DOOOOOOOM! and GLOOOOOOM! If you vote for Obama, your dog will die and the world will spin into the sun! Jesus will smite the non-believers and satan will rape your daughters!

Come on, get real. Nuclear power is too dangerous, look at Japan, we cannot afford that kind of disaster. Nuclear waste remains toxic for 250,000 years and we're running out of places to store it safely. Hell, Dominion Virginia Power wanted to store waste from the Lake Anna nuclear plant in caves in the mountains, where our main water sources begin. We are on the verge of achieving cold fusion, when that happens, let's talk nuclear, until then, it's not safe enough and not clean enough. You still have to burn coal to condition the rods for use in the reactor anyway, so claims that it's clean energy are just plain false.

@pw:

370 million people in seven states without power

That is more people than the entire United States. I doubt that we will have the same kind of problems. Also, if you think that the problems of energy shortages will be solved only with simple solutions as using more fossil fuels, think again.

Even if you do not believe in global warming, at least you can see what all that is doing to the environment. Our laziness about looking for alternatives is the reason why we can't come up with other ideas.

pw, you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. The reason coal isn't being used now is because natural gas, which burns cleaner, is cheaper and more plentiful. Next time, trying informing yourself.

I worked in the electric utility business for almost 35 years before retiring. Although the vast majority of electric utilities in this country are in far better shape than their third world counterparts, there are problems out there.

Electric Utilities in this country are regulated, pretty much, on knee jerk reactions AFTER they have failures in their systems. As with other industries here, the utility industry has consolidated, and continues to consolidate into larger and larger entities. Some now being bought up by foreign concerns. THE BOTTOM LINE is the operating mantra in today's utility business. If they think they can get by just one more year, by forgoing system upgrades, including new poles, wires, substations and advanced control circuitry, then they will forgo it to improve growth for the stock holders. It's a business and the viability of maintaining customers' service needs come in second place. The issue of Coal versus oil, versus Nat Gas is a moot point. Oil and Coal fired plants will be GONE shortly. The existing generating plants are being converted to Nat Gas as we speak and others will be shut down due to their ages. One only has to look at the type of freight the Rail companies are hauling now. CSX and Union Pacific have lost huge tonages in their coal hauling business. COAL is DONE. The nuclear option had better be considered more openly it is safer today than ever. The Japanese allowed those Nuke generators to be sighted right there on the coast of a country PRONE to massive earthquakes and Tsunamis. They should have never been allowed to be built there and in such close proximity to each other.

Our massive Grid failures have happened in the resent past and may happen again. Electric loads are growing in this country along with the population. When large 'outages' occur, quite often, what precipitates them, is a System failure brought about by those electronic monitoring systems meant to isolate cascading failures over a large generalized area of the Electric Grid. I would suppose that is what happened in India. A failure in one of their High Voltage Transmission circuits failed (probably due to overloading) and collapsed the system like a row of Dominoes. A properly designed and implemented control system watches every transmission circuit by the millisecond. When a failure is perceived by this monitoring system, that control system will automatically ISOLATE that troubled circuit by dropping it OFF LINE instead of allowing a cascading event to happen over the entire Grid.

Putting everything else ahead of the VERY THING that makes this entire planet work is brain dead. Electricity is a product everyone takes for granted.....until it's gone.

I guess their systems are overloaded trying to handle all the outsourced jobs that Bain has sent them.

So lack of a reliable energy system has serious impacts on economic development and jobs, not to mention disruptions to people's daily lives?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I wonder if Obama's policy of trying to regulate coal fired electric plants out of existence is such a great idea, especially since we get half of our electricity from coal?

Perhaps a new President would have more of a 'balance' between encouraging 'green technology' and actually meeting our energy needs during the current transition to clean energy sources.

I find it interesting that if only half of the wasted 'Stimulus' money was spent on installing solar panels on houses instead of subsidizing public employee pensions, we could have provided most of the energy needs of close to half of all homes in America.

Of course, houses don't vote, but union workers do - typically for the Democrats.

@balls

Please stop with the "Bain outsourcing" and realize that they are only one of hundreds that do this. Quit blaming one company and one person for this issue. Read for yourself! There are lists of the companies on any news or finacial page. Educate yourself.

pw-777, nice try but no cigar. Congress has, for decades, ignored the need to provide incentives necessary for the research and development of alternative sources of energy while continuing to provide unnecessary subsidies to the fossil fuel energy industry. The development of such alternative methods of energy production would also provide millions of jobs for Americans. Meanwhile, China is taking the lead with such technologies and will benefit handsomely from doing so.

I've always been a supporter of fossil fuel and nuclear energy production; however, when it comes to the contamination of our land, water and atmosphere due to oil spills, fracking and tar sand production, not to mention the detrimental effects to our health and the health of our children, it's past time to change our ways. Some things are more important than money and profits. Of course, I don't expect you to understand that. As always, the biggest threats being faced are the result of the actions of the human race.

We need to get the oil monkey off our backs. Save the oil for plastics and the other products obtained from it and stop letting the other oil producing nations use oil as a political weapon.

You mean if we breed like rabits in an uncontrolled population boom then there will be consequences? You dont say.....

Damn yoUU MAYYYYYYY ANNNNNsssss.! ; ]]

Cheers

I hope "Tom" from Dell has a battery-powered alarm clock.

Saturday the sun flared and we are in a solar storm. This causes power disruptions. The worst of these polar magnetic storms are going to be interfere with many things. Earth expects a glancing blow around 11 AM EDT Today.

India's land mass is 1/3 of that of the United States and considering they have over 1 billion people and the US population is barely over 310 million, that's a major overload for any grid, I don't care what kind or how many energy sources a country is using. It's the equivalent of putting the entire US population in the states east of the Mississippi. You think gun violence is bad now.....

This is one result of a lack of investment in infrastructure. I hope that people who are reflexively opposed to government spending keep that in mind.

Some 'political' points have been made on this blog for (quite apparently) political reasons. Not everything is political. No one knows this better than those who run these utilities. It is a FACT that Nat gas finds and their growing supplies have had a huge impact on the price of Nat Gas. It is down, way down and will continue to be low for the foreseeable future. It is, quite simply, good economics for every electric generating company to convert or build new Nat Gas generating systems. A high pressure Nat Gas pipeline is a highly superior delivery system supplanting the HUGE coal yards and train track infrastructure needed to support a generating station. Natural Gas is the OBVIOUS choice for any CEO running a generating company. It's a "NO BRAINER" as far as reduced operating costs go. Not political at all, of course, unless your Congressman or Senator is from a coal mine state.

Any significant problems with the US power grid is a lack of investment in transmission lines. We have bottle necks and imbalanced supply and demand between regions.

Agreed Wakehead. it seems the utilities, along with FERC are always a couple of steps behind the 'need.' Of course sighting, planning and engineering a new Transmission line is time consuming with the Sighting process usually, lengthy. Utilities have been trying to get around (on the short term) shortage problems by increasing the designed load carrying capacities by several percentage points. Adding load to existing circuits can and have created problems. As you may know adding additional loads to circuits which are already near their design capacity can cause greater conductor sag thereby reducing ground clearances. This event actually caused conductors to sag into trees which started ground fires and the eventual loss of the circuit in some parts of the country. On top of all of that, there is a dire shortage of qualified Linemen in this country. Our returning soldiers could be an untapped resource for this harrowing duty!

