Wow, Barack Obama has own kill lists now just like Adolf Hitler isn't he!

See what the dollar as the "world currency" will get you?

Not only has our country gone berserk, but we are able to change the language on a daily basis as well.

Dem, Rep, doesn't matter. Worse yet, they still represent you and I as Americans to the world.

Situational ethics = no ethics

Obama already had an enemies list that would make Nixon envious, but I'm not aware that Nixon had a kill list.

We better hope he's able to keep them separate.

...an infant Muslim is a 'known terrorist'? You have got to be joking...

It makes me "so tired" to have to state the obvious. The infant would never be the actual target. Every American president has been responsible for numerous civilian deaths, some more than others. To single out Obama for civilian casualties is just a little hypocritical.

Makes your assessment right, doesn't it. 'Collateral damage' is always justified, we go kill civilians, women, and kids in order to eradicate 'suspected terrorists'.
Wait till this extends to the US of A.

don, Would you feel the same when the drones in the USA take out innocents as well? Why does he even bother changing the definition of a word if it is just business as usual

Unless you are the type of person that abhors all human loss of life, no matter the circumstances, and takes every president to task when innocent people die, whether it be WWII, Vietnam, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, or Afganistan, then I don't want to have to read your crap about Obama.

As an aside, to extropolate civilian casualties in Somolia to the US bombing its own territory is just a little extreme.

Kill them first and then try to prove they are not militants???? There would be a lot of incentive to prove that they are not militants, YEAH RIGHT!

H8tparty, do you also know how many Vietcong were reported killed during the Viet Nam War by the government? Just because they say they killed them doesn't make it so!

Don't care whether it's Bush, Nixon, or Obama. If you're playing world police, you have an obligation to protect the innocent, no matter their ethnicity.

World war 2 rings to mind. To Japanese cities gone, but it ended the war with them. If i have to kill some civilians because you started the war, to damn bad.

DWC in Fl

"H8tparty, do you also know how many Vietcong were reported killed during the Viet Nam War by the government? Just because they say they killed them doesn't make it so!"

Your talking about body counts right. I have counted more than my share also water buffalo and even pigs were counted in some instances. So what's your point. Nam was all about controlling the rice and protecting Michelin rubber and Esso gas and oil refineries. How do I know I was stationed at both.

You guys are hilarious you just make up facts to fit your agenda.

I cannot get over how poorly written some of these stories are:

How do you spell "AUTHORIZE"? Apparently it is done so like: Authorise

I just cannot force myself to read the rest of the story in fear that I will be dumber as I progress.

If China sends a drone over here and murders my children, I'm going to do everything possible for the rest of my life to kill and support the killing of every Chinese on the face of the earth. For me, the only good Chinese would be a dead Chinese.

So, Obama kills one terrorist and creates 20 more to take his place.

Yep. That's smart.

How is this any different from what the previous President did? War is a dirty business, far dirtier than any of you cubicle warriors can stomach. And the odd part is that many of you praised or ignored when the President that started these wars did many of the same things. and patter123, ask yourself: did you have the same objections or apply the same logic when President Bush adopted the policy of "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here?" I have a funny feeling you didn't.

Only difference is that this administration is giving each one of them a name and a title. You said it yourself, it is the body count. In this case, they just want to make it sound more impressive by listing a name. Still does not mean they are dead. And Afghanistan is all about the minerals and the pretty little flowers!

I guess all the posters who want to prosecute Bush and Cheney for war crimes will have to add Obama to their list.................

I think one scary thing out of this whole discussion is that some of the terrorists that the drones took out on the "kill list" were US citizens so that as citizens, they were denied due process of the law. I am really on the fence on this one because I understand that they were terrorists and I would not want them to cause any more harm to anyone. However, I also believe in supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States. So the question then becomes do you defend the Constitution by violating the Constitution?

The thing is, while everyone knows they were terrorists and fewer terrorists is a good thing, according to the law and the US Constitution, they are guaranteed certain rights if they are US citizens. The fifth amendment states that the government cannot deprive any person "of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

If anything, we must make sure that in defending the United States and to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, we do not violate the Constitution because then we are caught in a logical fallacy of violating the oath of office and the Constitution that we are sworn to protect.

I do not know if the answer is an amendment or law that suspends citizenship if someone is declared an enemy combatant or just making sure that we hold a trial or something. Otherwise, this is a slippery slope. It might seem a minor point to some, but you have to realize as a US citizen and under the US Constitution, you have certain guaranteed rights.

AC Robertson

IMO - Obama should try to defend this definition while standing in front of the Hague Court...

Does Former President Bush or any other President before him fall into this same category? I am sure you are familiar with "The Axis of Evil and Fight Terror with Terror" comments. Amazing how so many criticize Obama when others have done the VERY same thing.

about right

It is all the way around you libs love change the issue to your favor, while you'll Obama supporters call for the head of Bush and Cheney, also ground the head of your leader under the sand so no body can see him doing the same thing, Obama is following the Bush's path to kill the enemies. The use of drones over civilians is even worst to the critics from Democrats, calling our Army terrorist killing civilians in the darkness of the night. The killing of Osama was intentional, to avoid conflicts whith their own point of view about how to bring to trial a terrorist into civilian courts.

I hope I win The Nobel Peace Prize....then I can get me one of those "Licence to Kill" thingies....Was James Bond 007 a Nobel Peace Prize winner too ??....What's Obama's Number -- 00666 --- ???

"Mr. President, can we Waterboard this terrorist to gain valuable intel ??"...." No, no, that would be torture".." Can I scare him by letting my German Shepard growl and Bark at him"."No"...Can I put a pair of womens panties on his head ??" "No"....

Just send a drone missile up his butt and vaporize him and his wife and kids".....That's how a kinder and gentler America does it.....Thanks, Barry.......Fire at will....

