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Subscribe to RSSReports are surfacing that Syria may have shot down a Turkish fighter jet over Syrian waters in the Mediterranean Sea. NBC's Richard Engel reports.
Turkey on Sunday called for an extraordinary meeting of NATO after one of its planes was shot down by Syria in international airspace – an incident condemned by Britain as “outrageous.”
Turkey insisted the plane had mistakenly strayed into Syrian territory andwas not on a spying mission. It filed an official protest note to Damascus.
State-run TRT television reported that Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu had called the meeting for Tuesday over article 4 of the NATO charter concerning Friday's incident.
The article says member countries "will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened."
The wreckage of the plane was discovered in the Mediterranean on Sunday at a depth of 3,281 feet, TRT reported. The pilots still have not been accounted for.
NATO spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said the North Atlantic Council, the principal political decision-making body within the military alliance, would meet in Brussels on Tuesday to discuss the incident.
"Turkey has requested consultations under Article 4 of Nato’s founding Washington Treaty,” she told Reuters.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the jet downing as "brazen and unacceptable" and vowed close U.S. cooperation with Turkey to promote a political transition in Syria.
Britain's Foreign Secretary William Hague said Sunday that he was "gravely concerned by the Syrian regime's action in shooting down" the plane, and said Davutoglu had told him no warning was given.
Turkey: Syria's downing of military jet cannot be ignored
"This outrageous act underlines how far beyond accepted behavior the Syrian regime has put itself and I condemn it wholeheartedly," Hague said in a statement. "The Assad regime should not make the mistake of believing that it can act with impunity. It will be held to account for its behavior. The UK stands ready to pursue robust action at the United Nations Security Council."
Hague met last week with U.N and Arab League special envoy Kofi Annan for talks on plans for an international summit, while British officials discussed the issue in Geneva on Saturday with members of Annan's team.
"This deplorable incident underlines the urgent need to find a solution to the current crisis in Syria in order to bring an end to the violence and to achieve a genuine political transition," Hague said.
Davutoglu said earlier Sunday that the jet was downed in "international airspace" after it mistakenly strayed into Syria, but the plane was not on a spying mission. He said the plane had entered Syria on Friday, but quickly left when warned by Turkey.
The plane had no "covert mission related to Syria," Davutoglu said, adding that it was purely on a training flight to test Turkey's radar capabilities.
Davutoglu said the plane was shot down one mile inside the airspace several minutes after it left Syria.
Syria on Saturday insisted the shooting was "not an attack," and that the plane had violated its airspace.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
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They insist the plane accidently "strayed" into Syrian Air Space... Not spying.. Ya, right! Of course if Iran accidently "strayed" into Israel Air Space that would be the green light for Israel to attack Iran. Funny hypocritical world the Israeli propaganda machine lives in. But its ok because of the holocaust 70 years ago.
Ophpfoot; Hey Jew Basher, the article is about Turkey and Syria. I guess you will use any opportunity bad mouth Der Juden. What does Israel have to do with a d Turkish F4 downed by Syria?
TWITT!!! nice comparison... iran and Israel are seaperated by several countries and at the closest their borders are over 550 miles apart! That could never be thought of as accidental, well in your delusional mind mabey... but for any sane person no. Take a look at the map of the borderland between these two countries in the area that this occured, it is not a straight line, it juts up and down following the terrain. When traveling at over 600MPH at low levels while skirting the border a mistake could easily be made.
Oh and bye the way, WHERE THE HELL IS ISRAEL EVEN MENTIONED IN THIS ARTICLE FOR YOU TO SO QUICKLY BRING THEM UP... DUMBASS PATHATIC TROLL!
True but what about Israel? If a Syrian plane violated Israel air space? would it have been shot down? Please --- of course it would. Israel is ALWAYS part of the story in this region ----- it is the only made up country in their with make up of Euro's that were booted out of Europe (their final solution to their Jewish problem post ww2) and recent Russian immigrants --- the rest of the people are indigenous to the region so Israel will always be an issue as it will never find peace in the region and it is always a focal point of anger.
George: As a point of fact, All the col@!$%#ries in that area are "made up." The cu;ltures are old, and their general locationka may be largely unchanged. BUT, the borders - all of them - are artificial, drawn up by the British and the French AFTER WWI. Please check your history. Plus, I believe that the Jews are indigenous to the area, at least since Abraham, so the "indigenous" arabs really have nothing to complain about except that the Jews pray to the same God, but in a different manner.
So sounds like the Turkish F-4 may have accidentally (or intentionally) strayed into Syrian airspace and was shot down. I am sure that the Turkish government is upset at this, but it appears as if the Syrians did not necessarily do anything wrong, although you would have expected some type of warning and/or verbal challenge from Syrian air defense before they started shooting at the plane. To simply shoot down a plane without any warning or challenge would be very unusual unless the two nations were at war with each other. This incident is certainly no cause for NATO to get involved or take any military action against Syria. It sounds like the Turkish pilot screwed up and unfortunately paid for it with his life and that of his fellow crew member. Turkey seems to have been looking for a way to drag NATO into the trouble in Syria to take down Assad and may even have done this intentionally to achieve those goals.
Ah, George; I hate to tell you this but Jews have lived in that region of the world for thousands of years.
History can so convenient to the ignorant. You don't pick up a history text and begin reading from the middle of the book. History begins on page one.
Just for your own edification, look into how Palestine was founded, it began with a Jewish exile forced upon them by the Romans.
My gibberish word above should read "countries." Fumble fingers. Sorry.
I'm not pro-Syria, but in this case Turkey is being utterly ridiculous.
