I don't see these leaked documents can be considered an "attack" on the pope. They merely reveal what's actually going on behind the veil of a "religious" organization (LOL).

You know what the craziest thing about this story is?

The Pope ....... has a @!$%#ing butler?

Are you serious?

What would Jesus think of that, and what the hell happened to Christians?

To Chad:

It's called "Jesus Incorporated" and it's a real money maker. Any politician or Corporation who claims "Jesus" as their co-pilot (so to speak) is a liar and doesn't believe in the biblical Jesus any more than I believe that the Pope sh1ts in the woods. Christians today, particularly the US version, would hate Jesus if they actually knew him and what he really stood for.

The GOP would have him kidnapped and call him a terrorist so that they could make him disappear down a hole somewhere rather than let him spread his "Give away everything you own to the poor and follow me" message. Good lord, can you imagine someone telling anyone in the US a message like that, particularly the wealthy? The son of god would be locked away in an asylum before you could say 'second coming'...

Don't address the problem(s), attack the person who is shining light on it... I'm sure Jesus would be very proud of what "His" church has become.

I'm not attacking, but I'd honestly like to hear why individuals are still involved with the Catholic church (not the belief system, but the actually organization) after the continued scandals, abuse, etc. If this had been a "business" investors would have run for the hills and it would have gone under years ago. I honestly wonder what keeps people tied to the organization (again, not judging or attacking... believe it or not I am honestly asking the question).

It is hard to get the whole story here because most of the leaks have not been translated into English. They are written in Vatican Italian, so they are not easy to translate. Think of it like Shakespearean English... you can't just plop it into a translator and have the full meaning come across. Either way, the leakers are trying to speed up reforms. They seem to be trying to discredit or push out Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone to further that cause. In my opinion, this is not different than the internal politics in any government, club or sorority.

While his intentions may be noble, it is still a crime (or fireable offense) to make your bosses private communications public.

That he has a butler is not strange. The pope is a very busy man, and he has people who help him do the mundane things that are not worthy of his time. Most leaders of nations have hired help... Why should the Pope be different?

The pope looks like he's taken it in the _____— too many times, even the butler is in on it. Oh hell, I'm going hell for that statement.

Futureshock2012: People will pay homage to the devil if they believe it's their ticket to heaven. Parishioners hold just as much responsibility and are just as culpable as the shysters and criminals running these religious outfits because knowing their evils, they still continue to support them financially and keep them in business. These people may think they're making points with their creator for their "loyalty", but I wouldn't take that bet.

As for shareholders supporting a corrupt corporation, it goes on all the time; just look at Wall street, et al.

This doesn't surprise me at all. The Catholic Church (like most organized religions of the world) are full of corruption and greed.

Same dirty facts for all religions !!!

Time to shut down the Vatican and replace it with a real government. While we are at it let's close down the cult of Catholicism and tax churches and religious (i.e. political) organizations here in America. Time we left ancient superstitious deity worship in the trash bin of history where it belongs. OH, and of course we should start prosecuting pedophiles that hid in churches - none more guilty than the Catholics.

Where do we sign up to overturn religious tax exemptions?

Yeah I don't want to call these folks "judases" See.. see, Judas... did something wrong.

Catholicism isn't Christian, not from the start. The initial pope was a politician, not Peter. The Apostle Peter was a fisherman. I ain't never heard of no pope casting a line on a boat in a steaming middle eastern day.

Everyone knows Vatican is a fraud, they've known it for decades. Centuries even, if you wanna start counting from Martin Luther. From the beginning Jesus said, Weeds would be sown over the fine seed he sowed on during his life time. The weeds weren't sown by him. They were sown by the Devil. Seeds like Catholicism sprouted spread and when the sects started breaking off they took the teaching of Catholicism with him. Lutheran, Anglican, and American Protestantism all hold the same basic teachings as the Catholic Church.

The end is coming for these corrupt institution. Like the weeds in the parable, they will be gathered up and burned in a fire, destroyed forever. Hallelujah!

Dogma & Future; Catholics stay in the church because of death. They drift away when they get out on their own, but the second a family member dies, they run back to their comfort zone asap. Just to show you how many live by the rule of fear, look at all the people who bought into GW's fear tactics - wezz bee gullible wezz izz.

