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LCWR, Tony Gentile / Reuters, file
Sister Janet Mock, executive director of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR), is among a delegation meeting Cardinal William Joseph Levada on Tuesday.
ROME - What do American nuns do when they are accused of being radical feminists? They respond as radical feminists might: by challenging the male authority face-to-face.
Sister Pat Farrell, head of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR), the umbrella group that represents 80 percent of the U.S.'s 57,000 Catholic nuns, traveled to Rome to confront accusations that her organization promotes "radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith."
Farrell met American Cardinal William Levada, head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on Tuesday. The gathering was aimed at reconciling their differences, but it has the potential to permanently alienate many American nuns from the Holy See.
From the beginning, the meeting was fixing to be a titanic clash between strong-willed servants of God.
On one side next to Farrell sat Sister Janet Mock, the group’s executive director.
Opposite them, Cardinal Levada was joined by Vatican-appointed Archbishop Peter Sartain, who has been named to oversee the overhaul of the the LCWR. Sartain has been given the power to rewrite the group's statutes, its meeting agendas and liturgical texts.
US priests reportedly behind Vatican crackdown on nuns
Alessandro Speciale, the Vatican Correspondent for Religion News Service, said the discussions – held in private – were unlikely to have been amicable.
The Catholic Church accused the nation's largest organization of American nuns of espousing "radical feminist" ideas. MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell discusses the charges with Sister Jeannine Gramick, who was once silenced by the Vatican, and Jeff Stone, communications director of Dignity USA.
"It will (have been) a deaf argument," he told NBC News. "They will both try to force their message across, but it's unlikely to be a friendly chat."
Both sides emerged from Tuesday's meeting without giving much away.
Farrell told journalists outside the Vatican she had an "open dialogue" with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and found the support in America "very affirming."
Likewise, the Vatican did not go into much detail on the meeting's outcome, but said the gathering had happened in an "atmosphere of openness and cordiality."
Catholic nuns group 'stunned' by Vatican scolding for 'radical feminist' ideas
What is almost certain is that Farrell, a determined representative of thousands of American nuns, asked Levada to reconsider the damning assessment his office issued about her group. The report followed a two-year investigation into the nuns' outspoken social and political outreach, which has often differed from the Vatican's official position.
Tensions between the American nuns and the Vatican have been simmering for years, and stem from the open discussion among LCWR's members of sensitive issues such as gay marriage, contraception and on the ordination of women.
On April 18, the Vatican harshly criticized the group, and accused it in a statement of perpetuating "a distorted ecclesiological vision, and (having) scant regard for the role of the Magisterium as the guarantor of the authentic interpretation of the Church's Faith."
Magisterium, the official teaching authority of the Catholic Church, is made-up of the pope and bishops. Ecclesiological refers to the nature and functions of the church.
Catholic heavyweights challenge Obama rule on contraception
In his first ever Twitter message, Pope Benedict XVI announced a new online portal that aggregates the Vatican's various media on one website. The Tweet from the pope was sent from and ipad.
The Vatican then appointed a trio of bishops to deal with the differences with the LCWR.
The LCWR's official response came more than a month later, but it was just as strong-worded.
The nuns said that the Vatican's charges are based "on unsubstantiated accusations and the result of a flawed process that lacked transparency. Moreover, the sanctions imposed were disproportionate to the concerns raised and could compromise their ability to fulfill their mission. The report has furthermore caused scandal and pain throughout the church community, and created greater polarization."
Whatever happened behind closed doors at the Vatican on Tuesday, the meeting will eventually help the world's estimated 1.2 billion Catholics understand whether the Vatican and the American nuns can reach a compromise – or, as seems more likely, remain poles apart.
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I haven't read or even remember hearing a story about nuns raping little girls. It's obvious who's morals and values are in the right place. Who would you trust with your child's welfare, a priest or a nun?
Nov 10, 2006 Catholic Nuns convicted of Genocide in Rwanda, sentenced to 30 years in prison. Were captured when the pilot the Vatican hired to smuggle them out of the country notified the authorities. So yes Cathloic Nuns have done their share too!
You go girls! Nuns rock!
kook nuns join another church... their are plenty of leftist denominations that you could be members of...
the nuns have not been too important to the catholic faith since the school teaching years have passed.