Aircraft flying over enemy airspace during times of tension get shot down. If you don't like it, then don't fly in areas where "speed" may cause you to stray into enemy airspace -- which itself is a ridiculous explanation.
Turkey literally went over the line provoking Syria and paid the consequences. Quit crying, man up and take your whipping, Turkey. If anybody should be rebuked, it's Turkey for taking such provocative actions during a time when tensions are so incendiary.
Was the Article 4 applicable to Turkey?
In that case, why did not Turkey send its forces along with NATO forces during Iraqi wars?
This incident did not involved NATO.
It is not our business!
Let brave barbaric and bigoted Sunni Saudi and other Arab League nations take actions instead of praying five times a day and roaming around harems of girls and women.
They can do what ever they want just as long as we're not involved. The US is not the only country in NATO and we have enough problems of our own.
The main issue here is did Syria have to shoot down the plane. I am sure that they ( Syria) had the Turkish plane on their radar and could have scrambled their own fighters to force the Turkish fighter out of their airspace or forced it to land, unless the Turkish fighter was attacking Syria there was no reason to shoot it down. If a Russian or Chinesse fighter were to cross into our airspace we would have not shot it down and if one of our fighters had crossed into the air sapce or either of those countries I doubt that they would have shot it down. Syria does not want to try Turkey, a country that is battle reeady and strong, they would prefer just to kill it's own people
Turkey did not shoot down Israeli planes when they flew over Turkey to bomb suspected Syrian reactor.
Ahh, yes Lady, but wars have always covered the rejuvenation of the economies by recession borrowing.
We (the west) have been using wars to avoid the hard fall of industrial over-capacity since the 80s. We have delayed the crash so long we have needed continual war for the last 12 years. If we can't find another war, our president may not survive the election (not that he is alone in this strategy - see King Bush II).
More lives will be lost, more debt will be logged, and the rich will take control of more of our assets: nothing new. But we will save a few factory jobs and kill-off a few job seekers - great for the economy.
The plane went into Syrian airspace where it could expect to be shot at, was downed in Syrian waters, and Syria apologized yet the Turks want to ignite the west end of Asia. GTFO. We'd be in it with Iran and Russia by Wednesday.
Hello folks, when will we discard our Imperialistic mindset? This is just another ploy by the U.S. and the U.N. to perpetrate the war mongering and demonizing as the U.S. is trying to drum up more support for another war. We’ve caused enough trouble around the world. If you can't see that we are the instigators in most of the world's wars and displacement of millions of people who are fleeing our aggression, than you are not paying attention. If you don’t think we have been in Syria covertly arming the rebels you are in denial and forgetting about Libya. We need to stay out of other country’s civil disputes. I hope we aren’t going to go against the United Nations vote earlier this year and unilaterally go into Syria under the pretext that we need to stop the violence like we did in Libya. General Wesley Clark has stated that a Syria invasion has been pre-planned for quite awhile.
General Wesley Clark: "America will take out 7 countries in 5 years"
According to Former NATO supreme allied commander, former presidential candidate and 4 star US General Wesley Clark that they had received a memo that America is going to take out 7 countries in the Middle East starting with Iraq, Libya, Syria Lebanon Sudan, Somalia, and finally Iran. It is amazing how these things that were planned years ago and even though it is taking longer than originally planned, are being achieved in front of our eyes.
Why is it other countries feel like they have to defend their territory? Could it be that they know we have no problem invading their sovereignty just as we have done to countless other countries. Since World War II, 90% of the casualties of war are unarmed civilians. 1/3 of them children. Our victims have done nothing to us. From Palestine to Afghanistan to Iraq to Somalia to wherever our next target may be, their murders are not collateral damage, they are the nature of modern warfare. They don't hate us because of our freedoms. They hate us because every day we are funding and committing crimes against humanity. The so-called "war on terror" is a cover for our military aggression to gain control of the resources of western Asia.
This is sending the poor of this country to kill the poor of those Muslim countries. This is trading blood for oil. This is genocide, and to most of the world, we are the terrorists. In these times, remaining silent on our responsibility to the world and its future is criminal. And in light of our complicity in the supreme crimes against humanity in Iraq and Afghanistan, and ongoing violations of the U.N. Charter in International Law, how dare any American criticize the actions of legitimate resistance to illegal occupation.
We are going into Syria for a couple of reasons (yes we are in Syria with our Drones at a minimum), one, we are trying to dislodge Russia from there because they have a foothold in the Middle East via two military bases in Latakia and Tartus in Syria. Two, Syria is a strong ally of Iran. If we invade Syria we take out a strong ally and maybe incite Iran to assist giving the U.S. the reason they are looking for to attack Iran. The ultimate goal is to surround, weaken and to invade Iran. The petro dollar is at stake as other countries are switching to other forms of currency in buying Iran’s oil.
Since the Russian war in 1828, Iran has never attacked another country. We on the other hand have attacked to name a few:
Libya, Iran, Nicaragua, Haiti, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Angola, Mozambique, Honduras, Chile, Congo, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia, Angola, Columbia, Peru, Panama, Yemen, Pakistan, Grenada, Mexico, etc..
Wake up people we are being herded down the Military Industrial Complex gauntlet again to another false war to enrich the greedy Corporations and distract the American people. Did we not learn anything from the Iraq war where we have killed well over 1 million Iraqi people, lost thousands of American lives and God knows how many hundreds of billions of dollars?
Who do you support, humanity or the greedy elite?
Many of our soldiers don't fight for America, they fight for their lives and their buddies beside them, because we put them in a war zone. They're not defending our freedoms, they're laying the foundation for permanent military bases to defend the freedoms of Exxon Mobil and British Petroleum.
