I don't believe we should listen to, worry about, or trust Pakistan in any way, shape or form. They are not our allies in the fight against terrorism and nothing could be clearer to me. They talk a decent game at certain levels when the precise situation suits them, and then they let us down when it counts, every single time. Enough is enough. I would advocate seizing and/or neutralizing their nuclear capability at the very first opportunity, then we and the rest of the civilized world won't have to worry about them much at all. That may sound harsh, but it's just the way it is, IMO.

I was going to say that it seems Pakistan is being used as a testing and training area. I will leave it to readers to figure out the "training for what" part, and what the next implementation(s) may be. At some point, Russia or China is going to tell Pakistan how to assume control of these drones and it'll be Bush's fault at that point.

These drone strikes are a feather in Obama's cap. It's one of the (few) things that I agree with the White House on. Keep 'em flying, sir.

The CIA drone campaign fuels anti-U.S. sentiment in Pakistan and is counterproductive because of collateral damage, Pakistani officials say.

Translation: stop killing our ace in the hole when Afghanistan crumbles again.

Stexan: please read the news. The current news. Bush has been out for 3.5+years now. Current orderer-of-drone-strikes is Obama.

The US doesn't know who it's killing. No names, no attempts to ID, and the civilian toll is of no cosequence to the cowardly American targeters. Execution by whim of the king is a throwback to the Dark Ages or likened unto a vicious dictatorship..

Good points, Aquatone.

Well douie, look at the number of virgins saved. As these command meetings spontaneously explode there can't be any plans made for the next civilian market slaughter in Kabul. Kind of a win-win.

Dou44 - I agree with you, thanks for yr support. OBL Jr.

How many innocent civilians have died over the years because of drone strikes on the "militants" next to them?

US Predator missile strike (4 missiles) occurred in South Waziristan's Tehsil Barmal area on a house where suspected Tehreek-e-Taliban dwelt. 5 killed- 3 injured- (2 out of the 5 were Tehreek -e-Taliban commanders)- the house completely dsintegrated in the missile attacks. There are people in Great Britain who are keeping track of all innocent civilians killed in the drone strikes both in Pakistan and Afghanistan. UK Guardian has articles establishing factually civilian deaths and US Federal Court will hear a case based on civilian deaths in drone strikes in a sovereign country's autonomous area without declaration of war. Only Obama's Kill Lists designate all suspects to be killed extrajudiciously.

Dou44, Let the Drones fly in flocks and fill the Paki skys!! Shoot them all and let Allah sort them out.......Worthless terrorist nation and we should cut every penny donated to them.

About 12 yrs ago, I sat with Paul Tibbets and his wife and talked with them at an air show in St Paul Mn. Tibbets was the pilot who flew the Enola gay bomber over Japan during WWII. and dropped the big one. Killed thouands and wounded thousands more. It was to make the Japanese end the war....they didn't. He made it perfectly clear it was the right decision. How many more Americans would have died if that act had not been taken. It took another bomb to be dropped to end the fantasies of the Japanese military.

Again..deliberate false info to start a war, or deliberate false info to kill innocents is criminal. Iraq was such a place under Bush Jr.

They have to practice so they can target people speaking out against our government.ADAA. watch what you say.Obama is like Stalin with advanced weapons.

Guess they never heard of "COLLATERAL DAMAGE".

"Execution by whim of the king is a throwback to the Dark Ages or likened unto a vicious dictatorship"

"watch what you say.Obama is like Stalin with advanced weapons"

The tinfoil hat crowd is more concerned with their delusional beliefs about President Obama than with the military significance of retaliatory strikes he orders against real enemies who actually exist.

Well I'm glad they were at least "suspected" . That makes it O.K.

BTW, this terrorist problem has been around longer than most people would realize.

Here's some interesting history and documents:

The ANC (African National Congress)


1970's: Now the legitimate, elected government of S. Africa, the ANC, was on the State Departments list of Terrorist groups for a number of years.


"U.S. officials helped justify dealings with the apartheid government by pointing to the ANC's place on the State Department's list of terrorist groups."

