I think that anyone who believes the worst days of the "Arab Spring" (aka Islamist's Uprising) are behind us, is sadly mistaken...the only "outcome" that will be tolerated, is full control and compliance

I hope the Egyptian people do not passively accept this bull @!$%#.

Don't worry, they wont...not until the Army Leadership is replaced with Mullahs

And after all that, the Egyptian Military dissolves Parliament, assigns Constitution writing Committee, lets Egyptians have their silly little President Election....and Nothing has changed...The Military still rules Egypt...The New Egyptian President will have even less power than the Queen of England....

Muslim Brotherhood's of the World Unite...It's not just a slogan anymore, it's the way we're going to have to do our work ---- Andy Stern, SEIU

.....oh wait, that was about workers of the world...Pfffft.

I guess all that Organizing the International Unions did for the Arab Spring was all for Naught...And Mubarak would still be just about almost dead if Egyptians did nothing at all.

There is no way that the military will ever cede control to the Muslim Brotherhood. As much as I favor a democratically elected leader, when you have an electorate that is so naive and uneducated that they would elected the likes of the MB to lead them, you really have to question if democracy is the right thing for that country. I think that for the time being, a relatively benign dictatorship run by the military is a far better option than letting the MB gain control.

how would you know? You live there?

The worst is yet to come. Mark my words.

far right Islamic? what in the world do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is?

There is no way that the military will ever cede control to the Muslim Brotherhood. As much as I favor a democratically elected leader, when you have an electorate that is so naive and uneducated that they would elected the likes of the MB to lead them, you really have to question if democracy is the right thing for that country. I think that for the time being, a relatively benign dictatorship run by the military is a far better option than letting the MB gain control.

So you approve of democratic elections except when you disagree with who the people democratically elect?

If you look at the candidates, it takes no brainer to see who will win. An Islamist that dominant over the region or a official from old regime. It's like telling them to vote for someone in advance.

Is my spelling correct ..... R e v o l u t i o n ?

The military will not let the MB rule the country and the MB will not let the military rule the country.

Expect violence to again raise it's ugly head.

I believe the Muslim Brotherhood has gotten a bad name. From all accounts, the MB appears to have matured into a conservative party with religious overtones--kind of like the Far Christian Right in this country.

Clearly the military is unhappy with the recent turn of events. If their boy Shafiq had been elected, then rule would be retained--Mubarak 2--and the military continues to make money.

The people of Egypt are not stupid. They had a choice to go back to Mubarak and the corrupt military or try something else. Just because they make a choice you disagree with does not make them stupid.

The only thing worse than the mubarak dictatorship would be any kind of muslim dictatorship. Muslims have only one goal, drive a perfectly good country into the dark ages with hatred of other religions, denigration of women, a total denial of the value of education and a hate filled, backward ideology that demonstrates to the entire world the abject failure of this hideous muslim culture.

As much as I favor a democratically elected leader, when you have an electorate that is so naive and uneducated that they would elected the likes of the MB to lead them, you really have to question if democracy is the right thing for that country.

The same could be said for America...

The people elected the government! They didn't elect the military. They had no say when the military suddenly changed the rules. It is bull @!$%#. And you are standing up for bull @!$%#. People should be free to choose their own leaders, not have some unelected military officials control the country. Did you even happen to read this part of the article?

In a victory speech at his campaign headquarters, Morsi clearly sought to assuage the fears of the large sector of Egyptians that the Brotherhood will try to impose stricter provisions of Islamic law.

"Thank God, who guided the people of Egypt to this right path, the path of freedom and democracy," the bearded, 60-year-old U.S.-educated engineer declared. He promised to "to Egypt in all its factions, Muslims and Christians" to "be a president for all Egyptians ... a servant to them" and seek a "civil, democratic, constitutional and modern state." He mentioned churches and Christians several times and hardly mentioned Islam or Muslims.

Besides, you complain that the people of Egypt were naive in choosing the Muslim Brotherhood, but they only had two real choices! It was either them or a guy from the old regime. They just went with the Brotherhood because that was the only other real choice they had.

The majority of people voted for the Brotherhood, so that is what they wanted. Military control means that Egyptians no longer run their nation, but DC does, and more directly Western financial interests. That is what happened with Libya, and that is the goal with Syria, and Iran, who has threatened these interests. The whole democracy thing is pure bunk. It is created to give a humantiarian blanket to what they are doing. Libya and Syria are no means any threat to the US. The CIA funded the Libyan rebels and is doingthesame with Syria. We stirred up a hornet's nest that would not have been stirred up otherwise. With Syria gone, an Iranian ally is gone, one of the last non Western dominated centrel banks is gone, and one of Israel's main enemies is gone.

