Here's Egypt's one chance to show the world a Muslim govt can be a fair and tolerant one while still maintaining their Islamic ideals, much as the US is largely a Christian nation but still coexists with others. After all, the average American Christian only follows about 50% of the New Testament, ignoring the bits that don't work for us anymore; maybe Muslims can make the same compromises to adjust to modern living.

While I'm not holding my breath, I do have some hope. Perhaps miracles can still happen. My main concern now is whether the military is going to push the new govt and give hardliners an excuse to rise to power.

Here's Egypt's one chance to show the world a Muslim govt can be a fair and tolerant one while still maintaining their Islamic ideals,

Did you read the article and see just how "fair and tolerant" they are towards women?

Not only women,but to Christians,Jews,Hindus Buddists and even other Muslims who don´t support their sharia police state.They are a clear and present danger.Like Hitler expressed his ideas in Mein Kumpf.thr ideas of the radical Isalmic terrorsit groups are equally clear.Read the words and the programs of the Brotherhood.It´s nazi Germany all over again!

Egypt = Anotherone bites the dust...................

It's amazing the amount of hatred on this one board. It took Europe over a century to crawl towards reasonably democratic institutions. Egypt is pretty much in that situation where they are going towards democracy. They will end up there, and Islam will reform, much as the hateful parts of Christianity, although still in the Bible are now ignored except by fundamentalists.

Mankind no longer needs religion, and we are in the process of growing out of it. Egypt is going through the same growing pains. Let's hope they do it with as little bloodshed as possible. Certainly, explanations about the worst parts of Islam on this board by idiots aren't going to help the situation.

Islam is not about reform; it is about one world under Islamic law; we have been at war with them for 1350 years, they have not changed their stated goals in that time, why on Earth do you think they are going to change now, we are at war with Islam, get a understanding of what their goal is, their is no compromise.

Funny how some people think we (America) are so different...women being told what they can and can't do with their own bodies. Sadly, our Government is being run by extreme, greedy "christians"...not much difference it seems. If people practiced what Jesus really taught, that would be a different story. As it is, right now, we are headed back to the dark ages. Some "Christians" scare me even more than extreme muslims. The tolerance issue is the same. Wake up.

Meh - he's probably right about them being undemocratic, but they did win an election fair and square, so apparently the Egyptian people have spoken, and what they said is that they don't believe those negative views about the brotherhood.

Democracy is about people choosing, and dealing with the consequences of those choices be they good or bad. To deny them that choice b/c it doesn't jibe with our preferences would be to treat that electorate as village idiots and worse.

Well no matter what happens, Egypt is going to live through this decision no matter the outcome.

Me personally, I don't see this ending well.

Wrong, Khalid. Democracy is about rule of law, protection of minorities including religious minorities, equality, freedom of speech. Not just voting.

The Muslim Brotherhood showed just how much they respect democracy when the MB controlled parliament passed a law saying that anyone from the old Mubarak regime could not hold office in the new government. It was the passing of this law that would ave removed Shafiq from the run off election that prompted the Egyptian courts to finally say enough and disband the parliament. The MB only wants democracy when they can control who is allowed to run, and therefor who is allowed to win. This is not democracy. It should be pointed out that this dissolution of the parliament as one by the Egyptian high court and not by the military, the military has just been the one to enforce the order. The military has taken action to limit the power of the presidency for fear of the Islamists gaining control. You may not agree with this, but I fear that if the Islamists gained control the situation would be far worse.

For those who think that the elections should have been allowed to stand and that he MB is not as bad as they are being made out to be, I suggest you do some reading. Here are just a few examples, in addition to those in the article, of the changes that were occurring under the control of parliament by the MB:

- They indicated that they were planning on abrogating the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel, thus threatening renewed hostilities between the two nations.
- There has been increasing intolerance of those who are not devout Muslims. Coptic Christians, as well as other religious minorities, have been facing increasing persecution by unofficial Muslim religious militias being organized covertly by the MB to enforce their version of the Islamic faith and to ensure an Islamic society.
- The MB announced that there would be a return of the barbaric practice of forced female genital mutilation, which had been outlawed by Mubarak.
- Women were being informed that they would no longer be allowed out of their homes unless they were escorted by a male relative.
- Girls were being told that they would no longer be allowed to go to school.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. Under the MB there would be considerable reductions in current social and religious freedoms that have existed in Egypt for decades under Mubarak's government. The rights of women would be set back hundreds of years under the rule of the MB. Anyone who thinks that this is not so bad, or even remotely acceptable needs to go move to one the Middle East's Islamic republics because they do not belong living in a free society.

As much as it would be great to see a functioning, free democracy in Egypt, that was not going to happen under the rule of the MB. Once in power the MB would quickly move to consolidate that power through the drafting of an Islamist, Sharia Law based constitution and by placing severe restrictions on who would be eligible to run in any future elections. For now, a relatively benign, secular dictatorship controlled by the military is probably the best we can hope for in Egypt. The majority of people of Egypt just do not appear to understand the threat to their basic freedoms that the MB represents. Democracy only works when you have an electorate that is literate and has at least a some minimum level of education in order to be able to make informed choices that truly represent their best interests and the best interests of the country as a whole.

