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Subscribe to RSSUpdated at 8:50 a.m. ET: Turkish President Abdullah Gul said on Saturday it was not possible to ignore the fact that Syria had shot down a Turkish military jet and said everything that needed to be done following the incident would be done, Turkish media reported.
Gul said it was routine for jets travelling at high speed to cross borders for a short distance. He said an investigation into the incident would look at whether the plane was downed in Turkish airspace, media reported.
Gul also said Ankara had been in telephone contact with Damascus and that a search operation for the plane and missing pilots was still under way.
"It is not possible to cover over a thing like this, whatever is necessary will be done," Gul was quoted as saying by state news agency Anatolia.
Faruk Celik, Turkey's Labor and Social Security Minister, said Turkey would retaliate "either in the diplomatic field or give other types of response."
"Even if we assume that there was a violation of Syria's airspace — though the situation is still not clear — the Syrian response cannot be to bring down the plane," Celik told reporters. "The incident is unacceptable. Turkey cannot endure it in silence."
Reports are surfacing that Syria may have shot down a Turkish fighter jet over Syrian waters in the Mediterranean Sea. NBC's Richard Engel reports.
Syria said Friday its forces had shot down a Turkish military plane that entered its air space. The plane, an unarmed F-4, went down in the Mediterranean Sea about 8 miles away from the Syrian town of Latakia, Turkey said.
It was initially reported to be a fighter jet, but Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said Saturday it was a reconnaissance aircraft, state television TRT reported.
The incident further escalated tensions between Syria and NATO-member Turkey. The two neighbors used to be allies before the Syrian revolt began in March 2011 but Turkey has become one of the strongest critics of the Syrian regime's brutal response to the country's uprising and is playing host to civilian and military Syrian opposition groups.
'Necessary' action will be taken
Gul said that Turkey was still trying to establish the exact circumstances of the incident but said jets flying at high-speeds would at times violate other countries' air spaces for short periods of time.
"These incidents are routine," Gul said. "They are incidents that are not ill-intentioned and happen because of the speeds (of the jets)."
"Was that the case, or did (the incident) occur in our own air space, these facts will emerge," he said. "No one should have any doubt that whatever (action) is necessary will be taken."
Gul did not elaborate on what those steps would be. But Turkey said after a border shooting incident — which killed two people inside a Turkish refugee camp in April — that it would call on its NATO allies to intervene should it feel that its security was being threatened.
Syrian coast guards joined Turkish coast guards in their search for the jet's two missing crew members for a second day on Saturday, Turkey's private NTV reported. Some pieces of the wreckage had been found, Gul said, without elaborating.
Late Friday, Syria's state-run news agency, SANA, said the military spotted an "unidentified aerial target" that was flying at a low altitude and at a high speed.
"The Syrian anti-air defenses counteracted with anti-aircraft artillery, hitting it directly," SANA said. "The target turned out to be a Turkish military plane that entered Syrian airspace and was dealt with according to laws observed in such cases."
Syria claimed the jet violated its air space over territorial waters, penetrating about 0.62 miles. It said Syria forces realized that it was a Turkish jet after firing at it.
On Saturday, a top-selling Turkish newspaper, Hurriyet, accused Syria of "Playing with Fire" in its banner headline, while Vatan newspaper said Syria would "pay the price" for the attack.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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The CIA is doing their covert ops, yet "we" get upset with the Russians?
Oh, he77. Here we go again. Take a deep breath everybody, please?
Day after day these boundry smears happen around the world, (it's ok for the US to cruise the China coast but don't let it happen the other way) but a war can't be predicated on a game of chicken. It's a wash, they take their lumps, and go away.
The kid gloves are off. Turkey will no longer sit on the fence. If Gul doesn't actually invade, after another such incident, he'll start unlimited support of the rebels. The Saudi's have already said they would PAY the rebel "army". Russia is getting quieter by the day, and they have an important naval base in Syria. Even the Chinese see the writing on the wall. The only clueless one, is Assad.
.62 of a mile over the border....remember that number, that will be the margin of error that will escalate the middle east into war....Syrians are a little quick on trigger, they must be expecting a nato attack at anytime, or why else would they be so jumpy on a neighboring country's plane....I'm sure CIA is running operations as we discuss this....Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war....
Syria has been backing war within the Islamic circle for years now. Iraq and Lebanon for sure and many other countries also. Now it just did something really stupid. Assad just stepped on the bannana peel
In a related story on MSNBC...The Saudis say they are going to fund the "Rebels"...so what might have started as a civil war...has all the ingredients, for a regional war, and with Russia and China aligned with Syria...and the world's oil supply in play...Can you say Mayan?
Syria isn't a major oil producer, even if oil is a major export for it. Russia gets more oil from Iran than they do from Syria, so I doubt the Russians will do anything based solely on a threat to Syria's oil.
The Syrians had better take care not to provoke too many neighbors. It makes life tough when no one in the neighborhood likes the way you paint your house.
Sounds like a good time to listen to the Pink Floyd tune "Dogs of war".
It MAY have all the ingredients for a regional war, but Russia and China getting directly involved? Are you nuts? China and Russia are not going to get involved directly Now or in the future. Syria has no oil, China will still get it's oil from Iran and Russia has it's own and will just look for someone else to sell it's weapons to ,just like it did with Cuba. And if you believe in all that Mayan BS I quess that what happens in Syria really doesn't matter. and your keen insight to this issue as others is as worthless as your beliefs in the Mayan world ending event.
Let the Saudis do what they got to do. Lets us just stay out of this situation
Where is the Arab League
Obama is helping this situation along by placating to the Russians (only thing he knows how to do)...
Where do you think the Syrians got the arms to down the plane? Where did they get the gunships to commit the massacres? Yet Obama says the Russians are against the Syrian actions...gee Obama and I should believe you that Executive Privilege is warranted for the Holder cover-up?
To have some credibility, Turkey should honor the basic human rights of Kurds.
Why is Islamic fundamentalist govt recklessly killing Kurds including bombing their areas?
If Syria is Turkey's business, then genocides of Kurds is "world's" business too!
Night, the Russians and Chinese aren't in this for the Oil, it is all about sovereignty and their right to hold on to their own destiny. This continued destabilization of nations in the Middle East is designed to prevent any unified resistance to Western Hegemonic Dominance in the Region. The Russians and Chinese have no choice to but to resist, or someday they know that the Western Interventionists will come for them and their right to say "no we prefer to do it our own way".
Mike,
Actually China is opposed because they oppose everything America does.
Russia is involved because they have a naval base in Syria, and it is the only warm water port Russia has in the region.
Mark my words. Putin will be forced to remove Assad within 2 weeks. Russia will broker the power transfer in such a way that all sides are appeased, and they keep their port. America wont get involved because of that Russian naval base.
Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan (the list goes on and on) are thumbing their noses at us.
Is Syria playing chicken with Turkey?
Iran had something to do with the Downed Plane in Turkey. For sure.
Ahdinemajad is close friends with Syria, supported by Russia, and China. Turkey is on the border of Iran.
Why else would Assad/Syria step out of their boundaries??? Iran wants Chaos for the entire Middle East/N. Africa, so they can take the Power of Arab/African Nations.
Okay...so no one's going to bite on the Syria playing chicken with Turkey?
if syria is playing chicken with turkey, they are going to need more greece, and they had better get out the good china.
0.62 miles from the border, with a jet going in excess of mache 1 would fit the Turkish mention of "brief violations due to high speed", it really isn't that far. Now if the plane was shot down hundreds of miles past the Turkish border, there'd be a different story there.