Has anybody else noticed that MSNBC is becoming more and more foxlike everyday? I hear the right always bitching and moaning over the liberal media but all I ever seem to see from any mainstream newsource anymore is right wing bull@!$%#!

If you ask me, the main problem with the middle east is that none of the attacks against us are ever done with the official backing of any actual government, even though in reality there is huge amounts of government involvement, it's just all very well hidden. We are not being attacked by soldiers, we are being attacked by civilians. So who does that leave to retaliate against? Civilians.

Stop trying to wage wars against little groups and countries that have never openly attacked us and wage war on the real enemy, islam as a whole and religious fundamentalism in general. The best weapon against indoctrination and ignorance? Education!

the very first covert drone strikes of the Obama presidency, just three days after he took office, resulted in civilian deaths in Pakistan. As many as 19 civilians – including four children – died in two error-filled attacks.

If these were error-filled attacks just three days after obummer took office, they had to be bush's fault. His highness is infallible.

wage war on the real enemy, Islam as a whole and religious fundamentalism in general. The best weapon against indoctrination and ignorance? Education!

iving in the woods

I have to agree in part with your statement, but education is not the solution, many terrorist come from educated middle class family. Education is not the solution, the solution is promote secular societies , has long their lives , Government, Laws, are ruled by the Koran , nothing is going to change. We are the enemy, we are the infidels, they are living a religious war agaist us.

Education is not the solution, the solution is promote secular societies , has long their lives , Government, Laws, are ruled by the Koran , nothing is going to change. We are the enemy, we are the infidels, they are living a religious war agaist us.

I agree 100% with the gist of your statement but, I believe that promoting secular society is a core part of education, that is unfortunately under attack by a party that I used to mistakenly respect when I was younger.

Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster.

-William Tecumseh Sherman

And why is anyone bothered by all this? Collateral Damage is going to happen. Congrats to President Obama. He figured out that campaigning and holding office are 2 completely different things.

The morons screaming "war criminal" just have to add him to their list.

As for the innocent people killed, we should care about killing innocent people as much as these wonderful muslim countries do, and that obviously isnt much.

The libs are jumping on this story, for sure...

WHO CARES? - nobody (other than the dhimmi)

Considering that the Taliban / Alquaida are some of the most vicious killers in the world, as seen by their terrorist attacks around the world for the last 20 years, and that they are not likely to have non-followers / believers around them , anybody who happens to get killed by close proximity to a high value target is bound to be a supporter / follower. It's not rocket science folks.

I think it's interesting that the libs got REALLY quiet after Obama ramped up Bush/Cheneys efforts in the ME, kept, Gitmo open, and re affirmed the Patriot act. Hope and Change is looking good, eh? Ever stop to think that the President might know something you libs don't?

If the libs know everything about everything (and they are sure to make that clear) then the President being the TOP lib must know more than the rest of them, right? It just drives the sub-libs into a tizzy!

OK, here's my usual question for you libs who love peace so much: describe your methodology for stopping the Axis (that's the Nazis and the Japanese, BTW...)from taking over the world during WWII without using the tactics you so abhor (to wit: bombing, killing, burning, nuking them).

Nobody ever answers this question. I know you gotta go when your mom is calling, but here's your chance to shine!

There is a clarification that was made after the original article was posted (now see above). The reporter jump on the story with a headline before getting all the facts:

Clarification: An earlier version of this story said that President Obama "personally authorized the broadening of the term 'civilian'" and attributed the redefining of "civilian" to his administration. However, The Bureau of Investigative Journalism now understands that the Obama administration instead embraced a pre-existing policy introduced under President George W. Bush. The Bureau apologizes for this error.

I am a person who embraces peaceful means of problem solving, and the loss of innocent lives is beyond troubling. However, the environment of radicalism and the willingness to export violence cannot be ignored. Pakistan clearly protected OBL, and like most of the Middle East, will continue to be a haven for very dangerous people. Am I torn? Most definitely. Would I rather there be all out war in these countries with more troops on the ground? NO. We already know the fallout from that track. Regardless of what any posters may say, this is not a political issue - it is a calculated attempt to reduce deaths while taking out the bad guys, effectively. I wish I had a better answer. But here's the reality: there's a limited number of tools in Obama's tool kit (this would be so no matter who is the POTUS). So which do we choose? War or ignore? Life isn't always tidy.

I'm hoping that everyone will take not of how the attitudes about collateral damage change with the party affiliation of the sitting president. This is NOT how people should be thinking. It's not about supporting a party no matter what they do or how they behave. It's about having some personal standards based on common sense and then having a little integrity!

We don't live in the 20's or 40's or 60's. This is the new mellinia with a world population of several billion and growing. There are a lot of mouths and minds to feed that need healthy food that will nurture healthy bodies and minds. Things are only going to continue to change so isolationism of countries and individuals is no longer an option. Change will be our friend or our enemy but it will not be going anywhere.

I cannot get over how poorly written some of these stories are:

How do you spell "AUTHORIZE"? Apparently it is done so like: Authorise

Chris Woods and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism are based in London. The copy that comes out of the Bureau would obviously use international spellings and grammar.

It's important to remember that MSNBC is a cable news station, not a print publication. A huge amount of effort and a lot of money goes into producing television programming. That means most of the articles you read on here are actually wire copy. Otherwise, they would have to divert resources to produce the website.

Expecting wire copy to be without error (even if this article is without error), seems naive to anyone who has worked for a newspaper or television station.

How can a "Kill List" be secret if people are writing about it? I'm so bothered by these types of stories, yes this one came closer to naming sources something besides "anonymous," but then admitted much of this came from Wikileaks - now just how reliable is THAT??? Assange clearly has an axe to grind against America; who's to say he didn't just make half of that stuff up?