Islamic Democracy? The ultimate oxymoron!

"Wrong, Khalid. Democracy is about rule of law, protection of minorities including religious minorities, equality, freedom of speech. Not just voting."

No, it isn't. Democracy is "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them through a system of representation usually involving periodically-held free elections."

It's majority rule, nothing more. All those other things we take for granted in western society are the result of our particular laws, not the inevitable result of democracy per se.

The Egyptians have just democratically elected the Muslim Brotherhood to represent them. Whether Egypt continues to remain a democracy remains to be seen.

"The Muslim Brotherhood is a fundamentalist group. It is anti-American at its core, despite recently sending delegations to the United States to win friends. The Brotherhood is vehemently anti-Israel. The group is also largely anti-democratic. The Brotherhood was happy to use elections to gain power, but it believes wholeheartedly in Islamic law, the immutable rulings from God that are not subject to ballot boxes or opinion polls."

Once they have control, they will 'change the rules' so that only they get to choose who is eligible to vote, and likely eliminate the right of women to vote in the future. It's only a matter of time until Egypt goes hard-line radical.

The sad thing is, this is ultimately where the "Arab spring" leads.... The muslim brotherhood sits back and waits for the freedom-hungry masses to topple the existing regime, and then they swoop in with their well organized political machinery to fill the power vacuum. This scene will play out again and again, leaving the world in a much more precarious position than it was before, and leaving the people with less freedom (not more). And meanwhile, the religion of Islam tightens its oppressive stranglehold on the world. What a sad day, not only for Egypt, but for freedom loving people everywhere.

it was a democratic election that elected Adolph Hitler!

Maybe now we can sell them some UCAVs/drones so that they too can monitor their population. The people of Egypt did vote the MB into office. This is what you get when a Government holds it's leaders up in a position above the law and general population. Regretfully this scenario will play out across the world time and time again. It has happened here why are we suprised when it happens there?

I'm shocked...an article on MSN that actually paints a less-than-sunny picture of the Muslim "Brotherhood?" But I thought the Arab "Spring" was the dawn of a new age of democracy and peace and understanding in Egypt and the rest of the Middle East. Well, at least that's what our liberal media has been trumpeting since the "Spring" started.

Bruce - Excellent assessment of what happened in Egypt and what is likely to follow.

Democracy is not related to the muslim brotherhood, only by journalists, there is no democracy for them. The extremists will rule with an iron fist as usual just like the rest of those muslim countries. But I would bet we still send money to them...that we don't have.

The USA blood, sweat, tears, treasure and lives lost have resulted in the following:

Iraq is now under the influence of Iran over 5000 American deaths.

Egypt now part of the brotherhood enemies to USA and Israel they have a huge military force of American weapons.

Libya now under control of the Brotherhood will fight each other for years.

Syria..USA backing Al Quida our mortal enemies.. Country is in civil war...

Afghanistan.. Over two thousand USA deaths... Country in worst shape now that when we started.. No exit plan that will work ..we will leave country just as dangerous to us as when we started.

Iran... They are being targeted for destruction for agreeing to purchase oil in currencies other than the dollar.. They may have 1 nuclear bomb Israel may have 100 USA 5000 why would Iran be the first to attack they are not dumb people they have been a powerful nation in the past 5000 years.

Korea....Thousands of USA lives lost and we had a stalemate ...ended war with no gains.

Vietnam... worst war ever over 50 thousand USA dead... lost war now they are our friend's.

The WINNER the world Military Industrial Complex and the 1% of all nations....the Loser 99% of the people in all nations.

The average citizen of the World are pawns with no power....

JS in SD: thanks for your thoughtful, intelligent analysis.

@ Rachel - sorry, but that's a common piece of misinformation you're repeating. Like many, you're confusing "democracy" with "liberalism". Democracy is a category of citizen-participation government that is just about the method used for making the laws that govern society. In this context, popular participation of the citizenry.

Democracy has nothing to do with the substance of those laws: the people can democratically choose to go ahead and make some godawful oppressive and unfair laws. Classical Greek democracies weren't big on freedom of speech and divergence of opinions when it rubbed the majority the wrong way (e.g.; Socrates). Here in the US, our Constitution was also the most liberal of its age in that it was based on citizens' voting, but it nonetheless expressly condoned slavery, and took about a century and a half to guarantee voting rights for women, so...

The article was IMO downbeat about the future. If the liberals are depressed about this turn of events, it must be bad because after all it was the progressives that got the ball rolling to begin with. So when Obama sided with the protesters because their rhetoric more matched his own, he apparently did not see that Mubarak was the better option due to stability for Egypt vs the Muslim Brotherhood. The protesters were always a tiny minority that did all the work, while the Mustlim Brotherhood stood on the sideslines and waited to pounce. Not a bad strategy. I submit however that the military and the old Mubarak regime will not go quietly.

