Iranian officials have threatened in the past to close the Strait of Hormuz, the neck of the Gulf through which 40 percent of the world's sea-borne oil exports pass, in retaliation for sanctions levied against its crude exports, or military action.

Such a move would risk a military response from the United States, which has built up its military presence in the Gulf.

I guess Barry telling them to play nice isn't working

Actually, a leader like Ahmadinejad doesn't necessarily need a reliable missile delivery system to create havoc in the region with nuclear weapons and it's deadly radioactive byproducts. But if Iran has managed to stockpile enough gold over the past 10 years as I suspect they have, they have the means to buy what ever technology or brain capacity they need to get to where they want to be. The only question is when will Ahmadinejad have the capacity to kill thousands and play the martyr.

Something else to think about ... if Ahmadinejad has a dirty nuclear weapon, rest assured every other radical Islamist group leader will have one, too for strategic purposes.

If you have nuclear weapons, you don't even need a good guidance system. It just has to be "close enough".

This move is to threaten us and our aircraft carriers and Allies within 180mi of Peaceful Islam Iran. They can't tolerate a country that is nearby that represents < 0.01% of dar Islam (that they covet and hate). Their Ayatollahs have made it abundantly clear. They have done everything they said that would do...All that + their obvious transparent lies. Amadinejad is a patsy. One shot = expensive hardware and 5000 dead. Time to take out Iran is now before they make lots of them. It's time install the Iron dome missle defense system on our aircraft carriers now. Too bad the chicken-dookie Russians and Chinese appear not to be true allies. Melamine dog-treats anyone?

Actually, a leader like Ahmadinejad ...

has no real control over Iran's military, missile weapons programs or foreign policy.

Familiarize yourself with Iran's government and how powers are divided you'll see that those things are controlled by the Ayatollah.

Ahmadinejad is mostly a figurehead; a puppet with the ayatollah holding the strings.

Theocratic government: its a scary thing, no?

Iran's nukes and guidance system will be able to hit some harems in Iran.

They should buy/steal them from Pakis!

What a bunch of cowards Shiites are? They talk big, act big and show their bravery before unarmed minorities like Jews, women and others. Then they add their dances when they stone them.

Shiites of Iraq should side with Kurds and should stop oil supplies to Turkey for supporting the Sunni Islamic extremists like al-Qaida, MB in Syria.

Shiites of Bahrain should overthrow their autocratic, corrupt and despotic Sunni ruler.

As they have been taking blows and killings by Sunnis, these Sunnis are able to act as they like to Shiites.

Shiites of Iran should side with Assad and see that all the Sunni rebels are eliminated.

What are the brave Hezbollah doing?

They should do suicide bombings in Mecca and Medina. Or else Shiites genocides just like the genocides of non-Muslims by the Sunni Islamic religious Nazis will continue.

Goof post @Chris. At least somebody pay attention to detail.

Some point that should have been in the article:

1) The Fateh 110 is important because it is a mature world-class tactical military missile system. It is solid sueled, which means that it is both transportable and easily set up for launch with no real warning. Liquid-fueled missiles can take days to cycle up to launch.

2) The guidance system is most likely a GPS system based on the Russian GLONASS GPS system (which is significantly more accurate that the aging American GPS system.) The previous guidance system was inertial plus electro optical, so this is s significant improvement.

3) The Fateh 110 is currently in the inventory of both the North Korean and Syrian armies. The new guidance system could be an upgrade to existing missiles, giving them pinpoint accuracy at little additional cost. It's too late for Assad, but can really put some oomph in North Korea's offensive capability.

4) The timing is about right for the "new" guidance system to have been derived from the US RQ-170 drone by reverse engineering. Virtually all of the "secrets" of the drone would have been in its stealthy characteristics and in the software/firmware in its guidance system. The latter is easily extracted and duplicated/modified. In fact, the ease of modification is how the Iranians were able to capture it intact.

5) The whole Iranian offensive capability is built around the American Achilles Heel --- too few of too expensive military systems. The Iranians have a huge array of short range reliable weapons than can overwhelm, by sheer numbers and surprise, an opponent. An aircraft carrier transiting the Straits, for example, would be easily attacked and damaged or sunk by scores to hundreds of fast torpedo/missile attack boats (which currently exist and are easily spotted on Google Earth.) The whole coast is lined with peek-and-shoot artillery and missile positions that have been hardened with the help of the North Koreans. No need for long-range weapons when you can lure your enemy close and destroy him on the beaches.

@Jonathan,

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your rants are more moronic than accurate and display only your ignorance. It is better to be quiet and be thought ignorant than to post and remove all doubt.

@vincevance,

Exactly how would Obama be to blame for the literally hundreds of fast missle/torpedo boats that Iran has??? And you think a non-Christian Mormon will do better?????? What a joke. Maybe when Romney is sworn in (NOT) on the Book of Mormon, you will understand. Ignmoprance can be fixed. Bone stupid cannot.

Republicans are the party of the oligarchy. They have the money to pay for the best propagandists and don't deserve credit for anything but evil. Tell me you don't like an African American in the White House, but don't tell me Obama's policies are what's put us in this mess.

The US is sleeping at the wheel, testing a delivery system how long is the US giong to wait?

Please keep in mind, when an aircraft carrier makes a transit like that. Their entire battle group will be with them along with their entire offensive and defensive capabilities. Most of the carrier's aircraft as well as those from other carriers and land based aircraft will either be in the air or on alert during the transit.

An attack on an aircraft carrier transiting the Strait would be sort of like the 98 lb. weakling being surrounded by a gang of body builders. He might get off one punch and, if he's really, really, lucky, might knock down one of the gang but, that would be the last thing he would ever do.

Iran is very good at bluff and bluster. They know that as long as it's just words we are unlikely to do anything. They also know that any significant military action on their part, such as an attack with anything more than small arms on a U.S. Navy vessel would, likely, result in 48 hours of hell as their military and government are completely destroyed. The shock and awe we used on Iraq would be nothing compared to what would happen if they inflicted significant damage on one of our ships.

@Chris

You said in one of your posts this.

2) The guidance system is most likely a GPS system based on the Russian GLONASS GPS system (which is significantly more accurate that the aging American GPS system.) The previous guidance system was inertial plus electro optical, so this is s significant improvement.

First I need a citation on where you get this information. The last I checked the GLONASS system was no place near as accurate as even the civilian GPS let alone the Military signal for GPS. Add to that the fact that GPS SATs are continuously replaced by more modern satellites and the continual modernization of receivers for GPS and you have a state of the art system.

Heck, I did not even mention WAAS ( wide area augmentation system ) This offers an excellent increase in accuracy to GPS.

To give an idea. I have a GPS receiver that was made in 2004. Without was corrections it is capable of giving me 2 meter accuracy. Thats my exact position with a 6 foot error. With WAAS corrections I get less then 1 meter resolution ( less then 3 foot deviation ). This is on an old GPS receiver from the mid part of last decade.

Even if GloNASS was dead on accurate with no error at all, what would be the difference where personal navigation or even munition targeting would be concerned? As for the Jam ability of signals, The GloNASS is just as susceptible to countermeasures as GPS.

The GLONASS-K system went operational in Oct 2011, so earlier info will not be accurate. Here is one link:

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/icg/2011/icg-6/3.pdf

And another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS-K

The advantage of GLONASS is not only improved accuracy, but very much improved reception in mountainous and urban areas that have trouble with spurious signal generation (signal reflections.) Both Ford and Toyota will be using GLONASS as a result.

For Iran this has two big advantages (not counting improved accuracy): a) many potential targets of military missiles are in urban or mountainous terrain where GLONASS has much better signal reception, and b) in the event of war, the US military would either turn off or "spoof" our GPS signals, so it is better for Iran to rely on Russia's. It is almost impossible to jam military uses of GPS since the jammer must be physically positioned between the receiver and the satellites to be effective. That is why the military thought that Iran could not interfere with its Sentinel drones. FAIL! All they had to do was jam the datalink and then re=program new landing coordinateds into the drone and they had it.

While US GPS satellites are being constantly upgraded, those upgrades are not made available to the civiliuan public and are mostly anti-jamming and anti-spoofing in nature. This has more to do with the ability of the older generation GPS satellites to accurately determine their own positions as a limiting factor than anything else.

One of the things tha Air Force has learned well from JDAMs is that GPS satellite signals are almost impossible to block effectively. They've pretty much given up on that. Counter countermeasures are just too easy.

I am aware of the K sires. I also know that Both GloNASS and GPS are required to get full use of better accuracy in City canyon's and indoors. In all honesty though, GPS dose not perform that badly even in New York City most of the time. I don;t get 2 meter Res, but I almost always get within sight of my intended destination.

It is hard to block positioning signals because they are vary much just like background noise, but it is vary possible and it would be unlike the Air force that I once worked for to give up entirely on effective blocking of navigation.

In any event, I think this is why the Navy has been touting its anti missile capability. They want Iran among others to know that they can defend ships and other targets long enough to destroy missile systems close to the shores and slightly into the interior of Iran. You would also see heavy bombing to keep them from repositioning mobile launchers.

I have seen many say that Iran has large quantities of this or that that can overwhelm missile defense . That might be true, but these defenses can handle the intial waves while suppression is put into place.

Big reason why you see the US moving vary slow on Iran.

What do you bet we already have a virus for it. OK, now return home.

@tired

First of all the Straits or Hormuz entriy is in Iranian territiorial waters and the US Navy must give warning and notice of transits. Only three ships can transit with an flattop. It is usually an Aegis cruiser and two DD's or DE's or possibly a missile frigate. But only one is usually a heavily defensive ship, usually a DD. Whole battle groups are not allowed. They have to transit in segments several days apart. There was a good Dan Rather reports on this the other nioght if you want to see for yourself.

Pentagon military planners call it the Piper Cub Paradox. It has been used as the justification for cancelling several "advanced" weapons programs and is currently being used to try and stop Congress from forcing unwanted and unneded Abrams upgrades on the military. The scenario foes: take the money that goes into one advanced fighter and all the armament it can carry. then figure out the cost and use the same money to build as many Piper Super Cubs as you can, each carrying one AAM. A missile does not really care how expensive an aircraft shoots it. The result is so many Piper Super Cubs that the "advanced" fighter has absolutely zero chance of survival. This is what the Iranians are doing with mines and fast missile boats. Use google earth and look at any port of the fortified islands inb the Straits. There are hundreds of fiberglass speedboats with one missile or one torpedo. Until they make a firing pass they are indistinguishable from fishing boats. There is simply a limit to how many targets a ship can deal with and it's a lot smaller than you would think. And in the Straits there is no room to maneuver at all. Launching of aircraft is also forbidden while in Iranian/Omani territorial waters. Because of the Amer5ican shootdown of an Iranian airliner on a scheduled flight, the Iranians are not disposed to cut an American ship even the slightest break since the shootdown was done by an Amnerican ship in Iranian terrotirial waters.

