I have a pretty hard mindset to 9/11 but this was wrong to lock this man up without charges. I disagree with the Beerman that "anyway, any shape, or any form mentality. He does seem to have a split personality writing a totaly different view in post #2??

They should have a trial and have evidence against them presented in a timely manner if we truely want to police the world for "Democracy".

There seems to be a lot left out here, for example why was he in the location he was in when he got detained? There is nothing here that says he is innocent, just that no charges were filed, those are two different things. Most of us realize there are thousands of people release without charges but that does not make them innocent.

Brian - He was not found innocent - he was never charged. There is a difference. Begg does focus the question of how this country is treating the cases of terrorists. This would be clearer if the terrorists would have been determined POWs. They could then be legally held indefinitely, as long as the Geneva Conventions are observed.

What this article does not tell us is how was Begg arrested? Was he captured in Afghanistan with an AK in his hands? Or was he picked up in the street just strolling along, minding his own business? Can someone fill us in?

... and one cannot judge whether or not the guy is lying because one doesn't actually know anything about his life. Honestly IF he was Al Qaida they didn't torture him enough ... but if he wasn't then he shouldn't have been in prison to start with. Being "soft-spoken" and "gentle-mannered" doesn't mean anything at all. Remember at least one of the hijackers was an american family's friend? he was even at their wedding, they were very surprised when they learned the news.

Anna-

but if he wasn't then he shouldn't have been in prison to start with.

Anna,

I don't know anything about this guy. That said one of the problems we had with prisoners from Afghanistan was many were turned over to us by people settling old scores. Obviously not all but quite a few and in our haste to get useable intel we took the Northern Front people seriously. In hind sight we shouldn't have.

Mr. Begg tells us about the horrors he faced, but he was a suspect...and the government attempted to force info out of him to help save others. We are not so sure he is really innocent. He can say anything now. This war against terrorism is sloppy, murky and certainly not precise. I just think of all those trapped in the WTC, those US troops taken prisoner and tortured in Iraq. Remember those horrible beheadings... No one talks about that much any more. In any case, Mr. Begg has his life back. I don't want him in our country. I am glad he will be kept out.

I agree that one should not judge. Expecially when we only hear one side. What we did not hear in this interveiw was how he ended up being in Gotmo.

Held for three years and never charged. Nice....

Really who cares ! this guy is now making money SELLING books, anything he says has to be suspect, by embleshing a story he heard or making his experence worse than it was. for a torture victum he sure looks good you can hardly see any scars from his torture and if he is so AFRAID why is he given interviews and being out in public, when he should be hiding afraid he might be picked-up at any moment...I call B.S. on this whole story just msnbc trying to sell the public on how bad the U.S. is and yet they stay here and make millions !!!!

heres your mr "i'm innocent and the usa is a great satan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moazzam_Begg

While Begg admits spending time at two Islamic militant training camps in Afghanistan, supporting militant Muslim fighters, buying a rifle and a handgun, that he "thought about" taking up arms in Chechnya, and being an acquaintance of people linked to terrorism (most notably, Khalil al-Deek, Dhiren Barot, and Shahid Akram Butt), he denies the remainder of the U.S.'s allegations.

bfitz, can you PROVE, with evidence, that Beggs was a terrorism conspirator? Just being of Pakistani origin does not make him a criminal. Our form of justice is supposed to presume innocent until proven guilty. He was obviously never proven guilty. So why should his carcass be left to the ants on the battlefield? What's your justification for that?

He admitted spending time at two Islamic training camps in Afghanistan, supporting militant Muslim fighters, buying a rifle and a handgun, that he "thought about" taking up arms in Chechnya, and being an acquaintance of people linked to terrorism (most notably, Khalil al-Deek, Dhiren Barot, and Shahid Akram Butt) but denies the remainder of the U.S.'s allegations."

That sounds like a terrorist to me. It sounds like someone who is an enemy combatant and needed to be detained. And I"m a liberal.

There are two basic problems with most of the detainees in Guantanamo:

1) They were never actually willing enemy combatants. Most were people who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most were "foreign fighters" and were "sold" to the CIA for an average of just a little over $5k each. They turned out to be foreign, but have been sent to madrassas in the tribal areas of Pakistan because that was considered to be the most conservative area for Islamic studies. If Dad sent you, you went. But when these people got to the tribal areas they found that the people discriminated heavily against forengners. And their definition of foreigner could be people from the next valley. So, when the CIA came along they were more than happy to sell them to the CIA for cash. These included Saudis, Libyans, Egyptians, Tunisians, Morroccans, etc. But sometimes it included non-Urdu speakers in an Urdy area or non-Pashtun speakers in a Pastun area. The most egregious example was the Uighurs. These are Muslims from Western China whose roots bo back well before Marco Polo. The Uighurs had received training in al-Quaeda and Taliban training camps. Their aim was to take this training back to the mopuntains of their homeland and fight the Chinese government for autonomy (not independence.) The 22 Uighurs were turned over to the CIA. They were tortured and brutalized even though the CIA knew well that they had exactly zero interest in fighting the Americans of the Afghan government. Finally the CIA realized that these people were never any threat and decided to release them all. But by this time other governments becan to fear that innocent people tortued by the CIA might have formed serious grudges towards their former captors and their former captors' country. Now the delimna thickened --- the Chinese government wanted all 22 extradicted so they could be executed for treason. None of the 22 wanted to be released to China. Five were allowed to receive political asylum from Albania in order to avoid violating a writ of habeus corpus. Most believe that in order to secure Chinese acquiescence for the invasion of Iraq that all Uighurs would be held indefinitely without trial. The 17 remaining Uighurs are held in solitary confinment each Uighur separated from the next by several intervening cells with Arab-speakers. Just intentional cruelty. Every interrogator has documented the same conslusions that "the Uyghurs were not enemies, had not supported the Taliban, and had not engaged in hostilities." This whole thing is a travesty that Republicans desparately want kept out of the U.S. courts because the vast majority opf them not only would be freed immediately, but would be given the legal right to sue both individuals and organizations for both criminal and civil crimes. The first WTC bombers were tried in US courts and found guilty and are still in prison (there is no parole in the federal system) for life. But if these guys come to court, it will be a huge embarassment, especially to those in the Bush/Cheney administration who created the mess.