Face it we're Imperialists pure and simple. The elite look down on all of us as expendable chattel.
"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy" Henry Kissinger
I’m not asking you to hate war, but to love peace? War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing!
Jonathan-1982062, Turkey did not join or help with the Iraq invasion because despite Turkish requests, it was not a NATO or UN operation. It was "coalition of the willing". Turkey has troops in Afghanistan because it is a NATO operation. Turkish law only allows helping United States when the war is made through NATO or UN international bodies. Turkish position is that she is a NATO ally and not a US ally. There is no alliance agreement made between Turkey and US other than the NATO agreement.
roger white-3731376 Israel has actually violated sovereign countries air space and even worse, bombed installations in those same countries without any consequences.
1981 Iraqi nuclear reactor (operation Opera) and 2007 Syrian nuclear site (operation Orchid).
I have an idea. They should round up all the Al Qaeda and Taliban types and pack them into jetliners. Setup automated piloting software to take off and fly "accidentally" over Syrian airspace. Problem solved.
BigGuyo8: You have my consent!
and we should do the same thing to bush and his laying ex VP
Gary..you are one pathetic person!!
Big, The big picture is that most of the ME is socially regressed and still practice neanderthalic TRIBAL ideology and theology. Such a neanderthalic social ideology demands war even with each other within their own countries and even within their own religion. Answer to resolve this: I don't know
some people live in retro for their entire lives...Obama will.
One jetliner is not enough.
More jetliners, which carry their patrons like Sunni Saudi ruler with his 5000 princes and princesses, UAE, Kuwaiti and other Sunni Arab League rulers, are required.
Otherwise, there will be no ends to problems from them.
This week in 1973: Israel Air Force shoots down 13 Syrian jets.
The Syrians are very shy about attempting it again.
Hello folks, Syria is not Libya. Waging an all-out war against Syria is a further step towards WW III. People who support a UN or NATO intervention in Syria are by extension in favor of World War III. The U.S. and Russia have been selling arms all around the world for decades.
We are broke, our allies are broke but yet we can somehow come up with the taxpayer funding to invade another country? Now why is that? Middle class and the poor get the bill for the war and the rich get richer for funding and supplying all the materials used in war. Not only do they (Halliburton, Bechtel, GE, Northrop Grumman, etc.) benefit from the armaments but from the rebuilding of the cities and buildings they bomb. It’s a “win win” situation for the purveyors of war and everybody else loses and yet you have the sheeple buying into the propaganda they use to incite support for war.
In the past year, Syria has seen a massive infusion of arms and terrorists from outside its borders. At the same time, the U.S. has attempted to manipulate world public opinion and exploit the chaos it unleashed in Syria.
The U.S., NATO, Saudi Arabia, and Israel continue to stir up trouble in Syria to get a larger war going in the region. The U.S. and their allies have openly admitted to funding the rebels. They are not only supplying armaments they are supplying U.S. paid mercenaries.
Reports of another “false flag” are surfacing that opposition rebels are planning to use chemical weapons and then blame the atrocity on Assad’s regime. Rebels attempted to stage a similar ‘false flag’ recently when British Channel 4 reporter Alex Thomson was purposefully led by rebels into a trap whereby it was hoped he would be killed by government troops and his death used as a propaganda stunt.
Washington’s goal is to build up an international consensus to carry out a larger military operation against the Assad government under the cover of a “humanitarian intervention.” So far, that consensus has been lacking because the case for a military solution is based on total lies and U.S.-Israeli war propaganda, much of which has been repudiated by evidence gathered by independent journalists and eye witnesses on the ground in Syria.
According to Veterans Today:
“There is no question this is a Washington-orchestrated war. It is a low-level war to the extent that NATO has not gotten directly involved. But it is exactly what happened in Libya last year. An insurgency began; Washington orchestrated it; insurgents were recruited; they were funded; they were armed; they were US special forces, British special forces, CIA, MI6, Qatari special forces. They are in Syria now; they are directing these massacres, these killings. They are funding, they are training; they are picking targets; they are leading these dead squad games to places like Houla [and] Takiba. They are picking up who to slaughter. They go after pro-Assad loyalists.
You always have to ask, when terrible incidents occur, whether it is car bombings, whether it is massacres of civilians, cui bono, who benefits? Assad gets nothing from this. Only the opposition gains. Assad is the victim. The victim is being blamed for the perpetrator’s crimes. But again make no mistake. The nexus of this struggle emanates from Washington, doesn’t matter whether it is Obama, [former US President] George Bush or anybody else. Syria, and other regional countries, have been targeted for regime change for years, at least a decade. It was only the question when each one would come up. Syria’s turn came up and violence has been raging since early last year.”
Folks this has been pre-planned for a while, Syria has been on the list for a long time and now their time has come up. Do you really want another unnecessary war? Do you want your children fighting for another corporate war? I keep adding General Clark’s admonition of America’s plan to take over the Middle East because it is playing itself out right in front of the world! This isn’t a necessary war!
General Wesley Clark: "America will take out 7 countries in 5 years"
According to Former NATO supreme allied commander, former presidential candidate and 4 star US General Wesley Clark that they had received a memo that America is going to take out 7 countries in the Middle East starting with Iraq, Libya, Syria Lebanon Sudan, Somalia, and finally Iran. It is amazing that even if it is taking longer than originally planned, how these things that were planned years ago are being achieved in front of our eyes.
Folks, haven’t we spread enough blood shed and death around the world? This isn’t a necessary war!
