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Subscribe to RSSMohammed Morsi officially became the president of Egypt on Saturday, as a new era of government takes shape. NBC's Kate Snow reports.
Egypt's first Islamist president, Mohammed Morsi, took his oath of office on Saturday, ending six decades of rule by former military men although the generals in charge since Hosni Mubarak was ousted last year have already curbed his powers.
Morsi was sworn in before the Supreme Constitutional Court, rather than parliament as is usual. The Islamist-led lower house was dissolved by the same court shortly before this month's run-off presidential election.
"I swear by Almighty God that I will sincerely protect the republican system and that I respect the constitution and the rule of law," Morsi said, after making the same declaration a day earlier in front of tens of thousands of people in Tahrir Square.
Egypt, Mother of the World, turns new page; citizens await results
"I will look after the interests of the people and protect the independence of the nation and safety of its territory," he said before the head of the constitutional court Farouk Soltan and other judges.
'The will of the people'
He was speaking in the court building next to the Cairo hospital where the jailed former president has been moved.
Morsi said a civilian and constitutional state had been "born today," in his comments after swearing the oath. The ceremony was broadcast by state media.
As Morsi takes office, many fear the 'Islamization of Egyptian society'
One of the judges, Maher Sami, began the ceremony by saying that event had "no parallel in all of Egypt's history and was created by the will of the people."
In his inaugural address to the nation, Morsi began by paying tribute to the martyrs of the revolution and vowed to honor their sacrifices through his work and the administration's work.
He reiterated points he has made repeatedly before about working to strengthen Egypt's economy and restarting investment and trade.
Israel treaty safe
He also said Egypt would abide by all of its international treaties and obligations -- meaning the 33-year-old peace treaty with Israel -- and promised to work to make Egypt a modern civil state that upholds laws and abides by the constitution.
"We carry a message of peace to the world," Morsi said in a segment intended to reassure the world that his tenure posed no threat to regional order.
New York-area politicians condemn Egypt's new leader over bid to free terrorist
He struck a rather defiant tone by saying on more than one occasion that the Egyptian people had democratically elected a parliament and that the will of the people must be respected.
He promised the state would be made up of democratic institutions and that the military would return to its bases and its role of defending the country. He promised to strengthen and develop the Armed Forces and to keep Egypt's judiciary independent.
On foreign policy, Morsi said he we would stand with the Palestinian people until they achieved their legitimate rights and sovereignty over their land. He added that he would work to help Palestinian national reconciliation.
Huge crowds are expected to gather to see Egypt's new president Mohammed Morsi take an oath of office on Saturday. NBC's Brian Williams reports.
Morsi said Egypt stood with the people of Syria and that the bloodshed must end. In a nod to Arab monarchies, he promised Egypt would not attempt to export its revolution to other countries and that Egypt would not accept other countries interfering in its domestic affairs.
On Friday, Morsi defied the ruling generals by reading a symbolic oath of office in Tahrir Square, where Egypt's revolution was born.
"Everybody is hearing me now. The government ... the military and the police. ... No power above this power," he told the tens of thousands of mostly Islamist supporters packing the square. "I reaffirm to you I will not give up any of the president's authorities. I can't afford to do this. I don't have that right."
Post-revolution Egyptians to US: Stay out
At one point, Morsi opened his jacket to show the crowd he was not wearing a bulletproof vest, then declared he "fears no one but God."
"We love you Morsi!" the crowd roared in response as the 60-year-old U.S.-trained engineer left the podium to get closer to the cheering crowd.
AFP - Getty Images
An image grab taken from Egypt's Nile TV shows Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi taking the oath of office during a swearing-in ceremony at the Constitutional Court in Cairo Saturday.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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This changes nothing as long as the military and SCC can impose their will; they're the ones with the legal and actual firepower. Morsi may as well be addressed as "Mr. President-with-Guns-Pointed-to-Head". Or Borough President. Either one.
By the sound and content of his speech he must have taken some lessons from Obama.
Stupid to drag U.S. politics into this. There is no comparison between the U.S. and Egypt; for one, they have a totally different system of government.
floyd-
By the sound of most politicians, or their equivalent worldwide, it's certain they all came from the same mold and follow the same tactics. Why do you Neo-Natal-Nazi-Cons insist Bush was this terrific president when plenty of evidence shows otherwise? Bush didn't really have all that much to do with the crash of '08'? Yeah, sure! Your partisan horse crap's in the toilet, might as well flush.
