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Subscribe to RSSIf you were seeking confirmation that the current economic crisis really is evil, look no further than the Holy See.
The Vatican reported on Thursday that its tiny state wasn't spared by the global economic downfall. With its budget deficit hitting $19 million, 2011 was one of the Holy See's worst financial years on record.
With lines for entering Vatican museums and Saint Peter's Basilica consistently as long as the Vatican wall, last year alone tickets for attractions like the Sistine Chapel filled the Vatican's coffers with more than $90 million. If to that you add the almost $70 million the pope received in charitable donations, it's difficult to believe that the smallest state in the world, with its 0.2-square-miles territory, could ever go in the red.
But it turns out the Vatican's assets can be a mixed blessing.
Alberto Pizzoli / AFP - Getty Images file
St. Peter's Basilica is visited by Vatican tourists.
The sheer cost of employing almost 3,000 people to run the Vatican, its radio and newspaper services, plus the especially bad real estate market affecting some of Italy's most prestigious palazzos owned by the Vatican, mean it spent more, much more, than it earned.
While the budget deficit is one of the worst ever recorded, it certainly is not the first time the Vatican’s balance sheet has looked as red as a cardinal’s hat.
In 2010 the Holy See posted a $12 million surplus, but in 2009 it ran a deficit of about $5 million. In 2008 it did a bit better, by closing the year in the minus by a little more than a $1 million, but that came after it ran a budget deficit of more than $10 million in 2007.
But there is no need for the Holy See's employees to pray to keep their jobs.
The Rev. Federico Lombardi, the Holy See’s spokesperson, said that “a call was made for prudence and limiting costs, though while maintaining jobs.” Nobody at the Vatican, it seems, is going to get fired. Instead they'll take a closer look at where they can find savings.
Once again, the devil is in the details.
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Leave a Comment:
Well is it any wonder that the catholic church is in trouble financially? After all, it has to pay out millions to its victims of sexual abuse, and the legal costs...to say nothing of keeping the pope and cardinals in a luxurious lifestyle....
Just can't believe anyone would give any money to this organization.
Maybe people give money because priests, nuns, monks and missionaries tend to the sick, run hospitals and schools, particularly in poor countries and do many other good things. The recent scandal is a terrible thing but as we can see from Penn State it is something that occurs in many places. The Catholic Church does more good in this world than it does bad. After all Mother Teresa was a Catholic nun.
However, I do agree with you about them living in a luxurious lifestyle.
Also they just paid 57 Million dollars to buy The Cathedral in Garden Grove, CA. They didn't need that either.
Theirs plenty of other organizations that do the same thing. People could donate to these instead. And they don't have an agenda promoting ignorance and hate.
I'm sure religious types are going to constantly point to Penn State as a scapegoat but the situations are completely different. All this proves is that yes, this happens outside of the catholic church as well. Everyone already knew that. The catholic church pedophile ring was widespread and blatantly covered up for decades. They knew what was going on for decades and did nothing to stop it.
Take your punches, there all well deserved.
Mother Teresa was a nun (job description) but she wasn't really Catholic. She said that for the last 25 years of her life she did not believe in god. She told this toher confessor, who has written a book. He has her letters to prove it.
And the pope has recently instructed nuns to forsake the sick and the poor and concentrate on fighting gay marriage.
Andthe difference between Penn State and the Vatican is that Penn state people are having their azzes put in jail. The Vatican? Not so much.
And by the way.........they may have had a bad year, but they're still worth zilliions. All they have to do is sell some of the paintings and jewelry and rare manuscripts they store in air controlled environments. They're worth more than the rest of the world put together. But have you heard of anything good they've done lately? Even for their own people?
The Vatican is not paying out claims related to sex abuse nor is it paying for the legal defense of priests and dioceses that have been sued. The suits are brought against the diocese specifically and the Vatican has maintained it has no control over the administration of these diocese. Legally they are independent of the Vatican. This is done to protect the Vatican itself against lawsuits and claims.
If they are in the red, boo hoo. Sell a painting or two and wear the same robes for two seasons instead of one.
Good!!!
They can always sell some of those gold chalices.
I donate money to the Maryknoll Sister's as Nuns taught me how to read, write and figure. My first day of school was so supporting when I told her I knew some of the ABC's and she asked me to recite them and I said "ABC". Maryknoll also supported the war against Raygun's Contras in Nicaragua. The Contras were known for killing Benjamin Linder, an engineer who was trying to help a village with their water supply. I donate money to another portion of Catholic Relief Services, Running Strong for American Indian Youth run by Olympic Gold medalist, Billy Mills, as basically I feel like we screwed the American Indian and my small part and it is small way of making up for that.
@GBR in O-H, I-O Not everyone would agree that Mother Theresa did as much good as the majority of people say she did.
Mother Theresa did more harm to poor women in India by limiting their access to birthcontrol, and thereby limiting the number one way for them to have a chance of rising above the insane poverty there, than all of the supposed "saintly" works credited to her. She was no "saint."
If my memory serves, that last time I was in St. Peters there seemed to be enough gold in the building to get them comfortably out of debt. Lord knows, the poor will not miss it. Me, either, for that matter.