The reality is that if the Iranians want to sink an American aircraft carrier in the Straits, there is very little we can do to prevent it. And I'm only talking about fast speedboats, not about the hundreds and hundreds of artillery and missile sites that are in peek-and-shoot caves and tunnels along the bluffs overlooking the Straits and on the islands through which the ships must pass. Look on google earth. It is not a secret.

Since the Iranians have mined the shallows along the channels through the Strait (as is their right) the US Navy has sent in most of the loose minesweepers and littoral ships we have, but is is still a pittifully small number given the situation. It is tough to project power with the other guy holding too many aces.

@QE-137,

I would think that anti-GPS satellite missions or GPS jamming missions would be a primary function of the Air Force's XB-37B program. But I was mostly referring to efforts to develop countermeasures that could be used by ground troops to jam or spoof JDAM-type ordnance. Originally the Air Force was going to use the space shuttle for such things, but it turned out to be way too expensive, way too long to cycle, and way to dangerous to ride in. Crewmen are expendable but military satellites and systems that might be aboard are not. That is why the faciolities were created at Vandenberg to launch space shuttles --- to carry "exotic" payloads. The whols shuttle cargo bay was designed around KH-series spy satellites.

But now that GLONASS is at full satellite coverage, there is no need for the older generation GPS at all. It's just that cell phone and car navigation companies want to hedge their bets. No use putting all your eggs in one basket if you don't have to. That was just something that was being done until the 24-satellite mark was hit. Now, I think there are around 32 GLONASS satellites up there or scheduled for launch, creating spares.

And the main reason is touting its anti-missile systems is the deplkoyment of a Chinese anti-carrier ballistic missile system. The Pentagon doubts that a Ccarrier task force could survive an attack by these missiles. It is much cheaper to "tout" defensive systems than actually get them to work. See viv the "touting" of the Patriot missiles against SCUDs in Iraq. The Patriots ended up zero for 120 or so against the SCUDs and they had to retool the whole program.

I agree Chris. For the cost of these supersonic weapons we seem to need, 10,000 smaller aircraft, with all the latest in missile technology would seem to me to make more sense.

Not completely out of Iraq, Not completely out of Afghanistan, Yea lets invade Syria and take on Iran! After all we can count on minimal support from our allies! Look how they help us. Right now in Afghanistan. 129,500 troops there and only 90,000 of them from the USA. The other 49 members of ISAF have less than a total of less 40,000 troops. Subtract the whopping 15,000 troops that Britain (9500), Germany (4900)and Canada (508) have there that makes it 25,000 troops from 46 countries.Many of them restricted to noncombat roles. With allies like that who needs enemies? Almost 5% of our GNP on the military now! Spending more than the rest of the world combined. Let's make it 6%, 7%, hell why not 10%? We can always borrow more from the Chinese like Bush did. After all we paid off the debt from World War Two before Reagan took office!

@Rustyboy,

Yep, that's why they call it "asymmetric" force. Pentagon Planners call it the Piper Cub Paradox, but it is even down to the Abrams tanks. They are pulling the tanks out of Afghanistan because the flat bottoms of the tanks make them easy prey for IED's buried in roads. They have lost an undisclosed number that way already and this is the tank that doesn't lose to other tanks. Congress is trying to force hundreds of new Abrams tanks on the Pentagon when they already have around 3,500 of them sitting idle in California and around 1000 more in Alabama --- all lined up in neat rows and probably will not be used in future wars because everyone knows their vulnerability. In Afghanistan the troops call them M1A1 Pillboxes because they can't move them around on the roads.

Pentagon planners get heartburn and insominia worrying about the vulnerability of things like aircraft carriers to things like the Chinese anti-carrier ballistic missiles (complete with maneuverable multi-warheads and decoys.) They worry about swarms of Chinese MiG-15's, 17's and 21's converted to drones. They worry about mines that are more advanced than our mine sweepers. They worry about small numbers of very expensive weapons systems whose weak point is their small numbers, or their susceptability to IED's made from sugar and fertilizer. They worry most about the reaction of the American public if someone like the Iranians were to sink an American aircraft carrier.

*********************THIS IS NEWS???????? (extreme sarcasm)********************

Look at the date at the bottom of the article (2011). One or more years of stale "Information".

In the meantime go read this:

http://david393071.newsvine.com/_news/2012/01/03/9928679-iran-2009-to-2012-strait-of-hormuz

Jonathan-1982062,

Are you that confused?

Facts to straighten you out:

Shia(Shiites) = Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran. Fundamentalist Islamic Interpretation of the Holy Koran Only. Holy Koran (Quran), Shia (aka Sharia) Laws and Haddith (Ancient Customs) as current Laws. Belief in the 109 Suras of the 114 Surasof the Holy Koran's Calls to All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers. Fundamentalist Islam as the Foundation of the current Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist Groups (Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic OsamaBin Laden, Fundamentalist Islamic Hamas, Fundamentalist Islamic Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK, Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban (Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.), Somalia Al Sheebah, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, lots of etc. (see US Department of State Terrorist Organization Lists). Use of Deadly Force First, no empty words (negotiations) "Shoot first, as the dead do not complain", use of starvation as a weapon (previous Afghanistan (Government of the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban), Somalia (UN Mission Somalia I and II and current Fundamentalist Islamic Al Sheebah), Pakistan (prevented any outside Humanitarian Assistance after Floods), etc.). Currently, Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Believers are the majority of the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide, that by Fundamentalist Islamic Laws MUST support the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists thru Mandatory Islamic Tithes (Trillions each year).

Sunnis = Moderate (aka "Liberal") Interpretation of the Holy Koran. Usually killed off by the Shia, since they believe in negotiations first and force last; believed to be Islamic Heretics by the Shia (Shia Death Penalty Fatawas against Sunnis), this is why the Sunnis are currently the minority of the current 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide. Usually Pro Modern, Pro "Western" (US and US Allies). Sunnis Rule of Law, Fiqh (Logic) causing them to be declared Islamic Heretics by the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia for "Modernizing" Islamic Law.

Chris-749391 - @vincevance, Exactly how would Obama be to blame for the literally hundreds of fast missle/torpedo boats that Iran has???

Do you really want to go there? (ask that question). Fact: In March 2009 President Obama announced his new ForeignPolicy with the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran (youtube.com). President Obama's New Policy allowed the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran to do anything without US Interventions. After President Obama announcing his new Foreign Policy with Iran the Ayatollahs of Iran (that really control Iran) responded (basically laughing at President Obama "Increased Relations (negotiations) with Iran")(youtube.com, Iran Fars News and Arabic Al Jazeera). The First thing the Ayatollahs did was to authorize the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran's Military to negotiate with the Chinese and Russian Federation for 21st Century Weapons Systems and Technology (Missiles, Nuclear, Chemical, Anti Aircraft, (Stealth) Submarines, Hypersonic and Supersonic Anti Ship (designed to sink US Aircraft Carriers) Missiles, Supercavitating Torpedoes, Anti Ballistic Missile Systems, etc. in exchange for the Oil Wealth of the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran; Second, thru the use of the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists (trained by the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran's Special Forces, Quds, in Asymmetric Warfare (Insurgency, next door at the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Autonomous Kurdistanis Region of Northern Iraq, repeat of History as 2002-2003 Ansar Al Islam that we (US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces after 2001 Afghanistan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arxKhJIjIiY) attached to the CIA's SAD/SOG chased the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists from Afghanistan to Northern Iraq; we (surviving US Military Asymmetric Warfare from Afghanistan) later augmented by the US Military 10th Special Forces Group and Pro US Kurdistanis "Pesh") defeated Ansar Al Islam (Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban and Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists escaped from Afghanistan plus more Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists and Fundamentalist Islamic Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK) during 2002-2003 Operation Hotel California, see "The tie-in between Afghanistan and Iraq", http://david393071.newsvine.com/_news/2012/03/12/10658053-afghanistan) as Iran's "Proxy Fighters" starting Civil Wars (getting the people to fight for their Fundamentalist Islamic Cause(s) for perceived injustices) to overthrow the established governments of longtime US Allies; Third, promises to the Chinese and Russian Federation for the Resources of the "Middle East", Asia (including Afghanistan), Africa, etc..; Fourth, a Technological Trade Agreement between the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran (Missile Technology) for North Korean Nuclear Weapons Technology, etc..

For going against President Obama's March 2009, General McChrystal receives a Letter of Reprimand for stating that the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran is directly supplying weapons, ammunition, funds to the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists (Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic Pakistani Taliban, etc.) as well as the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran's Special Forces, Quds, training the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists at the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Autonomous Kurdistanis Region of Northern Iraq (then the Main Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist Training Camps, until the US Ally Turkey attacked in 2011-2012 causing them to flee back to their Nations of Origin (Causing the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists to Overthrow the US Allies Established Governments aka "Arab Spring" and the current situation at Syria (as Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada Syria fled back to Syria from Main Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist Training Camps at Northern Iraq, same with the Fundamentalist Islamic Muslim Brotherhood (Egypt), Fundamentalist Islamic Al Sheebah (Somalia), Fundamentalist Islamic Pakistanis Taliban (pressure on US Ally Pakistanis Government to get US out of Pakistan), Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada Yemen, Fundamentalist Islamic Hamas (worldwide as exported Foreign Fighters), Fundamentalist Islamic Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (aka the "Rebels" to overthrow former US Ally Gaddaffi), Northwestern Afghanistan NATO Ally Spain Military gets attacked by Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists (Taliban, Al Quada, etc.) fleeing along the Southern Old Silk Road to Afghanistan and Pakistan, etc..)). President Obama's Political Appointees Holbrooke, Eikenberry, SOS Clinton, General McChrystal briefed and shown the evidence.