All this, "We've moved on." stuff in an attempt to avoid talking about Bush's role in the mess isn't gonna' change the fact he and his cronies are fully responsible for what happened, you know. Be in denial all you like, it still doesn't change the fact that you all are accoutability dodging lying scum.
evil terror Muslims brother hood and one of their evil in the chair of Coptic ancient Egyptian and their evil group of muslims brotherhood after Muslim brotherhood faked the election and prevent Christians in three states to votes by threatening them of killing their families and destroy their homes. the high army handed in the chair to muslim brotherhood, evil and terror in power
This is lights out for Egypt.
Let's stop sending any more money to those Muslim Brother morons!
The Muslim Brotherhood is the reason there was a Revolution in Egypt. Just because they have the name Muslim, in from of their brotherhood.. does not mean they are terrible people.
Quit bashing their military, they will keep islamists in check, and that's a good thing. This way neither will have full power.
It's a great day for the people of Egypt.
Don't forget under Mubarak things were bad for a long time in Egypt. Certainly under the MB it can't get any worse. There was good reason the regime was ousted.
Johnny M-
The mass youth techie population being fed up with the status quo amonst other factors was the reason there was a revolution. A similar condition to what's occuring in all the Middle East, far from the influential reach of the MB.
What's the whoopee do about? We swore in an Islamic President back in 2008,and nothing catastrophic has happened since then....
Curb his powers is not enough.He must be tied to a curb like a dangerous and unpredictable Muslim finatic who wants to bring a jihad type Muslim police state to Egypt.Read his speeches,they leave no doubt that he is a nazi type fellow who will persecute Christians,Jews,and other who don´t follow his extreme sharia program..As for those who attack Obama .Go to a bashing Obama site,This is about Egypt.Or better go to a site that deal with absurd and ridiculous hallucinations about the President of the U.S..Stop mucking up Newsvine!!
muslim brotherhood terror evil in power
Obtained from«the egyptian news paper elwatan home» on the details of the secret contacts that took place in the last hours, between the Muslim Brotherhood and the military council, under the auspices of the United States, and the mediation of Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, before the announcement of winning the presidency, Dr. Mohamed Morsy, compared to the group assignment for the key ministries of the Council.Said Sarwat Kherpauy, the leading Muslim Brotherhood before, the hours that preceded the announcement of the result of elections, seen understandings between the group and «military» on the one hand, and between the Brotherhood and the American administration on the other hand, confirmed that U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton led the understandings, which included some of the promises of the forces A victory by armed marina, Oaida if not won, he said.He continued saying that Clinton had contacts with officials in the Council, in the last few days, to declare the result in favor of «anchorage», and got the Muslim Brotherhood candidate, already the most votes, but the Supreme Committee for the presidential elections, which he described as «a» of the military, as it was can accept some of the challenges his rival Ahmed Shafik, solved the result.The engineer Shater, first deputy Brotherhood leader, admitted to holding a meeting with the military council, to discuss the dissolution of parliament, sources said that he agreed with him on the success of the Marina, leave the selection for the key ministries of the military.Has seen the past 48 hours, the movements of Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, in the form of intensive contacts with the Muslim Brotherhood, also met, in a hurry and at his request, Field Marshal Hussein Tantawi, head of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, and the leaders of the Council, on Saturday evening, hours before the announcement the final result.This is consistent with what the site «Globus» Israel, yesterday, that the administration of Barack Obama pushed the military to respect the results of the presidential elections, and to enable anchorage of the receipt of power as the first civilian president elected, said newspaper «Guardian» British that the election outcome was known since last Tuesday, The Brotherhood met with leaders of «military», and demanded the return of Parliament, and the abolition of judicial officers, and the formation of the Committee on Constituent new constitution, but the response is rejected, sought refuge for the field, and heard all of the Marshal and the team Sami Annan's chief of staff, the point of view of ElBaradei, to the effect that the abolition of the Declaration to Supplement the need out of the current impasse, as a constitutional coup, reinforcing the powers of the military council, and reduce the powers of the president, and his proposal to re-election to a third individual in the parliament, but the Marshal, he replied: Egypt is a state law must be respected court rulings.For his part, stressed the official campaign Shafiq, the team received a call from the «senior official of the State», congratulate him on winning, start at the 8 the previous evening the result was announced, and told him to send a force of the Republican Guard to his home, but that power is turned back again in sudden. obtained from elbashar and elwatan egyptian newspaper
Must give Morsi the chance to show what he can do.