This means if you call for tech support you wont get through until power is restored in India.

VirginiaDemocrat:

Your fear of nuclear energy is a little irrational. I'm not casting stones, just trying to give you additional data that may modify your position somewhat.

First, the plants in Japan were of an antiquated design, and had a number of inherent flaws. TEPCO exacerbated the risk by not properly envisioning disaster scenarios that are inherent to that area of the world. Finally, the earthquake and resulting tsunami could rightly be characterized as a "1000 year event", something so catastrophic that perhaps no amount of disaster training could have prevented it. It should also be noted that the tsunami killed approximately 16,000 people, and there were no immediate deaths due to radiation exposure. In fairness, however, there are guesstimates of up to 100 deaths possible as an eventual result of exposure.

Nuclear energy can be made very safe, and for my part, I'd rather have a concentrated area of risk with a nuclear power plant, rather than coal plants, which have a lower, but more widely dispersed area of risk.

Your assertion that we are close to viable fusion power is incorrect. We are likely generations away from sustainable fusion power. It is worth pursuing, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

pw is correct that we'll see this here, but for the wrong reasons. We should be able to supply enough electricity for the foreseeable future, but it is our transmission grid that needs upgrading badly. In fact, investment in a smarter, more efficient grid might even save enough money in the long haul to pay for itself.

To serve our energy needs now and in the future, we need a blended approach. That means gas, coal, oil, nuclear, hydroelectric, and to a smaller degree wind. I leave solar out because outside remote locations, it's just plain a loser from an engineering standpoint. Lousy energy density, you see.

So, I hope I haven't offended, but I don't like to see anyone succumb to hype about anything, negative or positive.

Sichuan - good points. I agree. High time we stop just going along and ignoring other options out there; we are slowly making progress but not enough, everyone wants to make it political short term instead of seeing the big picture. Its not a case of switch tomorrow and FF are done. Far from it. But it does need to be a case of long term thinking and investment in alternative energies, now, so we can ween ourselves off FF's for energy production. Like you said then leave the oil to the other products we use it for, which even then there are new technologies out there like bio polymers that could replace oil based plastics. Just like you mentioned we need to stop being a slave to FF's and free ourselves. There are plenty of other reasons beside global warming and climate change to it.

As far as the article goes, this is an extreme example but a not to far off possibility for us. One more thing we need to focus on and work towards, updating our electrical grid infrastructure. It will help prevent things like this, make it less vulnerable to attack/failure, and save energy. Win Win.

As for the power production some people mentioned nuclear. Yes I agree light water reactors are past their time and need to be phased out. However, there are other options like LFTR's that could solve most of our problems if we can get some good investments and get the regulatory agencies to address them. The military is currently looking into these. LFTR's and solar, combined with improved storage abilities and updated grid are the way to go.

Mr. Tom - I respect your position but I will have to disagree. Solar matches or is close to the daily load profile and produces power when its needed. It also has virtually no maintenance. There are plenty of roof tops out there that would allow consumers to produce a good part of their energy needs and not spoil the view. Also as we invest now the product is only going to get better. In short out of all the renewables I think that is the last one that we should count out. But you are correct it needs to be a blended approach but meaningful investments in alternate energy sources, one that will allow us to hopefully sooner than later kick FF to the curb for energy production.

It is time

You cannot blame the current administration for a problem that has been developing since we created the infrastructure. It is not one sides fault here over the others but the failure of both our parties to work together.

Not to worry, this is one of the BRIC's countries. For those that do not know, BRIC stands for Brazil, Russia, India, and China, and they are the current economic forces to be reckoned with. Got to have the power grid though to power those cheap labor factories to kick our Northern European and North American asses.

Current electricity situation is NOTHING compared to the fact that most sewage in India is dumped into rivers completely untreated or treated to minimal degree. India's lack of investment in infrastructure is flat out appalling.

As far as the power grid in the USA, it is not owned nor maintained by the government. Power companies own those and we pay money to the power companies to furnish us power. Part of it needs to be rebuilt for sure, and our power plants are getting old, but there are new coal and natural gas plants being built, there are about four of them within a couple of hundred miles of me that are going on line in the next year or two.

This is gonna hurt all those outsourced call centers over there. No tech support for you guys lol.

@VirginiaDemocrat78

Oh my God, best post of the week! The hypocrisy of you starting out mocking someone else for "doom and gloom" right before you do the same thing was priceless but then you say-

....we're running out of places to store it safely.

I thought that was funnier than @!$%# but then you follow with-

We are on the verge of achieving cold fusion,....

ROTFLMAO!!! Either you need to look up the meaning of the phrase "on the verge of" or you are utterly clueless regarding all forms of nuclear energy. I'll bet of the latter since it is a common trait amongst those who oppose nuclear power.

I don't believe we'll be having this problem anytime soon actually. This is quite a crisis especially for hospitals and day care centers which need some of the electricity in keeping their system functioning. The best you can do is just hang tight and read books when things get gloomy.

The electrical grid is in jeopardy and so are all the rest of our utilities. I was in the water industry for nearly 30 years. I've watched what has happened/is happening in my community. Police and Fire consistently bargain for increased wages and benefits, the contracts they work under are subject, by law, to binding arbitration. The non-uniformed employees are not. So...police and fire have traditionally ended up with better settlements than non-uniformed segments of the city. As wages and benefits climb in the police and fire departments, funds are diverted from other public sector services to cover the increased costs of providing law enforcement and fire protection. Soon the roads are full of pot holes because street departments have had to lay off large numbers of employees, water and sewer systems fail because money and personnel for maintaining those systems isn't available.

Public adulation of fire fighters is not unfounded, and, though many may find reason to take exception to the idea, police deserve a huge amount of respect for the tough job they do every day, but there needs to be a balance between providing public safety services and other, essentials like water, garbage pickup, sewer maintenance, road repairs...

For all the anti-union trolls out there, try studying the reason unions were formed in the first place. Accept that the 40 hour work week, week ends, holidays, safety programs, living wages, in fact, to a large degree, the middle class would not exist if it weren't for unions. The decline of unions parallels the decline of the middle class. I understand that unions, to a degree have been their own worst enemy but unions have been key to much of the prosperity enjoyed by the broader segment of this country.

If you are anti-union, explain the long term benefits we will get from a lower wages, no benefits, work till you die, shut up and breath that poison, mentality? Do we really want a country where everyone makes minimum wage? How do you reconcile minimum wage jobs with the cost of education, maintenance of utilities, public safety services and on and on...our whole society WILL crash and burn if the continual degradation of the middle class continues. The top ten percent cannot possibly inspire or force the bottom 90 percent to work for nothing. Oh, they may get away with it for a while, but such inequality IS the inspiration for mass revolt and it WILL happen at some point!

sighber....when are you running for president? You have my vote.

sighber

I worked as a manager for the FAA for over 30 years, and the unions in the US Gov't can not negotiate for wages or benefits like some state and local public service unions do. The problem with the public service unions in the US Government is the obstructionist behavior that blocks getting the job done. When the placement of a water cooler or the color of wall paint becomes an issue then unions have too much power and have it too damn good and need to be reined in, and that is the way it is now. It is not the hourly wage so much as it is the loss of efficiency and flexibility when having to deal with some thuggish, obnoxious, union rep just to get the day to day job done. If the American people want their tax dollars blown dealing with these cry babies and asswipes then I guess that is just the way it is. Besides I am retired now.