Here's a misconception. Abortion and Birth Control are neccessary- WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Its a matter of choice- indulgence? or control. Control urges and sacrifice some pleasure for responsibility? Naaa...America just has sex as if its nothing. Sex creates life- its not something to be taken lightly- as far too many people do.
Vatican helps the poor is a thing of the past, they use only a small portion to help the poor, the rest is to use in their lifestyle.
They have private banks, jets, cars, houses, maids, butler, hospitals, securities and more. It also worth mentioning that they have party each night. No wonder they are in red.
GBR in O-H, I-O
Mother Teresa was a deluded person that did nothing to help people. She thought their suffering was a blessing from god that made them closer to him. There is NOTHING the Catholic Church does that could not be met by secular ends *AND* without all of the corruption and wasted money.
Hello folks, please don’t buy into this B.S. that the Vatican is having financial problems. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This may be the biggest lie ever told when it comes to the absolutely vast amounts of wealth they actually have! They are worth trillions of dollars.
For example, the Catholic Arch Diocese of Boston as well as New York both publish annual financial statements. On even a quick look at their figures, just these two divisions of the Catholic Church hold assets and income worth several billion dollars.
Again, let us be absolutely clear on this. The Catholic Church for the past 1,000 years was the indisputable largest economic entity of humanity in history. No other nation, corporation or group of families came anywhere close. For centuries, the Church and the Popes had unfettered access to the plunder of Islamic countries, of the ancient Celts and Saxons, of ancient Greek, of ancient Egypt, of the entire fortunes of gold of the Americas, of the mines and civilizations of Africa.
As the largest economic entity of history for over 1,000 years, the Roman Catholic Church dominated ever single class of assets, not just gold and minerals. Its property holdings were by far the largest of any economic entity in Europe, let alone conquered lands. Their holding of art and precious artifacts was and is unheralded.
The Roman Catholic Church was a founder in virtually every historic major enterprise created out of states under its influence. It had holdings in new corporations from trading companies to banks and then major industries were unmatched.
Don’t buy into the revisionist history that wars, economic and political incompetence with bad fortune account for their “economic woes”. There are no economic woes!
The Vatican is the largest holder of land titles, gold, and banking shares of any organization or government in the world.
The current market property value of Vatican City, in the heart of Rome alone is worth between US $1 to 3 Billion. This excludes the value of the priceless artworks and valuables stored within its walls.
To hide the massive assets of the Catholic Church, a decentralized system with safeguards and controls were invented.
The major investments of property, fixed assets were transferred under the control of the dioceses around the world. In turn, all non-visible church property was hidden via complex shelf companies and trusts.
Folks this deceit regarding their finances goes far and deep and they are far from broke. Once you take off your religious blinders, at the end of the day they are nothing more than pedophiles, crooks and thieves and now they want you to feel sorry for them and give them more money. Now you know where the banksters get their morals and ethics. These are all easily verifiable facts that a little bit of research will uncover quickly.
@ Hughes...Typical of a man to defend the patriarchy of the Catholic Church that regards women as breeding machines and second class citizens that happily produce more little Catholics. Telling women to keep their knees together while looking the other way while priests molest little boys. Seriously, your post is so bloody pompous and self righteous. People who think like you are the types that keep me out of church. Sex is to be ENJOYED. Procreation at the end of it is NOT required or necessary.
@John Hughes Catholic and Proud
Tell that to the couple conservatives who have 14 children from 8 months to 14 years, then left them for 10 days with minimal food while they travel out of state. The children have to beg neighbor for food.
GOP only care about fetus, as soon as it leaves the womb, they condemn it as a parasite to society.
Also, keep your faith to yourself. Not everyone is a Christian, only around 1 billion people are Christian, 6 billions others would beg the different.
The Vatican bank is still sitting on Billions, so an operating deficit of 19 million is nothing. They've got enough cash to pay off parents for a hundred years.
John Hughes also missed the part where Pride is the biggest sin of all the Deadly Sins - it is the sin that spawns all other sins.
Catholic history and how they got all those assets, should never be forgotten - even the Vikings look good next to Catholics.
Mother T was a charlatan and a hypocrite. She held hands with the dying poor and collected millions. When she became ill she had the best treatment at the best hospitals in the world.
the church gets its money by deceiving the gullible and the mentally ill. The pope and his evil cabal should be in jail for theft by deception, which is what you are the victim of whenever you give money to any church.
Sorry, I cannot waste any sympathy on the financial woes of Vatican. If they have need of further income, let them send Cardinal (and former Boston Archbishop) Law out to find gainful employment. He is pretty good a swinging an incense censor, modeling funny hats and accusing those who feel protecting pedophiles is a crime, of anti-Catholicism.
He should be fit to work as a janitor, a counter person at a doughnut shop, or just about anything which does require large amounts of either intelligence or moral integrity.
DMAN3353357, Please do not confuse those Priests with Janitors, we do NOT F#@k the children we see every day. I actually used to pick good lunches lovingly made by rich moms out of the garbage after lunch to put in my fridge for those poor ones who came to school without breakfast next day, among other things., also a school has nothing to do with religion unless it is a catholic school, I am Not a catholic but was sent to a catholic school as a Protestant when I was 13 , I saw more thieving and hypocrisy there so I turned my back on organized religion for good, The only reason people go to a church is to make others think they are good people and they are NOT. My God is in my heart not to be shared with others.