1948: Before the state of Israel was created in 1948 Palestine was a British protectorate. Militant Jewish (Zionist) groups operated in the area with the goal of driving the british out and establishing a Jewish State. Two former Prime Ministers of Israel, Menachem Begin and Yitzak Shamir were members of militant jewish groups which used "terrorist" tactics and were designated terrorist by the British authorities. The top wanted poster shows Former Israeli Prime minister Menachem Begin (circled) who was a member of the Irgun organization and the bottom poster shows former Prime minister Yitzak Shamir (Second from left) who was in the Stern Gang, also known as the Lehi.
The other militant Zionist organization (and the biggest) was the Haganah. David Ben Gurion, Israel's first prime minister was a high official in Haganah. The Haganah sometimes denounced the Irgun and the Stern Gang as "Terrorist" and tried to suppress them but Haganah sometimes also used tactics that would be considered "Terrorist" today.

http://attendingtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/begin-wanted-poster.jpg?w=614

1940-1944, German Occupied Europe:

From Nuremberg War Crimes Trials:


"CASE NO. 72
THE GERMAN HIGH COMMAND TRIAL
TRIAL OF WILHELM VON LEEB AND THIRTEEN OTHERS
UNITED STATES MILITARY TRIBUNAL, NUREMBERG,
30TH DECEMBER. 1947 - 28TH OCTOBER, 1948
Part I
(http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/ghctrial1.htm)


...The accused Lehmann (Generaloberstabsrichter Rudolf Lehmann, see below) pleaded that the original ideas were Hitler's but there seems to be no doubt from the evidence that Lehmann substantially contributed to the final product. The evidence did not suffice to show any criminal connection on the part of the accused Warlimont with this decree.

On the 1st July, 1944, the accused Warlimont sent the following teletype to the chief of the legal department of the OKW (WR), the accused Lehmann :


" Subject : Combating of enemy terrorists in the occupied territories.


" On account of events in Copenhagen, the Fuehrer has decreed that court-martial proceedings against civilians in the occupied territories must be discontinued with immediate effect. WR is requested to submit suggestions for the draft of an order concerning the treatment of enemy terrorists and saboteurs among the civilian population in the occupied territories by 2nd July, 2000 hours.


" Policies :
" Terror can be countered only by terror, but court-martial sentences only create martyrs and national heroes.


" If German units or individual soldiers are attacked in any manner, the commander of the unit and/or the individual soldier are bound to take counter measures independently and, in particular, to exterminate terrorists. Terrorists or saboteurs who are arrested later, must be turned over to the SD."
0002000009BE000007479B8,
" The Fuehrer Decree on the treatment of enemy Kommandos, dated 18th October, 1942 . . . will remain in force as it does not apply to the civil population."

If one has allies like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, one does not need enemies.

Hope Osama case has woken up even those in deep slumber.

Pakis, acting as allies, are responsible for half of NATO force deaths and humiliations in Afghanistan.

Instead of these drone attacks, there should be massive carpet bombings of Paki militant areas.

If these carpet bombings are correct/OK during 1991 Iraqi war, why it is not being done here?

Pakistan has nukes . So yes by all means let's get ww3 started so u can in list. You don't want the politicians and Bankers kids to do all the fighting now do you?

@lynseypug: The world doesn't have to revolve around the whims and pitfalls of the corrupt American political system and its terrible foreign policy.

NATO money is more wisely spent on the Northern Resupply Route, which when developed will also provide a major economic boost to many of the former Soviet Republics. The Pakkis do not hold quite the stranglehold that they'd like to think.

Economic boost your case means transfer of great wealth from the US treasury to those whateverstan gov'ts in a costly enterprise that yields no profit nor return of any sort to the US taxpayers. That's not even a Bush-Obama US auto industry bailout which did yield profitable returns. The military and endless war is a money pit, and your example is perfect one.

I agree with you.

First bomb the nuke facilities. Worry about Paki nukes more than Iran's.

If these Paki nukes are not eliminated by bombings, don't be surprised if the nukes fall into the hands of Islamic militants.

Even Iran may get hold of some of them.

Last time I checked the U.S. wasn't at war with Pakistan. I wonder what the reaction would be if Pakistan was to target radical Islamists via Drone attack in Detroit.....

Think about it, and be careful what you ask for, because you might just get it.

Pakistan is using the Afghan war to fill their pockets and .... need I say more.

As much as I wish they would be more cooperative. NATO and American Forces should have their naval frigits lined up on their southern shore and make the B-Line exit out of Afghanistan through their territory.