India is just coming out of 3rd world status. We're not. Yet we do not have a plan to use solar energy on homes being built or retro-fitted using tax credits or a jobs plan to use the Sun to power a large portion of our homes energy use and send it back to the grid when not needed.

It's insanity to built homes without a plan for being self-sufficient for it's energy needs.

A job program using block grants to make homes truly energy efficient is of course not in the best interests of the oil/gas/coal industries.

Silly me, thinking that this might be a way of creating middle class jobs that can't be outsourced and taking many people off the unemployment lines. Or make a plan to use all those returning Veterans who don't have a hope in hell of decent employment, setting up homes with solar systems with Pell grant type funding for the homeowner.

But I'm just some crazy old lady living in the upper midwest who doesn't know a damn thing about global warming or the benefits of non polluting forms of powering our homes.

"They (politicians) talk about big ticket reforms but can't get something as essential as power supply right,"

This is why the government should not control everything. Health care anyone...?

@sighber

unions...have been key to much of the prosperity enjoyed by the broader segment of this country.

The same case could be made for slavery once upon a time, perhaps we should bring that back too. It took us far too lang to wake up and realize the negative consequences of that action and we have the same problem currently with support of unions.

If you are anti-union, explain the long term benefits we will get from a lower wages, no benefits, work till you die, shut up and breath that poison, mentality?

Those issues are now all prevented by LAW, so what did we need the unions for again?

Do we really want a country where everyone makes minimum wage?

WTF are you talking about? Less than 5% of the workforce earn min wage or less and only 12% of those who don't are union. So 83% of the workforce are non-union but still make more than the current min. The idea that unions prevent us from all earning min wage is friggin ludicrous. The only thing the min wage does is keep under-educated, unskilled workers from getting their foot in the door and proving they are capable employees despite their disadvantages.

Terry,

I started as a union employee and ended as a non-union manager, so I've seen both sides of the issue and I agree with you! I had to deal with some issues the union backed that really DID impact the day to day work and as a manager I resented that. Unions, as I pointed out in my original post, can be their own worst enemy but I also understand that they are required to represent the employee, even when they may not completely agree or risk being sued.

Some things to think about.

Even with India's huge population, they only use about a quarter of what the US uses.

On a per person basis, we individuals in the US use almost 14 times as much power as those individual India citizens.

India's power consumption growth rate has a lot to do with being overstretched. Their demand has been almost doubled what it was just 2 decades ago. Infrastructure like power generation and transmission take time to build. Add the short term demand increases like lack of adequate rain and they are easily pushed over to the edge.

We flirt on the edge of disaster too right here in the US. Many parts of the grid are overtaxed already and relatively little is being done to improve the situation. As Waldo points out, there are a number of issues that contribute to that. Our growth rate isn't as fast as India's, but when you talk about the actual quantities of power consumed, our growth and India's growth are quite nearly the same. It is the quantitative aspect of demand that requires the infrastructure. We're not keeping up either.

Our grid is old any in many cases hasn't been maintained as well as it should be. There aren't enough properly trained linemen either. Part of why it takes so long to deal with storm damage. And storm damage is something that seems to be on the rise as we see more troublesome weather.

As has been pointed out the coal issue as being political in nature is outdated. Coal will eventually go away simply based on economics. But that is a good thing environmentally too. We do need some national strategy though, and things like upgrading the grid might be better accomplished as a government driven effort rather than pure market based. A simple policy like making new added generating capacity be from green based methods so any growth would be in environmentally freindly ways.

The US is pretty wasteful when it comes to energy. You can see this in the per capita usage numbers compared to other moderb countries. But in some respects that also provides us with a lot of opportunity to become more efficient users. We have room to save a lot without really giving up anything. That saves money too not just in direct cost but also in the long term costs too.

India and the US are far different countries, but it would be wise to recognize that we might learn something from the issues they are facing.

Moonie,

Please look up the actual cost of your proposed solar panel aray. Granted building it in to a new home is cheaper than a retro fit, but still. Also a person or family buying a home is by definition fairly well to do.

How clean do you think it is mining all the minerals needed to build solar panels? How about wind turbines? Did you know that most of those materials come from the same countries that have oil?

We will see the same thing happening here very soon.

Here's your extra dose of paranoia for breakfast.

Backcountry,

Your response to my post is a bit of stretch isn't it? Laws prevent low wages? Laws prevent people from having to work till they die? Laws prevent miners from dying of black lung disease? BS!

YOU have an agenda, perhaps you earn a low wage or pay low wages to your employees, perhaps you are someone who cannot think for themselves and so buys into the lazy civil servant/union worker scenario or perhaps you are just a bitter envious individual, in any case your assertions are ludicrous and fly in the face of the obvious!

Go study the origin of unions, figure out the relationship between union activism and the many nice things we take for granted in this country. BTW, unions have been instrumental in reducing work related injuries and deaths. Employers in pre-union times commonly disregarded employee health and safety in the name of profits (this is what drove workers to form unions).

What do we hear advocated now days? Smaller government, no unions, on the pretext that these things are stifling job creation/competition in a global economy. What kind of jobs do you suppose would be created in the absence of unions or government regulation? CRAPPY, LOW WAGE, NO BENEFIT, work till you die, breath that poison and shut up about it JOBS! The kind of jobs corporations are creating all over the world. Are we supposed to throw away our decent paying jobs so we can compete in a global economy? How about we hold other countries accountable for allowing global capitalists to exploit their populations and environments? Either they play by the same work and environmental rules we do or face tariffs or even boycotts! How about we think before we buy the foreign brand to save a buck? How about we support American workers! How about trying to understanding the relationship between decent pay and corresponding higher taxes that support the essentials of a modern society?

Here's a novel idea, how about the wealthiest and corporations actually PAY taxes commensurate with their income/profit?

Instead of attacking union workers, workers who have fought for benefits that YOU likely take for granted, how about attacking unfair trade agreements or an unfair tax code, or an unfair system of government where the wealthiest few actually buy the power elected officials wield!

This outage may continue unabated. After all, who do the Indians call for technical support when their world is falling apart?

It's boolsheet, I tell you!

If you are a supporter of the GOP, it does kind of speak to the efficacy of a Romney/Jindal ticket:

Vote Romney! If he's outsourced, his replacement is just down the street, not half a world away!

@sighber

Your response to my post is a bit of stretch isn't it? Laws prevent low wages? Laws prevent people from having to work till they die? Laws prevent miners from dying of black lung disease? BS!

Oh wait, I thought you were discussing reforms put in place by unions, not things that occur still EVEN WITH UNIONS. So I'll ask again, what was the purpose of unions again? Other than to collect dues and elect politicians that is.

Unions have outlived their usefulness and have actually flipped positions. Now it is the unions controlled by the greedy SOB's who will destroy anyone and anything that cuts into their bottom line. Or haven't you noticed all of the towns teetering on the edge of bankruptcy saddled with pensions any fool could see were unsustainable? They have literally become the things they were formed to fight against. Only blind puppets fail to see this now as they yammer on about the glory days and all of the wonderful protections we all enjoy because they existed 100 years ago. Please join the rest of us in the present.

As I said, 83% of the workforce does just fine without any union support. A fact pro-union puppets just don't want to talk about which is why they all just ignore it every time it is mentioned.

