You are looking at a glimpse of our own future here in the US. Ben the liar at the fed by monitizing our debt is setting the stage for us to follow. Unfortunately the White House is only fueling the matter by socializing our country. Heed the future if we do not change leadership in November gang.

weirdscience,

Do you mean uprisings in Europe leading to a rebalancing and new opportunities like the French Revolution that led to Napoleon? Or the riots in the Weimar Republic that led to Hitler? Or the Russian Revolution that led to Communism?

Each one is different, Europe is controlled by the old guard. I see this revolution starting with the youth, not being near as violent as the past, but forcing the old guards hand. In our age of technology people are far more aware and educated. Germany will be the leader.

Each one is different, Europe is controlled by the old guard.

Lions and tigers are different, but they are both big cats.

I see this revolution starting with the youth, not being near as violent as the past, but forcing the old guards hand.

Keep your eyes on Chicago.

I've never been overseas but everyone tells me these countries are beautiful. I'm so sad for them. We have it bad here, but at least we have safety nets for citizens.

If you read the article, the root of the problem in Spain is the cost of housing. The same problem that caused the housing crisis in the US. When do you people wake up and smell the coffee? If all US developers want is a pile of moolah, then yes. They will build homes people can't really afford. Why sell a 3 bedroom home of 1500 sq. ft when you can make half a mil by selling one twice that size? Of course, now, there's just one problem with the McMansion Mausoleums these developers built to bamboozle home buyers...home buyers have employers who won't increase their salaries which reduces the ability to purchase homes. Get it now? DUH (Dumb Uppercrust Hubris). So, developers sell homes at half a mil and yes, their bank accounts do fill up pretty quickly. Quickly enough to warrant dumping all that moolah into offshore tax free havens. Works for them. Just not the economy.

At what point does anyone want to admit if you price people out of homes, they can only rent? And if they can only rent, they can't have more than 1 child in a 2-bedroom apartment...Way to go geniuses....a whole generation of young people whose lives are totally controlled by the Grand Masters of Land Development. Reality bites...sometimes a little too hard.

weirdscience-90210

It's a bit early, but this has the makings of an uprising. That is the only way to rebalance and open up opportunities in Europe.

Anyone that advocates what you are suggesting has never seen what they advocate, and what follows, looks like up close and personal. It won't be pretty and you might want to rethink your suggestion.

Maybe you have missed it, but for the past 50 years or so, we have raised generations of people that believe corn grows in a green giant can. Don't believe me? How many people do you know that can grow their own food, fix their own car, or even do simple repairs to their home? They have been trained to believe that the can only exist with the help of a government stipend (both people and corporations alike). What will happen if that stipend disappears? Will they sit on the curb and cry or will they turn into a rioting Athens style mob with pitchforks, torches, and a .45 colt for everyone? My money is 4 to 1 on the mob.

When people can't feed their kids, and it takes a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread, normally sane and rational people will start doing some really friggin' crazy things. I have some very good friends who are from Germany. They are a very kind, generous, and thoughtful people, but about 80 years ago, they followed a really crazy little bastard (literally) for just that reason. The outcome of that little "Bar Fight" didnot do too well for about 50 Million people.

It has been my experience that civilization is a veneer that we CHOOSE to wear. If you place people into the right (or wrong) situations and apply enough pressure, most of us will both quickly and cheerfully strip it off faster than the dancer at a nudie bar. Necessity, Hunger, and Survival are the most ruthless of our natural instincts and it won't take much for us to revert to the animals from whens we came. We will do whatever it takes to survive.

I served with the 3rd Marines in Thua Thien and Quang Tri Provinces of Vietnam and have looked the 2nd Horseman in the eyes before. I can promise you that you don't want to go there. An uprising like what you suggest would be a really ugly thing with no winners and plenty of losers.

Give credit where credit is due...At least our American speculator pigs of the Great Depression saved us the trouble of paying for their jail time...they just jumped out of skyscrapers on Wall Street. These neoconservative pigs don't even have the common decency to know when enough is enough. Everything in this life reaches a limit. That includes the skankologists on Wall Street playing their moolah games and thinking it's win win all the way for them and only them.

Watch who runs and collects Social Security when their big time investments go flatter than pancakes..roflmao.

Coming soon to America.

RockyRoad...Wrong...Too many younger Americans today see the handwriting on the wall. It's time the Middle Aged bougies who suffer from affluenza stop dragging chins and asses and start being part of the fabric of this country. Their isolationism is part of the problem.

We have laws and regulations. What we don't have is an end to white collar crime that's nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Throw their asses in jail like the common criminals they are if they are too stupid to abide by the full letter of regulations.

Few greedy and manipulators and their puppets have brought this mess.

Is it time to manipulate oil prices higher by inventing WMDs in Iran and imposing sanctions on Iranian oil?

Net results of Saudi, Kuwait, UAE, oil companies and their lobbyists directed 1991 and 2003 Iraqi wars are

WINNERS

1. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and other rich ME sharks became richer by manipulating oil prices too high.

2. Oil companies and their lobbyists also benefitted. Oil prices, which were hardly $30 a barrel before 1991, shot up to $140 a barrel.

3. Since 2003, future traders, rating agencies, Wall Street and oil companies and their lobbyists transferred five trillion dollars from oil importing countries to oil exporting nations.

4. Rich Sunni ME sharks (Saudi Arabia in particular) funded Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques and Islamic radicals and terrorists all over the world. These Sunni Islamic radicals and terrorists are rampaging all over the world. World’s 80 percent of problems are due to them.

LOSERS

1. General US and European nations’ public. Look at PIIGS. There have been high unemployment, cut in welfare measures, housing market collapse and more miseries. Since 2001, US spent three trillion dollars on Iraq and Afghan wars. Did the Saudis and co foot the bill?

weirdscience,

"It's a bit early, but this has the makings of an uprising."

