Rare, exotic, and endangered sea creatures and the saving of this species or any other for these people is NOT a priority. It is all about human survival there. And human survival means the obtaining of money to sustain them and their families. Ignorance yes and to an extreme degree. Even so, they do not gain from this action they simply do not know any better.

This was inexcusable. Sea Turtles are fantastic creatures!

That's what you get with people down there with only a 5th grade education. But, the 5th grade teacher forgot to teach them about their own sea life, like the turtles.

The article says they were trying to prevent erosion of the beach and a local eco-tourist hotel. That hotel EXISTS there BECAUSE people come to watch the turtles!!

If the river is eroding the beach, the agreement should have been to wait until nesting season is over, then dredge sand closer to the shore to make the beach larger. If diverting the river was decided, again the agreement should have been to wait until nesting season was over!!

Why should they? They would lose precious dollars if they waited. People can be so good...so awesome to each other and everything around them, then there are those that are just dumbasses...the ones in charge should have made sure this didn't happen...it's not like they never knew what goes on in their own neighborhood. And if those iidiots were from out of the area, then those that lived there could have explained it ion simple terms...

It's called communication...what a freaking waste of life...

The Island can kiss THAT group's tourist $$$ bye bye.

Very sad all around,

Mistake or intentional--doesn't really matter. Either way, the turtles are being pushed to the edge. I hope we can catch 'em before they fall off.

sage22, stay on TOPIC instead of spewing specious diatribes. I'm betting you believe Jesus was a white guy with blue eyes too.

I am aware that some people have very limited education when it comes to other countries but World Travel your name does you no justice. Trinidad is a very educated country. Over 98% of the population are literate. They also are the richest country in the Caribbean. It is one of the most educated countries in the WORLD. So please get your facts strait.

Sage - stow it and take that somewhere else. Doesn't even have anything to do with the article. Geez

Anyways. Very sad in deed. Someone needs to answer for this. A complete and total F up. What a shame. We continue to do our part to screw up the planet and kill off amazing species like this turtle. I agree Amanda, why could they not wait? Unless I'm missing something here.

At any rate, hope this doesn't result in too much of a setback for these turtles and that they can recover from this. I hope we learn from it as well.

It is time

Trinidad, Shminidad. If as you say they are so frigging educated there, there's even LESS reason to excuse this criminal destruction of the endangered species of our planet: Who never did anything to any of us!!!Too many @!$%#ing people, too much @!$%#ing greed. Don't blame "lack of education," blame sheer greed. Those bastards knew exactlyu what they were doing. At least the ones who were supposedly in charge did. The company that did this should be fined, big time....to the point of bankruptcy as far as I'm concerned. Then require the CEO to do community service cleaning cages and animal habitat areas of feces, urine and whatnbot in the hottest time of the year in, Trinidad.

Travis E..... Tourism is the top income earner for these islands. If government officials and contractors are insensitive to where their country's largest source of income comes from they are supremely negligent.

To you it may just be a few broken eggs but the bad publicity this will generate could put a big dent in their prime industry and a little bad publicity is by far more damaging than tons of good publicity can repair. Judging from the carcasses of the hatchlings they could've waited a week and demolished the beach with none of these repercussions.

Sage22 - In case you hadn't noticed humans are not an endangered species; not by all the wars being waged, not by famine or disease and not even by all the guns owned and used by private citizens and certainly not by family planning and contraception. You just prove how narrow minded and out of touch fanatics are.

YELDARB27

Rare, exotic, and endangered sea creatures and the saving of this species or any other for these people is NOT a priority. It is all about human survival there. And human survival means the obtaining of money to sustain them and their families. Ignorance yes and to an extreme degree. Even so, they do not gain from this action they simply do not know any better.

They "do not know any better"? Really? And the saving of the very species of sea turtle all those tourists went there to see is "not a priority"? Again, REALLY? Bubba, the saving of ALL species that the tourists go there to see is a priority for Trinidad, whether you want to admit it or not. Without the eco-tourism dollars spent by all those thousands of eco-tourists every year, Trinidad would be just another back-water Caribbean island, and at least THEY know it!

Know, Yeldarb27, how about you stop polluting your own backyard with all the car exhaust from your own high-priced SUV? After all, you apparently "know better".

Lockandkey,

Literacy does not equal education. Education does not equal wisdom. This was beyond error, in that apparently the work was not planned, of much greater scope than neccesary and continued even after the damage was discovered.

For all those who decry big government bureaucracy, this incident was a small government blunder/crime caused by the decision of a low level individual or group with no supervision. Exactly what those "damned" environment findings are supposed to prevent in this country.

Notsojingo,

No, Trinidad can kiss of not only that group's future tourism dollars, but that of all their friends and friends of friends.

all the money made on this travesty should be donated to the turtles

For the Hotel and the People responsible. Make them run (sponsor) a habitat for the turtles. With some sort of incubator, Or another way to get more hatching's out onto the ocean. It is done with some bird species. I wonder if it is possible with Sea Turtles.

Andrew-2169556

Sage22 - In case you hadn't noticed humans are not an endangered species; not by all the wars being waged, not by famine or disease and not even by all the guns owned and used by private citizens and certainly not by family planning and contraception. You just prove how narrow minded and out of touch fanatics are.

Yes, fanatics can be very out of touch and narrow minded. You got it right when you included wars, famine and disease -- but not when you included guns owned/used by private citizens. You got that only partially right.

You would have been better off by including MURDER (i.e., the illegal ending of another person's life by use of a gun, knife, poison, etc), not just the ownership/use of guns by private citizens.