Actually the regulations that started to kill off coal were enacted under G.W. Bush. The reason that coal plants are being retired is that it's cheaper to build and run natural gas plants than it is to build new coal plants or retrofit old ones with scrubbers, which, along with being mandated by law under the previous administration, are necessary if you don't want entire communities damaged by acid rain and other nice stuff that falls from the sky for miles around a coal fired power plant. Thanks for spouting off and not knowing anything. Thanks for blaming the president for something else he had nothing to do with. He's not the King. Study the 3 branches of government one day, figure out their purposes, and maybe your next argument will hold water.

@mike-v3

Actually the regulations that started to kill off coal were enacted under G.W. Bush.

??????????

Thanks for spouting off and not knowing anything

ROTFLMAO! You should probably get some facts for yourself before you criticize others for not knowing anything.

It was H.W. Bush that revised the Clean Air Act NOT G.W. Bush. Bush the second tried to block some of the EPA ability to limit emissions from power plants but was prevented from doing so by a lawsuit brought by environmental groups.

"Under the Clean Air Act, the EPA was required to control hazardous air pollutants from power plants by December 2002. Instead, the Bush administration asked Congress to eliminate that requirement.Unable to win Congressional support for that request, the Bush EPA tried to declare that the required pollution controls were not necessary or appropriate.

The federal appeals court in the District of Columbia unanimously rejected that attempt in February 2008, saying that the power industry remained subject to the requirement to control the air toxics it emits, and EPA remains responsible for issuing rules governing those emissions.

Following that court victory, environmental and public health groups filed a lawsuit to compel EPA to issue its long overdue toxic air regulations." - http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2009/2009-10-26-091.html

...are necessary if you don't want entire communities damaged by acid rain and other nice stuff that falls from the sky for miles around a coal fired power plant.

Something tells me these communities would rather have the jobs provided by that power plant than have their air cleaner by a near immeasurable amount. But of course liberals don't actually care what people want, they will tell you what is best for you and then force in on you whether you want it or not.

Yep, and here we have ol bat ears pushing for solar, wind and praying for power to keep ouir lights on....i can hardly wait till the u.s. is as progressive and modern as communist china and India....better stock up on candles and stick matches....

backcountry,

1. I NEVER EVER claimed that unions were necessary to prevent us ALL from making minimum wage.

2. Your assertion that 83% of the population is non-union and doing just fine indicates that somehow you have intimate knowledge of how well the 83% are doing.

3. You assume that the 83% who are doing so well without unions wouldn't be better off if unions were bargaining on their behalf.

Earning something above minimum wage doesn't mean these people are doing "Just fine". If the average wage in our country is $19.00 then the cost of groceries, health care insurance, auto insurance, housing, education, car payments, utilities, entertainment are figured in then the amount left over for saving for retirement = what?

Lets do some math,

19.00 * 160 = 3040

Let's say taxes on this amount to 12% income

3040 * 12% = $364.80

3040 - 364.80 = 2675.20

groceries per month = 400.00

2675 - 400 = 2275

housing 1000 per month

2275 - 1000 = 1275

health insurance 500 per month

1275 - 500 = 775

car insurance 100 per month

1275 - 100 = 675

utilities 200 per month

675 - 200 = 475

other deductions on paychecks commonly taken include SSI which conservatively I'll estimate at 40 per month

475 - 40 = 435

cell phone? 50 per month

435 - 50 = 385

Internet high speed 50 per month

385 - 50 = 335

clothing 25 per month

335 - 25 = 310

gasoline for a car 150 per month - that's roughly three tanks of fuel or a tank filled every 10 days

310 - 150 = 160

car payment? NO WAY that's going to happen

take some college courses? No WAY!

Save for retirement? NOPE!

Buy gifts for love ones? Sure, at the dollar store.

Sure, the numbers are fictitious but they are fairly conservative and 19.00 per hour is roughly the average wage in this country today. Could people spend less than 400 per month for food? Sure, eat beans and rice, drink water! Could people get by without a car? Sure, use public transportation, of course most of the country lives in areas where public transportation is out of the question and most people like to eat the foods they enjoy, but that's okay, they're doing just fine. After all, they're making more than minimum wage! Fore-go health-care insurance? Sure thing but get sick and build enough debt in a two week period that you couldn't earn enough if you worked the rest of your life to pay it off!

Unions have out lived their usefulness? Only to those too young to understand their origins. Try asking the millions of unemployed in this country how happy they are that when they are out looking for work it is difficult to find jobs that pay living wages. Your assertion that 83% of the population is doing just fine is proof that you have no clue at ALL about how much it costs to live AND build wealth, and be able to retire BEFORE your health forces you to!

You are probably one of the younger generation that also believes it is no longer necessary to vaccinate your children. After all, NOBODY gets SMALLPOX anymore! Little kids don't die of pertussis anymore either. That's why, in my state pertussis is at epidemic levels and there is a push on for adults to get vaccinated.

Those who forget the lessons history teaches are bound to travel paths that cause history to repeat itself.

@sighber

So basically you're just going to ignore all of the problems caused by unions since you didn't address any of them. Bias is a hard thing to break I suppose.

Those who forget the lessons history teaches are bound to travel paths that cause history to repeat itself.

Again with this failed argument. All of the positive things brought about by unions happened decades ago and are now a matter of law. You can yammer until your face turns blue about wages but that is only ONE SIDE of the equation. How many companies have gone under because when the economy turns down or they lose business they are stuck with union contracted wages that they can't afford? Guess what, if you aren't making enough money where you're at START LOOKING FOR A DIFFERENT JOB! Duh! Clearly you lack the ability to objectively look at things from every angle, you started out pro union decades ago and now you refuse to see that they have gotten out of control.

You are probably one of the younger generation that also believes it is no longer necessary to vaccinate your children.

Deep down you know I'm right which is why you've pulled this gem out of the clear blue sky in an effort to discredit me in your own mind. "He can't be right, he doesn't even vaccinate his kids for cryin out loud". Give me a break, LOL!

Bias is a hard thing to break? NO, willfully ignorant people are hard to educate!

You say I ignored all the problems unions are responsible for? How about you go back and read my posts.

I began my career as a union employee. I WAS union for 22 years. The final 8 years of my career were spent as a NON-UNION manager of UNION employees. I possess knowledge based on real world experience. What I know isn't taught in school. Yes unions can be their own worst enemy, yes union contracts have made it difficult for employers to deal with financial issues but unions have also agreed to fore-go wage increases, have even agreed to reduce wages and benefits when a company is struggling.

You accuse me of ignoring the issues? Why did you ignore my math?

You claim 83% of the population is doing just fine without unions. Let's see here 83% - 8.2% who are unemployed (a deliberately understated figure provided by politicians focused on re-election) = 74.8%. Now let's think about the AVERAGE wage. $19.00 an hour is roughly the average wage in this country. Though it may not be a perfect way to view it, the average could be considered a divider with half the workforce above that number and half below it. Since I already gave a lesson that indicates that earning 19.00 an hour would make it hard to forge a prosperous life, perhaps you want to re-consider what you think is JUST FINE! 83%??? BS! How about LESS than 50% are doing just fine? Let's say 49%? Figures lie and liars figure but at least my rough numbers are based on some real world knowledge.