Either that or possibly WWIII. One of the goals of the European Union was to remove the barriers between the various European countries who had fought two disastrous wars (WWI and WWII) among themselves because of their differences, to say nothing of the numerous lesser wars. With the growing animosity of the debtor nations of southern Europe toward the German demand for austerity, can the European Union last? And don't forget that economic matters played a major role in the events that led up to both WWI (the economic and colonial competition between the European powers) and WWII (the economic burden placed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles). At any rate, I think dark days lie ahead for all of us.

Same thing is happening here. Discontent is rampant especially when the government gave all that money to the banks and bailed out auto companies. The situation has not improved. Too bad the English and the USA got involved in Europe's wars in the 20th century. The Germans still run Europe but not as effectively as in 1941. London and New York are the cities responsible for this and the World War might have been better if 9/11/2001 had been nuclear. I do not like having my life ruled by Washington and New York.

Spain defaulting ,like Greece, would shake the entire western finical markets to it's core; it looks as if the only hope for the central banks is a forced devaluation of the dollar; no matter who is elected in November, I believe the decision has already been made to devalue the dollar after the November election, probably around 50%, it is going to cause a major upheaval, especially for those on a fixed income, pensions, social security, and annuity income.

So basically you have those that are calling for the EU to print bonds and then sell those bonds to investors believing they will be paid back in the future, with the proceeds to be divided up among the countries that are doing the worst. The debt burden then will fall on all members with some perhaps never being able to pay the servicing on that debt. What sort of number will it take just to pay the servicing on the already existing debt and of course pay the government to work for all the countries that are suffering? So how many in the EU are actually healthy enough to themselves not be asking for help? The emergency fund is made up all countries that have pledged financial help towards funds to bail out members, but the issue is that many are in the very same predicament.

The Keynesian idea is that you take saved money during the bad times and release it and spread it around to eventually stimulate the private sector. The issue is there is NO saved money either in Europe nor in the US and so the printing begins and thus running up more debt on top of the existing debt.

Back in the "old" days here in the US savings rates were in the double digits for decades. Right now we are back to about 2-3 percent. That is virtually little cushion. The credit cards are now being used again.

I love the reference Obama makes to one congress being a headache and he can't imagine dealing with many more of them. Truth is, Obama has NEVER dealt with any congress whether he owned it or not. He can of course blame others, which he does on a daily basis, but he hasn't presented a budget that even his own party is willing to endorse. Obama and many other world leaders are just plain not effective leaders. A measure of greatness is when things are in the dumper and how a leader performs. Obama is our CEO. Merkel is Germany's CEO. One believes in a large centralized government and lots of spending and printing money and running up huge deficits. The other is against printing money, high deficits, and bailing out others that simply will not help themselves and instead blame Germany for all their woes.

Willy,

"Too bad the English and the USA got involved in Europe's wars in the 29th century."

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself there, buddy. We still have a way to go before we get to the 29th. century. It's an easy typo to make, though, since 0 and 9 are right next to each other on the keyboard. :)

Garbage austerity measures for huge unemployed, old and sickly.

Bail packages for the greedy manipulators like bankers, insurance companies, auto companies and economic aid for all those who take a stick and demand for it like Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on.

There are no austerity measures for Afghan war, Syrian and Iran war exercises and possibly wars!

The Euro is failing. So much for the Evil Conspiracy's experiment at instituting a one world currency that's good in all nations. Am I right? Conspiracy theorists? Anyone? No? Oh well.

What Spain needs is a President willing to create a $1B stimulus package and crushing national debt. They can have Obama in January 2013 when he leaves office.

.

Everyone saying that when this gets here, it will lead to uprisings, are obviously overestimating the American people. This is not the US of 150 to 200 years ago. If it were, then every last politician would have been removed by a revolution and would be doing time for their crimes, regardless of party.

But, today's US is filled with ADD, selfish, fickle malcontents who do nothing but whine about things. Throw them a free I-phone so they can tweet about their favorite celebrity and they will go back to being sheep. This is how you create the downfall of the greatest country in the history of the world.

Or one who pissed away a surplus on two wars of choice, gave free viagra for grandad and tax cuts for all

Do you mean uprisings in Europe leading to a rebalancing and new opportunities like the French Revolution that led to Napoleon? Or the riots in the Weimar Republic that led to Hitler? Or the Russian Revolution that led to Communism?

No, he probably means uprisings like the ones that lead to Magna Carta, or to the concept of the monarchy not being able to rule (and make decisions) without parliaments consent (English Civil War).

Spanish builders overbuilt. That was done here as well.

The media is misrepresenting what is going on over there. It will be okay here , as ell.

But the Party of NO has to be kicked to the ground. Austerity WILL NOT WORK. Spending and jobs is what is needed here and NO MORE CORPORATE WELFARE/ TAX CUTS !!!!!!!

unchecked real-estate development...bad for the economy; bad for ecology; and bad for the environment.

Seriously...when was EVERYONE promised a second home for vacations?

What are you f*cks gonna do when there is no welfare to hand out? When will you realize it's both parties fault we're in this f*cking mess? Who the hell do you think is getting filthy rich up in Washington? The Idiots we elected. We'll still be blaming each others party when we're begging for food. While they keep us fools divided those f*cks are going on tropical vacations, attending $40,000 a plate fundraisers. Our Govt. is playing us like the fools we are. Our politicians are no different, than those running Spain, Greece and Italy. All of them are greedy.

Rob80,

We were talking about popular uprisings. It's good of you to cite the Magna Charta, but that uprising was led by the nobles against the king, not by the populace against the nobles.

Well, from what I knew before this economic crisis started, Spanish towns were being abandoned because women did not want to have children and so the small towns were gull of old people while the younger generation, or what was left of it, moved to were the action was. A direct result of the hogwash, or brainwashing given around the world teaching people that having children was bad but no one mention that.

Same thing with basic economy. No one mentions that things have gone this bad because capitalism is ruining wild. Any aid to the poor and the down trotted is called evil socialism or Communism and so our economy has broken down because wild capitalism is all about maximising profits and that means reducing salaries and taking benefits from workers. That means that our tax dollars must be used to save parasitic businesses that are failing precisely because all the money is going into the pockets of a selected few. No economic system can exist under such conditions.