Just to be clear, we were told by Obama that the protesters were young, college types, like engineers and math students that wanted democracy and subscribed to secularism. The odd thing is that most Egyptians say it was the secularism practiced by Mubarak that doomed the country. So they believe that religion should be behind all the control to keep government from running over the people. The protesters never thought secularism even began, and so we see the definition of secularism isn't very clear in Egypt.

What matters is how the Muslim Brotherhood intends to grow their economy. So will foreigners visit Egypt now knowing how they plan to revert to treating women? For the Palestinians, their government like the Brotherhood has done absolutely nothing to improve the lives of the people and still they are in power.

"Egyptians face a new Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood"

Yea Poverty, Religous Persecution and zero civil rights...

This will be both Iraq and Afghanistan before its over, its just a mater of time. Once the brotherhood takes over you can say goodbye to elections. If we spill another drop of American blood trying to teach these guys to live civil it should be considered a crime and the pro war bunch can go take arms and fight themselves..

Attention all western tourists wishing not to be be-headed…… Remove Egypt from your list of places to visit. What a shame the Egyptians just handed over their government to the Islamic Mafia.

Diverdown1 said:

Funny how some people think we (America) are so different...women being told what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Oh please! I'm a woman and as much as I don't want someone telling me what I can and can't do with my body, I certainly would not then expect them to take responsibility for my choices - whether it's paying for birth control or having an abortion.

You can't have it both ways. If you want freedoms, you have to take responsibility for your freedoms.

Feeling sorry for the women of Egypt, now they will be used as an object by the men with the mind of an animal.

and that is how they plan to eventually take over the US - read the book "Because They Hate" - it spells out exactly how they use a countries own laws to secure a foothold and then power and once there they declare those laws invalid and what they want is the new law

Egypt is a sovereign country. We can't force people to vote for one person over another. I completely understand how the Brotherhood won the election. Faced with a choice between a Mubarak type rule and another, possibly more democratic one, Egyptians voted not to return to the past. However, it looks like the military will try to rescind democracy so they can continue looting the govt.

Besides foreign aid, Egypt depends on tourism. Any responsible rule will have to protect all sources of revenue--in short, they don't want to scare away the tourists.

You know, if Americans didn't act so ignorant & condescending and post insulting things about other countries and their citizens, perhaps groups like the Brotherhood would have no need to exist.

JS in SD

"The 'brotherhood' only wants an election when they can choose who can run..."

And it is different in the United States how? Democrats and Republicans are 'Political Organizations,' not government entities and yet when is the last time you saw someone other than a Republican or Democrat win the Presidency? There are (believe it or not) other political parties and candidates running for presidency. Hear much from any of them?

The US is no more a democracy than Egypt. Frankly, I want to see all of the christians in the world and all of the muslims just meet up somewhere and kill each other. Same with all of the radical democrats and radicall republicans (neo-cons). Let the sane rational people who work for a living live their lives. But of course, that isn't going to happen. These nut jobs will push until we have to have our own violent revolution. As for civil rights - if you live in the US, you have none. You have a right to go to work, pay taxes and they'll give you a break on that if you get a mortgage and give most of your money to the bankers that actually run this place.

A few of those "Brotherhood Tenants" sound like the Christian Taliban we have hard at work in the US. So if you're shocked or outraged, you'd better think hard before putting the GOP in the White House in November! They're already working on taking away a woman's right to control her own body, birth control limited, and trying to get rid of the gay population (created by straight people having gay kids). While the "Arab Spring" outcome may cause apprehension to people in the US, they're losing sight of our own issues with civil rights in this country!

If the "Journalists" would have been this critical during the recent past we would not have went to war in Iraq based on a lie.

Civil War.

Obama must be proud of his success, helping the Islamic Brotherhood to get power. This is another failure of the Obama's foreign policy, intervening in support of so call Arab Spring. Obama and his anti-Semite policy help to overturn Mubarak a secular leader, whose a government , help to maintain peace in Meddle East and protect a minority group of Egyptians Christians. The Islamic brotherhood is not only enemy of Israel, but also is in war against the west.

Newsvine needs to figure out a way to be able to delete the first posting without everyone's postings attached to it being gone!

BlueBurner:

And as an American, I want aid to Egypt to stop! America should in no way support the Muslim Brotherhood and their radical whacked out Sharia law.

Women being treated like pond scum is not something I want my tax dollars supporting.

Like you said, they are a sovereign country - fine, so take care of yourselves. The ultimate in hypocrisy - the radical Islamists hate everything about us - yet they will take our aid. SC** them. Egypt wanted the Muslim Brotherhood? Fine - deal with it.

Hey, if the U.S. wants to stop aid to Egypt, fine by me. Although we give money to the likes of Pakistan & Afghanistan--they hate us, too.

Your railing against the way women are treated as members of Islam is really not your fight. Just like it's not my fight to protest the chauvinism of orthodox Judaism. I'm opposed to religion in government, and have enough on my hands protesting the agenda of Far Right Christians in this country to appreciate the separation between church and state. The wives of these Far Righters are probably just as submissive as an Islam woman.