Sage99, all those babies killed and we STILL have a dangerous surplus of humans. Come talk to me when we abort about 6 billion. ;-)

If 98% of the people of Trinidad are literate that's every bit as good as here in the U.S. I'm sure more than 2% of our people are illiterate and that doesn't stop a good many of them from posting right here.

Phil-3222406, you "pro-lifers" only care about the fetus. Once he or she is born, to heck with them, right? Let's vote against anything that could help these poor children once they're out of the womb, correct? Plus, I'm sure you and you're family have adopted multitudes of kids - I mean, there's absolutely no need for orphanages these days 'cause every child brought into this world has a loving home. We take care of even the poorest of children. Additionally, let's make sure that the offspring of rapists are brought into this world, too. Their mothers will love them just the same.

"Pro-life" my patoot.

Millions fetuses killed by decision of millions of people who actually think it through and make decisions. However, 20k turtle eggs are killed because the neglect of the few in the name of profits.

Phil-3222496

This is sad but the turtles will be ok. Quite a few species have been considered 'extinct' but then have been found elsewhere. Aren't we finding new species on a regular basis as well?

Just because one beach gets dozed doesn't mean it's curtains for an entire species.

Oh you have some actual PROOF of that, I suppose...... I remember how in World History class in high school, the thinking that led directly to the EXTINCTION of the dodo: "Oh, there's so freakin' many of 'em, we could never in a thousand years kill 'em all!" Same with the passenger pigeon, and HUNDREDS of other species that are now EXTINCT.

Hey, bubba, the planet can get along just fine without us humans -- but us humans depend on the entire planet for OUR continued survival.

Phil-3222496 Which is more sadistic. Ending a early pregnancy. Basically killing an egg and a sperm. The egg part happens naturally every month. And for most men the sperm part at least once a weekor more.

Or Making a woman Carry a child she does not want (maybe due to RAPE). Then placing that child as a ward of the state. And possibly into foster care. Or worse in a home with a parent that sits on welfare for years. While hating the child for so called (ruining their life)

And sentencing a child to a life unwanted by its Parents. All for the name of what Religion?

Now back to topic lol

Very sad for the turtles. I guess this is part of the reason that in the United States we require permits for excavating.

This is sad but the turtles will be ok. Quite a few species have been considered 'extinct' but then have been found elsewhere. Aren't we finding new species on a regular basis as well?

It's more accurate to say we're identifying new species, not finding. The animals have already been there, but getting to their habitats or differentiating them from other animals has been the obstacle.

Some species of animal have semi-fragile lifecycles. In the turtles case, the small number of breeding grounds, the migration patterns, the number that are lost to predation, the number of years before the young can start reproducing on their own, and the hunting by humans make recovery slow and difficult. Yes, they can recover from this, but make no mistake, it is a heavy blow.

I am in no way excusing the actions. I feel just as bad as the rest of you do. I do however do not think it is right to portray this country in an uneducated manner.

We in the US have done a lot to destroy our precious oceans and it's inhabitants as well.

Here's a thought: Fine the hotel that ordered the demolition and set up a sanctuary like the one in the Grand Cayman, which would in turn become a viable opportunity to charge tourists an entrance fee to watch the turtle eggs hatch.

Time to use Predator Drones for something useful...

Phil-3222496; When you care equally as much for ALL of your God's creatures as you do for an "unborn human baby" (a non-viable fetus, actually a PARASITE that would die outside the womb anyway), as well as the hundreds of millions of of children who need homes NOW (you know what I mean, the kids who have been waiting to be adopted but are just "too old" to be adopted -- because they are no longer babies but are now in their teens) then perhaps more people would listen to what you have to say.

How about YOU open your home to all those unwanted kids, Phil. Yes, even the ones that are "too old". Or is a teenager in need of a home just not "cute enough" for you to care about?

They "do not know any better"? Really? And the saving of the very species of sea turtle all those tourists went there to see is "not a priority"? Again, REALLY? Bubba, the saving of ALL species that the tourists go there to see is a priority for Trinidad, whether you want to admit it or not. Without the eco-tourism dollars spent by all those thousands of eco-tourists every year, Trinidad would be just another back-water Caribbean island, and at least THEY know it!

Somewhat right on Agnon. The biggest thing Mt Plaisir Estate Hotel has going for it is Location, Location and Location. This is due to the Hotel being right on the beach where the turtles lay their eggs. I had been To Trinadad and Tobago quite a few years back, it is a beautiful place with many pleasant people. What has happened to cause much harm to Mt Plaiser's economics but I hope for the turtles sake they just come back to lay their eggs again. I also hope that maybe a group can help raise the 500 or so that were saved for a little bit, mainly just to increase their chances of survival.

You just wonder how people can be so stupid, maybe the contractor also owns a different hotel down the beach where the turtles may be undisturbed and is trying to steer business his way. Sea turtles are so awesome and I have had to privilege to dive with them several times-leatherback off Trinidad, the many species off Florida and the Gulf, Green Sea Turtles off Maui and turtles elsewhere. They are so docile and graceful. I hope they can rebound from this heinous act or mistake

Jensen-576947

Time to use Predator Drones for something useful...

Such as a hit on the house(s) owned by the CEO of the corporation that was hired to do the work? Yeah, I would support that.

i don't know who i despise more, people who treat non human creatures like they're unfeeling objects or fetus huggers, most of whom never have or will adopt an unwanted kid . what does roe v wade have to do with this barbaric tragedy ? there are 6 billion + humans . has roe v wade made us endangered ?

It is outrageous and sad.

Sage-the discussion was about turtles, not your political point of view on issue that doesn't even belong in this section. Stupid

fishman-1985527: Yeah...yeah...yeah...enough of the travel log...one-percenter

Blue panther said:

Why should they? They would lose precious dollars if they waited.

No, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have lost ANYTHING. The tourists are there to watch the turtles hatch! Last I heard, people aren't even allowed to walk on the beach while the turtles' nests are in place! They lost money by not waiting-- tourists and biologists/researchers will now leave because with the bulk of the nests gone there's no point in staying around, and money that would have gone to tourism, to the local economy in food and living expenses from those who would have stayed through hatching season is gone!

The development company who did this shot their own government in the foot. The government should fine them heavily for lost revenue and yank their business license--they lost a lot of money which they wouldn't have lost if the development company HAD. JUST. WAITED!!!

Don't tell me those bulldozer operators didn't see these big round white spherical eggs pop out of the sand when they started digging!!!!How could you NOT have seen them!? And I think there are signs around the beach warning people it's a turtle nesting ground?

How do you miss THAT MANY CLUES!?

Agnon Memavia FacebookPhil-3222496; When you care equally as much for ALL of your God's creatures as you do for an "unborn human baby" (a non-viable fetus, actually a PARASITE that would die outside the womb anyway)

Hey, umm, since when does a parasite mature to be born and live outside the host, and, mature further to support your ass physically and financially when you get old?

When you have found a parasite that can do that, let me know.

those responsible should be required to eat what they killed.

And to think all of this could have been avoided had they simply waited until the hatchlings were safely out to sea.

One word greed! they don't get paid for the job until its done, they wanted a check so screw the turtles.

All areas of the world should have strict laws about endangered species with even more strict penalties. I bet if they had a $1000 fine per turtle they would have waited!

I was very privileged to be able to accompany a group in Florida to see the turtles laying their eggs. Some of the rules were NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY, NEVER WALK IN FRONT OF TURTLE, NO WHITE FLASHLIGHTS. There were other rules, though I don't recall them now. This was mostly for kids and they did get front row "seating" so to speak. We did get to see a turtle laying her eggs and it was absolutely one of the most wonderful things I have ever seen. The eggs are pretty good-sized and how those operators missed them are beyond me. There were also signs warning people about the nesting season and the financial penalties for disturbing any turtle or its nest.

we'll spend big bucks saving a creature that many of the people of the world would simply eat. the whale swam to shore to die but we "save it". people starve in a third of the world while we cry about being too fat.we buy bacon flavored treats for FiFi to eat before she licks her arse (does she care about taste as we understand it??) we send steaks back because they're over cooked (i said RARE!) the people a building areas for you rich people to vacation and trickle a coin dowmn on them and their economy. reality sucks go have a martini and suck it up (shaken not stired).

rosie0

Here's a thought: Fine the hotel that ordered the demolition and set up a sanctuary like the one in the Grand Cayman, which would in turn become a viable opportunity to charge tourists an entrance fee to watch the turtle eggs hatch.

The hotel was in no way responsible for this as they profit from tourists coming in to watch the turtles hatch. The hotel was just as shocked as everyone else when the crews were told to do the work without any supervision and witnessed the destruction of the nests. It's the higher ups of the crew who should put forth that money as they failed to make sure someone was out there from one of the conservation groups to be sure the crews did not go too far past where the work was to be done. These nesting sites are all buried under the sand. Unless you know what you are looking for, most people don't recognize the areas of beach that houses the eggs. All you are looking at is a sandy beach front of a river.

"Hey, umm, since when does a parasite mature to be born and live outside the host? When you have found a parasite that can do that, let me know."~Phil

I found him...........his name is Mitt Romney

I now have a case of the sads.

"I just notices that Sages comment has been deleted entirely. I'm sure this one will be too."~ConservativeNotRepublican

One can only hope

Let's do some simple math. 20,000 eggs destroyed, 500 saved, normal survival rate 1%. I'd say the turtles come out ahead on this one if most of those 500 survive.

Poor turtles and hte life and choice. Pro choice is the only way to go. Sure we would love for people to use contraceptives but they don't. In a world whose population is seven billion We can;t be doing this whole rabbitt routine. And telling people what the ycan and cannot do is wrong. People should have a choice whether or not to abort. It's not someone making you do it or not. It gives you a choice which is great. It is up to you to choose. And there is no sanctity of life, we made it up. You know why, we're alive. So yes pro choice. It is the only choice for rational mature individuals wh ovalue other peoples privacy not to butt in and say what they should or not.

Amanda, your posts are those of someone with common sense. I live in South Florida and we take all precautions to protect the turtles. I mean there are warnings everywhere, flags, and fines/penalties for people that don't heed the warnings. What a heart breaking story of stupidity of the highest nature. Yes they could have waited to bulldoze.

The most remarkable thing I got from this article is the apparent Trinidadians' proclivity for understatement!

One would think that everyone interviewed about this incident, even the sea turtle protection environmentalists, were all zoned-out on Jamaican Rum! Such calm in the wake of an endangered species disaster is ... disquieting.

Without outrage followed by substantial punitive actions and fines against those responsible, what keeps this from happening again the next time someone needs an inconvenience done away with and someone else is willing to help in exchange for a quick buck?

Who was driving ? Ayn Rand ?

Phil,

that is why we need health care reform, so those people that cannot afford to have such procedures, like abortion, done can. There is nothing sacred about a fetus. All it is, is a growth of cells. There is no potential in it until it is born.

It may sound harsh to you but people need to stop putting the fetus on a pedestal. If the Mother does not want to have the child and it is before 22 weeks in the pregnancy no one should be able to stop her. It is her body, her life, her choice. She then lives with the consequences for that choice (there can be consequences and there may not be. For example her boy friend/husband may leave her if he did not want her to abort).

