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Khaled Desouki / AFP - Getty Images
Egyptian election officials count ballots at a polling station in Cairo on Thursday after polls closed in the country's landmark presidential vote.
ANALYSIS
CAIRO - Hundreds of thousands of people throng the streets. The crowds furiously demand an end to nepotism and corruption and all the unemployment and injustice they create. The protesters rally behind a slogan that is also a deeply held conviction: Islam will make things better. Islam will bring justice.
That was Iran in 1979. The revolution was popular at the time. We all know how well it turned out. Iranian’s Islamic revolutionaries became ever more zealous and bellicose. They stormed the American Embassy in Tehran and held 66 Americans hostage for over a year. Iran has been a pariah ever since.
An Iranian friend told me today that when older Iranians in Tehran watch what’s happening in Egypt now, they say, “It looks like what we went through. The same thing is happening.”
In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood, banned for 80 years, appears to be in the lead in the country’s first ever free election. The group has staged mass rallies. The group’s slogan is "Islam is the solution." If the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Egypt, the changes could be as profound for this country and the region as they were for Iran.
This is where things stand now. On May 23-24, Egyptians voted. There were more than a dozen candidates, among them five with the potential of winning.
Voters lined up in Cairo to choose from five leading candidates: a socialist, two Islamists, and two with ties to former President Hosni Mubarak. NBC's Richard Engel reports.
As of a preliminary, still-unofficial counting, it appears there will be a runoff election between the two top contenders of the first vote. The runoff will take place June 16-17. The two candidates couldn’t be more different: former President Hosni Mubarak’s last prime minister, Ahmed Shafiq, and the Muslim Brotherhood’s candidate, Mohammed Mursi. Whoever wins will take the country down one of two very different paths.
Ahmed Shafiq
Ahmed Shafiq is promising to be a strongman. Critics call him a fascist. An Egyptian tonight told me he worried Shafiq will become another pharaoh. Shafiq is the antithesis of the Muslim Brotherhood. Shafiq has promised to restore law and order to Egypt within 24 hours of his election. He’s said that he’d crush any new protests if they are illegal, and that he wouldn’t hesitate to send in soldiers and police. He still openly expresses his admiration for Mubarak. On his campaign posters around Cairo, Shafiq’s slogan reads: "Actions, Not Words." Shafiq is not the man the revolutionaries who went to Tahrir Square more than a year ago had in mind when they demanded democracy. In fact, the revolutionaries –- especially the Facebook and Twitter generation -- hate Shafiq. But those revolutionaries aren’t setting the political agenda here anymore.
Mohammed Mursi
Mohammed Mursi is the Muslim Brotherhood’s man and has promised to purge Egypt of the old regime if he wins. After casting his ballot, Mursi told local television that he won’t allow “ANY members of the former criminal and corrupt regime to keep their jobs.” He stressed the word "any," shouting it and waving a finger. It’s a message directed at Shafiq and the Egyptian military. If Mursi has his way, Shafiq will be removed, maybe even put in jail; so will all the old cronies. That appeals to many Egyptians. A lot of Mubarak’s cronies are still hanging around in bogus jobs the former president created to appease and enrich his inner circle. The threat of a purge is also a warning to the military that it won’t be able to stage a coup against the Brotherhood, which is a distinct possibility.
This could go a couple of ways. Neither looks promising.
Egypt's next president to be an Islamist or Mubarak's former premier?
Amr Abdallah Dalsh / Reuters
Former prime minister and presidential candidate Ahmed Shafiq talks during a news conference in Cairo on May 14.
A Shafiq victory
If Shafiq wins, the Brotherhood will go berserk. It will claim fraud. It will protest. It will take to the streets. The old revolutionaries, the ones who didn’t want the Brotherhood or Shafiq, will go to the streets and try to re-occupy Tahrir Square. They’ll call for a new revolution, a do-over, hoping to get new candidates and new elections. Shafiq will crush the demonstrations. It will be violent. There will be deaths.
Shafiq won’t hesitate to use force. He’s already openly said he’ll smash dissent, and he’ll have a mandate from voters. How will the United States react? Will there be real condemnations? Egyptian revolutionaries, the sympathetic-looking, educated ones who speak English, will complain that they have a new dictator worse than Mubarak. Islamic cells will go underground, potentially carrying out bombings and other attacks that will delegitimize the “democratic revolutionaries.” But can Shafiq really win and restore order? Or will the revolutionaries and the Brotherhood be successful with another Tahrir revolution? If Shafiq wins, will Egyptians have defeated themselves by electing a man who is against the revolution they fought for? Egyptians will effectively have used their votes to elect someone many fear will be a strongman like Mubarak. Many Egyptians will believe the democratic revolution will have failed if Shafiq is the new president.
Asmaa Waguih / Reuters
Presidential candidate Mohammed Mursi arrives at a polling station to cast his vote in Al-Sharqya, northeast of Cairo, on Wednesday.
A Mursi victory
If Mursi and the Brotherhood win, the army will go on the defensive. Senior officers will fight against being purged from their jobs. If the Muslim Brotherhood wins, Egyptian women and Christians will suffer.
The Muslim Brotherhood is at its heart a salafist group, a purist fundamentalist movement focused on imposing Islamic laws and morals. In the current political discourse, there has been a distinction drawn between salafists and the Muslim Brotherhood. The difference isn’t as wide as it seems. Salafists are fundamentalists who dedicate their lives to religious preaching, converting non-believers and defending the strict moral codes of Islamic law. Salafists are generally poor, sometimes impoverished, choosing the purity of poverty over the temptation and ungodliness of wealth. Salafists spend many nights sleeping on hard mosque floors. They generally do not organize politically. They are like medieval Christian hermits, dedicated solely to the path of God. The Brotherhood started out as a salafist movement. The group’s founder, Hassan al-Banna, began his career by writing letters, some of them threatening, warning fellow Egyptians to give up immoral practices.