Assad's actions here would be tantamount to an act of war. Turkey would be well within it's rights to retaliate/fight back... China's or Russia's veto at the UN Security Council could not help Assad if this was the chosen response, as Turkey wouldn't need UN approval to respond to what they could arguably define as an act (and defacto declaration) of war, by the other side. Such strike would be retalitory/defensive in nature, leaving the security council out of it.... The UN would have to be very far gone, to suggest they need to be petitioned, or grant approval, for countries to have the right to defend their own...
And if it turns out the plane really was on the Turkish side of the border at the time of impact (aka planes don't just drop straight down when shot at, they had forward momentum), then Assad has just made a massive miscalculation here, unless war is what he wants...
mike, you do know that Russia is the single largest producer of oil in the world, right?
yes, the Russians produce more oil than Saudi Arabia, look it up
Hello folks, when will we discard our Imperialistic mindset? This is just another ploy by the U.S. and their U.N. lackeys to perpetrate the war mongering and demonizing as the U.S. is trying to drum up more support for another war. We’ve caused enough trouble around the world. If you can't see that we are the instigators in most of the world's wars and displacement of millions of people who are fleeing our aggression, than you are not paying attention. If you don’t think we have been in Syria covertly arming the rebels you are in denial and forgetting about Libya. We need to stay out of other country’s civil disputes. I hope we aren’t going to go against the United Nations vote earlier this year and unilaterally go into Syria under the pretext that we need to stop the violence like we did in Libya. General Wesley Clark has stated that a Syria invasion has been pre-planned for quite awhile.
General Wesley Clark: "America will take out 7 countries in 5 years"
According to Former NATO supreme allied commander, former presidential candidate and 4 star US General Wesley Clark that they had received a memo that America is going to take out 7 countries in the Middle East starting with Iraq, Libya, Syria Lebanon Sudan, Somalia, and finally Iran. It is amazing how these things that were planned years ago and even though it is taking longer than originally planned, are being achieved in front of our eyes.
Why is it other countries feel like they have to defend their territory? Could it be that they know we have no problem invading their sovereignty just as we have done to countless other countries. Since World War II, 90% of the casualties of war are unarmed civilians. 1/3 of them children. Our victims have done nothing to us. From Palestine to Afghanistan to Iraq to Somalia to wherever our next target may be, their murders are not collateral damage, they are the nature of modern warfare. They don't hate us because of our freedoms. They hate us because every day we are funding and committing crimes against humanity. The so-called "war on terror" is a cover for our military aggression to gain control of the resources of western Asia.
This is sending the poor of this country to kill the poor of those Muslim countries. This is trading blood for oil. This is genocide, and to most of the world, we are the terrorists. In these times, remaining silent on our responsibility to the world and its future is criminal. And in light of our complicity in the supreme crimes against humanity in Iraq and Afghanistan, and ongoing violations of the U.N. Charter in International Law, how dare any American criticize the actions of legitimate resistance to illegal occupation.
We are going into Syria for a couple of reasons (yes we are in Syria with our Drones at a minimum), one, we are trying to dislodge Russia from there because they have a foothold in the Middle East via two military bases in Latakia and Tartus in Syria. Two, Syria is a strong ally of Iran. If we invade Syria we take out a strong ally and maybe incite Iran to assist giving the U.S. the reason they are looking for to attack Iran. The ultimate goal is to surround, weaken and to invade Iran. The petro dollar is at stake as other countries are switching to other forms of currency in buying Iran’s oil.
Since the Russian war in 1828, Iran has never attacked another country. We on the other hand have attacked to name a few:
Libya, Iran, Nicaragua, Haiti, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Angola, Mozambique, Honduras, Chile, Congo, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia, Angola, Columbia, Peru, Panama, Yemen, Pakistan, Grenada, Mexico, etc..
Wake up people we are being herded down the Military Industrial Complex gauntlet again to another false war to enrich the greedy Corporations and distract the American people. Did we not learn anything from the Iraq war where we have killed well over 1 million Iraqi people, lost thousands of American lives and God knows how many hundreds of billions of dollars?
Who do you support, humanity or the greedy elite?
Many of our soldiers don't fight for America, they fight for their lives and their buddies beside them, because we put them in a war zone. They're not defending our freedoms, they're laying the foundation for permanent military bases to defend the freedoms of Exxon Mobil and British Petroleum.
Face it we're Imperialists pure and simple. The elite look down on all of us as expendable chattel.
"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy" Henry Kissinger
I’m not asking you to hate war, but to love peace? War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing!
This is nonsense; the Russians don't import oil from anybody. They don't need to. Most people choose not to remember that Russia has oil reserves of their own that dwarf all of OPEC combined. Russia's concern here is that they want to maintain the dwindling sphere of Geo-political influence they have in the middle east and contain what they view as aggression on the part of NATO. They also have significant economic interests in Iran and Syria because they maintain large port facilities in both countries.
approximately 60 percent of the Bible is Prophecy go to the Website WeeklyWorldWatch from the uk
to see how the News happening today relates to things spoken of in the Bible.
There is nothing as asinine as a deluded person who can pretend the bible has the slightest relevance to current affairs...or anything else, for that matter. Fail.
Just proves War is a time honored occurrence... Marcus Antonius after the death of Caesar the Great.
No one knows what life without war would be like. Probably never will.
Turkey will eat Syria with a side of cranberry sauce
They figured it out finally,let turkey overthrow syria..Who would argue with that?
And bring the Ottomans back into regional power? Nope.
the U.S. has been pushing Turkey into war with Syria. This jet downing incident is a pre-arranged move, it could even be the pilots themselves doing it. Even if Syria did it, Turkey provoked them by sending a military jet into the neighbor's airspace. The U.S. will subdue Syria before it can handle Iran, and the easiest way for a war-tired U.S. is to push Turkey ahead with some NATO support. I don't know what they promised to Turkey, maybe finishing the PKK, the Kurdish military group that killed 30,000 people since 80's. If Assad is smart enough to swallow his pride, apologize and offer compensation to Turkey, he may just postpone a war. And note the preseding incidents: Turkey p.m. Erdogan meeting with Obama; PKK attacking Turkish military post killing 12 soldiers, Turkish people protesting everywhere and demanding PKK to be wiped out; Turkish Jet crossing Syrian Border and getting hit. c'mon U.S., that is too cliche, come up with something better. We Turks watched this movie so many times and not buying this B.S.
"It was initially reported to be a fighter jet, but Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said Saturday it was a reconnaissance aircraft,"
Turkish leaders don't know what they are talking. You can't expect much from them without NATO forces help!
They can kill or bomb unarmed Kurds at best!
Turkey doesn't kill or bomb unarmed Kurds. They are at war with the PKK, a separatist group that is heavily armed and classified as a terror organization by the US, EU and Turkey.
Man, the ignorance on this thread is appalling. If Turkey, the second largest force in NATO (and largest ground force) goes after Syria, it won't be with F-4s. It'll be with F-4s, 18s and 22, and drones. Should take about an hour. Or the could just flatten them from the sea.
Syria made a huge, and possibly fatal, mistake here.
I bet the US is staging this...The US is really trying to get into Syria....this way they can get into Iran.
If "Turkish Aircraft" invaded Syria's airspace, flying at high speeds and low....Syria has the right to defend themselves!
Whether the U.S. -- rather, the CIA -- is behind the shooting down of the Turkish jet or not, one thing is EXTREMELY clear. Whoever pushed the button sending the artillery towards that airplane did it BEFORE the airplane even reached the border. The jet was 0.62 miles into Syrian airspace.
Looks to me like the Syrian Dictator is looking for a war.