Israel has been using "targeted assassination" missle strikes for years, no big surprise that we'd try it as well. You'll NEVER have a war with no civilian casualties, seems a "targeted missle strike" would at least limit the number. It's not like Assad sending in his goons to shoot people in their homes on the off-chance that some of them are rebels. I have no problem with the way that American terrorist traitor was killed, he deserved it. Sorry if any innocents were killed in the process, but what are we supposed to do, let this guy kill more Americans from a distance just because we're afraid of casualties? Limit the civilian deaths as much as possible, that's what it sounds like Obama is trying to do - and believe me, I am NO FAN of Obama!

BILL

Nixon's list was not a kill list. It was just a list of persons whom he believed were a "threat" to himself and his presidency. Most were outspoken celebrities, such as Jane Fonda and Paul Newman. But there were other unknown people who did not like him who were on the list. Obama takes his "threat list" a lot further. Heaven help the innocent who happens to be in the proximity of one of his targets. He will twist due process and "combatant" to what ever he needs to justify his desires. It's a very slippery slope when President's do this.

Dogma bites - you are correct. Currently the world in on ideology mode. Our scraps are over belief systems (and greed induced conflicts). The population issue has to be addressed because the next wars will be over resources - like water, not oil. Living sustainability is a necessity as well. Please note: I hate war and I rarely use the term "hate". I've racked my brain over this and have had little success in thinking of viable solutions. And I've had to do battle with my conscious over where my heart is at. I believe we're all in the same nest (thus my sign name). Perhaps I need to keep the reevaluation process going, or return to gentler subjects. Last night I had a lovely walk to the sound of cicadas. My heart felt happier. Right now, it just feels heavy.

H8Party was obviously too young to remember the left doing the same thing to Bush. His selectivity is astounding...fits your agenda nicely though.

These are no innocent victims; they would slit our throats if we so much as look the other way. We should encourage the Russians to take revenge on these, corn-holing race of collective despots all the way into Pakistan. We killed thousands upon thousands of Nazi and Kokuhonsha civilians, and we are now worrying ourselves silly over doing away with this bubonic plague of savages just because they look human? We must never, ever again fall victim to moral and emotional blackmail, for next time we may not live to regret our follies.

We need to develop drones that can use a laser instead of a missile. This way the intended bad guy gets it without killing everyone around him.

"Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent."

American citizen: Innocent until proven guilty.
Possible foreign combatant: Guilty until proven innocent.

No wonder they hate us.

How many Iraqi civilians died by doing things Bush's way? More than 100,000 by most estimates. Civilian casualties from drone attacks are regrettable, but this is a far more humane way of eliminating dangerous enemies. Numbers do matter, and we should do our best to make the number of civilian deaths as close to zero as possible.

I don't envy the job of POTUS. Interestingly enough, time after time, Obama ends up adopting Bush policies because they leave the POTUS free to act. The question of course becomes the character of the POTUS and how he acts.

Of course those on the right cry "Hitler" or "Terrorist" When just a few days earlier they would have said he was a "weak" POTUS, or that he really is a secret muslim. Baloney. Finding a needle in a haystack, when the haystack surrounds itself with civilians isn't an easy job. I don't think Obama is a terrorist, muslim, or Hitler. He's trying to get us out of that war in a reasonable timely fashion. The delusion is that war is a clean push button affair that only hits targets you want hit. Again, not an easy job.

As for Bush, I don't think he was as "evil" as some poster's say he was. But I do think he lacked the character to reign in his vp, or to stand up to the cadre or war mongers and profiteers who encouraged him into these wars. And he seemed more interested in finding information to justify his actions, rather than examining the information that was given to him. Finally, I think it's sad that a POTUS allowed himself to get duped into bankrupting our nation by a terrorist.

Yep, as unhappy as one might be about civilian casualties, there are gonna be some. But I'd rather it be the president getting us out of war, than one who is getting us into war. And at least one who "aggressively" questions the tactics and information that got those civilians killed.

I wonder if this might have something to do with Pakistan being a schizophrenic 'ally.' If you come into the US, and kill a terrorist and also kill a few innocent bystanders near him, am I going to think you did a wonderful job?

I have a feeling the Pakistanis put a greater weight on Pakistani civilian deaths than President Obama.

If this was Bush, this would be all over the media for the next week, and they'd be calling for his head! Obama gets away with a slap on the wrist and a quiet pat on the back...

doulous63: One only needs to read the fine print to realize President Obama is NOT getting us out of war. We will be in Afghastan for many years to come. These so called "kill lists" should be a concern for every American. War sucks.

I'm on record as being ambivalent about President Obama, however, there are a few points we would do well to consider on this subject. First of all, a Muslim male infant wouldn't be considered a terrorist. More importantly, while I abhor civilian deaths and think it is probable that every time you kill civilians, you just created some new terrorists, it is obvious that :

1) The Taliban and AQ will absolutely kill civilians as well and it's not as if these were happy, well fed civilians enjoying a high quality life.

2) They know first hand that these guys are nasty deplorable killers and that by allowing them to live in their midst, they make themselves a target.

The civilians themselves know what these guys are and if you allow yourself to be ruled by a gang of thugs, this occurs and you will pay a price, as did the civilian populations of Germany and Japan in 1945. It is regrettable but justified. If they took care of these thugs themselves, they would have to worry about drones.

The only realistic alternatives to drone attacks are to either just hope the bad guys go away or send in troops. I think either of those choices would be worse. As to killing a US citizen overseas without due process, I don't see how this was any different from shooting a fleeing felon who refuses to surrender. He could have had due process, but chose not to have it.

It has troubled me all along that I don't see near as much difference between Obama and Bush as I wanted. I think bush was the perfect combination of evil and stupid . Obama is very smart and, I believe, well intentioned. So it's troubling indeed that he has failed to reverse many bush policies.

Dan Z-1982

World war 2 rings to mind. To Japanese cities gone, but it ended the war with them. If i have to kill some civilians because you started the war, to damn bad.