At no point before that 22 week mark should anyone: not a politician, not some religious hack, not some special interests group, be able to tell her otherwise. Personal freedoms should come first before making the Government tell you have you can and cannot do with your body. Republicans who want abortion laws are big Government Republicans, as are those Democrats who want them as well. Same with same-sex marriage.

If Republicans were really about less Government they would be against these laws in their entirety. The fact that they are not just points out that the "Small Government" slogan is a bold faced lie; small where it counts and big where it doesn't, leaving a dysfunctional entity that cannot provide what it needs to where it needs to.

*Hangs head in shame* We, (human beings) are the scourge of the Earth..... We contaminate the air, water and ground...what we do not kill outright, we drive into extinction, either through greed or stupidity. We are the cockroaches of mammals.

Conservativenotrepublican

Since I was a little girl, I have always been fascinated by turtles. This is a sad story because innocent creatures were destroyed. It also is sad because, those involved with the demise of these turtles are innocent too. Frankly "Conservative" I don't understand your outrage at liberals. This incident did not occur on American soil. No Democrats or Republicans were involved. Thank God! What a quagmire that would be. This site would be inundated with hate filled comments.

Oh, it already is!

I must say that some of you bloggers should really research the island of Trinidad before you all comment.

Trinidad has the highest literacy rate in the English-speaking Caribbean, and tourism is NOT the "bread and butter" of the island. As a matter of fact, Trinidad is mainly known for its natural gas and oil reserves, in addition to methanol and aluminum plants.

Please do some research before you start typing utter nonsense.

Nonetheless, hundreds of turtles were saved, and the ones that perished will be missed.

Andrew -

Tourism is not in the top 5 industries in Trinidad-Tobago. (might be higher in Tobago) Energy is #1. Doesn't hurt ot check your facts before you post.

@Vivian,

" ...not only decent hard working US Americans, but now sea turtles are victims of OBAMUNISM Impeach now, wake up people!!"

What the ....?

Vivian, if you are being sarcastic, or making social satire, help us by using a smiley face or wink icon. Otherwise we are going to read something like that and just think you are a serious whackadoodle! Understand?

I'm just sayin' ...

Vivian, ConservativeNOTRepublican...seriously...stop trolling.

Vivian, ConservativeNOTRepublican...seriously...stop trolling.

So sad and so sickening. When are we going to realize that we are not the only species inhabiting the planet. Since we are considered to be at the top of the pyramid, you would think that we would have more responsibility and compassion.

Vivian - You are kidding, right?! If you are - not too funny, if you aren't, you are crazy.

Primates ... nothing but primates.

Whoops!

The article says about 500 were saved. I don't know much about this species or why less than 1% survive to adulthood, but are there any kind of measures they can take with the 500 saved to help them survive to "offset" the destruction of the others?

Vivian - I am not an Obama supporter in any way, but... I really don't see how you can blame this on him or any of his policies.

Isn't it simple ? If you don't want or believe in abortions ..don't get one ! But don't expect others to have to do as you say or do ! They haven't taken away all of our freedoms yet ! Freedom of choice !!

What the $%er $#k! Whoever did this better get chewed on by sea turtle demons in hell for the rest of eternity.

Seriously.....20,000 eh? Was someone counting scrambled eggs and little turtle carcasses? It's an unfortunate event, but with only a 1% survival rate to adulthood, I think we can add this in with the 99% mortality rate. Certainly not newsworthy. Just another reason for some liberal tree-hugging enviro-Nazi to bust someones balls.....

Didn't they say they saved 500 of the "20,000? That is a survival rate of 2.5%. One might conclude that getting "ran over" increased the turtle's survival numbers and was therefore GOOD for the turtle population..... hmmmmm?

P.S. don't collapse my comment.......your "opinion" is no more valuable than mine......

Judy The Ornery: You may not believe this, but I love turtles as well as all animals. We have two dogs, a cat, and two llama's.

I also agree this was a very sad story. Indeed, I believe that everyone of those eggs was absolutely a turtle and it is a crying shame what happened. I wish it hadn't happened and I hope they take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But, beyond that, the fact that it didn't happen in this country in no way absolves the comparrison of a turtle egg to a human, or the fact that liberals decry the turtle egg destruction and think little of the human destruction based only on population numbers.

I'll also say that I wasn't the one who started the comparison, but, once it was introduced, and a sufficient number had responded, then I had no problem putting my two cents in as well.

I believe in freedom of speech. But since the comment that started the comparison was not only collapsed but deleted entirely, I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying someone apparently doesn't

That comment by Sage 22 had absolutely NOTHING offensive in it. NOTHING...unless of course you call the facts of what she / he said offensive. There was no name calling, no personal attack, no foul language or anything of the type....but yet it was deleted. I'll leave you to surmise as to why.

I just noticed where those "tolerant, open minded" liberals just collapsed my previous two comments on this thread. No surprise there. To those who collapsed the comments, as I predicted you would, thanks for proving my point about liberals being fascists.

ConservativeNotRepublican,

Aren't you at your imit of red herrings for today? So far, most of the statements I've
heard from the you on this, or almost any other subject, have all the
intellectual honesty of an elementary school playground taunt.

marklepew: I would suggest then that you just ignore my posts. The name of every poster is certainly large enough on the screen that you should have no trouble seeing it beforehand, and thus will save yourself the time of reading them.

But, I did notice the irony of you calling my posts red herrings without the guts to take on even one of the points I made. I mean really marklepew, if you're so intellectually superior to me, then surely you can tell me why a turtle egg is a turtle in the liberal world, (even though it has not hatched, and is thus "unborn")...but somehow a human baby in the womb is not a baby. That is exactly the type of logic that those "tolerant, open minded" liberals can't stand.

