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Masataka Morita / AP
A boat from Hong Kong, center, is surrounded by Japanese Coast Guard vessels after Chinese activists landed on Uotsuri Island, one of the Senkaku or Diaoyu Islands, on Aug. 15.
Vast oil reserves, trillion-dollar trade routes, fervent nationalist sentiments, competing territorial claims and bitter histories – the waters off the east coast of China are a sea of money and a sea of trouble.
Tensions have been rising for several years and recently hit new heights with activists landing on disputed islands, angry diplomatic exchanges and even a threat to deploy troops, prompting fears of an armed conflict that could potentially involve the United States, China, Japan and other nations.
The South China Sea has a myriad of competing claims of ownership: China staked out most of it in 1947 but its neighbors have never accepted it. The Spratly Islands alone are claimed by a total of five countries: China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Philippines and Vietnam.
All are eyeing oil and gas reserves thought to be so rich that the area has become dubbed "The Second Persian Gulf." Also, an estimated $5 trillion worth of trade is shipped through its waters.
In a speech last month in Cambodia, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton told members of the Asean group of nations – which includes the Philippines, Vietnam and Malaysia – that "maritime security" was one of a number of issues in the region of "central importance" to the U.S., and spoke of "transnational threats" as one area of U.S. government focus.
But perhaps the most dangerous potential flashpoint is farther north in the East China Sea. China and Japan both claim ownership of the uninhabited Senkaku Islands – known as Diaoyu in Chinese – with strong nationalist feelings on both sides.
Japanese nationalists land on island claimed by China
Just last week, the U.S. confirmed last week that the islands were covered by Article 5 of its security treaty with Japan, which spells out that an armed attack against either state would prompt each to "act to meet the common danger."
'Intimidate its neighbors'
Bonnie Glaser, a senior fellow at the Center for International & Strategic Studies and a consultant to the U.S. government on East Asia, said if China decides to seize the Senkakus – currently administered by Japan – it would likely provoke a military confrontation.
An article in Foreign Policy magazine on Monday even speculated on who would win the "Sino-Japanese Naval War of 2012," concluding it would end in a stalemate that would see Tokyo emerge with a political victory and potentially reverse China's progress toward world-power status "in an afternoon."
But Glaser told NBCNews.com that she doubted war would break out, partly because China is aware that if they did seize the islands, "the U.S. would be there" for its ally Japan.
"I think there could be the possibility of some miscalculation – maybe there could be some exchange of fire, but an all-out war? No. I don't think that's on the cards," she said.
Glaser said the situation was seen as a "test case of how China will act as it emerges as a great power."
"The U.S. has an interest in trying to ensure that China does not intimidate its neighbors, that it does not use military force or other means to compel its neighbors to accept outcomes that are against their interest," she said.
"Clearly if nations like the Philippines lose confidence in the U.S. ability to serve as the principal regional guarantor, they may embark on a potentially destabilizing arms build-up or accede to the demands of China. Neither would be in the interests of the U.S.," she said.
"We do not want to set up a situation where the Chinese believe the Asia-Pacific is their backyard," she added.
'Unavoidable moment of truth'
Senator James Webb, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations East Asian and Pacific Affairs Subcommittee, wrote in The Wall Street Journal on Monday that China had recently created a new national prefecture covering disputed islands in the South China Sea, and had announced it would deploy troops to guard them.
He said that China had "for practical purposes … unilaterally decided to annex an area that extends eastward from the East Asian mainland as far as the Philippines, and nearly as far south as the Strait of Malacca."
Kyodo via AP, file
An aerial view of Uotsuri Island, one of the islands known as Senkaku in Japanese and Diaoyu in Chinese, in the East China Sea.
"The U.S., China and all of East Asia have now reached an unavoidable moment of truth. Sovereignty disputes in which parties seek peaceful resolution are one thing; flagrant, belligerent acts are quite another," he added in the article.
For China's part, memories of Japan's violent invasion in the 1930s inflame nationalist sentiments.
Shi Yinhong, a leading scholar of international relations at Renmin University of China and a foreign policy adviser to China's Cabinet, advocated the case for "new thinking" and more rational relations with Japan in 2005, but found himself under attack from Chinese nationalists for being "too soft" on the former enemy.
"Nationalism is the number one driving force complicating the problem," he lamented, saying a "mutual hatred" existed between Chinese and Japanese nationalists.
China protests US State Department remarks on South China Sea
However, he told NBCNews.com that the nationalists in China were "not strong enough to push the government to take military action without 100 percent necessity."
"I don't think the Chinese government will take any action to occupy the Diaoyu islands," Shi said. "The governments in Beijing and Tokyo have been extraordinarily careful to prevent any direct conflict between the two armed forces and this determination is as strong as before."
Crisis for Japan?
In the South China Sea, China has set up a new military garrison and a regular "armed patrol" system to enforce its territorial claims, prompting critical reaction from the United States and some Southeast Asian countries.
But despite this, Shi said that the dispute with Japan over the Diaoyus in the East China Sea was the "potentially more dangerous" one.
Last week activists from Hong Kong, the former British colony now part of China, landed on the islands and a group of Japanese politicians then swam out to raise the Japanese flag. That sparked protests in the southern Chinese city of Shenzen as well as in several other cities.
Kyodo via Reuters
Members of a Japanese nationalist group raise Japanese flags as they land on Uotsuri island, part of the disputed islands in the East China Sea, on Aug. 19.