Well, I think they are suppose to come to their decisions through prayer and meditation, not politicking and backstabbing. Is the book in English yet?

do the pope... smoke dope...

Futureshock2012, since you are honestly asking in 1.4, I will try to give you an honest answer. I am a Sunday school teacher and I come from a family of Roman Catholic Sunday school teachers. Our ministry is teaching and running catholic youth retreats for teens and young adults. To give you an idea of how difficult the churches current policies are for our family, you should also know that my sister is gay and I firmly believe in a woman’s right to choose what she does with her own body because we have no right to impose our beliefs on others against their will which is clearly stated in our catechism. As far as we are concerned, the pope (and most priests now a days), are doing nothing but preach hate and war.

Looking back, it really isn’t that surprising. Pope Benedict’s order was the one that led the last inquisition. They have never really followed the spirit of the church, but always aim to make it political. He was only chosen as pope because he was the oldest and frailest option. What most people who don’t closely follow church politics don’t understand is that popes as good as pope John Paul don’t come around by accident, they have to be found and pulled into position. When John Paul died, they didn’t have a successor worthy of him ready, so they picked the person likely to die the soonest. When Benedict was named pope, he was old and in poor health, they estimated he would only last 3 years at most—not enough to do any lasting damage but enough to get a good person in place. When it appeared he would outlive that timeframe they asked him to retire (he still has poor health), but he is power hungry and so remains. His “reign” will not last forever, this phase will be over soon.

In the meantime, we stick around so the next generation can be shielded some from this hate. If we were not here to teach these children and teens that what he is doing is wrong, then the cycle will continue. Why should the next generation suffer because of one bad apple? The church has a long history, this phase will pass.

As for the death comments, and running away from the church, I would leave in a heartbeat if it weren't for these kids. They don't deserve to be raised in hate. That is the real reason most of the Catholics who stay in the church who are active in it stay, they stay to try and fix it. Those who leave and come back, come back for their children, to try to teach them faith.

@Jane, interesting responce. I'm not religious in your sense of the word and feel that what your doing for the children is wonderful and I assume you find fulfilling. I do have one question. Aren't you worried that by doing what you are doing, against the popes decreas that one of these youth's parents might not see things the way you do and cause problems for you? After all followers are made up of many people end in the groupe there has to be one or some extreme thinkers.

jane: It appears as though you mean well and your heart is in the right place, but the church will never change. It has lost its moral compass and its way for many hundreds of years. It would be like staying on Wall Street in an effort to change their business model from corrupt to moral. It will never happen.

For those who stay, no matter their intentions, are still one way or another, supporting and keeping this cesspool alive and functioning.

the nuns and any other Catholics who are unhappy with the church can leave any time they want. They choose to join, choose to stay, and if they don't like it, why should any of the rest of us give a hoot? I'm not a Catholic, but members of my family are, and it's their choice. they don't complain to me, because it's not my problem.

The "nuns and the unhappy Catholics" invite the evildoers to leave...we'll clean up after them.

Anne Beal,

what a typical answer from those who do not want to hear from the other side of the church. Shut up or get out. that is precisely why catholics, like myself, will not let comments like yours chase us out. We are demading accountability for what they have done and continue to do, and i would hope that any catholic would deeply want their church to be truthful, ethical, and reflect the Gospel. Some however would rather just lay back, go to mass, deny the obvious, and let the status quo continue because its easy. Well too much is at stake to allow the hierarchy to continue damaging our faith. If any catholic does not have the fortitude to stand up for what is right and just then get out of our way.

romy-3066511

You have that exactly right.

I see myself as a Christian agnostic/atheist. I believe the guy they call Jesus, whether he actually existed or not, had the right message. Having spent years in Catholic Boarding and Porochial schools where all manner of abuse happened, and where the teaching they claim to live by are not how they actually live, I have lost all respect for the Catholic hierarchy. There are plenty of decent nuns and priests but most are there because it's convenient.

I would hope for a way to do away with the Vatican, sell the trillions of dollars of collectables, property and investments they have and actually help the poor and sick to the degree Jesus called for. Not gonna happen. The Church has a license to beg for tax free money and are in the franchise business.

Look, a guy that wears a dress and a pointed hat on weakends and a beanie during the week, designer slippers and clothes that are worth a small fortune is not a Christian even by his description.

Having said that, I will defend the right for people to believe what they want.