Bias is a hard thing to break? Take a look in the mirror if you want to see what one of the most biased and willfully ignorant people in the country looks like!

You claim 83% of the population is doing just fine without unions. Let's see here 83% - 8.2% who are unemployed (a deliberately understated figure provided by politicians focused on re-election) = 74.8%.

83% of the WORK FORCE, if you're unemployed you're obviously not a part of the WORK force. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm Also 40k/ year is a decent living in many parts of the country, I wish I was making that much now. and when exactly did, high speed Internet, cell phones and expensive cars (I pay 60/ for full coverage on a 8 year old SUV) become necessities for life? You are going to go without a car, education and retirement so you can have high speed net and a cell phone. Those are the things you think are most important? Really? Talk about feeling entitled! Or did you just need to pad your numbers a little bit when you realized they weren't coming out the way you thought they would. Next post why don't you come back with some ACTUAL facts and figures instead of a bunch of drivel that you've literally pulled right out of your ass.

And again you've failed to address any of the problems other than some vague generalizations. It's as if you can't comment on them specifically because you really have no clue, which I'm sure is the case. What about businesses that can't afford to pay 19/? What should they do? If you aren't making enough at your current job why can't you look for a better one? What the @!$%# is it with people like you who seem to believe there is someone out there who owes you a job and owes you whatever wage you think you need to live? If you don't like what a business is doing GO SOMEWHERE ELSE as soon as you can. duh

Take a look in the mirror if you want to see what one of the most biased and willfully ignorant people in the country looks like!

Ditto for you except you can add hypocrite to the list of things you'll see there.

No one could possibly address ALL the problems you've got!

Definitely, it's like comparing Walmart clothes to Versace.

How dare you? Wal-Mart makes a high quality product. lol

Conservative SNOBS! My wife and I are on a fixed income as Seniors and can barely afford clothes so we do buy them from Walmart. Go ahead and make fun of them, someday you may have no choice either.

Balls, perhaps in hindsight, you should have saved more? Rather than rely upon the government to aid you in your elderly years? Your generation wanted Social Security and now youre living with what you wanted.

Everyone who has a job is on a fixed income. I know I cant get a raise at will.

Balls: ONe reason Wally clothes are less are the fabric is lower quality (you need to replace them more frequently (or look like an unmade bed ) and they use child labor and indentured workers to crank that junk out. Your prediction that we will all be there is not one I'll argue with. Although I will resist as I search for quality instead of cheap prices.

thatguydownsouth,

Perhaps "Balls" saved and saved the best part of his life like many of us, old and young, did...only to see the hadr worked for nest egg shattered during the financial collapse caused by the incestuous marriage of Wall Street & Washington DC.

I'm wondering if the good folks in India have to call a cusomer service center in Omaha, Nebraska to complain about their power being out...ahhh, that would be such sweet irony

Come on people. You arent locked into a retirement plan. For instance, turn off your tv. Take the 100 bucks a month you'd pay for your premium tv package and invest it into Govt bonds at 5%. After 30 years youll have 82,000. Just that 82000 will give you an extra $4,100 a year in supplemental income. More than enough to stay out of the Walmart clothes department. Double that to 200 a month set aside and youll have 166K for retirement. STOP wasting money on stupid crap and save for your future!!! Our forefathers knew this! At what generation was the idea of saving for retirement in favor of cable tv lost on us?

K Man nobody lost their retirement portfolios in the crash unless either they A) Invested in companies that bankrupted B)Panicked and sold their shares at a loss. The market is down, but still there. You may only have 300K in your portfolio now as opposed to 700K...but when the market turns around youll once again have 700K. You dont lose unless you sell or the company files bankruptcy.

India is an awful country, and their fiscal spending has neglected infrastructure for years. It's viewed as secondary to their role as a service economy. But service requires power, and power requires infrastructure. Duuuh.

And their brahmins and 'middle class' do OK on the back of 1 billion poor, who can go @!$%# themselves.

And if you were thrown into early retirement due to downsizing as a result of the collapse...and haven't been able to get decent full time work since then...not everybody had $700K stashed away at the time of the crash, some have been forced to life on what was left after the fall.

Invested regularly & wisely, didn't cash out, didn't invest in companies that went bankrupt, have a sane mortgage on a modest house and still took it in the shorts - both in home and investment value thanks to Wall St & DC. Thankfully, my wife and I at least had jobs that weathered the storm fairly well. For now anyway.

Your assumption that one doesn't lose unless one sells or a company files for bankruptcy is flawed.

I can't tell the difference from Walmart clothes or Ralph Lauren, I do know they both use the same sweat shop in Shenzhen. Both are cheap in my eyes. It's funny how people think the quality is much better because some sweat shop employee sewn in the Ralph Lauren tag.

@Balls to the Wall

Conservative SNOBS! My wife and I are on a fixed income as Seniors...

Conservative snobs? Look again, those were liberals mocking you for shopping at Wal-Mart.

Thrown into early retirement? Wow. You arent retired until you have the ability to support yourself without a job, the word you were searching for is unemployed.

Balls, perhaps in hindsight, you should have saved more? Rather than rely upon the government to aid you in your elderly years? Your generation wanted Social Security and now youre living with what you wanted.

@thatguydownsouth - Didn't your mother raise you to never disrespect your elders? What if some young know-it-all tells you someday that you should have known better than to rely on a 401K, or whatever other vehicle you use to prepare for retirement? You're dissing an entire generation of people who never heard of 401K's and were duped into thinking that social security WAS what you were paying into for retirement.

That was a low blow. Shame on you.

Balls to the Walls:

You sound like a cranky old Senior. Cheer up--life is short.

What happened to the NCOH?. People commenting, putting others down, name calling for their since comments. NBC? The board is out of control. No decorum for a debate. Where is Tyler and Sally as the Moderators?

India. What a mess----the over 200 miners are most likely gone; suffocating. Hoping India can survive the heat attack. Now that is misery.

J. Hicks, why should I respect the generation that has left my generation with a complete pile of dog shi* to live with. Now we have to spend the rest of our lives cleaning it up....if there are even enough of us that care.

I hope you sleep soundly at night knowing your generation took your parents America and broke it, bankrupted it, raped it then handed it to us then call us ungrateful.

What crumbling US infrastructure? I travel all over the country. The Interstates are in great condition. California roads SUCK. Some municipalities have lousy roads. If YOUR roads are awful, try showing up at a city council meeting sometime to discuss how they spend YOUR tax dollars. Stop playing the victim.

And before you even consider comparing us to India, try going there.

Conservative SNOBS! My wife and I are on a fixed income as Seniors and can barely afford clothes so we do buy them from Walmart. Go ahead and make fun of them, someday you may have no choice either.

Funny, I am conservative, and since I am, I buy many of my clothes from Walmart as well. I'm conservative!

What crumbling US infrastructure? I travel all over the country. The Interstates are in great condition. California roads SUCK

Funny you say that, I went to CA for a visit a couple years ago and I was shocked at the condition of the freeways. That state is sinking fast.

I find it amusing how many think that the statement "it's like comparing Walmart clothes to Versace" is somehow an insult to people who buy clothing at Walmart.

I don't understand why people buy designer clothing on a regular basis except to try to impress the rest of us. My clothing from WalMart, Sears, Kohls and Kroeger work just fine.

I'm with you, Laura. Seems we have a few self-righteous folks here.