But the Brotherhood, unlike the ascetic salafists, embraces politics and does it well. The Brotherhood is practical. It has wealthy donors. The Brotherhood believes the best way to implement Islamic law is to win power by gradually taking control of state institutions.
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If Mursi becomes president, it will be disastrous for Egyptian women. Some will pay in blood. Female circumcision –- also known as female genital mutilation –- has long been practiced in Egypt. The process involves cutting out part, or all, of a girl’s clitoris when she starts to show signs of sexual maturity. In the 1990s as many as 97 percent of young Egyptian women underwent the practice. Female genital mutilation, or FGM, is most often carried out by barbers or midwives using a straight razor, or even more commonly, with the snip of scissors. Unlike male circumcision, FGM isn’t primarily used to demarcate community affiliation or for its purported health benefits. FGM is about control. In popular Egyptian and regional culture, women are seen as weak, easy victims to temptation in the same way Eve couldn’t resist that shiny apple in the Garden of Eden. FGM follows the same principle. The clitoris, as a center of sexual pleasure, is seen here as a source of temptation. If a woman rides a donkey, which many rural woman do, or bathes, her clitoris might be stimulated. Like Eve, she’d lose control of herself and make bad decisions. Society would collapse. Paradise lost. Therefore for everyone’s good, including her own, the woman’s clitoris is snipped out. The practice was banned under Mubarak. His wife was a major advocate of the ban, which had a major impact. FGM still takes place in Egypt but no longer in public hospitals. FGM percentages dropped over a third after the 2008 ban. As part of its election campaign, the Brotherhood said it wants to reverse the ban on FGM. It also wants to lower the legal marriage age for women to 14 and make it much more difficult for a woman to divorce her husband or keep custody of her children.
Many Christians fear their future won’t be much brighter than women’s under the Brotherhood. Although the Brotherhood has gone to great lengths to say it will not persecute Christians, few believe it. Christians worry they’ll be forced to pay a tax called jiziya, an ancient form of Islamic protection money that Christians paid to Islamic rulers in exchange for safety and community rights. Several Christians have told me they will leave Egypt if the Brotherhood wins. Others say they will stay and fight. Egypt has a large Christian community –- 10 million to 12 million members now –- which has had a presence in this country since the Roman Empire.
NBC's Richard Engel spoke with former President Jimmy Carter about Egypt's elections and the country's future. The Carter Center has been in Egypt monitoring the presidential elections.
Possible coup?
If the Brotherhood wins, the Egyptian army will probably consider a coup. A coup would go against every democratic principle that Egyptians fought to achieve in last year’s revolution, but, then again, so would electing Shafiq. A coup would be condemned internationally, but many foreign governments might secretly welcome it. The possibility of a coup could explain why Mursi went to such lengths to say he’d purge the entire Egyptian power structure if elected. Omar Suliman, President Mubarak’s old intelligence chief, who knows a thing or two about the military’s thinking, said he expects there would be a coup if the Brotherhood wins power. A coup, if it happens at all, might not take place right away. The military might wait until the Brotherhood alienates moderate Egyptians, so that they’d welcome a military intervention. The longer the military waits, however, the harder it will be to carry out a coup, because the army won’t be able to fight off purges from a democratically elected government forever.
In Egypt's election, politics is a new family affair
Constitutional battle
The military does, however, have one trump card. There is currently no Egyptian constitution. It was dismantled during the revolution against Mubarak and still has to be rewritten. Without a constitution, the new president’s powers will be unclear. If the Brotherhood wins, its supporters –- who now have the overwhelming majority in parliament -- will try to write and pass a new constitution as soon as possible. Control over the constitutional process will become critically important in the coming months.
In the end there are two very distinct scenarios. If Shafiq wins, there will be protests, which he will try to suppress. There will be violence. Where the violence goes is hard to predict. If Mursi wins, the Brotherhood will gradually impose Islamic law, try to fight off a military coup by purging the military and quickly write a constitution. Women and Christians will suffer.
Either way, the next few months in this country are critical, with as much at stake for Egypt as there was for Iran in 1979. Change is coming, but it remains unclear which way Egypt and the Middle East will go.
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Leave a Comment:
The problem with democracy is that sometimes you get what you voted for.
It sure doesn't look like the "revolutionaries" got what they wanted. Looks like a choice between 2 evils.
No matter which way this election goes, Egypt has some tough times ahead. I agree with the author of this article in that I do not see the military sitting by and letting the Islamists take over Egypt. This means that if the Muslim Brotherhood wins the election there will likely be a coup. Then the Egyptians will be right back to where they started, except possibly with a military leader who is far more autocratic and dictatorial in style than Mubarak. If Shafiq wins, it will mean that the people have chosen a secular leader over the Islamists and the Muslim Brotherhood. This will result in the Muslim Brotherhood stirring up trouble claiming fraud in the election because they will not willingly accept that they lost. The Muslim Brotherhood will also try and use their control in parliament to write a constitution that severely limits the power of the president and would probably create a prime minister position, elected by parliament, who would have the real power. This would to a great degree usurp the democratic will of the people by sidelining their choice for a leader.