God Bless you, Anne Beal

Why pay attention, BECAUSE OF THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPE. If the Pope is shown to "be human", the Church Doctorine can be found to be invalid. As it stands, there is divine intervention in the Catholic Church's teachings, or so is the faith, and thus it can't be wrong.

Who cares? Science cares. In science you don't get the leeway to have a theory without supporting facts. Gravity exists without being right or wrong, whether you like it or not, and if there wasn't one surviving human on the planet to observe the influence of gravity, it would still be there. Not so with a Papal Cannon. The biology, chemistry. and ecological impact of birth control for instance will and can transpire without a Church Policy, however, because of the number of people in the world who seek church guidance governing their personal reproductive health, immense costs to society and the planet transpire, just by the sheer number of Catholics worldwide. Same goes for Economic Health, Judicial Practices, etc. Thus one must be aware of the adverse social impacts wrought by Catholic teaching as well as theological and spiritual insights, whether you agree, disagree, or like it or not. Scientific teachings claim no Good nor Bad.

This scandal is not an internal, private matter, because of the Church's public stands on individual behaviors. If the Church feels it has the authority to delve into the private lives of individuals, the private individuals should have the authority to delve into the public church, because that's where their money is going.

Steve, what a bizarre rant. How can science care? Science isn't a sentient being, it has no emotions. Science is just a tool for understanding how the world works. I don't get why some people feel the need to adopt it as some sort of over-arching principle that governs their entire life. And I'm a scientist.

Anne, this is newsworthy, because the Vatican is more than the Holy See of the Catholic Church. It is a sovereign country. This is more of a "national scandal" than a church one. Steve, the Pope is not considered "Infallible," except when making proclamations on Church Doctrine.

@ ap-2718492

...actually, Steve wasn't engaged in any kind of bizarre rant. I think he very eloquently stated at the conclusion of his message:

"If the Church feels it has the authority to delve into the private lives of individuals, the private individuals should have the authority to delve into the public church, because that's where their money is going"

This is Steve's message:

1. The Catholic Church operates much like a governmental state based upon the assumption that a supernatural entity exists who created us, and watches everything we do.

2. The Catholic Church interprets what this supernatural being wants and needs, and conveys this message to other human beings as "The Word of God".

3. The Catholic Church has shown, time and time again, that it does not engage in the wholesome, kind, and altruistic manners you'd expect from an organization that claims divine rights.

4. If humans must believe in something: Should they (A) believe in an self-serving organization involved with telling others how to live based upon some nonsensical belief that a magical, invisible man in the sky is creating these rules; or (B) should they believe in what they can see, hear, touch smell, and taste and in the principals and rules that can be proven time and time again in a lab environment?

I believe Steve was simply implying that people would be better served if they've placed their faith in science and the facts that much of science can be shown to be proven fact (versus the fiction that organized religion represents).

"keep it internal & private"

LOL, hahahaha, you're too......funny.

because the Pope and his misogynistic posse have protected pedophiles, covered up sexual abuse, physical abuse, took infants from their birth mothers and then gave the babies to other people, demanding that people not exercise birth control even if the parents can't afford to feed, clothe, and shelter the children born --

all the while these MEN are living in luxury despite their vows of poverty ...

they're pi$$ing on the legs of the "faithful" sheep and calling it rain...

Has it occurred to you that many of the institutions you reference actually ARE on the fringes of society? Have you read any history regarding the Catholic Church and Western civilization? Any thoughts on how many Catholics there are (still) in the world? Any thoughts on the which is the largest religious voting group in the US?

I couldn't care less either way...I came here to simply mention that I thought it odd that in the whole article there's no actual mention of the leaks themselves (just a vague reference to abuse of power).

Steve Herbert: do you mean that in terms of Judaism (since its God has do form, so it's hard to grab) there cannot be any guilt spoken out? No human nature of God, so no responsibility?

EVERYONE is responsible for his/her deeds in the country where those deeds happen. Every country has its laws which need to be followed. God is not above anyone or anything, since it's just a smart spiritual invention.

I liked once Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz's comment on the Pope, the Pope's stand on birth control, and the problem of feeding the world's hungry, " He no playa da game, he no make da rules. " That comment cost him his position, but before the days of genetically engineered crops, there was concern about feeding the world's hungry. and that "moral burden" fell on the shoulders of mostly US, Canadian, and Australian farmers.