Don't be a chicken, you are worried about the pennies you pay in tax, what about young kids that are murdered during a broad day light, how about innocent women and men killed execution style, how about their suffering, would you compare it with your pennies. Stop being selfish and think globally. The world is connected today and you can not ignore that. They should clear Syria, clear Zimbabwe, and all countries with bully dictators. We want our world to be free and sometimes salvation comes through action.
Can someone tell me, based on this quote from the article, where the plane was when it was shot down? Inside the air space? Or minutes out of Syria?
Davutoglu said the plane was shot down one mile inside the airspace several minutes after it left Syria.
Jesus Christ Gary get over it this has nothing to do with former President Bush,someday Obammy is going to have to take responsibility for his own actions.
TrustVerify - Although I don't always agree with your view on things, you are right on the money on this issue. Using Wesly Clark in your opinion however is off base a bit, and we have been unable to take out ANY country since the Vietnam War simply because the American people and poltiicians do not have the resolve to finish what they start. Good reason for NEVER starting anything that involves military action or indirect military aid or monetary support. As for Syria, the fact of the matter is that Russia will NOT let us meddle into their primary weapons system purchaser no matter how much Hillary and the POTUS blusters and threatens, and they and the Chinese are about as scared of us and NATO as we are of Hawaiian Nationalists. Enough said.
Agreed. Syria is Russia's cat to skin (or not) any way they see fit. We need to stay out of it. I do not see why the American people believe the ole "humanitarian crisis" excuse when thousands die of hunger and preventable disease in Africa every year. What is going on in Syria right now is sad, and the world is a cruel place.
wonder if turky has the nuts. to use nato Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty
An armed attack against any one of them in Europe or North America would be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agreed that, if an armed attack occurred, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence, would assist the member being attacked, taking such action as it deemed necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. The treaty does not require members to respond with military action against an aggressor. Although obliged to respond, they maintain the freedom to choose the method by which they do so. This differs from Article IV of the Treaty of Brussels, which clearly states that the response will be military in nature. It is nonetheless assumed that NATO members will aid the attacked member militarily. The treaty was later clarified to include both the member's territory and their "vessels, forces or aircraft" above the Tropic of Cancer, including some Overseas departments of France.
The key is the last line here were they included aircraft!!!!!
Where was Turkey during Iraqi war with Article 4 of NATO?
It should have send soldiers along with NATO forces.
Turkey's, Sunni Saudis and their Arab League members dirty jobs are our jobs.
Can't they handle a tin pot dictator like Assad?
Let me see if I understand this issue correctly.
Turkey admits that it had one of its war planes violate Syrian air space. The war plane was un-armed. After it violated the air space, it was shot down by the Syrian air defense in international waters. Turkey is crying foul to NATO now.
1. Since this is not Star Trek and we are not able to tell if the photon torpedoes are loaded, how is Syrian supposed to know if a war plane is armed with bombs or not from a radar display?
2. Since missiles are not flying at light speed, how can Syria prevent a fired missile at a violating war plane from striking that plane if it ended up returning to international waters?
3. Since the world has placed major pressure for the last year on Syria and just last year NATO attacked Libya during the NATO-Libya War, how was Syria to know that such similar actions were not being started on its country Saturday?
I see this an a staged event to give the world (and most likely NATO) some form of justification to execute the Libya-option on Syria. I would not be surprised to hear that 150+ Tomahawks from the US 6th Fleet being fired in the next couple months. Question is will it be before November 6 or after November 6?
No i went into syrian air space very briefly and left THEN was shot down. It was shot down after it left Syrian air space. Syria did not want it to get away even if it ment potential war.
These SAM's travel so much faster than you know. The plane had been out of Syrian air space for several minutes before it was shot down.
It helps to read the entire article..
a
We are starting to get the shakes and withdrawal symptoms within The USA as we haven't attacked another new country for some time now. We including NATO are just praying for an excuse to get involved in Syria. This sounds just like our trumped up Gulf of Tonkin incident that we used as an excuse to get involved in Viet Nam. We have attacked so many nations within my lifetime that we are starting to make the ancient Romans look like a peace loving bunch.
@Dave, you gave me a chuckle. All though the US hasn't said anything publily yet, England gave a strong response. You do know between the US and England if something causes one of them sniffle the other sneezes. So I'm guessing England spoke for us to.
@Ophotfoot, every time you say anything it is always Anti-Israeli no matter what the topic. I bet you are not born in the US, but your on my turf. Are you Palistianian, Nazi, Zellist, Syrian, Canadin, or What?
I was born in Ohio. Sorry. What does Israel have to do with it?
Too many wars are bad for nation, however strong it is.
We need a break from wars.
We had enough mess due to Iraqi wars and in Afghanistan, we are up to the neck!
NATO's Secrf.Gen.Rasmussen has stated NATO will not be involved in Syria- Turkish jetfighter F-4 was in Syrian airspace and was shot down in Syrian territorial waters. Turkey's dep.PM on TV said that it was not a fighter plane-it was a reconnessaince plane (spy plane) and perhaps Syrian forces thought it was an Israeli jet in their airspace. For NATO to start an air war over the illegitimacy of Turkish claim it is considering the potential drawing in of Russian military and Iranian military forces. In the meantime Erdogan's Turkey has been busy with their airstrikes in Northern IRAQ - 9 (nine) airstrikes in Qandil region against Kurds in Kurdistan (Iraq) for the PKK militants between June 22 and June 24. Turkey/Erdogan are waging elimination in Iraq/Kurdistan w/o declaration of war on Iraq- intruding their airspace and territorial rights.