PS, don't call me I'll call you (NOT), most of us (aka US Military Asymmetric Warfare (Insurgency, Counter Insurgency, Counter Terrorist) "Middle East" (Islam) Qualified since (few surviving) Operation Cyclone) till now are going on President Obama's Forced Retirements of his Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military (over 90,000 thrown on Unemployment).

Whatever, don't plug it into a computer system or network or it will likely fly back and explode where it came from.

Chris: Due to likes of you, who go to wars without knowing ABC of a place, Iraqi wars ended as a disgrace.

It is worse in Afghanistan.

Ignorance of likes of you beyond repair! Who could put some sense into Bushes, Hillarys, Libermanns, Netanyahos?

A stage is slowly coming, where the US and likes of you will be only able to computer war games!

Irene, you are totally wrong. Iran has repatedly said it would destroy Israel, the United States and all the Zionist states meaning the rest of the free world. Their fanatic leader Ahmadinejad is obsessed with war and will get many of their county killed. It is a tinder box waiting to explode and I doubt next door neighbor Israel can be restrained from self defense much longer.

After the US election all bets are off. It could go to small nukes and who knows. The Mayan 2012 prediction might be pretty close within a few months if major positive changes are not seen........

actually, Ahmadinejad said that he wishes to either make it not exist, or vanish from time. Depending on translation.

um irene how old are you?

must not watch the news much eh?

or do you live in a bubble lol

you need to research irans president almond joy

he quotes several times in history on air live tv

isreal must bu wiped from the face of the planet

not to sure what else that would mean rofl

ya iran pres is a lil nutty

watch a documentry or 2 it will help you in the future

Ireane you spelled Israel wrong

Irene, are you dumb, deaf or blind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9zcElqetqk&bpctr=1344086035

Israel is the little satan, the US is the GREAT satan!

Iran is telling its citizens to prepare for end times

http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/iran-leader-we-must-prep-for-the-end-times/

Iran is trying to provoke Israel to strike first. Sorry one.... I've read the book and know how it ends! It wont be pretty for Iran.

Irene is living in the land of la la....but some people just prefer that place over reality.

EXACTLY HOW does having one of the most diabolical leaders of all time try to exterminate the European Jewish population equate to Israel or Jews "having a problem with the Germans"?? Was the purpose of the Holocaust to teach the Jewish people how "to get along with others"??

I'm sorry but I have to say that post #2.7 is one1000percent lame !!!

Iran wants to destroy the zionist not the jew but mainstream media propaganda tells us otherwise in order to keep us stupid. Here is a fact, in Iran there are jewish synagogues and christian churches too. For those who don't believe this, well research for yourselves.

irene-2033073 Comment collapsed by the community

Stupid comment - Iran NEVER said that! Posting lies does not help anybody but warmongers!

Wow really? Do you live in deliverance county USA? Cause you got it backwards. Iran would like nothing less then to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. How could you miss that if you even look at the news or read a newspaper?

Paranoia is no way to go through life. Every time Iran makes a step toward parity in the military and economic arena, everybody goes nuts. A large part of this problem resides with their own paranoia but do we have to pile on? Their nuclear adventure is a case in point. Uranium bombs though conceptually simple are expensive and difficult to make. They require lots of Uranium and huge plants in order to enrich to weapons grade. And what do you get for all that effort, a handful of gun style large inefficient weapons that would work poorly on missiles, better to fly or ship such a weapon. But enrich to breeder reactor grade, they could then produce Plutonium which traditionally is set off by implosion. That type of weapon can be made much smaller in that critical mass is achieved as the plutonium is compressed by the chemical explosives. Such a weapon is theoretically much smaller and could be carried by a small missile. They were even fired out of cannons during the '50's.

But in all the angst about the Iran Nuclear program, I hear precious little that presents a clear picture of Iran's intention. That they are enriching uranium, yes. To %20 maybe, for use in production of medical isotopes, perhaps. Breeder Reactor, they don't even have a commercial power plant on line as far as I know. Like Romney's taxes, Iran's penchant for secrecy is their own worst enemy.

Ralph 2.11

Iran has not attacked another country in more than a hundred years

Tell that to Iraq.

There were similar jokes before each Iraqi wars with Saddam bragging and Israel threatening!

These Iranians just like Saudis are best in bragging!

They are used to do them before women, unarmed people or minorities.

Just look into the Saddam's time Iraqi vs Iran long war before 1991.

Iranians started sending hardly 14 kids to battle fields and they were bragging about that too!

Just recall how Saddam was bragging about his capabilities!

How much time it took for NATO forces in 1991 Iraqi war and the losses?

Were there biological, chemical or WMDs in Iraq?

Agewithout wisdom,

Ralph 2.11 is correct.

From Wikipedia, "Iran-Iraq War":

The war began when Iraq invaded Iran, launching a simultaneous invasion by air and land into Iranian territory on 22 September 1980 following a long history of border disputes, and fears of Shia Islam insurgency among Iraq's long-suppressed Shia majority influenced by the Iranian Revolution. Iraq was also aiming to replace Iran as the dominant Persian Gulf state. Although Iraq hoped to take advantage of the revolutionary chaos in Iran (see Iranian Revolution, 1979) and attacked without formal warning, they made only limited progress into Iran and were quickly repelled by the Iranians who regained virtually all lost territory by June 1982. For the next six years, Iran was on the offensive."

Better check your FACTS Dissociate

Authorities in Iran this week ordered the closure of a church in the capital, Tehran, amid a government campaign to crack down on the few recognized churches offering Farsi-speaking services, according to a human rights group.

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/iranian-authorities-shut-church-in-tehran-76399/#BiG00pHh22fP5A7S.99

Irene-2033073 was right: Ahmadinejad never threatened to wipe Israel off the map. Even a member of the Israeli cabinet admitted that he never said that.

Google "How Obama Recycled a Lie about Iran" where you will find the following:

Earlier this month, Dan Meridor, Israel's minister of intelligence and atomic energy, conceded the point in an interview with Al Jazeera. He agreed that Iranian leaders "didn't say, 'We'll wipe [Israel] out,' you're right, but [said instead] 'it will not survive. It is a cancerous tumor, it should be removed.' They repeatedly said 'Israel is not legitimate, it should not exist.'"

Ahmadinejad essentially was predicting that Israel's rule over Jerusalem would eventually come to an end, much like the once mighty Soviet Union collapsed in the early 1990s. He and other Iranian leaders have repeated similar predictions since then, but without any suggestion that Iran would attack Israel. [For more, see "Wiped Off the Map - the Rumour of the Century" by Arash Norouzi.]

The widely believed wiped-off-the-map lie that is currently being used as a pretext for war on Iran is the equivalent of the widely believed WMD lie that was used as a pretext for war on Iraq. In both cases, the motivations for war have been oil, Israel and profits for the military-industrial complex. We were duped into the Iraq war with its unnecessary loss of hundreds of thousands of lives (including over 4,000 of our military). Are we going to allow ourselves to be duped again by some of the very same people and news outlets that duped us before? One may rest assured that none of those dupers' children will be going anywhere near a battlefield--the only children sacrificed will be those of the patriots who believed their lies.

The ONE statement that is correctly attributed to Iran is that they would wipe Israel off the "map of history" in reference to the 1967 borders. This was in an address to the UN and the full text is available online. Iran has never given any indication that they would, or even have the ability to, attack Israel. It is the US position, exactly like Iran's, that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders. Every president since 1967 has maintained the same position. (Though Romney seemed unaware of it.) Israel claims Jerusalem as the capital, but the US Embassy (and most others) is in Tel Aviv because it is US policy that Israeli claims on Jerusalem are not legitimate. (Romney seemed unaware of this as well.)

No missile with a 300km (180mi) range is any threat to Israel. Period. Not even close. And a tactical missile such as the Fateh with a nuclear warhead is pretty laughable since it would do about as much damage to the people launching it as the target.

The North Koreans and the Iranians have been working together. North Korea is giving Iran nuclear technology in return for solid-propellant missile technology. But North Korea is also giving their expertise in hardening military targets to the point that they are close to invulnerable to US air strikes. If the Iranians have ten more years to prepare, US or Israeli airstrikes against Iran would likely far less than effective. As an example, North Korea actually has far more hardened military targets than the US and allies have bombs in theater.

no country would live in peace if its total existence is threatened with annihilation , when a country is ruled by ayatollahs who rewrite the koran to serve what they believe is gds will for. 1000 yrs people of the book live in peace they in fact have the same father abraham . in 1948 Israel told the arabs who live their to stay and build a new state together ,their answer was to start a holy war,ignorance abides ignorance .

I would point out that the idea that Iran is trying to provoke Israel to strike first is preposterous at best and stupid at worst. If you pull out a map you will see that it is a long, long way from Israel to Iran and any attack would have to pass over Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or other countries who would instantly warn Iran and try to intercept the Israelis themselves. The distance is so great that IDF fighter-bombers would have to hit air-to-air refueling tankers twice to make the round trip (three complete fuel loads.) The bomb loads the fighters would be able to carry (in addition to tip tanks) would be minimal. If the Israelis were able to pull it off at all, there would likely be only minimal damage to nuclear facilities that are quire hardened and well-defended and the IDF would likely lose most if not all aircraft, according to Pentagon planners.

Just take a look at the nuclear site at Qom on Google Earth. It is located at the pit of a U-shaped mountain. That means that there is only one axis of attack. Now, pull back and look at all those AAA and missile emplacements along that axis of attack. It is not likely that any aircraft, including stealth aircraft, would make it. (Stealth aircraft lose their stealthiness entirely when they open their bomb bay doors --- that's how the Serbs shot one down on an airfield bombing run --- only one axis of attack, down the runway.)

Tomahawks are pretty much useless against hardened targets. Unlike Iraq, Iran is much more hardened and has discrete command and control that is mostly unidentified (thanks to the North Koreans.)

The "Israeli Plan", as the Pentagon calls a strike initiated by Israel and then having the Pentagon pull their spuds out of the fire, would consist of hitting Iran's weak spots --- oil refineries, pipelines, transshipment facilities, POL storage, bridges, generation plants, etc and leaving the nuclear and military sites alone. The Pentagon sees this as a huge mistake that would invite Iranian retaliation against US assets in the Middle East right along with the Irsaelis.