Yeah, the old Truman rhetoric. Live-saving nukes. First of all, at the time they were dropped, no one anticipated the outcome, it was the first time the A-bomb was used on human beings. So, if nukes save so many lives, why don't we do it more often? This is a case of justifying war crimes after the fact, just like they justify killing innocents with their drones. Luckily, the winners can use any excuse and get away with causing mayhem.

Let's see...World War II, thousands killed in nighttime carpet bombing over Germany to put manufacturing plants out of business to shorten the war, thousands killed in "pinpoint" raids over Romania to put Axis-used oil refineries out of business to starve the German war machine, thousands of merchant marine sailors on both sides killed to prevent desparately needed war materiel from reaching both Germany and Great Britain...

Lives lost in small raids to eliminate possible terrotists.

I hate to rain on your parade, all you bleeding heart liberals, but WAR KILLS and is no respector of status. Military: enlisted or officer; civilian: warmonger or worker. WAR KILLS and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

Yes, I deplore the loss of any God-created life, but it happens. In Viet Nam the choice was kill on sight or possibly be blown to shreds by an eight-year-old carrying hand grenades. I am not debating the rightness or wrongness of the war, just that people were killed on both sides, so don't even start that thread of discussion.

If you can't handle what happens in the war on terror, stop reading these articles about the war. But, please, please, welcome our fighters back home (those that come back) and don't start spitting on them al la Viet Nam era.

No one is dissing the vets, at least, I am not. They were just following orders, and their best intentions. It's the CIC's at the time that skew the definition of 'righteousness'.

Normally I would be very opposed to the video game atmosphere of our drone program. Just too damn easy to pull the trigger and then go home and have dinner. However, it is hard to argue the success of the two things that has Al Quada and their associates crapping their pants; drone strikes and snipers.

Give me the choice of sending in troops and equipment to root these A holes out at great loss of life to our soldiers or threading a needle into the middle of a group plotting another attack, I accept the remote control.

Though it would have undoubtedly resulted in civilian deaths, we should have done this to Saddam and we would have saved a trillion dollars and thousands of lives. So we either have tens of thousands of civilians die when we invade and occupy a country, or we have some civilians die when we take out the key people that need to be removed. Would that there was a third choice, but none comes to mind.

DOGMA BITES -

Whenever I come across your posts, I read them. What you state matters. You generally provide a perspective that makes me think beyond what is already floating around in my head. But what I can't get out of my head now, is this following line:

It's about having some personal standards based on common sense and then having a little integrity!

I fancy myself a peacemaker when it comes to human interactions (although it's rough when posting on hot topics on the vine). Sometimes I let my humor rip, but mostly I'm in a logical mode. Right now, logic doesn't really fit. My heart tells me I can't support peace and support launching drones - it's one or the other. And I guess if I have to choose between a logical tactical response and holding on to my standards with integrity, in the end, I can't condone the use of drones when innocent people are killed. I just don't want our guys going back out again - our vets are suffering so much. This is hard. . .

If they are shielding, aiding and supporting America's enemies, then they may be civilians be they are not innocent. One of the issues we dealt with in Viet Nam was the enemies' use of sanctuaries. Through drone strikes we are denying this to Al-Quida and the Taliban. If these enemies use willing civilians as shield and shelter then they become targets themselves - if they choose to allow their families to cloak the enemy then they are placing their families at risk.

FYI - much has been made of inflated body counts during the Viet Nam war. These "inflated" accounts generally place VC/NVA KIA at around 500,000. Recently NVA General Vo Nguyen Giap's memoirs revealed that communist combat deaths were actually twice that.

ULDog -

I see your point. But I guess I'm going to have to take myself out of this topic altogether. I can't reach any peace with it. The logic vs. heart thing can be frustrating.

Sotired,

ok we didn't use nukes in world war 2. Which country would you like to be your occupier, Germany, Italy, or Japan. And these arn't the Germany, Italy and Japan of modern times remember. You have Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo. Please chose.

"The Bureau of Investigative Journalism now understands that the Obama administration instead embraced a pre-existing policy introduced under President George W. Bush."

Isn't it amazing how many of Bush's policies have been adopted? Maybe Bush was pretty smart after all.

By the way - Is Obama also a 'war criminal' because of civilian deaths?

lol

sotired-1320831 "...an infant Muslim is a 'known terrorist'?"

I have a hard time picturing an infant as a 'military age man' using the definition provided.

Can you help me out with that.

Here's a better definition of a 'civilian death'. Unless a United Nations inspection of the remains by an impartial party (a) verifies that a person actually died, and that they were an innocent bystander, they should be considered 'enemy combatants'.

Then we can claim that we have killed NO civilians in our drone attacks - ever.

It's simple when you get to define the terms.

(a) - I wonder who would volunteer to have their head cut off - slowly?

Why even bother with definitions. They are being 'adjusted' to corroborate the killings of innocent people, after the fact.

JRS-619990 "I think one scary thing out of this whole discussion is that some of the terrorists that the drones took out on the "kill list" were US citizens so that as citizens, they were denied due process of the law"

Unless you can figure a way to go over there and arrest them and bring them back here for trial, we have two options;

1 - Let them continue to attack American interests with impunity, or
2 - Kill them.

Which would you prefer?

By the way - Just because they are American citizens doesn't automatically make them 'civilians. Technically, since they are 'out of uniform' and attacking American interests in a time of war, they are subject to being executed as spies.

livinginthewoods " The best weapon against indoctrination and ignorance? Education!"

Which is why the first thing that the Taliban in Afghanistan did was close schools and forbid any girls from getting an education. They also required that all boys be indoctrinated in radical Islam.

Yup, the right 'education' solves the problem.

Shared Nest "I am a person who embraces peaceful means of problem solving, and the loss of innocent lives is beyond troubling."

I think most people would agree with you, but I often wonder how they might have felt about the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany in WW2 wherein about 25,000 innocent 'civilians' died, or the Atomic bombs dropped on Japan that killed over 100,000 'civilians'.