Add-on. The Turkish F-4 fighterjet was located in SYRIAN territorial waters in 1,300 m depth. In the meantime Turkish FM Davutoglu and Russian FM Latrov discussed the incident of shooting down (Davutoglu initiated the call) and Turkey's citing NATO's Article 4 is to inform NATO of the incident that Turkish warplane was shot down by Syrian forces. According to another source- Syrian air defense shot the fighterjet ONE kilometer off SYRIAN territorial waters- coast-then the plane flew circa another 10 km on its way down and crashed.
What a buncha whinners. If the Turks are so upset about losing one of their planes, they should go do something about it. NATO outta just sit back and watch. No more bailing out Turkey. Let them clean up their own messes.
You are right.
Turkey is another backstabber.
Look at how the bomb the Kurds and intervene in Cyprus.
Compare the Syria case with Bahrain.
When they meet stronger opposition, then all the Sunni Saudis gangs do their Ramadan style soap operas with seventh century desert robes and outsource dirty jobs like in Iraq, Iran (on going job for oil price manipulations) and other places.
What do we get in return?
High oil price manipulations and their Salaffi, Wahhabi mosques while we are saving these bigoted barbarians.
"What do we get in return?"
Free access to Newsvine and the priviledge to vote for or against Obama.
Turkey is doing your bidding folks. Trying to paint Syria as a trigger happy war monger that needs to be punished! Whatever Turkey does, it is because United States wants or allows it.
no more bailing out Turkey ? When the hell Nato ever bailed out Turkey ? When we send thousands of troops over thousands of miles in korea to fight agaisnt china ? Or was it when Turks took out serbian bankers in Operation Deliberate Force.Or was it when we were enforcing no fly zone in Operation Northern Watch alongside the Usaf..Turkey has a very capable army and powerful enough to destroy Syria before Asad can say help me Putin i mean daddy..This news mean Turkey is just letting Nato know that she's gonna beat the crap out of Syria but first wants to explain the facts that she has every right to do so..
@atarax i comply with every sentence... If Turkey wanted Nato help we would invoke article 5 not 4.
Are we talking about the same Turkey who said they would support us during Iraqi freedom then backed out at the last minute?
yep hows that turned out for you btw ? still looking for weapons of mass destruction ?
if it was a US aircraft we would be angry as well..
Time for Obama to put his head under his pillow and hide...
Hope he does.
and hide from the likes of you and your neo cons..please
oh yes, because it was George W that killed Bin Laden or more Terrorist than anyone else....NOT ----- Republicans are the biggest idiots in the world - they personify the big ugly american....literally.....but they are on a losing trajectory in the US --- hispanic growth, low aglo birth rate, etc etc --==== democratic control till the eye can see..
Folks don't you think it's about time to quit acting like we know what is best for everyone else when we are unable to solve our own problems.
George promoting the marxist/alinsky agenda my Obama I see. The article was about Turkey and Syria I thought but leave it to someone to promote their poltical agenda and hate for Israel
Bush ruined America, NOT OBAMA......if Obama loses, his family will be happy, they have taken enough s h i t for
5 lifetimes.....nobody is gonna help the man do anything for this country. The republicans, if they get in, employment is going to go up.....and they are gonna take social security, medicare away from us.....they
are gonna turn this country into slave labor......there are gonna be more foreclosures.....the republicans do not care about anything except the rich.....just watch if Romney wins.....we will be going down. There is gonna be no way to pay for new housing...nobody can afford the mortgages and the taxes.......prices are NOT coming down and wages are NOT going up and republicans will do nothing to change this. Just watch, if Obama loses....
I believe the plane was on a provocative mission. However we can not ascertain from reported facts what really occurred or where. Then again you would have to believe in a controlled worldwide media. If you think about it Turkey will get lots of refuge's I mean immigrants to take care of. It is in their best interest to involve themselves in Syria.
last I read the plane finally turned when it was .62 miles over Syrian declared air space. Folks do you realize that a jet flying, at normal air speed, that half mile space is just a millisecond yolk adjustment. So Syria actually shot while it was in international air space? Turks never really liked Iranian backed governments anyway. They really dislike the Iranian dominated caliphate ruled idea. Here we go again.
The border is not a straight line. The coast is rugged. It is very easy to get in and get out half a mile within a second.
Turkey; I'm pretty shure it was just an isolated mistake. The Syrian military is beginning to fall apart and the personell are most likely confused. Logically, there is no reason for anyone in Syria to act aggressively towards Turkey
and the source of your info of the state of the Syrian military is.... judging by the way they dealt with the intruding Turkish jet they are doing just fine.
they shot down an unarmed RF-4E (probably older than its pilot),after 15 minutes it violated its airspace flying at 200 feets on international aerospace, with no warnings... Way to go syria!!!
The F4 was a recon photo plane. It intruded at high speed deliberately flying very low- witness accounts- to avoid radar. It got hit with AA fire- not missiles. Get your facts straight please. If the NATO aggressors were trying to get a fix on S300 missile sites, they evidently didn't succeed.
Source please DOU44
No were in any of msn reporting do they tell about the Syria pilot that defected to Jordan with a mig-21 friday. I want all the news, msn, just not what you feel we need to know. The Turkish jet really didn't need to be spying on anybody. The US and NATO have that covered with satillites, drones and on the ground cia agents. And a couple miles inside a counties border at 500 miles an hour isn't going to give you a whole lot of information. Syria was just trigger happy.
No - imagine a similar plane heading towards US shores or Turkish or Israeli? They would have ALL SHOT IT DOWN--- people need to stop being hypocrites- if a Syrian plane violated Turkish or Israeli airspace it would be in the water but when Syria does it it's an emergency---please.
