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Subscribe to RSSThousands of protesters filled Cairo's Tahrir Square for Friday prayers as Egypt's presidential candidates accused each other of trying to steal the election. NBC's Richard Engel reports.
CAIRO -- Thousands of flag-waving protesters filled Cairo's Tahrir Square for Friday prayers as Egypt's presidential candidates, an Islamist and former general, accused each other of trying to steal an election whose result is still not known five days on.
The Muslim Brotherhood, whose candidate Mohammed Morsi says he has already won, called on supporters to gather at the birthplace of last year's Arab Spring revolt until the ruling military council rescinds orders that curb the new president's powers and dissolved the new, Islamist-led parliament.
The delay in announcing the results of two days of voting which ended on Sunday also raised fears that the army may try to swing the election to Ahmed Shafiq, a former air force commander whom Mubarak made prime minister just before his fall.
Tens of thousands of people fill Cairo's Tahrir Square, calling on the military to relinquish power to an elected president. NBC's Ayman Mohyeldin reports.
A result is not expected until Saturday or Sunday, giving the country a tense weekend, although the vast majority, many not greatly enamored of either candidate in the run-off, were staying at home and passing Friday's Muslim weekend as normal.
'Classic counter revolution'
For many -- both in the organized mass Islamist movements and in the more fragmented secular, liberal opposition -- a Shafiq victory, coupled with the military council taking powers over legislation and drafting a constitution, would mean that the six decades of army rule they thought were over, will in fact go on.
"This is a classic counter revolution that will only be countered by the might of protesters," said Safwat Ismail, 43, a member of the Muslim Brotherhood who came from the Nile Delta. "I am staying in the square until the military steps down."
Marwan Naamani / AFP - Getty Images
Thousands of supporters of Muslim Brotherhood presidential candidate Mohammed Morsi pack Cairo's landmark Tahrir Square on Friday.
Mahmoud Mohammed, a bearded, 31-year-old marine engineer from Alexandria among a group from the more fundamentalist Salafist movement camping on the square, insisted they were not looking for a battle, but wanted to see democracy installed.
"The people elected a parliament and they put it in the rubbish bin. We need the army to hand over," he said, adding: "No one came here for a fight. We need democracy."
Prayer
Around him, the broad traffic interchange by the Nile in central Cairo was filled with makeshift tents offering shade from the midday sun, hawkers offering an array of goods from tea to "I Love Tahrir Square" T-shirts and a mostly devout crowd of men, many bussed in from the provinces, who knelt in prayer.
Official results from Egypt's presidential election have been delayed, sending political tensions soaring. ITV's Lindsey Hilsum reports.
Other parts of the crowd chanted and waved Egyptian flags.
The dissolution of parliament ordered by judges appointed under Mubarak and enforced by the army; the military decree on new constitutional arrangements; and the delay in announcing the president by an electoral commission appointed under the old regime have sapped confidence in a process Egyptians hoped would lead to real reform.
Shafiq, who was Mubarak's last premier when the army forced out the dictator to appease the Tahrir protesters, challenged Morsi's self-proclaimed victory and said on Friday he was sure he had won, despite Islamist pressure on officials.
He stopped short of emulating Morsi, who claimed outright victory on the basis of the Brotherhood's own tally of results from local polling stations, but said was "confident."
At a televised address to whooping and cheering supporters, Shafiq said: "These protests in the squares, the campaigns of terror and the media manipulation are all attempts to force the election committee to announce a particular result."
Philippe Bouchon / AFP - Getty Images
The President of Egypt for nearly 30 years, Mubarak was an advocate for peace in the Middle East and a major U.S. ally, but Egyptians eventually grew tired of his corrupt regime and he was ousted in a popular revolt in February 2011.
In a country where virtually no one can remember an election that was not rigged before last year, trust is low, not least among Brotherhood officials, many of whom, like Morsi, were jailed under Mubarak for their political activities.