And probably unlike you, I know Islam women here in the U.S. They cover their heads and their skin for religious & cultural reasons. We need to respect diversity and other people's beliefs instead of always thinking that we know better.

Well I suppose that the MBs can do without all that money that Egypt used to get from the USA and other countries in the west, if they should decide to get all radical.

Unfortunately the Egyptians were too busy talking/discussing -after their fighting was over- instead of doing i.e. groups coming together to field the most acceptable persons to run for president. But that is understandable really, as they were not used to such freedom before. The various groups fielded their own candidate to the point where they ended splitting the votes if I am not mistaken. The only group that was organized was the MBs and who had a lot of support out in the countryside, where it appears that the women did not find covering up onerous or demeaning. Perhaps they might find that there was only so far that the MBs could push their religious agenda back then because the other regime was in power. But as the saying goes..... 'see me and live with me are two different things' so the MBs may have been one way then but could be different now that they are getting or in power.

So now with the MBs regime in power they might find that they do not have as much freedom as they had before.... if the military decides to give the MBs the power of course.....but are the military folks that self sacrificing to cut ones own throats so to speak, as wouldn't they be replaced after their desolving the parliament?... hmmmm

Read another article where it was stated that there were those folks who decided that they were not going to vote because they did not want either of the candidates. Well whether you vote or not you still end up with somebody, so in a sense you still voted after all. LOL

That sort of holding one's vote happens and happened here in the USA too, as folks believe(d) that their not voting is going to somehow change the the outcome of the election... it certainly does not change the outcome... usually just make matters worse.... if we can look back even 2 years to the 2010 elections here to 2 years of disfunction or absense of sense and function in the House in Congress as well as in some conservateave State governments.

Instead of jobs creation bills we have new anti-reproductive rights bills mascarading as jobs bills.... Who knew womens' reproductive 'lady parts' can be viewed as a decaying bridge, crumbling dam, leaky levee, or a boarded up house in need of repair, or a forclosure or shortsale or even as pot holed road, or cracked sewer and water pipes etc that needs fixing/replacing. LOL Mind you, perhaps one could suggest or imagine that there is or may be some resemblance to a tunnel..... hmmm LOL

Well I suppose those anti-reproductive rights bills did create additional jobs- for those new employees as reviewers, overseers and inspectors who are now going to provide oversight to make sure that these new anti-reproductive laws are being followed whether in the women's/couples homes (practicing abstainence - as contraceptives are not allowed) to the doctors' offices (that the woman is being probed vaginally) and beyond...to the court house when women and medical practitioners are charged with breaking these laws by not doing, viewing or not reading the new state mandated blurb/message. LOL

Anyhoo back to Egypt.....Well perhaps the military took over so that a secular constitution can be written before the new MB president is installed as another poster suggested.

How about the parliament? Will there be more voting to elect folks to a new parliament as it seems that the high courts and military disbanded the last lot? Or are these folks in the Parliament appointed by the President? How about the Military? Do the President appoint the person(s) to be in charge of the Military and the officers? If so will the new President do a purge of the Military to get rid of those who carried out the disbanding of the parliament? Was there already a constitution and if not who will be charged with writing one and does the old constitution or the new constitution have separation of religion/church/mosque/temple etc and state or will the country be run/governed under religious laws? Enquiring minds want to know.....

There is also another saying..... 'time is longer than rope'... so no doubt we will see what the outcome will be in time...

Peace....

to khaild

Democracy is about people choosing,\ they won it with money from saudi arabi, deceving, cheating in the election, they won it by using i will victory islam and the other president will victory christains, they won it by threating christains not to go out side and vote, muslim brother hood are piece of evil and egypt is going to hill.khaild you are a fantic piece of--------------there is no democracy in muslim brotherhood or islam, it is my way or the highway, egypt will be no democracy in it.

And it is different in the United States how? Democrats and Republicans are 'Political Organizations,' not government entities and yet when is the last time you saw someone other than a Republican or Democrat win the Presidency? There are (believe it or not) other political parties and candidates running for presidency. Hear much from any of them?

So tell us, whoknow--whom should we have elected? Lyndon Larouche? Although, maybe Pat Paulsen would have made a good president, come to think of it.

@ pr-2854777 - not for nothing, but maybe you should get a better handle on English before cussing people in it? Either that or avoid forums while you're high or drunk or both. Only thing you forgot to toss in there is to sign off "all your base are belong to us".

I don't usually feel embarrassed for strangers making aszes of themselves, but I feel embarrassed for you. You're too sad to even be worth making fun of, so...

@ BlueBurner and Downdiver 1- I hate to rain on your "in an ideal world" but those "far-right" christians you keep going on about, amount to what percentage of the populace ? How many Orthodox Christians or Jews emasculate(remove the clitoris) their women to "purify and remove the male sex organs" ? I don't know any at all, and certainly none who force their women to cover themselves/won't let them talk to anyone, or are trying to overrun any governments(are you two confused about what century we live in ? or just history in general ?).