Consignment stores are better then Walmart. Speaking of fixed incomes......

Listen to "thatguydownsouth" bawl like a child. Life is hard, whaaaa ! How'd you like to be 18 in 1966 though 1971 and know when you graduate HS you stand a good chance of being sent to Vietnam ? And they were flying planes back daily loaded with dead. You sniveling little crybaby. Every genration has it's shiesters, crooks, carnies and a**hol*s. So what? Word is 25% of all the 20 somethings cheated in school and lie on their resume's. You think those cheaters are your future? Yes they are. They'll be your docotr, lawyer and banker. You're screwed but it didn't come from the old guys who've been working all their lives. You don't like it, form a group and go after the actual crooks stealing money and opportunity. Where do you look? Willie sutton says: look where the money is.

@thatguydownsouth - Honestly, this isn't just about baby boomers. It took an entire country to get where we are. Plenty of people either purchased homes they couldn't possibly afford, or used their homes like ATM's. American's went crazy on easy credit. History showed us what would happen, but most Americans chose to ignore the lessons of the past, i.e. the roaring 20's and the Great Depression that followed. Trying to blame one age group of people is simply pointing fingers and wanting to have someone to blame. There is plenty of blame to go around in all age groups. The baby boomers just happen to have a lot more people in their age group. And true, they definately didn't help the situation.

If you can live with the lights going out when the sun isn't shining, that is.

denver bill2, ever hear of storage batteries for solar? Your point is invalid. There is much we could do to improve our grid and move to cleaner sources of energy production, but the status quo is what the conservatives want, and what we need is a nationwide effort to move into the 21st. century, and become leaders of a new wave of technologies, cleaner, cheaper, and safer. Time to get serious about new ways to generate energy for our future and our children's futures.

michelle-1073610

denver bill2, ever hear of storage batteries for solar?

Why, yes I have. As soon as you figure out a way to make storage batteries without using coal or natural gas, a way to transport them to the solar energy plants without using gasoline or diesel, and a way to dispose of them that doesn't pollute the environment, give me a cal ... we'll make billions. And, by the way, do you have any idea how many batteries it will take to run the power grid during the night? Of course not ... you're an "idea" person. The pesky details need to be worked out by people who actually think for a living.

A possible solution is in a place no one looks ... nanotubes. Research is ongoing to build a lightweight but extremely strong cable built from these tiny things. If this can be accomplished, and it's a big if, we can build the "space elevator." Once you have that capability, all you need is a huge solar collector in space, where the sun shines 24/7. The electricity can be sent down along the cable and presto, all the clean free energy you need.

Solar power is great but not without cost ... including environmental cost. Yes, a solar panel array appears to create no pollution ... but it does. At this moment, enormous areas of China are being laid waste by the poisonous byproducts from the manufacture of solar panels.

Does this mean we should not use solar energy? It does not, it is simply a reminder that no action is without cost and consequence. It means reasonable discourse and wise choices are required.

How about just starting a simple fire or use kerosene lamps

Solar power is the way to go once it becomes cost effective. To cut your bills in half each month you would need a very large setup with a very high price tag. You would only start seeing a true savings after 10-20 years after you managed to pay off the loan for the solar setup. Same problem with hybrid cars. Great ideas, but not cost effective yet.

...or maybe whale blubber.

Common Sense Ed,

I agree that nanotubes are and excellent idea and if they ever come to fruition then it will be great. The problem with the huge solar collector in space though is that you will still have a shaded period of 8-12 hours with little to no production. Now if there are many of them strung together around the equator you can limit that, but will it be enough to power the world? You cannot put them on the north or south poles as I am sure you know you need the centripetal force to keep tension in the nanotube cables.

denver bill 2,

"The pesky details need to be worked out by people who actually think for a living."

Actually, we need two kinds of people to solve this problem: visionaries who can see the big picture and technicians to work out the details of it. Some people can't see the forest for the trees, and others can't see the trees for the forest.

ProFreedom,

"How about just starting a simple fire or use kerosene lamps"

That's probably not such a bad idea. Mankind has lived for hundreds of thousands of years without electricity, and now we have become totally dependent on it for our survival. Ted Kaczinsky (the "Uni-bomber") may have been crazy, but I think he made a good point in his manifesto when he said we become dependent on our technology.

@ DenverBill 2:

Why, yes I have. As soon as you figure out a way to make storage batteries without using coal or natural gas, a way to transport them to the solar energy plants without using gasoline or diesel, and a way to dispose of them that doesn't pollute the environment, give me a cal ... we'll make billions. And, by the way, do you have any idea how many batteries it will take to run the power grid during the night? Of course not ... you're an "idea" person. The pesky details need to be worked out by people who actually think for a living.

You sir are one condescending A-hole, not to mention dead flat wrong. The creation and employment of power storage and distribution systems is PART OF THE EXISTING infrastructure here in the United States. The solar power debate is about the CREATION of electric power at a cost comparable to that of more traditional methods.

You mock someone for being an "idea person", and then tout the values of someone who "actually works for a living". Sounds like a typical Republican. Again I say, A-HOLE to you sir. So was Edison just an "idea person"? How about Einstein? Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? Next time, before you take the ENTIRE WORLD for granted, reflect on how we got here - both for the better and for the worse. You might not sound like quite the douche next time you voice your opinion on things.

99octane,

"Again I say, A-HOLE to you sir. So was Edison just an "idea person"?"

While I agree with your post, isn't addressing someone as "A-HOLE" and "sir" in the same sentence a contradiction in terms? :)

Agree with #2.11. A lot of tech goodies that are deemed 'essentials' and are used everyday without a thought are just so unnecessary. Don't know what Ted k said, but this kind of blind dependence on technology is ridiculous, if you stop and think just a little; tech is so over-rated. Not sure about kerosene, but solar energy looks like a hugely wasted source to me. A bit more research effort into it might make a big difference (though it might mean the oil tycoons would have to work a real job to make money)

tes,

"Don't know what Ted k said, but this kind of blind dependence on technology is ridiculous"

Thanks. Ted Kaczhinsky said in his manifesto that he sent to the New York Times in June, 1995, that a society becomes dependent on its own technology. I don't know what that has to do with sending people bombs in the mail, but I thought he made a very good point there. I read a book about him called Mad Genius which contained his manifesto. He also says in the introduction to his manifesto:

"The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who will live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have lead to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation."

He seems to have been a modern-day "Luddite". But there is no denying the truth of his statement that we become dependent on our technology. Just think of the disaster that would ensue if all electricity were to disappear altogether. Banking and financial institutions would no longer function, hospitals would no longer be able to care for patients, we wouldn't have any food or water, much less lights, in our homes, emergency services would not longer be able to operate, etc., and none of that was the case just 150 years ago.

99octane

@ DenverBill 2:

You sir are one condescending A-hole, not to mention dead flat wrong.

As is so common here, you have done a great job of name-calling. And I will admit to being condescending at times. That was the easy part. Now comes the hard part. You assert that I am dead flat wrong. Prove your point.

solar works with $8/gal deisel. Provided the solar parts prices don't skyrocket because it takes $8 deisel to ship 'em. There is no evidence that solar pays for itself before it needs to be recapitalized (replaced). Stuff is just not efficient enough to compete with fossil fuel. Cheap stuff has to be replaced too soon, well made stuff has a 17 to 20 year payback cycle. Course if fossil fuel disappears, you'll need solar, wind, wtaer turbines in rivers and on the beaches and nuke til you glow and still can't make up for all the enrgy loss from fossil drying up. Right now, we have to tax somebody and give the money to solar companies and customers to "help" them with their expenses or they wouldn't touch the stuff. That right there proves it's a loser. But let nat gas and oil products double or triple in price and solar will be viable - but only because fossil fuel disappears.