I'm a scientist, and however you feel about God is your own personal faith, I'm not about to interfere with. Nor am I going to argue about who's right. My concern is agricultural land and water quality, not just for human use but for fish and wildlife resources available for public viewing or consumption. If the Pope want's fish to be eaten on Friday, is the Catholic Church giving sermons on water quality to raise the fish in, what biomass of the resource can be harvested in the world's oceans to sustain both fish populations and the humans and livestock which depend on that resource for a protein source. Is the Pope going to maintain a Coast Guard to protect those resources from overfishing, other treaties and conflicts, blah, blah, blah...Just to eat fish on Friday.

Science cares, or should I say scientists care, because they have the responsibility, and the accountability, MOSTLY ON THE TAX DOLLAR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ISN'T PROVIDING, to provide good, valid information, so the policy makers ( your elected representatives], can see to it the Catholics get fish, the Protestants get fish, the Jews get fish, the Muslims get fish, and the Athiests and Agnostics get fish. Or clean agricultural water for other food crops, blah blah blah.

What is your elected representative doing? He (or she) probably knows little to nothing about fish or water quality, but has to vote on a treaty between nations which boils down to how many fish get harvested being linked to how many cars or appliances get imported, and that's JOBS AROUND THE WORLD, which get impacted because millions need to follow their faith to eat fish on Friday. So you might be able to decipher from this truncated example, the Catholic Church really isn't on the ball when it comes the impacts it's policies may cause, nor are the followers of the faith worldly aware.

Now personally I think adults should be aware of birth control, valid fishing licenses, and water quality standards. Other scientists might disagree with me, feeling air quality and forests are more significant problems. But I think many would agree with me ( not with my religious convictions, but my math calculations ) that if the churches paid taxes to offset the costs of figuring these food and water quality problems out, the world would be a better place for mankind, and its fish and wildlife and other resources as well.

pride goes before the fall

Depends on if you love fishing. Good fishermen look for worms under rocks, etc. Its a pretty sight to them.

JIMD.BOSTON.MA------catholics have always preferred to not ''look under the rock''---pedophilia comes to mind.

Oh you said butler, thought you said butter.

But in this case, the butler was trying to expose corruption and wrong doing and the boss didn't like it. Maybe he should have said, "the devil made me do it."

puff, puff, past... don't be so greedy.

Right ON, Michael!!!!

The Catholic Church was established by God Himself

That's what every church proclaims: that it's the only True Church, and all others are not. And now you can do whatever you want, because you proclaimed yourself Infallible.

Are you really serious? This is the same institution that murdered a minimum of 9 million people who did not conform to dogma or had land and possesions that the church wanted to confiscate. God did not establish the catholic church, men did.

By higher standards, are you talking about the molestation of children and then trying to cover it up?

Michael, I have no idea how you got an internet connection from the year 1504, but thanks for putting in your opinion. Sexual abuse is 10x worse in public schools?! Please show me the statistic to back up that blatantly made up "fact". The most disturbing part about it is that the abuse in the Catholic Church is known and covered up. Anyone else charged with sexual crimes can't continue to work with kids, or live near a school, or a park...but a Catholic priest just gets moved to another Sunday school with a new group of unsuspecting children. We have freedom of religion, which is great, believe whatever you want, but don't go into it blindly. If you think the Catholic Church has no interest in political influence or economic power, look at the history of this organization and think again.

So, let me get this straight...teaching high morals....So, I can basically do whatever I want, go to confession, pray so many Hail Mary's, and my soul is cleansed....and these are your high morals?

Also, exactly WHO says the Catholic church is God's Church? The Catholic Church you say? Bahahahahahaha.

Alex and others,

It's God's Church, because it's the one and ONLY Church established personally by Jesus the Christ. So, the answer is it's God's Church, because Jesus said so.

None of the others who claim to be can back that up with any truth. Any knowledgeable person can show you multiple reasons why Protestant ecclesial communities are not God's Church, but established by men. Islam is not from God. JW and Mormon is man made as well.

If you're educated in truth, you know... perhaps that's why many of you ask how it can be... you lack the truth.

Okay Michael, so where do you get that information? I have never read that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus. Please do point me to the CREDIBLE source.