Your unworldly idealistic views are trivial and mundane. You are the part of the population the Muslim propaganda is hoping to fool. Any Islamic women that you "know" are not strict Muslims(or maybe are hoping one day their children will be free?). Next time you're around some of these women, why don't you ask them about female emasculation of the clitoris and what it's underlying purpose really is ? Oh, I'm sure that will go over big with your new friends.

Look it up, and don't be fooled by countries that aren't part of the data, like Afghanistan who is not part of this data group but who most certainly performs this barbaric procedure on it's women(and girls).

Time to snap out of your little dream, oops sorry to bring the truth to you, I'll bet you're wishing you had never read my post, and it was all just a bad dream, right ?

BlueBurner and Downdiver 1 you better hurry up and get your plane tickets to Cairo because all the tourists will be gobbling them up.

@ BlueBurner and DownDiver 1-

Female Genital Mutilation type I and II is practiced in 97% of Egyptian women (look it up in Wikipedia), also you will see a list of other Muslim countries even though some Islamic scholars have issued a "fatwa" against it, I guess that explains the 3% who don't follow this barbaric practice ?

Just some of the countries(data is available) that practice Female Genital Mutilation: (listed in Wikipedia)

Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameron, Central African Republic, Chad, Egypt, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Indonesia, Kenya, Liberia, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Yemen.

Begin to see a pattern yet ? Well ???

One dollar would be a dollar too much.

Egypt would just have to rely on it's manufacturing exports again......oh, wait, what did they ever manufacture and export?

I guess the Egyptian people just voted for an austerity program stricter that Greece's.

All the people that are saying don't send them any money, I agree with, HOWEVER, who do you think will be bankrolling them now?????? How about IRAN!!!!!!!!

Now the world will see why Mubarak and Qaddafi ruled their people the way they did, those were the good days for the non-extremist citizens and for the rest of the world.

Got any evidence to support that prediction, Nostradamus?

You really have issues don't you? Since the fall of Mubarak the Coptic Christians have been under assault by fundamentalist Muslims. Mean while the Egyptian government does nothing. However if it is tolerance you seek for gays why not travel to Egypt now. I am certain that the gay community will be heralded as building strong families. Go ses for yourself.

In the mean time how about keeping your hate-filled bigotry to yourself.

Seems you are the one with issues. Tolerance for gays, women, muslims or anything that the republican right, Christians..ahem...don't see as a benefit for their pockets, they shoot down in the name of God. Makes me sick.

@@Diverdown1: Please explain "republican far right, Christians...ahem...don't see as a benefit for their pockets" What exactly do you perceive to be the economic gain? Sorry, but I haven't gained economically and have not shot "down in the name of God". Brainwashed baseless comments such as yours make me sick. If you think Egyptian gays, women, Christians or any other religious group other than Muslim are going to be openly tolerated, think again. You look foolish reciting blanket liberal propoganda.

This is true!! Christians in the US are so worried about Muslims "taking over" in the US, but they don't have any issue with taking away rights from their own citizens. What goes around comes around..

@ DiverDown 1 and jag23659- You both seem to have a lot of issues with "Christians" and seem to know how all "Christians" think. Where did you get this amazing gift, that allows you to know what other people think ?

jag24659- I assume you mean abortion rights, when you refer to "Christians in the US" ? Well now you opened the "Pandora's Box" and guess what came out ? I suppose you are brainwashed by PLANNED PARENTHOOD, right ? They will "counsel" the young pregnant woman and tell her they are helping her deal with the pain, but the reality is that she will deal with new guilt and pain as a result of her having her fetus murdered. The truth hurts, doesn't it ? This has nothing to do with religion, unless you think murder is ok ? Over 90% of abortions are done out of failed planning, and very very few are done for medical purposes, sorry to rain on your "citizens rights" (babies are not included, they are not people, therefore they have no rights) parade.

When was the last time a Christian Government took over in a region dominated by other third world countries ? In fact, when was the last time you saw any Christians even trying to take over a government ?

Are you two confused about the time period you live in ? Or wait let me guess, you're just confused about history in general, right ?

Christians are trying to take over the US government. In fact, they've been working very hard at it. Have you even been IN Planned Parenthood? Ever used its services? Abortion is legal in this country. An embryo, a fetus have NO legal rights. This is true. Why? It's not a person. It cannot survive outside of a woman's body. The right wing Christians are trying to reverse the healthcare law that provides for free birth control. So when that's done...and birth control is even less available to some people...more abortions will occur. When the right wing Christians vote to cut social services AND birth control AND abortions... what do you suppose will happen? Are you a licensed foster parent? Are you willing to foster and adopt drug addicted babies, kids with psychological issues from abuse and neglect? Are YOU going to feed and clothe all of these kids? When they join gangs and become drug addicted young adults, what are YOU going to do for them? The problem with all of you anti-abortion folks is that you want to control someone else's body to make sure that they give birth to a child, but THEN you don't want to give anything of yourself or your money to care for that child or clean up the messes they make and get into for the rest of their lives. You don't want to pay for the food they need, the housing they need, the programs to keep them out of trouble, the health insurance to keep them healthy or the rehab and mental health services. So, yes, I think abortion is just fine for whoever wants it. It's not murder. Oh, and I haven't met anyone yet who has had issues with guilt and pain from making an informed decision. I have, however, met many women who've regretted having a child because they couldn't care for it. I also haven't seen non-religious people railing against Planned Parenthood... which further proves my point.