While we do still cherish our nuns, and anyone who has dedicated their lives to God and His people, to be honest the impact of the nuns leaving the Roman Catholic church would not be as great as everyone thinks it would be. Those who are still around do make an impact; but it is no longer the case that the nuns make up most of the teachers at schools, or workers at hospitals, etc... My parish school hasn't had a nun teaching in over 15 years; our parish only has one nun on staff, as the director of social ministries. The last Catholic hospital in Pittsburgh sold out to the big conglomorate a few years ago, and at that time there were only a handful of nurses serving in administerial positions. I'm sure here and there are examples where nuns make up all or most of the staff, but those are the exceptions unfortunately. I do hope for a resurgence in nuns, all consecrated lives for that matter; but this current argument won't help draw in more young women.
"I do hope for a resurgence in nuns, all consecrated lives for that matter; but this current argument won't help draw in more young women."
Actually, young women ARE becoming nuns, and the current argument has nothing to do with it. Radical or liberal orders of sisters have been dwindling in numbers for years, as they mainly espouse involvement in social concerns or action, which anyone can be engaged in, nun or not. The sisters in my home town for example, gave up their habits, moved out of the convent, took an apartment, took lay jobs, got involved with social causes, wore makeup, smoked, etc. There is nothing wrong with any of this, but one can live like this as a lay woman. We now have no nuns in my home town.
The orders that are growing fastest today are traditional orders. The sisters wear habits of some sort, which promote a sense of community, and their focus is on spiritual life, community life, contemplation, etc., FIRST. For them, the social implications of the Gospels, and action regarding them, proceed FROM all of that. Many people today are starved for the experience of the mystical and the transcendent. Traditional orders facilitate this, and "traditional" doesn't necessarily mean "Latin Mass", or that traditional nuns don't favor a larger role for women in the Church. The focus of these sisters is on the spiritual, and that is what nuns historically were always about.
Yeah get rid of the Nuns!!! The ones who truly care about the people of the world. I would rather a nun give me religious teaching than some priest trying to dabble me with his holy staff.
The Nuns serve the poor...the Priest serve themselves
There may be isolated cases of what you say, but I hope and pray it is the exception. I'm a lifelong Catholic, do a lot of volunteer work and such; every priest I have ever met has totally dedicated himself to God and the people of God. None of them was on an ego trip, and they certainly are not in it for the money or fame or prestige.
Its good that you haven't met any self-serving priests, pittsburghboy. I on the other hand met the infamous pedophile Rudy Kos when I was a youngster, living in Dallas. Seemed like a pretty normal, hip dude with his leather jacket. My mom was too smart and forbade us to be alter servers for him. It seemed she could smell a pedophile a mile away. I also knew a Father Dugan, who posted plaques of Disney characters all over the church lawn. He put Mickey, Minnie, and Donald Duck all in the nativity scene. Also, there's a Frank Quesada here in Colorado Springs, who encourages, nay, expects parishoners to kiss him on his ring finger. In short, maybe you should get out more. But yes, that's not all priests. My uncle, who was a monsignor up in PA was truly a servant of the people. Literally hundreds came to his funeral to pay their respects.
You go girls !!!
How do we know exactly what went on at this meeting? This article is all conjecture - leading to further gossip, argumentation, and more posts ($$) - until we get the real and whole news. We ALL, pope included, love our nuns and all that they do and the times they have spoken up for others when needed (sometimes to the ire of their pastor lol), but this is one of the times that they are off base. WE can love the sinner but not the sin - unfortunately they have gotten to the point of also endorsing the sin, it seems. The nuns, no matter what country they are from, are not a seperate organization any more than your department at work is seperate from the goals and purposes of your company as a whole. They will end up losing a bit of control of their group because they've shown they have gone off course, and their papers will be reworked. It happens.
Do you love all the pedophile priest? It seems that this in no way bothers Catholics. They just keep handing money over hand over fist to keep them jets going to shuffle all their good boys around.
