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Subscribe to RSSShahzad Akbar, an anti-drone lawyer in Islamabad, talks about his view of America and its policies.
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – When attorney Shahzad Akbar began filing lawsuits against the Pakistan government on behalf of drone strike victims in 2010, some of his close friends started calling him "Taliban lawyer."
"But now, two years later, they don't do that anymore," he said.
In many ways the effects of the nearly nine-year U.S. program of targeted drone missile strikes in Pakistan were largely hidden from the rest of the world for many years. The strikes have been conducted in Pakistan's rugged and remote tribal region bordering Afghanistan – an area nearly impossible for outsiders to visit and from which it is incredibly difficult to extract reliable and timely information.
But Akbar's work through his Foundation for Fundamental Rights has raised awareness of the strikes among the general Pakistani population – at the same time anti-American sentiment from a failing alliance with the U.S. is on the rise. He said his mission is to seek justice on behalf of innocent civilians killed in the drone attacks.
"The situation on the ground is not what the U.S. government says, that they're only targeting militants," said Akbar. "The situation on the ground is that a huge number of civilians are being killed."
Part of the problem, according to Akbar, is that until recently, most Pakistanis didn't know or didn't care about the drone strikes. But public political anger, denouncing the strikes as a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty, has helped draw attention to the issue over the last few years.
Today, drones have become a political touchstone, regularly decried as part of politician's campaign speeches, prominently featured in fiery protest rallies, and sitting squarely at the center of a diplomatic war of words between the U.S. and Pakistan.
Collateral damage
Akbar's legal challenges come as a recent poll shows considerable opposition in countries around the world to the U.S. drone campaign. The Pew Research Center study found that more than half of those polled in 17 of 20 countries disapprove of the use of drone strikes to target extremists. However, Americans see things very differently and largely support their use, with only 38 percent disapproving.
Though public perception may help him to gain traction, Akbar said his cases are based on the evidence he's gathering from strike locations in coordination with communities in North Waziristan, the tribal agency in which the overwhelming majority of strikes have occurred. That cache of evidence includes everything from family testimonies and images of the identifiable bodies and body parts recovered from the attack sites, to actual fragments of the Hellfire missiles fired from the remotely-piloted drones.
"I believe in very simple principles that were taught to us by the West," said Akbar. "That everyone is presumed innocent unless proven guilty. So anyone who is killed in drone strikes, unless and until his guilt is established in some independent forum – that person is innocent."
Noor Behram, a journalist in North Waziristan, Pakistan, describes his views of the United States.
According to the London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a not-for-profit organization basing its study on reports from government officials, media reports, and academic sources, anywhere between 2,486 and 3,188 people have been killed in 332 U.S. drones strikes inside Pakistan since 2004. The fact that the report is based on wide-ranging and conflicting reports, speaks to the difficulty of establishing hard facts in this part of the world. Similarly, the same report also estimated that the number of civilians killed in those strikes ranges from 482 to 832.
According to another study done by the New America Foundation, a non-profit public policy institute in Washington, D.C., a total of 43 men identified as "militant leaders" were killed in those strikes.
A major point of controversy is who counts as a “civilian” versus a “combatant.” The Obama administration defines all military-age males in a strike zone as “combatants,” unless there is explicit posthumous evidence proving them innocent, according to a report in the New York Times.
Pakistanis who live in those strike zones dispute that definition, and claim innocent women and children are being killed as well. But the administration’s broad definition does help explain how they could reach a very low, civilian casualty count as a result of drone attacks.
U.S. officials, who – for the first time – publicly admitted using drones in April of this year, have said the strikes are "targeted...against specific al-Qaida terrorists" and are carried out "in full accordance with the law, and in order to prevent terrorist attacks on the United States and save American lives."
But Akbar argues that the identities of many killed are unknown, that nearby children are often killed by flying shrapnel, and that any "collateral damage" deaths are simply impossible to justify – even when a "high-value" terrorist is killed as a result.
