E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSS
Carlos Barria / Reuters
A demonstrator smashes a car window during a protest against an industrial waste pipeline under construction in front of the local government building in Qidong, Jiangsu Province on Saturday.
QIDONG, China -- Angry demonstrators occupied a government office in eastern China on Saturday, destroying computers and overturning cars in a violent protest against an industrial waste pipeline they said would poison their coastal waters.
Hours later, the mayor of the city where the pipeline was to have originated said the project was being cancelled, Reuters reported.
The demonstration was the latest in a string of protests sparked by fears of environmental degradation and highlights the social tensions the government in Beijing faces as it approaches a leadership transition this year.
Thousands of protesters marched through the coastal city of Qidong, roughly one hour north of Shanghai by car, shouting slogans against the planned pipeline that would empty waste from a paper factory in nearby Nantong into the sea.
Wife of ousted China politician charged with Briton's murder
Demonstrators rejected the government's stand that waste from the factory would not pollute the coastal waters.
"The government says the waste will not pollute the sea, but if that's true, then why don't they dump it into Yangtze River?" said Lu Shuai, a 25-year-old protester who works in logistics.
China's 7.6 percent growth rate is the lowest in three years – but the country's economic problems appear more dire than the latest numbers indicate. Some believe the government will counter the downturn with a massive stimulus package, a strategy that has left China's local banks saddled with bad debt in the past. NBC's Ian Williams reports from Beijing.
"It is because if they dump it into the river, it will have an impact on people in Shanghai and people in Shanghai will oppose it."
The state-run Global Times newspaper quoted local residents who said the sewage discharge from the pipeline was expected to be as much as 150,000 tons per day, according to the AFP news agency.
Cars overturned, cops beaten
Several protesters entered the city government's main building and were seen smashing computers, overturning desks and throwing documents out the windows to loud cheers from the crowd.
China begins to admit 'fog' is really smog
An AFP photographer described the scene, saying demonstrators seized bottles of liquor and wine from the offices, along with cartons of cigarettes -- all of which Chinese officials frequently receive as bribes.
Reuters witnessed five cars and one minibus being overturned. Over 1,000 police -- some paramilitary -- guarded the city government office compound in lines.
At least two police officers were dragged into the crowd at the government office and punched and beaten enough to make them bleed.
'Opportunity for democracy': Rebel Chinese village votes
According to the AFP, searches including "Qidong" on China's popular microblogging site Sina Weibo were blocked Saturday. Sina Weibo has over 250 million subscribers.
Earlier posts on Weibo and on Twitter indicated that the protesters had stripped the clothes off the local party secretary, but these reports could not be immediately verified.
On Friday, in an effort to stave off the protest, the Qidong city government announced it would suspend the project for further research.
But many protesters said on Saturday that postponement was not enough.
Carlos Barria / Reuters
A police car lies overturned as protesters occupy a government building during a protest against an industrial waste pipeline under construction in Qidong, Jiangsu Province on Saturday.
"If the government really wanted to stop this project, they should have done it right from the beginning. At this point they are too late," said Xi Feng, a 17-year-old protester.
Local officials took steps to ward off the demonstration and residents received text messages and letters warning that any public demonstration would be illegal.
The reversal came Saturday afternoon, when Nantong Mayor Zhang Guohua announced in a statement that the city would terminate the project proposed by a Japanese-owned paper factory in its jurisdiction.
Rising discontent
Environmental worries have stoked calls for expanded rights for citizens and greater consultation in the tightly controlled one-party state.
The outpouring of public anger is emblematic of the rising discontent facing Chinese leaders, who are obsessed with maintaining stability and struggling to balance growth with rising public anger over environmental threats.
The protest followed similar demonstrations against projects the Sichuan town of Shifang earlier this month and in the cities of Dalian in the northeast and Haimen in southern Guangdong province in the past year.
China tells US Embassy to stop reporting Beijing pollution
In Shifang, the government halted construction of a copper refinery following protests by residents that it would poison them. It also freed most of the people who were detained after a clash with police.
The leadership has vowed to clean up China's skies and waterways and increasingly tried to appear responsive to complaints about pollution. But environmental disputes pit citizens against local officials whose aim is to lure fresh investment and revenue into their areas.
Behind The Wall: Full NBC News coverage from China
Pictures from China on NBCNews.com's PhotoBlog
Fen Jianmei was seven months pregnant when she was forcibly taken to hospital and her child aborted, because she and her husband couldn't afford the fine imposed in China when couples have a second child. NBC's Angus Walker reports from the Shanxi Province, China.
NBC News researcher Tianzhou Ye, Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
More world stories from NBC News:
- In shadow of the Games, London celebrates
- Syria regime 'reeling, armed to the teeth' with chemical weapons
- 'Fairy tale': Is the Olympics really neutral?
- Engel: Rebels dismayed over US statement on Syria
- Brits rally around Games after Romney's Olympic gaffe
- After tough London trip, Romney heads to Israel
- Millionaire medalists: Does the Olympic spirit live on?
- Wife of ousted China politician charged with murder
News on NBCNews.com on Twitter and Facebook
Leave a Comment:
At last! I've always been perplexed as to how this country's government managed to contain its few billion "robots" that never protest anything; how it controlled so very many people; and why the Chinese people didn't seem to "feel" anything strongly enough to protest en masse.
Could this possibly be a new beginning in China toward environmental protection?
I will not go as far to support China, this country destroys their people and their environment...much like our govt. is destroying America....but the times are a changing.
The Chinese protest things all the time. There are protests in every nation of the planet on a near daily basis... It's just never mentioned in US media because they don't want us getting any ideas.
Notice how they only mention OWS stories when they're something negative? notice how they only mention Ron Paul when it's negative? Notice how they put a negative spin on the #anaheim protests against police-brutality? Notice how they've not even mentioned the police-brutality in Dallas? Have you read about Stop & Frisk in NYC? Do you see any coverage of the #Libor scandal? How about mention of the fact that #Aurora Shooter, James Holmes's dad is a financial genius who was set to testify before the senate with evidence of bank fraud against every high ranking bankster on the planet before they framed his son?
The media is just the propaganda arm of your government. Only the stories that benefit those in control are ever published in the mainstream media.