The same electoral commission that handed an improbable 90 percent of a November 2010 parliamentary vote to Mubarak's supporters - a result which fueled the protests that brought him down a few weeks later - sits in judgment on the new presidency.
Muslim Brotherhood spokesman Mahmoud Ghozlan said on Thursday the delay "generates concern, no doubt", expressing fear that the authorities were getting ready to announce Shafik the winner. "The doubt extends to this possibility."
Egyptian media have described a nation on edge.
Protesters in Egypt's Tahrir Square are suspicious of official statements regarding the health of ousted leader Hosni Mubarak. An electoral commission has said it will not announce the result of Egypt's presidential election until Thursday. NBC's Richard Engel reports.
Al-Ahram, the main establishment newspaper, noted there was intense pressure from within Egypt - and from the army's key sponsor, the United States - to sort out the situation quickly to ensure pledges of democracy were met.
It noted that U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had called for an "inclusive democratic process" and said the army must not "dominate or subvert the constitutional authority."
"The interest of the nation goes before narrow interests," said reformist politician Mohamed ElBaradei, a former U.N. diplomat and Nobel peace laureate on Twitter. "What is required immediately is a mediation committee to find a political and legal exit from the crisis. Egypt is on the verge of explosion."
Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is suffering from ailing health and meanwhile, thousands of activists are taking to Tahrir Square in protest of the nation's military rule. Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer and MSNBC Military Analyst Col. Jack Jacobs join MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan to explain the situation abroad.
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Follow us on Twitter: @msnbc_world
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Leave a Comment:
who cares, egypt is a stinking cesspool and the people are some of the dirtiest smelling animals you will ever see...anyone who has been there and denies that is a total liar..let them kill each other and do what they want...isreal will wipe them out like the last time if they get crazy..
Feeling a little racist and ignorant today Lawrenc?
We need to pull all Americans out of Egypt and close our embassy. If not we'll have another Iran hostage crisis on our hands with a NeoCarter at the helm. The only bright spot if we don't is they will only be held hostage for 212 days instead of 444.
It would be nice if we could get back our 1.5 billion dollars Hillary and Obama rushed to sent the Egyptians,before they issed a travel warning for Americans. Maybe King Obama could just declare Egypt to ba at peace and appoint an Egypt CZAR?
Amon are you that much of a loser that you have to play the race card
Amon you're probably right about race. Of course, every time Egyptians "rally" they pretty much just rape every woman who dares to show up in support of their cause. There have been lots of media reports about that, and some journalists who narrowly escaped rape, or didn't. But keep thinking they're just good plain folks over there. But I bet if you're a woman, you wouldn't dare set foot anywhere near there.
Inde, Are you this oblivious you do not recognize it when you see it?
Honestly "Loser" grow up kiddo
Well lawrenc--having just come from that magnificent country I can honestly say that you are 100% dead-wrong. The people are some of the friendliest I have ever met. And although the country is very hot, no, they do not "stink" any more than anyone else does. Cairo is a huge city and it is dirty and can be pretty smelly as well. But is NYC that much better? Maybe a little, but not by a whole lot.
Hey Amon Ra, speaking the truth and giving the facts is not racism or bigotry. The truth is the truth whether you like it or not
What would Mitt do?
We need unwavering leadership here. What is his position on this?
He'll get back to us on that.
Watch on You Tube..... Arab Spring, Arab Winter
Rustyboy-FL......
Mitt must first check with Grover Norquist and/or Rush Limbaugh to find out what his position is.
Let us hope Mitt Romney does not discover (first hand) that being President of the United States amounts to much more than counting beans.
Another brilliant and decisive statement by Hillary. Can't she ever say something meaningful and stick to her guns?