Either way, it becomes a Win/Win for the citizens of the USA.
Unfortunately, it isn't Morsi that's the issue. It's the power structure behind him and the elements that haven't changed and invariably will seek a way to put on only the appearance of change and/or improvements for Egypt. Those in power number far more than just Morsi, their puppet king before the Egyptian people. And such will not give up their positions or lifestyle, nor those directly below them that easily. This is what really needs to happen. The entire power structure of such regimes to become totally gridlocked and dysfunctional before any really beneficial changes can happen over there, or even here.
OK, got it.....Egypt will "abide by all of its international treaties and obligations"...including the Israel PEACE TREATY.
Wait a minute......"Morsi said he would stand with the Palestinian people":
Yeah, sure.....a "Win/Win for the citizens of the USA." What is this going to do for the "citizens of the USA" ????? How about the citizens of Israel ?
Yes, let's see what Morsi does in the way of Egyptian LAWS. Think the Egyptian people were suppressed before, just wait for Morsi to "unveil" his REAL agenda.
This is going to be a huge problem. Think there are conflicts going on in the ME now....you haven't seen anything yet.
Dude.. you can't just side with Israel an say screw the Palestinian people... they have rights too ya know
The insane Israel/Palestinian conflict has been going on so long people are numb to it. While those in power desperately need to maintain the two faced hatred of the other side, yet sense that somehow there will be peace later on, that never happens or those in power cannot maintain their positions of influence, based on fear. Much like what those large and in charge in the US do to our own people on a regular basis.
Ido-
If Morsi & Co. try to make matters worse with a more subversively suppressive agenda, there will be an even more fervent uprising of the Egyptian people. Think Tahrir Square can be stopped from ever happeneing again by more and bigger tanks and artillery? Think, man. Think!
"I swear by Almighty God that I will sincerely protect the republican system"
They're boned.
Indubitably!
Has NBCc turned against the Islamic people? It certainly seems like it with two stories this one and the one about the destruction in Timctoo. Why could they not have said "Muslim Brotherhood out loud?
Watch the slow and steady march to mullahs' Iran after the Shah of Iran's rule!
As seventh century Sunni Saudi extremists like Salaffi, MB are behind him, it will be worse than Iran in the long run!
Jonathan:
Israel is like Iran. Their orthodoxy control including Saria laws on marriages.
Egypt have a right to that if they choose. We have conservatives who want to deligitimaize gays and
we have catholic clergy that are hell bent lead by Pope to make life ogf gays as difficult as it can be.
If Egypt follows in these footsteps it will be sad but like many other western countries
Iran and the Moslem Brotherhood want modern economies. Say whatever you will about their religion, its pretty obvious that they're not trying to push technology backwards (God forbid!!!) in their respective countries.
What does gay have to do with this unless Morsi is gay, which I doubt?
Travis -- Wanting modern economies is one thing, acting upon it is something totally different. If they go the way of Iran, they'll will go backward instead of forward. One of Egypt's main industries is tourism and right now they are busily trying to destroy and loot ancient artifacts. The police force is totally ineffectual, guns and knives have become popular accessories, women are not safe on the street, Christians are being harrassed more than ever--in other words, they have a long way to go before they can even consider themselves a "modern, democratic economy." We'll have to see how this will unfold.
Iran hasn't gone backward. They might've advanced more slowly than they would've prefered, but the country is unquestionably more technologically and economically advanced now than it was in 1979. Without question - I mean, this isn't even debatable.