"The problem is that no one cares if ‘nobody’ is killed, and by ‘nobody,’ I mean a person who is nobody. A person who is probably just living in that area, has no money, no education, no representation," said Akbar. "The point here is that if we are successful in killing one or two people who we really want to kill, and in order to do that we kill 40 people – who cares? And this is a sad kind of attitude we have from the American government and unfortunately from my own government."
‘Can’t help but be angry…’
In order to represent the families of civilian drone strikes victims in court, Akbar first had to win their trust, which has been an uphill battle in communities that see themselves are separate and distinct from the rest of country. Many in the targeted areas are under-represented and under-funded on the national level, and feel more kinship to their fellow ethnic tribesmen across the border in Afghanistan than with the Pakistani population east of their northwest territory.
"When we started working in Waziristan in 2010, that was the seventh year of the drone strikes," said Akbar. "People had no trust in their own countrymen. They said, ‘You have not looked after us, you haven't really cared what was happening here, so why would we now talk to you and give you evidence of what's really happening here?’"
NBC News speaks with citizens from around the globe, asking the question, 'What Does America Mean to You?'
So Akbar partnered with Noor Behram, a soft-spoken journalist and father of six, born and raised in North Waziristan, who had witnessed and documented multiple drone strikes in his own area, and was wondering why no one in the rest of the world seemed to care.
"When you live in an area where there is war, where there is suffering, where there are drone attacks, where there's not proper reporting about what's going on…. Even if you're a professional, you can't help but become angry at what you see,” said Behram. “You start to wonder how you can take the voices you hear and carry them to the rest of the world."
Behram established a notification system based on walkie-talkies and a trusted network of sources across the region where curfews and rough terrain can make it difficult to travel quickly from one area to another. When the attacks occur nearby, as many do to his home in Miramshah, he says he is often the first one with a camera at the site. Entire buildings are reduced to rubble heaps. Residual fires burn in nearby homes or businesses. Crowds gather to dig through the wreckage for survivors and gather body parts.
The frequency with which the strikes are carried out, Behram said, has his community on edge.
"People are very worried, very tense all the time," he said. "When the missile is fired from the plane, there is a loud explosion. When it hits the ground, it makes a terrifying noise. The people below, they just start running. Pieces of missile, they fly everywhere, very far, into other people's houses."
Despite experiencing strikes so close to his home that he and his family have been forced to flee in the middle of the night, Behram said he harbors no anger towards the American people – it's their policies, he says, that should be reviewed.
"I think, even if they said, 'we've killed 100 terrorists,' and just one child was also killed…If you, at that time, you see that child's body, you talk to his mother and father – I think, for me, this is a very serious thing,” he said. “That one child, sitting in his house, could be killed like this.”
Behram patiently documents what he sees, sometimes spending hours with reluctant family members to convince them to share their testimony for the lawsuits being filed.
"I tell them there are people who want to help you. If you want help, then I can talk to them for you," Behram said. "Because if you don't talk to them or let them help you, I don't know what will happen next."
‘I want to give them their rights’
Working together, Akbar and Behram have gathered evidence for 13 petitions filed in Islamabad and Peshawar courts, most of which are filed against the government of Pakistan. In total, the lawsuits represent 71 families who have lost 100 family members in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan.
Despite the fact that he can only legally file suit within Pakistan, Akbar said three of the cases do involve criminal litigation against current and former U.S. officials, including an alleged former CIA station chief and a former CIA legal counsel. But taking on a U.S. administration loathe to even acknowledge the classified program, much less engage legally on the matter, means that those lawsuits are largely intended to send a message at this stage – that he, and the people he represents, hold both Pakistani and U.S. officials responsible for the deaths of their family members.
"I want justice for these people so they feel that they're part of the system," said Behram. "Because on the one side we ask them to behave and fall in line….and on the other side, we don't give them any rights. I want to give them their rights."
This story is part of a series by msnbc.com and NBC News "What the World Thinks of US". The series aims to check the pulse on current perceptions of America's global stature during the election year and ahead of our annual Independence Day. Share your thoughts about this story and our series on Twitter using #AmericaMeans
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Leave a Comment:
For many Americans, Pakistan means taliban, and other terrorists.