The reason that the Egyptian courts disbanded parliament was the completely illegal move by the Muslim Brotherhood controlled parliament to keep Shafiq out of the presidential run-off election. When it started looking like their candidate was going to lose the MB pushed through a law saying that no member of the previous regime can hold any office in the new regime. This was a huge overreach by the MB that was met with a disbanding of the parliament by the courts. The MB used their control of parliament to try and steal the election so the courts took the only action they felt that they could to prevent it. It became very clear that there would never be a free election in Egypt with the MB in control anymore than there were under Mubarak. Now the MB is stirring things up by claiming victory before the results are released in order to be able to cry foul if it turns out that they lost.
The reality is that Egypt is far better off under a relatively benign, secular dictatorship controlled by the military than it would be under an Islamic government controlled by the MB. For those who try and defend the MB and say they are not as bad or as extremist as people re making them out, here is just a brief list of some of the things the MB has promised to do once they are in control:
- They have stated that they plan to reinstate forced female genital mutilation which was outlawed under Mubarak. The MB stated that women can not control their sexual desires so this practice must be used to save women from these desires that they can not control.
- With the MB in control in parliament women were no longer allowed to leave their homes unless escorted by a male relative.
- The MB has stated that girls would no longer be allowed to go to school. They see women as the property of men and educating of women to be against their beliefs.
- The MB has stated it's intent to abrogate the existing peace treaty with Israel and that they do not believe that Israel should exist and that it should be removed. Under the MB leadership it is likely that there would be another 1967 style Middle East war.
- Under the MB leadership there are"unofficial" groups supported by the MB that are persecuting anyone who is not following the accepted version of Islam. There has been huge increases in violence against Coptic Christians and other religious groups. Under Mubarak, Muslims, Coptic Christians, and other religions had lived together in relative peace.
I could go on, but I think I have made my point. Under the leadership of the MB the people of Egypt will lose many of the social and religious freedoms they enjoyed under Mubarak. The rights of women in Egypt will be set back hundreds of years. While a democratically elected leadership is preferable, when you have a largely uneducated and illiterate electorate that is incapable of making truly informed choices about their leadership, a benign dictator is probably the best you can hope for. The people in Egypt were too easily swayed by empty promises, colorful rhetoric, and outright lies from the MB during the parliamentary elections. The lack of education allowed the leadership of the MB to manipulate the people into giving them control. Even before the Egyptian courts and military took their latest actions, many people in Egypt were having serious doubts about the MB and the direction things were heading. The people who initially started the revolution against Mubarak, the academics and more educated younger generation, were very unhappy with what was occurring. Their revolution had been co-opted by the MB in order for them to seize control for themselves. This was not the intent of the revolution and the potential for yet another uprising was already brewing. Things are now coming to a head once again. The only question is will this new uprising be any more successful at bringing the desired change than the last, or will Egypt revert to a Mubarak style benign, secular dictatorship. After all, the only people that Mubarak ever really went after was the MB in order to keep them from doing exactly what they did over the last year, taking control in trying to install and Islamic religious government.
I would like to know the Muslim Brotherhoods position on the many "pagan idols" of Egyptian antiquity existing in their country. When the "Islamic fundamentalist" Taliban instituted sharia in Afghanistan they saw fit to destroy not only the Buddhas of Bamiyan but many Buddhist relics. The Arab spring so enthusiastically support by an ignorant US administration is rapidly turning into a nightmare.
"At a televised address to whooping and cheering supporters, Shafiq said: "These protests in the squares, the campaigns of terror and the media manipulation are all attempts to force the election committee to announce a particular result.""
And the vast majority of the left-leaning media in the U.S. certainly have allowed themselves to be manipulated by the so-called "Arab Spring," the members of whom they breathlessly praise as democracy-seekers. Sure, let the Muslim Brotherhood gain power and let's see how long the "democratic process" lasts. You can already see it eroding by the way Coptic Christians have been treated since the wonderful "Arab Spring" took place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/24/opinion/the-copts-and-the-arab-spring.html
You're absolutely right Joe. Democracy requires the voluntary surrender of the majority getting its way. Unless there is only 1 race or religion or 1 political party, you cannot have a democracy in a diverse society unless there is protection for minority rights. That's why we always say here in America that we can tolerate everything but intolerance. Muslims cannot tolerate other religions, other creeds, or any other way of thought--in fact, they cannot even tolerate other Muslims if they happen to be women. They will only have "democracy" when they achieve total unity in thought by wiping out every citizen of unlike mind and making themselves yet another homogenous society, like Afghanistan. It's sickening to call what is happening "democracy."