Ewent, you've obviously swallowed the Class Envy BS that Obama is selling hook, line, and sinker... anyone that buys into villifying free enterprise, earning wealth, and achieving the American Dream deserves the miserable small life that they live... just contrast that to people who've come off of boats from places like Viet Nam and Cuba with the clothes on their back, took initiative, worked hard, and created their own businesses... the difference... a work ethic... something you entitlement Liberals seem to be devoid of...

Gee, last I heard there are people trying to go back to Cuba, Mexico and other countries because life here has become unbearable. A person can be willing to work his but off to move forward in life but, if there is no work available and the opportunities in the street disappear because people have no money to pay for services, then the will to work disappears and desperation sinks in.

Spain has a real problem with lots of Muslims on welfare too. They have mupltiple wives in different households collecting entitlements. England is experiencing this also.

We were talking about popular uprisings. It's good of you to cite the Magna Charta, but that uprising was led by the nobles against the king, not by the populace against the nobles.

They did not just do that in isolation. This is the time of Robin Hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor. A time of great discontent amongst the general population. Pressure from the bottom up.

There's also the Great Rising of 1381, if that's still not acceptable to you? Or the Reform Act of 1832, which was preceded by a number of popular uprisings, such as the one that led to the Peterloo Massacre in 1819. Again, pressure from the bottom up. The Peterloo Massacre itself is responsible for the creation of the Manchester Guardian newspaper (now just the Guardian), which has always been a big advocate for the working class and liberalism.

Point is, there have been a great many popular uprisings that have led to positive outcomes. To only list negative ones is disingenuous.

"We are going to end up with no home and in debt forever," Munoz Alcaza, an unemployed construction worker, told Hilsum through a translator. "We'll have to keep paying for this apartment, but we won't be able to live in it."

I met some young men from Spain in Costa Rica last year, and they said that there are no 'bankruptcy laws' in Spain that allows people to get a 'fresh start', so they are stuck with their debt forever.

I can see why they are so depressed.

But, today's US is filled with ADD, selfish, fickle malcontents who do nothing but whine about things. Throw them a free I-phone so they can tweet about their favorite celebrity and they will go back to being sheep.

I was just telling my 8 yr old how it was when my grandfather was young, and how when his teacher wouldn't let him go to the outhouse he jumped out the school window and did what he needed to do. She couldn't believe ANYONE would ever do something like that. We have completely lost the ability to think for ourselves and do what needs to be done and we've raised generations to follow suit. Those who do have spirit are medicated. Frankly, it scares me.

The presidents and leaders of countries have got to get it through their thick heads that bank bailouts and sweeping social welfare programs are NOT going to turn around economic distress. There is only one thing that can reverse this trend - and it will take time. Job creation, plain and simple. If you put the people to work, the rest will take care of itself or give a good start.

The underlying problem for Europe is that the 'sovereign debts' are held mostly by the banks, and if there is a widespread debt crisis, those banks will be wiped out, along with all of their depositors money.

As the situation starts to deteriorate, people with savings in banks will make a 'run on the banks', and then the banks will collapse and no funds will be available for lending - the only thing the government will be able to do is 'print more money', which will cause inflation and interest rates to skyrocket.

This is a problem that has been growing for some time, and 'the chickens are coming home to roost'.

We are quickly building a 'debt crisis' in the United States as well, with the National Debt increasing by $5.7 Trillion just since the end of fiscal 2008 - that's an increase of 57% in just 3.5 years, and the idea that this 'deficit spending' of $5.7 Trillion will 'grow the economy' is ludicrous - it has only grown by about 4% in the last 3 years (it has actually declined when adjusted for inflation).

The official government Bureau of Labor Statistics also shows that we have 1.39 million fewer people working than when Obama took office.

Can we really afford 'four more years of Obama'?

I'd like to shift the discussion if I may. This is not only for my benefit but for many others as well. Anyone knowledgeable on the subject, feel free to weigh in.

I would like to know the argument with inflation vs deflation. I know deflation is spoken in *hushed* tones and is generally regarded as undesirable, but why? Why have endless inflation without anything to balance it? Is there no "safe" rate of deflation like we have a "safe" rate of inflation?

I know 2 key points is falling value and increasing debt. I don't understand the falling value part myself b/c I don't see it in practice. People buy things on sale (reduced price). Cars, electronics, appliances, furniture, most consumer goods actually, hell even clothes find buyers after their value has dropped- be it used ("pre-owned"), obsolete, outgoing model, surplus, sale (previously mentioned), whatever. Garage/estate/storage sales survive off of this. This is specifically talking about after the value has fallen, but each of these cases features an initial owner or seller that got the good before the price dropped so the idea that falling currency values leads to decreased sales doesn't hold water to me. And I'm a firm believer in land and home should NOT be an investment (and you never truly own either- whether you view it from the perspective of an American Indian or the IRS).

The increasing debt ("real," practical, relative debt) does have some merit, but obviously we need more information than that to determine whether it is less preferable to the cons of inflation. Still, while I can understand the apprehension that would occur with less investment due to falling currency, as long as someone is working positively towards a goal (examples: increasing production to match increasing sales, or continuing ongoing research), then this can only be put off for so long. And I'm not suggesting a long period of deflation or a sudden shock drop... rather something more sustainable (theoretically). You can argue about the ability of the banks to make loans but after that bailout fiasco ("Help! HELP! I need interest-free money to unfreeze credit and begin loaning!!!" *gives lotsa money* "THANKS!!! Now I'm going to buy lots of smaller banks! But sorry, no loans are available.") I no longer buy any reasoning along these lines.

I've seen Youtube videos on this but I still don't know enough about it to make an informed decision. I'm not an economist so I'm avoiding dedicated text until I find someone to help break down the terms and equations. If anyone on this board would like to try explaing their view on theis debate (civilly) we'd all appreciate it. Thanks!

when all the marbles wind up in a few hands, this is what happens.

the rich got richer, the poor got poorer (and economically enslaved) and a few confused folks in the middle attempt daily to do the bidding of the uber rich, foolishly believing they are closer to the top than the bottom...and somehow their hard work at making excuses for unbridled greed and corruption will pay off in the end.