BlueBurner......".....From all accounts, the MB appears to have matured into a conservative party with religious overtones......"

That is exactly the Muslim Brotherhood's propaganda to get their feet into the doors of POWER. "We are NOT bad folks, but just wait until we get POWER over you."

And, your comment about the "Far Christian Right in this country" cannot be compared to the Muslim Brotherhood and their agenda.

Yes voting is great. Yes election results should be what the people want. What if a bunch of crazy uneducated people vote for a group that will put bombs on their chests and send them somewhere to do "Gods Bidding?" Does that put this into perspective? If it doesnt, you must feel very safe in your little condo. I really dont care how the world ends up at this point, but I like to speak clearly with no emotion. Good luck to us all.

Also... Obama and Romney are turds. I dont need people needing votes to sway my feelings. It is quite clear.

Far Christian Right is far worse ldo. They are the biggest warmongers around. They want to kill Muslims by the millions so they get to get whisked away to la la land without having to experience death. Instead of showing these people why Christianity is superior, you want to show an ugly side that has nothing to do with Christianity. At least the muslims are honest about what they are about.

WTF, who's idea was this?

Better the military than the Islamists. There is more to democracy than the mechanics of an election. True democracy respects freedom of speech , press, religion , separation of church and state , equal rights for women. The Islamists in Egypt would deny all these fundamental rights of a true democracy. Intolerance and inequality will prevail if Islam is allowed to rule the government.

Robert Bruce70

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/17/12270842-military-guards-egypt-power-as-islamists-claim-victory

In comments said:

"loose whores like the average American woman"

So much for Democracy. Now for the civil war to begin.

Not all folks want their women to end up to be loose whores like the average American woman

Yes, Robert Bruce shows his true colors at the end of his post.

Madonna planning show in Cairo to celebrate Egypt elections

The US constitution established a Republic not a democracy.

Well, the Islamist in the White House must be pleased.

The only hope for Egypt at this point is their military. Without the millitary, Egypt will be a fundamentalist Islamist theocracy in the blink of an eye. To all the naysayers who insist that just because we may not agree with the results of this election, the resulting government will still be a democratic one, will a newly formed MB government truly be democratic? They have made their position well known that if elected to power, there will be a return to Islamic rule. We have seen basic human rights, the will of the people, and freedoms done away with in countries that have adopted this form of "democracy". The same thing happened in Iran in the '70's, there were demonstrations in the street, a political upheavel, the ayatollahs came out of exile, the end result is clear for all who wish to see. Remember back to a few years ago in Iran when there were protests of fraudulent voting results the protests were immediately supressed by the government. Is that the type of democracy the Egyptian people want, or are they trading one form of supressive government for another. In a perfect world, the MB nor the military would not be a choice, however, at this time, these are the only choice Egyptians have, and the hard question to ask is which is the lesser of two evils. If the MB gains control, they will never reliquish power. If the military maintains power, there is a chance that Egypt may evolve into a democracy.

@Robert Bruce: Could you please cite examples of the far right Christian warmongers who wish to kill the Muslims and be immediately whisked away to la la land? Who exactly is it that needs to prove that Christianity is a "superior" religion? As a Christian woman, I find your comments unfounded to say the least.

The Egyptian people will just have to have another free election, and maybe another, till they get it right.

If the MB gains control, they will never reliquish power. If the military maintains power, there is a chance that Egypt may evolve into a democracy.

Yes, if the democratically elected MB gain control they won't relinquish control. But if the unelected military, who have seemingly taken control of the country, if they remain in power Egypt will know democracy. Your statement is a contradiction. The Egypt people have expressed a desire for a more open, less religiously controlled society. I don't think that the MB would be able to easily remain in power if they started trying to put in strict religious laws. The Egyptians should just run the risk with the MB and see how it goes. If it does not work they can always vote them out or have another revolution. Those seem safer than leaving the freaking military in charge

The scary thing was that they were to write a constitution after the MB got into power. So they could create a constitution that kept them in power forever. They could have created a constitution like Iran where the mullahs control everything.

They should really create a modern constitution that has freedom of speech and equal rights for all, and then think about having the elections.

Can't help but wonder if Obama will quietly "celebrate" if the MB candidate is the official winner. I'm afraid he will, and that tells me all I need to know.

@Satanick: Do you actually think that if the MB gains control, they will not impose religious rule on the Egyptians? And if the Egyptians will be able to vote them out of power if they choose? Look at Iran. Same thing will happen in Egypt. MB will never relinquish control. My statement is not contradictory, you cannot see the forest for the trees.