.
Are they better off with the Muslim brotherhood or the military. I'd take the military...
The military. The muslim brotherhood is just another name for Al Quida.
My advise to Egypt is to come together and build more pyramids as a sign of unity. Perhaps try a cube or something. Instead of using it for dead kings, make it into an outlet mall or something. Use a jewish architect. And if you see an abundance of frogs or other plague, then be flexible enough to go in another direction.
Thanks JS you are spot on, Eqypt will move back in time many years under the islamic rule and rule is not the harshest word I can think of for them. Out Prez is more interested in re-election than anything in this entire world, he is tapping Soros big time for advice and money. Say what you want about Mitt but he is not in bed with the union...just check out the NLRB appointee from the most corrupt union around, as prosecuted by Christie.
AlQuida will be doing the ruling in Egypt, heads will roll down streets and soccer fields.
do they do anything else in egypt other than protest? this nonsense has been going for about a year now since that fashionable "arab spring" thing last year. enough already.
What else would you expect from this country and the muslims who control it? Peace and harmony?
Of course they do, but why would you hear about it in the media. BREAKING NEWS: Egyptians going to work, school, shopping today!!! Speaking of work, many people there work over 8hrs/day 6 days/week and earn $100/month or less. Meanwhile Mubarak and his family had stolen BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. Now you know why they are always protesting.
scir91onYouTube & Jack-1006819......
How long do you two suppose the American revolutionary period lasted? You might also consider the several decades which were dominated by the political issues over which our civil war was fought.
It is unfortunate (for you) world history cannot be tailored to fit your attention spans.
Egyptians: Please, do not judge America by the ignorant, insensitive, ethnocentric remarks you may read online. We, too, have our curmudgeons and, in this election season, they are in full political heat and itching for any fight.
Too funny!
How's that Arab Spring working out for you?
Well, the Egyptians have a choice between Mahmoud Mohammed, Ahmed Shafiq, or military rule. Some choice, eh? But the Egyptian people are reaping their just rewards since typically the middle eastern version of democracy is one where their candidate is elected. Any other election outcome is generally rejected and is grounds for violence. Obviously one faction or the other always loses, so violence is assured.
The most likely end result is a military takeover.
If the military has half a brain they will exterminate the muslim brotherhood right down to the last brother. If that radical bunch actually gets control, they will execute all the millitary. This is a flaming fiasco and odumbo is behind the brotherhood all the way.
Ian Emdee,
If your point is to place the events in Egypt in proper context of time and then compare to America, okay. Let's start with basic history. How long has civilization existed in Egypt? In other words, when did Egypt become Egypt, for all sakes and purposes? Now contrast that with the USA. Seems like Egypt has had MUCH longer to get it right, no?
With that established, you can choose to rationalize and give myriad excuses as to why Egypt and the Middle East is a mess (which will likely take the form of blaming the west), or place responsibility where it belongs: In the hands of the people. The people of Egypt, as with most other Middle Eastern countries, are responsible for there current states. For example, it appears as though the Egyptians, via Democracy, have elected the Muslim Brotherhood to assume power. Presuming the election was not rigged, and Morsi has indeed won, this is a case of choice by the Egyptian people. We'll see if this choice was smart, or not.
The military needs to do their job and safeguard those tallies of votes because that's a whole lot of 2% I see in the picture. I'm sure that Christian counter is going to tell his Muslim brothers to call the military too.
The courts and military running the country - sound like some place else you know? Anyway the Jews will never allow the Muslums to take over Egypt.
The hell wants to see the gehs or whatever with them pink flowers about loving us, they do enough already enjoying a well-cooked hamburger for once.