One of the Japanese protesters, Eiji Kosaka, a local politician from Tokyo's Arakawa District, said it was "only natural" for him to protest, even though he and his fellow demonstrators were denied permission to land on the island by the Japanese authorities.
"Senkaku Islands of Ishigaki City, Okinawa, is on the verge of a crisis. Along with 10 other comrades, we felt the need to declare that this is Japanese territory," Kosaka said.
Another protester, Satoru Mizushima, said that they had carried out the protest "to shed light on the fact that the Japanese government has abandoned its duty to defend people's lives and property."
PhotoBlog: Japan arrests activists on disputed island
Japan is also involved in disputes with Russia over the Southern Kuril islands and with South Korea over the Dokdo Islands, which have been under South Korean administrative control since 1952.
During the London Olympics, a member of South Korea's men's soccer team held up a sign handed to him by a fan proclaiming "Dokdo is our territory."
PhotoBlog: South Korean coastguard clashes with armada of Chinese fishing boats
Earlier this month, South Korean President Lee Myungbak made a surprise visit to the island -- a first by a Korean president -- prompting Tokyo to take a more active role in staking Japan's claim. For the first time in over 50 years, Japan has decided to take its case to the International Court of Justice in Hague.
'What is ours is ours'
Japan is not the only U.S. ally in the region feeling the pressure as China becomes more powerful.
Henry Bensurto Jr., head of the Commission on Maritime and Ocean Affairs under the Philippines' Department of Foreign Affairs, told NBCNews.com that the Philippines had tried to resolve the dispute with China over the South China Sea "in a quiet way" for a long time.
"But as we do that nice diplomacy, we are slowly losing our own territory," he said. "It's not good to have a picture of a strong country overpowering the small country. That is not an acceptable scenario."
"I think this issue is going to be there for a long time, I don't think there's a thought that it's going to be solved overnight. We're working for the long haul," he added.
A report in July by the International Crisis Group said, "At least five significant skirmishes were reported within the first five months of 2011, although the Philippines' lack of modern surveillance equipment made it difficult to substantiate accusations."
Vietnamese navy personnel patrol the Truong Sa or Spratly Islands in this April 13, 2010 file photo.
"In response, the Aquino government began to ratchet up diplomatic efforts, accelerate military procurement and refer to the South China Sea as the 'West Philippine Sea' in all official communications," the report said. "The president declared in July 2011 that 'what is ours is ours' in reference to Reed Bank [one of the disputed areas]."
The Socialist Republic of Vietnam might be expected to have better relations with China, but disputes over territory have raised similar tensions.
In 1988 the two countries fought over disputed islands, resulting in China occupying the Paracel Islands. According to the International Crisis Group report, this "led many Vietnamese to believe that China would not hesitate to use force again to settle sovereignty disputes."
"Nationalist sentiments in Vietnam run particularly high in its disputes with China and put pressure on the government to stand up to Beijing," the report said. "The bitter nature of the disputes has led observers to surmise that Vietnam would not back down from a military confrontation with China, despite China's overwhelming military capabilities, if only to raise the cost for Beijing."
Nguyen Lan Thang / Reuters, file
Protesters hold banners while chanting slogans on a street in Hanoi on July 22, during a protest against China's moves to strengthen its claim on disputed islands in the South China Sea.
To many, the situation appears deadlocked, with China arguing there should be one-to-one talks with Vietnam and other neighbor states, while they push for negotiations involving all parties.
"It's kind of a pessimistic situation but what can we hope for…?" Nhuyen Thi Lan Anh, deputy director of the Center for South China Sea Studies at the Diplomatic Academy of Vietnam, told NBCNews.com.
"At least we need rules of the game. If no one knows the rules of the game, we can get out of control, and in the end of course peace and stability will be hampered."
NBC News' Eric Baculinao in Beijing, Arata Yamamoto in Tokyo, Ploy Bunluesilp and Ian Johnston contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
Kowaii desu ne? This is a scary scenario for Asia.
We need to work this out diplomatically, our interventionalist foreign policy is only making things worse.
China flexes its muscles as it becomes stronger is only expected if anyone reads history. Each country that becomes stronger flexes its muscles by expanding, consuming more and wanting to regulate other countries. America is the worse, at this time in history. We actually invade and conquer foreign countries if we don't like their government or want their natural resources.
Pathetic. Name the Nations that we got their natural resources.
And even if we (US) did, who the f**k benefited, that's right your current US Standard of Living, instead of you living like a Fourth World Somalis.
One of the most stupid decisions in US history was to give China the most privileged nation trade status. The flood of Chinese goods into US simply helps to build China into a military superpower and destroys US jobs. US politicians betrayed the American people by siding with international capital holders.
With BILLIONS of those little bastards runnin around we would be hard pressed to win a ground war. Naval skirmishes go to our side... But with what is at stake, the Nukes would be in play. It is time for Romney's kids to be proactive and join the Military to display leadership and wave the flag proudly.
We should just take it.
"For China's part, memories of Japan's violent invasion in the 1930s inflame nationalist sentiments."
Here's a news flash for all those Asians that have no brains. The people who started that are all DEAD. Get over it. Stop living in the past. There IS a future. Just don't BLOW IT UP.
Does Iraq sound familiar?
We don't have their natural resources, just one contract to refurbish an existing well, and we're gone already. Very poor example.