The problem is that there was no "Government in Exile" set up when the protests began. The people were either pro-government, fighters, or neutral. The MB was neutral and so was able to put themselves in front of the people as THE sourse of food, medicine, and other services while the country fell apart. The MB set up a political machine while everyone else was getting killed for their freedom. Of course there was only the MB and a holdover from the old regime. Nobody else thought of a political establishment.

In a way the people did chose the Military. The military is the one they ran to during the revolution. Sure the military promised to give them power back once all was said and done, and they're the ones who believed it out of desperation. Even though deep down they knew it was a lie.

They chose the military, the military is in power and they're not likely gonna give it up any time soon.

@Satanick: Do you actually think that if the MB gains control, they will not impose religious rule on the Egyptians? And if the Egyptians will be able to vote them out of power if they choose? Look at Iran. Same thing will happen in Egypt. MB will never relinquish control. My statement is not contradictory, you cannot see the forest for the trees.

I addressed this in my last post. I said that in the event that MB imposes religious rule, and makes it so they can't be voted out, the Egyptians could still overthrow the government. If the military gains control I am not so sure that overthrowing the government would be an option. We have seen the Egyptian military making progressively larger power grabs so I don't think they will want to relinquish power either. Basically I am saying that I think it would be easier for Egypt to 'retry' if the MB is put in control vs. military rule. I could be wrong though

@satanic...

The Islamists don't work that way. It is a control system based on the local mosque. The mosque carries out the wishes of the mulah at the top. The members of the radical mosques patrol the streets to make sure everybody follows the dictates of their interpretation of the faith. That includes intimidation and forced compliance. Once in power, there can be no internal organizing to dissent. If the Islamists gain power it is a one-way street to the same dead end as the Taliban. As long as the military does not allow a theocracy there is a chance for a democracy, but not with a democraticly elected Islamist government.

On another note, as noted in another post, the Constitution must be written by a group that will not be the government. That constitution must be agreed upon by the people through a free vote or by the peoples representatives. The people can then have a free election under that constitution knowing that the constitution is not written in the intrests of the candidates. There must be a constitution before there is a government.

@Satanick: As I stated, in a perfect world neither the military nor the MB would be choices, they are polar opposites and both represent extreme political viewpoints. One faction will hold into power, and what it comes down to is which is the lesser of two evils? Fundamentalist Islamic theocracy or Military Regime? I think the military is the more moderate of the two, and hopefully will allow Egypt to eventually become a democracy. The changes to the constitution by the military was in anticipation of an MB victory, thus preventing a resulting theocracy, not a permanent power grab. I could be wrong also, only time will tell. Lets hope the result isn't another unstable theocracy in that region.

It doesn't matter who they elect because only until the entire culture changes will there be better options for leadership. And that isn't going to happen unless religious fanaticism is replaced with individual rights (including women).

It's like complaining that nothing is being done about the starving children in Africa when the reality is that maybe, just maybe, people should consider not having children until the population is equal to or lesser than what the land can provide in food.

Is my spelling correct ..... R e v o l u t i o n ?

The military will not let the MB rule the country and the MB will not let the military rule the country.

Expect violence to again raise it's ugly head.

As long as we stay out of it, I could not care less. A "grave setback for democracy ???" These cretins wouldn't know democracy if it bit them in their a$$es. Islamofascist rule and violence are all they know about anyhow.

The Muslim Brotherhood showed just how much they respect democracy when the MB controlled parliament passed a law saying that anyone from the old Mubarak regime could not hold office in the new government. It was the passing of this law that would ave removed Shafiq from the run off election that prompted the Egyptian courts to finally say enough and disband the parliament. The MB only wants democracy when they can control who is allowed to run, and therefor who is allowed to win. This is not democracy. It should be pointed out that this dissolution of the parliament as one by the Egyptian high court and not by the military, the military has just been the one o enforce the order. The military has taken action to limit the power of the presidency for fear of the Islamists gaining control. You may not agree with this, but I fear that if the Islamists gained control the situation would be far worse.

For those who think that the elections should have been allowed to stand and that he MB is not as bad as they are being made out to be, I suggest you do some reading. Here are just a few examples of the changes that were occurring under the control of parliament by the MB:

- They indicated that they were planning on abrogating the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel, thus threatening renewed hostilities between the two nations.
- There has been increasing intolerance of those who are not devout Muslims. Coptic Christians, as well as other religious minorities, have been facing increasing persecution by unofficial Muslim religious militias being organized covertly by the MB to enforce their version of the Islamic faith and to ensure an Islamic society.
- The MB announced that there would be a return of the barbaric practice of forced female genital mutilation, which had been outlawed by Mubarak.
- Women were being informed that they would no longer be allowed out of their homes unless they were escorted by a male relative.
- Girls were being told that they would no longer be allowed to go to school.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. Under the MB there would be considerable reductions in current social and religious freedoms that have existed in Egypt for decades under Mubarak's government. The rights of women would be set back hundreds of years under the rule of the MB. Anyone who thinks that this is not so bad, or even remotely acceptable needs to go move to one the Middle East's Islamic republics because they do not belong living in a free society.