2) No usable intelligence is EVER obtained by torture. Every intelligence analyst is taught this. The problem is that a detainee being tortured will tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear in order to make the torture stop. They are extremely good at figuring out what an interrogator wants to hear. (It's called the Clever Hans Effect for those interested in the psychology.) It was not a coincidence, for example, that the CIA names their supposed source for WMD in Iraq "Curveball." I was an intelligence analyst for over ten years and I can tell you that the only thing that information obtained through torture is good for is to keep the coffee stains of the bottom of your wastebasket. HUMINT (HUMan source INTelligence) is so unreliable that it always required confirmation. But if you have the confirmation available, there is no need to torture. Catch-22 of zero sum game, call it what you will. I can remember at least one occasion when I saw an Intelligence Report (IR) that was obtained through torture of a catured Viet Cong. The CIA agent conducted his "interrogation" through ARVN soldiers and was "no longer available for interview" meaning that he had been killed during the torture. But the CIA cowboy sent the report of it to every intelligence group in the military and civilian intelligence business. His momentout information: that the North Vietnamese were going to build a military base on the moon so they could shoot down Spooky gunships at night. The CIA has always been like that. As an analyst I was never allowed to discuss current intelligence with any CIA officer because of the risk of compromise. In ten years I never saw evidence of any analytical capability in the CIA and only saw useful intelligence from the CIA handling of paid informents (such as Cuirveball) and turncoats (such as several NKVD station chiefs.)

This is why the FBI walked out on Gitmo interrogations. They knew that torture is not only not a good way to get intelligence, but is also likely to make legitimate interrogation methods useless. An an old intelligence guy I know exactly how to get someone to tell me all he knows without using torture or coercion of any kind --- as long as the person will talk to me. There really are well-known intelligence methods that do not harm the individual at all, but get everything a person knows out of them.

But the time has come to quit whining. Most of the captives in Gitmo are innocent of any crimes, are being held indefinitely without any chance of appeal or trial. The government is simply too afraid to allow these prisoners to testify in open court. There are already scores of international warrants out for not just Bush Jr., Cheney, Rumsfeld and other officials, but scores of CIA agents as well. The CIA actually buys insurance for its agents once warrants are issued so they can provide fopr their families while they are in prison.

@ULDog -

No one is "found" innocent. Everyone IS innocent until proven guilty.

The very idea that one must be proven innocent is a violation of reason (argumentum ad ignorantiam), a violation of the most basic tradition of American Criminal Law, and a violation of the basic ideals of an advanced civilization.

3 years without being charged. I d*mn sure would have been their enemy when I got out. That is not something you can forgive.

It's wonderful to have someone who calls himself "I hate Liberals" give us his opinion on anything--as if we'd expect something non-biased. The fact that he chose that name tells me he wants to be recognized as a hateful person (he did say "hate") who will judge people not by their individual qualities, but by some self-created political formula that allows him to be judge, jury, and executioner without anymore evidence than his biased opinion (which, of course, is based on HIS formula). It must be nice to be so self-assured that you'll completely write off another human being merely because they disagree with you. Again, another poster who makes the story about themselves.

Excellent link to that wiki page!

Sickandtired,

I read your link and he is a terrorist. What I found is:

While Begg admits spending time at two Islamic militant training camps in Afghanistan, supporting militant Muslim fighters. Begg became a member of the Lynx Gang, a Birmingham street gang.He said "we did things that no good Muslim should," but that he rarely joined the fights.

A search of his home by anti-terrorist police reportedly found night vision goggles, a bulletproof vest, and "extremist Islamic literature". His family said that he was collecting the items as a hobby.Begg worked with Deek to create a CD-ROM of a terrorist manual, Encyclopedia of Jihad, which Deek gave to two Palestinians plotting with Zubaydah to bomb Jordanian tourist sites.
He has 12 links (friends) who were known terrorists.

Barot wrote about himself in a book he published under the alias Esa Al Hindi that he had undergone terrorist training in Pakistan and Afghanistan, joined the insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir against India, and was later referred to as bin Laden's "UK General".

In the book Barot wrote in the book: "Terror works, and that is why the believers are commanded to enforce it by Allah." The book was used as evidence against Barot when he was later tried and convicted of planning a "dirty bomb" attack on London.

And he claims innocence; Big B.S.

While some policies come into being to aid or protect Americans they CAN and sometimes ARE abused. To hold people more than a year with no way to build a case is very wrong. If they cannot be charged they need to be let go. Torturing prisoners goes against everything America stands for and should NEVER be used.

AZpartsGuy...

Wow...typical comment comming from an AZ rightie...

The brown guys always guilty till proven innocent huh???

The guy does not have protection under OUR Constitution. They released him, probably because of the difficulty to prosecute him. Our government does not have to convict some terrorist to bar him from the US. Hell we don't even have to prove we were born in the US or to US parents to become president. Thanks MSDNC, again for trying your best to tarnish anything American.

Who g a b r a what this terrorist scum thinks about the USA or its people? Good reporting with anecdotal BS MSNBC...

Brian said:

What I cannot understand is his exclusion from being able to visit the US. The only reason I can possibly believe is that individuals in the US government would rather that he not tell his story to the citizens of the US. After all, he was found to be innocent of any crimes.

He was never charged-it's a little different than being found innocent. But among the things he was allegedly under suspicion for was being an acquaintance of a known terrorist. This is enough to earn him a lifetime ban.

It's cases like this that as the basis for the controversial sections of the NDAA for FY2012. In it, it grants the US military the authority to detain indefinitely any persons suspected of advocating in or encouraging/supporting terrorism or any act which runs counter to the US or any of its allies interests. You do not need to have a trial, you do not need to charge them with anything, suspicion and an interrogation are the only prerequisites to detention until the War On Terror is over.

Originally the wording for the sections (Written by Senator John McCain and Joe Lieberman) said this applied to US citizens too, but the President refused to sign it because indefinite detention of US citizens is unconstitutional, so they changed it to 'discretionary detention' for domestic terrorists. But it's also been the driving force behind the new Enemy Expatriation Act that will strip US citizenship from anyone suspected of terrorism (not convicted) and subject them to the interrogation and indefinite detention of US military.

ULDog said:

What this article does not tell us is how was Begg arrested? Was he captured in Afghanistan with an AK in his hands? Or was he picked up in the street just strolling along, minding his own business? Can someone fill us in?