Pakistan has hated Americans for decades. I can't imagine we have sunk any lower on the approval scale, but perhaps we have. The problem is the bad guys stay and live amongst the population and thus using drones, no matter how accurate will kill others around them or at the very least injury them. I can't imagine the horror of never knowing when another drone attack will occur.
I am one of those that disagrees with drone usage as a hit instrument. I think the surveillance for information, or even taking down a military training camp would be permissible, but just going after one individual amongst so many with so much collateral damage is sickening.
Look who are talking! They are trying to be too smart even after getting exposed from all sides!
Pakis are talking of justice!
They must be dreaming in some seventh century Islamic desert caves!
If Pakistan "cleaned" it's own house, terrorists who kill their own people, the US wouldn't have to do it. As long as Pakistan does nothing, I have no problem with US drones taking out terrorist threats.
They think of Drones when thinking of the USA? That is so awesome! When I think of Pakistan thoughts of a dirty corrupt cesspool of a country where we still put a bullet in the eye of their now dead brother bin laden........you can level his house as a cover and sweep the debris but be still got him Paki's!!
Oh one major housekeeping agenda item, please cut ALL their funding as they are worthless POS.............
IMHO - DITTO
America has lost its squeaky clean appearance of helping those in need, Americas arrogance, thanks to the internet is well known by many all over the world, and too tell you the truth, for lots of Americans 'USA' means 'drones!'
Many of you who think you are "do-gooders," could never comprehend those drones over America will be watching you too. America is for the rich, the super rich, if you don't fit that profile, you'll be watched too.
Better a thousand drones than one American flag draped coffin.
Please, do you have ANY US Military credentials to back up that statement?
My statement should have continued to say: for lots of Americans, 'USA' means 'drones,' OVER America! They are here, and they are here to stay.
Moshuluu, you sound like a terrorist wanna be? Hey, the 4th of July is coming up and if you can light some fireworks without blowing your fingers off you passed the first test.
You can then tell your friends of your achievment and wear the full firework jacket and do in your family and friends in the name of Allah. Ha Ha...towel head....Ohhh, hear that over your head?? BZZZZZZZ.......
Yea, Moshuluu, I have a folded flag on my mantle.
For about two decades - the reason is pretty simple - Pakistan was the conduit to Afghanistan during the Cold War, and they helped kick Russia out. During that time, we told the Pakistanis we were their best friends, and we used Pakistan as a base to get into Afghanistan. Pakistan thinks they sacrificed a lot for us, as friends, during the years of this war.
And of course, when the Russians left, so did we, caring not at all what happened to our 'friends.' The chaos we left in Afghanistan spilled over into Pakistan, eventually it reached into New York and we invaded Afghanistan again.
But now when we went back this time, they had absolutely no intention of giving us anything for free, every single al-Qaeda target, every single supply truck has been paid for. Osama bin Laden was being held for the same reason, they would sell him to us eventually.
Of course they hate us. If you were a Pakistani, would you feel any different?
More than half of the people in other countries hate the idea of drones, but for some reason, the polls say that Americans approve. But we approve of drones over OTHER countries. We have already seen of what we think of drones over America. Even Fox News thinks it's a bad idea.
Yea Pakistan now means " The place where Terrorists hide" However Goerge Bush was the most ignorant President we've ever had no wonder the world hates U.S. Raised as a Catholic I ask God to take the life of President Bush every night before i go to sleep.Oh yea and I think the Republican party is organized and trying to kill this country.Where is the FBI oh yea... they are looking for Marijuana!!!! Morons
@Byron
If for one moment you believe that Pakistan was not, has not, and is not acting in a WHOLLY self serving fashion, then please illustrate.
Pakistan did not want communism on it's border and that is the reason they chose to take up the gauntlet. They EXPECTED more financial gain from the USA and other countries afterward, and hoped for an endless meal ticket.
When they did not get what they EXPECTED, even though it was never promised, they tried to extort it. Then like much of the dirty politic of the world, they implemented back door avenues to sell their cooperation to whomever bid the most.