If you go to a catholic service the priest will blow smoke at you splash water on you tell you to put money in the box or you will be damned then go back stage where the altar boys are. The catholic church was invented by Satan as was Islam.
GBR in OH-IO payback is a Mother F^@ck~r. Look at the harm, murdering and of course their papal bull that led to the Doctrine of Discovery. I believe the Holy See is seeing all of the bad they have done on this continent since setting foot on it coming back to them. They are so full of themselves they will not revoke their papal bull of Romanus Pontifex to right their wrongs and misperceptions of ALL humans must be of the Catholic faith. It is my contention they are beginning to see, definite pun intended, to come back to haunt them and their past deeds of destruction of a peaceful people. San Louis Obisbo stands as a constant reminder to all people of this world to remember the death and destruction they wrought upon others. Let them burn in hell if there is one for their past and present deeds. I will always stand by my statement because it is the truth. They are an evil bunch of hypocrites.
This is not any surprise considering how high off the hog the upper hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church lives. Mansions, big limos, private jets. And people wonder why they have financial problems? And this does not even include the massive lawsuits they have been hit with in recent years!
Intellect, truth is in the eyes of the beholder.
This has the stink of misinformation about it. The Vatican has plenty of wealth. It's simply that the bulk of that wealth is intended for the inner circle of the good ol' boys' club. How much so those popemobiles cost?
Considering the value of the art, artifacts, gold and precious jewels in the Vatican museum, I'm just not feelin their pain.
Note to the Pope: Do what others of us do when we need some extra cash....have a yard sale, or put some of your priceless items in a fine arts auction. I bet you'll raise that $19 mil in no time flat.
The pope's car costs $5,000,000...it's pretty anti-religious to even need security as a "spiritual leader". Doesn't the bible say something like that if you pray then god will protect you? I love religious hypocrites...
Wow, many of you fail at reading comprehension. The Vatican is in the read for the year. That does not mean they are in debt. This is not the first time this has happened and many organizations run in the red now and then. They are in the black more often than not and have more than enough assets to make it through. Try reading the entire article before posting.
No, she questioned her faith. Questioning faith and not believing in God are two very different things. Every person of faith at some point question theirs. Some people do it daily. It can be an ongoing struggle. Also any confessor that is telling you what she said while in confession is already discredited because they've broken one of the most sacred vows a priest take.
Please show where and when the Pope said that or wrote said order?
You're last statement shows you have little to no understanding of how the Church works, how the legal system works and what is going on at Penn State.
As for everyone else bashing Mother Teresa, seriously.... Find a hobby.
Have you ever read the Bible? How does that cost compare to the Presidents Limo? Once upon a time you used to be able to walk up to the White House knock on the door and talk to the President. The current state is not very conducive to democracy. If you're looking for a hypocrite, then you might want to look in the mirror.
The upper hierarchy has lived a lavish lifestyle for centuries. But there are several ways to cut costs. Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. The upper hierarchy can cut costs, they can raise the cost of candles, they can go back to selling cardinal-ships, residuals, or better yet, they can defrock pedophiles. At least their deficits are still in the tens of millions instead of billions
GBR in O-H, I-O: The President doesn't follow a religious text for guidance...the Pope does. If the Pope is second-guessing his religion, then why should anyone believe his religion if he himself doesn't believe it?
The Vicar of Christ, Pope Benedict XVI needs a lot of pray for soooooo much evil and ignorance that I am reading. Que Viva Cristo Rey!!!
You do realize that every President ever has sworn his oath of office on a Bible?
Although I'm sure at times he does, when did I or this article ever say the Pope second guessed his religion?
It's not just his religion, it's 1.2 billion peoples religion.
People second guess our constitution and laws all the time why should we believe in it? Scientists second guess there own theories all the time, Einstein is probably the most famous example, why should we believe them? Are you saying that every time someone has doubts about anything ever we should abandon it completely? Have you succeeded at any endeavor ever? Do you quit at everything the first time you have doubts?
Dora Kramer, so I'm ignorant for pointing out the fact that the Pope is a hypocrite? Lol, I noticed that neither one of you could come up for an answer to my question:
If the Pope doesn't even believe in his own religion, then WHY should anyone else believe it?
They spend that much on vestments every year. And when you give your money at your local church, most of it works its way up to Rome. Very little stays at the local level. So now they will ask for a special collection to bail out Rome and eople will give until it hurts - unless they live in a third world country and they will give everything thery can in chickens and work around the church. but that won't pay the bills. Rome has been bleeding the regular parishes for an eternity and it will keep on doing it.
"People second guess our constitution and laws all the time why should we believe in it? Scientists second guess there own theories all the time, Einstein is probably the most famous example, why should we believe them? Are you saying that every time someone has doubts about anything ever we should abandon it completely? Have you succeeded at any endeavor ever? Do you quit at everything the first time you have doubts?"
GBR: Laws and theories are based around facts, not personal religious beliefs of someone thousands of years ago. You can't confuse the two. Answer me this...
What reason do I as an Agnostic have to convert to his religion if he clearly doesn't believe in his own religion?
Hmmm profits are down for the Vatican, looks like they might have to fire Jesus.