Not neccessarily so, While I was stationed in Germany there was a Russian pilot that defected and landed in West Germany, before the fall of Russia. While I was stationed on the East Coast, USA, there was a Cuban Pilot thet defected and landed in Florida with his MIG. We pretty much have a ask first and shoot second policy in these matters.
My take is that now it's getting harder, all the time, to discern fact from fiction in any and all political matters. There really is no need to spy, but was it an accident, an act of provacation, does Syria want to stir the pot, does Turkey or someone(s) else? Turkey and Syria's medias will lean differently on this as will NATO should it become involved.... and sadly enough, that's all it takes nowadays to start something most of us really don't want at all.
Everyone should take a breath, step back, and see if these two can sort it out via evidence investigation. Hopefully none just react. Curiously, though, what could NATO really do short of a sound tongue lashing? Again, start something militarily over this? I should hope not.....
6dogs, Your memory is in a bit of a muddle, most of the defections to Germany were in small East German prop aircraft or Russians who ejected, ditto with the flight to Florida (trainers, helicopter, and a MIG-17), notable exceptions are the MIG-25 to Japan, MIG-29 to Turkey, and the MIG-23 to Guantanamo. There were other defections to other countries, but those did not involve American-controlled air defense identification zones, as with the USA and westernmost NATO. A good example is a long list of Chinese military pilots defecting to Taiwan.
This week in 1973: Israel Air Force shoots down 13 Syrian jets.
The Syrians are very shy about attempting it again.
Turkey did not shoot down Israeli planes when they flew over Turkey (and even dropped their empty fuel tanks there) when they bombed suspected Syrian reactor.
The Syrians won't make the same mistakes they made in 1973. Read the historical after action accounts. Against S300 missile defenses, NATO won't use their precious expensive techno jets. NATO is used to fighting decrepit WW2 equipped peasant armies and militias. The US will have to use multiple hundreds of cowardly cruise missiles.
Sweaver, when have we shot down an aircraft that penetrated our borders? USSR used to fly into Alaskan airspace almost weekly and we just scrambled and escorted them back out.
DOU get some sources or don't say anything. Seriously, some facts are needed in this discussion you are intent on having.
this completely stinks of a con--- first of all it was either attempting to TEST Syrian defenses or it was done on purpose so that Turkey would then have an excuse to go to Nato. But let's get one thing clear-- and an attack on Syria can lead to Istanbul getting hit by chemical weapons and the PKK allying attacking like never before. And it would be Turkey's own doing because it is the aggressor -and like most situations everyone in the region would turn on Turkey, because at the end of the day no arab likes to see other arabs dying from the Turks --- kindles too many memories --- after that the gates of REAL Terrorist hell open for Turkey -- it does not have the luxury of an ocean separating it from Chemical weapons, dirty nuke terrorist attacks.
The Turkish people need to keep their government in check for it is exactly the Turkish people that will pay a high price.
Good point ! but remember France illegally gave Antioch to Turkey which will always be Syrian land ! Turkey still kills and harms Christians in Tur Abdin which the west and nato looks the other way ! nato is another corrupt bunch of baby killers !
The PKK (or Kongra Gel) are allies of neither Turkey nor Syria, so don't count on them to morph into combat sleeper cells. That's just wishful thinking, they are self-serving in their orientation and separatist mission.
PKK cannot attack like never before. Turkey allows them to exist because it gives them an excuse to train the army, test the guns and get good weapons contracts to buy or to sell because they can claim they get "battle tested". PKK is a pawn of the Turkish war machine.
Random guess:
Recon mission to get close-ups of Syria killing refugees (rebel forces).
Plane shooting just a bonus for NATO?
Tony, almost entire ME was part of Ottoman empire before WWI. It is absurd to say France gave antioch to Turkey. The whole map has been drawn according to the wishes of the colonial powers to divide the bounty that they captured from Turks. In that carnage, Antioch had too many Turks that wanted to be part of Turkey. Eventually people of Antioch voted in that direction and France did not object to their wishes given that Turkish army was waiting across the border. Keep in mind, Syria was "given" to the French by the British who won it from the Turks. Only the soldiers of British empire and the Ottoman Turks died for Syria and if anyone deserved it, it would be one of them. Arabs of Lawrence would only be a footnote in that struggle. Currently Syria exists only because it was politically wise for the British to divide Arabs so that they could be ruled as small weak entities. Even today the Arabs suffer because of the fact that they are not united. Each country is a tribal region ruled by a tyrant even though the larger population of entire Arab lands could be together living in harmony enjoying great power. But then we would not be able to bribe Saudi's so such ideas are not tolerated and anyone who might attempt unification (like Saddam) needs to be austed. Anyway, to mkae the story short, Syria has no claim on Antioch. But they could think about uniting with Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others. That would be wiser for them.
Turks are not Arabs.
Sounds "Gulf of Tonkinish" to me.
With the Earth's population growing at a pace of a 1/4 million each and every day it's time to let some of the nations shoot it out and thin out the heard.
The F-4 I'm sure is still a very capable fighter but I hope Turkey has an F with double digits.
Yes, they have F-16s.
google turkish air force then you will see what they got
Turkey builds F-16s and they will soon be building the engine for our F-35.
Why do you think a fighter jet is just doing recon duty?
Op... RF-4 is made for recon missions. It is a variant of F-4.
Another Bay Of Tonkin. Remember what started the Vietnam war.
Pattrick, if history is correct, President Esienhower started the Vietnam War, he put the first American advisers over there. JFK was going to pull all troops out, he got killed because of that idea, then LBJ, took over and esclated it. Nixon didn't help either, but was President when we cut and ran from there.