As much as it would be great to see a functioning, free democracy in Egypt, that was not going to happen under the rule of the MB. Once in power the MB would quickly move to consolidate that power through the drafting of an Islamist, Sharia Law based constitution and by placing severe restrictions on who would be eligible to run in any future elections. For now, a relatively benign, secular dictatorship controlled by the military is probably the best we can hope for in Egypt. The majority of people of Egypt just do not appear to understand the threat to their basic freedoms that the MB represents. Democracy only works when you have an electorate that is literate and has at least a some minimum level of education in order to be able to make informed choices that truly represent their best interests and the best interests of the country as a whole.

"It raised a question of how, even if a civilian head of state is sworn in this week, Tantawi can claim to have met his own deadline of July 1 for relinquishing control -- a deadline the armed forces' major patron and paymaster the United States had stressed in recent days it was expecting him to respect."

So Obama wants the military to give control to an anti-American radical Islamic group - WHY?

JS in SD

Excellent summary of the situation in Egypt at #1.41.

Yes...Democracy is nOT just about an election..it is an ongoing process.

As long as the military stays in control things should be ok. When the Islamists take control to include the military it will be time to stop all aid. If not it will Pakistan all over again.

Gentlemen, what you perceive as Democratic and what they perceive as Democratic is not the same thing. Often in countries like this situation Democratic is a cover word for Rigged. Yes I'll be watching with interest.

@Roy, I don't think for 1 min that Obaama was supporting a radical group but was supporting the Democratic election concept. For the leader of a Democratic Nation to say anything less publicly would be wrong.

6dogs,

That is the problem with the people in charge of our country. We keep thinking we can bring "democracy" to these third world countries, mostly Islamic.

Unfortunately, our idea of freedom and democracy are not compatible with Islam.

Plus, our country was formed with the strong idea that religion and government do not mix. With the MB you have the heads of your religion controlling the government, see Iran.

Can you imagine, especially you libs, If George Bush brought in all of the bible thumping televangelists and put them in congress? Made them circuit court judges?

How about Obama putting Reverend Wright in as Secretary of State?

There is a reason why every Muslim country on this planet is effectively 40 to 300 years behind the rest of us.

6dogs,

You are correct.

Back in the day the Democratic party stood for a government that protects and helps the people.

Today the Democratic party stands for a government that protects and helps the pharmaceutical industry.

I suppose lobbyists are people too.

Roy,
As usual, you have to throw a slant on the discussion. Go back and hide your head in the sand and let the discussion go. If you don't have anything relevant to say, don't say anything.

The Islamist have done the same thing in many elections, to include Iran, they buy votes from the illiterate and uneducated. Inundating the local communities with propoganda designed to make people think they are voting for something completely different. We saw in Iraq, we saw it in Afghanistan, it was a favorite tool of the Taliban in Pakistan as well. Al Qaida was able to garner support from both governments in much the same way.

There have been similar attempts here, not so much by Islamic factions, but by extreme left and right sections of the US political machines.

American,
You make a valid point about GW, it would have been much the same thing. Obama disavowed Reverend Wright as the fanatic he is. I doubt Obama would have trusted him with anything, I believe you know that as well.

I think, with the exception of parts of the health care bill, that the Pharmacutical companies are in anyone but the Republican party's pockets. Why do you think there were so many GOP who voted for the legislation in the first place?

Military Man,

That was a two sided answer.

Of course I dont rob banks, except for that one I robbed yesterday.

Most Republicans voted against Obamacare.

Im not sure where you get your information from.

P.S. If you are naive enough to think Obama sat in that church for all of those years, and didnt realize what Wright was about then I must question your sincerity.

Anyone with an IQ over 80 knows that Obama's handlers advised him to distance himself from Wright for fear of a public backlash.

I bet you think there wasnt WMD's in Iraq.