As William Tecumseh Sherman once remarked "War is Hell".

Roy Wilson, you have said it yourself. When you get to define the terms, things become easy. Just make every woman, child, civilian in close vicinity to the suspected (!) terrorists an enemy combatant, because they either aid, shield, harbor, or defend the ones around them. Bingo. Take them out...

I am uncomfortable with the President embracing the confiscation of powers (although haven't heard how Obama stacks up with the business of rewriting laws when he signs them, something the Bush admin became champions at) developed by previous admin, and the labeling of all military age males in a strike zone as combatants is reprehensible. I am relieved to hear that Obama does not take these things lightly and that there are dissenters. I do think the drone thing is just far, far too tempting to restrain easily. I also think long-term consequences are a serious concern albeit unpredictable. I do think it is easier to deal with those consequences when you have less of a hand in making them. (Like how the Iranians in 1979 surely had every reason to think the US would repeat what it did in the 1950's and stick them again with a dictator they thought they'd just gotten rid of).

ItsAboutTime-3704531,

You either support the US Constitution or you do not...

NO POTUS has the option to only obey the sections that are convenient...

My oh my....Obama is doing exactly what the Demon-crats and him bitched about Bush doing...another example of Liberal Hypocracy at its best!

Al you right wingers who once were against Obama for not doing enough to get at terrorists now switch (as usual) over a story yet unproved in of ll things the NYT that you also claim is a left wing newspaper. O course there will be civilian casualties in the war on terror. Prove the people affcted or killed in these raid were not ALQeda sympathizers or you are not actual AlQueda plants in here to down Obama as he has kept his foot up your behind for the last few years. Nex all you puritans who embraced what the Neocons did in Iraq explain the over 200K Civilian deaths there from our bombings. Thin WWII Dressden Germany we carpet bombed and flattened an entire city practically. Hiroshimea 80,000 instant deaths plus another 80,000 died soon after. Nagasaki 75,000 instant and another 75,000 in the next few day. War is hell and the people who win wars know when they get into them that you cannot dodge civilian deaths. Wimps who claim to be macho like the neocons are actually sheep in lions clothing who only have the big lie on their side not reality. I salute the president. Keep up the good work keep the pressure on and keep them looking over their shoulder.

to me this is interesting... kind of like the new definition of Humanitarian Aide...lol.

if you want to know who is considered as a enemy combatant of the states of the US, dont be shy....look it up! lol jk jk... but do look it up.

i see there are a few people who have the right idea tho. there have been a lot of changes, that kind of affect us in some very, very, important ways. the biggest part of it is, it doesnt take much for the president to declare a state of "martial law", when the entire nation sits in the gutter. if you dont know what happens next, maybe you should look it up?

thing is i see a lot of people who like to jump on fences, and please i mean no offence when i have to say naive, mis informed, or part of the propaganda machine... back in the day those of us who personally knew and spoke to someone who lived thru the last major recession, they were more god fearing, and respectful of the government. they didnt feel "entitled", as most of us, and all our children have been taught. We have seen it happen in Europe... and the squeeze is getting harder. i am petrified to see how many homless communites there are... you can blame the internet all you want when it comes to more crime only being the relation to better news all you want. crime is way up, and has been downplayed in reports to crime and statistics. prisons are so over crowded now we cant afford to pay for them.

look and see for yourself if you want to know if our government officials have been on the take when it comes to wall street... they ARE wall street, lol. may the POTUS has his fingers in a few shares? look it up! :)

dondraper those drones are already flying over the good old US of A. According to Homland Insecurity they are to watch the Mexican border. They leave everyday from either the Kingsville NAS or CCNAS and fly along the coast of Texas to just above Brownsville turn west and follow the Rio Grande NW. But at the height they fly they see a lot more than the water in the river. Hope I'm not on his enemies list.

Its amazing. In this day and age, everyone thinks that "surgical strikes" means 0 collateral damage/civilian casualties. And yet:

1) These cowards hide behind human shields, its THEIR fault innocent people are dieing for THEIR deeds

2) These cowards pretend to BE civilians so they can move about unhindered and/or blame the US for killing "civilians"

Yes, even the women, children and mentally handicapped have been found with bombs strapped to their chests. These cowards are willing to use anyone and anything to achieve their heinous goal: the murder or enslavement of all non-Muslims (so says the Koran!).

If this was 60-70 years ago, people on BOTH sides of the war would be cheering at the low non-military casualties!! And let's not also forget how WILLINGLY they THEMSELVES will sacrifice civilians OR the fact that they view ALL non-Muslims as the Enemy- "civilians" are merely enemies who are fighting indirectly and deserve to be beheaded with a rusty spoon.

Guess Americans better watch what they say or we will be put on the Obama kill lists. The United States, it's just like living in a third world country anymore.

Kind of like life under former President Bush.

the very first covert drone strikes of the Obama presidency, just three days after he took office,

What better way to demonstrate that he deserved that noble peace prize!

The United States, it's just like living in a third world country anymore.

Well, it definitely seems to be headed further in that direction everyday. But, Obama doesn't have any more or less to do with it than any other member of government, past or present.

Our economic situation is the culmination of years of public mismanagement and private deregulation by BOTH political parties.

But, Obama doesn't have any more or less to do with it than any other member of government, past or present.

That's quite a way to look at it - he has done nothing to fulfill his promises of HOPE and CHANGE.

Our economic situation is the culmination of years of public mismanagement...

And so it is acceptable for him to continue the cycle?