Dennis P McCann
No, but they have killed, shot, bombed and tortured Armenians. And the Turkish Government still has not even tried to apologize for that part of its past.
It is very easy to point fingers at others for doing what "you" are equally guilty of doing. (it's the generic "you", not the specific one)
Turkey leave NATO out of this. You only contributed less than 2k troops in Afghanistan and restrict them to non combat roles. You lost a airplane and maybe two crewmen. We had two cities attacked and thousands killed and you ponied up a paltry 2K troops to the ISAF. It truly should be called I Saw Americans Fighting. 2977 dead from 911 not counting first responders who are dying now. You sent 2k troops. You lost two. We should send you a case of MREs. That is a proportional response in my book.
Dennis P McCann
Dennis, the same was said about Iraq in general AND Osama bin Laden, yet here we all are more than 10 years later...and Osama bin Laden had to be tracked down on the ground using old-fashioned human spies.
I would put nothing out of the realm of believability, with our military, since Vietnam. But this incedent isn't a certified American plot. As one poster noted, at the beginning of the previous century, Syria, and a large part of the Middle East was part of the Ottoman Empire. The Kurdish rebels that Turkey has been trying to subdue are determined to recreate Kurdistan. Look it up on the net, and then put what was Kurdistan over a more modern map of the Middle East. Do this, and unless you're a moron you will see the problem of bringing Kurdistan back from the dead. If Syria falls, the clamoring for a return of this long gone nation will hit fever pitch. The North defeated the South nearly a century and a half ago, and we have pretty much put it behind us. But, in the Old World, wars fought centuries ago are still fresh. If your entire peoples have been humiliated, for cebturies on end, it kind of sticks. When you live most of your life within fifty miles of your home village, that's what matters with you. Many of these people have done just that. A war between Turkey, and Syria would shake the entire world. Our wars with Iraq, allowed the Kurds in the northen part of Iraq a large amount of autonomy. If Syria's Kurds were to gain the same thing in that nation, how would anybody stabalize that part of the planet. Six nations have large Kurdish minorities, most of whom would relish re-establishing their nation.
Turks have F4s and F16s I believe, so it's either 2 or 1 passengers.
yep, the tinfoil hat crowd is coming out of the woodwork
It's between Turkey and Syria the US should stay out of it.
Just because I'm ignorant doesn't mean I can't give my uneducated opinion. Know what I bet? I bet it was the Romulans. So many idiots, so little bandwidth.
after reading some of these posts I am certain there are far more stupid people in the US with a computer an the internet then I thought- God help us all.
Devil's Son, Turkey was not required to "pony up" any troops at all. The NATO agreement/treaty is about DEFENSE, not offense. The U.S. Government decided, via George W. Bush's edict, that it would declare war against any/all Nations harboring the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The U.S. declared war, therefor the U.S. was/is in the OFFENSIVE position.
Please go back to school so that you might actually learn how to read the treaties you try to use to justify your biased (and ignorant) opinions.
Lady Cat
So, should the U.S. go to war with yet another Sovereign Nation, should the rest of the world just stay out of it? Should the U.S. have just stayed out of the war between France and Germany, or between Britain and Germany?
Gosh, what would have happened if France had stayed out of the "American" Civil War in the 1860s..........
Turkey didn't exist until 1923. Whatever happened, it was in 1915, under Ottoman Rule. Turkey apologizing for that would be like the US apologizing for King George's actions in the 1760s. Nevertheless, it's irrelevant to this discussion.
Yep, and we conquered Iraq in three days. It was the occupation that has lasted this long - and no one has said anything about occupying Syria.
Besides, entirely different situation involving entirely different nations.
How about sticking to what's going on now?
Let me give you folks an idea about this:
1) The F-4 Phantom flies at 1,485 MPH.
2) That is 24.75 miles per minutes
3) That is .4125 miles per second
To hit that target they had to shot prior to it crossing the border and had to hit it on the other side of the border just to have it comedown .062 miles across the boarder (unless it was traveling parallel to the board after crossing - which would have been obvious on radar that it wasn't supposed to be across the boarder).
Still think the shooting wasn't an offensive act against Turkey?
"Everything that needed to be done following the incident would be done"???
Alright, then can we expect them to apologize to Assad and Syria for violating its sovereignty? They had the right to destroy that aircraft even though it was probably staged for the benefit of the warmongers. Others have mentioned this but it is probably true. The US agenda is to destroy Assad. It doesn't care about civilians. It only wants regime change like in Libya. Turkey is the puppet of the imperialist US.
And it was said that removing Qaddafi from control of Libya would take 1 week at most. Eight months later, he was finally assassinated. Of course, the Libya is a nasty bed of torturing of any one with colored skin now.
Dennis, Turkey existed before and during the Ottoman Empire (those responsible for the genocide called themselves Turks, and the Australians, French and British forces fought Turks in WW1, not "Ottomans") -- and the Turkish Government was killing Armenians in and after 1923. You saying otherwise is like saying that the U.S. Government never killed "Indians" in Colorado, Arizona or Texas simply because it happened before Colorado, Arizona and Texas were States of the U.S. at the time.
And the U.S. did not conquer Iraq in only tree days -- Saddam's elite forces may have surrendered after three days, but Iraq was not conquered, not even after three years. A Nation is not just a government.
The people in this part of the world will never stop fighting. Too many people in one place who all have to believe in a different "religion" or whatever else they can use to get what they want. Combine this with our present U.S government hell bent on greed and making profit out of war and it's a perfect match. We don't have people leading us anymore for our own good, people lead now to get rich. Greed will bring the whole world back to the jungle sooner than we think. The U. S and South America will soon reach the too many people in one place unbalance and it will all happen here too. And could you get these stupid newer and older tabs out of my face? LOL!
@agnon mema, I had to do some head scratchen but your right about the Ottoman Empire falling just before the start of WWI. I can't remember excatly how long it was but the Ottomans lasted for over 800 years. If my memory is working.
History is great , but the future is coming fast, Here is a chance for Turkey to get into someting that everyone wants to get into , but knows they shouldn't. I am so proud that so many think the US is manipulating this whole thing. We can't control our own crap , let alone convince any other nation into war. We are the puppets of the moneyed on earth, there is nn money to be made here , so we won't be pushing in.
Let's hope that the fool Asaad gives up before his future is that of ALL the dictator types that cared not for the lowly lives beneath them. The reaso i say hope is for the innocents that die for liberty, not Asaad.
Well an aircraft traveling at mach 1 would take less than 0.1 second to travel 1.25 miles and it was only 0.62 miles inside Syria, if it actually was. 5/8 of a mile in supersonic aircraft is not very much, seems Syria is looking to shoot anything down that flies near them. They will get their asses shot up doin this kinda stuff. Using F4's that is an old vietnam era plane with very antiquated avionics at best.
@ Agnon Mema-
in your earlier post you posed a question about France being involved in the American Civil War, but France wasn't very involved in our civil war except they hoped for a Confederate victory, because of the textile plants and the doubling of cotton prices caused by the Union blockade. France on the other hand was involved in the American Revolution, not so much to help us, but because we were at war with Britain. It is not likely we would have won the American Revolution without Frances help, but a lot of Americans have forgotten this fact.
"Gosh, what would have happened if France had stayed out of the "American" Civil War in the 1860s.........."
Agnon Mema, The NATO Charter clearly state that a attack on one or more member nations is a attack on all member nations in article 5.