Tell them enough is enough, we are leaving this waste land you call your home and try to stop us. If you do, you'll have to spend all that money that you embezzled during the war to rebuild your army.

Let these goat suckers understand that we have been trying to be rational, but that time has come to an end... One shoot and we'll show you the meaning of scorched earth.

^ Killing is legal in war. Torture is not. Per the Geneva convention.

Killing civilians is not legal if they are intentionally targeted or collectively punished- which the US has done. You need to read the documents.

"...or collectively punished- which the US has done."

Please provide the evidence that the US is deliberately targeting non-combatant civilians for the purpose of punishing them.

Well I hate to quote Bush on this one...but..."you are either with us or against us" So pick off as many as you can. When terrorists hide among the people and use them as shields.......It is why none of you ran for president. At the same time using false intel deliberately to start a war is criminal.....

Please learned one cite the section ion the Geneva Convention to which you allude?

Otherwise clam up.

Do Islamic radicals and militants follow any rules, laws and conventions while killing and blowing up innocents?

If they follow any one of them, then follow all laws on earth.

Many biased and people with half knowledge are screaming on innocent children, women being killed and so on in Syria and where required. These jokes were there even during Iraqi wars.

As soon as British invented Pakistan in 47, within two years most of the minorities were wiped out through massive genocides.

Where were those talking/ranting/screaming of human rights, laws, conventions, UN and on on while these children and women were wiped out just because of their religions?

Are all laws, rules and conventions selective?

If we continue dipping our $65,000 hellfire missile cup into the ocean, eventually we will drain it.

Whatever one does one can't please Pakis, Saudis and others in their own mad Islamic religious hell holes.

Just to avoid action on infidel, even if one converts to a Muslim, it is no use.

They will look with micrscope on the sect one has converted to.

Shiites (18 percent) in Pakistan are going through what minorities went through during 48-50.

Barbaric and beastly bigoted Saudis are doing all their dances and drama to remove Assad as he just happens to be of Shiite sect.

US soldiers saved the Saudis and co without Bibles. Despite this, they funded their extremist versions of Sunni Salaffi, Wahhabi mosques all over the world. They manipulated high oil prices.

Still they gave in return 9/11.

Now they want us to do their dances in Syria and Iran.

Still Saudis, Pakis and co will not be pleased!

looks like Noble Peace Prize winner is racking up quite the tally

^ Agreed. He ended the war in Iraq. Prevented a genocide in Libya, and his saved God only knows how many innocent lives by taking out Al-Qaeda terrorists whose sole purpose in life it to plot the murder of innocent people every day.

He ended the war in Iraq...

No, they kicked us out. President Obama was trying to extend our stay longer, but the Iraqis held us to the agreement to leave.

Not that I am not happy we are out by any means, but keep truth in perspective. It is still the same game, for the most part. Just that Obama is better at not seeming to appear very enthused by and about it as W was.

Well Sonja, how many innocents were killed on 9/11? Do we just let terrorists attack and say "ow, please don't do that again"?

Iraq was a waste of time and lives. Afghanistan (Taliban) was harboring Islamist terrorists (Al Qaeda) whose energies were and are directing death on any and all Americans. Even if we withdraw all troops from every Muslim country, they will continue to attack because Israel exists.

What is your solution to the terrorist threat, Sonja?

~RedSonja~,

Just how are you so sure that "over 800 were innocent"? First off you need to realize that every one of these militants are civilians. They fly no flag and wear no uniforms and have no allegiance to a government. If women and children are sitting around making roadside bombs, are they innocent? When they smuggle and supply the militant fighters are they innocent? The fact is you don't have a clue as to whether or not any of these killed are "innocent". Just because you are old or young or a women does not somehow imply that you are "innocent".

These fighters take their families with them for logistical support. They conduct war activities in their homes. Some of these people may not be entirely dedicated to the cause, but that doesn't make them "innocent". You can't look at the bodies and make that call.