No matter how it goes, there is going to be a lot of unrest and violence in Egypts future. I am sure right now that many in Egypt are secretly, if not openly, wishing they could go back to the days of relative peace and stability that they had under Mubarak, since it seems likely that no matter what happens in the election, the people are going to wind up worse of than they were at the start of this "revolution."
That means they are voting for female mutilation. So that just shows you how stupid these people really are. If you let the morons decide what is right and what is wrong then you get moronic rights and wrongs. the Muslim Brotherhood is quickly becoming obsolete. The world is too small to have 14 century rules and laws.
If the Muslim Brotherhood takes over that will mean the end of tourism in Egypt. So that means they are voting for economic ruin. Because all Egypt has is tourism and hate. After finding out in this article about how they have treated their women why would I ever want to go to a cultural crap hole anyway. What a bunch of idiots blaming poor bullied women for their problems.
If the "Muslim Brotherhood" takes power, You can bet that Israel will start dusting off their nukes, something tells me they've already started. When will the people of the Middle East realize that blindly following the religion of hate will only lead them to disaster and total destruction. If mankind survives the mental illness of religion then we may have a chance to actually reach our potential as a species. However with all the religious nut-bags here and all around the world, THAT'S A VERY BIG IF.
How strangely quiet it is in Code Pink land. All the liberals and leftists were 100% behind the Arab Spring, Hillary waxing prosaic and Obama, well, he did give that speech in Cairo. Isn't it strange how the media is downplaying this as well, not too many articles on this in the MSM. Guess they don't want to admit to the possibilty that female genital mutilation is part of their support of the 'revolution.' Then, all those who looked at the 'revolution' and said it would ultimately end up like this were shouted down, told they were ignorant and haters. Obama and his administration bent over backwards to describe the Muslim Brotherhood as secular and progressive, invited them into the White House, all was dandy.
Now the truth comes to the fore and all the folks who were so very pro-democracy are suddenly very quiet. How odd.
You know, it's terribly sad. When the protests began, I thought (or should I say "hoped") that the Muslim world was finally bringing about their own version of the "The Great Enlightenment" (if you don't know what that is, curse yourself for failing high school and look it up). I thought that, at last, some semblance of balance and peace might be achieved-- and not just limited to Egypt, I hoped the "Arab Spring" would bring a level of modernity and secularism to the entire region-- but look what's happened instead. I guess I overestimated the strength of the liberal revolutionaries that opposed dictatorship and religious tyranny. Now, it seems, they have two choices in Egypt:
1. Crush everyone who dissents.
2. Crush Christians and women.
In either case, they're voting for a new dictator and vaulting themselves into a civil war. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
And @Mygirl -- I categorize myself as an independent conservative on budget & international policies, and an independent liberal on social policies-- so I don't know where I would stand in your political spectrum, but I supported the Arab Spring initially-- I had high hopes. And now, by the very power the people gave themselves, they're giving it right back to the kind of people they took it from. Idiots!
Surprise, surprise, "It's looks like the Muslim Brotherhood is going to win. We helped get rid of one dictator and are going to help put in another. And we now have the "second" worse president we have ever had over there embarrassing our nation.
This is no longer a clear cut case. The “hot heads” most of them from outside Egypt have been sidelined and the people are for once starting to think for themselves. It appears that a return to the dark ages is no longer the “feel good”, preferred option.
That's what everyone said about Turkey too. Then the Islamists won an election and with that legitimacy have slowly but surely taken power over ALL the levers of power in the country, including the staunchly secular military whose leadership was purged and replaced by Islamist officers and generals. The former guardians of secularism lost.
The same thing can and will happen in Egypt if the Brotherhood wins decisively and uses that legitimacy to purge the armed forces. If the military decides to counteract that outcome they will have to move fast and with ruthless determination. The outside world will probably condemn that. It's not at all certain, imo, that the miltary can or will stage an immediate coup.
Egypt is about to implode and none of the options look good now. There should never have such a rush to throw Mubarak under the bus. He was an authoritarian, yes, but there was order and at least some prosperity. Now the lucrative tourist trade is in ruins, the Egyptian economy is staggering, crime is skyrocketing, and egypt is descending into chaos. Some of us tried to warn of exactly this outcome.
Some of us tried to warn of exactly this outcome.
Yes, and if memory serves, we were roundly trounced for doing so. I am appalled at the Muslim Brotherhood's barbarity towards women, not surprised mind you, anyone capable of doing research and wading through the lies to the contrary, would realize that they were rabidly fundamentalist Islam from the get go.
Interesting article in that it actually states, unequivocally that the jiziya exists. So many times that notion has been denied and disabused as fiction or verses quoted stating that such 'fabrications' weren't in the Koran. So, if the 'secular' Muslim Brotherhood comes into power then female castration, pedophilia and serious oppression of all non-muslims commences. Oh, eternal joy indeed. Pray for the Copts, they will be decimated.
My guess would be the hard-line Brotherhood will win, since most Egyptians dislike the US, and then they will write a new constitution that basically outlaws all other religions and takes away the women's right to vote, which will ensure that the Brotherhood retains power, and this will be the first and last Western-style election. Shades of Iran.
Then we'll see if the military acts, or if the Brotherhood is successful in purging the military.
The way that Obama pulled the rug from under our ally Mubarak is proof of the old adage; "With friends like that, who needs enemies".
Yes, John, look what we got - Dumbama.
And the White House was occupied by Jimmy Carter, who was back then considered worst president ever. Instead of greenliting the Shah to crack down, he mumbled something uninteligible about "human rights".
The rest, including Reagan's victory, is history.