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
So yes they were rquired to PONY UP more than a token amount as were all members of NATO and none did. 50K US troops in Germany alone protecting NATO countries and they do so little for us. Bring the troops home from Europe and get out of NATO. Let their young men and women pick up rifles and walk a post for a change. Let their taxpayers foot the bill for their own self defense.
bout time someone starts treating this like it should end. Hopefully Turkey takes the lead on this now and it can end. Pointless to continue letting a fully armed military shoot up poorly armed civilians just because we dont like making decisions.
Agreed, but doesn't Turkey basically shoot up its civilians also? The Kurds come to mind. But I could be wrong
Nahhhh ... Turkey murders Armenians wholesale.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide)
Excuse me ... that was Greek Cypriots.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus)
But there's one thing for sure. The Turks have always enjoyed a good blood bath
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign#Casualties)
Hope you know about Kurdish issue in Turkey.
We should not bother much what these Muslims nations do! Let them battle and kill each other as many as they like.
Just keep away!
Iraqi wars were just to save the save the barbaric, despotic, autocratic, bigoted Sunni Saudi, Kuwaiti, UAE rulers.
In return, they got busy along with oil companies to manipulate oil prices of $30 before 1991 during the height of Iraq to $145.
These same barbaric gangs of Saudis and co are busy raising oil prices from $40 in 2009 to now around $100 with sanctions on Iranian oil.
It seems Saddam sent his WMDs in his last days to Iran!!!!!
They made themselves richer with Iraqi wars and most of us poorer.
If we fall into their Iranian and Syrian traps most will be bankrupt just like Greece, Spain, and long list in PIIGS.
Yes, lets just let them destroy each other and us along with it.... You dumb a$$es don't realize if we do not intervene these sand lovers are going to fire off nukes at one another in which will cause earth to be not suitable for us humans or any other species!!!!!
Like Hiroshima?
Actually, it would be at least a thousand times worse than Hiroshima. Current estimates place the force of the Hiroshima bomb at 13-18 kilotons. Modern nuclear warheads are measured in megatons, the average payload being 20-30 megatons. Not only is each modern nuclear bomb 1000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb, there are a lot more of them and a lot of them are attached to missiles. If any idiotic countries decide to nuke each other, life on Earth is doomed.
Hey I suggest we start with your family, your kids, they can go fight for some Syrian freedom. Why dont you become a mercenary and start your own covert war Rambo. This is civil war those people have to figure this out on their own, not us.
People, there is no conflict with the Kurds in Turkey. The conflict is with the PKK, a terror group comprised of Turkish Kurds, that in no way represents the Kurdish people in Turkey. In fact, the Kurdish people here hate the PKK more than the Turks do.
I live in Turkey, and have for the past 8 years. I can't believe the amount of misinformation in this thread.
The US is droning their own citizens....they will be killing their own citizens too. People dont realize that this type of @!$%# happens everywhere, however the US only shows specifics and blasts the media so we can fear this (middle east) region. The US is starting all these semtiments. We illegally go in, occupy their territories, claim it is in peace, while we kill their citizens, families, and say.."oh sorry" as if thir lives are worth any less? Then we display it on our news like we are heroes....however we just invaded and killed, but then say we are civilized and peaceful??? How hypocrtical!
We are trying to police the world...not even police the world...we are trying to control the world! Its bull@!$%#!
Uh, aren't the guys in the PKK Kurdish Rebels? Get the maps, and take a look at the big picture. Grudges die hard inn that portion of the planet.
no, current strategic nukes in the US arsenal are between 100kt and 1.2 mt, tactical nukes are usually less than 10 kt, some nuclear bombs like the B-61 are "selectable" from 0.3kt to 340 kt
we did have bombs as large as 25mt, but those really big ones have all been retired
the largest bomb that the US has now is 1.2 Mt (megaton)
They're a Turkish Kurd Fringe group. They do not have the support of the Kurdish population of Turkey.
Dennis P McCann
They're still KURDS. But the Turkish Government "doesn't kill Kurds".......... Just like Armenians were never killed by any Turkish government, not even when it was "The Ottoman Empire".
Are you and your buddies in your trailer park plotting a coup, Tex?
Chris, I certainly could be wrong about this, but neither Syria or Turkey have ANY nuclear weapons. The only nukes in the Middle East are in Israel* and they'll only use them if they're on the brink of annihilation, which isn't going to happen because...they're the only ones in the Mid East that have nukes.
It remains to be seen whether Iran will ultimately make any nukes. I doubt it because the closest allies of the US in the region are Israel, Saudi Arabia. Those two are totally freaked out at the prospect, so we're not about to let it happen. In the end Israel, on their own or as our proxy, will decide whether or not Iran gets nukes. The only thing stopping them until now was the fact that they'll have to fly over Iraqi airspace and re-fuel in flight. While we were in Iraq we controlled the airspace and we wouldn't allow it.
* Pakistan has nukes and one could maybe make the argument that Pak. is in the M.E. However Pakistan couldn't care less about any of this. They've got too many problems of their own and all of their nukes are aimed at India.
well turkey lurkey are you feel'n lucky...come a cross the border they will pluck ya...
when some body invades your country by ground or air...you should shoot first ask questions later if it's of that country interest...fly'n into a waring nations air space ain't cool...
Shoot first and ask questions later......
Hey, how did that work out for Georgia when Putin's troops were in South Ossetia?
Maybe it's better to check who's dog's bigger before you shoot first?
Shoot first ask questions later leads to world wars and many deaths. I do not understand how two countries that share a border are not in touch with each other to prevent the unneeded downing of a plane. Minor border incidents can happen and do all the time. Planes instrument go off for a few seconds miss a turn etc.
No one has said the velocity of the F-4 they shot down, but if it was travelling 600mph it would cover .62 miles in under 4 seconds.
They are also not saying for how long the flight was .62 miles over the border, but if it was an in-and-out it wouldn't have been for very long.
Perhaps. But, when their country is facing worldwide condemnation, one would expect them to think twice before taking any provactive action.
patrick..f-4 would have been and gone in this shoot out. they had too be aimimg on the plane the whole time for a shoot down. syria was at fault and should get a full response from turkey. whoooua! the war is own!
danny p
Let's put this in perspective. Assuming that the F4 was cruising at 510kts, and taking from the article that the incusrion was .6 miles (.5 NM); it means that the Turkish airplane was over Syria for a total of 3.6 seconds before it was downed.
Shoot first indeed. I hope cooler heads prevail and this does not turn into another American/Russian proxy war.
JM and Patrick... by the way you both describe it, it actually sounds more like Syria had been tracking the plane long before it came into their airspace. And considering that the firing took place from land, and the plane was out over the water, is it possible that they fired BEFORE the plane entered Syrian airspace?
The F-4, while antiquated as a fighter these days, remains one of the fastest jets and can easlily exceed Mach 2 with typical speeds of over 900 mph.
Porter,
According to the specs, the cruise speed of an F4 is 510kts (I looked it up before I did the math). Top speed is 1200kts but that would be at military power which would drain your tanks in a hurry.
But let's not split hairs, the dude was in Syrian space anywhere from 2 seconds (at 900kts) or 3.6 seconds (at 510kts). And yes, I'm a pilot, an airplane geek, and own an E6B flight computer :).
I have heard some interesting things about the flight of this aircraft, which if in USAF inventory, would be designated as an RF-4. I'm not sure just what the Turks call them!
Anyway, local witnesses in Turkey reported to commercial news organizations that the jet was traveling very fast at treetop level, and that they had been concerned that it might clip roofs of buildings in their seaside town before it headed out over the water.
The border which the jet crossed by about a kilometer lies on the Mediterranean, so this border was Syria's territorial waters.