The Pakistani government arrested and turned him over to US forces. As we now know that Bin Laden was hiding in Pakistan, one who questions may well ask whether this man was indeed 'guilty' of what the Pakistani government said he was or if the Pakistani government was trying to make it appear as if they were cooperating so that we wold not suspect Bin Laden was hiding in their country.

IHateLiberals said:

There is such a thing as guilt through association and if he doesn't want to be considered a terrorist then don't associate.

SO you're okay with the FBI watching the mosques that the 9-11 hijackers went to, putting people who attend that mosque on the no-fly list because one of the attendees was a terrorist. Would you be similarly OK if they were watching the church that Timothy McVeigh went to, putting all of those people on the no-fly list?

Dasvet -

Everyone's right's are protected under the US Constitution. The Constitution limits the power of government regarding it's actions toward individuals - it does not say Americans are special and have rights and no one else does.

How can someone have such a completely backward understanding of the most basic American ideals?

Many Americans are VERY lucky to be considered citizens, as American law recognizes those born in the US or born abroad to American parents, as citizens - but a lot of citizens have such an incredibly backward understanding of basic American ideals that they certainly wouldn't be able to pass a citizenship test.

If I was interrogated naked I would follow every answer with, "Am I getting a handy now? I've been a good boy."

I'm going to read his book.

This guy was in the wrong place doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. He claims that everything was done by either accident or unlucky coincidence. So he was incarcerated as well by accident and coincidence. One should learn from that to avoid accidents and coincidences. Especially if you have something better to do someplace else at the time.

For Zen, You are talking about ideals, I am talking about the Constitution. You seem to believe that anyone that has a desire to get here has the same legal rights as an American citizen. If that is true, why in the hell did Jefferson, and all those signers of the Constitution bother to even write the Constitution? Open all borders, because Zen believes they are unnecessary.

Dasvet -

My comment had nothing to do with opening borders, it had to do with the fact that you haven't the most basic understanding of the Constitution.

BTW - Jefferson didn't sign the Constitution, nor did he participate in the Constitutional Convention - he lived in Paris at that time.

In light of my first comment to you, I have to wonder if this isn't some kind of performance art, Dasvet - talk about self-parody!

It's cases like this that as the basis for the controversial sections of the NDAA for FY2012. In it, it grants the US military the authority to detain indefinitely any persons suspected of advocating in or encouraging/supporting terrorism or any act which runs counter to the US or any of its allies interests. You do not need to have a trial, you do not need to charge them with anything, suspicion and an interrogation are the only prerequisites to detention until the War On Terror is over.

The bolded section of your comment is EXACTLY what has many people worried Amanda. Theoretically, this means they could brand YOU and ME a terrorist just by suspicion. That's not how the American justice system I remember has worked. Usually, there must be a trial, during which both sides are allowed to present evidence in favor of, or contrary to, the allegations. Now it seems the US Government has thrown away the Constitution and the Fourth Geneva Convention (which it signed in good faith back in 1949, by the way) because it doesn't suit their purposes. Seems rather hypocritical to me. Shouldn't we be setting an example for the treatment of Human beings, since we're all so eager to point fingers at people like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il?

The time may come when Americans will be picked up from any city in the world and be tortured, imprisoned and killed. Then the world will see and hear the American reaction to such injustices. The bully never thinks that his reign of terror will end, but it always ends and then things change.

There are more than a few posts here to the effect that this man is not innocent, simply that he was not charged. Considering the latitude given the prosecutorial process in such instances, including the fact that torture was (and is) a part of the process, then the government's failure to produce evidence sufficient to try or even continue to hold this man should be viewed as vindication. However, it's abundantly clear that there are those who will simply grasp at any excuse to smear and malign anyone, no matter how precariously connected to charges of terrorism, out of a misplaced sense of patriotism and (sorry, but there's no way to candy-coat this) simple ignorance. As for myself, I'm deeply ashamed that the government which claims to represent me is behind such actions, and I will plainly state that this entire witch hunt has been detrimental to the good of our country, to the American people, and to our standing in the world.

Flame away, people.....

He is obviously lying. As we know, Guatanamo is actually more of a resort area with gyms, libraries, tennis and squash courts. Anyone who has listened to the Bush and Obama administrations know that this is so.

As far as "not being innocent" goes, well, the legal definition of "innocent" also includes "the prosecuting attorney didn't charge him."

My Dad was in the US Navy during World War II, serving on a transport ship..on two occasions they had to take on a load of Japanese prisoners-of War for transfer to a central island base....and on both those trips he witnessed US Marines herding hundreds of unarmed Japanese prisoners of War up onto the deck, where they pushed them into the ocean, by the hundreds.....

David Wellman, excellent post ! Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm still waiting to hear anything that sounds close to torture !!! This is a war , any way you look at it and being held any amount of time during that war is fine and dandy with most of the American people and we are the only ones that count !!!!

Oh, how wrong you are, on so many levels Johnny.

It's common sense. Why would we detain and interrogate someone for 3 years unless we had intelligence/evidence that he was in some way connected to terrorist organizations connected with 9/11, and/or could provide us with information that would aid us in our hunt for those responsible for or connected to 9/11? Why would we waste 3 years with this guy unless we believed he could help us? We wouldn't.

No BeerBrian, what you have is faith on your government. Common sense would be that if we had evidence of his wrongdoing, we would not have let him go, hell we might have even tried on some charges. You dig, BeerBrian?

"Why would we" isn't good enough. By that standard, why would they fly planes into our buildings? They wouldn't do it without a good reason, so they must have had one.

Perhaps he was guilty of nothing. Perhaps he was just found to be connected to those who were guilty, and we thought that we could gain valuable information from him that would help us take down those individuals. If he was assoicated with them, he was guilty by association, and was useful to our cause. Ya dig, Jeff?

@Angry

It doesn't matter why they flew planes into our building. No reason could explain killing that many innocent people. However, if we had a reason to detain and interrogate this person that might bring those murderers to justice, any reason is good enough. Get it?

No. Still not good enough.