It's deja vu all over again, just replace "Tehran" with "Cairo" and "Carter" with "Obama".
mygirl1, it's people like you that give democracy and the pursuit of democracy a bad name. So, what, Egyptians should just throw up their hands in despair and stop fighting for basic rights? Jeez, it's a good thing you weren't around during the Revolutionary War. You did learn about the Revolutionary War didn't you? We fought for our freedom, just like the Egyptian people tried. And, yes, revolutions don't always go as planned. And, yes, gaining freedoms can be hard work. Egypt's biggest failure won't be how this first election turns out. Their biggest failure will be to take your advice, concede failure, blame someone else, and then do nothing.
Hey Anonymous. Have you ever heard of a group called Hamas? Considering your selective history lesson, I would guess not. Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinians with the support and direction of none other than George Bush. So, Republican AND Democratic presidents try to promote freedom in places in the world where freedoms are fleeting. I know, it is clear that getting freedom in that region of the world is hard; some may even say impossible. So, what, we should just give up? Hardly the American way.
jimsepa: Except that the cries for 'democracy' in the Arab Spring were started by whom? Interesting how often regime change is a change for the worst. Look at Ukraine. Nice to have ideological aspirations, however, there's lots more that needs to be added to the equasion. During the American Revolution there were leaders from the beginning and a specific goal, hardliners weren't waiting in the sidelines for their chance to gain power. If the Egyptain people had more time and less rabble rousers seeking power then I would have had more hope for the revolution and for democracy. I would like to see a truly democratic government in the Middle East but until people realize that Islam is not a peaceful religion that will be hard to come by.
Cutting out the genitals of prepubescent girls will not balance your budget you demented apes! The koran is obviously an instruction manual for the mentally ill.
mygirl, I hope you aren't alluding to the notion that we, the United States, started the Arab Spring. Check out the Middle East Policy Council for an explanation for why millions of Egyptians hit the streets. Evidently, systems ("liberation technologies") were being used since about 2004 to promote a change in Egypt. Evidently, "liberation" has been on the minds of Egyptians for some time. Maybe the events in Tunisia sparked the fire as far as the timing of the uprising?
Policy paper from the Middle East Policy Council:
http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/arab-spring-us-democracy-promotion-egypt
Silly Egyptians. They think the only choices are corruption or Islam. All they have to do is look at the US government and they can see that...ummmm.. errrr... Oh well! I guess maybe they are right.
Islam does not create jobs, it creates mayhem toward women and non muslims. It allows the annihilation of women and non muslim, forced conversion. It creates a different caste for women and non muslim. Islam does not believe in equality ever since it was created in the 7th century. Taqiyya is widely practiced to enable islamist win the mind of the masses and once they took control after an election, the massacre starts. Look at the hamas in Gaza, nowadays they don't allow any opposition groups. Islamist once they got control and enjoy the power in a democratical election they will never let go and creates new law to decimate the oppostition. If anyone believes the islamist word he/she is a fool, look at hamas and Iran the promises is there , never kept.
Democracy depends on the type of people and their beliefs and practices.
Except for Turkey, no Muslim nation has democracy. Even Turkey has started march to seventh century desert Islamic days.
Saudis have done the maximum damage.
By inventing Iraqi wars and manipulating high oil prices, they made themselves rich and established their extremist version of Sunni Islamic Salaffi and Wahhabi versions all over the world.
In Egypt, Salaffis have gained substantially and they are backers of the Muslim Brotherhood, a banned party for 80 years! One can forget Egypt.
This Islamic extremism will harm the world terriblly unless Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, another exporter of Islamic terrorists are erased from the world map.
Act now or pay heavily later.
jimsepa:
I hope you aren't alluding to the notion that we, the United States, started the Arab Spring.
The only one making that assertion is you. The United States had investments in Mubarak, why would the government want him gone? He was an ally. While the assumption has been made that the revolution was spontaneous, look at what is currently happening. Who is profiting from the turmoil? Certainly not the US.
"Who is profiting from this Turmoil?"
NOT the U.S.
NOT israel....
....and certainly NOT The Egyptian People....
(although they WONT Know THAT for a while)
.
Yep, I TOLD ALL OF YOU WHAT WAS HAPPENING EVER SINCE PRESIDENT OBAMA'S MARCH 2009 POLICY.
Still posting uninformed things BigAl Las Vegas. I already told you over and over and over and over again just like you are a 2 year old. For Islamic Believers (Muslims = completely subjugated to Islam), Islam is NOT your Western limiting definition of "Religion". For Islamic Believers Islam is ALL, All Politics, All Laws, All Ways of Life (and Death), All Culture, All Beliefs, etc. that SUPERCEDE the politics, laws, ways of life, cultures, beliefs, etc. of all other nations.
What the Author of this Article MUST do is add Fundamentalist Islamic in front of Muslim Brotherhood, Republic of Iran, Pakistanis People (not including the US Ally Pakistanis Government), Al Quada, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (aka Libyan Rebels), Arab League of Nations, etc. as Fundamentalist Islamic Muslim Brotherhood, Fundamentalist Islamic Republic of Iran, Fundamentalist Islamic Pakistanis People (not including the US Ally Pakistanis Government), Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic Arab League of Nations, Fundamentalist Islamic Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (aka Libyan Rebels), etc..