No Catholic loves the sin that some priests committed, but we are all called to love the sinner, as God commanded, and pray for their conversion. And you know it is not all priests but a small percentage. Sadly, there are similiar sins committed in the schools (how about Penn State with the police and judges even implicated in cover up), and even sadder, in families predominately. It is everywhere that children congregate. So, the Catholic church has instituted probably one of the best, if not the best, church-wide training programs for all clergy, religious, children of all ages in classes, staff, ministries, volunteers, etc. to detect and how to report any form of abuse. P.S. I'm sorry but I didn't mean to give you a thumbs up - I thought the check represented I disagreed.
LMAO - whoever thinks that the Catholic clergy are a democracy is out of their friggin minds. The Pope will take a position and the nuns will salute or get excommunicated. Period. There is no voting, no debating, no real revolution here. While there are women's rights for non-clergy, there is no such parallel inside the church. They gave that all up when they took those vows. So - Penguins unite - doesn't matter - your choice will be to stay and tow the mark, or go and leave the nunnery. My guess is that they will stay and go underground as most have never thought of a resume, or how to market themselves into the workforce should they require it. Captured and indentured slaves - that's about the size of it. This is where other religions are borne by the way - a big defection by a disgruntled sub culture. Good luck to the nuns, good luck to the church, I frankly left this kind of dogmatic crap behind decades ago. While I'm not a bible toter, I do know that the God is not about churches and dogma. I say put them all back into penguin suits, make them plow the fields and teach the children and pay them nothing but subsistence!!! Better yet - let's bring back the Inquisition!! This could get VERY interesting - no?? Lol! Bunch of sabre rattlers with no leverage.
the vatican is famous with double standards....
The vatican itself, dripping with pornographic images of nudes.
The vatican collection, even more erotic art (enough to be considered hoarders!)
Telling the people taht premarital sex and other amusements will bring us closer to hell, meanwhile catholic priests who are found molesting children are NOT prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law....
the list can keep going, but this just goes to show that the church needs to be SHUT DOWN. They should not be allowed to go tax free and call any shots!
It is sad to see an organization with so much power and the ability to achieve so much good act like an aging dictator. Cardinal Levada (or the pope for that matter) reminds me of Humphrey Bogart in Caine Mutiny playing with the ball bearings and mindlessly repeating "I'm still the Captain ...".
The Vatican boys need to recognize the reality: they blew it.
Reform in the church is now absolutely necessary.
Remember Martin Luther?
His spirit is coming back to assist.
Martin Luther is not in a very good place right now and yes the church does need to reform, to it's traditional roots and not the compromising with evil modernist agenda.
Joey, our faith teaches us that we don't know where someone is, there is only one Judge. But, yes, we need to stay close to our traditional roots - right back to Jesus and the apostles/first popes - and not compromise with the insidious modernist agenda.
just curious, by "evil modernist agenda" are you referring to social justice and women's equality?
Martin Luther said that reason and intellect were enemies of faith, which must be utterly crushed and destroyed. Luther reformed nothing, and when the "reformation" was done, the new captains of the ship looked and acted an awful lot like the old ones. There were Protestant inquisitions too.
Meg, he's referring to sin - like abortion, contraception, etc. The Church is one of the strongest and oldest proponents of social justice around. Did you know women have many many positions of great authority in the church? But, the priesthood, as instituted by Christ, is male. Christ was male = and the priest is a sign of Christ, therefore priests are male. Look it up in the catechism of the Catholic church (online) for greater understanding: it is beautiful. And we only want to do as Jesus did and commanded - so no matter what modern world tells the Catholics what they should do, we stick to our Jesus our Lord our All. And Nik, Faith is not opposed to Reason. Read up on some of the gret theologians of the Church. And Pople Benedict said, "Authentic Christian faith does not limit human liberty and reason, he said. Instead, "faith supports reason and perfection; and reason, illuminated by faith, finds strength to raise itself to the knowledge of God."
I bet Jesus Christ himself is probably extremely ashamed, saddened and upset that the "church" continues to drag his name through the dirt.
So the boys in the Vatican who handled the priest sexual abuse scandal so well want to publicly take on the only part of the church (the nuns) not subject to recent disgrace or ridicule. Brilliant! Go nuns, they are the people who actually do the work the church still has a good reputation for (schools, hospitals, assistance to the poor). Time for a serious house cleaning in Rome.
Diversion tactics. You'll notice this is back in the news shortly after the "butler scandal"?
i bet Jesus wouldn't want to be catholic!