1st paragraph above. "east coast of china". Must have been dozing during elememtary geography class.
Since most of you are NOT paying attention.
First, It has been the long time Strategic Goal of the Chinese and USSR (now Russian Federation) to get the US and US Allies out of their Backyards (Resources) of the Middle East, Africa, Asia, etc..
Second, to accomplish the First, the Chinese and Russian Federation are using the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran as their "Proxy Fighter". The Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran is using the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists Worldwide as their "Proxy Fighters" by having their Iranian Special Forces train, arm, equip, fund the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists at the Fundamentalist Islamic Autonoumous Kurdistanis Region of Northern Iraq (border of Syria, Northwestern Iran, Southern Turkey).
Third, ever since President Obama's March 2009 Iran Policy allowed the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran to do anything without US Interventions, Iran did.
Fourth, with the full support of the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran, the US and US Allies lost the Iraqis Oil, the Mineral Wealth of Afghanistan, loss of logistics bases at Pakistan, Suez Canal, etc.. With the Allies of the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran, the Chinese and Russian Federation gaining what the US and US Allies lost.
Fifth, to protect their gains from the US and US Allies losses worldwide, the Chinese accelerated their building of a "Deep Water" Navy, starting with their first Aircraft Carrier the Shi Lang, as assisted by the Russian Federation with 21st Century Technology (including upgraded aircraft). The Chinese are currently building as fast as they make products for Made In China Walmart, 21st Century Surface Warfare Ships and Submarines (believed to be Russian Federation Stealth), Chinese copies of Russian Supercavitating Torpedoes, Long range Hypersonic Anti Ship (specifically designed to sink USN (CVN) Aircraft Carriers), self rising remote controlled rocket assisted (underwater) mines, etc.. Ironically, it is due to the US Labor Unions written opposition to Automation that the US Businesses moved to China, using this US Technology is how the Chinese can manufacturer quicker with higher quality (computer controlled robotics with continuous laser measurements) versus US labor intensive (demanded by US Labor Unions) hand made or assembled. It is also because the Chinese and Russian Federation still take people (Contractors, Manufacturers) out and execute them for Contract Delays, Contract Cost Overruns, Contract Disputes, etc. that they get every Chinese Yuan or Russian Rubles worth, as the US must reward US Contractors to keep the Contractors from delaying the US Contracts for years in US Courts, most of US Congress likes US Contractors Delays as this means Jobs in their States for longer amounts of time.
Sixth, the Chinese selling a lot of their 21st Century Weapons Systems to their Ally, the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran, and providing Chinese Military Technicians for the maintenace, support, etc. for these Advanced 21st Century Weapons Systems; same as what the Russian Federation is doing. So if any of you are even thinking about attacking the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran you will pull their Allies the Chinese, and Russian Federation into a War (killing their Military). Also there is a specific reason why the Iranian Nuclear Facilities, etc. are below 250 feet, as after the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, SALT, START, etc. all the weapons systems capable of attacking the C4I or Political Control underground (below 250 feet) were destroyed as monitored by the US and USSR, as it was believed that if the C4I or a Nation's Political Control were destroyed there would be no one left with Nuclear Control Orders or National Command Authority to stop a Thermonuclear War (WWIII, Earth Ending Event).
If Iraq doesn't sound familiar, how about entire middle east? The Arab oil was vastly exploited by Anglo-American-Dutch companies until 1970s when Zaki Yamani brought the oil under Arab control. Zaki Yamani was the oil minister for Saudi Arabia under King Faisal. But the Arab nations overestimated their oil power and underestimated the power of having a real military and put an oil embargo. With Oil embargo the US became aware that Oil is its lifeblood and resolved to not let anybody choke those supply lines at whatever cost. That's the genesis of all Oil wars in middle east and that's why the US pretty much keeps all countries in the region off balance by promoting conflict.
NOPE. After President Obama's March 2009 Iran Policy. The Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran told the Islamic Shia Government of Iraq, not to negotiate with President Obama or SOS Clinton for the US to remain at the Islamic Nation of Iraq or they would be Overthrown by Iran after the Ayatollahs of Iran laughed at President Obama's "Empty Words" March 2009 Iran Policy (youtube Fars and Al Jazeera video). 2010, The US Military warned President Obama and SOS Clinton that the situation had changed (increased influence of Iran). 2010, The Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran demanded that the Islamic Shia Government of Iraq negotiate with their Allies the Chinese and Russian Federation to get the Contracts for the Iraqis Northern and Southern Oil Fields with the US and US Allies getting NOTHING. This made the Libyan Oil of Strategic Importance to the US and US Allies.
By the way having been involved with the "Middle East" (Islam), Asia, Africa, South and Central Americas, etc. as "Middle East" Qualified US Military Asymmetric Warfare Officer ever since the US Military Training Teams to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars, rotated to Operation Cyclone. Those of us that survived from then are all going back on retirement and no more recalls again again and again. It is someone else's turn as according to President Obama, "US Military Service is a Civic Duty".
China is behaving like every country in the world that has become a world power - like a bully.
Finally the World is catching on that the Chinese are the greatest Gangsters and Parasites on the planet!
They evicted 500,000 of their own Beijing residents without recourse to prep/beautify the city for their Olympics - do you think they give a squat of other people, let alone other races?!
They are whole-sale ravaging the environment and wild life of other lands (not to mention their own) in pursuit of their un-ending thirst for resources, and insane ivory-based 'medicine'.