I have spent time in China. It was not always like that. During the communist revolution when Mao took over, the government banned religion and confiscated all guns. Businesses were seized. The government then proceeded to mold "robots" by brainwashing children in public schools at an early age. Children basically became property of the state. Most freedom-loving people had to flee the country and ended up in places like Hong Kong and Taiwan. The government jailed the remaining protesters. Tanks roamed the streets and all resistance was squelched quickly. This happened as late as Tiananmen Square.
Isn't it interesting that it is the liberals who want guns only in the hands of the government? And I wonder why Obama was the candidate who got the endorsement of the Communist Party USA in 2008.
Anonymous, I was right with you until your Aurora fact. James Holmes was framed? He was caught red handed! A theater full of people saw him shoot, heard the bullets flying, and many even felt the bullets enter their bodies. Please don't let your paranoia push you over the edge. A little bit is good, but at this level it starts to turn harmful.
Dead men and women walking. China will get pictures of those people and they will mysteriously disappear.
It's not that the Chinese don't protest. We just don't hear about it. Their media is tightly controlled when it comes to popular uprisings in the homeland and Hong Kong, and especially in Taiwan.
China has a long history of popular uprisings long before Communism, many of which have had a direct impact on the course of the government. This is why the current administration diligently censors the media.
Anonymous,
Alcoa called. Your hat is ready.
I live in Colorado and know many people who were there. Framed? You smoking crack out of your tin-foil hat again aren't you?!
I am sure many of the protesters will end up beaten and thrown in prison instead of the other way around; as it should be.
Many of the forced abortion clinics just toss the dead babies into the rivers as well. There is a major defect in the thought processes of Chinas leaders.
The US didn't always have environmental protections and they were not inacted via magic. Those "crazy" "lefty" environmentalists got the ball rolling with protests that gradually brought public awareness to the level necessary that they demanded change. I regularly hear people moan in American industry that they (China) don't have environmental protections which further impairs our ability to compete in manufacturing. These protests are the initial steps that I hope will lead to eventual change - positive change starts in fits and starts...
Roadwarrior - I'm very liberal, love my guns, and support theNRA. Does that make me a leftist militant? (Rhetorical sarcasm)
Carl,
Who did you vote for in 2008? Obama and the Democrats did not say one word on gun control the last four years because they want to be re-elected. As Obama said, he will be more flexible after the election. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, Senator Schumer quietly sneaked in an amendment in the homeland security bill to band all magazines over ten rounds. The bill will be voted on by the Senate next week. As I said, the Communist Party USA did endorsed Obama.
The government and corporations said it will not have any negative impact, it must be true just like how they said the same thing in the US.
I live in Vietnam with the government and corporations almost the same as China. I am so glad I come to the US to escape all those "trusty" information.
However, even over here, for the life of me I can't understand why people would support corporations and believe in whatever lies they said.
"Private sectors can police itself", what a load of bullcrap. Does this person really think we are that stupid to believe that?
Isn't it funny how hard line communists and hard line capitalists end up being the same?
Batman,
By the same argument, the US didn't always have unions either, but look what they have done to American manufacturing. There comes a time when something which started out doing good morphs into something completely different. As for the Chinese protests being the beginning of something postive, don't count on it. They have one party rule, something which Obama can only dream about.
@Roadwarrior - you are an ignoramice! Does politics blind EVERYTHING you talk about?? I have lived in China as well and recently - the Chinese have MORE individual freedom than Americans - that's the truth. The police DO NOT even carry firearms there! Americans - like you - are the ones who are the problem in this country - trying to re institute and shore up your fake white privilege and follow the American equivalent of a communist party - the REPUBLICANS - right back to a third world America!
They want pollution problem resolved but then they want to block the effort. Pipeline that will poison their coastal waters? It will? Why, because some environmental wackjob said so?
Sounds like our enviro nuts, Wind power, no it kills birds, Wind power, no it kills birds. I forgot they aren't our enviro nuts, they are the same groups
@Paul-2539759
Why don't you go live in China for couple months before you open your ignorant mouth?
It doesn't take some "environment nutjobs" to see the effect on the environment, look at Beijing, I dare you to go outside without any kind of cover on your mouth.
I also dare you to go out on the street during heavy rain, you must love all those waste from river and overflow sewer.
If they actually do build this pipeline, I dare you again to swim to that area. Ignorant is a bliss in your case.
Once the people of China rise up the corporations there will start to flee to a more stable business environment.
Looks like now they will have to back to the US !!!!!!!
Good for them! Toxic waste from a paper factory, a Japanese paper factory no less and these people have to live with it? No way and it gladdens me to see people standing up for their environment that they have to live in.
Notice the paragraph about the crowd siezing the 'bribes?' We here are not much different, except our politicans are bribed with more than bottles of booze. Insider trading is legal for Congress and illegal for the rest of the hoi-polloi.
Destroys its own people and poisons OUR environment.
F@#!$%g wake up, China! Your long ride is just about over! Your people aren't going to buy your lies forever. You can't silence, imprison, or execute them all. Finally, the tide is coming in and I think you've built your house too close to shore!
Pilot,
Where did you live in China, may I ask?
I'll say it again. Why did the Communist Party USA endorse Obama in 2008, hmmm? Groups only endorse like-minded candidates.
I will always support peaceful protesting, but exactly how does destroying computers or cars "help" the environment these folks are supposed to be concerned about ?? Do the knuckleheads committing such senseless acts think those computers or cars aren't going to be replaced, with unnecessary expenditure of resources and additional emissions emitted because of their selfishness and failure to control themselves ??
More power to those who peacefully voice their concerns about important issues, but more power to authorities in arresting and prosecuting those responsible for violence and destruction of property, counterproductive actions that are simply unacceptable in civilized society !!
@ Road Warrior-252445
Right, because if someone endorse you, then they are that, right?
By the same accounts, corporations and oil companies endorse GOP along with all the war profiteers, what does that make GOP then? 2 wars, oh I can see it now, you can spin it something else.
First of all, this isn't @Twitter. Please #StopTryingToMakeThisTwitter. #itwontwork #thenagainnewsvinemgmtlovesfacebook #ohwell
Second, that's actually close to how news should be--it shouldn't only be reporting on negative events, but it shouldn't mention every protest that people have in mind either. It should mention recent noteworthy happenings, and if a protest was widely expected or has been happening over the past few years (e.g. anti-Fed protests) it might be great but it's not news. Maybe they can fit it into their Community Calendar section or whatever.