Many of the Pakistani citizens are really nice people (women it seems) but they have little control over their governments actions and corruptions, or it's immoral tendencies.
Expecting US citizens to care what happens over there is simply not something they have earned. You won't find anyone here lobbying for the salvation of Pakistan unless they themselves are serving their OWN illicit interests.
@ Hatchet, don't bother with Bywrong the anti-American troll.
Pakistan needs to STOP HARBORING TERRORISTS who use the frontier provinces to launch attacks into Afghanistan, then they won't have to worry about any drone strikes.
The drones are DIRECT result of the unwillingness or inability of Pakistani authorities to dislodge al-Qaida and Taliban from their country.
If the locals did not allow the Taliban safe haven then there would be no innocents killed. They brought this upon themselves!
American Christians Motto: Do Unto Others As You Wouldnt Have Them Do To You
I cant wait for foreign nations to fly drones over the US and take out "terrorists" wherever they think they see them.
I mean, we have to root out terrorism dont we? If it's ok over there, I cant imagine why ANYONE wouldnt think it was ok over here.
people "If the locals did not allow the Taliban safe haven then there would be no innocents killed. They brought this upon themselves!"
spoken like a true ignorant..you know, to them they arent "terrorists"...they are just people fighting for their freedom against the colonialists (americans).
Question, if China called our debt - and decided to repo us, invaded us and bombed us...and you took up arms to fight back against them...would YOU be a terrorist?
Better question: if a group of americans decided to blow up the biggest building in China, because they had some beef against their human rights, and China took that as an opportunity to invade and occupy us (just as we did with 9/11 and afghanistan) and you took up arms to fight back against the occupation...would YOU be a terrorist?
of course not, YOU'RE AN AMERICAN...you cant EVER be a terrorist can you?
Only foreign brown people are terrorists, arent they?
I suppose Death from the Sky is better than some German Geographer from the Middle Ages.
Seven2Seven, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 and #5 of the Code of Honor.
Attorney Shahzad Akbar is acting like a typical Paki in his seventh century barbaric and beastly Islamic hell hole.
Before commenting or giving highly partisan unbelievable interviews like this, he should come out of his hell hole and look at all sides.
This interview is another instance how some of these Islamic religious Nazis can close their eyes when required and focus in one direction it suits them.
Most of them can't be reformed as religious extremism is the worst form of opium addiction.
And many in Pakistan have crossed the limits and they have become major heroin addicts on rampage in Pakistan and in many places around the world!
Here another bunch of bigoted barbaric, beastly Islamic religious Nazis of Sunni Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and others are providing finances by keeping us busy in Iraq wars and using them as a cover for high oil price manipulations at our back.
These two groups are responsible for the current 80 percent of world problems including economic devastations all around.
Check out Google Earth sometime. You can find a picture on the internet of your house, including your backyard swingset, trampoline, trees, etc. We have drones now folks.
We should stop all aid money to Pakistan and stop issuing Visas to the Pakis to come here. All of the Pakis here are a national security threat anyway and they should have their Visas revoked and be sent home. No more money and no more Visas to the Pakis. And MOSHULUU, I sure have the military credentials to back up my statement.
I think it's hard to understand the real truth unless you're a corrupted politician. No matter what country you are from, some politicians may have good intentions in the beginning.. but the truth is they all become corrupted or dead. So they know the truth.. and the truth is none of this will get better because there is evil in everything..you have a choice as a citizen, soldier or whomever to make any small difference you can because in reality none of this will ever change. There will always be hatred and war and each country's people will do what they have to, to protect their families and their right to be free.
If the government of Pakistan hadn't been trying to play both sides of the Jihad game for a decade and actually gone after the Taliban and al-Qaeda Jihadists, there might not be a need to send in drones to take out the trash with punks like I'm All Whacky and whoever the latest al-Qaeda #2 is (or was).
It's always a bad deal when innocents are killed in the crossfire of war, but the bottom line is the Jihadists have been waging war with the U.S. for TWO GENERATIONS, and while I may not agree with or support our every move we've made in the past decade, I'm glad that quite a few of them have been sent off to the happy virgin hunting grounds by Predator drones !!