If we collectively decide we dont want to grow and prosper, and just want to go back to the simpler times when we tended to the house and grew our own food, and hunted our own animals...the rich would never stand for this. It's impossible to grow wealth in that reality...unless you enslave everyone and take what they grow and hunt, sew or build.

bottom line - we never win. the rich always win, and occasionally a few from the bottom make it to the top, and thats sold as a potential reality for everyone, when it simply is not.

you cant get filthy rich without swindling someone.

there is no amount of hard work that warrants the sick wealth some people have.

there is no amount of innovation - save for curing cancer or some other disease - that warrants the sick wealth some people have.

it's not jealousy or envy, I do not want to be them.

I think they shouldnt exist, PERIOD.

I dont want everyone making the same wage, rather...i simply dont want too much power (wealth = power) concentrated in so few hands...

I absolutely love seeing the socialistic dominoes falling one by one in Europe.
They are running out of other people's money.

Let Obama go over there and spend trillions like he did over here, then claim that things would have been a lot worse had he not spent all that money (just like he does over here now).

a matter of fact "now deflation is spoken in *hushed* tones and is generally regarded as undesirable, but why? "

The biggest problem with deflation is that people will tend to stop spending money (buying things) because their dollars will be worth more if they just hang onto them - things keep getting cheaper with time, so they want to wait before buying.

That will stifle the economy.

That, of course, is the simple answer - the overall ramifications are far more complex.

Inflation is another matter - because things get more expensive with time under inflation, the tendency is to buy now before the price goes up. The Fed actually LIKES inflation, because they get to pay back dollars borrowed now with less valuable dollars in the future.

That's part of why $1.00 from 1970 is currently worth only $0.16 in terms of comparable purchasing power.

Inflation is also part of the reasoning behind a lower 'Capital Gains' tax rate - to avoid paying income taxes on the false value gained from inflation.

Rob80,

Your "Great Rising of 1831" was a slave rebellion in Jamaica. And while it did start the movement toward the abolition of slavery in Britain, Jamaica didn't become independent until 1962. And my examples are of movements that created a new continental social order, not a new British newspaper.

Inflation benefits anyone who can invest because investments track it. That is good news if you are rich, bad if you are poor. Deflation favors anyone living paycheck to paycheck with no assets. Each week, food, gas, etc. gets cheaper while the occasional fridge purchase gets better the longer you hold off. But if you hold assets they become worth less over time. This is good news if you are poor, bad news if you are rich.

As Roy said, though, deflation causes people to stop purchasing, it's happened with home sales as we've witnessed. In an economy dependent on spending, too much inflation or deflation is dangerous because there is a circular feedback mechanism.

The more prices go down the more you want to wait, which drives down prices even further. The more prices go up the faster you want to buy to avoid increases, this causes the economy to overheat which drives up prices even more.

The closer you can get to 0% the better but most economists like to error on the side of inflation, it's easier to control.

Classic Socialist rhetoric. Spain, has a socialist nanny state gov't --- masses of public/union workers, with lavish pay and benefits, which were completely out of touch for the work they were doing. This is not a capitalist society gone to hell because of the greedy 1% ----Enough with that bizarre narrative, that Barry is peddling.

This is caused by a wasteful, corrupt and feckless gov't that made political and fianancial promises to people that they could never meet. Everything was done on cheap credit and borrowing and spending --- You have poeple, who lived beyond their means for decades and now the bill is due and everyone wants to stand around and blame people, who had nothing to do with the problem --- grow up you dolt!

He didn't say it was solely Obama's fault- he clearly said it was people who had been living beyond their means. Everyone living on money they didn't have.

It's just a distraction to talk about "money" and "living beyond one's means." Money is nothing more than numbers generated by the Fed or by central banks. Money has no real value. What matters are resources because THOSE are absolutely limited since the earth is a closed system. What you are seeing here is the transfer of resources from the hands of those who need them and could use them into the hands of those who don't need them or have any expectation of using them other than as a means to accrue even more resources that they don't need. THAT is the problem. In the past, whenever this happened, a war would come along and eliminate the rich, releasing those accumulated resources to the hands of those who need them and can make use of them. If you want to avoid war as the traditional way of reallocating wealth, then you need the government to do it. We are far past the point where the only real solution to the problems of the global economy is a confiscatory tax policy. Instead of reinforcing the systems that move ever more money into the hands of the investment class, we need to be making every effort to move it back into the hands of the consumers. THAT is the situation that led to every economic boom. Every Western country is doing the exact opposite of what needs to be done, and people are scratching their heads wondering why it doesn't work. So much for the wisdom of the schools of economics!

Spain will follow Greece and then France will join them.

Why? Because, just like the "dolt" who sits in our White House they cannot and will not allow themselves to face reality and realize that you cannot take from the thrifty give to the shifty and mortgage the future so you can enjoy "the good life" in the present - and then when it all comes tumbling down blame it on someone else, when in fact it was YOU, not someone else, was profligate with the public's coffers.

As long as you have blind men leading the U. S., France, Spain and Greece, who delusionally believe they have the gift of special sight and know the way all lesser men would know if only they were as enlightened as they - you will have the kind of lunacy you see happen here and abroad.

Time for Greece, Spain and France to crash and burn and take the lumps they have been setting themselves up for for decades - let us hope come election time we can change our own course before we end up like them.

Lisa...So..only the middle class and working poor live beyond their means? Sorry dahlin' Not true. Take a long look up at the ones who never worry about living within their means. What is it you people don't get about an upper class who can only remain "upper" by using the middle class and working poor as their safety net to growth of their wealth?