I guess you want democracy where half of the population have no rights to vote. Yes, I am talking about the women with the new regime and you still think that will be democracy?
Let's also look at how they vote, counting papers in remote villages, where Muslim can lied and cheated theirs way with more bogus votes. This is rigged from day 1.
Add to that, military personnel( who are citizens) also denied the right to vote.
I wonder who the next dictator will be.
The Middle East is a cauldron of disaster, the whole Middle East seems to be on the brink. The US must want it this way, when you have strong dictators like Khadafy, Saddam, Mubark and more these animals won't dare get out of line of they know what will happen to them. I know I will be fried for this but the middle east loves it's rulers, look at Saudi Arabia ( no elections ) Bahrain ( No elections ) Kuwait ( No elections ), etc, and it keeps the people in line, once you remove these powerful tyrants...BOOOOMMM!! Chao's rules and the mobs rule the day, we send millions in aid and shiploads of guns to whatever group is against the ruler with no strings attached and the money and guns quickly disappear. F**k Egypt and the rest of them, let them kill eachother off and let's just sit back and watch for a change, that is how they like to live because they all seem to be happy yelling and screaming to the camera's and if all else fails or they get bored they can always get attention by leading a rousing chorus of, "Death to America, Death to Satan".
Harleman, gotta agree with you...this backward, illiterate culture continues under the rule of the muslims, nothing new about that. We can never bring democracy, peace and harmony to a hate filled culture such as islam. Let em kill each other, that certainly nothing new.
Correct Jack, these people have their own culture and it is on the end of a sword or a bullet to the forehead, they don't care about democracy and why we are trying to shove it down all these middle east countries is astounding. These people need and like strong tyrants to control them and then they are happy, it's been like that for thousands of years and will continue. We need to keep to ourselves and worry about the SERIOUS problems that we are facing here in the US.
You bigots can spew racist vitriol all you want, but the fact remains that WE have killed far more people around the world in the last hundred years than ANY ME nation has. If you want to talk about violence and brutality, take a look at our foreign policy since WW2.
People around the world come in all shapes, sizes, colors, religions and creeds. But we all bleed red.
Indy P, speaking the truth and giving the facts is not racism or bigotry.
the words bigotry and racism are words spawned by satan himself in order to muzzle the truth and facts about ideolgy and people
Indy Patriot, wait about 10 years until they get a couple of 'Nukes on their hands, they will kill more people than all wars combined. This is not racism this is fact, face it these people pour acid in womens faces because they won't marry them.
I agree with Harelman 100%. This is a different culture. This is not the type of culture where Democracy works. They need an authoritarian ruler to keep them in line. That's just the way these people are, just the way their culture operates and has operated for thousands of years with little ideological change.
Its amazing how conflicted radical islam is all over the world, yet our political leaders advocate the removal of authoritarian control, and the political rise of a group that has proven ties to radical islam. A group with ties to a radicalized religion bent on political power and oppressive domination.
I believe the military doesn't want Egypt to turn into Afghanistan or Yeman or Somalia by allowing an islamist party to take over the country's political control.
Does anyone have any doubt whatsoever that if the Muslim Brotherhood were to take complete political control of Egypt that they would not eventually radicalize and be completely corrupt????
I believe an executive order should issued.
Mubarak,an ally of America's for over 30 years and Hillary and Obama throw him under the bus,then give the Egyptians 1.5 billion dollars and the Muslem Brotherhood tries to take over but the Army says no.This is Obama's mess We should have never got involved.
Agreed StormerF, Obama should have never got involved but remember the republicans and democrats along with McCain and the rest saying how we just can't stand by, this is always the result when you remove a strong tyrant..CHAO'S...the same thing for Syria, we are going to be sucked into that mess, hey I remember on 9/11 they were cheering and dancing in the street all over the middle east. Who's getting pounded now Syria? Now you want our help and of course the stupid US is going to pour a couple of billion dollars your way.