This is simply one-sided and partisan reporting.
Pakis mean Islamic radicals and terrorists in most of the non-Muslim nations.
They are behind Islamic terrorist attacks in most of the non-Muslim nations.
They had a hand in 9/11 too.
They are also regarded as freeloaders abusing welfare measures in our nations.
Half of NATO forces deaths in Afghanistan are due to them.
When the NATO forces were entering Kandahar in 2001, Pakis airlifted key al-Qaida, Taliban, ISI and others militants by back door from Kandahar.
This includes Mullah Omar, Osama and many including Paki Haqqani militant network leaders.
Hope Osama case has opened the eyes of many who trusted Pakis.
Many Pakis have proved to be most ungrateful backstabbers and Islamic religious Nazis.
If we start suing Pakis for the damages they have done in our nations, even Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other oil rich nations' wealth will not be enough to pay for damages!
you say this as if America (our govt) doesnt behave exactly the same way towards "friendly nations".
of course we do...do you think we dont do similar things with regards to Russia and China? Heck, even the brits are aware that our "friendship" goes only so far, and we'd just as quick backstab them if it benefitted us...than to "be a good friend" if it hurt us.
come on, get real...wake up to the real world.
you seem hopelessly lost in some delusional land where only "they" are the bad guys and we are always the good guys.
Just wanted to add - let's not forget that we backstab our own people.
The reagan administration pulling off a backroom deal BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED to ensure the release of the hostages until after he was elected...
Then comes Iran-Contra...
sorry, but we are just as rotten as the rest of the world...we just prefer rose colored glasses.
Jessica, all governments are corrupt. Get over it. Pakistan has created this nightmare for themselves by playing both sides against the middle. What's really at stake here is fanaticism and tyranny. We can at least vote against fanaticism. Tyranny comes from letting people get too rich or too greedy.
Jesicca: It will be better if you know/care about the history of Afghan and Paki regions right from the days Islam came to that region.
British invented Pakistan and wanted to have a monkey on the back of India to pull it down always.
But for the US help, Pakistan would have been wiped out of the map.
Still the most ungrateful Paki Islamic religious beasts have backstabbed its main supporter when the US needs them most!
Let me not post more details as I have been highlighting them in my posts!
Jessica is a good christian and not biased. Pls keep it up.
Jessica, "Tyranny comes from letting people get too rich or greedy!" Wouldn't that thought also include the US Banksters, and Mormon Mitt and His Comrades ??
more most Americans..Pakistan= Islamic terrorist/radicals.....hence drones.....they have brought it on themselves
Agreed.... They need to keep their religion to themselves and mind their own business before they get blown up by drones lol.
If their backstabbing in Afghanistan by supporting Haqqani network and other Islamic militants continue, to reduce NATO forces' losses in Afghanistan carpet bomb Paki militant areas in Pakistan just like 1991 Iraqi war.
If Pakis don't care about human lives in their religious madness, why should we worry?
We had enough garbage from them!
no it is not
all true Remember Pakistan also fought 14 years side by side with US against
Russia & Pakistan lost almost all his economic progress , & long time
ago & to the Bush administration Pakistanis remind that you always abounded
ur trusted friends, so it does happened during Soviet aggression & now it
is again happening Pakistan is angry that USA is now leaving alone & bring
India to its western border . So that's why they are not cooperating. do u know
that supply they halted ( which's very bad at this time of War) but their is
reasons ( Pakistan in South Asia keeps one of the best roads) which is
destroyed by 1600 miles journey by heavy loaded trucks now they are paying $250
dollar which is nothing ( i am not saying they should exploit the situation )
but Both should work on some reasonable given 7 take after all both are married
to each other since 1947,
Pakistanis are
angry when an Indian actor was randomly checked at airport USA offer & did
a complete formal apology & sorry , but when allot of soldiers killed ( who
are helping to control borders in order to keep Terrorist under pressure ,) US
refused to say formal sorry , I think this one wrong stand is hurting relation
, why USA not realize when India was on side of Russia during cold war in 80s Afghanistan
conflict, & hurting USA efforts, it was Pakistan scarified with his blood
,after the war is over USA turns against Pakistan & become friend of
Pakistan,
Te problem is
that USA
still don't know its friends, because it is due to lobbyist , common American don't
know allot.