"This proofs that people are stupid..."

I couldn't agree with you more.

Exactly. Like Republicans CUTTING military health benefits, whipping up lies to send them to Iraq (which appears many don't believe was worth it anymore), discouraging mental health diagnoses, and fighting against a new GI bill for giving them money to go to college, all things DEMOCRATS have fought FOR the military on, yet US armed forces vote overwhelmingly Republican. WTF? Masochistic much?

Enjoy your brief taste of democracy, Egypt. I don't think you'll have that pesky problem of choosing your leaders much longer.

Exactly. Like Republicans CUTTING military health benefits, whipping up lies to send them to Iraq (which appears many don't believe was worth it anymore), discouraging mental health diagnoses, and fighting against a new GI bill for giving them money to go to college, all things DEMOCRATS have fought FOR the military on, yet US armed forces vote overwhelmingly Republican. WTF? Masochistic much?

Do you have references for any of the above? I don't believe any of it is correct.

@Robert: Of course there are no facts to back up these statements. It's kind of scary, there is a liberal "army" on the loose that has been indoctrinated into the Democratic party. They only spout slogans and propoganda. They are also good at labeling people and putting them into groups such as bigot, racist, christian, bankster, wealthy, 1%, republican, GOP, far right, liars, etc.

Wel when the Taliban rule again it is going to be worse. However, you comment is dead on. Their argument is that, since I cannot control myself, you should suffer and be punished.

Remember the executions at the soccer games. The women who would be tied up to a tree to stave to death, divorce consists of a gunshot to the head and if you are raped you must be killed to preserve your father's honor.

Yep.. a great life for women indeed. Cattle get treated better.

Yeah, I found that "coffee out the nose" laughable. Yeah. Women are the "lustful" ones. Right. And gatherings of young men are always such pious, righteous affairs, aren't they. Women are always liquorin' up and jumpin' anything that moves. Good thing those gangs of men in Tahrir Square are there to rape them back in line. <disgusted eye rolling>

OK.. right there. You feel that inside you about women being called "lustful" and making baseless allegations about how they are? That's how gay people feel every day when ignorant people call us "child molesters" or say we're "corrupting youth". How does it feel?? If nothing else, I hope that the disgust (and it's rightful disgust) the people feel will open their eyes to how they treat others in the US. You can't preach freedom to others and take away freedoms from people at home. It just doesn't work.

TJefferson> What makes you think I'm not well traveled and possessed of an advance degree? How can you possibly make such a remark given your lack of knowledge. The fact I happen to feel, as do many, that this is not going to turn out well for Egypt, is simply my opinion but it's based upon what I know and what I see.

RickITF--I'm thinking that perhaps the concept of "Irony" is not understood by TJefferson. That's gotta be it--because I don't want to think of anyone on this board being that dense.

Thank you, President Bush, for democracy in the Middle East!

Thank Barry you idiot

Umm, neither Bush or Obama did this. Egyptians ousted Mubarak, who both Bush, Obama, and their predecessors supported for fear of what the alternatives might be. I think both of the last presidents probably found it pretty hard to tout the supremacy of "democracy" while supporting a guy who had become a corrupt dictator.

ROTFLMAO... so when is your education going to begin.

proud,

So you think Dennis's position is ignorant? Look back on history and how people living then attributed a natural occurrence to a "god". The rising of the sun in ancient Egypt. Lightening is another good example of a "god's" work. I suppose you still believe that the Earth is the center of the universe as proscribed by the Catholic Church? And there are so many more examples.

No, proud, education replaces the blind faith of a religion by providing an explaination of the unknown.

Also, religion was the main reason that killed more people then any other factor throughout history

Unfortunately it´s mainly one religion that in the 21st century is a super big threat to the whole world and this is the Muslims.at least the finatic sharia types that use terrorism brutal force to expand theri programs,90% of the terrorism in the world is committed by Muslimas.THis is obvioulsy very differen than saying 90% of the Muslims are terrorists. But even if only 10% are it´s an enormous porblem.The non terroists Muslims and the rest of us have a huge job in controlling this plague on the planet.The Brotherhood is part of this plague and I think most of the world can agree on that.

WOW...Any extreme religion needs to be watched and stopped, although that will never happen. No one wants to admit they are wrong. The extreme 'Christians' in this country are as scary as the extreme muslims. I agree that more people have been killed in the name of God than any other plague, disease, etc. Once people realize it is all about "doing unto others, the way you want to be treated"...THE GOLDEN RULE...then maybe there will be some peace. At this point, it is "Believe my God because yours is wrong..." Scary and disgusting.