But that wouldn't be promoting FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY now would it?
So what's the answer, StormerF? Do we allow a dictator to rule Egypt for 30 years without ever being challenged for the presidency, or do we "throw him under the bus" when the populace decides it has had enough?
The U.S. has had its share of fomenting violence and revolution in the ME for decades, but I believe this time the will of the people (after watching the Tunisians win their democratic elections) created their own destiny toawrds free elections.
Don't forget, Mubarak was a great ally of the U.S., but he was still an oppressive dictator. So what's the answer?
Would your premise have been different if it was during Bush's terms? Your political panties are showing.....
Hey Indy, Mubark, Saddam, Shah of Iran, etc, were all our allies at one time, you know how the US is either you are a good dictator or bad dictator, once you become a bad dictator you have to go and the US will throw you under the bus. The US has and will always be involved in other countries affairs whether it's rigging elections, sabatoge or more and it will continue but remember when change does come you cannot always predict the outcome and sometimes it's better to have the Devil you know than the Devil you don't.
We cannot promote Freedom and Democracy in these countries, they like their tyrants ordering them around and forcing them to come to parades honoring them. What works here (some of the time) will take generations to work in the ME.
I think the situation in the Islamic world is very telling. Islam is still in the 7th Century. Barbarianism still trumps civilization. An alien life form might consider Islamic beings, early unintelligent humans. But, then again, even the Western Culture has barbarians - some kill their own offspring as they exit the womb. The only sign of the growth of civilization has been the increased respect for human life. Remember the torturing in the 18th century! the mass killings!? Sounds like Islam! and the baby killers of the West.
Chickens coming home to roost. We have tried to play an aberrant geo political game in the area for decades - some dictators our friends and allies, others not. Those that are not we try to unseat, regardless of civilian casualties and how we do it ( Iraq - case in point). Those we like we support, regardless of civilian casualties. There is thus no principle based message to the people of that region - nothing for them build or hold onto as a guiding ideal, merely confusion as they have tried to follow our hypocrisy. Today Syria, tomorrow Egypt, then perhaps Saudi, followed by Turkey ( the Kurds do not love them ). What a mess and tragedy.
I see here islamophobic comments that are irrelevant to the article. The islamic civilization is the reason Europe had renaisance. People have the right to protest and it is in their country. If anyone has a problem with that then it is their problem. Christian conservatives and tea baggers are campaigning in the U.S. and want their Christian interpretation implemented in the system and you consider that to be ok while you are crying about Muslims' right to voice their opinion in their own country.
isadin, it is not islamophobia it is fear, fear of a religion that is so powerful that people fly planes into buildings, blow themselves up, pour acid in little girls faces for going to school, blow up train stations, set off car bombs with themselves inside of it, yes it is fear that drives some of these comments including mine. I have Muslim associates and no they are not planning terrorists attacks to my knowledge but I am talking about the fear of terrorists and since none of the Muslim countries seem to want to control them unfortunately to myself and others the face of terrorism to me is Muslim and Islam, as I said I have Muslim associates so I am not a racist but yes I fear terrorism no matter what the religion is.
This is democracy, the Mulim Brotherhood won. The military needs to hand over the country, move on. America paid Mubarak over $80 billion during his reign which his family still has what a waste of an investment. It's a mess but you need to let the Egyptians sort it out.
Just wait til the muslim brotherhood starts blowing up cars and lopping off heads.
They haven't started yet?
Theocracy or Military Dictatorship.... The ONLY types of Muslim governments!
Roadkill:
Need to expand you rknowledge.
Mlaysia, Indinesia, Singapore have Muslim Govenrments. They are all democratic. Actually Singpore is one of the most modern and forward looking country with living standard that is if not better quite competitive to us.
Ok, I modify... the only ARAB muslim types of governments. fixed.