EdNavDoc there are many in the millions who hold the same truths as I do. Forced assimilation is as bad as it gets. The Church overstepped their boundaries especially when based upon greed and possessions to make the Church wealthier at any cost. If there is a God as the Church describes then I do not believe the Holy See or his appointed representatives have a corner on the market of talking to God or forgiving men of their sins. Just too far fetched for learned people to subscribe to.
I think the Church should blame Obama for the reason they are in debt. Hey if Obama can blame everything as to why this country hasn't recovered yet(typhoon, ATM machines) then why can't the church blame obama?
If they didn't have so much trouble from pedophile priests butt fuc king alter boys, there wouldn't be a deficit.
People with inflammatory comments are not Catholics. If self professed or considering self to be Catholics, evidently failed to understand the true meaning of being Catholics. The Vatican has to look like a slum to be accepted by ignorant people? Any of you who enjoys name calling of the Catholic Church ever been in the Vatican? or you all just see them in TV or movies. You all have no right to say sell paintings, this is so low life of you all. Those who are Catholic basher are having a field day with this article with twisted thoughts. The Catholic Church itself do not response to any evil comments, instead they will pray over the evil thoughts of others. The people of Catholic faith will do the re battle, while some may do the same of praying over these evil people will be enlightened.
Laws and Science are not based on facts. Secular laws are based on beliefs and scientific theories are based on conjecture, hypothesis, observation and experimentation. None of those are facts.
Your question is invalid for two reasons. No one here has asked you to convert to anything and you have not demonstrated that he (the pope) does not believe in said religion.
No, it has been covered up for centuries, not decades. Those of you who think that the popes and other clergy associated with the Catholic Church are decent people who believe in God and want the best for mankind, you should go back and read about the lifestyles and crimes committed by popes, etc., in earlier centuries. These people are as sinister and evil as the devil himself.
They are a truly sinister and disgusting breed of people, well said AtticusRules, Just waiting for the time they go bust, I hope I'm around to see it.
Lol! Don't hold your breath.
Let's see, where do I start?
1- So much for that vow of poverty.
2- Render unto Ceasar....
3- Isn't money the root of all evil anyhow?
4- What'd the Pope's Prada shoes cost?
4a- I guess it's true- the Devil really does wear Prada.
5- I guess settling all those child-rape lawsuits got expensive.
6- Just sell a few of those giant golden crosses.
7- If the Vatican goes belly up, who bails it out??
8- How did they not (holy) See this coming?
9- I guess the Pope won't be getting his bonus at the end of the year.
9a- (just kidding, of course he'll get his bonus.)
10- Karma. Ain't it a bitch.
GBR (1.32) - Sorry, but I have to call you out on a FLAT OUT LIE.
Every US President certainly HAS NOT been sworn in on a bible.
John Quincy Adams, Franklin Pierce, Teddy Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, Lyndon Johnson, Thomas Jefferson....
Just to name a few.
You're going to have to provide some evidence for that. I googled it and did not come up with any consensus. Wikipedia stated "It is uncertain how many Presidents used a Bible" The rest were random internet websites with no real credibility.
I will acquiesce on the point of "All". However, we can safely say a healthy majority have been sworn in on a Bible. Also in many cases Presidents were sworn in quickly after the death of their predecessor but were later sworn in publicly. I will state that there is no law that requires the President to be sworn in on a Bible but most choose to. That does say something about what they believe.
Gee, GBR in O-H-I-O, thanks for the admonishment. Two questions: From an accounting standpoint, what does it mean to be "in the read for the year"? Is that the opposite of being "in the bleak"?
I know I shouldn't be surprised at the anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred I have seen here, as this is the home of the so-called compassionate progressives. The hatred and bile based on hearsay, exaggeration, and out right lies is staggering in this thread.
First of all what the article is discussing is the Vatican (as a state) not the whole of the Catholic Church so bringing up the real estate holdings of the archdiocese in the United States has NOTHING to do with the Vatican's finances.
Second, although I abhor what transpired with the sexual abuse that has been prevalent and covered up bv the Church hierarchy, the fact is the amount of actual pedophilia in the Church is no higher than in any other demonination or for that matter in society as a whole. It's exposure and subsequent media attention, because it is the Church, made it appear more wide spread thanit truly was. Additionally, much of the so-called abuse was NOT pedophilia, but what is termed ephebophilia, which is sexual attraction and activity between older men and those in their mid to late teens.
Third, most of the money's paid to sexual abuse was covered by insurance that the individual archdioses are required to purchase, NOT the Vatican. So the Vatican debt has noting to do with sexual abuse payments.
Fourth, this is the one that gets me the most, as I have heard this STUPID argument for decades. That, "the church is rich" and "it should just sell a couple of paintings". I really try to believe that most people are intelligent but statement like that prove to me the complete opposite. The view of the Church "money" is based on the the holdings it has in the U.S. and Europe. What is NEVER taken into consideration, all the hospitals, schools, clinics, food kitchens, and thousands of charities that the Church runs in third world countries. We are talking TRILLIONS of dollars in expense. These charities cannot be funded alone by the donations given a Masses in the U.S. and Europe. This is where those "paintings" and other works of art, real estate, etc. come into play. The Church uses those "treasures" as collateral to BORROW money from the World Bank, IMF or other large banking entities. If they were to sell off their so-called treasure once that money was used up that would be it. They would have to close most if not all those charitable organisations that feed, clothe, educate and nurse millions of poor world wide.