This will end up like Syria. I bet the military is already courting China and Russia. I'm waiting for a phone call...you know who you are:)

Like two weeks ago i saw a new Muslim Brotherhood convention thing online where one of the presidential candidates was chanting about dining in Jerusalem tomorrow with his brotherhood brothers or something like that. The military will not give over power to the nut because they do not want another 6 day (or less) war especially one that would include fully Backed US Military support for Israel. Not the kind of thing any country would want. The Military is protecting the country by not giving over power to the Brotherhood. The only way this can change is for the brotherhood to work real hard at cleaning up their image and removing all the extremist from the group. Draft a Constitution that clearly and equally supports all races both sexes and all religions (even Judaism) Make peace with Israel and plan on having a working and friendly relationship with them into the future.. Do all these things and perhaps the military will trust you enough to lead your country.. you could just adopt the US constution but its more fun to write another one :)

Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and
murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit
suicide. John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814

Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever been
spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found incompatible with
personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short
in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.--James Madison

And THAT Ladies and Gentlemen is why our Founding Fathers, that could have chosen any form of Government they wanted,.....Chose a Constitutional Republic....The Rule of Law, and not men and not the mob...

gary-309869

Better the military than the Islamists. There is more to democracy than the mechanics of an election. True democracy respects freedom of speech , press, religion , separation of church and state , equal rights for women. The Islamists in Egypt would deny all these fundamental rights of a true democracy. Intolerance and inequality will prevail if Islam is allowed to rule the government.

Nonsensical comment. So a military dictatorship is more democratic than an election where WE don't approve of the results? That sounds like something the American religious right would say. I don't particularly like the MB's history, but then the Egyptian people didn't ask me. Did they ask you?

American,
You are a little like having a discussion with a bowl of Spaghetti. Your point is completely lost in your rambling.

First of all: it was NOT a complete partisan vote on the health care issue. There were quite a few Republicans who voted for it. You made my point for me when you said "most" Republicans.

Second: my point was that the Pharm Companies are in the wealthy's pockets, in other words, "self-interest". They will lobby whoever will pass legislation that will allow them to profit in whatever way they can. They are attempting to make it a federal crime to cross borders to save money on medication.

I am not so sure the Islamists would be as bad as you say they are. Look at our culture and society in the US. Christianity has been totally kicked out of the national mind for the most part. Yeah, the GOP plays to the Evangelical crowd, but those days are coming to a swift close. Abortion is just about a non issue anymore. Illegal immigration is also becoming a non issue as Romney isn't going to do anything about it apparently. We had our cultural revolution back in the 60's with the free drugs, free sex stuff. Sorry, but it has become an unmitigated disaster for our society hasn't it. In the US it used to be freedom with responsiblity, now it is freedom from responsibility and people are having a friggin orgy with sex, drugs, and violence starting to really rule the day. Every so often you hear of some horrific crime, and just wonder why someone could do that. Well, if one's moral compass doesn't exist, or is faulty, that stuff comes easy. With the Middle East, it is basically Jihad against Globalization(Americanization) and those folks have seen the results of what Americanization can do. It exports corruption in all forms(sex, debauchery, drugs, crime, corrupt politicians, greed, etc). The MB offers a different program. Not all folks want their women to end up to be loose whores like the average American woman, or want money and consumerism to be their basis of their very existence either.

Robert Bruce70

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/17/12270842-military-guards-egypt-power-as-islamists-claim-victory

In comments said:

"loose whores like the average American woman"

Yes, having thier women as slaves is much better isn't it?

Not all folks want their women to end up to be loose whores like the average American woman

Sounds like Robert doesn't like women very much.

I am not so sure the Islamists would be as bad as you say they are. Look at our culture and society in the US. Christianity has been totally kicked out of the national mind for the most part. Yeah, the GOP plays to the Evangelical crowd, but those days are coming to a swift close. Abortion is just about a non issue anymore. Illegal immigration is also becoming a non issue as Romney isn't going to do anything about it apparently. We had our cultural revolution back in the 60's with the free drugs, free sex stuff. Sorry, but it has become an unmitigated disaster for our society hasn't it. In the US it used to be freedom with responsiblity, now it is freedom from responsibility and people are having a friggin orgy with sex, drugs, and violence starting to really rule the day. Every so often you hear of some horrific crime, and just wonder why someone could do that. Well, if one's moral compass doesn't exist, or is faulty, that stuff comes easy. With the Middle East, it is basically Jihad against Globalization(Americanization) and those folks have seen the results of what Americanization can do. It exports corruption in all forms(sex, debauchery, drugs, crime, corrupt politicians, greed, etc). The MB offers a different program. Not all folks want their women to end up to be loose whores like the average American woman, or want money and consumerism to be their basis of their very existence either.

You made a lot of claims in that post. I would like to see some evidence to back up those claims, particularly that Christianity, Immigration and Abortion are non-issues and that Sex, Drugs Violence have somehow gotten worse or are more prevalent than in decades or centuries past.

@SillyBilly: On the other hand, we have seen what fundamentalist Islamic regimes do to basic human rights. They convenienetly get rid of them, and without those rights, such as freedom of speech and assembly, there's not much the citizens can do if they don't like what their government is doing. You sound as if you would be right at home in one of these countries under that type of rule, however, you may not be able to freely post your thoughts and views on the internet when your freedom of speech/expression is taken away. Also, Your blanket statement describing the average American woman as a loose whore is offensive, it reflects an archaic and oppressive viewpoint in line with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and we see how well that worked out for the women and the entire country over there.