The classic mistake that people can make it to either overestimate your own capacity or to underestimate the capacity of your enemy. At this point, the Pentagon is convinced that the IDF has committed both military "sins" in a fog of paranoia and an assumed air of desparation.

There is little intelligence that actually says that Iran is trying to develop actual nuclear weapons. All intelligence estimates have the Iranians developing a "short capability" of weapons only. It is extremely easy to make a nuclear weapon. A reasonably intelligent high schooler could do it. The trick is getting access to fissile material. It appears that the Iranian program is intended to develop and test only key weapon components (such as explosive charges and controls) and stockpile fissile material. This could them be used to offset the threat of 120 or so Israeli nukes by being able to say that they could have a working bomb within six months. This would also leave Israel without viable targets since the fissile material and components could be widely dispersed.

Just saying ...... It is a lot more complicated than most people think.

If it's " a lot more complicated than most people think" how is primitive North Korea a member of the nuclear club ??

Sorry, but no way I'm buying that Ahmadingleberry is anything other than a psychopath that believes his destiny is to launch Armageddon in the name of Islamic domination of the planet !!

@xray

I meant the situation, not making a nuke.

Authorities in Iran this week ordered the closure of a church in the capital, Tehran, amid a government campaign to crack down on the few recognized churches offering Farsi-speaking services, according to a human rights group.

I think I understand the reason for that. Iran wants jews and christians to speak their own language and Iranian muslims will speak their own.

Jonathan-1982062 - Were there biological, chemical or WMDs in Iraq?

Truthseeker-2248181 - The widely believed wiped-off-the-map lie that is currently being used as a pretext for war on Iran is the equivalent of the widely believed WMD lie that was used as a pretext for war on Iraq.

Go research Sargat, Iraq - david-475776 survivor of 2002-2003 Operation Hotel California.

Truthseeker-2248181 - Ralph 2.11 is correct. From Wikipedia, "Iran-Iraq War": The war began when Iraq invaded Iran

One, Never use Wikipedia as a source of Facts (Wikipedia Disclaimer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer).

Two, Once again those that did not participate writing things that do not encompass all of the information. Before being rotated from the US Military Training Teams (US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces FID (Foreign Internal Defense) Mission) to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars to Afghanistan/Pakistan (Afghan Refugee Camps) for Operation Cyclone, the newly formed Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran was doing everything to provoke US Ally Iraq to War (Centuries old Shia versus Sunnis), the term "Border Disputes" is an understatement, so was the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran directly supporting Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Jihadists (Insurgency Warfare, Civil War) to Overthrow the US Ally Iraq's Government; Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran threatens to cut off US Ally Saudi Arabia (including sinking Oil Supertankers) and US Ally Iraq with a blockade of the Straitof Hormuz prior to Iran Iraq War as your so called "Border Disputes" (Repeat of History, UN Sanctions, USN deployed to protect shipping and keep Strait of Hormuz open prior to Iran Iraq War, except this time the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran learned from their mistakes, and the US and US Allies did not (refuse to listen to those previous US Military participants)).

As far as attacking the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran's Facilities located just under 250 feet of solid mountains; ever since the INF (Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces) Treaty, SALT, START, etc. the US and US Allies no longer have any weapons systems capable of attacking the reinforced concrete Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran's Facilities located just under 250 feet of solid mountains (that is why they purposely did that (250 feet underground)). It was believed at the time (Treaties) that if the Command and Control and other hardened Facilities (US NORAD, USSR Ural Mountain Complex) were attacked then no one (Governments, Military Command, etc.) would be left to call off a complete Thermonuclear War, so these capabilities, CNWDI designs, manufacturing processes, TELs (Transportation Erection Launchers), etc. were completely destroyed as monitored by US and USSR (having been part of this as previously Nuclear (Weapons) Physics (Chemical, Biological also) and Missiles is why I was involuntarily changed from the Nuclear Career Field (desk job) to Middle East Qualified Asymmetric Warfare (aka Special Warfare, extreme hardships; language Farsi) or resign my US Military Officer Commission (thrown on unemployment)). It is because of my previous Education and Experience with Nuclear (Weapons) Physics, Missiles (Delivery Systems), etc. as to why I know what the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran is up to (doing) as assisted by the Chinese and Russian Federation (Extraction of the Uranium from the Raw Uranium Ore (Rocks) as the most difficult part since 2010 and enriching the uranium to just below "Weapons Grade")).

wje37fcsm,

I would rethink (research) your post is all that I will say from experience (Teaching CNWDI, History, Nuclear (Weapons) Physics, Maintenance, Physiology, Delivery Systems, NAIRA/CAIRA, etc. at the "School House" and later "In the Field" (Deployed) with the US Nuclear Forces.). From looking around the internet many posts are "speculation" as to (CNWDI) design and function, as to why I cannot go shooting my mouth off and directly disputing your post (still not declassified from CNWDI).

If you ever get to, go visit the Unclassified (or if you have a Clearance the Classified) Nuclear (Weapons) Museum (even I learned some things that I did not know, especially the reasons why the designers did certain things).

david-475776,

Truthseeker-2248181 - Ralph 2.11 is correct. From Wikipedia, "Iran-Iraq War": The war began when Iraq invaded Iran

david-475776 - One, Never use Wikipedia as a source of Facts (Wikipedia Disclaimer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer).

You gave your version of events; here's another version:

WASHINGTON -- In summer 1980, Iraq's wily president Saddam Hussein saw opportunities in the chaos sweeping the Persian Gulf. Iran's Islamic revolution had terrified the Saudi princes and other Arab royalty who feared uprisings against their own corrupt life styles. Saddam's help was sought, too, by CIA-backed Iranian exiles who wanted a base to challenge the fundamentalist regime of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. And as always, the Western powers were worried about the Middle East oil fields.

So because of geography and his formidable Soviet-supplied army, Saddam was suddenly a popular fellow.

On Aug. 5, 1980, the Saudi rulers welcomed Saddam to Riyadh for his first state visit to Saudi Arabia, the first for any Iraqi president. The Saudis, of course, wanted something. At those fateful meetings, amid the luxury of the ornate palaces, the Saudis would encourage Saddam to invade Iran. Iraq's invasion of Iran in September 1980 would deteriorate into eight years of bloody trench warfare that did little more than kill and maim an estimated one million people. (from "Saddam's Green Light" - http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile5.html)

Regardless of the version, the fact remains that Iraq invaded Iran rather than the other way around.

david-475776,

Jonathan-1982062 - Were there biological, chemical or WMDs in Iraq?

Truthseeker-2248181 - The widely believed wiped-off-the-map lie that is currently being used as a pretext for war on Iran is the equivalent of the widely believed WMD lie that was used as a pretext for war on Iraq.

david-475776 - Go research Sargat, Iraq - david-475776 survivor of 2002-2003 Operation Hotel California.

My statement still stands. The reason given to justify the Iraq war was Saddam's alleged possession of WMD. The chemical facility in Sargat, Iraq that you refer to was not operated by Saddam, but by his enemy, al-Qaeda. Besides, it was in the no-fly zone in northern Iraq, an area over which Saddam had no control.

The following, from "Did Tenet Hide Key 9/11 Info?" - http://consortiumnews.com/2011/08/16/did-tenet-hide-key-911-info/, explains why neither the UN inspectors, nor US soldiers could find any Saddam WMD in Iraq:

I'm reminded of Harlow's reaction to Newsweek's publication on Feb. 24, 2003, of the intelligence information provided by Saddam Hussein's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel when he defected to Jordan in 1995. Kamel brought with him a treasure trove of documents and unique knowledge of Iraq's putative "weapons of mass destruction."

Most significantly, he told his U.S. debriefers there were no WMD in Iraq. He knew, since he was in charge of the chemical, biological, nuclear and missile programs for almost a decade, and he ordered what weapons existed destroyed before the U.N. inspectors could discover them after the war in 1991.

In his words: "I ordered the destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons — biological, chemical, missile, nuclear were destroyed."

Those pushing the Iraq War juggernaut in early 2003 almost had a conniption when Newsweek acquired a transcript of Kamel's debriefing and published this potentially explosive story barely three weeks before the invasion.

If Saddam had had WMD, why didn't he use them on the invading US troops? Apparently none of our troops died from chemical attacks or atomic explosions; just about all died from roadside bombs. And if WMD had been found, wouldn't Bush have wasted no time in informing the American people? Rather, Bush blamed the failure to find WMD on "faulty intelligence." (That faulty intelligence, BTW, was the phony intelligence deliberately cooked up by Cheney's Office of Special Plans in order to justify a war on Iraq.)

Very intelligent post: leaders in long pants can be trusted, and those in short pants, can't. Conservative right wing NUT much?

Do people not understand why the Iranian people hate the Israelis so badly???? Why even tossing out the ayatollahs would not change that???

When Iran's only democratically-elected government ever was deposed by a coup by the US and Britain, the Shah was put in place, mostly to keep British Petroleum (BP) facilities from the threat of nationalization. This threat had never been made, but Britain "projected" that it could be made someday.

In order to make sure the Shah stayed in power, the brutal and repressive SAVAK was put in place and the CIA was given the task of training them --- something well outside the scope of the CIA at the time. The CIA gave a multi-billion dollar contract (paid for by the Iranian taxpayer) to the Mossad to do the training. The Mossad called on one of the largest non-Muslim communities in the Middle East, the Christian and Jewish communities in Tehran as a source for over 60,000 SAVAK agents, especially those in higher-up positions. The SAVAK ran rampant from 1957 until 1979, torturing and killing many thousands of Iranians and running a string of "disappearance" prisons. When the Shah was deposed, about 6,000-8,000 SAVAK agents were executed, mostly administrative personnel and not actual agents. The CIA took the blame, supposedly to protect the Jewish and Christian communities in Tehran. Somewhere in the process the CIA determined that the Mossad has been running a "shadow" system for their benefit and had concealed the real SAVAK agent network from them. Israel still runs the remains of the SAVAK as a private intelligence network within Iran, presumably with a considerable number of highly placed Revolutionary Guards and goivernment officials as "silent moles." The Iranian people have not forgotten the SAVAK or the Mossad control of a group that killed or maimed literally tens of thousands of their citizens. Virtually every person in Iran has a relative who "disappeared" or one who was tortured.

Sometimes it is good to know why one group hates another. It may not change things, but it lets you realize that they are not crazy.