IReadyou,

"There is no evidence that solar pays for itself before it needs to be recapitalized (replaced). Stuff is just not efficient enough to compete with fossil fuel. Cheap stuff has to be replaced too soon, well made stuff has a 17 to 20 year payback cycle."

That's why we always let the rich be the first to try out new technology when it is still so expensive. Then, after they have bought enough of it, the price comes down, and the rest of us poor slobs can afford it. That's the way it has always been with new technology. I don't know if you are old enough to remember when color TV's first came out in the late 1950's or early 1960's. They were very expensive, and it was mostly only the wealthier folks who could afford them, but as time went by the price came down to where almost everyone could afford one. The same thing is happening now with the big flat screen HD TV's. Always let the rich buy it first, then when it becomes cheap enough, you can afford it, too. So let the rich buy solar panels until they drive the price down and the quality up. Then buy them.

I hope you are right, Mickey. But hope is not a plan. Still therich only touch the stuff because the gubmint deficit spends by borrowing from China or taxing someone to redirect the money to the solar customers/suppliers. The rich are not actually buying the stuff with their own money. That did not happen with color TV and your other examples. Because the folks in the business see the gubmint as their profit guarantor they don't have to make it more efficient and therefore economically viable. So it stays out of reach. Now if the rich bought the stuff as a straight unsubsidized purchase, you could pull in your free market analysis and draw comparisons. But that's not the way it is anymore. They've socialised the business.

IReadyou,

Gubmint?

Gubmint is the phonetic spelling of Pres. Ronny Reagan's pronunciation. And through onomatopoeia I believe is the correct use. So for these 2 reasons I prefer gubmint over the other.

Pres Carter always called it "NuKUlar" even though he has an engineering degree in Nuclear science. But I was nevr attracted to his mispronunciation because it seems just wrong.

But Reagan's "gubmint" just sounds like the thing to do. Seems descriptive doesn't it.

"Pres Carter always called it "NuKUlar""

Bush also pronounced it "nukular", and so did I when I was a little kid until I learned the correct pronunciation. Actually, I think "nukular" could be a dialectical variation, although Webster's does not list it as such. There are at least four major dialects of American English, according to Webster's Dictionary, although I have seen as many as eight mentioned elsewhere: Northern, North Midland, South Midland, and Southern, but they tend to get mixed up together because of population movement.

Mickey, there are rules for pronouncing the language. Rules for sentence structure, use of words, spelling etc. Doing it wrong is not an accent. American English did not have dialects a few decades ago. But a few decades ago we did start a serious dumbing down of our education system. I think your acceptance of mispronunciation by re-ordering the letters in them as a "dialect " is part of the dumbing down phenom. I mention Carter because he has a higher education in nuclear science and above all should know better. I recognize Pres Bush says it wrong as well but I never figured he was educated. He says he spent his time at Yale being drunk and doing drugs. HIs daddy got him through school and out of Vietnam. I do not regard him as educated. Therefore his incorrect pronunciations are merely a shame. I spell "gubmint" on purpose for the reasons stated. I will not defend it as a dialect. Doing it wrong and calling it a dialect is a hallmark feature of dumbing down. " Aks" me another question !

IReadyou,

"Mickey, there are rules for pronouncing the language. Rules for sentence structure, use of words, spelling etc. Doing it wrong is not an accent. American English did not have dialects a few decades ago. But a few decades ago we did start a serious dumbing down of our education system. I think your acceptance of mispronunciation by re-ordering the letters in them as a "dialect " is part of the dumbing down phenom."

That is utter nonsense. If you knew anything at all about the science of linguistics, you would know that every language in the world has dialects, and the English language has and has always had dialects just like any other language. Even the English spoken in England is not homogeneous. There are many different dialects spoken in England. You say the English language never had dialects until a few decades ago. Well, I am 62 years old and dialects of English have certainly existed all my life. You should find yourself a good book on linguistics and read it to find out how languages really work. I could recommend The Story of Language by Mario Pei as a good introduction to general linguistics. It's written to appeal to the general reader so it is not too technical. As for the English language in particular, there are many good books. The Roots of English by Robert Clairborn has a good introduction on the historical development of the English language, but the author doesn't deal specifically with the subject of dialects. Another good popular introduction to the science of linguistics is The Way of Language, but I can't remember the author's name right now. If you do a little reading in linguistics, you will find that every language has always had dialects. You may be right about our education system being "dumbed down", but the existence of dialects has nothing to do with that. It is just the way languages work and how they develop. Leave you rules to the English teachers. Their is a big difference between descriptive grammar and prescriptive grammar.

Rules for the language are utter nonsense ? You are a product of the dumbing downers. Sorry about that. You think that other languages have dialects so we must have them too. Not true. Go find some 70 or 80 year old English teachers and ask them when they were teaching a few decades ago if there were dialects in American English. Accents are not dialects. Mispronunciations are not dialects. Morphing is natural and always happens. Slang acceptance is natural and happens all the time. "R U tweeting me". None of this is a dialect. When someone says "nu-ku-lar" or "I aks his name" that is not a dialect. That is just wrong.

IReadyou,

"Rules for the language are utter nonsense ? You are a product of the dumbing downers. Sorry about that. You think that other languages have dialects so we must have them too. Not true."

I know very well what a dialect is. I have been studying languages and linguistics since I was a teenager and can read 8 languages and am a college graduate so I don't think I am a product of "dumbing down". I would advise you to go learn something about languages first, and then you can come back and argue with me if you like. I already suggested in my previous post some good books you might want to read on the subject, but I can't read them for you. You'll have to do that yourself. Right now you are just making me mad.

generators will keep the power on so you can stay connected to your Tech Support system.

That's too bad.

While it's true that Data centers have backup generators, everything else needs power too. Data communications for lines back to the US, phones, etc. etc. Generators are for short term back up...if this goes too long..some generators will also crash. I hope the US companies who off shored their data centers and call centers to India are really sweating right now ...and maybe some will rethink their willingness to offshore more of out jobs...and perhaps bring data centers "back home" to the good old USA....and creating more jobs back here by re-hiring people they laid off. And re: expanding our grids and capabilities...in NJ...the power companies want to expand their transmission capacity for the increased demand....which means taller towers on their existings right of ways. But environmentalists..and the " not in my backyard" people have been causing delays to this very needed effort.

Isn't India a place where if you want power in your house you steal some wire, climb the pole and tap into the service line and you're done. All the free power you want until you and everyone in the hood overload it and cause a cascading general system failure. Try taping into the system in the US and the cops are on you like flies on stink. But in India they haven't figured out that assets need to be protected. We include that in our cost base, they don't. We use qualified engineers, they don't - that costs us money up front but we don't have the collapse (yet ) they've had. The everyman for himself - get a generator and laff at power outages is a stupid strategy. The fumes and poison from all the fule being burned in inefficient small generators would be impossible to toerate. Mo betta we should build and maintain a proper grid, protect it, charge the customers a fair rate and jail the cheaters.