So realizing
the situation & work together like
good friends is a great benefit for both
.
The US has NO friends in the area! Get us out and let the locals sort it out without our help or money.
hayat, much of what you are saying is true, but it doesn't change the fact that the Taliban and al Qaeda want to kill Westerners, and Americans in particular, and they have no problems with killing innocent civilians, including children.
Our use of drones to target Taliban may result in civilian casualties, but at least we are not deliberately killing children like the Taliban do.
@ Hayat: Mistakes happen in war, the problem is Pakistan unquestionably allows terrorists to reside within their borders and even control parts of their country. Which in turn gives them a staging point for sending cross border attacks into Afghanistan, providing man-power and weapons to aid terrorists in Afghanistan.
Where's Pakistan's apology for all the multi-national troop deaths in Afghanistan? Where's Pakistan's thanks for all the billions of dollars in aid the US sent their way? All in all, we honestly don't care what Pakistan thinks. They've proven they cannot be trusted, and are not worth the aid money we send there. Pakistan has 173 million people in it, if they aren't willing to step up and force extremists out of their midst, we shouldn't be sending them aid in any way shape or form...why provide a future for people just bent on oppressing freedoms of others?
The one thing I can promise you is, until the Pakistani people take an active role in removing the threats to other nations, from their own country, drone strikes will continue, and the American people won't care about it.
^^^
Excellent FACT, many could never comprehend!
Bravo!!
A fact? Its actually a lie. Our first war against Muslims was so long ago its; actually a line in the Marine hymn. "...to the shores of Tripoli" commenmorates our war against marauding Muslims in 1804. Jew haters always have a lie at the ready for these boards. Before Israel the Palestinians sided with the Nazis. Those are the folks beloved by Progressives. Truth is much more painful than the lies eh wat?
Yep, as usual, it is all India's fault.
Pakistan remains one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and they haven't run out of lies yet.
They have only run out of countries that will believe them.
Putting the doctor that discovered and exposed Bin Laden in prison says far too much.
Pakistani government will obviously shake your hand with the unwashed hand they just wiped their backside with, and call you friend, as long as the charity rolls in.
Sadly, this holds true of my EVERY personal experience with Pakistani natives and immigrants that have relocated to this area.
Well, our first war was against Christians; it was against Britain, which is a Christian nation. Or do you think America fought our enemies, who happened to be Christians? Just like we are still fighting our enemies, some of whom happen to be Muslim?
Because by your logic, we are also at war with Christendom. Perhaps you need to re-think this.
When you invite a terrorist into your home...maybe you should be aware that a Hellfire missile isn't far behind! Give cover to our enemies and you die.
so what is being done when some paki islamist blows himself up on a bus crowded with innocent women and children the us drone did not do that his own relative might have
For many Americans, Pakistan means "Terrorists", "Primitive Barbarians" or something similar
Pakistan believes there are good terrorists and bad terrorists. Stop sending your 'good terrorists' around the World and maybe you will get some sympathy, until then, the World will not care about you. Get over yourself.
if you don't want to be a bombing range then force the targets out or stand up to them and stop being human shields
these whackjob cave people are always angry regardless of what the west does or doesnt do. instead of drone attacks we should just nuke the entire area from the mountains of pakistan to all of afghanistan level it all.
The "innocent" people are knowingly harboring and hiding terrorists.
So, by your method of thinking, the "innocent" people in America are harboring all the criminals and other wrong doers, simply by living in America. Ludicrous!
Americans don't harbor them. We just vote them into political offices and let them help the uber-rich corporations to rape our economy, send our jobs over seas and not be heald accountable for it.
Yes, lots of people in Chicago , East LA , Atlanta, Phoenix hide/harbor "urban terrorists!! Nuke them all !!
Example: Killer in Tacoma killed 4 police while they sat in a coffee shop about 3 years ago in cold blood. Then the Killer's family helped in his escape.
