wing illusion that a dictator is falling, and a glorious, downtrodden democratic movement is triumphantly marching arm in arm to democratic nervana is -- as usual -- a pipe dream. It's all a power game, and it's one that America is losing.
Jasperark, it should be a morals game, not a power game. Lead by example and people will follow.
Jasper,
it does not matter what we want. Egypt is not our country, not our responsibility, and we have no right to affect their elections in anyway. How would you like it if, say, Russia or Britain or Israel had the deciding say in who was elected? How would you like having the same American President for 40+ years?
We need to get out of the Coup game and just let the politics take their course. Mubarak was corrupt, he got that way because of Us influence. He had been in office 40 years and I am sure some, if not most, of the 10 elections were not legitimate victories. He thought he would be in power till the day he died regardless of anything that happened and it went to his head and he stopped listening to the people that really matter; those in the middle and on the bottom.
Every citizen of a country, even if they are not a democracy or will change from democracy, deserves the right to choose the future of their country. How that change happens is the limiting factor. If they have to rise of and unseat a dictator they eventually will, if they have to force a politician out of his position it will happen, if a Coup is the only thing that will remove a dictator one will eventually succeed.
If we hold our own democracy as highly as most of us think we do we would be applauding the fact that Egypt has, for the first time in likely 32 years, being given a change at a free and fair election and not worrying about some fake sensationalism that if Egypt turns into A Islamic state that the world is going to end or some other inane crap.
Egypt going Islamic is not going to change much. Here in the Us Islam is misunderstood at a fundamental level because of fear mongers that turn it into the boogeyman of our society. They say it was Islam itself, and not the people behind the attacks, that caused 9/11 to happen. If guns do not kill people, if people kill people, then the same must be said for any religion. Religions do not kill people, people who twist a religion in order to justify horrible acts kill people.
Islam can be interpreted in many different ways just like any Western religion. It has both a violent side and a charitable side. Islam is like a mixture of both the Old Testament and New Testament Christianity. The average Muslim is not going to kill you because of their religion if they see you in a Muslim country. If this was true our military would have been under constant attack from everyone in Iraq and Afghanistan. The actual situation was and still is the completely opposite of that, we have just overstayed and various scandals and appalling acts have occurred and damaged our military's reputation both there and here at home. They want us to leave, but that is not the same as saying they did not want our help in the first place.
But to get back on point even if the Brotherhood does take over they are not a radical Islamist group like Hammas or the Taliban, they do not believe that they should go to war without proper political justification. So what if they no longer want to be allies with us, that is their right, the citizens right, to choose but that does not automatically mean they become our enemies. Just because one is not an ally with us does not make then an enemy of our country.
Islam is just a religion, like Judaism, like Christianity, like Hinduism, like Buddhism. All religions can be used improperly and be used to justify crimes against Humanity and more often then not some of these religions actually caused massacres themselves. The Salem Witch trials were an ancient war against free thinking Women by the Vatican, the Crusades are another example of Christian sanction violence. Any Christian will tell you that these were not caused by their religion but by the mistakes and wrongs of the men at the head of said religion. No one alive believes that the Crusades of Witch hunts were justified.
Islam has a similar issue to overcome. It has been demonized here in the West by politicians and talking heads because it is an effective tool of control because it causes fear. If you can make the populous logically believe that Islam itself is the reason we were attacked then you can use that idea to further say "if we do not do x Islam is going to attack us again". The Patriot Act, the NDAA (both of them), the weakening of civil liberties, the propensity to go to war, almost everything that has happened in this country over the last decade has been influenced by our irrational fear of Islam and the politicians that prey off of it.
Read up on the Red Scare and McCarthyism. You will see very many similarities between the 50's and what is happening now with Islam. Switch out Communists for Islamists and it is basically a carbon copy of what is happening now.
Geo, just to start with...the Salem witch trials were run by Puritans, who despised the Vatican.
"Egypt going Islamic is not going to change much."
With all due respect, you show a profound naivite of the relationship between government and basic human psychology. Beliefs help guide behavior. One who prescribes to the tenets of communism will sometimes act in accordance to the benchmarks of this belief system. The same is true for religion, only this tendency is pronounced. In the psyche of many theists, nothing trumps the sacredness of God, God's word, God's solution. Egypt "going Islamic" with its government will have policy consequences. While not every political decision can be attributed to religion, Islam will more often be a direct - even linear - cause of laws set in Egypt. Those laws, as the author suggests, will radiate outward to the world.