The media should say what's happening as above, and call out lies when a person says them in an interview or a speech (by noting what's known or otherwise reported on the subject), but it doesn't and shouldn't have an obligation to report (let alone support) most popular protests. Not even the 24-hour networks would have time for that, and it's generally another form of bias (if in another direction).
Van Jones: I am a communist.
Anita Dunn: My favorite philosopher is Mao tse-Tung.
Right, because if you appoint someone, then they are that, right? LOL
I am glad to see that the people of China are protesting. I really thought that everything was squelched before it happened in that country. I think the Chinese are awakening. Unfortunately Americans have fallen asleep. Americans need to wake up before Obama is re-elected. America will be like China if Obama is re-elected. Obama wants to be our supreme leader......our first dictator.
LOL Chong LOL Nguyen, was going to write LOL a follow up LOL but your name LOL cracks me LOL up.
@Paul-2539759
For a racist like you, it may seems fun, but at least spell my name right.
It's a name, Nguyen is a last name of a King in Vietnam.
Ahh, racist like you don't care where it comes from as long as you can make fun of it.
Got you fired up yet, When? Is that the correct spelling? Isn't that the gay king that came out of the closet?
Business left the US not only because they pay their workers NOTHING they also pay NOTHING for preventing POLUTION
Business like APPLE are SICK MOTHER-SUCKERS
Actually, the sick MFer's are the ones who buy the products. If you realize where and how the products are made and you go ahead and buy the products, what does that say about you?
The sad fact about the production of the multitude of consumer products that has moved "offshore" (thanks to the "free trade" agreements pushed by BOTH of our political parties) is that in the vast majority of cases there is simply no green alternative. Say what you will about Apple but buying a Dell or H-P or even a high end brand is no guarantee of getting a product made with sustainable production processes.
Back to these and other environmental protestors who resort to violence and destruction of property, they are actually WORSE than those who favor environmental anarchy in the name of "free markets" because they claim to support environmental protection yet their actions are more harmful to the environment and leave a larger carbon footprint than some 1% fat a$$ sitting in his 5000 sq ft McMansion with the A/C cranked down to 68 degrees !!
Even with 1st Amendment guarantees, OWS American protestors can't even occupy a public park or stage a protest in the public streets without getting shot by tear gas, bean bags, Maced, beaten, and sometimes killed by bullets from Riot Police and SWAT. You would think Americans being a victim of $2trillion dollar theft by Big Government and Federal Reserve would have some rights to redress their government.
The Chinese occupy an entire government building, destroy police vehicles, and protest where they're prohibited, over a proposed sewer pipe construction that they believe will pollute their lives. To the Chinese, the right to protest is quite simple: Based not on some Constitutional right or EPA regulations but basic human rights to be free of dangerous pollution.
Decades ago, when Americans protested against the proliferation of nuke plants, the government brought out SWAT, helicopter gunships, riot police, and armor vehicle to crush the protestors. Ultimately, the numerous nuke accidents and leaks at Detroit's Fermi, Chernobyl, TMI, Hanford, and TVA, convinced the authorities of the danger of nuke pollution. Fukushima is the most recent example.
The American people had been right all along, despite the brutal police suppression and oppression.
Clearly, you weren't among us when we protested Viet Nam. Public/student protest finally put an end to that piece of insanity.
@Annie, I don't mind and didn't mind protestors, so long as it was done responsably and respectfully. When one of your buddies spit on me while I was in uniform because of his protesting, I flattened his A** and his 2 friends also and left them in a world of hurt flat on the ground. The fools didn't realize by defending the Constitution I was defending them to. Yes Annie I even defended your sorry A** and your rights.
Does anybody in their right mind wants a mindless idiot to run amuck in a Nucular Facility doing damage? Protesting is ok with me but it is in "How You Do It".
Chernobyl? Fukushima? Any kind of valid point you had to make is lost in your exaggerations and misrepresentations. It kind of reminds me of a mindless rant.
WallStFatCat - Show me where the First Amendment gives anybody the right to occupy public or private property.
Yet the OWS protestors were given weeks, and in some instances months, to camp out in public locations, close public ways, denying these use of these places to other individuals.
Your right to free speech and free expression ends where it infringes on another person's rights, and freedom to peaceably assemble does not constitute the freedom to seize and take semi-permanent possession.
I was quite happy when police acted to end these demonstrations, which said little beyond, "we want to be noticed".
Are there any OWS candidates running for nation wide public office this year?
6dogs, kiss my a--. Can you say, My Lai Massacre? I seriously doubt you know what you're talking about or that you were ever there.
Annie, can you say Kent State?
6dogs,
Thanks to you and all our brothers (and sisters), past and present, for your service. Don't mind Annie. She seems to be one of the perpetually offended who have the logical disconnect that makes them think that war is always bad, so people who go to war must always be bad people. And, for those in the audience that weren't around in the 60's and 70's and who may think that the anti-war protesters were all peace-loving altruists, you will find (if you care to look) that most of the protests ended when the draft ended, not when the war ended.
@ 6dogs-How was killing pesants on the other side of the world defending my freedoms? Hell, you lost that war, and I am any less free because of it? The only freedom I lost was the freedom to know my uncle.
dave-735909 - I can't come up with a reason why you would point to the Kent State shootings as an apparent ideological counter-weight to Annie's reference to the My Lai Massacre.
U.S. National Guardsmen opening fire on student protestors, and U.S. Soldiers killing unarmed civilians in Vietnam. How does one incident counter-balance the other?
Speaking generally, I am much more on the side of 6dogs, although I don't condone violent retaliation, even for spitting on someone. Whatever his duties in Vietnam may have been, if he served honorably, he is deserving of our respect.
One can hate the Vietnam War without hating all those who fought in it, most of whom were just average young men when their draft number came up.
But if somebody is outraged by the My Lai Massacres, their feelings are unlikely to be changed by remembering the Kent State shootings. Both were cases of U.S. soldiers firing on unarmed civilians.
dman, then re-read the thread fronm the beginning. Her response to WallStfatcat's statement about the U.S. Government responding to protests with SWAT teams and armored vehicles was
My reference to Kent State has nothing to do with Mai Lai. In my opinion the protests against the war in Vietnam were valid. My point is that our government did respond with force and WallSt's point should be well taken.