In fact, they couldn't stand it so badly, that they were willing to prove themselves fascists, as I predicted in the post itself, in their effort to prevent someone else from reading the post. Tolerant? Open minded?...ROTFLMAO!

So skippy, you show me how you logically get around that one and we'll go from there, because that will be just getting this party started. I mean it should be an absolute snap for you given that it's a red herring and all, not to mention your implied intellectual superiority.

johnm: Well, riddle me this Batman, why is it when it comes to abortion, "it's my body" (even though there are TWO bodies involved and one of them does NOT belong to the mother)

But, when it comes to Obamacare, suddenly it's not my body anymore, and I must comply with what the state mandates.

It's my body, and I'll be damned if some liberal is going to tell me they have the right to kill a baby, but that I have to go buy health insurance.

(Liberals go absolutley ape sh!t when their own logic is used against them)

@marklepew

"ConservativeNotRepublican,

Aren't you at your imit of red herrings for today? So far, most of the statements I've
heard from the you on this, or almost any other subject, have all the
intellectual honesty of an elementary school playground taunt."

Hi 'marklepew.' I share your reaction to the posts by ....'you know who.' So let me share a nifty little trick with you -- if you are not already aware of it -- which will make your time on Newsvine infinitely more enjoyable and civil.

If you look in the lower right hand corner of any one of his posts you will find a little exclamation mark. If you click on that exclamation mark you will get a pop-up menu. If you then click the bottom choice "Ignore this author", from that point forward all of his posts will be automatically collapsed on your screen and therefore easy to ignore.

And the best part is that his insults and taunts and condescending responses to your own posts will be invisible to you. This is one example of where the old idiom "What you don't see can't hurt you" actually has validity.

This guy seems to thrive on playground taunts and being deliberately condescending (probably just to stir things up). Ignoring him is probably the best way of neutering him.

Take it from me, after selecting the "Ignore ..." option for this guy and about two dozen of the other worst repeat offenders on Newsvine, I find that life is much sweeter during my time on-line.

I hope this helps you a bit?

Robert in Oregon: I guess you won't see this since you implied that you ignore my posts, but if you did, you would have seen I had already made that suggestion to marklepew myself in the very first sentence at post #1.82.

I just didn't give the mechanics of how to do it permanently as you did.

I make no bones about it: I hate the tenets of modern day, post FDR liberalism, with a burning passion. It is an ideology based on nothing buy lies, delusion and hypocrisy. And of course you share his sentiment; most liberals will when faced with the truth that they can't accept.

But hey, why am I bothering, you won't be reading this anyway.

to learn our lesson for future events.

We can only hope.

ConservativeNotRepubby,

So you want me to take on your point? Your contextomy is a logical fallacy and I won't fall for your ploy. It is a obvious straw man argument. Let me illustrate:

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. Arguments based on this fallacy typically take two forms. As a straw man argument, which is frequently found in politics, it involves quoting an opponent out of context in order to misrepresent their position (typically to make it seem more simplistic or extreme) in order to make it easier to refute. The article was about destruction of a natural habitat and you ran with that to make your "counter point" that liberals love turtles but hate babies because some may support pro choice options. Quite a reach and not so intellectual, which you seem to so desperately strive for.

You seem a little obsessed with your repeated use of the term liberal / fascist. If you had a modicum of intelligence you would understand the oxymoron, but then I give you too much credit. If liberals bother you so much you might watch, Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood...... both more suited to your intellectual abilities and temperament.

'marklepew' wrote:

"ConservativeNotRepubby,

..... If you had a modicum of intelligence you would understand the oxymoron, but then I give you too much credit. If liberals bother you so much you might watch, Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood...... both more suited to your intellectual abilities and temperament."

NOOOOOOO!!! :-O

'Marklepew', I LOVE Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood! Don't send him there!!! What did those nice folks ever do to you, for you to wish such a thing on them? Big Bird would molt! Elmo would stop giggling! I mean, really, ....isn't Oscar grouchy enough already?

Sending such a person to Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, well, .... that would be tantamount to turning Bedford Falls into Pottersville!!!

( HA! ;-)

Robert,

You are correct, he might even accuse cookie monster that he is just a liberal / fascist. After all you must be a commie if you like cookies.........they both start with the same letter. Just when you think that conservatives can't get anymore ridiculous........they do.

marklepew:

The article was about destruction of a natural habitat and you ran with that to make your "counter point" that liberals love turtles but hate babies....

Wrong. What I said was:

tell me why a turtle egg is a turtle in the liberal world, (even though it has not hatched, and is thus "unborn")...but somehow a human baby in the womb is not a baby. That is exactly the type of logic that those "tolerant, open minded" liberals can't stand.

And so in response, you give me a bunch of pseudo intellectual blather about straw man arguments. But that's not surprising, because I'm sure you can't give me a logical reasoned answer as to why liberals believe the turtle eggs to be turtles, but somehow, the baby in the womb is not a baby. Tell me what the difference is?

That's the liberal logic I want you to address.

Nice try skippy, but I've still got your a$$ cornered with logic and reason. And the fact that my posts, were deleted shows the fascist element of the left. The collapse speaks for itself whether you have the intellectual capacity to grasp it or not.

Also prolife is just anti woman

After all that they still wont answer CnR's question Hmm Imagine that. I would like to hear their answer also.

roc1960: But they're absolute masters at deflection and avoiding the questions. All I want is a simple answer. Either the turtle eggs are just eggs, or they are turtles. The fact that they are an endangered species has absolutely no bearing on whether the creature inside is a turtle or not. It either is or isn't.