I suggest to those HATERS on this thread to hear the words of our l Lord and judge not, least you be judged or at the very least get your facts straight before you sling specious accusations around.
Newsvine posters never fail. I wonder what happened in most of your lives to be such negative people? I read posts just to see who is the most absurd and negative.
No one is here to punch them in the face so they feel they can say whatever suits their fancy, irrespective of how obnoxious it is. They also flag peoples post because they disagree with it and not for any of the legitimate reasons you should flag a post.
Let them all dry up and b;low away like dust in the wind. If they weren't converting people to molest kids for entertainment, then they wouldn't be hurting, and I even question if they are financially hurting in the first place.
Maybe they should do away with their cooks and servants, do away with the pope-mobile, do away with all the gold, silver and other jewels they have in their crusty old hose of purvs.
If the rest of the world must downsize and save, then these charlatans should be made to do the same, and start taxing all these goddamn churches and religions and end their free ride in America and the rest of the world.
Hello Just shaking my head, you said: "the fact is the amount of actual pedophilia in the Church is no higher than in any other demonination or for that matter in society as a whole".
The sexual abuse that has been perpetrated by the Catholic Church on tens of thousands of innocent children is on a scale that lends itself so that even the casual observer has to wonder if it is an accepted ritual within the church. Many people come to the defense of the church stating that it is the celibate role that has lent itself to the wide spread abuse. If so, why are the majority of victims boys?
A study done by The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect found that even though only 25% of citizens in the U.S. are Roman Catholic, 54% of the sexual abuse cases were perpetrated by Catholic priests. The church has paid at least 2.6 billion to settle sexual abuse cases. In 2007 alone the Los Angeles Archdiocese on July 15 announced the largest church settlement of sexual abuse lawsuits to date, agreeing to pay more than 500 alleged victims a total of $660 million. The abuse continues and the wealthy Vatican is easily able to cover these claims. The Vatican even has insurance policies to cover these operating costs.
The minor victims of priest abuse are overwhelmingly boys and teenagers, which is
contrary to the pattern of abuse in the general population.
The problem is not just with the number of priests who molests young children, but in
a Vatican power structure which harbors and conceals pedophiles, hides other
sexual behavior patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity
and counterattack against the victims.
Why is it that in most countries the Catholic Church doesn’t have to abide by the same laws that apply to other pedophiles and rapists? And why don’t Catholics see this atrocity as an integral part of their church?
Pedophile priests have molested innocent children in the Roman Catholic Church probably since the beginning of the church. These pedophiles have been protected and their horrendous crimes against children have gone unpunished. It is amazing to me that there are over a billion Catholics. I guess acceptance of pedophilia in the church is the cost of salvation!
No, you just fail to understand the church in it's entirety. You also fail to understand that the church is 2000 years old and that pedophilia as a crime is an entirely modern concept as well as all sex crimes outside of adultery which is no longer a crime in most countries. Also the U.S. has one of the highest age of consent laws in the world. Most of Europe is 14-15 years old, with some at 13 and others at 16. If a priest in Spain for example has sex with a 13 year old boy although it may be frowned upon it is perfectly legal there. Certain portions of Mexico and South America allow sex at the time of puberty. In fact the majority of the world allows most people to consent to sex somewhere between the ages of 12 and 16 depending on the country.
He're a nice little chart for you.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
The problem is not so much the Church as it is your ideas of what it should be.
Wow Billy, you are more than silly and your words are spoken as if you have had some experience shopping at kidsRus. If you don't think its a crime for an adult to molest a 12 year old you and I have a huge gap between us in terms of our morals and ethics. Kids at that age barely know how to dress themselves much less manage an active sex life. Kids are programmed at an early age to respect authority so with that and tack on immaturity they are helpless victims at the hands of a "holy man".
I guess the first amendment does allow for freedom of speech even for pedophiles!
Lol! Well maybe you couldn't dress yourself at 12 years old but I guarantee you the majority of 12 year olds can in fact dress themselves. Although most people aren't in special ed classes either. Also many children are sexually active in Middle School. I know in the perfect little bubble of white suburbia that is not the case but elsewhere it is. It seems that you're in denial about the true state of things much like many religious zealots are in denial about science.
So Uncle Billy . . . At what age is it REALLY O.K. For a young girl to have consensual relations with YOU??
Well that's a great question but I supposed it begs the question of what do you mean by really OK? Is that personally, morally, legally etc...?
Personally I prefer women close to my own age. Usually between 5-7 years, however I have dated a woman that was 11 years older than me as well as one that was 10 years younger.
Morally it is entirely subjective. As an example Gandhi was married and having sex with his wife at age 13. I don't think anyone would question the morality of Gandhi. However some would question the morality of arranged marriages, even though many of them work very well. In many countries there are marriages between 30 year olds and young teenage women and that was rather common in our own country 100 years ago. Ty Cobb's Mother was 15 when she had him and was married to a much older man. Marriages of that type were the norm in much of the ancient world and since many countries on this earth have been in existence for over 1000 years those traditions persist today. The fact is, (and what is really my point) our own current cultural abhorrence to certain levels of pedophilia, basically older people, say above the age of 21 having sex with someone in the age range of 11-16 is isolated to Britain and its former colonies, I.E U.S., Canada, Australia. and has only been the case for 100 or so years. The rest of the world has much more tolerance and acceptance for it. So the Catholic Church that exists in almost every country on the planet, somehow has to understand and manage the culture differences in every country. Naturally it fails at this from time to time and it failed at understanding how Americans view the subject of pedophilia.