People need to realize. These women made a vow of obedience, not to a priest, bishope, cardinal, or Pope, but to God alone. Good works or not, if they disobey the Pope, they disobey God. Fact. Girl power or selfishness. A nun puts God first and these actions do no such thing. Yes, love the sinner but teach to sin no more.
After becoming highly educated in theology, these smart women realize that they ARE being obedient to God, Social justice, including allowing women to reach their FULL HUMAN POTENTIAL is Gods will. They see through the distortion and corruption of the power-hungry male hierarchy and are merely following their conscience. God bless them!
If you were educated in theology, you would know these Nuns are being disobedient. Loving a sinner is good but you cannot approve of their love of evil. They ARE NOT being obedient to God if they disobey, the pope or their surperior. At what point is the church stoping these women from reaching their full potential?
People make this about power but it's not, it's really simple. If you choose this life, which no one will force on you, you must make the choice to follow these rules. Teaching actions that are not in line with God's Church is a direct disobedience to God.
"If you were educated in theology"
you do not know anything about my education - how pretentious!
The pope is not God. If you think he is you are creating a false idol, breaking the very first commandment.
The rules of the church institution are not Gods rules, they were created by men who cherry-picked scripture for their own empowerment.
Joey, they made a vow to serve god, this they can do without the orders of pedophiles.
Ok .... lets go with this Theological exposee
Regretably you are not so in theology cool it a little.
No .... they disagreee, wholey different if you actually understand Catholicism and the place of its three main Pillars, The Vatican, The Catholic Church, and Catholics. Anyone throughout History has disagreed with another in the triumverate concerning Doctrine - even causing the Great Schism of the 14th Century
Right now, becauses a power clique within The Vatican continues its struggle against Vatican II. Its the latter that the LCWR are fully in tune with in their actions, not these dinosaurs inside The Vatican who still hate the idea of Vatican II - so who is disobeying The Pope now? The current Pope was actually one of the Vatican Staff in the 60's who framed Vatican II, so you want more twists and turns, wrap your brain around that one :)
That is exactly why the LCWR are fighting, they are following the spirit and letter of Vatican II which is official Catholic Doctrine - so again - who is "disobeying god" ?
It sure isnt the LCWR who currently follow Catholic Doctrine espoused by Vatican II.
So by your logic The Vatican is disobeying God - good luck with that :)
Joey, the problem for non Catholic posters is that they do not understand - as it's so deep and requires a lot to grasp - that although the Pope is not God (Catholics of course don't believe that) you are so right in that in that Christ gave "all power' to Peter, the first pope. And that Christ gave him the keys to the Kingdom. The nuns made a vow before God to be obedient to their faith.
A lot of errors were made - and are still being made - in the 'spirit' of Vatican II: by poor interpretation of the documents and by bowing to secular pressures - caving in on the basics of the faith. This is a time of correction as to misunderstandings. Perhaps the pendulum might swing a little too far, but it is a correction to 'Mass confusion."
What if the current Pope is the wrong man for the job? What if he came out and told his people to do things that were clearly against the word of the Bible? Would those who did not follow him be disobeying the Christian god or would they be disobeying a man who is clearly not on the same path? This is the issue many people have with the idea that to disobey the Pope is to disobey the god.
The head of the church is Jesus then the elders. The point is this if the nuns are adhering to the teachings of Jesus which is the head of the church then why bother. The Vatican has been known throughout history to control everything from politics , industry and other aspects that they are so behind in what our modern and third world countries in in what they really need. Its time to look at what old covenant , and old distorted doctrines need bumping out because not everyone is a saved Jew or gentile in the church there are so many different life experiences and backgrounds that not all strict adhere teaching can help the lost sheep who really want or need help. This also includes strict dress codes and other idol worship ( saint worship and prayer -- Remember I am the Lord your God Only - I and the Father Are One -words or God and HIs Son. that should not even be in the catholic church Christ 1st then elders if the elders follow HIM ( GOD).
Wrong, God does not change. Nor should our love and adoration. Can a sinner still love God and sin? Jesus said "You cannot serve two masters". The church ask women and men to dress respectful in church not for the priest or the family or other people but for God only. You don't like to cover your hair because it's not modern. Men don't wear hats out of respect aswell, should that change also. Remeber also these changes are selfish and putting ourself first before God.