You speak of our lack of knowledge and education. Educate us please. Not just by saying so, but proving it.

Here dubs, info for you on public schools. They call it "passing the trash" when they allow a predator to leave and go to another school system.

By any serious examination of evidence and data, the sex abuse scandal in public schools today dwarfs anything that ever occurred in Catholic institutions, which had a sex abuse problem that peaked in 1970 with nearly 600 reported cases of sexual abuse in the church nationwide that year.

Today, based on a study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, the number of reported sexual abuse cases in Catholic institutions nationwide is fewer than 10. That means more children have been sexually abused this year in public schools on the Front Range of Colorado than have been abused in Catholic institutions in all 50 states combined

Read more: #ixzz1wwoWLM1w

Also the report commissioned by the Bush administration:

It's God's Church, because it's the one and ONLY Church established personally by Jesus the Christ.

Michael --

Can you tell me where I might find your "jewel" of a fact that it's God's Church, because it's the one and ONLY Church established personally by Jesus the Christ.

As I recall Jesus was dead when the catholic church was established. How exactly did he establish the church?

Michael, don't take this the wrong way, but you are basically what is wrong with society.

I could cut-and-paste your rhetoric of "truth" and insert it right next to a tribal Afghan nomad, or a 5th century priest and no one (not a soul) would be able to distinguish it.

Religion ... only religion could make everyday, normal men and women defend a cult of child rapists and not even give it a second thought. What an absolute poison.

Jesus never established the Catholic church that is blasphemy.

"However, God's Church has never once taught error in faith and morals."

GOD has never once taught error in faith and morals.

the catholic church however speaks blashephemy.

the pope "is not letting himself be scared by these attacks, whatever their nature."

these attacks are by the living God himself. to expose the hypocrisy in each AND EVERY FALSE RELIGION. the catholic church is just the beginning. Remember how stiff necked pharoah was to believe the words of Moses that it was the living God himself who delcared his people to be freed?just count how many plagues he had to throw upon him until God acted alone in freeing his people out of Egypt. thats just how stiffnecked and prideful the pope will be until the living God moves His hand.

get out of Babylon Michael, get out of Babylon because its falling.

I guess that's why the church, under divine inspiration from its creator, led this in noble institution in such admirable pursuits as the crusades, the inquisition, etc. The church was there, alongside the conquistadores when they pilfered the new world, raping and anhilitating the inhabitants of the land they conquered. Also, let us not forget the persecution of jews, their deportation from Spain, the church's support of fascism as well as the pact Pope Pius XII signed with Hitler. Of course, nuns can't be called to the priesthood, simply because they are not male. If you care or want to know more about the papacy read "Absolute Monarchs: A History of the Papacy" by Sir John Julius Norwich, that is, if you really want to know the historical truth which clearly shows that mediocrity and unquenchable thirst for power has characterized the pontiffs more so than sanctity. Oh yes, I forgot...they are only human.

If that's the church you're talking about, thanks, you can have it.

Comment author avatarStepane

Okay Michael, so where do you get that information? I have never read that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus. Please do point me to the CREDIBLE source.

Actually, Jesus did establish the Catholic Church, according to the Bible. Mathew 16:18. Saying, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Peter, or the Greek name Petra, means rock. Peter was the first Pope according to the Catholic Church, this is not only according to the Roman Church, but also according to the Orthodox as well. All other Christian sects were established after that.

Michael Kocianvia Facebook

God's Church has never once taught error in faith and morals.

Just two examples:

Catholic Church Denies Legal Responsibility For Sexual Abuse ()

Catholic Church looks the other way during Nazi holocaust ()

Your idea that the Catholic Church is infallible and morally above reproach is a myth.

Having faith is a good thing. Morals are a good thing.

Believing that any man-created institution that proclaims to be the final word of a morally superior deity is never wrong, is at a minimum simple-minded and at worst outright dangerous.

"It's God's Church, because it's the one and ONLY Church established personally by Jesus the Christ. So, the answer is it's God's Church, because Jesus said so. "

Umm michael did you forget to take your risperidone today? Now step away from the keyboard and leave the nice people alone.