They have and still commit the greatest grand theft on property rights and patent/copyrights violations the world economy has ever known - and we still have seditious enablers like GE, Walmart, et. al., helping them deplete our manufacturing base and sending it stock and barrel to China!
Hello folks, here we go again, the U.S. trying to control the world. The warmongers have to admit that they are in alignment with the current U.S. governments goal of global domination. Through their support of subjugating and vanquishing sovereign countries territories and resources they are just as complicit as those who pull the triggers and drop the bombs. These are also the same people who castigate the truth tellers and whistle blowers.
America's quest for hegemony around the world does not go without consequences, try wearing a United States flag shirt anywhere in the middle east, Europe or South America.
Our last two CEO's have taken the level of hatred of America to new levels through our sheer imperialistic aggression. Bush gave us pre-emptive war and Obama gave us remote controlled war, both ideologies and practices that violate international law.
The U.S. constitution, our most sacred document is meaningless. If our government doesn't even respect the rights of their citizens why should they respect any other countries?
We have been a country for a relatively a short period of time. In that time we have bombed over 65 countries. We have been a country for 236 years and have been at war for 216 of those years.
The ignorant cast judgement on other countries and cultures but fail to turn the magnifying glass on themselves or their own country. We are no better or no worse then any other country!
This idea of civil and global superiority will not end well for us!
We are America, "land of the free" dictator to the rest of the world.
I wonder if China is going to vote "YEA" for the "Law of the Seas Treaty" currently before the United Nations.
If they do, then they can expect to pay a hugh portion of their Natural Resources taken from the "Sea" to landlocked Worldwide Nations for redistribution by the United Nations. Nah, they wouldn't agree to that.
Then, there is the issue with U.N. restrictions on shipping weapons via the sea to their "allies".
1972 Nixon: This story is not new. It has been going on for a long time enriching the coffers of the wealthy insider investors. I say insider because they are privileged to information before the public, and pay lobbyists to grease the cogs of justice to tweak or intemperate the laws in their favor. China is at this juncture in history do to large worldwide corporations, with the help of the elite communists leaders in exploiting the Chinese people. P.S. China also pollutes at 10 times the rate we have ever done, so say goodbye to the ozone real soon. I wonder how many people die there from no environmental standards?
h from bronx
1st paragraph above. "east coast of china". Must have been dozing during elememtary geography class.
..............and the problem is? I'm not aware that there is a west coast of China, but perhaps I was dozing in class as well..
@ On It, stop your idiocy. which countries is USA claiming? if people around the world are given the chance to migrate to any country they will run to USA and not russia or china. do you ever wonder why? everything else you won't understand.
TrustVerify
Hello folks, here we go again, the U.S. trying to control the world
................Perhaps had we tried harder in the 1930s, WWII could have been avoided, something to the effect that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it..
I don't know if a war with China will result over the China Sea resources, but war with China is inevitable for many reasons. It will happen.
OK Dave, let's start with Latin America which we did our best to turn into one huge banana republic. It's true that we didn't take their natural resources and pile them directly into Fort Knox, but we did "protect" our corporations against "criminals" who were trying to prevent their countries and people from being raped. We could look at the Pacific Islands, the Middle-East (Standard Oil). You don't get to claim innocence because it was your "private corporation" that committed the rape, backed up by your military.
As to your comment regarding "our standard of living". No, not unless you are a significant investor in one of the rapist companies.
PS...let's not forget the 15 or so "million" American Indians we killed over land and gold, then broke every treaty we ever signed with them.
Dave, we're not the devil anymore than anyone else...but we're not virgins either so don't pretend we are.
On cue ... here spawns the narcissistic Starbucks double-latte (non-fat of course) sipping liberals, carrying on with their bloated self-congratulatory and 'enlightened' self-image as pseudo-Steve Jobs (with requisite turtle-necks of couse) 'world-citizens' seeing only beauty and benign intent in China, while us lowly mundane-pay workers see the predatory avarice of a world-leading parasite!
TrustVerify,
Regarding your shirt comment (17.1).
Please list the foreign countries where you have spent time, how long you were there, and why you were there. Your statement rings false to people who have truly traveled and spent extended time overseas.
Go ahead, list 'em.
I believe a conflict with China is inevitable. It's desire for oil and minerals and China's growing confidence in it's rising power is what made Obama nervous last year and the reason he deployed air assets to Australia. China would love to have Australia's vast mineral and gas deposits. If they can't have those they'll probably attempt to seize the disputed islands. I agree we should defend Japan an ally, but certainly not Vietnam or the Philippine's that kicked us out of bases there.
A lot of the Chinese confidence comes from the inexperienced obama. It is his lack of knowledge and his niativity that he has that inspires others to take advantage of the US.
The chinese government is a gluttinous monster, gobbling up as much of the earths resources as possible. They are extremely dangerous, fat little bullies who have no standing on this planet and can't understand why no one agrees with any of their positions on any subject you care to name.
The US government is a gluttinous monster, gobbling up as much of the earth's resources as possible. They are extremely dangerous, fat little bullies who have no standing on this planet and can't understand why no one agrees with any of their positions on any subject you care to name.
ottovonranke,
You go John! Have a nice weekend dude...
Creek Dog,
I'm so sorry for your short sighted tiny brain in your meat ball on your neck.
OK boys, put your little peckers away, drop and give me 20! If you can't play nice, we will have to bring out the Palin's, Bachmann's, and Limbaugh's of the Universe!