6dogs, thank you for your service.
Thank you 6Dogs.
I find it very disconcerting when a bunch of crazy, broke , drug addicts, get together and claim that they are the 99%.
Not even close. Most Americans work hard for their money, and if there is no jobs, they try harder and find one before they take the free hand outs our government so freely gives away multi-generationaly to folks who have made a profession out of it.
The irony: OWS protesters are not even close to 99% of the population. Democrats are not even close, if you included liberals and Democrats in that equation, it is still not even close.
It is not possible in this country to win close to 50% of all elections regularly for the last 150 years with 1% of the vote. What a crock of @!$%#.
Again, thank you 6Dogs for both defending yourself when he spit on you, and for putting one of those idiots in their place. I hope you knocked some sense into him, but I doubt it. I am sure he cried police brutality when you gave him a thump for spitting on you.
The same happened to me once, and I am not even a cop. The result was the same though. I heard the one who did it to me needed reconstructive surgery - he attempted to rob me in a grab-and-go.
@WoodShed
You lost all credible when you generalize everyone as "crazy, broke, drug addicts".
You know what nobles label peasant in the past "criminal, lower class, low born, rebel, criminal".
You fell for the first tactics of medias and super rich when you put label and generalize everybody.
Well, Dave, I still do not see the relevance of referencing Kent State as something which should somehow modify Annie's opinion(s).
The Kent State shootings, and those at Jackson State were both part and parcel of the mounting protests against our involvement in Vietnam. The protests themselves were not successful in terms of the direct achievement of any goal. But they did increase the anti-war sentiment in the country, and doubtless mounted the pressure on Richard Nixon to find a way out of the war. So remembering Kent State is not to say that the Vietnam protests did not have an effect, only that they were not without cost.
But perhaps the issue is my comprehension of what WallStFatCat is attempting to say. He piles up a tangle of claims, opinions and ambiguous facts without any clear message beyond distrust of the government.
From such a morass, each reader must pull whatever meaning he can find, and following the resulting thread, through multiple posts, can only be a hit or miss proposition.
Agreed. If nothing else, Kent State should be instructive that it is unwise to throw rocks at people who have guns. OWS apparently has not taken that lesson to heart.
Kent State was just one example, of many, of our government (in the land of the free) responding to protest with force. I believe that is the point that Wallst. was trying to make. I understand the difficulty of filtering meaning, but you asked why I referenced Kent State and I am attempting to explain. I agree with Annie's opinion, and yours, that protest can make a difference. I believe WallSt. agrees as well.
6dogs,
while I applaud your service to the USA lets not be fooled as to the mission in Nam.
no one can say with a straight face that Viet Nam was about OUR constitution!!!!!!!!!!!!
CorporateShill,
Allow me to be the one who says that Vietnam was about our Constitution, albeit indirectly. The armed forces defend our United States, including the Constitution. It is not by where they go that we are defended, but by their willingness to go wherever they are sent.
I beg to differ, two wrongs don't make a right. Robert McNamara said it clearly from the beginning that the Viet Nam war was a mistake, ergo, how can an obvious mistake have any thing to do with the Constitution? No way in hell. Members of the armed forces have to obey, opposed or not to the war and in those days we didn't have a choice, you join or they make you join. We can't blame those that had to join or just joined, but the Military Industrial Complex that Ike talked about. It's always been the case where those who send others to die, didn't have to show their "patriotism." Actually, not always, but lately yes and those in charge, specially now, are the epitome of cowardice. Where would you have found those super cowards? Hiding in the ANG, or deferments galore, or Canada, England, Sweden, etc, etc. Now, if we are talking about the Constitution, which Constitution? The one that allows war crimes galore as now with impunity and putting those who dare to uphold it facing right now life in prsion for life, or the one that prohibits torture 24/7, or the killing of millions of innocent civilians, mostly women and children for oil, under false pretenses and lies galore. The only two wars that were maybe justifiable were both WWI and II. All the others should have been handled through impeachments and jail for those who put the troops in harm's way based on lies.
Denver Bill, don't you hate it when somebody says "Agreed." , in response to something you've said, then continues speaking [or writing], making it clear that they do not agree at all.
I did not say the Kent State demonstrations [or the Jackson State demonstrations, nobody apparently remembers?] were without any worth, only that these events did not directly achieve their goals and were not without cost.
Peaceful protests and even civil disobedience have been corner stones of our political life since colonial days. I would cite the Boston Tea Party as one early example.
The question I believe is being discussed here, is, to what degree are such protests are protected by our Constitution, when is civil authority justified in acting to restore order, and what degree of force are they justified in using.
I would look on these incidents on a case by case by case basis.
Certainly the shootings of unarmed [if unruly] protestors at Kent State and Jackson State cannot be justified by any need to restore order. The National Guardsmen at Kent State, nor the state and local police at Kent State were not faced with armed resistance, and while there had been sporadic acts of violence at Jackson State, no such violent behavior was occurring at the time of the shootings.
You could say the same about the decision of the government to open fire upon the Bonus Army protestors in Washington D.C. in 1932.
I would not say this about government actions to quell rioting in cities like Newark, Detroit and L.A. in the 1960s, nor about the response to colonial era disruptions, such as the Whiskey Rebellion or Shay's Rebellion.
Has undue force been used in dispersing OWS camps in various cities around the country? Difficult for me to say with certainty. The original Occupy Wall Street movement has been cloned in so many cities around the country, and met with so many different levels of response by local authorities in each location.
I do not believe that any group, however motivated, has a constitutional right to occupy public or private property in perpetuity [or indefinitely]. Where police have eventually moved in to clear these occupation protests with non-lethal force, I would say they were fulfilling their proper role in society. This is not to say that all such actions were necessary, or conducted without unreasonable use of force. But I've yet to hear of any occurrence that bears comparison with the shootings at either Jackson State or Kent State in 1970.
Actually, in the beginning, and for a long time thereafter, Robert McNamara's official position on the war was that it was the right decision, and even that it was progressing well. It was only in his last years that he admitted that he had strong doubts about our nation's involvement there.