Chicago is the most dangerous city in the world right now! Evil is everywhere but some of the worst is in our own inner cities ! Let's get those drones with hell fire missiles over our inner cities ASAP ! Stop making the US weapon manufacturers rich (our main export).
Police our cities and our borders!! Stop trying to police the other 200 countries in the world----Its a hopeless, stupid, endless, cycle!! Recent failures: Viet Nam, Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Somolia, Afganistan, Iran, etc.
Better in Pakistan than in America. Drones in our skies is the bigger concern.
In another 10 to 20 years when we win this battle, how are we going to deal with the rest of the world that hates us ?
dude.
i've lived abroad on several continents when i was young.
they've always hated us... success breeds hatred
Success breeds envy.
Arrogance breeds hatred.
James, it's not "us" they hate, it's our government. I don't blame them.
Look, the reality is the masses of people are poor. The RICH DICTATORS have the Imam point at the West and say, "It is the Jew". The masses are so busy looking that the "Jew in the West" that they don't see that their own leaders are keeping them poor and uneducated.
I think the word is getting out that it is not the "West and the Jew" that is the problem...well, unless you think that the "West" is run by Jews and the West supports the government that is keeping you down...think Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait...hell the entire Islamic World is living under dictatorships that are supported by the West. Well, Everyone except for Iran and Syria...
So...we better start telling the POPULATIONS of the countrys that are in revolution WHY we support their dictators or we will really be in deep do do.
Why do we support these dictators? Oh, yes...so we can drive gas hogs. Hmmm? This is really twisted. Well, got to run. Gots to fill my Hemmi...Sarcasm.
It is yet another reason why we should just leave.
For us to chase after the Taliban in a sensible way requires that we use drones. Unfortunately this means colateral damage, and it means making people in the world suspect and hate us more. So its a no win situation for us, we should just leave.
If the Taliban create bases that threaten us, then we can take those out. If they stay in the tribal regions of Pakistan, they really are little threat to us.
this goes under the heading of... slow news day.
PS - MSDNC - we really don't give a sh!t what they think.
Bring on the drones!!!
Pakistan is a cesspool of unjustifiably angry dirty men who terrorize their woman and try to force their stupid ideology on everyone else. GO TO HELL PAKISTAN
I nearly pissed my pants laughing at this ... change a couple words and it still rings true
Based on an idealology of stupidity, ignorance and arrogance, I'm sure there will be a number of flag wavers who will pounce on me for expressing the truth as many see it. In the USA, you are brought up to blindly believe that only the US matters and everyone else is wrong. Nobody is encouraged to look at the other side of the coin because the US has a monopoly on one-sided coins. You can do no wrong and you are always right. The rest of the world can have an opinion but it's unimportant and trivial because, well, the US is always right and therefore justified in any action they partake in.
The rest of the world can see this ... when will you?
If the people of the world wish to charge Obama with murder, genocide, hate crimes against humanity they should do so now. They should take Obama to the Hague and put him on trial.
Who cares?
Pakistani's ought to look into their own government and military practices first.
For all Americans the federal government means drones.
They are above as we speak.
You got a problem with drones?
Here's a simple concept. Attacks launched from a country (whether with government support or not) on another country is considered an act of war. There is indisputable evidence that armed insurgents cross the border from Pakistan into Afghanistan attacking ANA and ISAF troops. If Pakistan doesn't have the will to govern and/or exert control over the border region, how can they claim this is sovereign territory. Making the case that it is sovereign territory, implies that the attacks launched from Pakistan have the support of the government of Pakistan. You can't have it both ways.
So we should declare war on Mexico?
Camo Jock, when Mexico had raiders coming into the United States, we sent the Army into Mexico to wipe them out. Do you read American History at all?
I do read history of all types not just American.
The point is that this is happening right now. Shouldn't we be stopping the Mexicans coming into America. Isn't there actions (Killing, raping, trafficking drugs, etc.) "considered an act of war" per M4's post?