Robert Bruce70

You sound like a typical jihadist. You make broad sweeping insults against women in the west, yet you probably secretly lust after them.

Here's a fact for you to mull over. Mohammad Atta was a card carrying member of the muslim brotherhood. Perhaps the Jihadists like yourself need to imagine how they'd feel if some nutcase Christian Brotherhood member hijacked an airplane and flew it suicide style into the Kaaba at Meccah during the Haj.

If the only product you see coming out of America is sex drugs debauchery corruption and political greed, then you only see the gutter. It is because your mind is in the gutter like most judgemental religious fools. The only reason there is a market for pornography is because the sexually suppressed lap it up like a bunch of thirsty dogs.

Instead, take a look at NASA and the images from the Hubble, or the new Solar Dynamic Research satellite. The computer you are using is a product of whom? The highrise curtainwall construction of the clocktower in Meccah is all western technology developements. The electrical grid that powers your home, or the geology that discovered your oil, it's all a product of the west. It seems that all that the Islamic world has to offer anybody else is oil, Jihad, contempt and Korans, and nobody is buying.

Corruption is in the gutter of your brain, and the Muslim Brotherhood is a useless Jihad organization that is as addictive as opium. And, by the way, the biggest consumer of opium isn't the US, its the 'holier-than-thou' Islamic Republic of Iran.

Robert Bruce on behalf of 99% of the women in this world I would like to take this opportunity to tell you to GO TO HELL! The remaining 1% woman is your Mommy who was forced to gave birth to you and love you. The islamic idea of "entitlement" to a woman's rights is the reason rapists exist in this world, like the hundreds of men in Egypt who tried to molest one woman last week.

@Bruce, you worded it very nicely except the part about loose whores. I suppose you think the men arn't any better, but I guess you just want me to think that is implied. If you said something to the effect that we now have a more sexually free society, or we are more open minded about sex, I'd gone along with that.

The scary part of this discussion is the fact that so many of you completely miss the entire issue. The US is one of the most repressed societies in the western hemesphere. We glorify voilence and hide sexuality.
There is a growing movement designed to open our minds, but we deny it exists. If you look at most European cultures, there is an acceptance of nudity, as separate from sexuality. There are naked women and men in much of their advertizing.
Islam flat out denies that sexuality happens at all. Face to face association between men and women is discouraged to the point that, aside from sex, there isn't any. Women can't even drive cars in many Islamic countries, they have to walk or rely on the males to do what they are required to do on a daily basis. Most of the mature males in Islamic societies would rather share their beds with young boys than the women, because under the Burka, you never know what you are going to get. (Yet, according to Amadinijad, president of Iran "There are no gays in Iran")

The MB offers a different program. Not all folks want their women to end up to be loose whores like the average American woman, or want money and consumerism to be their basis of their very existence either.

OK folks, this is the religious right's view of American Women. The Evangelical right would strip the rights from women exactly as extremists Muslims do.

"When they show you who they are...believe them"

I like loose whores.

@Robert Bruce70

Yes you are right about the MB's fears of globalization and cultural diffusion however if the MB went into full power and attacked anyone they would be eliminated so fast that they would not have a chance to have a future and Egypt's future would die as well. Fact of the matter is all these horrible things you jihads fear from inevitable globalization is simply preventable by raising your kids to have morals instead of killing one another and basically anyone who has a different religion than yourself. If you cant teach them simple morals then yes you have much to fear from freedom.

Heres a question for you jihadist ... what do you think God likes more? A person who does not sin because the person does not have the ability to, OR a person who has the ability but Chooses not to?

The USA has many Muslims and various religions yet they are not all "loose whores". They have the freedom to sin yet choose not to and best of all They don't kill one another and throw acid in the faces of children....

@SillyBilly: On the other hand, we have seen what fundamentalist Islamic regimes do to basic human rights. They convenienetly get rid of them, and without those rights, such as freedom of speech and assembly, there's not much the citizens can do if they don't like what their government is doing. You sound as if you would be right at home in one of these countries under that type of rule, however, you may not be able to freely post your thoughts and views on the internet when your freedom of speech/expression is taken away. Also, Your blanket statement describing the average American woman as a loose whore is offensive, it reflects an archaic and oppressive viewpoint in line with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and we see how well that worked out for the women and the entire country over there.