Syria claims the jet was downed with a direct hit by an antiaircraft artillery gun, which could certainly be possible, but does seem to be to be at least somewhat less than likely under these circumstances. 'AAA' against fast moving low targets tends not to work so well, though it does very well against bombers and similar aircraft at moderate altitudes. 'AA' that works effectively against strafing attacks and other instances where the targets are low and moving quickly tend to be heavy machine guns (similar to a quad .50 mount) or light cannons, such as a 20mm Gatling gun or similar. It generally has to be something that can traverse quickly enough to get the appropriate lead needed to park a shell or a bead of projectiles in front of the aircraft. To do this with AAA might indicate that the jet was coming straight toward the gun or else it was just one heck of a 'lucky' shot by the gun crew.
I would not overlook the possibility that perhaps the F4 was having some mechanical problems (keeping in mind that it's probably going to be 40-50 years old and who knows what the current state of maintenance in the Turkish armed forces is these days) and the pilot decided it was best to head out to the water to ditch the aircraft. If this was to be the case, I'd bet the plane was not travelling at 500 kts anymore and had probably would have become a very easy target in its final moments.
Just a thought.
i hope turkey gives it to syria in spades.
You guys doing the math aren't thinking right. You are assuming the jet is flying in a straight line for .62 miles. This is not the case. The aircraft penetrated Syrian airspace by .62 miles. If that were a straight line in and out then the aircraft would be over Syrian air space for 6 to 8 seconds and that would be only if it didn't have to slow down to turn around. More than likely, if the aircraft penetrated the air space, even as part of a turn, it would be over Syrian airspace for at least 10 seconds. If this wasn't just a turn around, the jet could have been over Syrian airspace for some minutes, with the deepest penetration being .62 miles.
Mike, this is exactly what they're suggesting. And it's also a rational argument. They'd have to acquire a lock on the plane, before firing, unless they were to shoot blindly . When we're talking a distance traversed being a matter of mere seconds given the speed of the plane, this would fit in with what the Turkish official was saying, as I mentioned earlier, and as people here are mentioning. We're not talking a hard crossing.
Now to avoid the time delay to acquire target, we'd be talking about them tracking the plane, perhaps waiting for and anticipating the perfect opportunity to "fire, to make it look like they were invading our border space". It's not unreasonable to assume that Syria wanted the conflict or wanted to down the plane, all along... 4 seconds is not an awful long time to have been over the border, and given the time to acquire target, and to fire.... Yes this is what they're suggesting, it was tracked, and perhaps the decision was made to shoot down the plane before it left Turkish air space...
Also, if Syria's thinking were "shoot first", not withstanding the time involved in getting the target, should there be those in the international community who want a military option against Syria, but who had been blocked by China and Russia, this attack could give, just the excuse needed to bypass the UN and the security council.... China and Russia would have a hard time supporting this attack, and might well, at this point be telling Assad "you're an idiot. And if you want our protection from the international community, there's now a limit to what we can credibly do, depending on who calls for what, against your country, at this point".
"when some body invades your country by ground or air...you should shoot first ask questions later if it's of that country interest...fly'n into a waring nations air space ain't cool..."
Maybe I'm not thinking clearly, but I don't think ONE UNARMED PLANE flying .6 miles into their airspace for 3 or 4 seconds constitutes an invasion.
Yeah...its about 3,274 feet or about 12 average city blocks.
plain bob
Wow, you sure do not understand how long, or how much distance it takes for a jet flying at high speed to turn even 90 degrees. How about if it was a U.S. jet, and the pilot simply didn't know he/she was that close to the Syrian border? (here's a hint for you, bob: There is no actual line on the ground or in the water to show where the border is) Hey, bob, the jet was an F-4, a Vietnam-era airplane known as a "flying brick" (anyone who has ever flown one is very well acquainted with the phrase "give a brick enough thrust and it will be capable of sustained flight"); it is definitely NOT a very nimble or maneuverable jet-propelled airplane (it REQUIRES full after-burner just to get off the ground).
I know about the F-4 because I used to work on F-4s.
WHEN plain bob accidentally "invades" the wrong neighborhood, I do hope that nobody decides to shoot first and ask questions later......
Mike-583206
Mike, the answer to your question is..... Yes.
tiredofhypocrites-794827
Ok, so instead of the jet being in Syrian airspace for 5 seconds, it was actually 10 seconds -- but it is still a matter of seconds. The land-based Syrian forces had to be tracking that jet and shoot at it BEFORE it crossed the border.
Turkey and Syria share a border. The Hatay province mentioned in the article is in Turkey. This plane was barely out of Turkish airspace, and only for a matter of seconds.
Dead on with some of your comments Agnon. The F-4 is like flying a school bus and turning one is no better although it is super fast, as said it was referred to as the flying brick. At first I was thinking of an F-5 which would have been a whole different story as the F-5 turns on a dime. Just because it was only .62 miles into Syria does not mean it was only in Syrian A.S. for a few seconds as it could have been flying over but along the boarder(parallel) or even in the midst of a turn which would have put it there for some time. Plus most defenses in wartime will track any aircraft when near or approacing it's boarder so tracking it in Turkish A.S. would not have been unusual
Wiki also shows Turkey as having the F4E models either from the US or old Germany inventory. The F4 E used the J79 which are huge smoke belching engines that produce massive amounts of heat so they are easy to lock onto. Also in 1995, IAI of Israel implemented an upgrade similar to Kurnass 2000 on 54 Turkish F-4Es
And as anyone who has ever worked on an F-4 knows, they leak like an old, worn-out engine. If an F-4 comes back from even a five-minute flight and nothing has leaked -- it gets grounded until the problem/malfunction is found and fixed. An F-4 is NOT a modern, highly-maneuverable aircraft, no matter how many electronic gadgets happen to be in/on it.
Actually you guys can argue about a few seconds all day and not accomplish much. If it was in syrian air space for 6-8 seconds you cannot man the radar and load the guns (They did say it was shot down by ground artillary), and fire in that time frame. They were tracking this plane all along and in a firing position. Which tells me they have radar and are manning it 24/7. I'm almost willing to bet they tracked this plane very shortly after take off. Radar guided artillary came into being just before the surrender of Germany WWII.
Syria is out of control, let Turkey take care of them, it's their neighbor and Nato will back them up. Let the neighbors do their job, not our job to police the world.
You do realise that if NATO backs Turkey that would include the United States as well, being the US as a NATO member would be treaty bound to provide support if NATO as a whole agrees to intervene.
You do realize that the USA is in NATO. So by your scenario, we would be involved.
StunnedByTheAge
You also realize that the U.S. could provide humanitarian aid only under the auspices of the U.N.
You do realize U.S. is a member of NATO and as such when one member gets involved with something, all other members are REQUIRED to help.
Does anybody here read the whole article or do they just jump on the headline? I perceive nothing serious will come of it.
Tell Mr. Putin that we will put modernized Jupiter IRBMs back in Turkey.
The mutual support requirement is defensive, not offensive. For instance, NATO countries were not REQUIRED to get involved in Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada and other US actions over the years because these were offensive, not defensive operations. On the other hand, mutual defense was invoked by the alliance on 9/11 for the first time ever.
Yeah, just what we need just about now, another arms race.
car56 You said:
"You do realize U.S. is a member of NATO and as such when one member gets involved with something, all other members are REQUIRED to help.'
Come-on Buddy, look at Libya. The U.S. provided only non-combative support.
You kind of contridicted yourself by saying NATO was not required to enter Afghanistan, yet also saying that the mutual defense was envoked, there by allowing NATO to enter Afghanistan.