So, our administration "defines all military-age males in a strike zone as 'combatants,' unless there is explicit posthumous evidence proving them innocent" does it? Imagine the public outrage in the U.S. if our law enforcement agencies operated on the same premise in the continuing war against drugs!
No, we would give our law enforcement Noble Peace Prizes... :)
They hid Bin Ladin, support the Taliban, and helped Korea with their nuclear program, and their government was involved in terrorist attacks on India.
Tell the terrorists to stop hiding behind innocent civilians. We're supposed to believe they value human life? There's been no evidence of that yet.
could not agree with you more sam
Who cares what Pakistan thinks of us? We have tried to treat them honorably and they treat us with treachery and deciet. We as a country should not be allies with them, they are giving material support and shelter to our enemies.... that makes them our enemies.
When I think of some of the remote, out-of-the-way filling stations I've stopped at and found to have deplorable restrooms, I think of Pakistan. I really do. I imagine the entire "tribal region" is exactly like that never-cleaned rarely-plunged toilet.
Next when you stop at some remote, out-of-the-way filling station you have found with a deplorable restroom, look into your own soul. It is the cesspool that makes you spew forth such filth.
The people of Pakistan would love to have one of those deplorable restrooms. However, they would probably appreciate it enough to keep it clean.
The US should pull out of Pakistan and all the other countries. They don't want our help, fine don't force it on them. Let Al Qaeda and the Taliban run their lives. Need to stop terrorism? That is what our nuclear arsenal is for. Make it clear, they attack us, we vaporize them. All of them. All we are doing now is acting as a recruiting machine and a very effective one at that.
That is pretty much what they want. You know we give $1.6B of aid to Egypt? Do you know how? The money then comes back to the US, they are required to buy arms from our defense contractors. This money is never seen by the common Egyptian. Same for all the 'aid' we give to Pakistan - it all goes to the elites.
What they DO see is that the elites are rich because we give them money, and the elites aren't really answerable to the public because they are powerful due to our support.
The best we could do is pull out, cut off all aid, save our own money, and if they public wants to hang their elites, let them sort themselves out. It's not our problem and it shouldn't be.
It's going to happen anyway - look at the Arab spring. We already have their hatred because we helped support their oppressors. But we can't change the past. At least, we can say 'well, we pulled out and let you figure it out for yourself.'
I say we leave 'em all alone and kill 'em with kindness. Why? because the killing doesn't seem to be working.
@Righteous - While I don't agree with using nukes anywhere in the world due to the fact that it will harm many more than just the intended, including ourselves, I do agree with your statement of "They don't want our help, fine don't force it on them."
@Byron - "The best we could do is pull out, cut off all aid, save our money." Should have done that 30 years ago at least, work on making the US impenetrable, protect our own borders and trade only within our own states and a few select countries, continueing to build our technologies and become completely self reliant, with an extreme focus on educating our own. In essence, worry about ourselves and only ourselves. We're not the police for the world nor are we the grab bag for handouts that will never be repaid. We seem to always give give give to everyone else and do nothing for our own population at home.
Byron, you identified the whole problem with the statement "The money then comes back to the US, they are required to buy arms from our defense contractors." This problem will never go away, there is too much money at stake and Citizens United was developed to insure this. War is business and business is very good.
President Eisenhower warned the nation about this in 1961, but it was already too late. It was shoved under the rug.
avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/eisenhower001.asp
America projects it's power in a very dictatorial way outside America. Americans have the good life because we rape and plunder the entire planet. Please read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" to get started if this is news to you.
Islam is the enemy because it prohibits interest. Islam tells the rulers of this world that slavery is about to end.
The matrix is real:
matrixisreal.wordpress.com
The movie Matrix tells you what is going on using analogies. You are only a battery to the global elite. You are paying interest for money that is created out of nothing when you borrow. You are slaves. But you are not even aware. You think this is how life is supposed to be. Millions die every year to support the rule of the elite, yet you do not care. You make war on terror because media tells you you are under danger. On 9/11/2001, 3000 people died in World Trade Center. And 24,000 children died of hunger on that same day and every single day! Which war did we fight? We could have won the war against poverty.
And you are surprised to see people flying into buildings?