Legally I think the U.S.'s law should be similar to Canada's. That is, the legal age is 16 across the board with a 5 year age exception for 14-15 year olds and a 2 year exception for 12-13 year olds. Currently it differs from state to state in the U.S. and the U.S. at the federal level can claim extraterritorial jurisdiction at the age of 18. So basically it is illegal for you to go to another country and take advantage of their laws. I'm uncertain about the constitutionality of the extraterritorial jurisdiction and it is also very difficult to enforce.
Quit&L - I believe the appropriate formula is "half plus seven."
So... if one partner is 22 the other should be at least (22 X 1/2 = 11 + 7 =) 18.
If one partner is 50 the other should be at least (50 X 1/2 = 25 + 7 =) 32.
I don't know where that formula originated, it's just the rule of thumb I've known for many years.
Obviously, whenever either partner is at, near, or below the legal limit, then the legal limit takes absolute precendent.
They have more money than that. They are hiding it before more victims of their pedo priest come forward.
Sale some assets and live within your means. Everyone else in the world has to.
Except the USA, Greece, and the list goes on and on.
but whos gonna wear fancy dresses?
Maybe it's time to drive the popebike around instead of the popemobile.
Explains the Bishop's Super Pac for deep conservative messaging.
Thanks for the laugh!
The organization it 2000, well, I guess that's not accurate, maybe 1000 years old. They've had times that their coffers have been empty in the past. I'm sure they'll find a way to keep their doors open.
That's a shame. It would be better for everyone if they didn't.
However, I think we're all assuming that this has something to do with the Catholic Church and their means, which clearly is not so. This is just the business that is the Vatican City which in my opinion should belong to Rome. No religion should be able to hold some of the worlds most priceless works of art hostage and sell admission to see them.
Don't museums have priceless works of art and charge admission to see them? Are the Louvre, the Tate, and other museums holding things hostage too? Think your argument has some holes since it really doesn't matter what organization has the art and charges admission. As long as the artwork is conserved properly so the public can continue to see them, who cares who's doing it?
That said, if Vatican City is in the red, they can always sell a painting or two, cut down the bureaucracy, and live within their means. I really don't have a lot of sympathy for their lower bank balance.
Lizzie- Most museums in Europe are free.
@PAQ - in Britain perhaps (although special exhibit admission can be pricey and range between 5 and 20 GBP depending on the exhibit/museum), but not necessarily the rest of Europe. Examples - ticket fee for the Louvre permanent collection is around $13, the Prado is 12 EUR, the Uffizi is 6.50 EUR. And I was speaking about museums anywhere, even if the examples I gave were in Europe. The point still is that it doesn't matter if it's a church or a museum that is charging admission to see the art - the art isn't being held hostage.
bankrupt the crime syndicate... Maybe they should think twice about $1000 shoes, and fancy dresses..
Sell the billion dollar bath tub of Nero you confiscated and you should be able to make it for it a while.
time to pay up your dues to the church and secure your path to heaven.
Sell the billion dollar bath tub you confiscated from Nero and you should be covered for a while
Oh too bad. No religious organization should have as much money or assets as they have. Isn't it against christian beliefs to have money? Aren't they supposed to live in poverty? Isn't that what Jesus would do?
All they have to do is sell something. Anything. Put the popes hat on Ebay. That should be enough to get them out of debt.
Let them bless and sell unleavened crackers on eBay! Shout hallelujah!
Unleavened crackers! They could have Jesus on them! Or the Pope! Unleavened crackers blessed by the Pope with Jesus! Count me in.
The catholic church has been one of the biggest money making org. in the world since I was a child!! ( I'm 62). I was raised catholic,left a long time ago and never looked back. They deserve all the bad press they receive, wake up catholics, this is not the one true faith!!
They attempted to raise me as a catholic too and it did not take. However I would throw a hundred bucks for and official proclamation of excommunication signed by the pope and suitable for frameing.
They should pray for money!
take 50% of them what is busy praying for sustinance, and put them to work doing meaningful employment.
(i once prayed for a bicycle for Xmas, but didn't get one...then i got a job and bought one.)
Jimbob, that's not how religion works.
I once prayed for a bicycle for Xmas but didn't get one. Went out and stole one and then prayed for forgiveness.
No prob. They could probably make that money up in one weekend selling their kiddie porn.
A few bad apples in the mix and the entire world-wide Catholic priesthood is labeled a gang of pedophiles in your opinion. Ignorant schmuck.
But instead of throwing out those MANY bad apples, the Pope and the Catholic Church was duplicit in re-shuffling and reselling those bad apples to different parishes when more evil took root. You shouldn't call someone ignorant considering that you sound like pretty ignorant yourself for having stock in a something as man made as religion itself.
Being priests makes the child abuse thing the ULTIMATE betrayal.