I will never understand the right wing thinking. You don't mind a president appointed by the supreme court arthorizing a war where the military goes in and bombs the entire nation and kill many civilians. It makes our the nation look good. BUT when a President ELECTED by the people chooses with the advise of the military to select to kill just the people responsible for the deaths of 3 thousand of our citizens is not the right thing to do.. As Colon Powell said THINK. What else will you Republcans blame on this President ??? If the sun doesn't shine on the day you want it to it will be his fault. Read all the names written by H8TPARTY of the al Qaeda operatives that are no longer around to arrange for the KILLING of Americans you'd rather for thousand of women and children to have been killed along with them.

tangent2, President Bush DID do things like this. Do you not know that or are you choosing to ignore it? I don't have a problem with this President or the previous one doing what is necessary to conduct a war.

Pres. Bush never ordered the killing of U.S. Citizens.

If you have no problem with US citizens being murdered without trial or due process ( No matter how evil they may be ) than there is something wrong with U.

Again, tangent2, you are either ignorant or a liar. The Bush Administration ordered the killing of American born Al Qaeda terrorist Anwar al-Aulaqi only he didn't kill him before he left office. This administration did. Facts are stubborn things.

tangeant2

Why is it that you and so many righties have your head in the sand like an ostrich. Former President Bush (and probably every president before him) has done the very same thing. I am in quite certain that other countries around the world have this same kind of policy as well. The French (example) would shoot down a civilian airliner if it was hijacked by terrorists and aimed at something in Paris.

a president appointed by the supreme court

And the left wing will continue to believe that the supreme court gave bush the election. Do some research - it was the Florida courts that ruled bush the winner. The U.S. supreme court pushed it back to the FL court.

Tangent,

So, what do you think would have been a better option? Losing more American lives going in to pull him out alive for trial? Or, letting him continue to wage a war against us(his own country) in hiding.

I can understand the viewpoint of those who hate us, because the US and UK have pissed all over that part of the world since before any of us were alive but, this @!$%#(awlaki) was one of us and he chose to become a religious whackjob and a @!$%#ing traitor. It was our responsibility to take him out. He openly stated his agenda. Do you think any of us, as his peers had any reasonable doubt that he was an enemy and a criminal?

So, typical that the neocons loved W for being such a cowboy but, hate Obama for actually walking the walk that Bush tried to talk. I live in a rural area and I have noticed that most rednecks don't like black cowboys.

Thinker,

Who was governor in FL at the time?

Obama the war criminal!!!

Lol!!!

That is priceless

Tangeant2, a majority of the media leans left. If you have a problem with that, you may watch Fox News. Furthermore, we, the "leftist nutters" disapprove of civilian casualties just as much as you do. If Bush were still the president, the right would be justifying it by saying "it is a part of war". And they would be right, unfortunately. We are not naive, and we understand the consequences of war. Thus, liberals are less inclined to go to war in the first place, while the conservatives wave their war banners proudly.

Damn, Kenobi. I wish I had said that! You are spot on.

living... - It doesn't matter who the governor was. Bush filed a court case to be heard regarding the method of vote counting. Gore didn't want a case and appealed straight to the FL Supreme Court that ruled in Gore's favour. Based on that Bush went to the U.S. Supreme Court which unamamously overturned the FL Supreme Court and sent it back to FL circuit court. The case was heard and the judge ruled in favour of Bush on all counts Gore went straight back to the FL Supreme Court and they again ruled in favor of Gore without hearing the case. Bush took it back to the US Supreme Court and they again ruled that Bush was correct (7-2). The partisan 5-4 vote that everybody was up in arms about wasn't on the merits of the case but on what to do with the case. The justices ruled 5-4 that since the FL Supreme Court srewed it up twice they weren't going to give them a third go. They kept the case and made their ruling final.

This never was a matter for the executive branch (governor) but for the judicial branch (courts).

demjo that president wasn't flying drones over my head everyday. Kenobi do you also justify calling 9 old retired farts in a florida restaurant a hate group because they don't believe in paying taxes. Who knows what will get you listed as a hate group or on his enemies list this is worse than Nixon. I was probably on his list to.

I've always suspected I'm a lesbian born in a man's body... think I'd just claim it to escape Obama's kill list.

It is outrageous. You are a terrorist if you are over 13 and less than 80.

You AREN'T a terrorist if you have political pull.

Strong word is that the terrorist group MEK is coming off the official list of terrorist groups very soon because of their successful lobbying efforts in Washington.

By the way. If you are male, older than 13 and less than 80 and NOT DEAD you are still a civilian.
You only become a terrorist once you are dead (unless you fit some other Washington defined criteria).

AC,, great post

BUT, those numbers ARE way off, better estimate is 3 TIMES those figures

Pres. Obama's drone teams ( in North Carolina ) have launched drone strikes alomost every week for all 3 years.

Don't get me wrong, DRONES are better than ground forces.....

GO Pres. Obama, The KILLING MACHINE - LOL with a Nobel PEACE Prize

Defend America Forever,

"Don't get me wrong, DRONES are better than ground forces..."

You are correct, if they are operated by the US Military in a conflict area. Unless you are the US Marine and Medic that were killed. Even when the people on the ground were indicating the wrong area was being targeted, and the person observing the operation was questioning the target. The drone operator fired anyway...

IMO - There has to be ACCOUNTABILITY, the same as when the ground forces OVER-REACT or kill indiscriminately. These operations by the CIA are ILLEGAL, until there is ACCOUNTABILITY, and the people that authorized their use/procedures should be held accountable...

Since Obama openly has kill lists it won't be long before he starts rounding up American citizens.

Jertow, If you think that is going to happen just move to one of the countries you are defending.

demjo it may be safer. You want to come here where the drones fly daily over our country.

don_draper:

If there were one terrorist group living in your neighborhood, let's carpet bomb your entire neighborhood to ensure we kill each and everyone of them. If your body, family, children and home happens to be within range, it is just too bad.

"I fail to see problem with this strategy (sic). Presembly it was an al Qaeda terror training camp, so why not kill them all?"

If you can't tell the difference between your neighborhood and Somalia then I suggest you move to a blue state.

Blue states have higher rates of violent crime. Might want to stay in the red state.