As to "reports", who do you trust? Do you think that if the drone strikes were 100% effective and only the worst of the worst militants were killed, that they would be saying, "Yeah, you guys got us, your efforts against are are flawless and highly effective." No of course you would not expect such a response, even if it were absolutely accurate. The fact is these militants don't like getting blown up out of the clear blue and they will do anything in their power to stop the attacks. These militants kill more of their own then us. They have no problem using their own families and innocents if necessary to protect their own skins. The fact is that some "independent reports" count every elderly, youthful or woman casualty as an innocent civilian. They take accounts that say, "he was just a simple farmer", and count that person as an innocent. Do you think they try to investigate that person? They make no attempt whatsoever to see through smoke and mirrors.

The drones don't just fly around looking for anything that moves and shooting at it. These attacks are based on intelligence and careful observations. Where do you think that intelligence is coming from? Do you really think it is just some satellite pictures? If so, how do you pick out one building in a village of dozens? The reality is that the intelligence comes from the innocents who live down the road and don't want these militants operating in their area and exploiting all their resources for their militant war games.

The vast majority of the locals have no use for these terrorists because they spend more time terrorizing and abusing the innocents than they do conducting attacks against US forces. In a real government controlled country, taxes are collected from the citizens to build and support the military. In a terrorist campaign, the terrorists "tax" the locals for whatever they need, and they do it in a rather non-democratic way. The tribal leaders in these remote villages don't like being coerced and abused by these militants who are for the most part not even locals, but foreigners who have come there for refuge. If you don't think that these leaders aren't providing intelligence to the US forces who will take these people out, you are being naive.

If your neighborhood is getting invaded by drug dealers and gangs are you going to quietly accept it or are you going to find ways to anonymously report these guys to authorities? Our police don't use drone strikes, but if a big drug bust happens down the street from you, are you not quietly rejoicing when you see these guys getting hauled away in handcuffs? Of course you are. But if publicly questioned about it, you may very well be much more reserved and maybe even sound somewhat supportive of those arrested, because you don't want to make yourself a target for revenge. Imagine how you would behave if there was absolutely no police or authoritarian presence in your area.

There is little doubt that the militants' surviving families are going to be upset and claiming complete innocence. It's human nature. And the neighbors will attend the funerals pretending to be greiving too because they don't want to appear anything but supportive. This is what exploitation is all about.

I have little doubt that some innocent casualties occur, but I believe your figures are grossly exaggerated. It would be nice to have a world without violence, but it isn't going to happen. And it would be "nice" to have wars without innocents getting hurt, but that isn't completely realistic either. It is even more difficult when some of the warring parties are in reality civilians themselves and make every effort to disguise themselves. In fact, in such a war, these type tactics like drone strikes are exactly the way to combat the enemies' tactics. Leaving the nowhere to hide when the basic strategy they use is to strike and go hide, is in fact the best way to deal with it.

Pakistan may publicly complain and they do that for their own government's security, but the reality is that they are actually supportive. These drone attacks are launched from within Pakistan at bases they have approved. The Pakistani military is not some backwater band of incompetents. If they wanted the attacks stopped, they could end them in an instant. They could throw us out of every base. Drones are easy targets for even a poor airforce. Pakistan could be shooting these down with little problem. They have the capability. So quit fooling yourself.

I am generally anti-war and a Progressive with many liberal ideas, but I'm also a realist. I don't want to see innocents killed anywhere, but I take the time to understand the situation and don't just react to something I read. I choose to believe my country first and then research for validity.

As to the use of surveillance drones in the US, it is a concern, but I worry more about the private use of these drones than government use. Many do not realize it, but the door has been opened for private use. It is private companies that collect more data and intelligence on all of us than the government. We elect our government, we don't elect corporate leaders or the wealthy people with power. We have very detailed rules for the government, but in reality, very few for private concerns. You are right to be concerned and I would agree that some small local government entities could easily abuse these capabilities, but I worry more about the private sector. In theory, the government is there to collectively protect us all, (admittedly, we all don't agree about how they do that, but we can change it through elections). On the other hand, private business exists to make money. All the data and intelligence collected by the private sector isn't about protecting you or graciously providing you with useful services, it is all about finding the most effective ways to separate you from your money. Is that in your best interests or theirs?

Neuter the thuggish Israeli land thieves and stop being their pimp.

Dont get caught filming the police in action.Obama makes George Bush look good.