Most sane people realize that any debt we owed the Iranians for helping RETURN the Shah to power was repaid in full when they held our embassy hostage for OVER A YEAR from late 1979 to early 1981. The election of Mossadeigh in 1953 AFTER he seized power hardly amounts to a "democratically elected" government since there wasn't time to form an opposition party between when he seized power and his "election". That's not saying we were right to get involved, just that the whole "democratically elected government" claim is suspect

The Iranian "revolutionary" regime has been an agent of world wide chaos for 33 years. No amount of spin can change that or the FACT that we should have wiped Iran's terror proxy Hezbollah off the face of the earth after they murdered 241 U.S. Marine peacekeepers in 1983 !!!

Xray - You are wrong. It is Israeli propaganda that would have you believe Iran is responcible for every terror attack in the last 20 years. It is 99% bs. Iran supports freedom fighters in their own countries. They do not export terror, which is Israel's main claim to fame, terror and false flag attacks, such as 9/11.

Most of the comments on this thread ARE DENOUNCING Iran's military build up under Ahmadirtyjacket, as opposed to supporting Israel. Iran continuing to build their military and trying to gain nuclear capability is the problem, not Israel (who have plenty of actual problems, NONE of which you or Irene have pointed out).

Only the most delusional hater of Israel and the Jewish people would think that 95% of the American people believe Israel is worse than the Iranian regime. Even those who have issues with Israel know that a nuclear armed Iran is not a good thing !!

lol that's funny. people distorting facts and numbers to suit their own, and we're only on page one. lol

Yeah, I dunno where you are getting your info one1000percentAmerican, but I call "bullcrap." Maybe you were just raised to hate Jews or you're delusional, but either way you are one1000percentwrong.

84% of all statistics are made up! True fact!

@ .001% Did they poll Dearborn Mi. ???

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." ---Mark Twain

"Statistically speaking, the average American has one testicle and one ovary." ---Denver Bill

Here's an interesting tidbit:

"A 2012 report from The David Project, an Israel advocacy organization in the U.S., found that the strongest anti-Israel behaviour in America is found in universities. Quoting the experience of Jewish students who felt largely comfortable in American universities, the report denied that anti-Israeli feelings were based on antisemitism, as commonly believed. Instead the problem was said to lie in a "drip-drip negativity" about Israel that threatened to erode support over the long term, and might eventually spread from campuses to the population at large. Amongst ethnic groups, the Hispanic and Latino population is believed to be the most hostile towards Israel, according to the Israel Project (TIP), a U.S. nonprofit organization active in Israel advocacy. According to TIP, Israel is more popular among older Americans, Republicans, conservatives and Evangelicals and less popular among "liberal elites", African Americans and Democrats."

Personally, I am an old guy and had friends on the USS Liberty. I have listened to the tapes of Israeli pilots and boat commanders and nothing will erase from my mind the glee with which they shelled an unarmed American ship, and the openly knew that it was an unarmed American ship and actually commented on concentrating fire on the crew and work quarters amidships in order to inflict as many casualties as possible. They fled in absolute terror when told that the Sixth Fleet was sending defensive forces toprpotect the ship. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Your post is encouraging news Chris. As Americans become more educated to what Israel has done and is doing, support will further erode. Stop all aid to Israel.

Puh-leeze with the USS Liberty nonsense. Where are these tapes of Israeli pilots and boat commanders shelling our SPY ship with "glee"? ? In Al Capone's vault??

The bottom line, as it always has been, is that an UNARMED vessel had NO BUSINESS near a war zone with NO ARMED ESCORT. Too bad the idiots in charge of the Navy at the time didn't learn their lesson then, or the USS Pueblo wouldn't have been on display in North Korea since 1968 !!!

Bringing up a 45 year old friendly fire incident to "justify" hatred of Israel does not change the FACT that a nuclear armed Iran is in no SANE PERSON's best interest !!! Sorry, but that's also the way it is !!!

Personally, I am an old guy and had friends on the USS Liberty. I have listened to the tapes of Israeli pilots and boat commanders and nothing will erase from my mind the glee with which they shelled an unarmed American ship, and the openly knew that it was an unarmed American ship and actually commented on concentrating fire on the crew and work quarters amidships in order to inflict as many casualties as possible.

************************************************

I dont know anybody that was aboard the Liberty, BUT I do have a question...

How many of your "friends" speak Hebrew, because thats what they would have been speaking..IN FACT the tapes had to be translated TO ENGLISH....

Do I know if they attacked on purpose?? NO....

But for you to say your "friends" listened to the tapes and knew what the pilots were saying, I call BS

@Ralph,

If we were to stop all aid to Israel, we would lose our only controls over their actions. The problem right now is that under the Camp David Accords, we are required to give Egypt and Israel economic and military aid "in parity." The issue could well be that we cut off aid to Egypt because of right wing protests and then have to cut off the same aid to Israel or lose what little credibility we have left in the Middle East. Similarly, if we cut off aid to Israel, we would also have to cut off aid to Egypt and lose what influence we still have with that country's military and pro-western civilians.

My posts sound different because I am an old military intelligence analyst (mostly southwestern USSR and North Korea) from the 1960's into the 70's. An intelligence person's responsibility is to "be the enemy's representative on the commander's battle staff." This requires a perspective that is outside of normal military perspectives ---- the commander can get that from his own operations people. Once trained that way it is hard to stop looking at things that way. Every action has consequences.

xrayspex, since when does any vessel, armed or unarmed, need permission to be in international waters?

As for escorts, while Liberty had no immediate escorts, the entire 6th Fleet was her escort. When word of the attack reached 6th Fleet commanders, they launched their ready alert aircraft and began preparing for further launches. At that time, in the cold war, the ready alert aircraft were armed with nukes. Fortunately, the ready alert aircraft were eventually recalled to be rearmed with conventional weapons and, eventually, they were called to stand down. Had they been armed with conventional weapons in the first place, they would have reached their targets before Washington ordered the aircraft to stand down and had 6th Fleet not issued the recall to switch to conventional ordnance well, you can just imagine. I don't know if they would have launched nukes without Washington's permission but, who knows?

@xrayspex,

Sorry, but I was a Southwestern USSR air defense analyst working in the European Watch Center/7AD in London. The Liberty had just been completely refitted (it was an old Liberty ship) and was being briefed up for its first deployment in the Black Sea. The ship had all the neat new intercept gear at the time and could even decode SWAMP traffic more quickly and accurately than the Russians themselves along with recording radar, c&c communications, and aircraft communications. Because of its size, it held a huge amount more intercept gear than the RB-47's that were being used at that time.

I met crew members because the Radio Intercept Operators and supervisors came to London to get requirements briefings. This was where analysts told intercept operators what we were looking for. I made a number of friends on the Liberty during these meetings. I was also a guide for some serious pub-crawling that only Navy troops can do that well. The military is funny that way --- you can make good friends very quickly.

The ship also has a contingent of NSA personnel aboard. They were there as civilian engineers because so much of the equipment was new and would require extra training and tweaking once in the Black Sea. Intelligence "trawlers" are never accompanied by escorts. That is pretty much an international agreement, but also the intelligence ships don't want to have to deal with radint from "friendlies." A nearby ship can actually dampen intercepts because of its metalmass. The ship has a huge number of automatic broadband receivers that would seak out signals and tape them.

The Liberty was diverted from its destination in the Black Sea to off the coast of Egypt to intercept Egyptian military elint, mostly radar intercepts. It was attacked by several waves of both IDF fighters and PT boats. They tried very hard to sink the vessel even they knew that it was unarmed and knew that it was both American and knew its name and pennant number. They also knew where the work and crew quyarters were and this is where they directed the most fire amidships. If you were trying to disable a ship, you would normally strike at the aft sections where the engines and fuel are. These people actually gleefully machine-gunned the Navy crewmen in damage control parties trying to save the ship. But there's one thing that the US Navy is absolutely the best in the world at and its damage control. The ship didn't sink and the IDF aircraft and boats fled when notified from Israel that the Sixth Fleet was sending defensive forces.

The tapes from all the broadband recorders stiull exist today, I am sure. Dean Rusk who was secretary of State at the time did not believe the Israelis and publicly said so on numerous occasiona and all througout the coverup. One thing he did was to make sure that transcripts of the intercepts were published throughout the intelligence community. I read those while still with the European Watch Center.

Later, I was in Vietnam when the Pueblo was captured. The people at the Far Eastern Watch Center who were responsible for the mission wera all pretty much fired on the spot. I was picked up from Vietnam and became an "instant" North Korean intelligence analyst. While there, in about 1969 or so, I was at the NSA station at Fuchu AS and heard the copies of the takes. There was a lot from the tone of voice, etc that you can hear on a voice tape that never comes across in a transcript.

The assumption in the intelligence community was that the intention of Israel was to sink the USS Liberty and blame it on the Egyptians. FAIL! They damaged the ship so badly it had to be scrapped, but they did not have the ability to sink an unarmed US Navy auxilliary ship.

You really should google "Dean Rusk USS Liberty." Leopards don't change their spots. Or better yet --- go to the USS Liberty survivors site and see what they have to say. They haven't forgotten either.

@Dan,

At the time (1967 when I was young and handsome) the IDF did not use Hebrew. This was because it was a immigrant nation with huge numbers of Russians especially. Because many of the IDF pilots were commercial pilots as well, they used the ICAO standard and communicated in English, just as commercial pilots all over the world still do. I assume that the IDF patrol boats just used English because they needed to all be speaking the same language. It also made a huge difference that at the time the IDF was almost entirely dependent on American-made equipment, were trained on it in English, used English manuals to operate the equipment, etc. No use trying to switch languages during combat. Too easy to make mistakes.

At some point in time, I'm not exactly sure when, the IDF switched to Hebrew with only key words and phrases in English. I'm told that it is still easy to understand because "Bingo" is Hebrew for "I'm low on fuel."

Chris - You wrote-The problem right now is that under the Camp David Accords, we are required to give Egypt and Israel economic and military aid "in parity." The issue could well be that we cut off aid to Egypt because of right wing protests and then have to cut off the same aid to Israel or lose what little credibility we have left in the Middle East. Similarly, if we cut off aid to Israel, we would also have to cut off aid to Egypt and lose what influence we still have with that country's military and pro-western civilians.