Muslims may fervently attempt to regain their former glory and control, but the plain fact is since about the mid 1800's Islam has been crumbling and losing it's influence it once had, even in deeply intrenched Muslim regions. The reality of the Baha'i Faith springing from Shi'a Islam in 1864 supports the otherwise obvious obsevation. The Baha'i Faith, not just a sect or branch of Islam, is a new world religion (even according to Islamic Law) that claims to be the fulfillment of Islam, and all world religions. The are not just exceedingly non-violent, they're more devoutly Christian-like than many Christians. Unless individuals begin looking into what really has happened to Islam for the last 200 years, the'll be incapable of recognizing that as usual, there's nothing to fear but fear itself.
Suzie-oh
It's taken well over 200 years to begin to get it right here, and we still aren't there yet. In fact many here argue it's worse than before.
....as quoted from the Swearing in ceremony:
- "Do you Solemnly Swear to Uphold the Anti-Israeli Agenda put forth by our
MurderousGlorious founder Muhammad?"- "Do you swear to unconditionally support terror efforts by our Al Qaeeda Brothers in Arms?"
- "Will you fight diligently to destroy the Evil Pig that is Israel?"
- "Will you continue the Islamic tradition of lying to Western idiots?"
Thanks for the re-write from your alternate universe, but most of us prefer the rational world.
Must be hell being allergic to yourself!
Byron & Realist-
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Islam is not a bad thing and I am sick of the media putting the word Islam in front of a person's name. Does the media do this with Christians and Jews? NO. Does the media refer to our president as "Christain Obama" or the many other Jewish political leaders as "Jewish whatever". NO we do not. The media needs to knock it off and practice true freedom of the press independant from any political pressure
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...try again
I'd love to see the media try to headline an article "Jew mayor of NY concerns other Nations and causes fear with Catholic population" Our media would never print something like this (even if it was true)
I could be way off, but I'm pretty sure they do that when Islam is their political stance- like "Republican, Who Ever"
or "Democrat, Who's That".
Anything licensed by the government is controlled by it.
That includes media- and any genuine freedom the press once enjoyed has been gone for decades.
This happened on our watch despite the warnings of many.
It was part of an ongoing trend called deregulation- which was nothing less than the concentration of a once diverse and competitive business environment- one where smaller entrepreneurs could flourish- into a weapon wielded by wealth against those who had made that wealth possible: the middle class.
This was perhaps most importantly expressed in the consolidation of sources of information and promoters of critical thought.
In the midst of the Nixon debacle, someone powerful woke to the fact that unpredictable civilian investigations could uncover information damaging to their interests- so the consolidation of thousands of independent media organizations down to a mere handful of easily controlled, centrally owned multimedia companies was not merely allowed, but encouraged.
Reported information was a gargantuan salad bar full of variety- but it's been reduced to a bowl of cottage cheese and a few seasonings.
No matter what spin any of the five major controllers of media chooses to impart,anyone watching closely will note that it remains the same- the occasional error excepted.
A few struggling indy media outfits aside, finding enough in the way of raw facts to arrive at your own conclusions is a thing of the past.
In fact...the only source of critical thought available is often disguised as comedy- still regarded as safe because few take it seriously.
What a world...but we let it happen. How's that working out?
MCAmom, you're the only one who is on!
rmann-
You're a dying breed.
FeO2-
They discovered there's no money in telling the truth or actual liberty and justice for all. Each side panders to it's base and it's virtually impossible to get the real facts on anything of significance anymore. They tell their target audience that which their itching ears want to hear, and nothing else. Sponsors and their dollars only fuel the conundrum. Just might Judgment Day not be too far off? Ponderous, man. Really ponderous...
US has big burden. We need to show the army that we deal with them through legitimacy of cilvilian administration and any attempt by army to undermine will be viewd with great concern. Euro zone must afffirm same thing.
GOD, Juvinile view. We must empower Egypt's independence and their new leader first by non-involvement and ONLY offer of assistance to help with their economy.
The Egyptian military has been almost directly funded by the US for a long time. And most of their high ranking officers were trained in American military schools. So in effect, that's a mutant version of our military over there already. How does the US withdraw involvement after that level of internal interfacing for so long?
As the bible says; "those who practice Islam will suffer the wrath of the media" (it must be in there someplace. perhaps revelations? )
It's Revelation not revelations.
Does Islam want to take over the world? I also wanna take over the world (but the cops and my x-wife won't let me). I think Islam is much more rational and stable than I
Some Muslims certainly want to take over the world. Just like some Christians also want to take over the world, and are willing to kill innocent people for it. Evil people are everywhere, but then, so are good people, Muslims and Christians.