Does any CEO need his own private jet? Hell no! Guess who made that private jet possible...a little skanko here...a little skanko there and voila! Predatory price increases that erode Middle Class paychecks. On to bigger and better things...Does any CEO need an $8 million salary if that means begging bailouts from taxpayers? Begging subsidies to pay the bills for his business? With the Middle Class as his cash cow? Absolutely! He can get it while he can and as fast as he can and who's the wiser on what that is doing to the rest of the country? Not that he cares anyway...McGolddigger McWifie needs a $2 million birthday party on Corfu. The McTrophy Kiddies need private schools and all the trappings of wealth only the Middle Class cash cows can provide.

Massachusetts Anarchist...Nice Gospel of the Inevitable. Too bad it's so far off the mark of reality. Resources are not limitless. Only fools don't know that. So use them up. Then what?

Here we go with blame games!

We read much blames on poor Greeks.

Similar article was on Ireland some time back.

Are there no similar localities (Sacramento for sure) in the US? Do you blame people or bankers? People have lost lives' savings on these housing balloons floated!

Now we have austerity measures. What joke is that? Those, who are unemployed, old and sickly have to live with their pains and mess.

Let there be austerity measures on wars, economic aid to backstabbing nations like Pakistan, Afghanistan and ohter places!

Bring oil prices down by removing sanctions on Iranian oil. If Iran wants nukes it can get from Pakis or N. Korea!

Jonathan....Oil is on its way out. Even Big Oil knows their market share is dwindling thanks to newer, cleaner, more sustainable energy. That's why we had all that bashing from the right about solar, wind and geothermal energy. They can't make historic profits if they have stiffer competition. What most Americans today miss is that there's no real need to be a hostage of Big Oil. There are options. All it takes is crossing the stream of doubt and fear and accepting that in 50 years from now, Big Oil will be only a memory. Fossil fuels are not limitless. The need to crush the life out of alternative energy is a major priority in order to one industry to remain an monopoly.

ewent, I am usually right along in agreement with all of your posts - except the last one "oil is on its way out" - well, last I checked, I havent seen a single car on the road running on solar panels, or with a big windmill attached to it, or running on geothermal steam. That would be nice, though. Nope, everyone still lines up and fills the tank with petroleum. Even hybrids, they still need that old dino-juice. Recognizing there are options isnt enough to stop being a hostage of big oil. Now if I could figure out how to hook up my own car with a flux capacitor to utilize 1.21 gigawatts to get to the grocery store, maybe I could stop being a hostage to big oil. Until I develop that keen intellect, or aliens provide me with the necessary knowledge, I still have to gas 'er up.

Wonder why nobody talks about how spain's green policies killed 3 jobs for every green job created-- according to their own nbrs? I bet they wish they had those jobs now. This is a classic "hippy policy." "Hippy" - adjective, something that makes you feel good but doesnt actually do any good.

When will we quit blaming this on the poor? Who the hell loaned them the money they couldn't afford to pay back? Why would they loan someone money they couldn't afford to pay back? They had a reason to loan this money out and it was to benefit them. Banks failed to verify income or inflated the income of the person applying. I bet every f*ck in Washington was making money off this. I would like to see a print out on all those f*cks investments during this sh*t. The poor will get the last laugh, they know how to live poor. The rich on the other hand do not lmao.

Hey, a Liberal who's actually honest about the Liberal end game.... total confiscation of property and wealth! Those mean wealthy people's property rights don't matter if some homeless bum needs a place to live!!

Because Spain was rich, we bought many things that were made in Germany

This was the Spanish dream: new developments, luxury apartments, the good life. But it was all on borrowed money

I think the last line says it all "it was all on borrowed money". When you have a society built on entitlements it works until the money runs out and now they have to pay or in this case suffer.

I'll be building a mud hut in my backyard.

ewent, curious comment considering that I said that resources are absolutely limited

Francisco DeAnconia

Tell me this, why is our our Country in the state that it was and is in now? Who is at fault? Obama? If it was not for Obama GM would be looking like that building in the picture. So what your saying is that you want a REPUBLICAN back in office when it was the REPUBLICANS that destroyed our economy? Did we not have a surplus while Clinton was in office? As soon as you get the Bush family in office.. POOF were in major debt! So your answer is to go backwards?

If it was not for Obama GM would be looking like that building in the picture

No GM would have gone through the normal bankruptcy procedures and still be making cars today.

No, Anthony, the democrats can't play it that way. The "reason" commonly given for the mess we're still in is because Obama doesn't have a congress that will work with him, so it's not his fault things haven't gone the way he wants them to, yet every single disaster that took place during George W's term was solely George W's fault - even though the last 2 years of his term he was also fighting an unfavorable congress. Now, I'm not a George W supporter in the least, but fair is fair here. Either it's ALL the president's fault, it's ALL the fault of Congress, or - and here's a radical thought - they're both at fault and we as a population need to re-evaluate our election criteria when we put these people in office.

@ MonkeyMo

Your point is valid but by 2006, bushco had already done their damage. The 2 tax cuts, 2 wars, Pharma "reform"...all of this had already occurred. I helped put dems in office for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only.

1) stop the wars

2) stop bush's imperial view of the presidency. ( Do you know how many times he signed a bill but gave a "signing statement"?)

The dems failed to do either. So the dems get a little bit of blame but only because they failed to put bush in check. Bushco had already sodomized the American economy though.

The biggest surprise to me out of these last 12 years though, is that even though Cheney and Rove are commonly recognized as criminals, millions of people still follow them and listen to them. Why would you value the words of someone who just destroyed your country and caused the death of your son? AT least the Shrub had the decency to hide his face after he left office. Cheney and Rove really should be in prison or dead.

ewent: It is amazing/disgusting how people can be brain washed about the junk oil and the needs for using!

We can go to moon. But the dirtiest oil business goes on, on!

Hope, we will have substitutes for oil within two decades and dump that oil into some sea!

That's what really scares the world governments/bankers. You can grow food, and you can "grow" (print) money. But more food means more things for people to eat. More money doesn't necessarily mean more buying power.

anti-trust...actually, there's something weird going on with banks at the moment. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. A lot of Americans are fed up with their skanking around and have pulled out of the biggest banks. They've cut up credit cards and rely on their debit cards where the money is there to pay from. Banks are not wont to admit when they've been hit in the wallet. Watch the banking trends they are hauling out if you need proof. They've already gone after higher credit card interest rates...the idea being that they will live off the interest that streams in from credit cards. They don't want anyone to pay off a balance...that would mean an end to that interest that keeps them in a new Porsche every year.