"it's mainly one religion that in the 21st century is a super big threat to the whole world"

If it weren't for our secular government keeping them in line, judging by their rhetoric, Christian fundamentalists would be just as bad if they were completely in charge. Do you see Turkey causing problems all over the world? No. Muslims under non-religious governance is the same as Christians under non-religious governance.

Yeah, I wouldn't count on education weening people off religion any time soon. You'd have better luck separating a crack addict from the last "rock" on Earth.

If you think that our government is completely secular, then you need to think again. Gays in this country are denied the government benefits and protection of marriage because of religion. Every single argument that anyone has put forth against it has been based on their religious beliefs. Religion is quickly becoming the cancer of the world... including the US.

If you think that our government is completely secular, then you need to think again. Gays in this country are denied the government benefits and protection of marriage because of religion. Every single argument that anyone has put forth against it has been based on their religious beliefs. Religion is quickly becoming the cancer of the world... including the US.

Again? I'm sure you can find a thread about gay rights if the issue is that important to you...

It's called an example of our non-secular government and lack of equal civil rights. You know... civil rights..those things people are worried about in Egypt? I'm sure as long as you have YOUR civil rights you're OK with those who don't, right?

It's called an example of our non-secular government and lack of equal civil rights. You know... civil rights..those things people are worried about in Egypt?

Unconstrained sexual freedom is not, nor should it be, a civil right. I've patiently listened to the arguments of gays and I have yet to hear a compelling reason why we should reverse a couple hundred years of tradition.

I'm sure as long as you have YOUR civil rights you're OK with those who don't, right?

Actually I insist everyone in America has the same civil rights that I do, but I don't have the right to do anything sexually I want to and neither should you. What you are asking for has never been a civil right in America, nor have I heard a compelling reason why it should be so now.

And the mere fact there is likely to be more violence and the army, which has essentially controlled Egypt for a very long time is not going to be willing to cede control to the Muslim Brotherhood, is precisely why I posted as I did.

TJ,

"Then, of course, as Islam works through its internal problems it must also deal with a 21st century world that is watching the process, a world that will not be tolerant of a religion that threatens it."

Could not be said any better!

There are too many factions that simply will not tolerate Muslim fundamentalism in Egypt, including the military.

Agreed. But they are idealists, and are not as well-funded & well organized as the Muslim Brotherhood or the Army? The Brotherhood will import foreign mercenaries if they have to, the Army will not turn over all control to the Brotherhood--and what comes after that is too horrible to think about.

You know what they say. Spring forward, fall back.

Robbie> You can make book on that statement.

Then you are just as scary as you think they are. People like you scare me more than any muslim I have met so far. It is the stereotyping. You think that muslims think all Christians are like the Westboro Baptists? Wake up.

jjpk-

You are an idiot.

@Diverdown1: It is obvious throughout your posts that YOU equate all Christians with the Westboro Baptists.

You know, I'd fear Christians in general a lot more if it weren't for the fact that I live among a lot of them, and find many are really great people. I'm pretty sure the same is true for Muslims in countries where there aren't many Christians around. And I'm willing to bet not too many of the "all Muslims are terrorists" people on here particularly know any Muslims enough to have a conversation with them.

@Diverdown1. I really like how you join into the discussion about the Muslim Brotherhood by trying to equate hardline followers of Islam in Egypt with Christians in America.

This story isn't speaking of the "any muslims" you might have encountered anywhere here in the U.S. Muslims in the U.S. are about 100 times more liberal than your average adherent to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

This article is speaking factually about the well known, stated goals of a hardline Islamic group that has been in existence for nearly 90 years in Egypt. And the fact that more than half of Egyptians just elected their country's political leader from amongst this hardline group. These facts should be troublesome to any world citizen bright enough to recognize how important a stable Egypt is to North Africa and the Middle East. It spawns further worries about whether the majority of Egyptians (80 million plus people) now wholeheartedly stand behind a much stricter version of Islam? What are the implications if that is now true? To women? To children? To minorities? To their economy? To educating a workforce that can be competative in a global economy? To maintaining peace with Isreal? These are all legitimate worries that will impact global peace.

Your attempts to equate this situation with "hardline Christians" in America are laughable. As a society we've already painfully dealt with equality issues for our minorities, women, education, freedom of speech, etc. We currently deal with these issues in the political forum (as opposed to blowing each other up) in the U.S. We debate them freely, publically, without violence 99.999999% of the time. Are there some "Christians" with extreme positions in the U.S.? Sure, just like there are fringe communists, anarchists, and nazis in this nation, but they and their views usually end up ostricized by everyone else in the political process.

The fact of the matter is that women in the U.S. are free to do any job a man can do, go to any school, engage in any kind of interpersonal relationships they choose, publically declare their beliefs, and have every opportunity a man might have. The same currently goes for any immigrant or minority or religious group. Or any protected class of citizens including gays, lesbians, the elderly, and so forth.