If he had said if from the beginning, some people would have more respect for him today.
In answer to your question, mistake or not, the Vietnam War's relationship to our constitution is in how the conduct of the war was handled, and in that sense, the war was a success. The executive and legislative branches of government dealt with, and eventually acknowledged general public sentiment and moved to disengage from the war. Individual soldiers, such as 6dogs, whether draftees or freely enlisted, followed the commands of their officers, and ultimately of their commander in chief, fighting and [too often] dying in a country half way around the world.
In my estimation the war was definitely a mistake from a military sense. But it was also a success in that it highlighted the strengths of our governmental institutions.
As to McNamara? I guess you could say that he was a good soldier too. As secretary of defense, he too was bound to obey the instructions of the Commander in Chief. He could have chosen to resign. He could have chosen to subsequently speak out as a private citizen. He chose not to.
Yes, I do. That's why I said "agreed" to indicate that I too believe the protests did not directly achieve any goal.
Neither did I sy they were without worth. Have a nice day.
Denver bill - sorry if offended you. But, from you post, I could only derive one meaning:
...that the Kent State protests were foolish, and that the OWS had not learned from their lesson.
I do not agree. While nobody should throw rocks at the police, neither should they fear an armed response to a somewhat unruly demonstration.
For dman-353357. I'm sorry for bursting your bubble this way, but you can have your opinion, but not your own facts. I have read many articles about this apparently contradiction of McNamara, but just because he confesses something later on in life, doesn't imply that only at that moment was that the eureka moment stroke. Remember, he was part of an administration that was selling, a la used car salesman, the good things about the war, ergo, he couldn't come out and said it right there and then.
Here let me cut and paste this that I found from a guy that was as close to him as you to your keyboard. Here it goes: "As we now know, McNamara developed later doubts while in office about whether the Vietnam War could be won - but he still proceeded with the escalation." The key words here and don't lose me, are: While still in office. His confession, the public one, came decades later. I didn't know that I had to document something to you that has been knowledge of all, except you of course. The only reason you didn't know it when was the first time he actually said the war was a big mistake, was because you didn't get the memo. Had I known that you would questioned me about what he said and when he said it, I would have kept a copy in my records to show you. Is the next thing for you to say the Gulf Of Tonkin actually happened? Or that WMDs actually were there? Has the government told a truth, ever? No. Have I told a lie? Never, ergo, wouldn't your odds of being right would be better believing in what I say than the boy who cried wolf? Ubetcha! Actually, and FYI, he left office in 1968, which proves your statement to be as wrong as the war itself.
Now, as the Viet Nam war being a success, are you sure you know what you are saying? If the Viet Nam war was a success, why did we leave in such a hurry? If the Viet Nam war was such a success, why the reatard pervert and his bunch of cowards made damn sure, starting with Mr Deferment, they imprisoned the fourth power and turned whatever was left into another government agency?
I remember well how Barry Goldwater promised to nuke North Viet Nam back into the Stone Age, and he rode into history as the worst defeat of any candidate based on the popular votes casted. It was almost 2 to 1.
I know you see history with re-writing eyes, but not you, nor I can re-write it. Many have tried, but have failed. The past and worst administration ever has tried, but guess what, nobody is buying that. Imagine, if anybody of the past administration ever shows their ugly faces and souls in Europe, they will have lots of years to think about their war crimes. Nice try though, but those tries will not work with me.
Well, hell no, you couldn't burst anybody's bubble with such a dull needle. Reading comprehension might have helped you here. You should begin with your own words. The issue is not what he thought, or the private doubts "McNamara developed later", but what he said [your words coming at you] from the beginning.
Full quote:
The issue was not what Robert McNamara thought, but what he said, in his public pronouncements. What you offer in a partial rebuttal, is an unattributed quote, from an unnamed individual of whom you assure me, he was closer to him than I am to my keyboard. You do not name him, or attribute the source. I gather that I am supposed to just accept your word about something "a guy" said, and not attempt to read the full quote, in context.
...actually your purported quote [from some guy] reads
That is [don't lose me] LATER as opposed to FROM THE BEGINNING, which is the phrase you initially use in this context. "Later" does not mean the same thing as "from the beginning", or were you absent from school the day this was covered?
But I do not really doubt that McNamara expressed such doubts privately, my point, which apparently passed you wide and to the right, is that he never had the moral courage to speak of these doubts when it might have done some good.
Now as to the success or failure of the Vietnam War.
Starting with your words...
I never said it was a success from a military perspective. What I said, in two short, easy to understand sentences, was as follows:
An idiot with a ninth grade command of the English language would be able to see that I only said it was a success in that it showed how the mechanisms of our government continued to function at a time of extreme stress, all of which was in response to your rather silly, original question, "how can an obvious mistake have any thing to do with the Constitution?".
Governments do make mistakes. It is how they and the society they govern handle these mistakes that ultimately determines their long term success.
How you got from that to your tirade, is anybody's guess.
BTW: It really is not relevant to this discussion, but speaking of developing your own "facts", Goldwater never "promised to nuke North Viet Nam back into the Stone Age" He speculated that the use of tactical nuclear weapons might be justified, to clear jungle cover during specific battle conditions. His expressed ideas in this regard were foolish, impractical, and politically stupid, but still a far cry from promising "..to nuke North Viet Nam back into the Stone Age", except to you perhaps.
Yet you are the one claiming that Goldwater promised to nuke vietnam into the stone age, that McNamara said from the beginning, that the war was a mistake.
I said only that McNamara never expressed such doubts while in office, and that Vietnam War, while not a military success, showed the strengths of our institutions and that the soldiers who fought in it, in following the lawful commands of their commanding officers, were upholding and defending the Constitution. I still say so.
Whew! I've seldom encountered anybody who uses so many words to say so little as you, Hell No.
I have just gained a newfound respect for the Chinese people.
I have two questions:
1) which ones ?
2) I wonder how much trash they left behind them ?
@woodshed -- get out of your trailor and get an education .......there are more wealthy business people in China than the US and they are CLEARLY better educated!
I was talking about OWS with someone. I am in full support of the protests in China.
Chinese people don't really have the power to vote so they HAVE to protest
Americans HAVE the power to vote but are far to lazy to take advantage of the system so end up protesting.