With that said, you and I have a judgment to place on these events. If you judge an Islamic Egypt to be a good thing, so be it. I disagree with your opinion. In this, maybe I am wrong. But the fact remains that beliefs have behavioral consequences. Religion/Beliefs can and DO change things.
Freethinker,
only fanatical followers of a religion think in the way that you just described. Most people can filter out the BS in a religion, like for example Islam's call to kill infidels. Nearly all Muslims do not actively go out and kill people who are not Muslim. It is only the fanatics that are hell bent on that particular commandment. This is but one example out of many. No one in the mainstream of a religion is going to follow the religion to the letter, except maybe Judaism. Let me rephrase, no one in Christianity nor Islam who is in the mainstream of those religions is going to follow the holy books to the letter.
The ones that do, that follow every commandment regardless of if it is right or wrong are the fanatics. People that discriminate against homosexuals, harass abortion doctors, or harass people of different faiths are doing so not because they think it is right but because their religion tells them to do so and yes there is a difference. The difference is that when you hate something there is a rational, logically reached reason why. If you ask those that do hate homosexuals why they do the most common response you will get is that they are abominations. This is a religious idea, not something they personally believe even if they think that they do. If they had not gone to church since they were kids they would not have that idea in their heads. This makes them fanatics because they cannot separate out what are their own believes from those taught to them by their religion or tell what right from wrong in these religions that have not yet evolved to the point where they keep up with the whims of how society's morals are changing.
Religion that does not conform to societies demands will find themselves left on the side of the road once enough people become disenchanted. Religion is not needed to believe in God, religion is just a tool. We throw away tools that cannot be used for their intended purposes and cannot be altered to work for new things.
I do not think that an Islamic Egypt will be good or bad. We will not know until it happens and that is what I am trying to stress, not that it is good but that we should not be placing preconceived notions of Islam or of Islamic groups into how we view future situations. Anytime anyone mentions the Brotherhood there are always a group of people, usually always the same ones, who come out and immediately say that whatever the Brotherhood has their hands in is going to automatically be Anti-Western or something similar. There were some of them here claiming that if they win Egypt becomes the next Iran.
My point is that beliefs are influential in determining behaviors (hence policy and law in the realm of politics). No, "fanatical followers" are not the only ones who behave according to their belief systems. When radicals act they make more news, surely. But moderates do the same. You and I do the same, don't fool yourself into thinking you are above the fray.
Likewise, don't kid yourself into believing you are above judgment calls. We can easily sit back, type, and objectively critique a world event. Here it is easy to be a dispassionate observer and say things such as "I do not think that an Islamic Egypt will be good or bad." In real life, norms and ethics exist (at least in the minds of the vast majority of human beings they do). Unless you are a nihilist, they exist to you as well.
Egypt may go in various directions in the future. The winner of the election will play a pivitol role in determining the future. Why? Many reasons, including the man's ideology (i.e. beliefs).
Which is why I followed up the "good/bad" comment with we will not know until it happens. We can make guesses and use historical facts to predict what might happen but in truth we will not know until it happens. Like with the whole reason why Romney should be President. His supporters point to history as a means why we should elect him but they do not know if he will do a better job then Obama, they only hope that he will. Likewise Obama supporters use the Republican president's legacies against Romney stating that Romney would be worse for the country but they also do not know if this is really the case. They are hoping it is not true but are expecting that it is true.
But now we have entered more philosophical waters, I think the discussion on that level requires a bigger boat then Newsvine.
Sure an Islamic Egypt can go either way. It may stabilize the country yet retaining the prior secular commitments of the previous administration or it may go full on radical Islamic. My point is even if a President is elected that is a hard Islamist that does not mean that the entire Government will go that way as well. Egypt has the closest thing to our own democracy out of the Middle East Islamic countries to my knowledge, there are some balances that keep the power of the President in check, like the military council. That will still be around after the current military Government is dissolved. Sure the new Pres will likely place people that have his same ideas into seats of power but democratic Government, even one that contains only small pieces, takes a while to dismantle; electing and Islamic President does not mean that Egypt's democracy is going to vanish overnight, it will take years if the new President wants to dismantle it. During that time there will likely be another uprising once people realize, unless they actually voted for that, what is going on and fight to retain their freedoms.
So it's a battle between sanity vs. psychosis. Being the Middle East, I wonder who wins that one?
Looks more like psychosis vs. psychosis.