Banks and govt both make money when asset merely "move", not by actually producing anything. Banks call them Fees. Govts call them Taxes.

You idiot- how do you think Germany remained the powerhouse in the EU? By having sound fiscal policy!

Germany remained the economic powerhouse of Europe by dint of its laws requiring labor's representation on corporate boards. That meant that German companies couldn't outsource their production, or succumb to corporate raiders who loot companies to management's benefit and the country's loss. That has led to high productivity, high profitability, high wages, high employee loyalty and a stable, healthy and prosperous populace. The US has gone the opposit route, with high profitabilty, high productivity, low wages, low company loyalty, and a worried, sickly and economically failing populace.

Germany and Germans in general abhor inflation. That is why Keynesian Economics is dead in that country. It has been dead there for about 80 years now. Thanks the the horror inflation of Wiemar, even the Grune Partei and and Links Partei are hesitant to boost the money supply.

Yet, without Germany, the Euro is not "worth a continental"

Another thing, Germany started from scratch. In 1949 virtually every German was poor and hungry. The cities were rubble, the cemeteries were full, foreign soldiers were everywhere (and are still there) You might also want to take into account, Massachusetts, that German Unions are not strike happy and do not make ridiculous demands on the companies. True, Ludwig Erhard's laws for board representation are masterwork of genius, but we are talking about Germans, not Americans or British.

Lisa...Lose the bougie attitude. No human being can live 8 decades in total austerity. You don't, do you? You drive a nice car, have a solid roof over you head but yet...your posts are soooo typical of the Me Firsters in this country. Who exactly deserves total credit for your affluenza? Don't bother to try and lay total claim to that. You had help...parents who saw to your education...that cost them a bundle. Consumers who buy the services or products from the employer you work for. Taxpayers who make your trip to work possible on infrastructure they pay for just like you do. And by the way, today HMOs won't sell plans without employees who pay for the copays...so do be more gracious and thank you fellow employees for being willing to be part of your HMO plan.

Life isn't all about investing and "making all the right decisions." Sometimes, as you will learn the hard way, decisions are made for you. Only control freaks believe every decisions is theirs and theirs alone. Now please come down off that high horse. No one is buying the bougie routine anymore.

P.S.

Eventually...we all, including the U.S., could be in it together. That's what the U.S. stock market is trying to size up, in its own way. Furthermore the evidence is very strong that the U.S.'s Wall Street caused the financial shock wave that traveled around the globe. An after affect is that the shock wave started many economies teetering and some are just now beginning to fall, such as Greece. Whether or not any of those economies must have been ready to collapse anyhow is very debatable and includes the U.S. economy.

So...the U.S. needs to stand up and be accountable for its role in these tragedies, including those yet to become visible. That doesn't mean we should begin unilaterally throwing money at Greece. It could be just throwing money down the well. It means that we need to collaborate appropriately and look at such efforts as risk management and investments in our own future.

(c) 2012

ewent: what is a "bougie"? Just curious. Your "affluenza" word is quite amusing (I assume that this is a distortion of the word "affluent" and combining it with a derivative of the word influenza, is that correct?)...do you have something against those that are affluent? How much money does one need, in your opinion, to have in order to be considered affluent? I'm just trying to understand the points that you are attempting to make.

Germany is still paying for the basket case formerly known as east germany. They've been paying a Unification Tax ever since the wall came down. I'm not surprised they're a little reluctant to bail out more failed countries.

The Socialists are bad mouthing the wealthy... trying to break down property rights... once they get the masses to agree that "those rich" aren't entitled to their wealth, it's a short putt to confiscate everyone else's property and redistribute it they way they want. And of course if you're a Liberal, your assetts will be safe... (Liberal car dealership owners got to keep theirs, Liberal businesses and unions got Obozocare waivers, Obama's supporters got all the green boondoggle money, etc). Their real objective is to seize all 401Ks to redistribute to their lazy deadbeat buddies.

Hendricks, unions aren't "strike-happy" in Germany because they have an actual voice in the companies they are associated with. It is the US laws that give unions no power other than to strike. After all, the CEO of any company can run for office. The heads of unions are barred from those seats. Union contracts can be set aside by government to further the "public interest," but corporations can no longer have their resources appropriated for the "public good." Unions were tolerated in this country from fear of labor embracing communism if business was allowed to ride roughshod over workers. With the fall of the USSR, there is no incentive to give anything to the workers. The decline in the economic status of the American worker began with the weakening of the Soviet Union. Fear is a wonderful disincentive to bad practice. Having won the war and bought the political system, business has lost all fear. Their abuse of their new power was totally predictable.

German unions are on the company boards because they had to cooperate to rebuild after WWII. Our coimpanies had a global monopoly because the global competition was bombed back to the stoneage so they paid off the US unions to not mess up the gravytrain. Now our competitors cooperate and we have a 50 year old boat anchor.

@ Mass Anarchist...

The decline in the economic status of the American worker began with the weakening of the Soviet Union.

I disagree. I think it clearly started when Reagan took office. And when he fired all the PATCO workers with no pushback from the AFL-CIO or other unions, or public backlash, I think that put the " kill the unions" movement in 2nd gear.

Entitlements like what? The things we have paid into? Those are the entitlements you speak of? We are entitled to them, we paid for them. What do you call the bonus a CEO makes for one bad year on the job? How about 8 bilion in oil subsidies, what do you call those, entitlements or welfare?