So, I guess that F-15E that went down over Libya while carrying ground attack ordnance (crew rescued by the Libyan rebels) was just there sight seeing, or the Marine Harriers flew sorties against rocks and dust, and not Libyan tanks.
And yet we did provide tactical as well as command and control capabilities to the field. Our planes weren't out of it... Lets be honest here. Does anyone really expect NATO to take actions in which the US has no part, whatsoever in the battle. From mid-air re-fueling capability, to the assistance of our intelligence gathering capability, to precisely the form of support we DID offer in Libya? The US isn't just a member of NATO, we're one of the largest members of it. How much could NATO really do, if we took no part at all?
tbh, I think the way we went about it in Libya has it's benefits, in that if we want other member countries to take a bigger brunt of things, it could also help provide the actual experience and training they would need in order to be able to take a larger role in such measures moving ahead (hence taking some of the brunt of it off of us). But, and this said, does one really think all these NATO countries would be ready to head up an operation as such entirely on their own, with the US providing nothing more then food and humanitarian aid? I'm just not sure we're at the point where they could do it all on their own, without us providing any military role at all.... At the very least, I'd sorta expect us to take an advisory role, things sitting where they do with all these various countries now, and this would also be consistent with some statements Panneta has made of late....
I said no such thing. Mutual defense was invoked on 9/11 and other NATO countries provided logistical support to enable the US to redeploy some air assets to domestic soil to defend against further attacks (which didn't come). This action did not require NATO to participate in the invasion of Afghanistan.
I hope this quote was a joke or sarcasm as it is total BS. The US used Tomahawks and a bunch of them, like they got them at a Cosco sale and they had to used them up. We also had many types of aircraft in ground attack and air support for the No Fly Zone(well atleast for libya) To use aicraft and missle this also requires ground support for targeting and each ground troop requires about 5 personal wach(avg) for support. I would also quess that we had other special forces their as the US even used a Delta Team in Waco TX and good ole Cankles Clinton herself helped with the coverup and destuction of evidence
to 'plain bob',
obviously you have NO idea just how good the Turkish military is. and how tough. i served in our ( U.S.) air force over there, and am glad they are our ally, as they are well trained, equipped , and PROUD!
not to mention, they fight dirty if they have to !!!
So let them fight the idf thugs.
Well said Steve.
Some people think that middle east countries are camel riding third world nobodies...yet under the camels saddle, out comes an RPG. (Sarcasm intended)
STEVEW220, You are correct abouit the Turks. Their location has historically made their land attractive to invaders and they learned a long time ago that to survive they need to be the meanest sob's in the fight.
They fight dirty - THEY ARE DIRTY!!!
commonsenseaintcommon - did you take history classes at all? If yes who was your teacher? Oh yeah, you don't need to know anything outside of US border. So why say things you don't have any clue?
Maybe Armenians, Kurds or Greeks tried to invade their land, hah??
Hovik
And you probably smell "funny". Enough with the bigotry, fool.
Hovik
Maybe YOU haven't been paying attention to U.S. history.... I guess the "savage, unwashed" Native Americans tried to invade their own land, too. You seem to be hypocritical, Hovik.
They have a long record of being a tough foe. Ask the British and Commonwealth lads from WWI. They backed us up in the Korean war with a loss of over 700 men. I would rather have them as friends than enemies.
i wish canada would stop the flow of illegals into our country...and the american military ain't doing crap to stop it...real proud of our military...
plain bob, or should you address yourself "Armchair Quarterback": What do you propose the military do about the influx of illegal immigrants? Let us not forget, the military takes its orders from the Commander in Chief.
Having served, I AM DAMN PROUD OF OUR MILITARY!!!
The military can't conduct law enforcement duties unless an emergency is declared, per the Posse Commitatus act and its various additions and provisions. The only military forces that can do law enforcement are the National Guard (when still under state control) and the Coast Guard.
Having not served I, too, am DAMN proud of our military! sftu bob...
Plain Bob do some reading even a high schooler knows the military can only intervene in domestics in an emergency. Want to stop illegals? Put the people in jail who hire them but that would be something the 1% would not have. Illegals are here to keep your paycheck down and mine.
Plain Bob you are uneducated and foolish and what a steamy pile of dung you left masquerading as an opinion. What the hell does Canada have to do with illegals??? AND our military is NOT used for law enforcement except for National guard in state emergencies.
The Posse Commitatus Act prohibits most of the military from becoming involved in domestic law enforcement activity. It does not not prohibit them from taking an active role in border security, which is not a domestic law enforcement duty but rather a matter of national security. It is their sworn duty to protect this country against invasion by foreign nationals, whether they are military or civilian.
pb,
One of us is confused. How did Canada and illegals make into this thread?
Well, JM-1992894, see, if the jet is a filthy illegal immigrant, and Greenland represents the Meditteranean coastline... or, North Dakota... and Syria represents the US Border Patrol... then, gnomes. See? It's all so very simple.
While it may be easier for illegals to cross the US/Canada border and I am sure many do, it is the US/Mexico Border that is the problem. What harm would it be to station the military there to help stop the crossings? It would be good practus and give our troops hands on training.
JM threads tend to morph, but plain bob was correct, but choose a lesser topic to consider.
In reference to Posse Comitatus, there is a huge difference between an invasion and illegal immigration. To call the current illegal immigration problem an invasion would be a very slippery slope, both legally and politically.
What possible reason would we have to close up the US/Canadian border, when a great number of the illegals seem to come over the Mexican border? Mexico is a poor country, with people trying to escape the hell hole, and unfortunately they do so the illegal way (vs applying for immigration status through proper channels, or working to improve their own country so it isn't a hell hole). Canadians themselves don't have financial incentive to try to leave Canada, and the US and Canada don't have the sort of relations which would necessitate we change our border policies with them. There really isn't a problem between the US and Canada... It's odd you mention this border, rather then the Mexican...
And as to the military, what do you expect? Them to go out and start shooting, without receiving the necessary orders from their own COs, and through the chain of command? You do realize that they could be up for disciplinary action if they did as YOU wish, right?
When "plain bob" shows some sort of proof that "he" either has served or is serving in the U.S. Military -- such as actual knowledge of the U.S. Military, THEN "he " can bad-mouth the U.S. Military.
And if "he" is so against "illegal aliens" entering the U.S. and "stealing U.S. jobs" -- then "he" should start hollering at all the employers who willingly and willfully hire those "illegal aliens".
our politicians...have sold this country out...16 million have invaded this country illegally... they give us story a bout a country that keeps illegals out... ya'll get real testy...might i add corporate controls the media...the same one's corporations who off shore job's and hire green cards before americans...holler back at me for being for being american and wanting to have american values not sell them or give them to another nation ...so we can become third world...
WTF does ANY of this have to do with the article??
plain bob: Not only are your opions poorly founded, but your use of English is also deplorable. Are you possibly an immigrant ... from the planet Ur-Anus?
This is a major foreign policy boon for the US.. Turkey is an excellent ally. We have to get Colin Powell in there as SecState for credibility issues instead of...what's her name.
Couldn't we have Colin Powell as President instead of Tweedledee or Tweedledum? The current 2 choices leave a lot to be desired!
Gen. Powell won't even let us DRAFT him, for President. He's had enough of the Washington BS.
Roadkill
In addition to that he might also be considering the fact that , given this administrations continued disingenuouse claims of " Racism " nearly everytime their policies are questioned, it might be very difficult for many of us to vote for any minority for a while. That is just another, in a long line of many, " unintended consequences " engendered by this administrations tactics!