The Author also left out one of the most influential people of the "Islamic World" as Co founder of the Fundamentalist Islamic Muslim Brotherhood, Amin Al Husseini. Amin Al Husseini was the Representative of the "Islamic World" that signed the 1933 Forever Alliance with Chancellor Adolf Hitler, started the Fundamentalist Islamic Arab League of Nations (original Charter the Extermination of the Jews), established Fundamentalist Islamic Muslim Elite SS Brigades, demanded that Future Generations be "Indoctrinated" (Brainwashed) into becoming Fundamentalist Islamic Believers with everyone else wrong (Dead), etc..
Yep, Told all of you about Egypt, Syria, Libya (now after former US Ally President Gaddaffi, Fundamentalist Islamic Republic of Libya), Fundamentalist Islamic Republic of Iraq, Yemen, Fundamentalist Islamic Pakistan, here (Afghanistan), Fundamentalist Islamic Republic of Iran, Sudan, Somalia, etc.. But, no all of you said I was wrong; eventhough it is part of my Job to know (or find out if I do not know) since the 1980s.
Once again thank you President Obama for your March 2009 Policy that Resulted in undoing our (US Military Asymmetric Warfare) Strategic Work of Decades.
All of you that previously kept posting your uninformed uneducated non factual emotive opinions now YOU will have to "Deal With It" (Fix what President Obama F**ked up), as most of us are going back on Retirement again (Never tp be Recalled to Active Duty ever again in the Special Category). Your chances of surviving to become old like us and go back on Retirement again, minimal; of the thousands of us that first started out during the 1980s there are only less than Redacted of us "Middle East" Qualified US Military Asymmetric Warfare, Good F**king Luck Generation X and Generation Y, you hired President Obama so YOU go fix the mess he created for you or die trying (most of you being all mouth, words, hot air (farts), that you will attempt to blame someone else or expect someone else to do your Dirty Work (Wet Work)).
Currently working on getting the Families that I lived with while attending College at Egypt out of Egypt. Since they do not speak any English I am thinking having them go to one of the last US Allies left at the "Middle East", US Ally Saudi Arabia.
Still waiting for the Fundamentalist Islamic Republic of Iran to move the Supersonic and Hypersonic Anti Ship Missile Batteries and the current 21st Century Anti Aircraft Intergrated Batteries to protect the Anti Ship Missile Batteries along with the Chinese and Russian Federation Maintenance Technicians that they have mobilized to Egypt to control the Strategic Suez Canal.
>>How strangely quiet it is in Code Pink land.<<
They are appalled that what they thought was "cool" was a lie. Misogyny was unbelievable, it couldn't really exist. . . I'll let them explain the horrifying practice of FGM to the kiddies that will "benefit" from it. Code Pink is an organisation of fools. But, hey, they believed it because the leftist weepies told them it would be OK. So sorry!!!
Islam will get you if it can!!!
Because they are brainwashed. Too bad they don’t see it is making their lives worse. The endless fight for Israel has cost them their lives, economy, and livelihood. They should keep the muslim brotherhood banned for another 80 years!
Now didn’t Obama push for the muslim brotherhood? But he is “all for” womens rights….Michelle and his daughters must be so proud of him!
Wake up America....muslims are pushing for Sharia Law here too!!!
mygirl, Mubarak, an ally of the US, who is on trial for killing protesters, whose regime tried, convicted and imprisoned thousands of Egyptians who the state considered a threat to his dictatorship. It's not surprising people took it to the streets.
Mubarak was smart enough to take on average over $2 billion dollars from the US every year since 1979.
Egypt gets more US money than any other country except for Israel. I guess we should give him billions of our tax dollars and overlook how he treats his own. Good deal for Mubarak.
Many in the Revolution were just doing what they were told to. Many did not even know what they wanted and now they are going to regret what they get. I feel sorry because if the MB gains power I feel Egypt and the World will loose much of its history as was seen in the burning of the Egyptian Scientific Institute. The joy and dancing during the burning was sickening.
As written by Zahi Hawass
This is a sad day for all of us who love Egypt. No one can believe that the Egyptian Scientific Institute has been destroyed.
On December 17, 2011, I joined the many people who watched the disaster on television. I was horrified to see the library burning in front of my eyes. This day will never be forgotten by intellectuals, and indeed all who love learning, not only in Egypt, but all over the world.
I was terribly upset to see young people in front of the building rejoicing at what they had done. When I looked at their faces, I could see that the majority were people who had nothing to do with the Revolution. I saw one boy of about 12 who was asked why he was there. He replied that he wanted el-Ganzory (the recently-appointed Prime Minister) to leave the government. I am sure that someone told this boy to say these words. Why can we not give el-Ganzory a chance to work and to bring safety and security back to the country? I saw another person say that we need the military to leave. This is not wise. The military council helped ensure the success of the revolution. They have promised to complete the elections and the new constitution before June 2012, and I think we should give them a chance to do this.
The day after the Institute burned down, my dear friend Salah Montaser, a famous columnist who has a daily feature in the Al-Ahram newspaper, called me and told me that almost 90,000 books had been lost, containing over 300 years of our shared history. As we spoke, we both had tears in our eyes.
The Egyptian Scientific Institute was founded by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1798, and holds about 20,000 manuscripts and rare books. It is the oldest scientific academy in the Arab world. It is registered as an antiquities site and is therefore the responsibility of the Supreme Council of Antiquities. I could not believe that the people who burned it down were Egyptians. Samir Gharib, one of Egypt’s great writers, told me that he saw one woman whistling with joy; he could not believe it, or understand at all why she was doing this. But I am sure that they are ignorant, and do not understand what they have done.
Many great books of our history are now ashes.
When realism & rational thought fail ... blame Obama .............
newscover "When realism & rational thought fail ... blame Obama ..........."