The disgust that people show in the Catholic Church for the sexual abuse cases in the US and abroad is not only due to the horrific acts that were done by priests everywhere, but because the Catholic Church leadership - bishops, cardinals, and arguably the pope himself, willfully chose to ignore it, cover it up, and even accomodate further abuses. These acts by church leadership were even more grotesque since they were the acts of supposedly righteous men, who were supposed to be moral leaders of a religion, and of communities, and who were entrusted with the care of their "flock", including children. They have been exposed as disgusting people who were far more concerned with protecting the institution, protecting their own power and stature, than protecting their flock and the principles that they supposedly stood for. Sadly, it is a story that has played out time and time again in history. Jesus Christ Himself would be disgusted with the Catholic Church, whether or not he personally built it. And for those who care to defend the (in)actions by comparing numbers of abused in schools, or other religions, or cub scouts or whatever - you are so desperately and errantly missing the point. Its not the numbers, its the institutionalized recklessness that the "Leaders" exhibited that makes it so much worse and tears down any credibility that the Vatican had left. No Catholic Bishop or Cardinal or Priest that had any involvement through particpation or sins of omission should be outside of a confession box yet - as the infinite Hail Mary's and Our Fathers that should be required of them are surely not completed yet.

Okay, so once again, I see that whole "according to the Catholic Church" thing. That verse says nothing about Peter being the first Pope. Just because the Catholic Church says so doesn't make it so.

I like gotquestions dot org. I tried to paste the link to the article in question, but it is all in there. I wonder if you can tell me after investigating further that the Catholic Church is the only true church started by Jesus. I mean really investigate. Not just go by what you are told by one of the wealthiest organizations in the world. How do you suppose they got so rich? They do a lot of good, but they also accumulate a great deal of wealth that they keep.

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Add to that one of our local priests who blatantly cruises young men at the exercise classes of our local YMCA. Guess getting it on with another man doesn't break the vow of chastity.

You anti-Catholic scoundrels are just a bunch of pliers on, knowing really nothing in reality. The Catholic Church was established by God Himself. The men in God's Catholic Church are not perfect. However, God's Church has never once taught error in faith and morals

Hate to break the news to you but there is no such thing as God. It's a myth created by cave-people thousands of years ago before they realized that the earth was round and that disease is caused by viruses and bacteria. I mean come on, when you want to talk to someone far away do you pray or do you use technology? Science has proven time and time again to be true knowledge and religion has proven time and time again to be nonsense.

The church, like all churches, was created and is run by men. Greedy business men that use mythology and fantasy to convince ignorant people to buy (literally) into their political agenda. It's just ancient big-business and they rely on suckers to fund their lavish lifestyle and right-wing political agenda. Try thinking for yourself for a change, you'll find it is refreshing when you don't have to be a blind sheep.

Michael, the Catholic (Roman) church was not started by God (Jesus). The church evolved from the day of Pentecost. The word "catholic" means universal, not specifically reserved for the church that developed at Rome. The New Testament does attribute the words to Jesus, "upon this rock I will build my church." Jesus was referring to Peter's faith and by example, the faith of all believers to be the cornerstone of the universal church (worldwide), and not a local church at Rome that would dominate the world. The church does not and should not have secrets. It should be transparent to all believers who support it. Christianity has fragmented into many factions. So do you consider Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. to be false because they are not under control of the church located in Rome? I say if any church is hiding things from their followers, they should be exposed so all their followers are informed as to what is going on behind closed doors. Jesus had some very strong words for deception, as did Paul.

Overlord, are you that afraid of Christianity?

Peter also ASKED to be crucified upside down since MOST people saw the world backwards in his opinion. You would think Peter of all people would know frontwards from backwards, right from wrong, but no one listened to him. I understand his pain, because I see what he saw. I also understand why Elijah wanted to die.

The whole idea of a "Rapture" comes from a misunderstood out of context letter from Peter to a priest because the priest did not understand something.

Try and build a 4D+ "world" in theory or on a computer as a simulation and ANY scientist would LOVE one Grand Unified Theory of Everything. I question what kind of "scientist" would miss the importance and value of such a thing. Until you can build a 100% efficient universe, that includes gravity, quantum mechanics, electricity, heat, fusion, life, etc. I would STFU about if there is a God or not since you really do not know your a$$ from a hole in the ground. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT OUR UNIVERSE DESIGNED ITSELF OR HAPPENED BY RANDOM CHANCE, it was engineered. There is also the problem/issue of who or what added the energy/power that our universe contains. Someone had to start the oscillator that we are in.