I have no problem with cutting aid to both countries and losing control of them. This year, we will have given Israel over 13 billion dollars, thanks to the generous 9 billion dollar loan guarantee we just passed, which was written by Jews in our Congress. There is no mention of this colossal giveaway in the Jewish controlled media. Israel's supporters are a cancer in our own government. We are going broke and still giving Israel vast sums of money and arms. Without the arms handouts, they would have to start being apart of the world community or perish.

I am 100% sure they played a part in the assasination of JFK and 9/11.

Get a clue, already. Ahmadinejad is not in the least concerned about any potential outcomes for him or his people. He is focused solely on objectives and his objective is to fulfill his perceived destiny which has been stated multiple times here already. He may have to push the buttons himself, but he WILL unleash something lethal on westerners and/or Israel, if it's the last thing he does and with a smile on his face. Why is this so difficult for you to understand and accept? You don't have to believe us here in the forum, listen to Ahmadinejad's own words and vows. The only way to deal with a man like Ahmadinejad is to kill him before he kills you and tens of thousands of other innocent people.

Actually STexan and i think Ahmadinejad is an ego-maniac. However, if you remember US Embassy Iran takeover in 1979, you may recall a picture of an Iranian "student" observing the qualities of an M-21 sniper rifle, confiscated after the "students" entered the Embassy and took the diplomats et alia hostage - Guess who that was - Ahmadinejad.

Another thought is Ahmadinejad would never do anything like shooting missiles at Israel unless he had the go ahead nod from the Supreme Ayatollah, as he was sitting in his fortified bunker under one of those mountains in ther Bashir range. However, even egomaniacs may have that moment of "of course I can do that" and then he pushes the button knowing he will be in Paradise with 72 Virgins, er strike that as it will turn out to be 72 Virginians after proper translation - Thomas Payne, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington etc., who will "administer" to his eternal needs and it sure won't be what Ahmadinejad would be expecting from 72 virgins! LOL

Heres a funny thought...what if the 72 "virgins" were all male!!!LMAO!!We know mahmoomed was a pedophile, but prolly gay too.Have at it Rasheed, hahahaha

Jack - I seriously doubt the leadership of Iran is suicidal and thinks there will be 72 virgins waiting for them if they attack the US and are subsequently destroyed. Nothing in the history of Iran indicates they are crazy or suicidal.

Stop believing Zionist propaganda. The leaders of Israel and Zionists in the US are working hard to get the US into a war with Iran, just as thery did prior to the war with Iraq. They are assisted by the Zionist controlled media in the US and in some European countries, that parrots every lie.

Nothing said is more moronic than comments by Ralph. He is an Iranian misinformation agent who continously repeats lies - despite historical facts - about how peaceful the ayatollah regime is. My family and I are the eye wintnesses to the contrary.

They want us to spend billions to rebuild their tent cities with actual structures once they have surrendered to us.

Irene get's the prize for the Most Ignorant Statement of the week. Congratulations! How does it feel the go through life completely mis-guided and having went to the school of Islamic propaganda instead of the school of facts and reality?

Sure Irene, The US has been getting along with Mexico and the cartels just fine. What world do you live on. The US won't get its ass kicked. Other countries in the ME may suffer and the US will definitely suffer casualties but very far from getting its ass kicked.

Israel doesn't gas their own people or others countries people. They actually allow more freedom than any other ME country of note. If Israel starts a fight. They will finish that fight. Iran will gets whats coming for not complying and generally acting the way you are. A complete nuisance.

As for the US, while this country would prefer not to have another war. The US could not afford to not act. Since you have such a strong grasp of international politics, now you should move onto international economics and learn the consequence of not acting. Try acting like a proud American, if you are one, and not such a sniveling coward who's a mark for Iran.

Irene, if Israel feels anymore threatened they will strike and there won't be anything left of Iran's military capabilities to have a meaningful response.

Sadly, it's not the people of Iran that are the problem, it's the religious leadership and they really don't give too @!$%#s for their own people.

Any military action will only bring suffering to innocent civilians.

If there's a nuclear exchange ANYwhere, we're ALL going to die. Didn't any of you study nuclear physics in school?. I'm 65 and learned about nuclear fission/fusion in 7th grade. Hiroshima and Nagasaki(sp) were not an exchange, just one sided...think about it.

the "United States-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act
of 2012"? It was introduced by Senator Barbara Boxer on 3/6/12 with 71
Cosponsors. The bills were writte by Jewish Congressmen, working hard for Israel. They are ready, willing and able to give your tax dollars to Israel. The 9 billion will be but a drop inthe bucket, compared to the cost of the war with Iran, which Zionists are so feverishly pushing. The war in Iraq, planned and sold by Zionists, is predicted by experts to cost in excess of 3.5 trillion dollars.

The House passed their version [H.R.4133] on May 9, pledging unlimited loyalty
and riches to our "special friend" Israel, with only two congressman
dissenting- Ron Paul and Democrat John Dingell of Michigan.

The U.S. Senate passed their version on Friday June 29, 2012. Known in the
Senate as S.2165, the measure guaranteed an astonishing $9 billion dollars in
loans to Israel (plus all fees and interest!) in addition to giving
"military assistance- stockpiles of defense articles" valued at $200
million for 2013 and $200 million for 2014.

Boxer praised passage of the bill, stating "I am so pleased that the
Senate moved quickly to pass this important bill, which reaffirms the important
bond between the United States and Israel and helps ensure that Israel has the
necessary tools to defend itself in this time of dynamic change in the Middle
East."

"THE NEXT ROLL CALL VOTE WILL BE AT NOON ON
TUESDAY, JULY 10". The Senators passed this bill anonymously, in a
so-called "voice vote"!...

After tracking down the actual video of this travesty, which was no easy task-
(they seem to make these things hard to find on purpose)- it was like watching
something straight out of the twilight zone. Two old guys in suits mumbling
under their breath in a strange monotone fashion, with the entire U.S. Senate
taking literally less than six seconds total to squander 9 BILLION DOLLARS from
the American people. A true outrage. They did not even call out each Senators
name so that their constituents can hear whether they voted yea or nay.

The bill will soon be sent to Obama for his signature. By going to http://thomas.loc.gov and typing the term United
States-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act of 2012 in the search box,
one can read full details on both the house and senate versions of this bill.

The Senate version summary states that

"it is U.S. policy to: (1)
reaffirm the commitment to Israel's security as a Jewish state, (2) provide
Israel with the military capabilities to defend itself and help preserve its
qualitative military edge, (3) expand military and civilian cooperation, (4)
assist in a negotiated settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that
results in two states living side by side in peace and security, and (5)
encourage Israel's neighbors to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish
state.

Expresses the sense of Congress that the United States should take specified
actions to assist in Israel's defense.

Amends the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2005 to extend authority
to transfer certain obsolete or surplus Department of Defense (DOD) items to
Israel.

Amends the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to extend authority to make additions
to foreign-based defense stockpiles.

Amends the Emergency Wartime Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2003 to extend
specified loan guarantee authority to Israel.

The law required that a Senate report
be done on the bill. The law required that a
Senate report be done on the bill. On June 27, two days before the voice vote,
Skull and bones member John Kerry presented the obligatory "written report No. 112-179"...

The report states "That the interest rate for loans guaranteed under
this heading may include a reasonable fee to cover the costs and fees incurred
by the borrower in connection with this program", but then goes on to
state "That funds made available for assistance to Israel under chapter
4 of part II of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, as amended, may be utilized
by the Government of Israel to pay such fees to the United States
Government"!

So we can charge them interest and fees on the $9 billion dollars, but then let
them use our money to pay the fees!

More cut and paste garbage from the Iranian mullah's misinformation agent.

Farideh - Did you say garbage. It is all true. Try to prove otherwise. It is you that promulgates Zionist propaganda. I served in the US Navy from 1958 to 1962. I sympathize with the victims of the USS Liberty and those who were killed in the towers on 9/11 by the Zionists who set the charges in the WTCs, making them collapse in a controlled demolition.

Stop aid to Israel. our country is deep in debt and our Congressmen and women are sending tax dollars to Israel. It equates to more than 2000 dollars for each man, woman and child in Israel. Boy, our politians sure love the Jews. Why is it these bills are always written by Jewish congressmen? Is that not a conflict of interest?

This makes you at least 75 years old. You are full of garbage. Take your ayatolah backed propaganda rubbish somewhere else. I know Iran and its despicable regime. You cannot sell lies to me.

lol

Irene, so anti-Israel or anti-logic. All Europe acknowledges their guilt the US, Israel and several other countries. If they didn't acknowledge their would be no sanctions. So don't make this a US and Israel vs Iran alone. You're lying to prove you nonfactual points.

Israel is stronger than the other ME because they have to be. Theirs a long history of agression against Israel. Thats not to say Israel is without fault. But you really need to stop being such an Iranian appeaser.

Just because you are a coward doesnt mean the rest of the country agrees with youor follow suit. Does the US want a war with Iran? No, we can not afford it. But that doesnt mean that the US wont act as and maybe we don't want to seem as weak as you would appear.

And like so many so-called anti-Zionists, Irene has just revealed herself to be a plain old-fashioned Jew baiter.

irene, either your paid agitator or your muslim.

simply put. if iran shoots off any nukes, the US will launch sufficient nukes to take iran off the map. period.

most of the world is sick and tired of iran's BS. I'm an american, you want to start Armageddon, go ahead, I Dare you. Go Ahead, I'm looking forward to it.

You can spew all your garbage you want on these posts. You want to start a jihad, Be my guest, you start it, we'll finish it, and don't think we won't.

Iran Knows, they attack Israel, they will pay dearly for it.

Now, sit down, shut up, or fire the one or two nukes you have. Tired of the dog barking and making noise.

We fought ww1 and ww2, we Can handle iran. There is only One word iranians need to practice.

"Incoming"

Choice for you all. Either start your jihad and Armageddon or shut the hell up already. We're ready.

Oi ve... Irene and one1000, do you even realize that Israel was attacked the day after it was officially independent? Do you even realize that they have been threatened with annihilation for decades by their Arab neighbors (in addition to Iran)? Do you even understand the root tension between the Hebrew and Islamic faiths that would motivate these Arab countries to despise them?

Let me give you a scenario. Let's suppose that a black family moves into a white neighborhood. All of the white neighbors start writing hate-messages on their walls and leaving crap on the doorstep. Who is to blame, then? The black family? By your logic they would be, since they're the ones "having problems with all of the their neighbors." But reality says that these white neighbors are just hateful and aggressive. It's no different in Israel's case surrounded by hostile Islamic countries.