"What are we going to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night...try to take over the world."
The hallmark of sapience is the tendency to change the world until it suits us. The ways in which those changes affect people around us- and whether or not those changes are agreeable to them as well- determines the viability of that change, and sometimes survival. We need to give this guy and the moderate group he represents a chance to show his true colors before we condemn him.
In some regards I think some Christians are even worse. Rather than being more obvious, they're sly and very underhanded about pulling strings. They may not outright kill you, but they effectively have done the same thing by making people lives unbearable for various reasons. And this is why they're worse. Talk about wolves in sheep's clothing? At least with Islam they're more up front with it.
....as quoted from the Swearing in ceremony:
- "Do you Solemnly Swear to Uphold the Anti-Israeli Agenda put forth by our
MurderousGlorious founder Muhammad?"- "Do you swear to unconditionally support terror efforts by our Al Qaeeda Brothers in Arms?"
- "Will you fight diligently to destroy the Evil Pig that is Israel?"
- "Will you continue the Islamic tradition of supporting the American Islamist Obama?"
Let's hope he keeps his word, but I doubt it. Mohamedans are not big on that
It all sounds good, only time will tell!
This guy isn't full of s()t he is made of it.
And that spells out for a lot of political figures everywhere. wonder why they all seem to be the same and use essentially the same tactics. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya'! :)
I still think that the debates, in the Egyptian Parliament, should be televised in English! What entertainment!
"MP Ahkmed, respectfully, we NEED liquor for the tourists!"
"MP Kalid, respectfully, OVER YOUR DEAD DRUNKEN ASS, Allah willing!"
While I sincerely hope, for the sake of the Egyptian people, that this man is on the level I just cannot help but get the feeling that one must carefully read between the lines on what he says.
Like all politicians, he's full of crap. Watch what he does, not what he says. It won't be long before the results are in, believe me. If I were a Coptic, I'd get the hell out of there now.
"...I promise to all Egyptian people this, that, and the other thing...."
KNOT!!!
This idiot says he sends a message of peace to the world out one corner of his mouth while swearing to free the terrorists in American jails out the other. Typical radical Islamist. He needs to remember that everything he says can be heard worldwide and not just in his own room.
Again, it's a matter of reading between the lines. Does he mean peace to the entire world? Or just peace solely to the Muslim world
mathuin and Ed,
I think Morsi is using carefully worded phrases. Just as he kept repeating himself regarding the rule of law. Rule of which law? Islamic law? Time will tell.
Global media transparency is something the old regime leaders are having serious problems with. When information control is everything to them, the internet and smart phones are ruining their little world.
i hope this guy is sincere and means what he says. the egyptian people , all those in the middle east and the rest of the world need him to be.
Let's hope the military can take the country back from this Islamist buffoon. These Islamist need a dictator to keep their violent behavior in check. When the British ruled this area there was peace civilization. Maybe this is what Muslim's need is to be controlled by Christians.
When the British ruled the region there was a lot of propaganda spin to make the appearance that things were fine in Egypt. The Middle East has been a hot bed of violence for a long time. And Christians are not much better. They're just more sly with it.
The will of the people? I think not... Why are some women making preparation to leave their own country? Because they will install Strick sharia law? The new government wants to be closer to Iran...and some one their said they want their capital to be Jeruseluem....dont know...here it comes...Egypt is no longer a friend of the US and Jeruseleum... more islamic b.s.
I recall a lot of leftists saying they were "leaving the country" when Bush got elected a second time. And then when Obama got elected a lot of rednecks said they were "leaving the country" too.
I don't know if flippant remarks from overdramatic arm-chair politicians is a good indicator of whats really going on.
What? We don't even have the will of the people here. It's a delusion. There are no or too few Americans in practice. No real, "We The People", etc. Stunned in disbelief? Well let's see, there are only Republicans, Democrats and Independents. And by damned, you better stick to your party line, or else! I'm taking it all out of context, am I? Really? Then why is our political system and entire government becoming more dysfunctional and outdated everyday? In a more primitive time politics-as-usual worked well enough, but not for much longer.
We cannot advance without new experiments in living, but no wise man tries every day what he has proved wrong the day before.