The Chinese people don't really protest Americans. Their corrupt government does.
It's kind of like "Maslows Hierarchy of Human Needs" shows. They cannot be worried about us when they are running from a tiger ( Their own government and the police all of the time).
We do have the right to vote, but the country is divided by sectionalism of two wealthy parties.
One thing we have to be concerned about is when one party has the majority of all three branches of government. Then we are at their will; this can be seen at the state level.
There are one or two loop holes in our Constitution that were left out. Hamilton and Madison did a great job preventing Congress from becoming too powerful with the addition of the court, but the majority can still rule with an iron fist.
One precaution I would like to see would be to give the minority the ability to to appeal a Bill to the Supreme Court that could be deemed statuary. This would greatly benefit the people from subversion.
The other would be to have a strong third party, but that needs a great leader, popularity and fincial backing to get started. Another voice in government wouldn't do us any harm.
@woodshed again --- demonstrating his ignorance of other cultures - haha. The police are like Uncles - in fact - when you address a policeman in China you respectfully call him UNCLE! Police do not even carry firearms in China. Here is a test for YOU woodshed --- go tell a police officer in the US to go F*** himself ---- see what happens!!!! Even if you do this from the confines of your private residence - the policeman will call for back up - kick down your door - beat the crap out of you and arrest you using false statements regarding his "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion" regarding a "DISTURBANCE" at your residence!!! You think your FREE???? You are WRONG!! EVERY Chinese has more personal liberty than you do!!
Pilot1-3869368
There is nothing in your post that addressed anything I even said.
What are you, an idiot ?
Pilot,
The police don't need to carry guns in China? The public has been completely disarmed and at the mercy of the government. Why would the police need guns when they have the military backing them? I was in Kowloon. How recent were you in China and where? You won't hear about it, but the people in the picture and public spy cameras will be quietly rounded up and jailed. You speak of all the freedom in China and the police brutality of American cops. You do know the police unions support Democrats. What is stopping you from moving?
When I was in Beijing a few years ago, I saw a lady yelling at a policeman in the middle of a busy sidewalk. He just stood there, with his head down until she was through. She even smacked him on the arm a couple of times. Try that in the good old USA.
scott,
Speaking loudly at the police is one thing. Cursing or abusive language is something else. What was the lady saying to the police officer? The first rule of judging what one is saying in Beijing is making sure you speak Mandarin.
I do speak Mandarin. Half of my family is from Tianjin. I was too far away to hear. What does that have to do with anything?
scott,
Chinese when talking to someone they know like family members or close friends tend to speak very loud, almost screaming over each other. So if you couldn't hear what the lady was yelling at the cop, you wouldn't know if it was a confrontation or just a friendly chat.
@roadwarrior - there is an underground market in firearms in China. The military have weapons and NOT the police because the police do not need them. In the US people are EXECUTED by the police all the time ------occasionally you hear about it when there is a blatant execution in front of someones camera as in this weeks case in Anaheim. The rest of them you will never hear a peep because the police will lie on police reports - perjure themselves in court - and protect their fellow blue gang members at all costs. When some kid in rural Missouri is gunned down along with his buddy for screwing the cops wife - the cop got away with murder. When poor people disrespect the police they are punished with brutality and cannot afford a $250/hour attorney to defend themselves.
Don't fool yourself in to thinking you have some "special freedom" here in this country. I have lived in China - visited other provinces - speak Mandarin - I know from where I speak. The only thing that will get you in big trouble in China is threatening to overthrow the government. Try to overthrow the government here and see what happens.
The American voters are disillusioned with the current political system that monoplizes the power in the two major political parties. The members of the two parties are of the wealthy, upper income, pin-stripe suit crowd with 7 digit salary paying little taxes. The working stiffs are struggling a life of hand-to-mouth-existence after paying numerous taxes to governments.
Leaderships from both political parties have plunged America into useless wars; destroyed domestic manufacturing and industry; deficit spending through the printing press; impoverished the people with money debasement.
The American voters do not see any difference in their lives whether a Repubican or Democratic party govern the nation. Both parties screw them repeatedly. The choice is meaningless. The parties nominate one of their favorite 'hommie' and tells the American people " you can vote for this guy or that guy. "
That's why many eligible American voters stop voting. It's a fraud.
I wonder if they get American protests in China. Do they care? It's only Americans that find the need to meddle in other's business. "THose in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". On the contrary, when Americans want to protest, they shoot up people in movie theaters and schools.
Why would a person that knows how to form words with letters say such a thing? Do you think that the "fog" in China stays in China? You think it might affect anybody else? China's exportation of contaminated children's toys or contaminated dog food helped draw interest into what is going on in China. How much coal is burned in China in a day that goes up in smoke without any pollution controls? Np need to wonder now. In America not much happens that goes unnoticed, and it is a terrible thing when mentally ill individuals perform atrocious acts. China has had forced abortion and has had a history of not allowing certain news events to become public.
@crabdusty, I have kmown about abortion in China for many years now. The 1 child family. One has to realize that a mass of land can only support just so many people before you cannot supply enough food or living space for the population. Who knows, we may have to enact such laws here in the USA someday.
Phillip Woon,
Maybe the ELF protesters emigrated.
It is not that I am against a one child policy so much as how they go about it. Often 5 or six strong men kidnap the girl very roughly and she is tied to a table. they rip her clothes off and a not very good doctor roughly performs the abortion often tying her tubes at the same time.
They then just kick her out into the cold, or whatever weather they are having and she has to walk home disheveled, disoriented, humiliated and in physical and emotional pain.
When they remove the fetus, through induced labor, they just toss the dead fetus into a river or into a trash bin. It is really quite awful for the young lady.
about time,they must be tired of scraping the soot off the rice over there,and back here we are running romney, a chief polluter for president.
Yup, no pollution after Obama and his EPA shuts down all manufacturing, farming and service business here, oh and no jobs then either. Life just like tree huggers want, we will all starve while riding around on bikes hugging each other wrapped in rainbow flags....flags I say!
There will be no people to work those jobs as they die off from pollution related disease.