I believe all of us have heard of examples of the police looking for additional evidence to prove a particular suspect's guilt even in light of evidence to the contrary. In fact there are numerous examples of suppression of evidence in the efforts to have a given suspect found guilty. It isn't hard to see that as some people in law enforcement holding onto an opinion of guilt because of personal belief / prejudice regarding the suspect - an opinion that would be seen as absolutely invalid by an impartial third party. Similarly, it isn't hard to see this kind of behavior being extended to the intelligence community in the case of a terrorism suspect. Human psychology is not inherently logical - quite the contrary. It does not surprise me in the least that their might have been people subjected to extraordinary rendition that were completely innocent. That is the very reason that denying constitutional due-process to terrorism suspects is problematic - we are assuming guilt before innocence AND we don't admit when we've made a mistake - doubling the error.

BeerBrian,

The government made a lot of broad and sweeping apprehensions in light of 911, some more justified than others. Our gov didn't necessarily have to have any concrete evidence against him, just mere suspicion, which is probably why they held him for three years, so they could get some concrete evidence.

The problem with your second argument is that we need concrete intelligence against people before apprehending them. If they're innocent, then an innocent person's life has been ruined. You wouldn't like that if the police did that to you.

BeerBrian,

Your reasoning is not good enough. Grow up.

BeerBrian

While I feel it is wrong to hold someone in prison without legal council or without charges being brought, I seriously doubt that this guy was completely innocent.

Innocent of what? He wasn't charged with anything.

I tend to agree with BeerBrian. They probably had some reason to detain him. Yes, the patriot act made it possible to disappear people for absolutely no reason at all, but how many Muslims openly denounce and encourage the overthrow of the American government. Millions? Tens of millions? Hundreds? But they pick up him. They had something on him or they wouldn't have bothered. It's not about having faith in my government (I have none). It's about knowing that people far smarter than myself don't bother with small fries.

Brian, it is much easier to prove that the real terrorist is the US government and not this guy. If you think we are attacked for no reason, you are a sleep.

It's common sense. Why would we detain and interrogate someone for 3 years unless we had intelligence/evidence that he was in some way connected to terrorist organizations connected with 9/11, and/or could provide us with information that would aid us in our hunt for those responsible for or connected to 9/11? Why would we waste 3 years with this guy unless we believed he could help us? We wouldn't.

Why would the government execute a 14 year old semi-literate child based on a confession coerced by ice cream? Because someone with enough ambition or desire for revenge doesn't care who they hurt to get what they want. Our government is not full of church ladies. It's full of men who desire power. Pull the wool off from over your eyes. We've kept people in prison for far longer than 3 years based on lies.

BeerBrian said:

Before I feel sorry for him, I would like to see what evidence the US had against him. Why was he even there? I'm not saying the guy is guilty, or isn't even a victim of bad intelligence, but I just can't see someone being held that long without some sort of evidence that he had some connection to 9/11, Al-Queda, or the Taliban.

According to various news sources, he allegedly spent time while younger at a militant training camp, bought a rifle and a handgun, and 'thought about' going to fight in Chechnya. He was a known 'acquaintance' of several people known to be terrorists, but insists he had no close ties with them and had never participated or advocated 'terrorist' actions against the US. The Pakistani people originally took him into custody then handed him over to the US. The Pentagon has denied that forcible physical coercion was used, but strenuously protested against his being released in January 2005 without ever having been charged. He was allowed to return to the UK, but he is persona non grata on US shores for life.

why would they fly planes into our buildings? They wouldn't do it without a good reason, so they must have had one.

A few...Patriot Act...Homeland Security among others.

yo angry guy - ever heard of google? are you one of the lefties that has to have msnbc spoon feed them all their news?

@Angry

It doesn't matter why they flew planes into our building. No reason could explain killing that many innocent people. However, if we had a reason to detain and interrogate this person that might bring those murderers to justice, any reason is good enough. Get it?

What reason did we have to kill 120,000+ Iraqis? Most of them civilians. I suppose they should use any and all means necessary to bring the perpetrators of that crime to justice.

Most of these detainees were "sold" to the CIA by Pashtun and Urdu tribesmen for an average of a little over $5,000. The detainees otained in this way were not enemy combatants, were not "captured" on a battlefield. They were actually detained in a way that easily fits the legal interpretation of "white slavery" laws that were enacted to stop Arab slave traders in the 1870's. They human beings who were bought and then brought to this country, usually via third-party countries, and held without charge, with trial, and without basis for denial of nabeus corpus.

Imagine if a traffic cop stopped you and suddenly you found yourself in solitary confinement, being tortured and moved secretly from country to country without anypone even telliong you what you are charged with or what you might do to end the imprisonment. You would not be allowed to talk to legal counsel, family members, or even to have books to read or talk to other prisoners. Not a very human way to treat people who are innocent to start with.

This "assumption" they must have done something wrong belies the fact that the authorities in Gitmo will never allow these detainees to talk in open court because of what they fear they would say. Routinely, international norms of legal behavior have fallen by the wayside, and the captors at Guantanamo are in a position little better than the Germans and their concentration camps. The old rule is that you never find the moral high ground if you only look in swamps.

BeerBrian - While I feel it is wrong to hold someone in prison without legal council or without charges being brought, I seriously doubt that this guy was completely innocent.

Right.....so let's torture him because he might know something or might have done something somewhere sometime. And if he turns out to know nothing it was all just good fun, eh?

georgecon, it is my fervent desire that you find a country that you can love and be proud of some day. For you, it does not appear that the United States fits the bill.

I am sad for you if that is the case, but I am sure that there are countries where you would be much happier. France comes to mind rather quickly.

I wish you well.

Sounds like James Lee doesn't like hearing any criticism of the US, even when that criticism is fully warranted.

Sounds like skrekk, as usual, prefers a society where anything goes, no God, no country, no laws, just a free-for-all disintergration into chaos. Same old, same old.

tiredofthelunacy - Sounds like skrekk, as usual, prefers a society where anything goes, no God, no country, no laws

Actually I'd much prefer that we enforce our criminal statutes against torture. It sounds like you're really the one who opposes the rule of law.

But you're quite right about the "no god" part of your comment. Your imaginary friend has nothing to do with our laws, and nothing to do with this issue.

James Lee has a fear of freedom, whether conscious or sub-conscious.