LOL!

Aye, my Lady MacBeth. :-)

For your information: most Indians have one or two children by choice. Hindus marry one spouse for life, and usually produce only one or two children. Among all my cousins (who are educated, and upper-middle class ), all have one child per couple. However, the muslims think they are too special to follow the civil law which hindus and christians abide by. A muslim man can have up to three wives at a time. They do reproduce a lot faster.

As far as the ability of Indians to speak English----when the British were ruling India for about 300 years, they set up EXACTLY the same educational system that they have in jolly old England. (Indian civilization is more than 8000 years old, and there was an ancient system in place before----the British just set up a modern system).

The Indian educational system is light years beyond anything they have here. I went through an exclusive private "prep" school and University here in the USA. Even with a high IQ, I could not pass a high school exam in India.

India's educational system is seriously lacking. 25% of the population is illiterate. Only 15% of it's students make it to high school and out of that, only 7% graduate high school. The quality of their primary and higher education is rated as significantly poor when compared to other developing nations.

I have no idea where you get your information that their educational system is light years better than what we have here.

@ Wiseone:

If all Hindus have a wife + 2 Kids then how the hell did India become the 2nd most populus country in the world?

Oh and the reason you coudlnt pass a high school exam in India depsite having a "high IQ" is probably because you couldnt speak 'odd gibberish' as Mary Beth pointed out :)

The reason that India is so populated is because the civilization is more than 8000 years old. (Artifacts have been found that date back 30000 years---so who knows---it may be even older). Population increases exponentially-- Years ago, folks did have more children, however, today, it is too expensive to raise and educate even one child. Hence, many couples are choosing to have only one child.

Let me clarify my prior comment---the education received by upper-middle class and upper-class students is "world class". Let me give you an example: Indian students take several languages (mandatory) and have to take several science courses at the same time all through high school. This means you would take biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics every year through high school. They only get about one month of summer vacation. They take classes six days a week. They do not have teachers who majored in "easy" majors like "education" or "English". A high school math teacher over there would have to have a masters or PhD in math. Why do you think that Indian students are able to come over to any Western nation and pass exams in medicine, engineering, etc.

Everyone says that but when the US made products come into the stores at twice the price of the Asian made ones....how many folks you think will pay more for the "Made in the USA" label? We all complain about jobs overseas but WE are the cause of that shift not the companies and WE will not do anything about it except blame the companies.

Strong agreement here. Remember Tropical Storm Irene last year? Natural disaster compounded by man-made stupidity. The utility companies did wallet biopsies on the communities without power before deciding when to restore power; some towns were without power for nearly a week, and not a National Grid truck in sight. Food stores were racking up perishables losses in excess of $250k per store, all because the utilities refused to do their jobs. It never occurred to anyone at National Grid or in state government that this storm occurred close to the first of the month, and that there would be thousands of people with no food showing up at food stores on the first to find out there's no food because there's no power. If you want riots caused entirely by greedy public utilities and state government not up to the job of disaster response; this is the way to do it. This could have been quickly remedied by shooting utility personnel on sight and shooting to kill.

India is a classic example of what happens when you over-burden a piece of infrastructure. It's called progressive failure. One part is overloaded until it fails. In the mean time, other parts of that infrastructure are trying to relieve the overload and end up becoming overloaded to the point where they also fail. The US is not immune to this, and has seen it happen before. The big test, whether it be India, the US or someone else, is when this reaches the point where large parts of a country are without power for a minimum of four to seven days. Water infrastructure will be running on backup until backup runs out. And four to seven days, without water, food supply, and a quick way to prepare food should you have a supply, is the rule of thumb where people either start to lose it completely or revert to feral behavior.

Lesson in all this: don't count on the government being up to the job of emergency management, and do count on the utilities not giving a rat's @$$ about you. Based on what I saw last year, if you follow the rule of thumb and plan for a three to four day emergency, your chances of finding yourself royally screwed increase exponentially. For the routine stuff, such as the power grid mess in India or weather events capable of major damage, your minimum emergency planning should cover one month, with two months being preferable. Never underestimate the potential of inadequate and inept emergency management response.

that's just what I was thinking, Early Grayce

and if you're planning to travel to India any time soon...a supplemental supply of oxygen is highly recommended

...or at the very minimum - a gas mask

To robbopaloobop:

There are hundreds of millions of innocent people suffering, and you make stupid wisecracks.... you suck!

India
has been bragging about being a political superpower and a military might. A
brief look will abundantly expose the facade of the Indian
economy; which will collapse at the first signs of uncertainty or
instability.

• In 2008, its external debts
  increased to around $221 billion.
• In 2007, Indian exports stood
  around $145 billion, while imports were around $217 billion; a deficit of
  $72 billion in a single year.
• India’s trade deficit was
  $117.3 billion in 2009/10, down from $118.7 billion in 2008/09. In 2010
  the deficit has mushroomed beyond reasonable levels. Reuters survey in
  April forecast the gap would widen to $132.70 billion in 2010/11 and
  $154.50 billion in 2011/12

• Bharat is one of the largest recipient of foreign aid in
  the world. The UKs biggest recipient of British aid is Bharat.
  The UK donates 500
  million Pound Sterling to Bharat every year. Many other
  countries also give foreign aid to Bharat. Bhart‘s biggest donor is Japan.
• India currently accounts for
  1.5% of World trade as of 2007. Bharat’s trade imbalance with the US
  for 2010 is -7,980.5 million or around 8 billion USD.

Bharat is one of the biggest debtor nations on the planet with public and
private debt estimated between $250 billion to $3 Trillion.

• India
  fails to distribute wealth to poor: UN Report
• India
  falls to 88th spot on World Prosperity Index
• India
  behind Pakistan and Bangladesh, on human development indices: UN Report
• Its factory output account
  for 27.6% of the GDP and employs 17% of the total workforce. Rest of the
  workforce is largely dedicated to the agriculture sector. According to a
  2008 World Bank report, 75.6% Indians live on less than $2 per day. It
  suffers from higher rates of malnutrition than Sub-Saharan Africa. Over
  70% of its population is either illiterate or educated below the primary
  level. Indian tourist industry is 1/6 of Las Vegas. Recently, Standard &
  Poor’s announced, India
  risks a downgrade from BBB-minus rating to the lowest investment-grade
  rating. Clearly, Indians are hardly in a financial shape to even
  contemplate on waging a war.
• Indian service industry
  accounts for over 55% of its GDP. Bangalore
  is called the Silicon Valley of India. A large number of Information
  Technology companies are located in the city. It is the largest
  contributor of India’s
  $33 billion IT exports (2007), .
  The Statesman. A Gill. Dec. 30th, 2008. It is at $50 billion (2010)
  in 2010 but an exponential growth faces Anti-Outsourcing laws in the US and Europe.
• ◦Hunger in India alarming! India at bottom on Hunger Index in South Asia
• ◦How long to extripate penury from india?
  300 years!
• ◦India’s budget– fit for a superpower
• Around six out of 10 Indians
  live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the
  Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $
  2 a day. According to the India’s
  planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty
  line. [World Bank's poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line
  of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day]

To Hayat:

You are clearly a Pakistani troll. Go back to your madrassa, and pray to your Allah to give you some brains.

,.