So yes, remember who, and like you said, what started the war.
I thought JFK was killed because he didn't want to take the USA off the gold standard. Or, that Fidel the Lawyer killed him for the Bay of Pigs fiasco or the Mob killed him because of his affairs with starlets that were also having affairs with the mob bosses.
JFK got killed for many reasons. Difference of opinion on control of money supply, vietnam, Israeli nukes were all contributing factors that made him a target. Listen to his "secret society" speech to guess who his enemies were.
SallyAnn-JFK had given the ok to Lodge to talk about a coup. Diem and others were killed weeks before President Kennedy. After Kennedy's death all Americans could think about were renaming schools and a space center and if there was a second shooter. Not much about who was involved in Viet Nam's administration changes. After this Johnson's hands were tied. The US could not be seen as backing such a leadership change and then leaving. Kennedy would have stayed also even during his next elected term. Nothing much would have changed. It is nice to believe it would have but sometimes the US just does not do the right thing. It was also Ford and the 74 congress which relieved the US of this problem.
JFK was killed because he opposed Israel's aquiring of nuclear weapons. ben Gurion was furious with Kennedy for trying to mess with Israel's security. For that treason, Ben Gurion gave the order to kill JFK.
Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby, a Jew affiliated with Meyer Lansky's organized crime syndicate, to shut him up. What was not known at the time was Lyndon Johnson was a closet Jew and an ardent Zionist. He was Jewish on his maternal grandparents side. Read below:
http://lennybendavid.com/2008/05/lyndon-johnsons-historical-connection.html
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/36262/friend-ally-savior-revealing-lbj-s-jewish-ties/
Research into
Johnson's personal history indicates that he inherited his concern for the
Jewish people from his family. His aunt Jessie Johnson Hatcher, a major
influence on LBJ, was a member of the Zionist Organization of America. As a
young boy, Lyndon watched his politically active grandfather "Big Sam"
and father "Little Sam" seek clemency for Leo Frank, the Jewish
victim of a blood libel in Atlanta. Frank was lynched by a mob in 1915, and the
Ku Klux Klan in Texas threatened to kill the Johnsons. Johnson's speechwriter
later stated, "Johnson often cited Leo Frank's lynching as the source of
his opposition to both anti-Semitism and isolationism."
Lyndon Johnson’s maternal ancestors, the Huffmans, apparently migrated to
Frederick, Maryland from Germany sometime in the mid-eighteenth century. Later
they moved to Bourbon, Kentucky and eventually settled in Texas in the
mid-to-late nineteenth century.10
According to Jewish law, if a person’s mother is
Jewish, then that person is automatically Jewish, regardless of the father’s
ethnicity or religion. The facts indicate that both of Lyndon Johnson’s
great-grandparents, on the maternal side, were Jewish. These were the
grandparents of Lyndon’s mother, Rebecca Baines.11
Their names were John S. Huffman and Mary Elizabeth Perrin.12
John Huffman’s mother was Suzanne Ament, a common Jewish name. Perrin is also a
common Jewish name.
Huffman and Perrin had a daughter, Ruth Ament Huffman,13
who married Joseph Baines14
and together they had a daughter, Rebekah Baines,15
Lyndon Johnson’s mother. The line of Jewish mothers can be traced back three
generations in Lyndon Johnson’s family tree. There is little doubt that he was
Jewish.
More http://www.jfkmontreal.com/johnson_highlights.htm
Finally! US and NATO found an excuse to invade Syria,to change regime and build "democracy"
like in Iraq,Afghanistan,Lybia,Egypt..etc. Syrians are you excited? I know syrians rebels are happy.
NATO will win war for them!!!
The Law of Averages says it has to work sometime.
can80, good post and I will only add that the key is the Mediterranean. Now, more than ever,
control of the Mediterranean, means control of the world And we, NATO, will not sit by and
allow Russia to control the Mediterranean.
I don't c any smiley faces in your post, but I certainly hope you r joking. How the hell Russia can control Mideterranean with only 1(!!!!!!) Navy base, which is not really a full-blown base to begin with, it's more of a refueling, replenishing and repair shop. The sea currently is a NATO lake with US troops stationed in every NATO country located on its shores. I also wonder where did the thesis of controlling the WHOLE WORLD by controlling Mideterranean Sea come from? How did you figure that out? How about Black, White, Barents, Bering, Japanese and other seas and oceans? Don't need to control them to control the world? Not important enough?
just a concern of mine that keeps surfacing and i keep trying to put it to rest, i think russia is interested in an air to air confrontation of its first line fighters vs nato's first line fighters. without the f22, im sure russia would come out looking very good and i think they are sure of that as well. of course, i am sure, any russian fighters would have syrian markings. jmo.
Turkey, Israel, Greece, Italy, France, Spain. These are strong med countries and they are all more or less on the same side. Russia is locked out of mediterranean by Turkey.
Turkey is known for telling lies and murdering millions of Christians ! Syria or any nation should shoot down a spy plane on its soil ! Look at the UK at Argentina ? Turkey has been supplying cross border terrorist that kill in Syria and return to Turkey ! Now after all of the killing and illegal occupation of Antioch -Terrorist Turkey goes pussy to baby killers from nato !
Antioch was independent when it voted to be part of Turkey.
Yes the jet had violated Syrian air space , but it was shot down outside of its air space. Its one thing to protest an airspace violation , but to shoot it down out side of your airspace. Clearly an act of aggresion. Hope it dont go to war though.
First of all Turkey is not sending their own. The ones that go to Syria are hired, a better word for this is Mercenary. They work for money indipendent of the government. Turkey has been condeming this activity but does nothing to stop it.