Its austerity that they are applying and its not working, and its what the GOP wants to apply here even though its not working there, brilliant! Im starting to think you don't even know what socialism is

earthmx...Excuse me...but do you have deductions taken from your paycheck for your 401K? Do you expect a return on that investment? Or is that an "entitlement"? You bet it is. You are "entitled" to expect that all of the payroll deductions you put into a 401K is returned to you at retirement. What the hell do you think those Social Security payroll deductions are? Don't talk entitlements until the bougies out there own up to how many entitlements the Middle Class is paying so rich asses never have to live within THEIR means. In the words of Tyco's former CEO, Dennis Kozlowski, "we had a wealth entitlment mentality." Since when is anyone entitled to wealth they can't get without help from other Americans? You give back from the wealth what you were given.

Europeans all jumped into bed together and now they have a socialist disease. ;)

Yeah, Funny, entitlements... people taking far more out of SS than they ever put in... same for Medicare... and the people collecting welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and all the other gov't teat entitlements didn't pay anything in...

? They are not a military superpower. Those days are gone for Spain and most of the European nations --- They are looking at regressing to a 2nd or 3rd world country. What do you do when you have no money and all the credit cards are maxed out and no one wants to lend you money? Yet people still demand that they make no consessions intheir lifestyle? ---- It will only end one way ---- civil unrest...other countries will then,make financial moves to insulate themselves as best as opssible from the nations that begin to financially collpase - There will be a domino effect just not sure how fast the dominos will fall.

brilliant insight so you agree that austerity is not the answer. Perfect!

alinnj - "Make no concession in their lifestyle"

Give me a break did you even read the article.

I'm sure being kicked out of their home and being homeless is pretty damn lifestyle changing!

Create jobs building a new and improved Spanish Armada

Party like its 1588!!

Another Euro country that won't be getting any loans... they'll continue to pay ridiculous pensions and default on their external debt...

That included a green policy that killed 3 jobs for every green job too. They even lied about that nbr until somebody leaked the internal report.

The basic difference between Europe and the US is Obama's stimulus programs which have funneled money into the hands of consumers and led to a small stabilizing force in the economy. I don't think anyone is questioning that the uptick in the US economy is the result of consumer spending - made possible by Obama's stimulus spending. The problem is that the stimulus was based on borrowing, so it just delayed our problems. What was needed was to have paid for it through higher taxes on those who could afford to pay them - the reallocation of resources into the hands of consumers. Now that the stimulus money is running dry - what wil happen next is obvious to everyone except the economists.

Jonboy - I agree.

Are they crashing because of "austerity" or have they not been "austere" enough or have they not let it work through? They've only been on this "austerity plan" for a short time.

The turnaround didnt happen until the tea party gridlocked govt and stopped the threat of more obama "help". He generated uncertainties that still has most businesses hiding in their bunkers. And since we all now know obama will have "more flexibility" after the election, that uncertainty isnt going away until ANYBODY ELSE is in the white house. Right now, Romey's unknowns are no worse than for any other new pres.

Jonboy, Europe isn't crashing because of austerity... they're crashing because they don't have the guts for austerity... see someone has to stand up and say, "we're making BIG changes to these unsustainable social programs"... NO you can't retire on full salary at age 50, NO, your health care isn't totally free anymore, NO you can't have 25 weeks of vacation a year, YES companies can fire your a$$ if you don't perform.... and WE as a country are only going to spend what we take in in revenue....

Funny how ghost towns in Spain are news worthy, but Detroit being half empty doesn't seem to demand a lot of press. Guess that's not good publicity for the unions or Democrats.

Are you on drugs? or has the Fox and Talk Radio venom poisoned you? Your memory has completely failed . . time to get back on the alzheimers meds. " Turn us into Europe"? Do you think for yourself at all?

It's the right that has promoted strict European austerity for us, too-- which has failed miserably. It is the right that paid for wars with TAX CUTS and demands tax breaks for the wealthy. It is the right that fights against putting people to work while instead promoting fixing the deficit at all costs ( . . err, except another "free" war.) Get a clue. Our social supports have worked without fail -- until the funds were raided to pay for wars. Our government programs have created a national highway system, paid for health research, kept schools free for all of society, keep police on their posts, given you your wars, etc. What's your solution . . . besides making the wealthy even more wealthy?

The right wants austerity for anyone who isn't a rightie. Then, you watch them go through the throes of their affluenza and you see why...If the 99% is living in constant struggle...guess which percent gets the gravy? Gravy Train ride is over for these rich slugs and they hate the idea of having to watch their spending for a change.

and you're totally delusional if you think that the rich people are going to tamely surrender that wealth they've got. Or, I guess we just storm the mansions with pitchforks and lighted torches and ransack the vaults of gold and jewels that MUST be hidden underneath them? that money will be long gone by the time we get around to demanding it. It will be in a Swiss bank somewhere; and if they haven't given up the money put there by Nazis in the 1930's and 1940's, they aren't going to be any more willing to give up this money to us, the angry masses. So got another solution?

The 1% have one key advantage over the 99%-- they can leave and take their assets with them. Class warfare as pretty much destroyed any solidarity there once was. If it was possible to run a country without those evil rich people, socialist countries would be rolling in dough. Now that's an inconvenient truth. ;)

"Have fun storming the castle!"

It just had to be posted.

That goes back way before the euro. Why do you think people headed to the new world?

crisis4ever...Time to move out of Twilight Zone.

Like it or not, anchor babies are citizens too.

The only other choice is a Mexican.. and last I heard Mexico is not a US state...

Socialism works just fine if the rich will just give up their stashes!

and how do you propose we convince them to do that? By force?

And once that's spent, then what? Socialism just causes productivity to stop or move-- depending on the strength of your walls.

Actually once you spend that money, making the public more needy what do you do. Socalism makes everyone destitute but the ruling class and unions

Carol Allison..I so agree. Some find it awfully hard to look in their own backyards. They've lived with creatures comforts so long they think it's an "entitlement". The people in Appalachia don't know there's a recession, do they?

I look around me at the middle aged whiners who have more than they need and then want to deny others some tiny measure of quality of life. That $12 billion the Republicans demanded from taxpayers to hand to Big Oil sure could have been better dispersed to Americans who need help. The problem we have today is that Republicans want a man with a broken back to walk upright without pain. That's plain wrong.

so one-sided in your comments. I guess the Republicans are all rich and evil, and Democrats walk on water. You lose a lot of your credibility - you DO make good points at times, I will say - when you are so blatantly one-sided on every single issue. It would be helpful if you were a bit more fair. But this is a board where people vent whatever their thoughts and feelings are, so fire away. Just sayin', though...