Maybe shipping all of those jobs to China making them stronger while making the US weaker wasn’t such a good idea after all. I guess Lenin was right about one thing when he said ”The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them".
@Truth Hurts,
Well, "thank you".
Have a nice weekend. :-)
insouciance, as opposed to those Liberal genius's Pelosi, Schultz, and of course Biden
Rev: Exactly. Before we are worry about Asia, we should try to avoid falling off the Fiscal Cliff, first.
@Creek Dog,
Oh yea, I'm in the US. I'm behind the curtain and taking your job. Oh, wait, I'm not. You are not qualified to do my job!!!
Ha ha. Good one.
Behind the curtain in booth #3? You're correct, your job behind the curtain starts with a "B" & ends with a "W" before the job part which I definitely" am not qualified for. LOL. Just messin' dude. Relax.. having a little fun here.
Have a nice weekend...
That's right Wlee - Pelosi, Schultz and Biden aren't threatening to invade more countries. I suggest if you and your right-wing, neo-con talk show heroes and tea bagger politicians really want a war that much...ruck-up and move it Israel. It looks like they are about ready to kick one off.
wow i really have to say that bolth sides are at fault here ...... yes capitalism and corporate greed have sold our manufacturing base to china ..... and any third world country that could sustain our need for cheap goods .... and now with citizens united .... the foreign corporations can start REALLY messing with our political system .... so democrats no china is not a plushy friendly place ...... republicans .... IF you want this country to thrive PUT SOME REGULATIONS WITH TEETH ON WALL STREET ..... these companies can be an arm of foreign governments ..... if you don't believe me look up the east indies trading company and its history
@John-3302557 & @Creek Dog
Allow me to share my thoughts listed (previously) on defenders of China ...
"On cue ... here spawns the narcissistic Starbucks double-latte (non-fat of course) sipping liberals, carrying on with their bloated self-congratulatory and 'enlightened' self-image as pseudo-Steve Jobs (with requisite turtle-necks of couse) 'world-citizens' seeing only beauty and benign intent in China, while us lowly mundane-pay workers see the predatory avarice of a world-leading parasite!"
Also, as a side comment, but related with what the rest of the world has to contend with, and specifically relating to the disturbing control-obsessed nature of China's government ... when noting the wonderful, free and eclectic nature of both the much better opening and closing ceremonies of the London Olympics, the Beijing Olympics had all the charms of a ... Trained Ant Colony!
Ol Doc, first off I'm an Independent , second who said anything about war, my point was both parties have their winners. BTW I've been to Israel and it's a rather nice place, also what exactly is ruck up move it Israel suppose to mean?
The MONITORs display double standard again.
Posts #3.0 and #3.1 have exact same wording, yet #3.1 got collapsed but not #3.0.
So to rubbish Chinese government is ok but not ok to US government. What a pathetic hypocracy and double standards displayed.
I envision a day quickly approaching when a state creates a landfill atoll or island in the S. China Sea (and elsewhere) for purposes of establishing a claim to adjacent waters and what lies beneath them. These competing states are so intent on creating 'facts on the ground.' Next will be 'facts at sea.'
Looks like the USA is looking for an excuse for another Viet-Nam War, for exactly the same REAL reason the USA fought there the first time around.
Oh look- yet MORE pointless, asinine war quagmire 'opportunities' for for the U.S. to be drawn in to. No doubt, the MIC and Haliburton are frothing at their mouths at this one.
Hey BIllary, McStain, Looserbiberman, et al - here's your cue!
Pffffffffft.
Where do we think the reporter and editor got the idea ?
just say no mo reaganomics !!! banned, re-reg of multiple accounter weareinbettershape.
With so much going on and the US government wants to down size our Armed Forces.
Who will be watching over the USA if we are busy watching over every other country?
exactly. But it is about pouring money into our Pentagon hoi palois and the defense corporations. They only want you to think of the poor sob in a foreign land who really is being abused or subjugated. Because Americans are mostly saps about this stuff they give the OK for these sheisters to raid the treasury to keep us safe and rescue the downtrodden. Keep showing us pictures of poor folks on the other side of the world and say "only you can prevent torture and suffering" and these emotional Americans will approve any and every level of action to save the victims. The people living there don;t have to do anything like make alliances with their neighbors to protect each other. They have only to wait for the US to step in. Then we bomb a village by accident and everyone hates us. But the Pentagon hoi palois get rich !
IReadyou - I agree with your point of view, but "hoi polloi" means commoners, "riff-raff," "peons," and other such terms for the many rather than the few. I'm sure you don't think pentagon contractors are commoners. Personally, I think they're bloated parasites.
Pull out of foreign countrys and close bases.Develop our energy,here in the usa. End the wars!
thanks laughing: you are correct. I misused the word. I meant the top brass and the contractor Officers and Executives.
IReadyou, Yes, I also mean the top brass and contractors are parasites of the worst kind.
After all we "only" have a military budget that is 41% of the total words military spending.We outspend every other nation several times over.And yet with all that,according to what I see on these boards,and from the right-wing.We still aren't safe enough,geez.The military-industrial complexes here are the biggest welfare queens the world has ever seen.Between that spending,tax breaks for the rich,allowing companies to ship jobs overseas,companies hiring illegals to drive Americans wages down.Its a wonder the common people here (also known as the 99% of Americans) have anything left to give.But now we have a Republican candidate that makes 20M a year,ran companies notorious as job out-sourcers,paid less taxes than any regular American.And to put the icing on the cake,has foreign secret bank accounts for his loot,like any crook.But he and his ilk think he has the "qualifications" to lead this country.And there are actually some Americans that will end up voting for this dude.