Is Israel perfect? No, obviously not. But they're the only functional democracy in the entire region where multiple religions are allowed to co-exist in peace. I'll take them over Iran any day.

Excellent analysis!!

Norye, good post! I have generally found that it is an exercise in futility to try to discuss logic and common sense or to have a rational discussion with racist anti Semites or Israel haters. In most cases, when the discussions turn against them, they just clam up and call you a Israel/Jew loving Zionist or something else and/or start throwing other subjects at you in an effort to misdirect the discussion away from their losing argument. It is sad and amusing at the same time.

@Noryc,

The crap about Israel being attacked immediately after declaring independence is just that --- crap. No modern historian believes or promulgates the "legacy" Israeli government explanation of those events. Since declassifying most classified documents around the time, there is not even pretense that the events happened the way you describe. The old timers in Israel call the current historians the "New Historians" as a hateful and venomous term. But here is a good palace to start reading with the references being especially important:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

you use wikipedia as your reference? No wonder you are so ignorant!

Yeah - I could live with that stance because it doesn't seek to destroy another country or change their regime unless they seek to harm us.

If we pull our troops. It doesn't mean that this would end the issue for the US. What happens in the ME effects the US significantly. Your way would mean to wait until a problem has gotten to the point where the US has to act. Then it could be too late, it could cost many more Americans then needed.

Having a presence in the ME does keep hostilities from occurring. Iran takes over Iraq or another country, well according to you since they didn't attack us we do nothing. Then gas is a $10 a gallon and Iran has all the power as they control a majority of the crude. Its a hypothetical but definitely is not out of the realm of possibility.

What a waste of time. You could have been watching cartoons.

Best post on this thread! Fanned and faved. A good reminder that there are consequences for aggression and bullying and hostile attempts to take over, change regimes, take what you want and destroy anybody that doesn't agree with your policies of aggression.

Imaginative but based upon ignorance. The Iranian retaliation attempt will be easily neutralized. You and they have no idea what capabilies we have to render their weapons useless and ineffective. You can expect the Israelis and the US to end this Iranian threat, once and for all, in October of this year. Bet on it.

Irene you must have had your head in the sand or somewhere else. Iran is bent on the destruction of Isreal, always have always will. They have repetedly expressed that opinion numerous times verbally and covertly. The sooner they are dealt with the better. Pack your fricken bags amd move to Iran.

a possible scenario that it seems a few here don't want to accept or recognize. A nuclear (or conventional) strike against a country that hasn't attacked you might seem like another "Pearl Harbor" type event to the Iranians

The outrage is because Ahmadinejad has openly said he wishes to wipe out zionism. He's crazy enough to use nuclear weapons. He openly opposes the US and has sent troops into iraq to kill Americans. These people are nuts.

Huh? The only time America used nuclear weapons was to end a declared war.

irene, I have to disagree with STexan from post #7.3. Your post above #11.2 is the most ignorant statement of the week.

Nice Lewis, and 100% agree. She is an ignoramus.

When was the last time Iran tried to wipe out a country? Gee, I dunno... how about the Iran-Iraq war? Don't pretend they're a bunch of peacelovers.

@Noryc,

Iraq attacked Iran. Period. YOU FAIL! And Ronnie Reagan provided the chemical weapons that Iraq used against Iranian civilians. And sold spares for American-made fighters and Hawk missiles to Iran at the same time as giving huge amounts of aid to Sadaam. You really turned ignoirance to lies on this one.

If you remember the First Gulf War, we had a lot of trouble finding and destroying a small number of SCUDs in Iraq. They are a b___h to find. Iraq launched SCUDs with near-total impunity at both US forces and Israel. Luckily the SCUDs were liquid-fueled missiles that were crap. Now picture Iran with about 50 times as many missiles, but instead of liquid-fueled SCUDs, you now have solid-fueled missiles. Maybe 20 or so times harder to find. And you think they would be taken out on a first strike???? Boy do I have some stock tips for you!

I hope your VA benefits are suspended for your sedition and treason.

I remember the thousands of palestinians killed and displaced and held in prison camps by Arab Muslims. They're still there.

I remember the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem that translated mine kampf into arabic ....that is still the Middle east's best-seller after the Koran.

I remember the USS Cole, I remember the Marines in Lebenon.

I remember the Achhile Lauro.

I remember Gazastan sending rockets and mortars the day after Israel evacuated 8000 Jews for peace in a place where 1.6 million arabs couldn't tolerate them.

Ixor Kleb

Nice try!

You SHILLS are so easy to spot now-a-days!

Tell the people/"GOYIM" REAL FACTS and you all come out of the woodwork to INSULT, but the "GOYIM" are WAKING UP to this, and MUCH MORE!

GENTILE DEFENSE LEAGUE!

@Ixor,

So are you contending that it was not the Israelis who brought terrorism to the Middle East? Maybe the King David Hotel bombing? And just maybe the Israeli government has admitted that most of the Palestinians refugees were driven from their homes and lands by armed Israelis in an attempt to destabilize Jordan, Syria and Lebanon? And declassified the pertinent documents??? I guess you couldn't make a case that the Israelis created the refugee camps and the Arab countries reacted by keeping the refugees in camps to protect their economies???? Ot that the Ottoman Empire chose to ally itself with Germany in WWI and that there is considerable interest in Germany still, mostly because of the various British punishments for it. It is hard to remember the USS Cole without also remembering the Iranian scheduled passenger aircraft that was "accidentally" shot down by an American ship???? Or to remember the Lebanon barraks bombing and not remember the US Navy battle buggies lobbing 2,0000lb shells into Labanon?????? Or that Irraeli reprisals against Palestinins have been on the order of 450 to 1 in casualties --- rocks against tanks and attack helicopters?????? Or that more Israeli spies have been convicted in this country than all the Soviet, Eastern Bloc, and Chinese spies combined?????? Or that they didn't need to test their nukes because they were built to stolen US plans with stolen US components?????

The USS Liberty

There is a timeline
at the website which was set up to honor the American victims of the Israel attack on the Liberty. Most of it follows.

June 8,
1967, Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty. They kill 34 American servicemen,
wounding 171 others. It will be the highest casualty rate ever inflicted on a
U.S. naval vessel, with 7 out of every 10 crew members killed or injured. It
will also be the only peacetime attack on a U.S. naval vessel that, to this
day, the Congress of the United States of America formally refuses to
investigate.

2 June 1967. Liberty
departs Rota at top speed of 18 knots en route to a point 13 miles off the Gaza
Strip, well within international waters.

5 June 1967, 7:45
(all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously
putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first. Captain McGonagle asks
Vice Admiral William Martin at Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer as
an armed escort and auxiliary communication center, noting that Liberty's
"self defense capability limited to four .50 caliber machine guns and
small arms."

6 June
1967. Admiral Martin replies "Liberty is clearly marked United States ship
in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable
subject for attack by any nation . . . Request for escort denied."

7 June
1967, shortly before midnight. Office of the U.S. Defense Attaché in Tel Aviv
sends coded message to U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) that Israel intends
to attack the Liberty if her course is not changed.

8 June 1967:

1000: Two unmarked,
rocket-armed, delta-winged jets circle Liberty three times. Liberty officers
can count rockets and see the pilots, but see no identifying marks on the
plane. The jets radio Israeli headquarters that the ship is flying an American
flag.

1030: Israeli "flying boxcar" with Israeli markings circles
Liberty at about 200 feet. Crew member Larry Weaver says, "I was actually
able to wave to the co-pilot, a fellow on the right-hand side of the plane. He
waved back, and actually smiled at me."

1055: Pinchas Pinchasy, naval liaison officer at Israeli air force
headquarters, reports to Naval Headquarters that the ship cruising slowly off
El Arish is "an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy,
named Liberty, whose marking was GTR-5."

1100 & 1130: Israeli reconnaissance aircraft again circle Liberty.

1205: Three Israeli motor torpedo boats leave Ashdod at high speed headed
toward Liberty. They are followed by Israeli air force fighters, loaded with
30mm cannon ammunition, rockets, and napalm.

1215 & 1245: Israeli reconnaissance aircraft again circle Liberty.

1341: Israeli torpedo boats spot Liberty and call for an immediate air strike.

1358: Two unmarked delta-winged Mirage jets attack Liberty. After taking out
gun mounts, they target ship's antennae and bridge with heat-seeking missiles.

1405: Three unmarked Dassault Mystère IIIC jets attack with napalm and
rockets. Ship tries to contact Sixth Fleet headquarters, but five of Liberty's
six shore circuits are jammed. Radio operator manages to send distress signal
from Captain McGonagle: "Under attack by unidentified jet aircraft,
require immediate assistance." Attack lasts approximately 22 minutes,
involving 30 to 35 sorties, killing nine men and wounding around 60. Israeli
pilot reports to base: "Great, wonderful, she's burning, she's
burning."

1409: Captain Joe Tully of the USS Saratoga acknowledges call for help,
dispatches four F-4 Phantom jets, and informs Liberty that help is on the way.
Within minutes U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert MacNamara orders rescue jets to
return: : "Tell Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back
immediately." Rear Admiral Geis relays message and tells them to re-launch
jets in 90 minutes.

1424: Three French-built 62-ton Israeli motor torpedo boats approach Liberty in
attack formation. Because the Israeli fighters had destroyed the American flag,
Captain McGonagle orders the signalman to hoist the "holiday ensign,"
the largest flag the ship has.

1435: Torpedo boats launch five German-made 19-inch torpedoes at Liberty.
One torpedo strikes starboard directly into NSA area, accounting for 25 of the
34 men who would be killed. Torpedo boats then circle, machine-gunning the ship
with armor-piercing projectiles for another 40 minutes.

1450: Commander of Sixth Fleet orders carriers USS America and USS Saratoga to
send aircraft to defend Liberty.

1500: NSA Sigint Command Center receives first notice of the attack from either
the America or Saratoga: "USS Liberty has been reportedly torpedoed by
unknown source in Med near 32N 33E. Request examine all communications for
possible reaction/reflections and report accordingly."

1505: Message sent to Liberty from Sixth Fleet: "Sending aircraft to cover
you. Surface units on the way." Liberty is off the air and does not
receive the message.