Saudi Arabia and Bahrain (Monarchies), Oman (Sultanate), Jordan, Lebanon, Algeria, Mauritania, Morocco, Palestine...You're pretty good at being wrong
Monarchies, Sultanate, etc... ALL FORMS of MILITARY DICTATORSHIP. Thanks for the endorsement of my proclamation, and confirming my statement. (ps Lebanon is fairly diverse, and has given Democracy a try. Sadly, they are slipping into a Theocracy from the immigrant ARAB MUSLIMS!)
We should speak out clearly for the democracy since we are knee deep into it. This is more important than Syria. Egypt has larger influence in Middle East.
As for Muslim league we have our fundamentlist in USA, India has their fundamentalist. Israel has its fundamentalist. I am not going to say one brand is better than other. Muslim league is not hurting us and neither they are posing international crisis to the extent Jewish one in Israel and Muslim one in Pakistan are posing.
Did I read this correctly...The US and Hillary Clinton want the main establishment newspaper, Al-Ahram, to sort out the situation? We all know what happens here when the sheeple read the Liberal Media.
Obama throws Mubarak under the bus. I think its best he shut the hell up and keep us out of it.
The next leader of Egypt will be a Trojan! Mohammed Morsi has an engineering degree from USC.
I guess BO's buddies in the Muslim Brotherhood have something to say about that Arab spring.
To all you who believe that some of these posts are racists or hint of bigotry, know this, speaking the truth and giving the facts is not racism or bigotry. The truth is the truth whether you like it or not. The words bigotry and racism are words spawned by satan himself in order to muzzle the truth and facts about ideolgy and people.
If I believe that a muslim and his religion is corrupt, prove me wrong. That belief is my truth and as such is not subject to your dicernment of whether it is right or wrong. It is right because I say it is. Remember that old mantra call of "tolerance" that all you spew out, well, be tolerant of what I believe to be the truth. Let's all be tolerant of each others views and so being we are at a silent stalemate, staring at each other with nothing to say because my truth is mine and your truth is yours and neither the two shall meet.
So if someone says that they believe that Egypt is a cesspool, as in the very first post, shut the hell up and be "tolerant" of his belief, unless of course you think tolerance is good only if it benefits YOU!
Jack:
Fair.
I believe that all religions are corrupt and Christianity is the most corrupt and most fascist. No other religion followers have killed More people, enslaved and exploited more people and is basically inhuman. Islam stands next to it and Judaism the parent one stands next to it that is currently exploiting and enslaving Palestinians.
Monotheism by very nature is self serving concept. All three religion are monotheistic. They share same genetic root as Fascism, Nazism, Communism. They may differ the area they select but they are akin in their belief in practiced. They are like raging bull who Carnot see anything else but Target to exploit and kill. The nice facade they put up of nice scriptures, God, and morality are just a smoke screen. Even Jesus mince no words when he said as they speak in the name of God they do the bidding of Devil.
Jack, do not call me racist or bigot as I am not calling you so.
here...I beleive you dropped these "FF"
And your evidence is? Tell me do you have a similiar list for race (have whites killed more, then blacks, then asian...)? How about nationality (Americans, Germans.......)?
Godgraviton, Jesus Christ killed no one and he is the head of Christianity. The killing was done to the corrupt, as it should be. They had a choice and chose death. who is to know the mind of God?
You may argue that there is no god because how could a god let such misery happen.
Answer: The very nature of Adam and Eves sin was a direct request from God to give them the knowledge of evil, to know what it is like to die, suffer, get cancer, lose a child, be obese, be blind, deaf, and lame.
WE ASKED FOR IT. Even the killing that you claim all religions have done, we asked for it, from the beginning, and God said ok here it is.
OUR FAULT, NOT HIS
Christ was sent to change that and make us (all) right with GOD. Get it?
I dont see this ending well no matter who takes over.
Wiggle :
I am not so pessimistic.
They have 10000 year old civilization and they will find a way.
The current change to modern world is challenge. Thanks to western
policy to hob knob with dictators and keep them in power at the cost
of ordinary people.