And so it goes.... through the centuries. Human's folly, fighting over bits of land that are mostly uninhabited
I suggest a methodical island hoping campaign until we can get aircraft within reach on the main island then systematically fire bomb the wooden villages and cities until the Emperor accepts un conditional surrender.
... we fear that not many here actually understand this ... but well said ... the 14th century mindsets are running amok ...
Really? Viet Nam dresses their sailors like that?
Hand-me-downs from the US navy during the 60s.
Don't underestimate embarrassment and shame as a profound motivator to fight to the death...
... heck ... I thought the Village People were going to go on tour, again ...
Hussein Zero will Bow. And in January after he is sworn in, Romney will start to put China back in it's place. Weakness like Zero's is rewarded with disrespect. littel barry, the man-chid is PATHETIC!
If you can't spell "little" properly, I think you're the one with issues. NO President is going to confront China and face global nuclear war. Romney, a MORMON is a pacifist.
And only children think that invoking the name " Hussein " is even remotely intelligent.
guess you never made a mistake typing!
Romney talks like a war monger,Obummer is the laughing stock of the world.He is totally unqualified for the job.Why Valarie Jarret is giving him advise? We need an adult. Ron Paul would have been the best choice,anti war and willing to tackle our debt.Romney is better than Obama though.
Ron
So please tell us exactly where you have traveled to determine that Obama is "the laughing stock of the world". Because my husband works overseas and has for years. We also travel a lot. I can tell you from personal experience that the 'world' has a great deal of respect for Obama and the US. Bush did us a great disservice and gave the US a couple of really black eyes and a bloody nose in the rest of the world. You have no idea how much damage Bush did and how much Obama has been able to repair.
Don't put your own narrow views on the rest of the world. Most don't agree with you.
So, It's perfectly for US to play in Asia's back yard, and China cannot play in American backyard? hmmm.... Russians and Chinese should send their destroyers to Hawaii for a spin. We'll then see how America feel.
So, get the F out, and mind your own business.
Why sure it is! We are there at the invitation of all those countries who feel threatened by the PRC:
Philippines, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, S Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Australia.... and now Burma which has flipped to the West.
I don't recall any invitations from Hawaii, which is still part of the greater United States, for any visits from the PRC navy.
Oh yea. US slaughtered all the Hawaiian activists back then, just like the Indians.
And threatened? Tell me 1 incident they put a gun in their throat and threatened. You idiot. Japan is threatening the Chinese, aren't they?
And Philippines, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, S Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Australia are all threatening each other eh? They all have disputed islands with each other in case your chose not to remember.
It's always convenient to blame on the bigger country.
You can be afraid to get bullied by the bigger country, just don't automatically assume it without evidence.
Facts! people. Unless you are so ignorant and totally believe what media tells you.
The entire Asian Continent has long standing territorial disputes that were not mentioned in the news article. China and Russia, for example, both claim a part of Siberia north of the current Sino-Russian border. During the Soviet Period violent border disputes between military forces of the two countries broke out fairly regularly. Diplomats have long feared China will move into that area when her population expansion demands more space. Keep in mind that China has one billion, three hundred million people and that China and the U.S. are about the same size geographically. The USA's population is not yet three hundred million. Also, keep in mind that 80% of the Chinese population lives in an area roughly the size of the USA between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mississippi River. The Gobi Desert and the Himalayan Mountain Range prevent large amounts of people living in those areas of China. Further, there is a great deal of racial hatred among much of Asia's populations that has endured for centuries. These problems are diplomatic nightmares that must be worked out between and among these nation-states.
You are close. According to the U.S. Census the current U.S. population: 314,225,988
Can't post the link because NBC always deletes them when I do.,
The U.S. Census estimates the world population to be: 7,034,862,721
You are correct about China. Their current population is estimated to be: 1,344,130,000 +/- a few million.
Big war coming. Probably sooner than later. I'm sure China is eager to test her new military might.
I thought the chinese learned something from the defeat of Opium War more than 100 years ago, but their recent behaviors indicate they have not. We may have to give them a bitter lesson again.
extremekicksdotcom banned for grenade trolling.
Time to reopen Clark and or Subic Bay, or make a joint base on Luzon as well as reopening closed bases in Taiwan, Johnson Island and many others. Expansionism is what started WWII, and it appears that history will repeat itself.
There was a time when the Japanese people would hop in their rikshaws (boats), row across the water and would literally eat the Chinese lunch. How have things changed, now the shoe is on the other foot. And if history is a good teacher then this situation is far from over. It's amazing how the Chinese have turned the tables, I guess with foreign vulture (ahem) venture capitalist pioneering with investment money. Making them the power that they are today.Yeah buddy, I can already see this "Vulture flip-flopping Capitalist" setting a strong agenda against them...
So maybe we cut these folks a little slack, let them handle their scandal. Because after all if the US wouldn't be holding up some nations over there. I belive that this current scenario would be played out differently.
Uh, rikshaws are pretty much pedicabs. Not boats
Comedy relief is always welcome. The visual picture you created; of Japanese people pedaling rickshas en masse from Japan, over the disputed waters without sinking and landing safely on China's shores is priceless. Destination? Chinese restaurants.