When realism and rational thought succeed, blame Obama............
lol
Sounds to me that Egypt got rid of their Republicans. Good to go. Suck on this bone NBC!
For all the idiots who think Egypt voted islamist just because the MB guy got 30% remember that the rest of the candidates are secular. 70% of Egypt voted secular. Idiots.
Moe keeps posting this drivel but it's simply not true.
You will see the Muslim Brotherhood gain ascendancy. They have the political machine in place, they bus the ignorant to polling stations, give them a little money and tell them what to do. Very similar to what happened with the immigrants coming here for the first time in the late eighteen and early nineteen hundreds. The hardliner from Mubarak will not get the election and he and the candidate for the Muslim Brotherhood are the top two contenders. Lots of candidates to weed through and those two come out on top. Interesting, no?
As to the pathetic statement that 'Egypt got rid of its republicans.' Many of the Egyptains are very poor and illiterate, they will follow because they know no better. Rather like the person making the aforementioned statement. Also interesting that suddenly, when MSNBC actually posts an intelligent and honest article, the hardliners dismiss it. Facts are not welcome.
If this article is even generally correct, there's no hope for Egypt and it would seem that a military coup would be the lesser of the evils. I'll bet right about now, Mubarak isn't looking so bad.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
As I see it, you have your revolutionaries, many of who seem to be educated and wanting democracy and would probably prefer a secular ruler.. and then you have your poor country folk, the vast majority of them are probably not educated and have no hope for the future. They, the poor, will probably vote for the Brotherhood. Don't blame them if they vote for the Brotherhood--that's democracy in action. Those of you who are putting Egypt down, don't forget that we have the same thing here in the U.S.A. Here we have a large Christian group of citizens who'll vote Republican even tho the Republican politicians don't and won't do anything for those Christian voters and will only look after the interests of Corporate America and big business. Just replace the saying "Islam is the solution" with "Romney is the solution" and you see how frightening the future might be, both in Egypt and in the U.S.A. Not that I'm crazy about Obama but, just like in Egypt, he's the lesser of two evils.
Sooner or later, Egypt is going to get "most peaceful" and "most loving" version Saudi Sunni Salafi Muslim Brotherhood.
It will be interesting "matches" between the most smart people on earth, Isreali Jews and next smarter Salaffi Sunnis as neighbors!
They were inventing enemies like Saddam, Assad, Iranian mullahs and other places!
Is Sunnis vs Shiites "love" and "peace" become too strong, Israel may get a break.
But all appear to be in big hurries!
Jonathon, as you observed,
"IF the Sunni "Muslim love" for the Shi'a, AND the Shi'a "Muslim love" for the Sunni, continues...."
Israel WILL "get a Break".
<><><><>
GOD's WILL
Let Egyptians worry about their country and keep our tax dollars work for our country!
Exactly that's what Egyptians wanted all along, but your politicians don't listen.
I think it is hilarious if they think Islam will bring justice. Christianity has yet to bring justice, probably it is more civilizing but it is not just. No religion is.
As for the Egyptian problem. It is a mid-east problem. That whole area is messed up, has been messed up since the beginning of time and will remain messed up until the end of time. The only time there will be peace there is when ever man, woman, and child is dead. The only thing they know how to do is hate and kill.
Nothing will take place in the way of political change without the recognition and approval of the most revered institution in the country....the Egyptian military, which has run this country for the past 60 plus years. They will not just go away and to believe otherwise requires a level of naivety that would qualify as irrationality. Bottom line...do not be surprised if a major bloodbath is the end result.
that's the thing...it was easy for the military to force mubarek to step down..after all, he's almost dead anyway, and had a good run. They threw him under the bus to appease the people.
what happens next will be interesting..and hopefully not deadly.
Farmboy, obviously you have never been there.....And it would seem you must have a phd in douchbaggery...I lived there for 3 years and I know for a fact you are dead wrong. Sorry to see my friends there in such a bad way, I hope it will all work out or that they can at least get out...
Messed up is right. Farmboy is right. If someone is still living in Egypt then they are screwed. Having your daughter castrated must be a real honour.
I will take Hillbilies over Muslims anyday. At least they protect their families no matter what.
Uh, it is farmkid1 NOT farmboy. Obviously you can't comprehend what you read. Nor do you know where I've been in my life. You should not assume. Besides this is a forum for opinions. And yes I do feel sorry for those people, but they create their own problems and thus can solve them IF they truly wanted too.
I had a different opinion of the Muslim Brotherhood in that they had their beginning in the 1930's and I believed that they had moderated in the interim. Richard Engle is one hell of a reporter and, if he is correct, I'll need to do more research. The report on FGM is nightmarish. I've known many Egyptians. They're wonderful and intelligent people. I hope they have a chance for a peaceful and prosperous future.
Margyle, while I wouldn't use Farmkid's wording, especially about the death of every man, woman and child being the ONLY way to fix issues with the Middle East, I do agree that that they are misguided if they think Islam will solve all of their problems. Any nation that makes laws based on a specific religious doctrine is bound to be oppressive and therefore non-functional. It's the politicization and "institution" of Islam that is to blame (which is the same for any religious "institution", including Christianity). I don't think any religion was formed with the intent to spread hate and intolerance. But hey, what better way to keep the faithful in-line than telling them everyone else is literally evil and they will become evil as well if they don't conform.
jimsepa, Viners,
The EVIL,
is ACTUALLY
The DEMAND
For Conformity
The Shi'a idea of Islam, does NOT Conform to The Sunni idea of Islam.....
The Sunni Muslims would HAPPILY MURDER All Shi'a Muslims, IF Only they Could....!