I believe you are referring to RobertBruce and not me. See what I am doing with the little block print is called quoting. ;)

Logico,

Know your history of the region. Afer the Ottomans lostthe war and the Empire was dismantled, the Arabs wanted to be free and have the US as a model, but under the SYkes Picot agreement between the UK and France, those nation divided up most of the ME into zones or protectorates, with the modern area of Iraq being led by a pro Western puppet king(Hussein). They felt betrayed for the most part. Even TE Lawrence thought they got screwed over. Ever since then we have been messing in their affairs, putting in dictators that did the bidding of BP or Exxon, etc. When they tried to nationalize their oil, we deposed them. All the bad guys of the Middle East that we have killed or help kill were put in their with the help of the West or MI6 and the CIA specifically. The Egyptian military receives billions in US arms aid, and $$$$$$. They are bought and sold for and most Egyptians know this. At least the MB are fellow Egyptians and Muslims, who want at least some sort of change from the corruption and cronyism. It is too bad we don't have a MB type party here. If the Egyptians want Sharia law, then let them have it. it is no skin off our backs is it?

Robert Bruce70

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/17/12270842-military-guards-egypt-power-as-islamists-claim-victory

In comments said:

"loose whores like the average American woman"

Robert Bruce 70 ----- The Arabs never wanted freedom of speech , press , religion , separation of church and state , equal rights for women. They want to impose Islam over the world as the Prophet instructed them to do. Your view that we should have a MB party here is shocking. If they prevailed we would lose all the freedoms we have fought for in the past 200 + years.

It is too bad we don't have a MB type party here.

At least the MB are fellow Egyptians and Muslims, who want at least some sort of change

Apparently, Robert would like to see a Westboro Baptist Church type politcal party represented here in the U.S. Hey, at least they're REAL Americans and g-e-n-u-i-n-e Christians who want some sort of change.
And boy do they stand FOR and AGAINST stuff, right Robert? No more of this squishy democrat/republican stuff, let's have THEOCRACY here too, good and hard. Isn't that a great idea?!

@Addam44, Don't go putting that idea into their heads!

Gary,
It's sad that there are so many in today's society who, even though we are taught to accept Islam, accept what it represents to modern American society.

Robert Bruce,
It is rather unclear as to your affiliation, since you adopted the moniker of a proponent of "freedom" in Scotland. It is a scary metaphor, since Islam and the views you are reflecting in this discussion are so far in the opposite direction from the beliefs of our society and the views of the real "Robert the Bruce".

Your comprehension of the situation is as pathetic as the situation itself. You are an obvious small minded racist hater. STFU until you can comment with relevance.

No president can or should control the election in another country. Egypt must find it's way even as sad as what appears to be happening is. You Repukes always want to play policeman to the world.

Let's me guess, Democracy only works if and when whoever in charge is the one you want to put in. Guess what? That's how US have done so far in lots of country and that is the reason there are lots of uprising in the first place.

@oots

Ignoring the racist, to reply to you...It was our Government that supported these Islamic Revolutions, and in some cases, likely played a part in them...

"..It was our Government that supported these Islamic Revolutions, and in some cases, likely played a part in them..."

More recently is the Syrian rebels support.

Seems the U.S.'s support for these rebels remains somewhat "cloaked". Sure don't want another LEAK. Then there is the problematic Russian involvement.

@Mr.PheaNiques

You can lead a horse to water. You can't make him drink.

Yes, but you sure can drown one in the attempt....bottom line...Democracy isn't compatable with every culture, until the last 3 years in the history of the world...people and peoples leaders understood that

I fully realize that Democracy isn't compatible with every culture. A higher education is required for Democracy and most of the world still lives in educational poverty. I'm scared that America isn't far from falling into that same poverty. We are firing teachers at an alarming rate. The "dumbing" down of this country will take us right back to Dark Ages mentality that is being discussed here.

Yea, this was a boring topic any way..."You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him/her drink"...I love it when I get to do this...We provide "students" with astronomical opportunity for unprecedented levels of education, within 2 ft of my face is the ability to learn everything that is knowable and several versions of each...it isn't our education system that is at fault, it is our "students" and those of us who have the responsibility and ability to encourage them to drink...

Look at any of the "exemplary" education culture, here and abroad, and you will see each and everyone begins with students motivated to learn (internally or externally)...It is our "popular" culture that ridicules being smart or studious, that leads to the waste of the most expensive education on the planet

Interesting that you find both our students and those of us who have the responsibility and ability to encourage them to learn at fault, yet ultimately place blame on the students. I gather from your comment, that American youth in general have no desire to learn.

If you are correct, then this country deserves what it gets. Not to make this personal, but I hope you are wrong.

I don't place the blame only on the students, at least not intentionally. I place the blame mostly on that of the parents of said student, and those of us who have the greatest influence on the majority of America's youth, not our own, aka the popular media (Movies, TV, Music)...