Mankind will fight over most anything it seems.
Simple solution: first country to form a permanent settlemet on the disputed islands can claim the property as theirs.The inhabitants must live there 24/7 for at least one full year to file claim. KInd of a homestead act.
If that settlement leaves,the island becomes abandoned and the real estate and up for grabs once again.
Money is not the root of all evil but the love of money is, we have the technology to make this world a paradise, unfortunately mankind is like a bunch of greedy monkey's that will thieve, kill and destroy because they want all the bananas.
I couldn't have said it better myself!
Mark--I agree!! The human species is selfish and territorial. We have found the enemy, and he is us.
The behavior on the part of these Asian countries shows just how little they have evolved without a big papa to keep them in check. If you think about the history of many of these places the longest periods of peace and prosperity were when they were colonies of p[laces like the UK or France.
Right. Americans are very evolved, because they don't argue. Americans slaughter and enslave. Tell that to the Indians, black people, and Hawaiian people. Oh, I almost forgot, Iraqis, Afgans, and many many others.
American way or no way -- typical red neck mentality
Well here's President Obama's chance to become a "great" president like his predecessor! Only this time I'm pretty sure we will find weapons of mass destruction, or they'll find US!
Truth Hurts, without America the rest of the world would still be sucking the teat
PRober---what do you mean "only this time"? The U.S. did find them in Iraq and if you believe otherwise you were lied to by your biased media!!!
* On June 23, 2004, U.S. forces seized 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium at a nuclear facility in Iraq. This is the type of fuel that can be used to make nuclear weapons. It was also reported by the BBC (a frequent critic of the war) that the U.S. Department of Energy removed over a thousand "powdered" radioactive sources. These could be used to make a very effective dirty bomb.
* Polish troops in Iraq, upon receiving intelligence that insurgents in their sector were buying WMD, bought 17 chemical weapon warheads for $5,000 each from Iraqis to keep them from the insurgents. Tests confirmed that these warheads contained cyclosarin which is five to 10 times more effective (read deadly) than the sarin used on the Tokyo subway attack. Also, all munitions containing cyclosarin were reported destroyed by U.N. enforcers between 1991 and 1998. Apparently not.
* On Aug. 8, 2005, U.S. soldiers raided a warehouse in Mosul, Iraq, and found 1,500 gallons of chemical agents.
* On May 17, 2004, a U.S. convoy was attacked by a roadside bomb that was found to be an improvised device made from an artillery shell containing the nerve agent sarin.
William
Perhaps in the last 100 years but you do realize that civilization in 'these countries' is actually much older than Europe. Much of Asia and SE Asia were very civilized while Europe was groveling in the Dark Ages.
Who knows where they would have been if not for 'colonialism' by the European powers.
@wlee-950886
Sure... all the killing and slavery are justified now with 1 sentence. Nice!
Truth Hurts, sure we are the only ones who ever did this. BTW I'm not justifying anything. America is and will always be the best country in the world so get over it. Why else does everyone want to immigrate here.
They come here to get jobs (funny sounding today).They work cheaper regularly,and so they can many times get jobs.But we aren't the only place they come to.The EU countries,Canada,Australia,the Gulf States,are awash in immigrants trying to get in.We aren't the big draw that we used to be.Our media just rarely reports on these things and most people don't know about it.These immigrants coming here are 90% or so coming here for economic reasons no matter what you may hear.
America's Navy - nothing like it on the planet. Go Navy - Meanwhile back at the ranch - I remember when China and Viet Nam got into a spat and with 36 hours 180,000 Chinese had crossed the border and gave Viet Nam a pretty good spanking. This is going to get interesting and America's Navy is ready
you are mistaken, we were ready, now we are broke.
Kirk,
Calm down. stop taking hormones that provoke your inner aggression. Talk and negotiate. Don't just fight. Put your guns down and think for the first time.
why Hillary should speak on this topic is unrealistic, Communist China is doing what it wants here in the U.S. and abroad, it is foolish for the U.S> to say we will protect or side with an ally when we do not side with our own citizens, we permit technology secrets to be given to our known enemy, and jobs relocate to build products cheaper and faster to the benefit of whom, our citizens in the U.S. are having trouble yet our government is pandering to special interests, rather then defend the Constitution they are traitors.
Best post I have read in a long time - Nothing like the Patriot Act and NDAA2012 to make a person wonder what happened to the constitution and the bill of rights and those two items are just the ice above the surface and pale in comparison to the EPA's new found powers
Quotelawrence,
What you need to understand is, the manufacture jobs are not coming back to the US. Just swallow it.
Better yourself so you don't have to do the blue collar jobs. If China stop manufacturing crap, the Vietnamese and Indians will. It's the Corporations you need to manage. But I'm sure you are a republican thinking the corporations will come and rescue you. Have fun with that.
Quit whining
It's going to be interesting since the US has been stupid and corrupt enough to outsource military contracts to China, imagine if we did that with Germany during World War II.
it is a national threat and yet we play business as usual, I want our government to start practicing protectionism, or it will be to late, our markets, our property, our nation is for sale how ridiculous, politics.