As Paulo Friere wrote, he is camouflaging his fear by presenting himself as a defender of freedom. He is giving his doubts and misgivings an air of profound sobriety, as a befitting custodian for freedom. But he confuses freedom with the maintenance of the status quo, so that if conversation takes place, or action is taken against the oppressive elements of society, it threatens to place that status quo in question, and thereby seems to constitute a threat to freedom itself.

Skrekk and Skunk,

My apology for being late with a response.

I defend and have defended georgecon's right to express his views, whatever they may be and I was serious when I wished him well. I was likewise serious when I hoped he could find a country that he liked as he seemed to be miserable living in this one. I doubt this country will change just to appease him and I doubt that he can ever be happy here.

I mean no malice toward george, just making an observation. And by the way, Skunk, Paulo Friere appears to be an elitist idiot.

Hate begets hate and you seem to have plenty of it.

At least he isn't supporting our enemies like the lovers you side with.

"His opinion of me and my country is worth nothing to me. His kind are trying to destroy our freedoms and make us all slaves to the Islam religion. I would feel no remorse if someone put his lights out for good.

Too bad we have a president that kisses Muslim butt to appease them no matter what the situation."

@Steven100 Its ignorance like yours that causes many of the problems we see in society today. Do you even know what the Muslim religion entails? Obviously not. I'm not Muslim in fact I'm atheist but aren't we supposed to be a country of freedoms. One of which is the freedom of religion. And what happened to innocent until proven guilty? You don't know the whole story, so who are you to judge this man? In Christianity isn't it God's place to judge not the individuals. I bet your one of those guys who thinks that health insurance shouldn't cover women's birth control either. Such bigotry. Our country caused the problem with how many view us. We should worry about our own problems and stay out of others business. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

"Innocent until proven guilty" applies to a trial, not a war.

Define "HIS KIND". I am a disabled vet and my kind think your kind are a bunch of wackadoodles. Hate for the sake of hate is pointless and ignorant. What a waste

Amen Brother; If this is torture to him and I quess it is in some form, he lived to tell about it. The Americans held by the Iranians and the Iraquies and all the other country's our men have fought against could give him a lesson in what torture really is. This is better than in some prisons in the world.

Guys like Steven have complexes. They feel small, stupid, and insignificant, so they have to go around being racist, hateful @!$%#s to make themselves feel powerful and better than others. They're sad human beings we have to live with as a society unforgettably. They also have a warped, delusional reality they live in, where Obama isn't still carrying out secret wars, secret bombings, and most likely, secret extradition. Sad, sad people, let them wallow in their own hate and misery for the rest of their lives, it's their soul...

Cassandra,

The article is about his imprisonment in Gitmo.....not the war.

Unfortunately, it is easier for simple minded people to shout down anyone with an opposing view than to look at themselves and see if the criticism is valid. In this case a man was taken from a sovereign nation, imprisoned in military detention facilities for 3+ years, and then released, of course he has disdain for this ridiculous usurpation of human rights. Meanwhile in podunk hillbillyville, USA this good ole boy thinks this is no big deal, because he has not been wrongfully imprisoned and lost three years of his life. Were he to be imprisoned for his role in a local militia unit, he would cry foul and want people to come to his defense against the tyrannical government that locked him up. For my dumbass redneck friend, here is a little prose written by a man in the 3rd Reich upon realizing the error of his thinking, which was very similar to yours;

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I'm with Steven. I don't really care how other people see us. Heck, they don't even get us. But that's where our opinions part company.

Steven100, Bravo!!!

9/11 was one despicable incident, the details of which are still unclear to the public. How many innocent people and villages have been droned. More than one. They must feel 1000x what we feel about the Towers for their own innocent relatives, women and children.

To keep a man for years with "rendition" WITHOUT a charge is truely criminal. Americas handling of all this is, with Bush, Cheney etc And Obama is unacceptable. We are doing the Unacceptable. It must be stopped or it will cause more trouble than can ever be imagined. America put itself in the wrong...eligible to be tried for War Crimes and found guilty. I am just one one citizen and I know we are wrong but I have no political power, no Military, no way to say STOP. I write, I talk but what good does it do? Change those policies! But they just get worse..NDAA. I don't want to be forced to accept the Unacceptable.

Steven100,

Quit being so melodramatic. They don't want to convert us to Islam or make us slaves. Any Muslim that has said so is a social-path. Most likely they just want the US gov to stop intervening in Middle Eastern affairs.

Steven100, the biggest threat to our freedom is the US Government via the Patriot Act, the NDAA, Dept of Homeland Security and TSA. The FAA will soon be part of this when they open our airspace to to untold numbers of UAV flights. The NSA intercepts all emails, phone calls, Skype interactions and Govt spooks regularly troll forums such as this. They have cameras all over the place. The government isn't concerned with your safety or mine or anyone else's. They are only concerned with their own survival and have succeeded in building, under the guise of making America safe, an infrastructure to insure their own continued existence. If you think Muslims are a greater threat you are an idiot. Radical Islam is at worst an annoyance and at best a scapegoat for creating and maintaining a police state. I don't know whose kool aid you've been drinking but it has turned your mind into dog $hit

i dont care what this cretin thinks. he is lucky he didnt get a drone missle up his muzlim a$$

What proof do we have that this guy is telling the truth? He may be lying about all this supposed mistreatment. I would want someone to see the truth and hear both sides before passing judgement. How does the press get away with releasing this stuff without providing the other side?

Steven and Jeff and all VETS that served in the military I say BRAVO....I salute the POW and all injured ,you are true Americans.And with your comments you are defending the freedom of all .including the once that are LOST ...not trusting their own but better side with terrorists ,I suggest Go LIVE IN TALIBAN COMPOUND see the true government .....I'm ashamed of some commenting here Who cares for this guys torture I'm sure if he told the truth he would not last 3 years in detention and he wasn't supporting British government ....but supporting Taliban with donations .You all forgot about those died in the 9/11 INFERNO.....living family's behind in pain, SHAME SHAME on you .

Shookum Jim

Laughing so hard I can't type. Awesome. Glad to see there's someone else here who sees what's going on. People are so distracted by ridiculous issues that they don't see the big picture. They argue and fight about their beliefs without seeing the chains those beliefs impose on them. Wake up, people!! It's a system of control, nothing more.

rgmoon - What proof do we have that this guy is telling the truth?