You're mistaken. The people who run Egypt today are not the Egyptians of ancient history. Those there today are Arab crusaders, and nothing more.
I'm not sure when this happened, but somewhere along the line, we Americans decided that its our destiny to bring democracy to the world ... whether they want it or not.
In doing so, we have imposed our will on country's through any means, including economic and military. We have killed thousands in the name of freedom ... or our version of it. We have armed opposition parties in those country's so they could violently overthrow their governments in the name of peace. We have pushed for sanctions in country's that wouldn't "toe the line" and stifled their economy's in the name of prosperity.
What has interfering with the lives of people got us except the death of US citizens? Who or what gave us the right to try and make the world over in our image? What made us think we are like gods and the world will either to bend to our will or be punished by it.
I can understand why the people of the ME hate us. Why they look at us as the "great satan". In our own arrogance, we had made it a national matter of pride to force others to our way of thinking at any cost, including the death of women and children. I have little doubt that if we had just left these people alone to live and die by their own means, without coercion or interference from us, we would have never been attacked on 9/11 and wouldn't have lost a single American life in trying to force others to be just like us. We would have been non-participants ... a non-issue. The targets we put on our own backs never would have been painted.
As long as we keep interfering in the lives of others, we will be under a threat of attack. We will be like the bully who blames his victim for punching him in the nose. We need to step back and let the people of the world decide their own fate. We have no right to remake the world in our image.
Mike:
Our policy since WW2 was dictated by our fear of Communism, which actually was not there.
In process we did more wrong from Lahore to cassablanca.
Godgraviton, I believe you're right and it makes perfect sense.
Either way, I fear that we may have gone too far and that we have interfered so much that our nation and its integrity are forever damaged. The best leaders lead by example. Lets look at what examples we have given the world: death, chaos, destruction.
The American people themselves are better than this.
The people are probably just tired of being in limbo for so long.
Mahmoud Mohammed... "No one came here for a fight. We need democracy."
Just need a recount. I thought Mr. Morsi won.
When did democracy become mob rule? Maybe at its core it has always been mob oriented.
ray:
2008 was like second coming of Christ.
In my wildest dreams I never thought people of this great nation will behave like that.
IN your wildest dreams you never thought you would see people holding signs, camping out on a sidewalk, receiveing a bit of pepper spray in the face, or staying a night in jail? You need to get out more.
IN 2008, I didn't see anyone burning down buildings, raping women, hurling molotov cocktails, or burning churches.
MOB versus PROTEST
What happens when my protest is bigger than yours?
Democracy by definition is mob rule. The oppression of the few by the many. Democracy is more unjust than other way of governing.
It's time to bring back the Pharaoh
I have suggested it before in another context but think that this is a context where it must be said again:
"People in islamic countries are asking for democracy... I doubt they understand the meanings.
Saddly, after years of totalitarisms, most of them do not understand or even know what "democracy" implies. So, they give themselves "elections" and then the uneducated, naive majority votes for fundamentalist-manipulative Islamic parties..."
Just remember that religions, with their packages of fundamentalist "dogmas", are also a form of totalitarism and "in essentia" the opposite to democracy a free will and thought.
Geronimus:
Is not it like in USA too?
Yeah, tell that to American Christians.
Yes Geron I agree. It seems like they just want to have a voice in who their dictator is. The whole concept of the leader being the servant is lost to them I believe. Well gee, we have a leader that THINKS he is a dictator. We shall show the world at least we can still function as a democracy in February.
@ GODGRAVITON
Not at all, even if US is still far from being an exemplay model, you can't compare it with the totalitarian regimes that has been subjugating (and killling) their own people under fundamentalist military or religious laws.
Democracy is not an absolute, It's a dinamic toward a constant searching path; but still it's not a Sharia or a Inquisitory state. It is live and let live. On the heart of democracy (which also isn't perfect) there is pluralism and acceptance of the others (so far as they do not attempt against ones or the others).
Correction to above, February should have been November.