What? pure idiocy there and a damn lie.
ted,
please provide links to the administration claims of racism on their policies.
I agree with lynseypug ... I want Colin Powell for president. The problem is, he's probably a Republican and he is far too intelligent and moderate to be acceptable to the tea party nuts that run the GOP.
There are Plenty of ethnic people out there that would be good canidates for office. The Tea Party has such little say (even in the house where they are strongest). to effect much. The problem would be to find a canidate that could survive the Liberal media's onslought, of reportiors going out of their way to find/make up stories about them. Look at what happened to Pailin, Cain, and all the Republican canidates running for office.
I would like to see Powell run as vp with Obama !!!!
here we go.....making this a political thread....stay on subject or go away!
You can't find any better examples than those idiots? Don't blame the "liberal press" just because even the radical members of the GOP recognized that they weren't qualified to be president.
Powell gave the bogus yellow cake speech at the UN for the Bushistas.
AH ha ! SO ! Turkey was flying over Syrian waters and in their airspace. Not good. With what's going on in Syria right now I can see them shooting first and asking questions later.
Just what the world needs right now. More logs on the fire. Perhaps since Turkey AND Russia are both Nato countrys maybe together they can keep their heads cool and NOT turn this incident into a full blown war between nations. I hope the pilots survived and can be returned to Turkey asap.
Fran NJ - Wake me up!!! When did Russia join NATO?
This is the 2nd post on this site and story where people don't seem to know what NATO is.
Trolls are minimum wagers and not educated at all. Some of the things they post are hilarious until you think that there are those who take them to heart. Sad sad sad
Ok the ignorance on this board about what is and isnt NATO is astounding. First the US is in NATO! Second Russia is NOT in NATO!
Damn take a moment to go read!
www dot NATO dot INT
I always thought that Russia (formerly USSR) was a member if the Warsaw Pact (I need to check, but is the Warsaw Pact still considered a bloc of countries?)
Fran, You remind me of the old saying, "better to be thought a fool and remain silent than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
Perhaps Fran was confused by the fact that Russia has an observer at NATO in Brussels.
Ed the Warsaw Pact disappeared with the USSR.
xvet
xvet , i was going to tell them the same thing about the Warsaw pact but you came on and told her. i seen your name as xvet and that's why i was wanting to say that if you are or use to be in are armed forces , that i thank you for serving for our country , if you fought or not or were you a animal vet? sorry if i made a mistake?
Thank god I am not the only one who was a bit confused there. Sometimes we read things and forget that not everything you read is true.
Fran NJ
Did you even bother to READ the article?
breadex
Many of the trolls are COLLEGE GRADUATES and make more than $60,000 a year. Of course, it may be that you, breadex, are one of those low-wage uneducated people.......
The Turks are upset that the Syrian government is repressing its own people? What about the Turkish government's repression of its large Kurdish minority? Oh, the Kurds have used violence against the Turkish governbment? What do you think the anti-Assad forces have been up to?
The whole of the Near East is a morass of hypocrisy and instability. Given the interest of other nations in its oil riches, it is the most likely -- or only -- place on earth where another world war is likely to be ignited.
The kurds want autonomy ad commit acts against the government of Turkey. They also want it in Iraq and there are now permitted to allmost be there. The news of autrocities from both sides and the stanglehold on news out of that country makes on wonder what really is the case. The govermnet did try to make peace and for a long time now it has been quiet because Turkey wanted to stay in NATO.
Kurds in Turkey have the rights of a citizen. Turkey does not kill Kurdish people. Kurds have served as president. Kurdish language is not forbidden. In fact Kurdish language can be listed as a pre-req for local government jobs. Kurdish rebellion started as a Marxist-Leninist organization with a communist agenda. When the soviet block collapsed, the Kurdish story changed to independence. Then when that seemed too hard, they changed to autonomy. The truth is the Kurdish rebellion is an organization that sells it's services to the enemies of Turkey. Depending on time, these include Syria, Iran, Israel, Greece, Armenia, Russia and the US. This way the leaders make money while the poor Kurd thinks he fights for freedom and he dies along with the poor Turk. It is a game played since ages. The Turkish military welcomes the challenge because the threat of terror keeps the army in action and gives the generals a sense of importance. It also gives Turkey the bargaining power on arms purchases and sales. European arms are typically not used in conflicts unless they sell them to Turkey to get them battle tested. Same with Turkish arms. They then can go to other customers and claim that the arms are used in battle. Thus there are beneficiaries who benefit from the Kurdish rebellion and they use people's dreams of freedom to get richer. They incite revolt for their ulterior motives.
Thank you, Mikem2. Finally someone with an idea what's going on here.
Turkey is fighting the PKK, not the Kurdish people of Turkey - and a large percentage of the Turkish military doing that fighting is of Kurdish descent themselves. The Kurds in Turkey hate the PKK with a passion.
As for Syria - they just @!$%#ed with the regional superpower. If Turkey goes after them, they'll flatten Syria before you see it coming.
No, Turkey doesn't kill Kurds, only a repressive Government would ever kill its own Citizens, no matter their ethnic heritage or the language they happen to speak...but Turkey HAS killed Armenians.
Why is NATO jet flying over other country aquatory ?!
Firstly - shot it down and only than go and demand explanations. Military toys are not to play with ...
Turkey was flying a jet over water. Not NATO! Damn the ignorance of some posters! Sheesh!
That person does not talk like they are from the US.
GetOverYourSelf,
Technically Alexander is right. Turkey is in NATO and therefore one can consider their militaty hardware NATO hardware. Not as ignorant as you think he is.
All countries that have borders that have contact with Large lakes, seas and oceans, have what is known as Territoral waters, the water, below the water, and air about the water is considered territory of that country. So the jet was in Syrian territory. Since Turkey is a NATO member, it is a NATO jet. That is the problem with Treaties, all members accept the responsibility of all other members, and the Liablities also.
breadex
That is because this is an INTERNATIONAL forum, it is not just for U.S. Citizens. Your pointing out that someone doesn't talk like they're from the U.S. just shows your own prejudice -- and ignorance.
According to your logic, Turkey was responsible when we invaded, say, Panama or Grenada? Of course it wasn't. NATO is a defense alliance, not a marriage. Also, not all military assets of a country are under NATO control. For instance, the Supreme Commander of NATO (always an American) has no control over an aircraft carrier operating in the Pacific, unless the Pentagon gives it to him. It has to be that way because any given nation may be a participant in more than one mutual-defense treaty. It is very far-fetched to claim that because the jet belonged to a NATO member, that it also belongs to (and operates under the authority of) NATO.
The F4 was flying at low altitude when it was hit. The pilots might not have enough time to escape. If the combine Turkey and Syria Coast Guards can not find them yet, I think they were killed!
A F4 is not a flying brick. It is as fast as any modern fighter (mach 2 plus). Its handling and fuel consumption are worse than an F16, but if it was equipped with up-to-date electronic counter measures, any other modern fighter will also be shot down by Syria air defense.
You do have to laugh that it appears to be OK to 'veer into a neighbor's country due to your airspeed' but I guess that rule doesn't apply to missiles that might go into a neighboring airspace. Turkey basically said they 'might' have strayed over the boundary, unavoidable....but seem to be pretty upset when a missile might have done the same.
Turkey did not shoot down Israel's planes when they went through Turkey to bomb Syrian reactor. Turkey does not shoot down Greek planes, neither does Greece. Apparently Syria did not shoot down Turkey planes before who have probably went into Syrian waters before. Syria wants to send a message and it will probably back fire.