There is the out-of-court settlement the British government paid to him for their complicity in his abduction and torture. Unlike the US, at least the British had the courage to accept responsibility for their wrongdoing, even though most of the real crimes against Moazzam Begg were committed by Americans.

Many specific aspects of his story have been confirmed, like the two people he saw beaten to death at Bagram....which resulted in a murder investigation by the US army. The International Red Cross was also able to confirm key aspects of his story in their report on torture, which was leaked to the press.

Let's forget all about 9-11. Let's just turn all the poor mistreated little terrorists out. Let's be the pansy-azz the rest of the world thinks us to be, sit on our duffs, twiddle our thumbs and wait for the next attack. Maybe if we do that, all the bad people in the world will take our cue and start sending roses instead of bombs. Let's just all be stupid.

Steven100 - how would that be substantially different from America where 75% of the population are slaves to the Christian religion? The only difference in the religions is that they were born in the Middle East and you were born in the West. An accident of birth, you might say.

Those who practice ANY religion are slaves. Think about it. These are the basic laws of MOST religions:

1. You HAVE to think a certain way. If you don't think that way, you are a bad person, and you will go to Hell.

2. If you drink, take drugs, engage in sex without marriage, do not marry in a church, or engage in same-sex intercourse, you are a bad person, and you will go to Hell.

3. If you don't have money, you are not worthy of us, or the help of our God.

I think George Carlin put it best when he said the following:

"The invisible man has a special list of 10 things He does not want you to do. And if you do ANY of those 10 things, He has a special place full of fire and suffering and burning and torture, where He will send you to live and choke and scream and cry forever and ever until the end of time...

....But He loves you!"

tiredofthelunacy, first of all, when a country has 700+ military bases outside of their country, AND spends over a $ Trillion annually on military, I doubt the rest of the world views the US as pansies.

Secondly, I do know the majority of the rest of the world disdains America, due to our federal government's domestic and foreign policies. There was a time when most immigrants were dying to come here to make a better life. Now the only immigrants that want to come here are the immigrants whose homes our federal governments foreign policy has destroyed.

Thinking that anything our federal government does is to protect our borders, freedom, liberty, or way of life is just naive.

In any other country we would call this a police state? In many other countries, if this guy was suspected of being in connection to killing thousands of innocent people, he wouldn't be alive to tell his story. I think he deserved a lawyer too, and due process, but there's no way we threw him in Gitmo without evidence that he was connected, in some way, to 9/11. If we thought we could get valuable intelligence from this guy that would help us bring those connected to 9/11 to justice, so be it. Don't like being called a terrorist, don't connect yourself with them. Guilty by association. I just want to see the evidence before I go crying foul.

He was thrown in prison because for 8 years we had a paranoid psychopath at the helm (Dick Cheney).

He is not a American citizen, he deserved nothing, why can't people in this country understand that the islamist religion is a form of government and that the muslims are out to convert all of the world and to kill you if you do not. Why are you people so ignorant, have you not read the koran and what it says to do to infidels, and make no mistake about it, fi you are not muslim then you are an infidel. Open your ignorant eyes.

They didn't waterboard this guy enough.

I think that maybe you are an agent for Al Qaeda. The only way we are going to find out for sure is to imprison you and water board you until you confess to what we surely know is true. And you call yourself an American!

Relax, I'm just making a point. That if someone in authority thinks you need to be tortured all that needs to be done is to accuse you of being a spy. No trial, no charges. Just you and the interrogators for as long as we say. It could happen to you.

Windy Citizen said:

three years of detention with no charges doesn't satisfy me as a citizen who likes to believe that we have a higher standard of justice than the dictatorships that we oppose.

We as Americans like to think so, but for some of us who have been there, the truth is closer than most of you think.

Hal said, above: "It could happen to you." Yes it can. I spent three years in civil detention, in a deportation camp in Raymondville, TX that Human Rights watch called 'Ritmo' because they said the place reminded them of Guantanamo Bay.

Food served us was crawling with maggots and we were told there was no money in the budget to make another meal so we would have to do without. The lights were always on, so it was hard to get any sleep. There are no partitions between the toilets and the sleeping areas, so you went in full view of everyone, from other detainees to the gurads, Some would turn and give you privacy, but some of the guards would get their rocks off watching you go to the bathroom. There was no money in the budget to buy bras, so only those women with very heavy breasts or who were lactationg got them. For the rest of us going to the bathroom was pretty much a free stripshow for the guards. Underwearon several occasions assigned to me after the once-weekly 15 minute shower still had blood from another woman's period crusted in it because it wasn't washed before being given to me.

They'd conduct random strip and body cavity searches, and you didn't get to ask that a female conduct them--you got whoever happened to be there. we knew when we were getting searched because the guard complement for that day was all male, and certain guards had their 'favorites'. A guard would pick a girl for a search, stick their fingers into us, then say I think there's contraband in here but my fingers aren't long enough, here, have a look' and another guard would stick his fingers in.

And the reason I was detained? I was adopted as an infant internationally, and my parents died before they told me. When INS did a routine record search they found they were missing my adoption paper, came to me for a copy, and as I had no idea what 'papers' they were talking about in their 'papers, please' request, I was determined to be illegal and placed in deportation. Only afterward did they find I could not be deported--I was 'stateless' as an infant, undocumented--an infant abandoned with no paperwork saying who I was or where I was born or even how old I am.

No crime had been committed; it wasn't a crime that they lost my adoption paper, it wasn't a crime that my parents never told me I was adopted, it wasn't a crime for me to have a missing piece of paper. I had a legally filed adoptive birth certificate and my Social Security number was indubitably mine--it had never been used by anyone else. They simply told me I would spend the rest of my life in deportation until I gave them a copy of the adoption paper.

I spent three years in deportation writing letters to every courthouse in every state we'd ever lived in trying to find that adoption paper. I did finally find it and they let me go, but they warned me that if my name comes up in front of them again they can place me back in deportation.

So yes, while I agree that our justice system is based on a higher standard, recent developments in law are...troubling.

Just the ones trying to kill us Stephen. Those are the enemy. The British should have tried him for treason and shot him. Instead he becomes left-wing Icon.