IF, Islam did NOT DEMAND that ALL People would BECOME Muslim, by book OR by SWORD,
Then Islam, would probably be a tolerated, (if NOT admired) Cult
(MOST Western Women are NOT(!!!!) "Less" than a Man)
Western Women CAN BE Soldiers for their Country and
If these Female soldiers ARE Good Leaders and ARE Good Tacticians
These *Ladies* CAN COMMAND The Military Efforts of Their Countries Men AND Women Soldiers
IN The Christian Armies and IN The Jewish Army....!!!!
NOT SO, in ANY Islamic Army....!!!!
The Women IN The WEST, *MORE than "Tip The Scales", ==>>to The WESTERN WAY.
Thank GOD
!
Hitler was a BIG fan of the Muslim Brotherhood. And they felt the same way about him. And they both wanted, almost more than anything else, to kill all the Jews in the world.
Please read your history, it will amaze you.
Nope. Newsvine "Get Smarter Here" is a Forum for ADULTS NOT kids to discuss Facts; not emotive uneducated uninformed opinions.
Once again all words, hot air, no Actions. What are you doing to help your friends get out of Egypt.
Nope, Illegal under the Fundamentalist Islamic Muslim Brotherhood's Charter and Fundamentalist Islamic Laws.
NOBODY IS BELIEVING YOUR NONSENSE ANYMORE.
The Sunnis are the Moderate, Liberal, Rule of Law (Fiqh, Logic), Human Rights, Modern, Westernized, etc.. Their Misbelief just like the US and most Western Nations, "We did not harm anyone so no one should do harm to us" (sheeps to be massacred by the Shia).
The primary example for the surviving Sunnis (only example left) of a successful Sunnis Nation is US Ally Saudi Arabia.
The Shia are the Fundamentalist Islamic, Fundamentalist Islamic Interpretation of the Holy Koran (Quran) Only all others are wrong (Dead), Fundamentalist Islamic Shia (aka Sharia Laws) Laws and Hadith (ancient Islamic Customs as Laws) Laws. So due to the Fundamentalist Islamic Interpretation of the Holy Koran (Quran) everything "Non Islamic", "Western", "Modern", etc. is NOT allowed by anyone, and the 109 Suras of the 114 Suras of the Holy Koran (Quran) Calls to All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers, is just that a Declared War for All Islamic Believers to participate in or the Death Penalty. The Shia consider the Sunnis as Islamic Heretics subject to Death.
It is NORMAL not the exception for Shia to use Armed Force first not words (negotiations).
The primary example of a Shia Nation considered a success for all Shia is the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran.
Because Osama Bin Laden was a Fundamentalist Islamic Believer, he created his Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist Organization of Al Quada to fight against US Ally Saudi Arabia (Sunnis), the US, and US Allies. This is why the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government of Afghanistan got along so well with Fundamentalist Islamic Osama Bin Laden and Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada. Also why the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran got along so well with all of them (Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government of Afghanistan, Fundamentalist Islamic Osama Bin Laden, Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada, etc. and even provided funding from the Trillions per year of Mandatory Islamic Tithes of the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide, Weapons, Training, Military Equipment, Islamic Sanctuary, etc.).
Farmkid, it's not necessary religion that does not bring justice, it is humanity.... look at Russia that forbid any religion. Religion offers a teaching that morality can be based, but we all fall short and chose to be immoral, but we would rather blame a "religion" than take responsibility our our human actions.......
very good.
There will always be moral and immoral characters, regardless of the presence of religion. However, the presence of religion provides followers with justification to persecute others with different beliefs, as believers then think they are doing "god's" work.
Look at FGM, it is a disgusting practice that is based off of a story about a talking snake and a woman made from ribs...absolutely ridiculous
Religion was created by humans. To use or abuse. Most prefer to abuse. Holier then thou and thus you must die philosophy.
That is true, Atlas, except formalized religions (or at least some religious leaders with power within formalized religion) use eternal damnation or the wrath of God to make sure people don't think for themselves. Really, it's a pretty effective way to get people to do or say something they otherwise KNOW is not moral by any standards.
Um, let's see here, where did the concept of 'moral' come from? When did the idea of 'moral' come into existence and how was it defined?
A rock and a hard place. There is no hope for Egypt. There are just too many poor, uneducated people who are hyper conservative / religious.
Egypt will probably go the way of the Taliban, or descend into civil war with the Muslim Brotherhood.
I feel sorry for liberal / educated/ reasonable Egyptians who actually started this revolution to oust nepotism and corruption.
Didn't our Muslim in Chief tells us his Muslim Brotherhood wouldn't be a factor in Egypt?
Yes our muslim in chief who attended the same christian church most of his adult life and numerous other, all christian churches as a child. This is really a devious man who admits to drinking, pot use and carousing with women as a young man and attending christian churches since in diapers all to fool the infidels. I'd say you people need to think but obviously you can't.
The grass is always green on the other side of the fence, but you still have to mow it. ?Another Iran?
haha who wrote this garbage article? it has nothing to do with reality whatsoever. Good love the good ole Zionazi anti-muslim American media.
Are they talking about anti-government rallies in Egypt or protests against Republicans in the US?
"Islam will make things better. Islam will bring justice." And I have some ocean front property for sale in south west egypt.
Yet another Sharia @!$%# hole, courtesy of Islam.
Good Work Obama!
Your friend,
Jimmy Carter
Looks like things turned out exactly as anticipated. This is what happens in this region. However they elect is just the new dictator, but before that can happen there needs to be a bloody civil war immediately following the elections.