We the People of The United States are no better then Penn State, because we refuse to accept what is really going on in this country and how both major parties are involved. Republicans and Democrats two sides of the same hand, American citizens don't have control of America anymore it is now controlled by industrialized elitist that only care about profit not who lives or dies. The US goes on with it's own agenda and keeps it's people well divided and conquered. The USA is burning while the career politicians serve their special interest masters,it doesn't matter who gets in as long as big money decides both parties, I'm going to keep voting every incumbent out and for as many independents as I can. If everyone did that it wouldn't change the government in one election but it would sure shake them up to realize that if they do not start serving the people over big money contributions they will be finding temporary employment.The only thing that is going to save the country is putting the pressure on government to serve the people rather then self interests. The major problem is that we really don't hold all of our leaders accountable. We let them toss the hot potato of blame back and forth blaming each other. The truth is that they are all responsible for making excuses rather then solving problems while serving their own self interests then the country that they have sworn an oath to protect. We seem to have either totally incompetent people in power, totally corrupt people or both from what I can see of the direction that this world is heading.Unfortunately the rest of the country will keep putting the sold out traitors back in office until we become another third world country with only the rich overlords and the poor slave class .One election won't change much but if the people stand together and start voting these traitors out of office it will send them the message that we the people are mad as hell and not going to let them buy and sell our country anymore, either way we as a people will get the government that we deserve.
Mark, couldn't agree with you more, unfortunately there are a lot of brain dead people out there who can't see for themselves. They blindly follow the leader regardless of where they take us.
Mark, you're right on the money my friend, I wonder how did microprocessor found it self into F-15 Eagles and other our military hardware. All I can think because our corporate America become so greed just like wallstreet folks. It's all about profit, all mighty $$$$$.
We the people can still save this country but we will have to wait till November to find out if we will start. It doesn't matter how strong your roof is if you let your house rot from the inside out.
Mark, you said it very well. Just like the best way to get a rich man's attention is to hit him in the wallet, the best way to get a powerful man's attention is to cut into his power. If this country were to elect 20 to 30 Independent congressmen nationwide neither party would hold a majority. That would take away a good bit of their power because either side could vote along party lines all day long and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. This would also FORCE compromise by both sides to work with the Independents to get anything passed. Since the Independents will not be bound by party politics they can introduce legislation that would repeal the Patriot Act and NDAA 2012 - 1031 and publicly call out those that oppose repealing these two items at least. There is no legitimate reason to defend either of these laws since they are both very much unconstitutional. That would be a start and possibly the beginning of the end of "Party First, Country If We Get Around To It" politics that we see today. Both parties are extremely guilty of this practice of feathering their own nests at the cost of the country and it's citizens.
Voting in this country should never be a Team Sport since both "Teams" suck the life and freedom out of this country and it's people. We should never vote for the lesser evil or vote against somebody. We should always vote for the best person for the job whoever that may be. Voting a straight ticket is just plain voter laziness or totally following blindly. There has never been, is not now, and never will be any party or group where all of their candidates are the best people for the job and anybody that thinks different doesn't have the intelligence to cast a meaningful vote, I don't care who you are.
Research the Independents and vote for the ones you agree with. Only by electing 20 or 30 or more Independents to congress will we ever begin to make a change in the way things are done. The party shills we have now fuss and argue for the cameras to keep the people divided and go out for dinner and drinks together at the end of the day, laughing all the while about how they have us bickering and divided. Most of them are lawyers for gods sake, and that's what lawyers do.
If Congress managed our money like they do their own we would all be getting a diviodend check every year like Alaska does.
Thank God Soldiers Dad, I didn't think there were anymore people left that were not hypnotized.
You have to squint pretty hard to see through the fog the two parties have created to keep themselves in power over the last 158 years.
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. The insanity of electing either of the two parties to power has to stop before anything can change.
A very long time ago ... there was a man named George Washington ... he tried to warn us about these things ... as did Eisenhower ... no one wanted to hear.
They still do not want to hear and so hear, they do not.
Wow--a lot of good posts on this thread! Right on, Mark! And to Voice of Doom's comment above, I will add Thomas Jefferson to the list.
1.3 billion people, more cash revenue then any time in history of the world who is going to stop them China has awoken beware.
Vast oil reserves..
Is the only reason the USA is there..Greed and corrupt.But hey population controls coming.The only business who will benefit from this is the Funeral Director...
WE were there for over 70 years before the reserves were discovered. Be more ridiculous why don't you.
He may just do that Jeff.
...
The U. S. has the leverage with China !!
We should just tell them that, if they do not do as we want, we will stop borrowing money from them.
They will capitulate.
Interest income from the U. S. is a sizeable chunk of their economy.
...
China been surviving a lot longer than America though of being a Country..You going to tell China what? LOL
China in its current form (IE ruled by a communist party has been around for at best 100 years). before that it was a collection of feudal kingdoms.
This is nice, and it will get bloody. But we hold the cards right now. I say we side up with every little guy in the area and then say you want your money bitch come get it. To big to fail. if your going to do something stupid you might as well do it big time. China doesn't want a fist fight nor can they handle one. So if your going to bloody the bullies nose do it now!
CBR.. You have a big mouth for a guy who is not able to save a dime of his monthly salary. They can afford to lose the money that they have loaned to USA, but USA can't do without borrowing money from China. So you just come down and be a good boy. And as for the fist fight; they do not one because they are smart. China have a plan as oppose we in USA have none; we are guided only by greedy business interest looking to make a quick buck.
Nips, chinks, and gooks. Who the hell cares? Not our fight.
What is it like to be a narrow minded racist?