What the article above factually states is that the Muslim Brotherhood has published goals aiming to curtail many of these freedoms. They want to keep Coptic Christians and other religious minorities as 2nd class citizens. They want to take away most women's rights...down to physical mutilation. There will be no gays or lesbians, period...let alone freedom of speech or freedom to even live if you happen to be LGBT. These are facts. This is how other middle-eastern countries function under Islamic Law, and this is what the MB have been advocating for decades.

No one bright enough to understand what they are reading about this situation would ever equate our society (as imperfect as it might be) and some of its Christian basis, with what has been proposed by the Muslim Brotherhood as their Islamic state ideal.

If that is what you are doing...seriously equating the two? I suggest you do a little more reading on the issue and get out of your basement apartment a lot more. You'll find social interaction with real people will do wonders for your perspective.

Genghis- how dare you come to this thread with a reasoned, intelligent argument? And complete sentences, too? Don't you know this is MSNBC?

Genghis--I wouldn't risk cramps in your fingers trying to keystroke anymore well-crafted, coherent responses to Diverdown1. I think he's probably a Publicist for the Muslim Brotherhood.

I checked out this website. Do you actually believe this BS?

WhatIsGoingOnHere! said:

I checked out this website. Do you actually believe this BS?

They say right on the site to confirm what they say, you can do your own research--which I would bet you have not. Otherwise, please enlighten us on which of the things on the site your research refutes. The truth is sometimes pretty painful, but it will set you free:

Yeah--seems like all the weapons we supply end up in the hands of someone who wants to use them against us, or is it just me that thinks that?

#2 is worse.

Obviously a government run by religion is the worser of the two evils. Looks like the U.S. could be headed that way in November.

Well obviously a country run by religion is the worse especially if that religion is Islam, I mean other countries in which the rulers all profess to be of a certain faith or even countries that even identify themselves by their religion are all fine as long as they aren’t Muslim. Hmmm that being said another country that is pretty much run by Islam (Saudi Arabia) is our "friend". I know any country that is run by people who don’t agree with our policies is bad regardless of whether it is run by religion or its military

Egypt was nice because they got their ass kicked! - by Israel

Loyd,

I guess you forget it was the U.N. and the Untied States that had to pull Israel off of Egypt after Egypt launched a surprise attack. They were less than 20 miles from Cairo, had control of the Suez Canal and Southern Egypt by the time we got them to calm down.

Jewish people are uslually very quiet, avoid violence and seek to be left alone. But once you get them pi$$ed off then you had better get set for a a$$ whooping.

This is what the Egyptians wished for. What the US wanted was the slaughter of Egyptian citizens to end. Half of their population will be happy. Now they will only slaughter the women.

Thanks, JaneEco. Social Critic must be another PR guy for the Muslim Brotherhood.

You are to stupid to comprehend, do you really think Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell's crew would patrol the streets beating women with metal poles if they reveled to much skin?. Do you think there would be public be-headings? Having people willing to blow themselves and Innocent people up with them for their twisted cause? this is all happening NOW- not in the 16th century. Jesus Christ get a grip.

Paduki suffers from the widely held notion that all religions are the same. They're not.

Hey celtic -- you just described the radical anti abortionists whoconsider themselves christians

It wouldn't be any different if right-wing aliens from Alpha-centauri invaded either. Of course both these scenarios share one thing in common: they never will happen!

Paduki

"it would be no different" Really? Do you think before you type?

It WILL get there if the people of this country don't wake up. It's starting already with the attacks on women's rights and gays. Maybe you missed the preacher in NC who said all gays should be rounded up and put behind and electric fence? Or all the "Christians" that agreed with him?? We're only a few steps away from the Christian Taliban taking over this country.

Unreal, I live in SC so I am well aware of the "preacher" in NC and all 20 members of his church. I suppose if ignorance is bliss, then you are one happy camper. Christian Taliban? you cannot be that fu@#@ stupid? Do you honestly think that would happen? If you knew the first thing about Christianity you would understand that the two are polar opposites- it is one thing to believe something is wrong, is it another to have people stoned to death in public, be-headed, have acid thrown in their face, had honor killings of young girls , - all of which take place NOW- in Muslim countries.

Rock On, Celtic 1! I guess Paduki and jag probably think all of those things are ok because they're a "cultural phenomenon"--I guess they're also turning cartwheels over the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood intends to bring back female genital mutilation.

Man, they should thank their lucky stars you can't be thrown in jail for being dense as a brick in this country.

@stLMO--Must be a bad translation. Maybe this means they also meant to say they were in favor of instating "full rights for women" and not that they were "allowing female genital mutilation" to be practiced again.

Exactly. Pretty soon you won't be able to see a woman on the streets of Cairo, and as for Christians--they'll become as rare as hen's teeth.

"and as for Christians--they'll become as rare as hen's teeth." You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is if you're a Christian. Especially since Coptic Christian Egyptians have had a presence in Egypt for 2,000 years now. A lot longer than the Muslim Brotherhood. Even you should be able to comprehend that as inequitable, MrKarnes!