As for our saints, to whom we pray. what is prayer? Prayer simply means "asking", we ask for those saints that are already with God to ask for us, as we are not worthy. If your mother won the lottery and I don't know her, but got you to ask for me, how much more of a chance do i have in getting a loan if someone she loves very much is asking? Probably better than if I asked myself.
We worship God alone. It is a common misconception that Catholics worship saints or Mary: we give them their due veneration and respect, but we do not worship them. Joey is on the right track, prayer is not what most people think it is: but in the Catholic church it is many things, but it is primarily speaking to God 'from the heart.' We speak one on one with God in prayer. We worship Him, we adore Him, praise Him, petition Him Thank Him, etc. And when we pray to the saints, we are talking to them, and asking them to pray for us - just as you and I can pray for each other. But, there is so much and such deep and ancient theology there, it is understandable that an outsider - and even some in the church - might misunderstand it. Why don't you ask or check out the catechism of the catholic church - it's even online - and it's absolutely beautiful and fully referenced.
The living God IS not fixed in time and is supposed to change for the times to be relevant for people. BTW what the heck does wearing a hat or not have to do with respect for God. Talk about living in the dark ages!!
Oops, Meg, sorry - I didn't mean to give you a thumbs up - I thought the check meant thumbs down (I'm used to another board). Scripture says God does not change, Meg - Joey is right. And it's hard to believe that you can't see that wearing a hat at times, or taking a hat off at times (dinnertable?), or opening a door for someone shows respect, as do other gestures - such as talking respectfully to someone you might disagree with or just misunderstand.
Greg, Michelangelo's Adam is nude when created (just as you and I were also created). All the art is religious and by the great masters to lead and teach the faith those days. Raphael, Leonardo, Rembrant, etc. - amazingly inspirational and uplifting. Also, your statements about priests not being fully prosecuted is also not true. IT seems you doth protest too much - am praying for you.
The male hierarchy look like schoolyard bullies selfishly keeping all the (underserved) power & privilege for themselves. I am sorry I ever gave this church a penny. Never again!
So that is what you want, Meg: power and privilege?
The RCC is facing their own end and seem to be hurrying it along with nonsensical actions like this.
They probably truly believe that by trying to divert attention to these 'renegade nuns,' that people will forget about the real problems the church should be dealing with, not trying to deny and ignore.
Or rather, it is that the media, by putting stories like this and the silly butler story are the ones diverting attention from the Fortnight of Freedom coming up and the 43 lawsuits placed by Catholic hospitals, universities, welfare agencies, etc., to protect Freedom of Religion - and they are joined in their concern for our Constitutional rights by other faith communities.
.
I am sooo upset that the Vatican is enabling Jews and Illuminati to interfere with Catholics-I am a UN Peacekeeper/U.S. Government agent/Wright Brothers relative with a High International Court Order to remove spy equip Crimes against humanity Bush adm. and I am Blood Related to Pease/Grace and King Charlemagne-The people that are causing these problems are Klaas's genetically engineered jews-clones from the jews they did genocide to-meaning their genetics are chemically defective, and they are programmed against Catholics-I do surveillance everyday-and I want ours to stop attacking each other-We have ICC court orders, and I have a additional pending case, we have already closed Beach craft and some of the other ones that were so illegally infiltrated with jews that we just close the corp. reset it, put additional protections in it and hid it-all they want to do ,is break into something and toucher, kidnap and kill Catholics-if some of those old Bishops are Nazis-all we have to do is find the soul it does belong to and have them reset it and UN will melt their space equip. lets get this straightened out
WOW!!!
the Bible is unequivocal in its condemnation of homosexual behavior.
Moses was a prophet and was told this by Jehovah about male homosexual behavior. Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13
Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill. Mt 5:17
Jesus said the only context of marriage was between a man and woman. Mt 19:4-6
Jesus condemned all other sexual behavior outside of marriage. Mt 15:18-19 Mark 7:20-23.
Jesus advocated the death penalty for those who dishonored their father and mother. Mt 15:4
Homosexual behavior is unnatural and by definition degenerate behavior, in no way possible approved of in the Bible, but instead unequivocally condemned.