I read a comparison to Penn State, OK, pedophiles are everywhere but one can't compare it to a religious setting. The abuses by the priests were atrocious and an ultimate betrayal of a child's trust.
They should go broke with all their lies and deception.....
My wife who is Catholic...Won't give the Pope a dime! At the "Peter's Pence" collection, she wrote a note and advised that she was donating to the nuns that the Pope is giving a hard time to. Why would anyone want to be a nun when the church brass are such A**holes?
Ah, nothing like the jolt from good, old fashion anti-catholicism to make my day. Before you post anything about the subject of the article -- the Vatican had more expenses than revenues last year -- you should know that the Vatican is a separate financial entity from other parts of the Church. Dioceses or religious orders dealing with abuse issues are responsible for generating the funds necessary to settle with victims or to meet court-ordered financial settlements. Go spew your venom elsewhere!! As for "conservative messaging," the US Catholic Bishops supported the ACA. Only when the President double-crossed them did they wake up and realize they'd been had. Consequently, Church organizations had little choice but to sue the Federal Government. The Supremes decision on this one should be interesting!
Of course the Vatican is a seperate entity from other parts of the church. That way they can keep their money and not have to "share."
The president didn't double cross them. He said if you want to play with government money, you have to follow government rules. Come on now. The Catholic church knows what rules are, don't they? They have millions of them.
Oh, yeah, I forgot, they keep changing the rules, don't they. We can eat fish on Friday now. And Christopher isn't a saint.
They keep wishing the US government would change their rules on stuffing little boys..............ain't going to happen.
How about this- the Church does the government a favor- and Obama makes an egregious move that slaps the Church in the faith. If all Catholic Hospitals were to close- the economy and healthcare would suffer. Catholic Hospitals are everywhere! Catholic Schools are everywhere! Obama is playing the Bishop's bluff, and its despicable. The Church will have to close its agencies on moral grounds. Yes (morals mean something to the Church, unlike Obama) He wants the Church to close because it makes the Church looks bad- thanks MSNBC. If the Bishops don't close and succumb to Obama's order- whats to say the government won't force the Church to marry gay couples- NOTHING. Its a direct attack on religion as we know it. The Church gets attacked for preaching from the pulpit against the government, yet Sharpton can preach Obama at a pulpit and nothing happens. Double Standard? Of course.
Hey John... "Pride comes before a fall."
"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all of them who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, and said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Child molesters, a doctrine of hate and judgment, vaults of valuables, a Bank on the property, Is there really any doubt what Jesus would do with the Vatican ?
The President is standing for the sovereignty of every child, woman, and man in the country--without a pecking order. This is a great service and mirrors the gospel as I understand it.
John......You really think the Catholic church is important don't you. Catholic hospitals and schools are everywhere!!! you say. So what. I think the U.S. will survive fine without them. I'd at least like to give that a shot. And morals mean something to the church, you say? You mean the kind of morals that protect child rapists? All of this isn't an attack on the church, it's people fighting back from an attack by the church. Don't try to rule this country with your religion. We won't allow it. None of us.
Oh, and by the way, about your email before this one about sex....................it really isn't just for procreation anymore. We finally realized god made it feel good for a reason, and we're going with that.
Im with you. Catholicism is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on mankind. There is nothing Christian about it. It is a cult of the highest order. The Pope is the anti-Christ
The most beautiful treasure the "Church" buried was Jesus. His teachings and all His original Christian followers, were suppressed.
A dear Catholic friend referred me to a website www.Universal life-THE Inner Religion.
Here you'll find "Open Letters to the Pope" by former Catholics. The confrontational letters are interesting reads.
I am sure Jesus is disappointed.
Let all churches die out. Their weird beliefs and antiquated ways have no place in a modern society. Seriously, believing that an invisible guy in the sky will save you or solve your problems is stopping you from solving your own problems and does nothing for world peace.
"a guy in the sky" now Vet1..you're being chauvinistic! Wait..the Catholic church already beat you to it with it's attack on the US nuns and prohibition of female priesthood.
consp- uhh dude- it isn't the Churches choice! Kind of given by this great man named Jesus Christ! He had women followers- all the apostles were men. Women can be very active (and are very active) in roles as Eucharistic Ministers, teachers, lectors, Cantors, Secretaries, Religious Education directors, CFOs. The nuns that are now old are 70's nuns, just as the 70's priests (hippie priests who are far too liberal and think like Protestants (e.g. do whatever the heck you want) are slowly dying out- entering eternal life- maybe.
If you have seen the latest generation of priests, however, I am ecstatic. I know a number in my diocese personally, and they are men who are faithful to Mother Church, inspired by Pope John Paul II (and the Holy Spirit) determined to preach the Gospel and refute heresy- particularly the absurd ideas proposed by nuns that ignore a milleniium+ of Church teaching. Unlike protestant churches, the Catholic Church can't change things to go with society. Society goes to and from God- its going away from God right now- The Church is founded by Christ- we answer to the Trinity. not politicians.
The trinity? Now you explain that and make a bunch more of us atheists.
You are NEVER going to convince John that the Church has done anything wrong. There are Catholics like him that are so brainwashed that having an original thought is almost like having sex for him (it only happens once in a while). I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic Schools and got a really good education.