Maybe if Americans were smart enough to do more than polluting, manual labor type jobs we wouldn't have to keep these dinosaur industries alive. I had surgery a few months back and about half of the medical staff were foreign born. There's plenty of work if you're smart enough. Too bad the education system here is so underfunded.
or maybe the best doctors from other countries come here because we pay more and not because of a lack of educated Americans. So a top level student from India is willing to compete for the same jobs as an American who is average because it pays 10 times as much as he would be making in India. Naturally he will get the job. The best American born doctors don't compete for those same jobs as they are at the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, Johns-Hopkins etc... making 7 figures.
Education is not underfunded. A good high-school education is free and available to those willing to study. The problem is students (many of them, but not all) are undermotivated. The motivated ones get good grades, earn scholarships, and go to college FOR FREE. The unmotivated have learned that they can grow up and vote for officeholders that will GIVE them what they want without having to work for it, putting themselves and future generations in debt. Unfortunately, that can't go on forever. Hopefully, the problems in some European countries will teach them the folly of runaway debt before it is too late (if it isn't too late already).
While that may be true, it neither answers or addresses the question of why aren't we producing more doctors.
doesnt really matter arguing over romoney or Obama as mother nature is gonna put the hurt on us,crops dead,water gone,and rising,tornados,triple digit temps from maine to oregon,and when we are shriveling up like a cinder in the not too distant future fatso limbaugh,the oil companies that own us,fox news and the GOP will be telling us that its a liberal hoax. Roast you fools.
Support for China!
this is not your father's china look like a bunch of western college kids protesting Hope the powers to be listen to them This is a very encouraging sign Now if we could get the two parties in washington to listen to us.
Personnelly I can't wait for them to have labor Laws, and to discover the power of the Unions there. That ought to get Chevy having chills up their back side.
Congratulations Protesters! We, the 99% American People, have the same kind of problems that you do, but ours has been brought on by a corrupt Republican corporate MONARCHY & they have INFILTRATED our Democratic government with their "HAND-PICKED political puppets and MADE SLAVES OF US! They SNEAKILY STOLE our GUARANTEED PENSIONS and gave us their "INSURANCE POLICY" 401k that says, if we fail, so do you! The corrupt FINANCIAL corporates have brought on our ECONOMIC COLLAPSE & the GLOBAL ECONOMIC COLLAPSE that pushed our homes into foreclosure! The wall streeters are starving our families with their corrupt, phony high-priced gasoline UNDER THE PRETEXT of high priced barrels of oil! Fortunately, we have a way out of their "OIL CRISIS" and YOU DO TO! It's a viable electrical energy system that can be used for home & automobiles which is 100% NON-POLLUTANT! It is extremely cheap to build, install, operate & maintain. Each home system is independent of each other, which means that during inclement weather there would be NO MORE MASSIVE POWER OUTAGES!
There are 3 viable patents for MAGNETICALLY-DRIVEN ELECTRICAL ENERGY by Howard Johnson in our U.S. Patent Office and they have been there a long time! We have people already using this form of energy for their home electricity and TROY REED of Tulsa, Oklahoma has been developing a magnetically-driven electrical motor for automobiles.
All electric motors are magnetically driven...betcha didn't know that did ya.
Duly noted, Wally. It is amazing how many people have unrealistic beliefs about electrical energy, from where it is derived, and how it is used. I admit my ignorance on the subject. But I do know that electrical current is not derived out of thin air.
I did wonder just who is this Troy Reed of Tulsa, or Howard Johnson; not the founder of the long since defunct restaurant chain, I expect.
I looked it up. Troy Reed created a minor media splash back in 1994, when he claimed to have a self-charging, electrical generator, which might be adapted for costless [and pollution-free] use in cars, homes and God knows what else.
Somehow it never played out. Perhaps a problem with the patent laws was at fault. Perhaps the evil petroleum industry played a part. Perhaps those pesky, first and second laws of thermodynamics were ultimately a problem.
In other words, he was a nut.
Howard Johnson, same type of invention, touted a little more than a decade before. Same difficulties were encountered: Another perpetual motion machine.
What did P.T. Barnum say was born every minute?
mSo were do they get the power to energize the magnets? Magic electrical fairies? Also there is no possible way to make all the components of any system without causing any pollution. What do you do with the products that wear out, even if you recycle them, there's gonna be pollution. Also where is the energy stored, in a battery? Show me 1 battery that doesn't contain any pollutants in it.
If you're gonna claim something to be 100% pollution free, from the start of the manufacturing process to the end life a product it must never pollute.
And just an FYI, when your computer starts typing in capitalized letters, there's a button next to the A letter on your keyboard called Caps Lock. There's even a little light on your keyboard that tells you Caps Lock is on, isn't that amazing, the wonders of computing. You might want to try to keep track of it next time slugger, but it's OK for now.
China is going through a series of economic, social and political evolutions in a highly accelerated time frame.
From a totalitarian, backward nation, beset with a Maoist form of puritanism, to one in which the citizens are demanding a voice in government, social freedom and and that the government take note of the ecological cost of the country's rapid growth.
It is hard to say where these changes will ultimately lead.
good for the people of China.
So what, then is the object of any protest if not to be noticed?
And the reason most people got a limited message from OWS was the way the media presented the story.
Even my Mother, an 82-year-old leftie who grew up during the Depression and watched her father giving food away from his store, thought they were a bunch of ineffective half-nude hippies taking bong hits between hurling epithets at passing businessmen.
Why? she was watching the mainstream broadcast news. When she read the website, and saw the youtube postings she understood more and moderated her opinion.
Just as repressive regimes or abusive policy wonks seek to hide their nefarious activities - preventing public notice and outcry- it is the action of attracting public notice that is the essence of public protest.
The ways to achieve the goal vary, but the object is the same, whether by Chinese citizens or OWS in US.
china will eventualy take all the companys that american corporations built over there and call them their own.
It's a poor world we are all making !!
They better watch out. The chinese will kill them. They control the media. Remember tien..square... well the chinese don't - it was wiped from everything. The locals would say...why would our governemnt do that?
Do you even know anyone who lives there? I think not. Half my family lives there. They know more than you about what happened.
Road Warrior -
I have to disagree with you only on the point that these are not new (meaning since communist era) policies. The Imperial Chinese system was just as inbred and bloody-minded, and you have to look way, way back in Chinese political hstory to find anything even remotely resembling a free society.