If marklepew says it's not a turtle, then he's being consistent. But that won't account for the millions of other liberals who will scream about killing the turtles, even though they have NOT been born yet, while continuing to put forth their delusional logic that the child in the womb is not a baby for the exact same reason.

OH, Thank You.

"And so in response, you give me a bunch of pseudo intellectual blather about straw man arguments"~CnR

In short are you saying you didn't understand the reply to your poor attempt at correlating the two different arguments?

Let me ask you a question that is comparable that will also test your own truthfulness / hypocrisy:

How do you feel about Mitt's business venture with Stericycle? I imagine you are one of those Christians against pro choice options. How does it sit with you that your candidate owns a company that provides services for companies that perform abortions? I have to wonder about the convictions of the Evangelicals: is voting for Romney more important than adhering to their own anti-abortion/Christian values? Do you plan on voting for Mitt knowing this? Well, skippy, now is your chance to look smart and powerful. On a side note I would recommend you not tout your intellectual capacity when making such a spurious argument.

"Most Americans have not heard of the company named Stericycle, but anti-abortion groups have. You see, Stericycle is a company that disposes medical-waste including aborted fetuses collected from family planning clinics. However distasteful, most rational people would understand that cleaning up and disposing medical-waste is a service that must be provided. My issue is not with Stericycle for providing the service. The problem here is that during the Republican primaries, Romney could not allow voters to know that he was engaged in buying a company for 75 million dollars that disposed aborted fetuses. So Romney LIED. He said that he didn't have anything to do with Stericycle; Romney said it didn't happen on his watch. Unfortunately for Willard, the Securities and Exchange Commission listed Mitt Romney as an active participant on the management team and one transaction document was actually signed by Romney. The SEC reported that Mitt remained in a decision-making role even during his part-time leave of absence.

There are some real issues in this story. Not only did Willard show cowardliness by not revealing his role in the Stericycle acquisition, he was dishonest by claiming he had nothing to do with the decision. This man simply cannot be trusted. Perhaps a more important issue has to do with Romney's values. Romney has flip-flopped on abortion issues, but he does not flip-flop when it comes to making money. In the Romney world making money is far more important than the ethics around
abortion."~Pat in B

STILL didnt answer the question WHY? Hmmm. Just wondering what the answer would be.

marklepew: Unlike you, I'm going to answer your question directly. 1. I think Romney's involvement in that company is very hypocritical. 2. I haven't voted for a single Republican in the last 2 national elections, and I have never been a Romney supporter. 3. In November, I will be doing a write in for Allen West.

Now, you see how easy that was for me to do. It's because I know what I believe and why I believe it. Did you really think I was going to defend Romney? I wouldn't vote for him if you paid me.

Contrast that with yet another deflection of yours to the issue of Romney.

Just answer the question marlepew: Is the creature inside that turtle egg a turtle, or isn't it? You see marklepew, I'm pretty that you believe that entity inside that egg is indeed a turtle, but you can't come up with a logical answer as to why that is, and then claim, as liberals do, that the child inside the mother's womb is not a baby. And in the final analysis, it really doesn't matter so much what your personal view might be, because it's the collective belief of liberalism as a whole that tells the real story. And that narrative goes that the turtle egg is absolutely a turtle, but the child in the human mother's womb is not a baby. It is that inconsistency that crumbles the facade of liberalism every time.

And that's what makes liberals look so foolish: They have to constantly invent and re-invent new rules to support their position in every situation. Nothing is consistent or logical in the liberal mind. Everything must have it's own set of rules, because as the turtle / baby comparison points out so plainly, the liberal can not logically claim one is, but the other isn't.

If you say no, it isn't a turtle, then the discussion is over, and you will have proved that you are consistent.

You'll still be wrong, but at least you'll be consistently wrong. And by the way, do you remember this comment:

have all the intellectual honesty of an elementary school playground taunt.

If you'll go back and look, you're the one who brought up implied intellectual superiority, not me. But since you did, I'll just say I don't think I have anything to fear from you on that front.

Hell, I can't even get you to answer a simple question.

roc1960: But he did a great job talking about Romney ;-D

Fourth paragraph should have read "I'm pretty sure". I inadvertently left out the word sure.

lots of parasite mature and leave their host- like bot fly larvae

Thanks for the reply CnR,

I believe it is a turtle and that babies are viable at conception so as you can see I don't agree with pro choice.... personally. I also don't believe in forcing my choice on others so while I don't advocate abortion I also don't deny others their freedom of choice. I think quite a few liberals and conservatives can flex on certain issues, while others take a hard party line. I don't think it accurate to paint in such broad strokes as your blanket statements about liberals all having the same mind set. I can see this particular issue is important to you and probably one of the core values that makes you vote as you do. Have a good day............I glad to see we have found common ground, at least about Romney.

Thanks Guys, and I think aggrevatedofficeworker needs to clean their office.

Environmentalists do tend (imo) to hold corporations to a higher standard. When the BP spill occurred, their (understandable) outrage had no bound. What I recall most was Green Peace saying what BP did was bad, but what we (the public) did to the gulf shore, and sea life and environment, was much much worse.....we fish it unsustainably, build communities, erode the shoreline, pollute it with our human (not industrial() effluents, then point to a corporation taking risk to give us the cheap oil we crave, and call them criminals.

"we have met the enemy, and the enemy is us"

When everything is privately owned you can say goodbye to national parks and public lands too...not the solution.

Private ownership is definitely not the answer. Millions of dollars pour in each year through hunters, conservationists, and public land users that would be out the window if animals were privately owned.

Yanny, seriously...WTF???? That has to be one of the most uncalled for comments I've ever read on these threads. And I've read some stupid sh!t from some stupid people. Wow. Just wow.