In a previous article Turkey said they have been doing this cross the border trick, saying the planes slide this far for while before completing the turn to come back. Also it has not been reported by Syria or Turkey that there have been ant warnings issued before this event happened.
Syria says the plane was inside their air space and Turkey says it was outside the air space today. Yesterday Turkey said it was across .62 mile and today they say it was outside. Either the reporters are wrong or Turkeys talking out both sides of its face.
I guess the location of the wreckage indicates where it was shot.
No it does not. Physics class- body in motion tends to remain in motion, etc. Not like a video war game.
Yes, So far as an armed robber runs out from the bank, he or she has committed no crime at all. he should be let go, right. Magically, Turkish military plans all of a sudden are "mistakingly" straying into Syrian territory. How convennient.
why are the british so outraged it wasn't their plane?
Clinton and the Britsh are so outraged. Where the hell was their outrage, when Israel made massive air attacks on Lebanese cities and towns in 2006, killing over 1000 people, mostly women and children?
Where was the outrage when America used "shock and awe" on Iraq over phantom WMD?
A whole lot of meaningless meetings and words being exchanged, I'm more curious about Turkish mobilization and troop movements.
Any previously unscheduled carrier battlegroups moving out of Norfolk about now?
Actions speak louder than words.
I have noticed that lately there's been a good deal of jobs offered through the Army Reserves lately; machinists, gas truck drivers/repair and maintenance folk.... just so many varied fields. It made me wonder when it started; is this gearing up for something known to 'have to happen'? What used to be civilian, now one must join the reserves to get the job. Think I'll keep looking elsewhere, thankyou.
The media sees only what they are shown, what they seldom see is the actions that go on behind the scenes.
When the Turkish army moves up to the border with Syria in strength, when the Russian Black Sea fleet sorties toward Istanbul, and the Russian airborne units deploy to their transports, when US Carrier Battle groups leave Norfolk, and when the Russian army mobilizes on the border of the Ukraine, all are serious indications that the bubble is about to burst.
Most Americans are ignorant of the danger, as they sit at a midwest baseball stadium watching the game, until they see American ICBMs rise out of their silos on the way to their targets on the other side of the world.
Only then will some Americans realize that the incoming ICBMs will hit home in a matter of minutes.....
It's a very dangerous world, and some people need to get a clue as to how quickly situations can escalate to nuclear armageddon.
Calling for military action is not a game to be played lightly.
CPO Sharkey, yes, this is a very complicated ordeal. Russia's sole Mediterranean base is Latakia, Syria. Turkey is a NATO country. Syria continues to have strong influence over Lebanon and is the supplier of weapons to the Hezbollah terrorists--both are proxies for the Iranians. The Saudis would love nothing better than to see Assad's Alawite regime fall and be replaced with a Saudi-friendly Sunni regime--stealing an Arab nation away from the Iranians. If Turkey/NATO attacks Syria in response, what will the Russians do? They likely would not directly confront NATO forces, however, they could easily complicate things further--perhaps a staged event to give them 'cause' to invade Georgia (Tblisi, not Atlanta). The Iranians and Syrians may give Hezbollah the 'green light' to throw everything they have at Israel (with Hamas likely to follow). Would the Israelis then respond only directly against Hamas and Hezbollah, or would this give them the 'excuse' to try to knock out nuclear facilities in Iran? This could get out of hand pretty fast...
Still foaming at the mouth with your Bush/Cheney disorder, Gary? That's quite a long time to still be experiencing symptoms. I recommend seeing a physician for a full medical work up.
Darkrunner, the pugbags still have Carter/Clinton (CDS) disorder, maybe he caught it from you guys. Did you go to a physician for a full medical work up?
So the plane was in their airspace and was shot down, but crashed in international waters. What's the story exactly? That's right, no story just media prep for NATO getting involved.
No, it went into Syrian airspace 0.62 miles and then turned back. But the decision to fire was already made by then I guess.
Here is the REAL message in this episode: Turkey has admitted their jet strayed momentarily into Syrian airspace and corrected the pilot, who immediately flew to international airspace. Syria admits to shooting the plane down AFTER IT LEFT SYRIAN AIRSPACE several minutes before -- but Syria denies downing the aircraft was an ATTACK! What does Syria consider and attack? Apparently nothing is an attack to them.
What's the big deal? The US shot down an Iranian airliner flying in Iranian air space from a ship in Iranian waters and refused to take responsibility for it. As VP George H. W. Bush put it "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are". This should be no big deal right?
Well, I imagine due to the fact that there was a war going on, and two Iraqi aircraft had launched successfull attacks on two different US Navy ships, got the guys on those ships abit punchy with their buttons... maybe you should put yourself in their shoes.
Is that why two other US ships in the area identified it as an airliner while a captain known for picking a fight didn't? Any little excuse to pass off blame, right? Also I fail to see how attacks by Iraq make Iran a target but hay that's just me.
Swan37- you are correct. Bush I was a cowardly sociopathic thug just as his cocaine addict son.
Speaking of cocaine, you forgot to mention Obama. Just thought I would remind you and Obama's union thugs.
Obviously, their new IADS sent to them from Former Soviet Russia, has some glitches in its IFF programming. Those rockets see the plane and fire... it could be a kite and they would fire. They just got abit punchy with the buttons. NATO rules though, an attack on one is an attack on all. They may have done this on purpose in order to get NATO involved militarily.
Imagine that MSNBC has yet another picture of Bush on their channel. They know he isn't running again right?
Turkey is waiting for NATO to take action? Good luck with that approach, ask most any Central African, Serb or Croat where that path leads