1511: First "official" notice that Liberty is under attack reaches
National Military Command Center in Washington.

1515: After the order to "prepare to abandon ship" comes over the
loudspeaker system, the lifeboats are lowered into the water. Israeli torpedo
boats move in closer and fire on them, as well as those still on deck, making
them all unusable. "I watched with horror as the floating life rafts were
riddled with holes," recalled Lieutenant Lloyd Painter, in charge of the
evacuation. Said Petty Officer Rowley, who also witnessed the event: "They
didn't want anyone to live." After destroying the life rafts, the Israeli
boats departed. Next, two Israeli SA-321 Super Frelon Hornet assault
helicopters carrying soldiers in battle dress circle ship several times, then
depart.

1600: Liberty transmits: "Flash, flash, flash. I pass in the blind. We
are under attack by aircraft and high-speed surface craft." Deputy
Director Louis Tordella is informed by Deputy Director of Joint Reconnaissance
Center, Captain Vineyard, that "consideration was then being given by some
unnamed Washington authorities to sink the Liberty in order that newspaper men
would be unable to photograph her and thus inflame public opinion against the
Israelis." Tordella makes an "impolite" comment about the idea,
writes a memo of the conversation for the record, and stores it away.

1639: Secretary of Defense McNamara again orders rescue planes recalled;
order is confirmed by President Johnson because "we are not going to
embarrass an ally." Naval Air Attaché at U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv,
Commander Ernest Castle, is summoned to Israeli Defense Forces headquarters.

1729: Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, commander of the Sixth Fleet in the
Mediterranean, protests decision to recall rescue planes to Secretary of
Defense McNamara. At that point President Johnson comes on the phone and says
he didn't care if the ship sunk, he would not embarrass his allies. Admiral Geis
tells Lt. Commander David Lewis, head of the Liberty's NSA group, of the
remark, but asks him not to repeat it until after he dies. It is a promise
Lewis will honor.

9 June 1967:

After midnight: Soviet guided missile
destroyer sends flashing-light message in English: "Do you need
help?" Liberty responds: "No thank you." Soviets answer: "I
will stand by in case you need me."

0600: USS Navy destroyers Davis and Massey
arrive.

Mid-morning: Dead and wounded are evacuated by helicopter.

1450: Israeli Lt. Col. Michael Bloch telephones Commander Castle that Liberty, because
it was not flying a flag, had been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El
Queseir. State Department assures Congress that attack was accidental.

10 June 1967: Vice Admiral McCain orders Rear Admiral Isaac Kidd to convene
Navy Court of Inquiry.

11 June 1967: Admiral Kidd boards Liberty
with small staff to head Navy Court of Inquiry.

14 June 1967: Liberty arrives in Malta. Total
news blackout imposed. Rear Admiral Kidd warns crew: "You are never,
repeat never, to discuss this with anyone, not even your wives. If you do, you
will be court-martialed and will end your lives in prison or worse."
Secretary of Defense McNamara informs media that, "Department of Defense
will have no further comment."

15 June 1967: Secretary of State Dean Rusk
tells NATO ambassadors in Luxembourg that Israel's attack was deliberate. His
remark is reported in European, but not U.S. papers.

18 June 1967: Israeli Court of Inquiry
exonerates Israeli government and all those involved, saying that its torpedo
boats erroneously reported the Liberty's speed at 30 knots instead of 5, and
that the Liberty flew no flag and had no identifying markings. Later, Israel
will honor Motor Torpedo Boat 203, the one that fired the deadly torpedo at the
Liberty, by putting its wheel and bell on display in its naval museum, among
those maritime items of which it is most proud.

July 1967: Shortly after the burial of six
Liberty crewmen in Arlington National Cemetery, a monument is erected
describing the six as having "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean."
Liberty survivors complain that the marking is evasive and improper.

September 1967: State Department legal
adviser Carl Salans finds many discrepancies with the Israeli report. His
report is classified Top Secret.

11 June 1968: Captain McGonagle is awarded
the Congressional Medal of Honor. The Medal, usually presented by the President
of the United States at the White House, is presented by the Secretary of the
Navy during a hastily arranged ceremony at the Washington D.C. Navy Yard.
Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, the Chief of Naval Operations, calls the way the
Medal is presented a back-handed slap. "Everyone else received their medal
at the White House," Moorer will later observe. "President Johnson
must have been concerned about the reaction of the Israeli lobby."

1980: National Security Agency Director
Marshall Carter tells investigative author James Bamford that, regarding the
attack on the Liberty, "There was no other answer than that it was
deliberate."

1981: National Security Agency review,
"Attack on a Sigint Collector, the USS Liberty Incident," rejects the
Israeli Court of Inquiry's "mistake" theory and accuses Israeli
fighter pilots and torpedo boat crewmen and commanders of perjury.

1982: Israeli senior lead pilot approaches
former Congressman Pete McCloskey and admits that he recognized the Liberty as
American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the
American flag and continue his attack. He said he refused to do so and returned
to base, where he was arrested.

6 October 1982: A new headstone for the six
Liberty crew members at Arlington National Cemetery is unveiled. This one
reads: "Killed USS Liberty June 8, 1967."

1986: Lt. Commander Walter H. Jacobsen writes
in Naval Law Review: "To speculate on the motives of an attack group that
uses unmarked planes and deprives helpless survivors of life rafts raises
disturbing possibilities, including the one that the Liberty crew was not meant
to survive the attack..."

6 November 1991: Columnists Evans and Novak
publish interview with Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967, in
which Porter says that during or immediately after the attack on the Liberty
the CIA station chief showed him transcripts of intercepted Israeli messages.
One has Israel ordering the attack on the Liberty, another has an Israeli pilot
replying it's an American ship. When the order to attack is repeated, the pilot
insists he can see the American flag. The pilot is told again: "Attack
it."

8 June 1997: Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, appointed
Chief of Naval Operations shortly after the attack on the Liberty, tells a
reunion of survivors: "I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to
sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Israel knew perfectly
well that the ship was American."

November 1998: Captain McGonagle breaks his
long silence: "After many years I finally believe that the attack was
deliberate. I don't think there has been an adequate investigation of the
incident . . . The flag was flying prior to the attack..." McGonagle will
die four months later, on March 3, 1999.

Chris,

You're froathing.

Ralph, eating all that cut 'n paste is bad for you and will give you an upset tummy..

\

Yes. A Certain Israeli group bombed the David Hotel. The Brits moved in and set-up shop there. Tolul Sleng was a High School. I'm glad the Vietnamese took it out. But they (Brits) were warned. I recall that other Jewish Groups assisted the British. I recall that certain Arabs assisted the British. I recall that certain Arabs attacked the Brits. Mostly Arabs attacking the Brits when they were keeping up their evan longer tradition of attacking Jews. There was plenty to go around for everybody. But I believe the Jews havegreatest cause for Israel including Judea and Samaria. The Arabs got a super deal overall after your poor Ottoman's Lost WW1.

I didn't mention "pertinent declassified documents". The only documents that matters is the documents signed by the Four Allied Nations signed at the San Remo. Lets toss in The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine & The UN Charter: chapter 12, article 80. They havealways been in the Public Domain. still binding but conveniently overlooked.

Arabs Attacked Israel (lots of 'em) and Israel coulddrive them out including the ones that didn't leave earlier at the Arab's bidding: to get out and later move back after the Jew was driven to the sea. They got a better deal than the Germans in the Sudetenland. I don't recall that it was Israel that is holding Palestinian Arabs in Jordan: a country with a Palestinian Arab Majority. Its High time Jordan to end it's apartheid hypocrisy and find new homes in the Arab world for the brethren. They certainly have enough real estate. Thanks for reminding me.

I also understand but don't condone straw-man arguments that leave an ex-analyst ranting and reduced to making up statistics. There are lies, big lies and statistics ehh? Using more question marks than Elaine Bennes has exclamation marks, making an "emotional appeal" with rhetorical questions resides more in the high seas of Fallacy then the Land of Reason.

I sympathize the grunts on the Liberty and their displeasure and sense of helplessness with beingthe patsies of the secretve un-spoken-of elitist annalist buddies of yours aboard aboard the Liberty. What were your buddies doing? Innocent off-shore leave or military personnel on duty in the middle of a combat zone? I too, know a Liberty crewman. An honest grunt sailor. Framing this one isolated freindly-fire incident against a museum full of friendly fire accidents is pure mis-direction merely to foist opinion by someone with the skills to do so. I recall you mentioning that you were a pro. We should not expect anything less. But, we're not fooled. But please don't confuse my point with an ad homenem attack. Its not.

I remember the Cole preferenctially and I stand with Americans. I would never side, or offer apologetic arguments that side with Islamic groups tryingto undermine our ally Israel.

There was a time when the British killed Americans "with glee" with greater frequency than the single "Liberty incident" Do you Hate Brits? I hope not.

I see no reason why I should or would feel bad about Israeli superior firepower over its attackers.

You mention Rocks against Tanks? Boohoo for them that they saved their suicide bombers, kadushas and mortars for exlusive civilian targets. I'm cryin a river for you and your Muslim palestinian and LebeneseHezbollah pals you are giving comfort to and apology for. So many tears ...I'm still workin' on my first "hankie" and I'm not halfway through.

I feel you know we have and had more to fear (and more dead spies) from spies that are domestic turn-coats for Russia and China (stuff that we just don't hand over as part of a purchase order) and foreign enemies that have caused more damage than say, Jonathan Pollard. Now we have the CIA whining that someone tasted their porridge...again... in their Tel Aviv flat just last week. However, I'm not sure its enough for me to moisten the other half of that "hankie"

PS I'm glad our Security agencies keep their eye on our enemies and friends.

1/1000% Ameriscam, are you for real? You and those other Nazi's need to move to Brazil or Iran. If you believe that Iran is not a threat then there is nothing that I can tell you that would do any good.

The Obama administration has added Israel to a list of 36 ‘specially designated’ countries

No surprise There. He/they can't recognize the obvious: Jerusalem undivied is the true capitol of Israel adn of the Jewish People for over three thousand years. Obama is a closet Muslim. His real daddy is Hawaiian/Chicagoan commie Frank Marshall Davis. His phoney Christian minster is/was America hating Rev. Wright.

http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

you're just an idiot "one1000percentAmerican"! spew your crap somewhere else!

the first 2 words of your comment are a lie " i think". so why should we listen to anything else you have to say.