That tool's comment is far from the answer. We must have had evidence that the guy had some connection and/or information that would have been valuable to bringing the terrorists to justice. It wasn't a religious or holy war we waged against the detainee just because he didn't like us because we're not Muslims, but instead an attempt to gain intelligence that could bring those responsible for 9/11 down. Again, I'm not saying he didn't deserve better, or that he was without a doubt guilty, but he must have had some connection to people involved for us to detain and interrogate him for 3 years. And if he was connected, even if he wasn't involved directly, then I don't feel bad for him. While I don't usually advocate this, he was guilty by association.

speaking of left-wings, I think this writer messed up a bit..

He also argued that President Obama’s failure to close Guantanamo has been a big mistake, calling it “a recruiting sergeant for radicalism.”

He's critical of the Obama Admin, then calls a prison a "sergeant?"

He was probably calling Obama the recruiting sergeant here, not the prison itself.

And so what do (or should) Iraqis and Afghans care about foreign nationals (us)? Their job is to aggressively protect themselves against us.

I've been waiting for years for a satisfactory explanation of why there is, or should be, a difference.

I do not remember the part where we first went over there and bombed two of there buildings killing thousands of innocent victims. They are a cowardly bunch and as with viet nam you do not know who the enemy is. If all the islamist want a war with America then they should adopt a uniform and create a army of men (not use women and children to commit suicide) and come out to fight. And even tho I hated both at least the Japanese and the Germans fought like men and not as cowards.

we are not at war with islam!! we are at war with a terrorist organization (@!$%#s, al Quaida if u will) that uses their religion (Islam) to justify their actions.

i wish i didn't care what you think either, but what logic are you using? Why isn't this a story Americans care about?

janellect, Americans (at least me) do not care because I have seen his kind close up. Lie straight to your face feed the ignorant just what they want to hear. Key question this article failed to address, How did he get sent to GITMO? I know we did not pick him up in the UK. Hmmm... His description of torture is a joke,the dog scared him...they took pictures of him naked... thats not torture. He is full of crap

...He tried but was thwarted by the Republicans...

Oh, really, as your name suggests...facts please. He was actually blocked by his own party, because instead of closing Guantanamo he simply order the purchase of a private prison in his home state of Illinois for $350 million to replace Guantanamo.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/mar/09/president-obamas-promise-close-guantanamo-bay-dete/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/07/obama-guantanamo.html

I'm so sick of people saying, "Obama tried this or tried that, but was stopped by Republicans". First off, the guy had a Dem house and senate for over 2 years, and could basically do anything he wanted. He also could have closed it by executive order, the same way he has used executive order for other things. Obama choose to keep it open because his policies are basically the same as George W. Bush. Obama is a liar and a snake oil salesman, and anyone who votes for him again deserves what they get (or don't get).

If it gets too hard, Obama says "well I asked them or tried but they wouldn't support me...". Like oh well whatever.

Moose, you're right about his own party, I stand corrected.

I don't think he's a liar, I believe he truly wants and intended to close Gitmo, it proved to be a promise he wasn't able to keep. I believe he should be judged on his intentions and his heart, which was in the right place. Desiring and attempting are far from deceit, which is the core of a lie.

Stop with the 2 years bullcrap. Thanks to Ted Kennedy getting sick there wasn't that much time with a democratic super majority. Hell, the only way you could ever call it a super majority would be by counting the independents as democrats. Obama used that time to push through the ACA and a few other bills but it's not like he had 2 unimpeded years to get his agenda through. google "democractic majority myth" since I can't post links yet.

"This is what I found out from Wikipedia"

Because you can believe everything you read on Wikipedia.

I checked several sources.

Intimidator is 100% correct.

Intimidator - If he is the nice innocent family man people say he is what was he doing at militant training camps. He just got lucky they couldn't find any hard evidence he had taken up arms.

Lots of folks took up arms in Chechnya to oppose the Russian occupation. That doesn't mean they supported the 9/11 attacks against the US.

When you were reading Wikipedia, did you notice that the British government settled out of court with Begg for their role in his torture? Apparently the UK has the courage to accept responsibility for their crimes even if the US does not.

The Chechens only storm Russian theaters and take hundreds of hostages and things like that. Shrekk, there are multiple sources. When their facts are all alike, the believeability factor goes way up. It is really odd how when people don't like what a non biased source says, people claim they are always wrong.

That is why I check multiple sources.

You have proof that this gentleman is a terrorist? If not then stop your name-calling. He was never charged or tried.

I don't think it's a stupid article. Perhaps if we were a bit more concerned with our world image, instead of just going around spouting out that we're the highest and mightiest, we wouldn't have to worry about getting attacked again. Instead, we've spent the last 11 years being the world's bully. I think this guy is probably a perfect example of bullying.

News flash: Not everyone loves America. That does not automatically make them terrorists.

The liberal media has always tried to make America look bad to the rest of the world. Just like the modern liberal textbooks have been rewritten to make the heros of White America ashamed of their heritage. What the agenda is behind this, what they hope to accomplish, I have no idea and I don't think they have either. I guess the implosion of America so some other country can eventually come in and seize power, which will happen. Soon there won't be anyone left with enough pride in America to fight for her.

I'm very sure "those" people think they are Proud Vets of their countries. I'm sure they call us Terrorists. My big problem is that I do think America is too and is forcefully trying to convert everyone to Vulture Capitalism and add them and all their resources into the "Market Place". We should become a more self-sufficient country with limited Trade, work at home and stop trying to convert everyone. Thats why they attacked. We've been in their countries for years! The first plans were made with Theodore Roosevelt for their Gulf. We just won't leave them alone.

@Julea--If that is how you feel, what exactly is preventing you from leaving the United States? I am not being snotty, but you sound so anti-American in you posts. I am sorry but if you have any family members who have faught in wars or were held as POW's, you would maybe have a little different view of what is "fair". Many people who should have been locked away have been released. Who knows if this man is telling the truth? You complain about the U.S. being all over the world, but what would happen if we weren't? Not every military base is a bad thing. You should some of the countries that appreciate what we do for them.

True Americans question and challenge their government when it is going down the wrong path. Cowards and idiots defend it based with nothing more than 'patriotism' as their reasoning.

If patriotism won out against all other logic we'd still be considered part of Great Britain.

IllegalsGoHome: Ignorance is bliss, right?

I know lot's of retarded conservatives, I certainly hope other people don't find me guilty of idiocy just for having these people as friends haha.