DOU - They most defiantly KNOW who they are shooting at. You want to think that they randomly target individuals in target areas? These thugs have been tracked through surveillance, observed in transition from combat areas into sanctuary, delivering weapons, meeting in known residences of known insurgents, tracked by following their communications, and identified by informants. These terrorists choose to hide in and operate from civilian areas. They use civilians as shields and support. The bombs they set off in Kabul kill civilians as well as allied soldiers - THEY make no distinction. THEY actively target the families of government officials.

Dear Mr. Terrorist - If you don't want your 2nd cousins kids to be put at risk then don't hang around them- go live in a cave - remember - the more you do the more likely you will be identified and tracked!

As far as "Israeli Land Thieves" are concerned - Any sympathy I may have had for the Palestinians evaporated when they took to the street waving pictures of Osama Bin Ladin and celebrating after 911.

Redsonja, those children are innocent only until they are old enough to carry weapons or become suicide bombers.

Shallow fear mongers condemning an entire nation down to the children. Not ONE Afghani was involved in the planning and/or implementation of 9-11, even by the US Government's 911 Commision. Where is your bravado demanding we attack Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the countries that the Hijackers were actually from?

Shame on you, cowards. With minds like yours, I see how far America/US has gone down the @!$%#ter and are as bad or worse than those you wish death upon.

Cowards.

notsojingo,

First off, this attack and the most of the drone attacks are in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. So your point about no Afghans being involved in 9/11 is pointless.

Second, this isn't about 9/11 per se, it is about terrorists who are going after virtually every Western world interest and more closer to home, attacking US and NATO troops in Afghanistan.

Third, we are not attacking Pakistan or Afghanistan, we are attacking specific militants, many of whom come from the countries you mention and others.

Fourth, it would have been stupid and misdirected to attack Saudi Arabia or Jordan after 9/11. It was not those governments that attacked us. In fact, the Saudi government has been under attack by the very same militants. Al Qaida was started about overthrowing the Saudi government. This is not a war about governments and country's military forces. These are radical militants who really have no loyalty to a country, they come from a variety of places and go to areas where they can operate outside of any government. In fact, the mission of Al Qaida and similar offshoots is to eliminate the governments in the region and create one massive, unified "Muslim State" that has no secular government. The places they gather like Pakistan's Nothern tribal region, Yemen's similar tribal regions and Somali, are essentially outside of those countries' government reach and control. In Pakistan and Yemen, these militants pose a major threat to their governments and in the case of Somalia, there essentially is no government with military, police or any security forces to speak of.

So before you start comparing us to our "enemies", get educated on who our enemies are and how they operate. You obviously know very little about what is going on and why. I will agree, only very loosely, that we need to be cautious that we don't take on the tactics of the terrorists. Things like torturing captured people, wholesale slaughter of innocents, and acts designed to kill randomly to gain a reaction, have to be off the table. If for example, we had bombed Saudi Arabia after 9/11, we would have been taking a terrorist type action. What we are doing is as close as you can get to a surgical action against only the every specific individuals who pose a threat. We are not carpet bombing or destroying every village in the mountains of Pakistan, we are going after single buildings where these militants reside. We are not bombing Islamabad or destroying their infrastructure because their government is to blame. (It isn't, although some support for these groups may exist within segments of the official Pakistani government.) In fact we operate these drone attacks out of bases right there in Pakistan with the approval of their government, even though the Pakistani government publicly denounces the attacks. They do so to keep their citizens in check and calmed down. They know full well that the militants pose a threat to their government.

Know one last thing. The reason these terrorist groups are able to gather support is because they are very good at taking single incidents, dramatizing them and conning an uneducated, uninformed public. Personally, if I see a parallel in the US, it is linked to what makes the terrorists effective. In this country, some interests do exactly the same thing. Taking specific emotional issues, twisting them and firing up a public who for the most part is clueless about what is really going on. You either need to get yourself educated and informed or decide to remain completely passive or you will become one of these suckers getting conned by mis-information. What happens here and what the terroists do, is in both cases really politically motivated and it is about gaining power and control.

1NewDay

Hello! Other than assuming I am misinformed or am likely to be suckered/conned by misinformation, thank you for a long laundry list of comments not pertaining to those towards which my post was addressing. Perhaps I can clear that up now.

Shallow fear mongers condemning an entire nation down to the children. Not ONE Afghani was involved in the planning and/or implementation of 9-11, even by the US Government's 911 Commision. Where is your bravado demanding we attack Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the countries that the Hijackers were actually from?