In every home and classroom across America, you can find young people with the desire to learn, and those students do learn...it is not education access that has declined...

and I also support a purge of our Education System, of all Educators, who have proven to be an impediment to education...I just wish the system didn't require throwing the baby out with the bath water

Terry:

Why not we try in USA and get rid of all religious candidates from the election. Why not issue gag order on Cathoics. They support candidates by saying that do nto vote for candidates who do not agree with teachings as per Pope.

Godgraviton ---- In the USA , we prefer freedom of speech. We don't gag anyone.

Terry,

That is not part of a "Democracy" which by that you must mean republic sense america is a republic. In a "Democracy it is the people's decision to choose what to establish if they vote for a religious candidate that is there right.

Why not we try in USA and get rid of all religious candidates from the election. Why not issue gag order on Cathoics. They support candidates by saying that do nto vote for candidates who do not agree with teachings as per Pope.

@GODGRAVITON

Due to something called freedom and rights, separation of church and state and freedom of expression and of course freedom of religion etc..... I think you would enjoy China's government if you hate freedom so much..

My God! The next WWIII? Did I miss the last WWIII? Geez, this is scary . . .

Yes I did miss last world war III..when was it?

Doubt there was aWWIII..but don't joke about it..its not a good thing to have unless your a republican in the USA!

Yeah Mike that's what Republicans want a WW3. What's wrong with people like you? We are all Americans, we make up different parties,and guess what we all want what's best for the country. We agree on some things and differ on others. This lame crap about the other party hating the country is just that crap.

No one ever said democracy was guaranteed. It was however known that it would never happen under Mubarak. Egyptians must now sleep in the bed they make from this point.

Democracy is for people to decide who they put on top and they decided. That's how it works, now whether the one on top is the one that you want, that is an entirely different matter.

What is so great about American culture that you want to spread it everywhere like a virus. Here is a novel idea let other countries develop there own change and gtfo.

Yusuf, Totally agree, it's up to the people if they truly want to be free. From the looks of it, the majority want to be oppressed.

033, this has nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with Muslim society. This change would have happened no matter who our President was.

You are pathetic to even make such an analogy.

At least we are not going to start war with Iran, that is as good a news as any to me.

Or limited women as little rights as possible or another religious' based government. You say Egypt has it bad and yet you want the same thing for US.

Both republicans and democrats are the same in power they continue the same agenda. Expansion of government. George Bush expanded government more then any other president since the New Deal. But atleast there isn't RPG's flying through the streets and IED's going off... yet...

However I think AMerica should leave Middle east and africa. Change will only come in a country by there own people without foreigners meddling. If foriegners do it for them they will be trading one master for another.

Yusuf, you're hitting it on the head, good post.

The problem with "not meddling" is there are plenty of other countries and powers that would be left free to meddle and peddle and gain control. It would not be the people of Egypt making a free and informed choice.

Read up on the Muslim Brotherhood and on Islam and Jihad. There are lots of backers who want to take over and turn Egypt (which borders the strategic Suez Canal) into a force opposing all non-Muslims. For too many of them their goal is the destruction of the West. Their interest is not to live in peace. It is to remove anything they perceive as a threat to Islam. Western influence is considered a threat.

Furthermore the MB has made many promises and then broken them. They promised not to run a candidate for President. Their promises mean little.

We helped Egyptians gain their freedom. We have a vital interest in how this develops. Walking away to let the process work itself out sounds nice but is folly in the real world.

"Shock and awe" was Dubya's forte, remember?

It worked.

He just turned off the "awe" too soon.

Viewer just what is he suppose to do?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here... English isn't your first language, is it?

If you had a mirror, you would know that you need a make-up do-over.

Ron, I can not speak firsthand so I will defer to you. But my cousin worked for Raytheon and spent several years in Egypt. Going from his accounts, Mubarak was totally ruthless. All I an saying is this... getting rid of him at least offered a chance for the Egyptian people. If they have blown that chance, there is nothing we can really do about it. They have to be smart enough to know when to run with the ball. They had their chance.

Sane, if Mubarak was so very ruthless, why didn't issue orders to have the protests CRUSHED before they reslulted in his downfall? Even the trial against him after the fact did not accuse him of issuing any such order. The accusation against him was that he did not put a stop to it, not that he ordered it. A RUTHLESS DICTATOR would have crushed that uprising within 24 hours with hundreds or thousands killed.

You have a problem with my brothers and sisters? They're Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, There is black sheep in any religion. If Islam is so bad why is it its the fastest growing religion in the world including the west? 1.6 billion Muslims only 10% live in Middle East. Middle East was far better when majority of it was united under a caliphate.

They will lose. You would basically have to start a civil war.