Carl Hubert..We know what the right wing neoconservative fascists want...a broken country they can control. Not going to happen but you guys can dream. Anyone who thinks this country won't rebound as it always has is a right wing idiot who isn't an American as much as a neoconservative militant.

Do you realize that a NEOconservative is just a liberal calling himself a conservative? As a paleoconservative, I was also discussed by bush's liberal spending and that part of the GOP deserved to be punished with 4 yrs of obama. Now if can just push power back to the states where at least damage will be limited to each state.

ewent, you really swallow that libitard propaganda. What you describe is exactly what the left does. Stop projecting and take your talking points back to your kiddie porn page you weakminded idiot

When they repealed Glass-Stegall it was off to the races. The de-regulated the main banks and claimed SDO's and CDOs would make the markets more stable. Anyone that raided an alarm was silenced or discredited. Until the music stopped. Then,just like the fall of Germany, suddenly all of them claimed they were never for it.

The Fed turned away from its responsibilites, Congressional oversight defended the criminals instead of investigating them and now, here we are.

proud,

I agree with everything you say. I would merely point out that Greenspan was the original culprit, and he was appointed by Ronnie. Clinton made the mistake of signing the repeal of Glass-Stegall, but it was pushed by the Republicans. And guess what their argument was? We needed to allow our banks to compete with Europe!!! Congress needs to get off the gravy train of the financial industry campaign contributions, and start to work for the American people again.

I think it was mockingly called the Citigroup Relief Act which allowed for the first of the giant lending houses. It was formally called the Graham-Leahy Bill (?) After Phil Graham (r) TX and Sen Leahy of (D) Vt.

Either way the main culprits of the Clinton Administration who championed this now lead Obama's economic team. Obama's mistake was hiring the worst of the Clinton Administration.

Lastly do not forget Timothy Geitner's involvement as the Governor of the NY Federal Reserve Bank who stated "its not out job to provide oversight or regulate". In fact that is the very job they are suppose to do.

When alarms started in sounding in 2006 anyone who spoke of a problem was discredited by Bernanke, Summers, Barney Frank and Shirley Jackson Lee. Greenspan had already run away.

Either way.. once stable we need to break up the big lending houses. We don't need any new laws just bring back Glass Stegall. Just like a ponzi scheme everyone gets rich at first ... and then the bottom falls out.

Proud,

Fine, but you overlook that President Obama also hired Paul Volcker, who is the only sane one of the whole bunch. And it is the Republicans who are blocking his reforms.

Its all about biz school grads. The top of the class goes to the private sector, the bottom of the class become regulators. The regulators will always lose. Combined with the fact that lobbying the fed govt is 50x more efficient than lobbying all the states, business will always win and the people will always lose. The only solution is to push power back to the states and make lobbying 50x more complicated. The whole point of the Constitution is to make sure the fed govt isnt too effective cuz they know the govt is always effective in the wrong direction.

peanut,

The Republicans apply that strategy on purpose, to weaken the government. You just have to look at their presidential nominees (especially the last administration). They like stupid people, since they think they are more easily controlled. If the public wants their interests protected, they will have to hire good people, whether at the state or federal level, and pay accordingly. But it is another Republican hangup that they don't want to pay taxes for anything. Our roads and bridges are an example.

The only exception is paying for the military. They want only the best to destroy the roads and bridges in another country.

Of course they do. If you dont like big govt but you cant get rid of it completely, the next best thing is an impotent govt. Which is also how I read the Constitution with its concept of limited power. The less a govt does, the less it does wrong. The govt is designed to not work so why are we surprised when it doesnt?

peanut,

The Republicans don't say that when they want to spend $3T invading the wrong country. Then they want the biggest and best military machine that money can buy. It is only when they get to healthcare and protecting the food supply or the environment that they get tight-fisted.

Have you read the Constitution? The Founding Fathers set up an entire machinery of government. They did not do it so that it would not work.

You don't know how wealth is created.

It is embarrassing when people who don't even know how wealth is created make comments about economics. Why? Because what you say is ridiculous at best.

I was with you until you proved you don't have a clue how a free market works. The government doesn't create jobs or wealth. Raising and collecting taxes takes more money out of the free market system that could be used to create jobs. Lower Taxes and tax incentives are what forces the wealthy to part with their money. Government control of lur money is why Socialist governments fail. Every sociologist, Marxist, Communist and Fascist government always has tow classes of people the Elite and the peasants. The way it works is the Elite takes the money from the peasants keeps a big share for themselves and gives very little back. Have you ever seen the leader of a communist country that wasn't wealthy? In a true communist country the leader would have the same amount of money as the farmer or doctor or school teacher. Thanh will never happen.

Like it or not, jobs are a COST and businesses try to minimize costs. If they can produce the same thing with fewer or cheaper labor, that's the way they'll go. Govt on the other hand is essentially trying to maximize this cost. Everytime they justify something by creating jobs, they're trying to increase the cost. Anytime they create busy work, those are unstable, low paying jobs. As for transferring money, govt is the least efficient way to do that. Back in the '60s, the poverty rate was at 9% and slowly declining. Ever since govt took over the main chunk of anti-poverty work from private charities, its been rising again. They support people without requiring anything from them-- just like pets. $900 hammers, congressional earmarks, whatever example you want to use. Govt is too big to succeed.

Lower Taxes and tax incentives are what forces the wealthy to part with their money.

In theory, that would be the case, but as this recession in the United States has taught corporations is that they can do more with less.

They'll pocket the money they would save in taxes and just push their current employees to work harder.

Havent you figured out that the wealthy arent FORCED to do anything. Thats what being rich means. You can control your own life.

LOL @ U

John-2847773...

And precisely how is this to be accomplished? Awaiting your response.