You should be able to scale up from the smallest known particles (electrons and positrons), how they make atoms, how atoms make up molecules, etc. up to the largest, that being the universe itself. Be able to watch the universe expand from the smallest/Big Bang and the reach a maximum size where stars can no longer support fusion due to small size. Then watch as the universe collapses, matter begins to reform from energy, and another Big Bang happens. You should know why most things are round or tend to want to be round too. Until you can hold the universe in the palm of your hand you will never understand it or God. You then look at nature and all the living things, all the wonderful creations that God has made. The amazing engineering that has manifested itself through natural selection as living things cling precariously onto life here in the middle of nowhere. How they all interact with each other, it is amazing. There is no questions in my mind, I have to give credit to the Master Engineer, God. I/we could not design a better place/system.

"I mean come on, when you want to talk to someone far away do you pray or do you use technology? Science has proven time and time again to be true knowledge and religion has proven time and time again to be nonsense."

I wasn't aware that the church taught that prayer was a form of telepathy between humans. I do believe science has proven to bring knowledge and teach about how the universe works. However, you say religion has proven itself to be nonsense. Most religions other than Christianity, I'd agree with you. However, how has Christianity proven itself to be nonsense? Things such as scandals don't count because though they reflect badly on Christianity, it wasn't the majority going aloong with it, and scandals in and of themselves don't prove Christianity to be false.

BTW, I don't take all of the Bible literally, because I believe that some messages are being told through stories.

"It's God's Church, because it's the one and ONLY Church established personally by Jesus the Christ. So, the answer is it's God's Church, because Jesus said so."

There is one problem with this statement Michael. The church that Jesus wanted established, was not buildings of stone, but a church within each of us where the spirit lives. Man has taken what Jesus taught, and has twisted it for ego's sake.

"If you're educated in truth, you know... perhaps that's why many of you ask how it can be... you lack the truth.'

I wouldn't be telling others that they don't know what the truth is Michael. your walking a very fine line there yourself.

BW

I can't speak for Overlord, but for me, yes I am that scared of christianity. I find it terrifying that people with political and economic power believe that all people deserve judgment because two mythical dust people ate a fruit that a talking snake recommended to them. And that's only one of hundreds of ridiculous beliefs. It is absolutely terrifying.

Having said that, I also think it's terrifying that anyone would base real life decisions and morals on ancient myths and fairy tales, whether the stories are jewish or muslim or hindu or whatever.

Let me say this first...I was raised a Catholic...now let me ask you this...who said the Catholic Church was founded by God?...let me answer...the Catholics...but they can't prove it...they just "say so"... I stopped putting an envelope in the basket a long time ago...I'll answer to God and no one else.

ccmnxc

"However, you say religion has proven itself to be nonsense. Most religions other than Christianity, I'd agree with you. However, how has Christianity proven itself to be nonsense?"

See this is the problem with believing a religion- it is inherently prejudiced because any one religion claims that other religions are wrong, and all of the claims are based on nothing but strongly held opinions ("faith"). Can't you see that what you said about other religions is the same exact thing a hindu would say about islam or christianity? And that these opinions only matter on where you where born and who brought you up?

Saying your religion is the only true religion is like saying your language is the only one that can be used to communicate and everybody else is speaking gibberish.

Then you ask, where has christianity proven itself to be nonsense? Oh boy, where to begin. We'll skip past all the nonsense in the OT because that's just too easy. Let's get to the real point. The central claim of christianity is that the creator of the universe created a man and woman (out of dirt) who disregarded a mysterious rule and therefore ALL OF HUMANITY now carries this guilt. As if guilt can be inherited. WTF? And then the only way this guilt can be "payed back" is to have a man (who is also the creator) die in the same manner in which thousands of other Roman citizens were executed. And finally, the only way to get in the creator's good graces in the afterlife is to accept the fact that he is also his own son and chose to have himself killed (not really!), regardless of what you did in your life and who you raped or murdered.

This central concept of christianity is the very essence of nonsense.