Lol obviously you misunderstood my satire. Notice who I'm responding to.

Or maybe I am on to something...perhaps if I owned most of the people here it would ensure that they would be educated enough to stop being so idiotic.

Bull@!$%#. Most private property owners don't have any restraint over what the do to their own. I woould never trust a business or a corporation to "do the right thing" toward any innocent animal, habitat or employee. Because their bottoom line is profit, so stoip with your dishonest palaver and propaganda about how private property is the answer to everything. Yeah, and God told you to do it, right? Stop insulting our intelligence, and shut your trap. This is about stupidity and human greed, and I betcha there are a lot more people doing bad things to our planet because they own the private property natural treasures are on, than government. Your bull@!$%# about how "gubmint" screws up everything is transparent bull@!$%# to allow us to think we should trust the likes of the Koch brothers and Mittens Romney's cohorts to save the world and us in it...NOT. Not unless we are horses who can win a dressage event for him. No blue ribbon? Off to theglue factory you go. And that's the basic attitude of "private property" owning corporations and ceos everywheren/

I wonder how much of a good idea that would be when you get struck by Master's whip! Your frail body wouldnt be able to handle it. Shut your mouth until something intelligent comes out of it.

You moron. The turtles and anything owned by government are owned by "the public" that pays taxes to that government for services and other things that private property can't provide on its own for larege masses of people. LWe the people own the goddamned turtles, or more accuately, "they the trinidadians." Remains to be seen whether these rich, civilized (as some claim) people are all that interested in endangered leatherhead turtles...but wait!!!Tourist attraction brings dollars. Destroy the turtles, good-by tourist dollars. Let'sh ope that rings a bell in somebody's tiny little brain.

john

then point to a corporation taking risk

Smoking on an oil-rig is taking a risk. Ignoring safety equipment failures and not doing the job correctly IS criminal.

JEM-1989317

Can you imagine the outcry from environmentalists if a private corporation had done this?

....

The solution to tragedies is private ownership and the enforcement of property rights.
So long as the turtles are owned by nobody, they will be valued by nobody and will
eventually sent the way of the passenger pigeon.

Oh, really? So, according to your thinking BP, Exxon-Mobil and all those other corporations that have allowed their own privately-owned equipment fail due to negligent maintenance policies actually did what was best for them financially? Well, every time some yackoff allows their oil rig to "spill" oil or explode in a ball of fire, let alone allow the workers to get themselves hurt ON THE JOB, the big oil companies LOSE MONEY. If they don't care enough about their equipment and employees to make quadruple-damn-sure everything is safe and in proper working order, what the hell makes ya think they're gonna give a hatful of piss about some damned animal that won't even let itself be trained to work a wrench?

Here's a news flash for ya, bubba: Them turtles and other big-money eco-tourism attractions are the bread-and-butter of the Nation island of Trinidad, and allowing those turtles to to be killed like that -- especially right in front of all those tourists -- is a dead-sure way to make sure that the Government of Trinidad loses a lot of money. They can't take proper care of Public Property, what the flying frack makes ya think they would take better care of anything privately owned?

HarryBalsaki;

Yanni actually makes a VERY valid point. The reasoning (faulty as it is) is that "corporations will be sure to take excellent care of what they own". Well, if that is true, then corporations should take excellent care of the PEOPLE they own, too.

So let's bring back slavery. Hey, slaves were always well cared for and treated humanely, all because they were Private Property, right?

I was lucky enough to participate in a sea turtle hatching in Mexico a few years back. I held some of them and we all watched and cheered them on as they made their way into the ocean. They are so precious. What a shame!!!

Travis E.

At least the mistakes I made in life did not involve destroying the home and breeding grounds of an endangered specie. Maybe you had, but certainly not me. No, I am not an eco-nut, rather just a concerned citizen in a place called Earth that just received news of mass death caused by human error.

Tourism is NOT the Island Nation's even 3rd largest nor important Industry.

However, those turtles will be missed by the folks staying at the Ecohotel, and those depending on the wages keeping them happy, more than many posters here.

Thought it sounded like several here also have no idea about the Caribbean, so here ya go!

One of the wealthiest Caribbean Nation's

Trinidad and Tobago is one of the wealthiest and most developed nations in the Caribbean and is listed in the top 66 High Income countries in the world. In the Caribbean, it's the one of the richest countries, with a per capita GDP of USD $28,400 (2009). In November 2011, the OECD removed Trinidad and Tobago from its list of Developing Countries. Trinidad and Tobago has earned a reputation as an excellent investment site for international businesses and has one of the highest growth rates and per capita incomes in Latin America. Recent growth has been fueled by investments in liquefied natural gas (LNG), petrochemicals, and steel. Additional petrochemical, aluminum, and plastics projects are in various stages of planning. Trinidad and Tobago is the leading Caribbean producer of oil and gas, and its economy is heavily dependent upon these resources but it also supplies manufactured goods, notably food and beverages, as well as cement to the Caribbean region. Oil and gas account for about 40% of GDP and 80% of exports, but only 5% of employment.

Regional Financial Center

The country is also a regional financial center, and tourism is a growing sector, although it is not proportionately as important as in many other Caribbean islands. The economy benefits from a growing trade surplus. Economic growth reached 12.6% in 2006 and 5.5% in 2007 as prices for oil, petrochemicals, and LNG remained high, and as foreign direct investment continued to grow to support expanded capacity in the energy sector.