V. Nugent, the F-4 has been named a flying brick by those who actually fly it. It is a flying brick.
Stunned, a missile has to be AIMED -- and missiles generally cannot be flown like an airplane, with someone working the flight controls to make it turn and such. You have obviously never flown an airplane, Stunned, or even had much (if anything) to do with airplanes.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/247552.html
Zionists always violates neighbhouring countries airspace without permission showing its mightness, now will be the same fate as Turks violation!!..Israhellis want to wage war on Syria prior to Iran, is already predicted all their moves 1400 years back by Islam and that is why ZIONISM is afraid of Islam since birth!!.................Get ready to eliminate oneself by bringing more injustices!!
haskes
Are you sure your first name isn't ayatollah? Sure sounds like it to me.
I don't think the Turks were trying to help out the Israelis on this one. Nice try though
Finally we have a good reason to destroy those Shiite dogs! Praise Allah! PBUH!
islam seems to be all about the killings .
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."
Nice quote, was going to watch that tonight. Very true though, this is all getting very interesting.....
Nice Red October reference and very germane to this story.
I would like to have seen Montana!
Time to buy a recreational vehicle.
Please, just terminate Assad. Yes, I said terminate.
American savage advocating death upon someone who has done nothing to you.
it will be openly murder why did you say honestly? go away or I kill you.
Let's see. Turkey is a NATO member. Syria has "attacked" Turkey by shooting down one of its planes as well as another border shooting. NATO is an alliance where if one member is attacked, it is considered and treated as an attack on all NATO members. The U.S. is a member of NATO. Now the U.S. has an excuse to actually perform military actions in or over Syria?
You'd have to make an additional assessment ... are the attacks continuing (or likely to continue)? Since the mutual support requirement is defensive in nature, if there's no more risk of attack, it wouldn't apply.
Luckily there doesn't seem to be any appetite for another proxy war by the puppeteers (the US and Russia). The Russians turned around their Syrian shipment of attack helicopters a few days ago and we are kinda war weary.
I hope I'm right. It would suck if I'm wrong cause this @!$%# is gonna get out of control otherwise.
The USA will not get involved to save any thing or anybody if no profit is in it for our wealthy.
You mean the one that lost its insurance? They really didn't have much choice. The decision was economic, not political.
Barry,
That's funny.
Putin: "We gotta get those choppers down to a Assad pronto"
Aid: "Sorry Mr president, our ship lost its insurance"
Are you @!$%#ing kidding me? Do you really believe that a country the size of Russia (2010 GDP of 1.5 Trillion) would sweat losing a ship? The insurance thing was just a nice face-saver for the Russians. Seems to have worked with some of us.
My take on it is that President Obama and Putin had a little behind the scenes talk at the G20 and they agreed that shipping those choppers right now was a bad PR move for Putin.
Let Turkey take out Syria. We don't need to get ivolved. Both are capable of handling the situation. One more country we won't have to invade.
We should have done it ourselves in 2003. Iraq-Syria-Lebanon and then parked on Israel's border with our tank barrels aimed toward them. Enough is enough. Take the whole region over, or get out and let it implode. Both solutions OK with me now.
Turkey cannot take out Syria on it's own. It would be too costly and average citizen won't approve of sending their sons to die to bring peace to a foreign land. Turkey cannot defend against Russian air raids if Russia wants to get involved. That would set Turkish economy decades back. Just not good business.
There's a big difference between Russia sending hardware to Syria and the Russian military bombing a NATO country, which would trigger conflict with NATO. They won't take that step. For all their griping, they're too economically integrated with Europe.
The Big question is can President Obama just go and eat a Hoagie and keep his feet out of his mouth
whos economy is better? The one with the best economy will win.
As Ice T said "There goes the neighborhood"
Although I won't be surprised when they start burning the American and Israeli Flag. Somehow in the eyes of Syria this will be our fault and the Death threats will start up. Would love to see the Syrians burning the Russian and Chinese flags on the cover of MSNBC or CNN. Maybe that would turn things around and stop the ruthless brutality. But then again these are religious freaks who seems to thrive on killing each other.
Back to enjoying my Saturday...Peace Out!!!
Syria is, and has always been, a regional problem and, now that they have effectively attacked a neighboring sovereign nation, Turkey has every right to take the appropriate actions to bring this reprehensible dictator, Bashar al-Assad, to his knees. This has to be a strong message to all the war-mongers in the US, led by 'General' John McCain, as the truth about these conflicts comes into focus and adds credence to the fact that such activities by aggressive nations must be solved by other nations in the region. The US can no longer be the policeman of the world.
Whoops, you seem to forget that the USA and Turkey are BOTH members of NATO. Some little clause in the agreement about 'if one member is attacked the others will help out' or something like that. So, yes, it was a very strong message: "we are ready to begin" just got broadcasted by Turkey to all the 'war-mongers' you reference.
And if we were not the police of the world you would be speaking German and or Russian. Ponder that thought for a while before you point the finger. America has lost hundreds of thousands of service men fighting for the freedom of other countries. Yet we ask nothing in return and most of the time we don't even get a Thank you!!
Nonsense
@breadex: Read some history son and maybe you will learn a thing or two.
Not true at all. Acting as world police only undermines US security.
Which news authentic? MSNBC or PRESSTV??.....YOU JUDGE!!
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/23/247552/jet-violating-syrian-airspace-possible/
I saw no basic difference in the articles. What's your point?
My opinion turkey has violated Syria's airspace by doing its routine ? while the region is on high alert of war, Syria shouldn't be blamed for shooting the jet down.
Turkey is always wanting to be the attack dog for the west. Few years ago it begged as the EU memeber but was slapped on the face by the german/french/austria etc the lighter people they just wanted to give the turkey partial memebership.
Well it got that membership eventually it then become very reactive to the orders from the West so it is time to show its loyality to provoke Syria, to please its masters like a lapdog.
It will get reward anyway (you give a treat to your dog when it does well) perhaps the west would claim it didn't massacre the Armenian...
An expanded Turkish presence throughout Syria might be the solution to Syria's future.
Now the Syrians have done it. Being faulted for killing their own people to stay in power is one thing. It is another thing entirely when they shoot down a Turkish war plane. We will hear this is Turkey's fault for flying in Syrian air space and the rocket launch was withing their rights. Some trigger happy soldier working for the Assad government just ticked off one of the most aggressive armies in the world. I can only imagine the deep desire of the Turk military to cross the border and take revenge and how bloody that incursion will be when it happens. Now the Russians have motivation to do something to stop Assad. Otherwise then the fighting starts the body count will be unreal.
"You play with the bull - You get the horn."
The United Snakes (US/Israel/NATO) better give this some real deep thought as the Russians are massing their nuclear armed missile battalions and bringing in their elite commando forces closer to the Iranian/Syrian borders to see what these two-bit bankrupt wannabe colonists of the new millennium have up their sleeves. If all this fails, the Taliban that have had great success kicking the US/NATO pale white asses in Afghanistan stand 'ready to serve.' FYI: The killings of innocents in Syria has been committed by the US/Israel recruited 'rebel's' that are the same cut-throats that murdered, maimed, garroted, raped and tortured innocent civilians in Libya before being air lifted to the Jordanese/Lebanese borders by the US/Israel war criminals and sic'd on Assads military in another flagrant violation of the Nuremburg Protocols, the UN Charter and International Law.
Russians motivate to stop Assad?!!
What you smoking in that pipe, Pilgrim?
Russia is Syria's ally and they agree that the United Snakes (US/Israel/NATO) are up to no good!
Helping the United Snakes make the Muddled East safer for Jewish terrorism and US imperialism seves no good purpose (except for the war criminals themselves).