The free-thinking Chinese public were only free to express themselves during a very brief period between the dissolution of the emperor's power and the communist takeover, which turned out ideologically to be something like a conservative backlash against the free-thinkers, with policy structures very similar to Imperial mandates, only way more risky and harmful.
My Husband's family is from HK and he always says, " All the free-thinkers that the emperor didn't kill off were finally exterminated by the Communists"
mama,
I spent seven years in Kowloon. There is always freedom and free-thinking in the human spirit even with the government's intense brainwashing. You can keep most of the slaves in their place, but there is a portion of the population always yearning to be free. The problem with central planning by a few "smart people" like the liberals want is that only the philosophy of the planners are permitted. Every time the slaves revolt, the planners take them out.
We are all very happy to know you were in Kowloon.
But that's in Hong Kong, which was a British colony until 1997, and to this day a very different environment, so not entirely indicative of public policy or individual sentiment as it exists in day-to-day practice throughout the rather immense mainland.
That said, I still agree with everything you said except your perception of the central government's suppression or manipulation of individual freedoms as a relatively new thing, historically speaking. That has been going on for centuries.
When the stagnation of the past ignores the viability of tomorrow, the children of the future will defend their right to live.
I applaud their resistance and I applaud their demonstrations. If it isn't already, China will become a polluted industrial wasteland - with absolute and deadly consequence for any who live or remain there. Cancers and birth defects within the 99% will derail the narrow minded pursuit of power/control and the almighty dollar.
A little knowledge that has been around a long time. China puts out ten times the pollution industrial societies have done within half the time. Don't believe your news media's become a scientist or chemist and find out for yourself using critical thought. The Ozone layer is the atmosphere of the planet without it it's going to get really warm and dangerous to breath. It is already dangerous to breathe. That is why the poor Chinese protest because unlike the protected high party members it is hard for them to escape contamination.
Yes we did outsource alot of cancer causing jobs to China. Almost a blessing in disquise not to have all that pollution here in America. We must always count our blessings. Ten more years and they will all need Obamacare. Here in America if they have another child we give them welfare there you get a free abortion if you can't afford one. Pay the fine ! Pay or be fined is what Obamacare does we must be swappping notes with China on how to run the NWO .
What is interesting is that Chinese couples are aborting more girls than boys. Everyone wants a boy so to be able to care for the family. The problem is that there will be too many bucks and not enough does. This will cause a lot of sexual frustration. War what is it good for ! Women will end up ruling the world it will end up just like China where they abort males at birth and let women live. Women have the advantage when it comes to birth and what they want. So they will simply allow girls to live and abort the boys. The Black Widows !
Knowingly and willingly polluting the sea, the lack of enforceable environmental regulations and little or no safety and health regulations?
Sounds like the ideology and agenda of the Republican politicians in the U.S. Congress and state legislatures.
Karma is a BiatchHhh !
It's true that the world is changing. But is it for the good? Yes, times will get bad but
ultimately they will turn out well for some. Read the Bible.
LOL
Read the rantings of bronze age religious zealots who believe that if you symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of a jewish zombie that he will let you live forever?
The so called "bible" is a joke no matter WHAT your Sunday School teacher told you when you were 6!!
yes, because we are so enlightened today,just look around
Sichuan, Pilot1-3869368
- What you two fail to understand is that I myself am an Atheist.
What I don't do though is lose my moral compass. If you are all about freedoms, them why all the intolerance with the church. They caused me, or anyone I have ever met any harm.
I thought people who were all about freedom said; "live, and let live".
By your thinking, everybody should be in prison because someone else committed a crime. You two have a few wires crossed.
@woodshed ---- I am not sure where you are coming from or how old you are. Religious people in general and Christians are the most intolerant people on the face of the earth. They strive INTENSELY to bring others in to their circle of hatred for those who who do not believe in Jesus the Jewish Zombie. Hitler was a devout catholic - not an atheist as the religious would have you believe. He colluded with the "church" to exterminate the Jews because he was raised in an intolerant catholic atmosphere. This may be an extreme example --- but it is a GREAT example of how today's Christians conspire to change history to suit their political and power aspirations. Another example is using the authority of the priesthood to RAPE young boys who not until they become older and wiser are even aware that that is WRONG!
The Chinese have it right when they disallow religious influence in their government. The Americans can take some lessons from that. It is embarrassing for me personally to have to defend my countries politics of democracy that REQUIRES out Presidential candidates to PUBLICLY claim that they believe in the Jewish Zombie Jesus and that by symbolically eating his flesh and drinking his blood iin a bloody cult ritual called communion that he will let them live forever by removing an evil force from their soul put their because a talking snake told a rib-less women to eat fruit from a magical tree!!
boom baby
goes to show
a human is a human is a human
good jog people of china
prooves you are like us, no differences, looking for the same goal. save the planet, shows its really governments that creat the wars not its people, money # 1 is wrong, well im thinking the poeple of china know right from wrong here good job
Why, in the United States, is an unborn child, of any age, always referred to by the media as a 'fetus'?
Apparently in China, the same 'media rules' do not apply:
"Fen Jianmei was seven months pregnant when she was forcibly taken to hospital and her child aborted"
One answer might be, that when a child is not wanted, it is referred to as a fetus, but when the mother does want to keep her fetus, it suddenly becomes a child.
Good point, @Boom. The Chinese GOVERNMENT and the warlords who run it dictate what appears in the media and what does not. They use that (technically correct) verbiage in order to further terrorize their own people into complying with their unfair and inhumane edicts.
The fact is, China's government consider baby girls to be nothing more than trash and not worth the price of a fresh, lean dog carcass.
I've documented some of my experiences in the APRC (Androgynous People's Republic of China) on my Asia blog: http://justlooklikefrog.wordpress.com.
The citizenry of China also have to RISE UP and change their government's evil ways; i.e., overthrow their government in favor of a peaceful, democratic one, where THE PEOPLE are responsible for electing their own choice of corrupt politicians, kinda the way we do here.
I know a lot of people in China are reading this -- let it be just another in a long list of calls to take action against your corrupt, subhuman government before they f**k this entire planet for ALL OF US.
Warren, China and the US have many parallels, in that when the US was emerging as a world class manufacturing giant, we polluted the heck out of many lakes and rivers, much like China is doing today. We can only hope that uprisings like this will have a real effect on their government.