I would rather be a "retarded conservative" than one of the childish liberals that can't express themselves in an adult intelligent way but have to resort to adolescent name-calling. They are all the same.

It's already here. Welcome to the for-profit police state.

They did.

The evidence against him was plenty to call him a terrorist, a jihad fighter, and a leader of radical Jihadists seeking to kill westerners in terrorist attacks complete with flak jacket, night vision goggles, a book he authored outlining detailed gang affiliations and membership in England, terrorism techniques including a cd-rom he had made, and affiliations with no less than 12 major known terrorists, and self proclaimed training at several Jihadist training camps with Taliban service in war zones in several countries to boot.

What they did not find was specific plans to attack the United States or England. He was referred to in his own book as an unofficial Taliban General in England

I think Presidents are often surprised at the information they gain when they enter office, and out of necessity, their perspective changes; They grow up a little.

He IS one of those people.

It's 'not' terrorism. It's self defense! You send in your Predators and tear my family to shreds with a horrendous AGM-117 hellfire antitank missile designed to take out a 100,000 lb. steel tank.... I make hamburger out of you - and I'm a patriot!

Remember the Minutemen in early America?

No terrorist there, huh?

Really.

How many have we gassed, how many have we killed in ovens at Gitmo?

Exactly.

You'll never know the real answer to that one! Or will you simply believe what they tell you to believe?

We don't know what attrocities, if any, have been committed by us in the name of globalism, international banksterism, democracy and the American Way.

Maybe Germany fooled their citizens, too!

Well, let's just hate our government because of what Nazi Germany did and just assume our government is as evil as Hitler's was. Where will that get us the next time we are attacked? More liberal BS. Let's hate our country just because we don't know why but there must be a reason because I am a liberal and I know there is a reason to hate...blah, blah, blah.

Anyone who has no compassion for a person held w/o charge & tortured for YEARS is Soul-less!!! Had the roles been reverse, you would be ready to bomb and kill an entire country-women, children, animals and all! What a hypocrite you are! How dare you say humanity is only important when it looks like you or comes from the same country you do. You are a fool! RIGHT is RIGHT..and IF the day comes where you find yourself held up in a cell naked, abused & tortured years on end..you will pray for someone to care.

How many tens of millions of prisoners are we holding ?

How many 'experiments' have we performed upon same ?

How many domestic critics / opponents of same camps have been sent to join same prisoners ?

How many domestic critics / opponents of 'regime' have been strung up from meat hooks and filmed while stranging to death ?

I'd have to say 'none'

You're making some strong accusations there, so the burden of proof is on you, not the U.S. public nor the U.S. Govt.

"Put Up or Shut Up" as we would say.

As for inhuman, unbearable years of incarceration... well don't do the crime if you don't wanna do the time.

Also, un-uniformed insurgent combatants don't get accorded the same treatment as regular soldiers, according to the Geneva convention. Sorry, but they can get a summary, on-the-battlefield execution if desired.

Even with the flaws our system is by far better than most. And we do not just stand pat, we know and acknowledge the flaws while trying to fix them.

Amen.

The US kills and enslaves far more people. Your media does not tell it to you.

and the united states of america cannot make one mistake mistreating one single person?

LOL. one SINGLE person? Is that what you believe, it was just one SINGLE person? Is that what Bush, or FAUX news told you?

OBAMA/BIDEN....2012!!!!

Minding their own frickin business. Which makes it none of yours. Your attitude is what evil thrives on.

gunner-3867236 -

Indeed - and the same question should be asked of anyone in a war zone. Like Londoner's during the Battle of Britain, and those million terrorists formerly known as the population of Kandahar (512,000 now).

"You're in Afghanistan, therefore, you are a terrorist."

A terrorist is someone that has committed a terrorist act. This man clearly has not, and if someone want s to make that proposition, then they need SOME kind of evidence. - there's not even any accusation of his involvement in ANY specific terrorist act.

Association or sympathy is not proof of a terrorist act. If it were, then we would have to round uo every good ol boy with a confederate flag on their pick up, every Civil War buff who owns books sympathestic to Lee, Davis, and Calhoun, every Neo-Nazi with a swastika tat or who owns a copy of The Turner Diaries, every militia member who plays war games in the woods on week-ends to train for an uprising against the US federal gov't, and every American citizen who has ever said that any other citizen should be "taken out and shot" or "rounded up and put in camps" (because both of those things are terrorist acts).

But we don't do that because none of those things are crimes. Thinking something, hating someone, or hating a group to which you do not belong - these things are not crimes, and certainly not ACTS of terrorism. There is no evidence that this man committed a crime.

And if being in a teen-age street gang makes you terrorist, then you should rather be protested the James Dean Museum or some production of West Side Story as Terrorist propaganda.

Reverend Wright said it best in 2008: "God damn AmeriKKKa!"

As an African American, Navy Vet, Former cold warrior, patriot, citizen. I have in my lifetime been conflicted by the policies and actions of the country that I love.

But kidnapping this man and throwing him in a dark hole subject to treatment which we, when it was applied to Americans, called torture, this is not the America I was steeped in during my education, this was not the America of the great men I read about and strove to in some small way emulate, this was not the America that we felt we were protecting on those long cold days at sea playing games with the soviets, This was not the America That I thought Ronald Reagan was discribing as "That shining city on the hill"

My grand mother used to tell me, don't drag yourself down to the level of your foe. Well, we had a group of leaders who convinced us that this is what we should do. And it stinks.

I long for the America where honor, and standing for right even in the face of great evil, even at great peril, and not sacrificeing what made us great and good, because we're angry!

I was never a fan of Ronald Reagan But that phrase, Shining city on the hill, Says it all for me.

george-3883793 - Man is corrupted and that is why governments are corrupted. If there was a fear of the LORD in man and if there was a fear of the LORD within all government learders than this would be a different world. Unrighteous leaders make unrighteous governments.... As revealed in the Old Testament God used heathen nations and unrighteous leaders in hope of drawing the hearts of the people back to Himself, so too is God doing the same with America. Just as the Israelites refused to turn back to seeking God, so is it with the vast majority of Americans today.

Man has failed God and now God has revealed His judgment for America. Google : Hand of Help, click on Dreams/Visions and again on Dumitru Duduman and click on 1984 The Message For America. Or google: Watchman On the Wall, America ~ Mystery Babylon?