BUT, they try to RUN your life!!! And if you don't do as they say then they threaten you with excommunication. They are bullies and yes there are more than a few pedophiles in that group. You do NOT send someone that has molested a child to another part of the country and then NOT warn those people the evil that is walking amongst them. I guess that was the deal though, don't tell them and hope that the pedo keeps his filthy hands to himself.
Viva Cristo REy!!!!
John Hughes- you really eat that sh-it up don't you? What a crock of sh-it to say that's it not the churches' choice. Where does it say that in the bible? You really need to learn your history and understand why millions left the church since the Protestant Reformation. No where in the bible is there the concept of the 7 sins to be found. Don't give me this crap tht Jesus laid down the law...especially the part where Eve was conceive from Adam's rib. Learn your history, Eve was not Adam's first wife..Lilith was. Your naivete is unbelieveable. Just because men suppressed women throughout history does not mean that's what Jesus wanted.
Most of the books of the bible was written centuries after Jesus died. Hell, everyone has this preconceived notion that Jesus was a carpenter..ha..they didn't built houses out of woods then..more if anything he was a mason. There's evidence that Mary Magdalene was a fishmonger and not a prostitute! It was the Catholic church's ignorance, under the leadership of Pope Gregory in 591AD that propogated that Mary was a prostitute...that's almost 600 years after JC was crucified!
Wouldn't it be just awful if they had to sell some of the $Trillions$ in assets they have. I'm just all broke up over this!
The vatican is now financially bankrupt as well as morally bankrupt?
Hmmm, I wouldn't say the Holy See is the one morally bankrupt....
Viva Cristo Rey y el Papa Benedicto XVI!
Sale your art and feed the worlds poor you greedy pigs. God will judge you for your hoarding of treasures, you can bet on it.
Who do you think feeds the most hungry and cares for the sick more than the Catholic Church? @!$%#!
The USA feeds the most hungry and cares for the sick and doesn't try to convert you to stupidity as payment for it.
Yes, the most famous food stamps & Medicaid.
Better hope you never need it east to west. Funny how ya'll screaming about food stamps and it was the previous administration and their policies that made that happen!! The economy was going downt he tubes as ya boi was waving from the helicopter that flew him to the plane that took him back to his ranch in texas.
So true TiredVoter. Bush II and his rocket scientists filled their pockets with gold and left the nation so broke it will take several generations to recover from. Not just financially broke but ethically broke and our credibility broken with other nations over a bull@!$%# war to even the score for his daddy. His VP in charge, Cheney, got to test out his white paper on first strike which proved to be a total failure. Yes, Bush II left more than one legacy as he so wanted. He left us with so many history will record his as being the greatest failure in the history of this great nation.
The Mob's $19 million in the red?
I love reading the rants of the non believers! Go back to praying to Obama look where that has gotten you!
NOT nonbelievers - just not believers of the guy in the funny hat and dress.
ssmike, you're silly! nonbelievers don't pray to your god, why would they (I) pray to a person? Think before you type!
I think it was your gop/god, little george bush, that started the financial give aways and had a Clinton surplus that he went into the red.
Blame Obama for some, but not all. Think it is still economically bad, think about how much worse it would be if he would have listened to the gop (god-orphaned-pricks) and not bailed out GM. The ripple-effect would have been a tsunami.
"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable."
"Theology is the effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing." H.L. Menken
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Neitzsche
It is amazing isn't it. And then they act like it was God's will. It will never cease to amaze me how low life can vindicate wrong doings even to this time in history. I can recall when the Catholic Church in Canada published a written apology to the First Nations of Canada and the Vatican blew a gasket over it. Apology for death, mayhem, sexual abuse and physical abuse at the hands of priests and nuns. Have you heard of one from the Vatican? Makes me wonder just what kind of religious fanatics these people are.
you guys should stop wasting your money contributing to the Catholic Church...
really piss it away and contribute it to the Mormons.
I will gladly give my money to the Catholic Church. All of your attacks show a definite lack of Christian charity. May God forgive you all.
Linda M-311663: You're an idiot and a fake believer. If you were a real believer and follower of Christ than you would have nothing to do with the Catholic Church. Also, since you're so concerned about God - let me ask you how you think your God would feel about you putting a false idol (aka the Church) before Him? I hope you like fire.
Linda girl Charity has nothing do with Christianity. I am an atheist and raise money for MS, children with cancer and various other local causes. My charity actually goes to help people and /or contributes to the common good. Yours goes to support a corrupt organization and/or buy a guy thousands of miles away a new dress or funny hat. Which do you think does more real good?
Lol yeah, fire. Because everyone who does bad stuff goes to hell. Let's just dig a hole into the bowels of the Earth and drop everyone in it that doesn't believe. Or better yet we can toss everyone into a volcano, grovel on our knees and raise our hands in the air like a bunch of idiots and beg god for forgiveness and to spare us. Like a bunch of primitive, stone age Hawaiian natives.
Of course, now the "church" is going to beg the people it already stomped on and brainwashed for "charitable donations" in an attempt to lower its debt. Because god needs more money all the time in order for him to love you. All knowing, all powerful and all wise but can't seem to handle money. The money goes to his "voice on Earth" to live in luxury.
I think, in this struggling economy, a city ONLY 19 million in the red...is in an enviable position.