There is a difference between a terrorist training camp where, by definition everybody there supports terrorism and is training to commit acts of terrorism and a neighborhood with a single terrorist. Obama has a lot of faults to be sure, but his policy with drones isn't one of them.

Hmmm... what in the world do you people think a "training camp" is, someplace to toilet train 5-year-olds?

Well don't move to Texas the drones already fly here. Once a day at least over my county coutesy of homeland insecurity.

Osamabama,

You're wrong: "The average violent crime rate (murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault) in 2008 for the 28 states that voted for Barack Obama in the 2008 Presidential election was 389 incidents per 100,000 residents. The average violent crime rate for the 22 states that voted for John McCain was 412 incidents per 100,000 residents - or a 5.8 percent higher incidence of violent crime. . . . .[A] Smart Politics analysis of partisan control of state legislatures finds the 27 states with Democratic-controlled legislatures with an average violent crime rate of 390 incidents per 100,000 residents. The average violent crime rate for the 14 states with Republican-controlled legislatures was 11.1 percent higher, at 433 incidents per 100,000 residents. (The rate was lowest among eight states with split partisan control - at 382). http://blog.lib.umn.edu/cspg/smartpolitics/2009/09/red_states_have_higher_crime_r.php

"

Factually inaccurate throughout and a stupid cliche at the end. Good job FatCat.

Where are the screaming liberal comments about obama being a war criminal??

crickets chriping

I will assume you are a conservative. So, in essence, you are observing situational ethics as well - it is OK for a Republican president to have killed civilians under his term, but not a Democratic president. Not saying it is right, just pointing it out.

Your assumptions are interesting... you have no knowledge of me or my views but for this comment. You don't know how long ago I decried situational ethics (Just FYI it was back in the early '80's). I was responding to the redefining of "civilian" in the article. Did LBJ redefine "civilians" during the Vietnam conflict? And yet he carpet bombed Hanoi and Cambodia.

I was not happy with opening up trade with China, I was not happy with IRAN/Contra. I was not happy with Kosovo or Somalia nor fact that Osama Bin Laden was allowed free reign for as long as he was. But the current "redefinitions" are just the latest escalation of the governments attempts to justify themselves. Wrong is wrong, not grey. Nor red or blue.

My oh my....Obama is doing exactly what the Demon-crats and him bitched about Bush doing...another example of Liberal Hypocracy at its best!

Agewithout wisom - my assumptions were due to the tone of your writing and the comment "seems as though Harvard has taught it well" which I read as a patronizing remark. I have gained further evidence of your political leaning based on your black and white world view. Generally speaking, this is a more conservative concept. However, I apologize if I have wrongly categorized you as something you are not.

I happen to disagree with you about the world being black and white and something being entirely right or entirely wrong. I see the world as shades of grey. However, this is not extremely relevant, because it does not preclude me from also being saddened and sickened by the loss of innocent human life. As I have commented above, we all know what war is and what it entails. Unfortunately, innocents die in war. It is one of the many reasons why war is so horrible. Liberals are generally less inclined to go to war in the first place, whereas conservatives are generally more likely to go to war if they perceive their ideals being threatened.

Furthermore, I do not completely agree with your disdain of so-called "situational ethics". Perhaps we have differing definitions. I define situational ethics as the evaluation of a situation containing many variables and deciding the best course of action by which the greater amount of good can be achieved with the least amount of negative side-effects for all parties involved in said situation. In my opinion, one size does not fit all, and one preordained decision cannot account for the many variables in any given situation. Many presidents have had high value target lists (or kill lists as some are calling it). Obama largely continued the one set by Bush. Likewise, they both had advisers guiding their decisions. These people have more military training and are more aware of what occurs "in the field". Being a civilian himself, think the president would be concerned about preventing collateral damage as much as possible, and would weigh the advice of his trained advisers heavily in order to do so.

Mosin - Your spin on the word Democrat makes people take you less seriously and makes those who disagree with your position see you as less intelligent and close-minded. I would suggest not using it in the future. Additionally, it is known that both parties are more than guilty of hypocrisy; you have added nothing to this discussion.

Kenobi start right there collateral damage is not the wrong building falling down it is the killing of the wrong people. What I hate most about our world is we don't tell it like it is. If you find something incovienent change the definition or use a different word. That way killing and murder aren't killing and murder. And people become something less than human. Just like the Nazis defined certain people as less than human. Just like slaveowners defined blacks as less than human. Iwould have a great deal more respect for our government if they came out and said we kill people. We want you to pay to kill babies not rename them as fetuses so you can kill without compunction.

The problem isn't so much collateral damage, but rather the attempt to justify it. In the wars you describe the technologies were much less capable of discrimination and so the collateral damage, as you put it, was unavoidable. With drones it is a much different story.

The other concern , as stated above, is Holder's decission to redefine "due process" of an American citezin abroad.

Again, situational ethics at it's best.

Agewithout wisdom - The unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) MQ-1 Predator launches AGM-114 Hellfire missiles with 110lb high explosive warheads. The effective lethality zone is roughly 40 m or about 130 ft. That is nearly half a football field. Add on to that flying debris. So, yes, we have improved missile guidance systems significantly, but explosion physics has not changed.

No we signed a treaty that says we won't do that.

Orwell - 1984 - Newspeak

Almost makes you think he could see into the future, he just got the year wrong.

He knows of the requirement...Obama just chooses to ignore it or rationalize it away.

After all the Constitution is only a outdated piece of paper to a " Progressive " .....

greg berry

According to the US Constitution, American Citizens have the god given RIGHTS to a TRIAL, and must be convicted before punishment. OBAMA has no clue of that requirement. CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER MY ASS

Where in the United States Constitution does it say "American Citizens have the GOD given RIGHTS ...". God is not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution. If you actually READ the consitution, you would see that there IS NOTHING specifically mentioned about the RIGHTS to a Trial. However, Amendment #5:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

If an American born terrorists decides to strike a target here in the US, let's follow your approach.
"STOP! You can't do that until we have proven you are an American, then proceed with your target, and we'll then ensure your rights (Amendment #5)are upheld.