Obama's getting what he wanted the Muslim Brotherhood in power. Such a lovely Arab Spring
Anyone else notice the hand counted paper ballots with pictures of the candidates as well as their names and party symbols. Why can't I get one of those in this country again?
We can only hope the Egyptians are smart enough to not vote in the radical Islamists. They will regret it.
Considering that the Salafists and Mus. Brotherhood together won about 75% of the vote in the parliamentary elections, that hope seems like a longshot.
you think
Obamas counts on the stupid voteing him again
Bad(secular) & worse(Islamic).
Democracy isn't all its crack up to be, in the US the 1% of the population determine what the other 99% are allowed to do. The justice system is a political system, it not about guilt or innocent its about money. We have one of the most corrupt republican supreme courts to ever be seated. The justices are all part of the 1% and they want their money and what money will buy. Our justice system is corrupt from the local police to the supreme court, mayors and governors use the police and the courts as private system to punish the 99%. We have local police taking money from the drug cartels and we have the judges taking money from the drug cartels. Now that the presidential candidates do not have to disclose where their money is coming from, don't be supprised if China selects a presidential candidate to back during the next election. We have our so called supreme court to thank for this decision. How much justice can you afford today.
The country is on the verge of Bankruptcy thanks to the Liberals in Congress. We need President Romney to put more Conservative Justices on the Supreme Court to insure that this country follows the Constitution.
Kudos to the 2nd Amendment
Kudos to Article V of the Constitution
Kudos to our Electoral College that prevents the more populous States like California and New York from Controlling the Elections
republicans are the cause of our bankruptcy-always has been their unpaid for spending that will ruin this country. when the next civil war comes perhaps we can rid ourselves fron republican duplicity once and for all.
You sound as though you are reading from Barracks Teleprompter. We need to rid our Great Country of all of you Liberal Socialists and send you to Greece where you will be appreciated.
The People will speak in November. Please start packing and please take your family with you.
WE are ALL Americans,
Democrats and Republicans and Independents,
The Election is The Election, Only of an American President over an American Congress.
NO Worse and NO Better than The Election of A CEO of a Giant Corporation...
WE ARE ALL Americans,
and Americans CELEBRATE America AND Americans of ALL Persuasions
Long Live OUR Republic/Democracy
We haven't had a democrat lead us into a war since Kennedy. Under republicans we've had 3 since.
your right we have the balls to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not you kiss ass dumacrats
We voted in 2008 and look what we got. We made a partial correction in 2010 but we must set our great Country straight in November 2012.
The only way that will happen is for us (the 99%) to tell ALL the politicians in Washington to grow up and start behaving like adults. That means the Repuglicans, the Dumbocrats and The Pee Potty. The ONLY thing that will set this country straight is compromise! As long as both sides of the aisle continue to point fingers and call names and stonewall the other sides proposals, that will never happen. Congress is most assuredly the opposite of progress. This country needs either a Viable third party,(the Pee Potty isn't it) or a leader who can really bring both sides together, and I see neither in this election. I will vote the alternative this time around and urge everyone else to do the same. That's the only way we'll get real change, otherwise it's the same old same old and after 61 years I for one have had enough.
your right he had his chance and what did he do?he placed all Clinton left overs to make him look good.Hes a joke and strung us all along.He hates this country and will do his best to make us slaves.Wake the hell up look at his Buds! all of them hate this country.Obama would not have even come to light if not from here in the greatest country in the world.This country made him by being fair to all thats here.Hes a loser
Obama and everybody wanted Mubarak out. You got your wish. Too bad you can't control the election. Stay out of there with troops to protect Egypt from the Egyptians. Remember we are granting religious freedoms here in the US. Other countries don't see it that way. As for dictators, one thing you can say for them, they can keep their people in line. Obama is doing a great job of foreign relations. Stir up the population and get a change. See what his "change" and "unacceptable" has gotten us?
Makes me wonder exactly what Obama had in mind when he supported this revolt. And how does he want it to go now. My guess is that he wants the Muslim Brotherhood to gain power. I wonder whether he likes to see the chaos that exists now and that is sure to escalate.
No american president could ever publically back a dictator against a popular uprising and you tea party idiots know it. Every republican politician verbally supported the egyptians right to protest Mubarak and demanded he stop violence against peaceful protests. No one from either party wanted Mubarak out but nothing we could do would stop it. Better to appear supportive of our ideals than hypocrits.
the dumacrat speaks tell me more ! insults you excell at like your boy Obama
I guess were stating to understand these people need a heavy handed ruler if for no other reason then to save them from Islam and themselves.
They are going through history right now. This action of voting is the first time that they have had an individual mandate selecting their leaders from a list of candidates. It's not going to be easy. We selected psuedonobility and after 100years it turned into robber barons. Now some of us in the USA are trying to return us to that era of robber barons. Egypt must go through some history too. That's all.
I see no good options in Egypt, at least our optons in this country are a little better. I am just glad we will have an alternative to Obama. It will be interesting to see what our future will hold next year.
mandate your an ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your a Dumacrate Zig Hiel
Not brain dead, join the militray and defend America. You're just a keyboard commando.
The United States scripts all this nonsense, assassinations, puppet-regimes, political de-stabilizations. The middle east is exactly how the US planned it since WWII. "In our troubled times, Islam isn't the solution to our problems, Islam IS the problem." A deadly, brutal political cult that should be wiped off the face of the earth.
The problem is they feel the same about Christians, and Jew, and any other religions. Of course Democrats feel that way about Republicans, and Independants.