James Truslow Adams
Egyptian people and world leaders pls be vigilant!
I hope that the Egyptian people will begin marching on the long way to a better and peaceful life.
The march will not be a easy one .
I hope that they elected the Muslim brotherhood because they were the only well organized party and not because their radical Islamic ideology.
I hope that the Egyptian people will find the synergy between Islam, democracy, tradition and modern life, between wish of Islam to rule the world by force and peace for all people and equality between believes.
I hope that the Egyptian people will be wise and not repeat the Iranian mistake with the radical Islam or the German experience with the Nazi.
A few points to remember about the Muslim brotherhood ideology:
1:Kuweit Education Minister,Dr. Al-Ruba'I wrote in "A Bit of Shame in Al-Sharq Al-Awsat:" all of the religious terrorism today were in the Muslim Brotherhood's ideology"
2:Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader Sayyid Qutb disapproved the United States,and shaped the ideas of Islamists and Al Qaida.
3:Egyptian mentor of bin Laden and member of al-Qaeda was Ayman Zawahiri member of Muslim brotherhood
4:USA court documents on the Texas- Holy Land Foundation-Muslim Brotherhood global mission:“The work in America is Jihad,eliminating,destroying Western civilization from within
5:Muslim Brotherhood member in Kuwait,Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was the mastermind of the 9/11 attack
6:Egypt Muslim brotherhood leaders declared that Ben Laden was a Muslim martyr
7:The leader of al-Qaeda ,Ayman Muhammad Rabī al-Zawāhirī, is an Egyptian influenced by the ideology of Muslim Brotherhood
8:Muslim brotherhood leader speech in Cairo broadcasted by BBC, said :
*Hitler didn’t finish the job-The Muslims will finish the Job*
Enigma:
Is the Hindu reincarnation happening just now?
Is Obama the reincarnation of Chamberlin
The people voted. A dude got elected. Some happy and some unhappy. Just sounds like an Americian thing. Now let's get ready for football season.
"Play ball!" It's still baseball season.
NEW NUT JOB LEADS COUNTRY Having a brainwashed phychopath rule Egypt is not a win for the world or the USA. People of the world and especially Europe have to realize these murderous lunatics intend on taking over the planet with their insane beliefs as they worship their stupid imaginary God. There will NEVER be peace as long as the muslim religion exists, plain and simple.
So what should we do - invade every country that has a sizable Islamic population and convert them all the Christianity? Might be kind of difficult...
Oh-No-Bam-o energetically supported the Arab 'Spring' (which was a Muslim Brotherhood takeover) and mis-represented it as an 'Uprising of Democracy'. He is certainly deseitful but not stupid. he knew these guys were taking over and used his manipulation of the Americaan Media to support it, HOWEVER, when the TRUE fighters fro democracy protested in IRAN, he hid UNDER A ROCK. HIS TRUE INTENTIONS AND MANIPULATIONS ARE BEING CONTINUOUSLY REVEALED.
So Obama nutures an uprising in a few Moslem countries that have the combined GDP of Rhode Island and this is his grand scheme for taking over the planet and converting everyone to Islam? Seems fairly unlikely I think...
TRAVIS....
You said it...O-WTF-BAM-O DID nurture the Muslim Brotherhood takeover in Egypt, but HID UNDER A ROCK when the legitimate Freedom Fighters were being massacred in Iran earlier in his pathetic presidency. Talk about a COMPLETE FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER.. or actually a preferred plan of action?
It's comical how RDD and others think there's this massive Muslim conspiracy to take over the entire world. And Obama is their secret Messiah to help deliver Sharia Law to American shores. BTW: The Arab Spring involves far more than the MB. They don't own nor did they initiate what's occured in the past two years, give or take. Of course such a radical shift in Egypt was not going to be successful so quickly. Many refuse to give up their old ways and lifestyle connections for obvious reasons. Relax and take a load off.
Exactly, the Moslem Brotherhood was just a well organized force that was present when the Old Regime collapsed. Same as in Russia - the Bolsheviks didn't initiate the collapse of the Tsarist government, they were just a group that was well organized and the most equipped to take up the reigns. Same as when the monarchy collapsed in France, same in England, same in China...one could go on.