President Obama is no different than any other before him in this area. Its just whining/complaining from individuals who don't like the President and have their head in the sand.

Where in the United States Constitution does it say "American Citizens have the GOD given RIGHTS ...".

you're right, it does not say it there

God is not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution.

Correct again.

You would have to read the Declaration of Independence to find the mentioning of a "Creator" The god, or deity, meaning of the word is indisputable.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator

Since an imaginary friend, or a sky fairy, granted these rights, man my not rescind them.

with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Agree w/your comments. However, our laws are not based on the Declaration, they are based on the US Constitution. The founding fathers did not establish christianity as the relgion of the United States.

Thank you for the post.

However, our laws are not based on the Declaration

Prove to me, that the Constitution and all following laws, are nor based on the founding principles of American rights and obligations found in the Declaration of Independence. Just what do they teach in schools today? where are you getting this strange theory from ?.

The founding fathers did not establish christianity as the relgion of the United States

Was that "straw man" necessary?

Do you see anybody claiming it was?

Prove to me, that the Constitution and all following laws, are nor based on the founding principles of American rights and obligations found in the Declaration of Independence. Just what do they teach in schools today? where are you getting this strange theory from ?.

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/doi.htm

the Declaration of Independence is not a legal document for this nation. What this means is that it has no authority over our laws, our lawmakers, or ourselves. It cannot be cited as precedent or as being binding in a courtroom. The purpose of the Declaration of Independence was to make a moral case for dissolving the legal ties between the colonies and Great Britain; once that goal was achieved, the official role of the Declaration was finished.

This is one example in which the Declaration is not a legal document for the laws of the United States. I am a Christian, but I refuse to believe that god is the one who granted me my rights.

I do recognize and agree with the US Supreme Court (http://candst.tripod.com/doisussc.htm) that the declaration is the 'seed' of our laws and is part of the basis for "Organic/Natural" laws of the United States. So I can understand your position on why the declaration is 'law'.

To me, Amendment #1 is very clear about the role of religion in the United States. This amendment effectively (my opinion) negates any christian (or any other organized religions for that matter) claim that 'Creator" is god and that god is part of our secular laws.

Just because Johnny jumps off the bridge doesn't mean it's OK for you to do it also.

There are other methods to accomplish this without wholesale carnage. They may be more expensive but there are other ways.

There are other methods to accomplish this without wholesale carnage. They may be more expensive but there are other ways.

So Obama is a war criminal??

I call bull$hit.

Greg, you know you're an idiot right? Please tell me you've been told before?

OBAMA 2012 / DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS 2012

DOWN WITH THE AMERICAN TALIBAN PARTY!!!!

Afghanistan did not have an army, so the citizens of Afghanistan are fighting the occupiers of their country. Karzai is a puppet and the so called Afghan Army are the mercenaries, both created and bankrolled by the U.S. tax payers.

It's the delusion, not realism, that hurts.

Well said, Jonjojon. Furthermore, I've read several comments from other posters stating that some of the "known terrorists" on the list were U.S. citizens and were killed without due process or a trial. I'm sorry, but if you run off and join the enemy then you are just that: the enemy! They gave up their right to a fair trial the moment they decided to help the cave-dwelling nutjobs in planning attacks agains the U.S.A.

They got what they deserved! And if anybody else feels that this Country isn't good enough, they should run off to cave themselves and wait to be taken out by a cruise missle too!

stwnow, the delusion is that you believe you are posting this instead of the reality that you are speaking the words of propaganda based in hatred for either the USA or The Afghan Government.

My oh my....Obama is doing exactly what the Demon-crats and him bitched about Bush doing...another example of Liberal Hypocracy at its best!

MOreSIN Exactly what the Republican Congress bent on only one thing from the beginning (sink Obama) is offering America (Note: NOT Amercia).

The RED Party's tongue is as twisted as their Presumed Candidate's Supporters' Spelling.

Anything to make Obama look bad and cover the fact that their pick of the 7 Comedian multi-debates has nothing to offer anyone in America other than their Wealthy Cronies and Oily Friends.

greg berry

Obama has KILL LISTS, and he most likley has Political Kill lists, Business Kill lists, Heck, We can't even get him to TURN OVER the WH VISITORS LIST! The only thing transparent that has come from this administration is his CORRUPTION. Its in every one of Obamas agencies, and at ever level of his advisors. But don't worry folks, THE DOJ, "Eric the HOLDER of the truth is on the CASE"!

Really? You honestly think he has Political and Business Kill Lists? Justify this please. Are you in the CIA or have some secret access to the President that we don't. As for the rest of your comment, completely dismissed. More whining and complaining without any justifiable facts what so ever. Get your head out of the sand and realize there is just as much corruption from every previous administration and congressional session prior to President Obama. Of course, those don't matter because this is Obama right.......

What about the GOP Congressional Debate Kill List?

How about their kill any chances that Obama might succeed Kill List?

It seems all the Repubelickins have offered are negativity and Wealth-Sided motions. Even when they have to sign on to an idea they find a way to twist it to their avarice (oops advantage).

Correct me if I am wrong....

Isn't the 'Paki' doctor considered a patriot in this country?

It appears that the whole country is suffering from a bipolar disorder.

Ok, a Patriot... the person that leaked the info about his involvement should be hunted down and brought up on charges. In the worst case senerio... What if these stellar reporters were to tell these poor people on the Kill List that they were in danger. Again, why isn't thier any investigation into the leaking of this info ???

That was Eisenhower that made the comment.

FANTASTIC IDEA. Robert was on his 3rd tour? I don't know what happened there, but I think that's a good idea. Maybe he just needs a Harvard Lawyer.