Trinidad and Tobago's infrastructure is adequate by regional standards. A major expansion of the Piarco International Airport in Trinidad, the country's main airport, was completed in 2001. There is an extensive network of paved roads, and utilities are fairly reliable in the cities. Some areas, however, especially rural districts, still suffer from water shortages. The government is addressing this problem with the construction of additional desalinization plants. Infrastructure improvement, especially rural roads and telephone service, drainage and sewerage, are among the government's budget priorities.

Economy of Trinidad and Tobago - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kevin, What about all those endangered bedbugs you tried to kill last night. How cruel is that? Would you be happier if all humans just died off, and let the sea turtles have the earth? It WAS an accident, and if not for the hotel built for eco-tourists the machinery would not be there to kill the turtle eggs, half of which at least would be eaten or destroyed anyway..

Agon

i don't know how the BP oil spill came into this but the same employees who get injured and or in that situation killed are the same ones who "pencil whip" inspections knowing the equipment is faulty only to make both their's and the company who employees them pockets fatter

Reminds me of the Joni Mitchell song "Big Yellow Taxi."

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

You can require a "methods statement" as part of the permitting process, unfortunately there is always the buggeration factor. That's why this sort of stuff always needs some sort of independent or government agency monitoring.

just give her a little time, and MOTHER NATURES bulldozers will arrive. payback really is a BITCH.

Chalk it up to "lesson learned"? Hoo boy, they'll lynch you for that around here! Don't you know anyone who isn't shedding tears of anger and shame and tearing their hair out over this is a cold-hearted evil-doer?

It is a shame, yes, and a preventable one, but the damage is done, it was unintentional, and we should learn from it. The bad press Trinidad's getting over this should serve as a deterrent.

Bringit - - sounds like this is acceptable to you

You are a moron

We sure will learn our lesson...

Kill the animals, clear the land, be surprised when extinction and desertification happens.

Yeah, we're the smartest creature on the planet.

"Like only 1 in 2000 survive anyway". Very profound! did you ever stop to think that is why they are an endangered species?! It is the very reason that we need to protect this and all species. Humans have caused the extinction of hundreds of different species, and continue to do so because of our greed and stupidity. People don't stop to think that we live in a very delicate eco-system.

Look what happens to us when we have to deal with major oil spills in the ocean. Some countries are killing off spcies of animals at an alarming rate, i.e. whales for instance, (they are only killed because thier meat and other items are considered delicacies. We have not needed any products from whales for decades.).

So for the species that we have left, we need to protect them carefully. I have swam in the open ocean with giant sea turtles and it is an amazing expierence! To be so close to something so majestic is quite an expierence. It is certainly too bad that the public is not educated more in regards to the dwindling population of these species and what can be done to help them before it is too late.

BringIt, they're NOT endangered because the ocean takes their lives. Humans ate their eggs, made soup of their flesh, caught and drowned them in nets and destroyed their nesting areas. We are responsible for their endangered numbers. How many other ignorant people are they who believe humans are innocent of destroying species after species of animal?

Read a book, take a class, look it up on the internet. The Dodo, the Passenger Pigeon, the Carolina Parakeet, Stellar's Sea Cow, they're gone forever and these are not dinosaurs. The Tasmanian Tiger went extinct last century along with the Ivory Billed Woodpecker.

Reason? Too many humans for the available resources. Human beings outnumber rats now.

Who looks around anymore? Just keep your eyes on the GPS screen and it'll tell you where to go.

Obviously you have never operated a bulldozer to know that by the time you see something like that it is way too late

Maybe if the tourists/environmental reptiles had stayed home, it would not have been necessary to build more hotel rooms.

If no one comes there and spends money the locals will just have to go back to eating turtle eggs. Be careful what you wish for. People are quick to cut off their nose to spite their face.

Trinidad is actually not a tourist island...surprise! They have resources that sustain the economy. So tourist boycotting the island is inconsequential.

Math is a challenging subject.

Before you jump on Bringit, do the math. If 1 in 2000 typically survive, then 20K eggs = 10 survivors. They saved 500 according to the article. It may be they just increased the chances for the whole hatch.

MPA

Before I jump on you. I would ask you, to check your math. I think the number, would be 100.

Unless they raise all 500 in captivity a lot of them are still going to die in the ocean.

very very true!! those poor babys had no chance!!!

: (

They need to be released and raised into the wild because of their migration patterns. They aren't born with a map in their heads. I don't think scientists are still quite certain how they manage it, but it is a learned behavior that we can't replicate in an aquarium.

That was the first word that came to my mind as well.

fines only make money for the ones accepting the money...it doesn't make those who are paying it do anything else different if the have the money to pay in the first place.

Just like the EPA...if I do something to devastate a river the EPA charges me millions in fines...I still do the same thing if I don't mind paying the money...

The government is always fining TVA, for some environmental bs, and TVA just raises the rates to take care of the fine.

This is Trinidad and Tobago, chances are that the contractor is a political contributor to the party in power thats why he got the contract. No one will be fined, no one will go to jail, and nothing will be done.

In fact the T&T government is saying that the report is false it wasnt 20,000 but a few hundred so its no big deal. That they did it to save human life.

Oh ya, and the private contractors doing the work are the epitome of responsibility. And the private hotel paying the bill was just a pawn. That's right: Corporations always do the right thing when left to their own devices. Not. That's right, all the polluted water supplies, the sick children, the damaged ecosystems that corporations caused are the fault of government. Teabaggers are so hatefully and willfully ignorant. If government wasn't doing something, things would be so much worse. Corporations could care less if they poison our children. Corporations could care less about the turtles. Corporations could care less about your health, your pension, your life.

Idiots... TOTAL, F'ing IDIOTS!!!!!! Their carelessness is absolutely unpardonable and speaks VERY POORLY for the a-hole country of Trinidad.