Shame on you, cowards. With minds like yours, I see how far America/US has gone down the @!$%#ter and are as bad or worse than those you wish death upon.

Cowards.

The cowards I refer to are those that comment it is fine and proper to destroy lives of innocents, that there are NO innocents if you reside in Pakistan or Afghanistan(or anywhere our 'enemies' reside). Why you take umbrage to my position without really having a clue towards what my positions are, circumspect or otherwise, does not really concern me as much as the tone in which you write taking the defense of such cowards.

Now as far as not attacking Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or any of the countries which the 'terrorists' involved in 911 are concerned, I do not by ANY means advocate attacking ANY country that has not attacked the US AS a country, which is why my objections to the illegal Iraq War(either of them) are deeply rooted. If YOU are suckered/conned into believing we are soley a benevolent country that did the Iraq thingy to liberate its people and bring them Democracy, you do need to find a mirror and read your comment to me back into it. We went to secure the Oil fields for Foreign and Domestic Corporate Interests, which woill find you most likely to spin into my being a conspiracy theorist.

Like Agent Orange won't hurt you, Monsanto and the few MegaAgras are not poisoning the World's Food Supply, we need the continuing increases of our Militay Budget, and America is the next Greece, There Is No Global Climate Changes caused by Man(anthropogenic global warming), or a number of other misinformational, governmentally repressed truths!!

I thank you for your concern. I respectfully offer to clear up any other misconceptions you may derive regarding my ability to research and define my own beliefs and commentary.

Peace, and FR sent. I like to know those that care about others.

If I am misreading you as much as you misread me, please do not accept.

PAK's gov't is on the side that prolongs its survival and fends off Indian meddling which may not coincide with selfish murderous Americans watching from the other side of the world.

Exactly Dou44. As are all governments. The concept of allies and friends is misguided. Thomas Jefferson was an isolationinst and he didn't want to get involved in the wars over old Europe. We need to do what is best for us, and expect all other governments to do the same.

Oh yes, King Obummer is wielding his power. Pumping out executive orders like a pez dispenser.

truthlover9/11

I am glad that not everybody is beating the waar drums; all I read is kill kill kill! 50 years America was loved by the rest of the world. Now our military is all over the world and we are about the most hated people on earth. Terrorist coutry #1, or may be #2 just behind Israel.

Copy & Pasted from above:

"Shallow fear mongers condemning an entire nation down to the children. Not ONE Afghani was involved in the planning and/or implementation of 9-11, even by the US Government's 911 Commision. Where is your bravado demanding we attack Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the countries that the Hijackers were actually from?

Shame on you, cowards. With minds like yours, I see how far America/US has gone down the @!$%#ter and are as bad or worse than those you wish death upon.

Cowards."

I do not hesitate to repeat it.

Peace

You can't see the difference? I can't see how you can make such a statement. Can't you see the difference between intentionally killing a civilian and unintentionally killing a civilian who happens to be in the vicinity of a military target?

And that soldier will probably not get life in prison because it's pretty clear he was out of his mind.

Pakistan is forced to play a game in which it sides- through US bribes, payouts- with a threatening foreign power against the interest of peace with various armed tribal factions- some were armed and paid by the USA-in its North and Afghanistan. By allowing the US to kill "alleged militants" ( are they militants, farmers or is it the wrong house? ) on its soil, it is inching closer to civil war and weakened while facing a stronger India.

^ By allowing Al-Qaeda terrorists safe refuge in Pakistan they are dooming themselves to war.

Says who, the King of terrible and criminal foreign policy with the army of occupation and its robot aircraft?

Killing "alleged militants" with cowardly robots is criminal. It is execution by whim because there is no arrest, trial, nor evidence presented against the accused in any court system. That is whim taken beyond Bills of Attainder. The US has blackmailed Pakistan using India as the threat, and the executions on Pakistani soil are crimes. Al queda is a comically ridiculous US ruse. Their numbers might have been 600 in 2001 but are now less than that of a rural high school senior class. You continually fall for the discredited blowhard propaganda.

Cowardly robots? Planes, tanks, submarines or pirate ships and horses.

Speaking of blowhard propaganda ^^^

Maybe, if China really takes over. yea, right.