<And He answered and said unto them,
Have ye not read, that He that made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said,
`For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh'?>
Jesus Mt 19:4-5
I'm sure the good sister has taken a vow of obedience and will recant her writings when told to do so. Or else she'll have to leave the church. Near every U.S. election, the vatican raises doctrinal issues over peoples private parts. They imply that sins are committed if votes are given to canidates who do not share their views on the pudendum. What the hell if their favored candidates lead us to war, to depression, to economic misery. Keeping your hands off your ya ya is most important.
Pinto, not sure about your choice but I've always been told; these men are politicians and they will tell you what you want to hear. It doesn't matter who you vote for, choose the lesser of two evils. That's all one can do. However, voting for someone who believes killing children is acceptable is probably not ok..
Good to see the Vatican being exposed for what it is.
Any religion that refuses to see women as equals needs to go. Requiring priests to be abstinent is the MAIN reason there are so many sex scandals in the Catholic church. In large part, abstinence goes against human nature, opening the door to deviant "posers" wanting to gain access to vulnerable and trusting boys AND girls. Duh. Besides, what's so horribly wrong with female priests or those who are married and devoted to their families? The Vatican needs to come out of the dark ages.
The somewhat office stance I've found states that by not marrying and being "pure", a priest is elevated above the average person in their connection with god or some such thing. I've also heard it theorized that if a priest were to marry, he'd need an income capable of supporting a family and upon his death all possessions would revert to his wife and children rather than the church.
Currently, upon his death, all his personal belongings revert to his family and loves ones (sisters, brothers, parents, etc.), as well. So that theory holds no water. It is actually based on Scripture.
Marriage is a distraction. No one is saying that women are not equal to any man, however in the church per the bible a woman is not allowed to speak (not less, or men better). Jesus had 12 deciples, of which non were women, are you saying that Jesus was better than women. This would be a sin, if Jesus did think that but as he knew not sin, there must be another explaination. As for marriage non of the desciple were married, except Peter, which he only returned to help his mother in law. Jesus said "If you cannot leave you mother, father, brother, sister, wife, children to follow me, then this life is not for you".
Man: Father, my wife is dying and she needs her last rights can you meet us at this hospital. They have not given her much time.
Priest: Sorry but wife are in this other hospital having a child. I will there a soon as the baby is born, and no complications arrive.
Distraction: A non married man's first duty is to God. A married man's first duty to God is his wife.
Joey, everything you said is solid, and your example of what could happen if what a priest married is great! But I don't understand what you are saying about women not talking in the Church: we talk plenty lol!
Man: Father, my wife is dying and she needs her last rights can you meet us at this hospital. They have not given her much time.
Priest: sorry, but the alter boy is here.
Joey, you do know that some pretty overwhelming evidence has emerged that in the beginning of Christianity women were not only considered equals but that god had a wife? And that she was worshipped equally alongside her mate? Not to mention evidence that she was edited out of the Bible?
Terrible example - in fact self defeating.
A Priests first duty is to his flock, especially giving the last rights - you know it as well, the theology behind last rights is so compelling, that any Priest who followed your example and gave preference to "his wife" (your anaology not mine) who was already safe under proper medial care, over others needing Last Rights, he would be hauled in front of the Archbishop and given a stern warning that his first duty is to his Faith.
Such as any Professional Military, Police, Fire, Doctor etc who get called at very short notice to carry out their duty, at times a dangerous one.
"Stop the War, its my right to be at my childs birth" said the military officer ...... yea right, in your dreams.
You need to join the real world not wallow in Catholic theory. Live by it, no problem, have faith in it no problem - but do not distort it and twist it to suit your idea of what it should be.
All the Nuns did was follow official doctrine, Vatican II - you want to rewrite it - when's your excommunication due?
the catholic church is the devil...stupid brainwashing, thought controlling, child molesting freaks
i get on my knees to no one. learn to think for yourself. religion kills millions every year
The vatican and its male dominated vodoo religion are so far out of touch with the rest of the world, it makes one wonder how this hypocritical organization continues to exist.
The only reason this gaggle of male dominated religious freaks continues to exist is because of the good work the nuns do for it.
They should split off from this farce of an organization and start a church of their own, where only women are allowed to run it.
Amen to that. No pun intended.