Tired, the correct answer is we don't know yet but we will keep searching, not well we have no explanation for the origin of the big bang so god fits into that gap. Its a lot like the past when people thought the earth was the center of the universe before science evolved along with technology and thought. Science builds on itself with new information as new tech and info comes along. The explanation for the big bang in some eyes is, well all this stuff had to come from somewhere therefore there is a god. Maybe there is a god but I'm not going to assume there is just because it easier for the human brain to wrap its mind around and be the easiest and simplest explanation at the time, that's happened too much in history already. Design argument doesn't hold either you have to look at it sort of like how we impose human traits on pets if you understand where I'm going with this.

ccmnxc You totally missed the guys point way to take things out of context. You aren't alone most Christians don't take the bible seriously or even follow what can only amount to cherry picking even though before modern science they seemed to believe alot of the information. They will force it on others though. Whenever science proves something or the bible contradicts its always well its a metaphor etc in the bible, not to be take literally or its meant for a different time or people. Who decides what? Who decides to impose there take on the bible by law on the public and what version? What version of the many sects of christianity is correct, they all seem to think the others are doomed. By the definition as Jesus defined I have yet to meet or talk to a single christian its pretty clear what he wants. If you haven't been able to find info from the bible itself that christianty is false and the god that is worshipped is truly a childkilling, raping, mass murdering, war mongering, genocidal maniac you have not read your bible. Since god does not change the same laws in the past are true now. If the bible were true(everyword) and that god was proven I still would not worship it even under threat of torture which he is all about anymore than I would worship Hitler Stalin or anyone that endorses rape, slavery, murder, genocide, baby killing, race superiority, etc. I'm more moral than the god of the bible you should worship me.

"Judge not, that you be not judged." Take a course in church history. Who did your brainwashing?

BW, do you believe in the sins of the father? It seems so.

Michael has to be a troll. There's no way someone can be that dense...

Geez, I hate to beat a dead horse, yet you continue not answering the direct questions. You only talk around them. Where is the evidence that Peter was the first Pope? Not just that verse in the Bible. Please do show WHERE (besides writings and claims of the Catholic Church) it is stated in the Bible that Peter is the first Pope, thus proving that the Catholic Church was created directly by Jesus and that there is a direct link between Peter and the other Popes. Indeed, that verse you quoted can mean literally anything.

And, the world hates God's Church, just like the world hated Jesus.

Actually, I think most people rather like Jesus ... even atheists such as myself.

It's the Christians we can't stomach.

Michael, you are incorrect in what you wrote. The New Testament was written by several different men and not all the apostles taught the same "Gospel message." Hence there are 4 different Gospels in the New Testament. And history shows us that there were 5 different branches of the Catholic Church, with each patriarch being equal. However, the Roman Branch decided to make a power grab and declare their patriarch the one true leader of the church. Which caused a rift to form between it and the other branches. Some adopted the Pope as the true leader, while others, such as the Orthodox, did not.

Um dude, if you had proper education in the history and christianity, you would know the catholic church is based on lies. But I guess selective reading was your thing.

Michael, you understand these "truths" about the uniqueness and purity of the Roman church, backward and forward, based on your "proper background" of brainwashing in airtight Roman dogma.

Any church that seeks God through Jesus and the Scriptures is a mixture, including mine and other protestant churches, as well as yours; Jesus said in the parable to let the wheat and tares grow up together until the harvest.

Thus every church has some humble, Godly leaders and some self-seeking manipulators; every church has some doctrines that are pure, but no church is perfectly free of error; God won't grant any group a monopoly on truth, because then it would be their truth and not His;

Similarly, some churches can see and teach that Christ's church is larger than the boundaries of any one group; while others (I used to belong to one) claim themselves to be the only way, and point the dam*ing finger at all who won't fall in line, but perhaps none do so as egregiously as the Roman church does, claiming exclusively the infallibility that is rightfully God's alone, and wielding it as a weapon to silence those who dare disagree.

I could go on and on. The Roman church forbids its priests and nuns to be married, yet the New Testament is clear that Peter, "the first Pope", had a wife (1 Cor 9:5).

"Nevertheless, the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: The Lord knows those who are His" (2 Timothy 2:19). I rejoice when the dark secrets of a church (yours or mine) are brought to light, so that those of us whose single aim is "to gain Christ and be found in Him... having the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Phillipians 3:9) might escape the schemes of the manipulators. I see manipulators scurry every time the light shines on the Roman Catholic church. It's my prayer that you and many like you will find your way out.

Your history lesson is given with blinders. Go outside your small circle and take some real courses in church history. But, you say, "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."