Car crash politics: Laws don't touch rich in Thailand

AP

Police officers look at a motorcycle and Ferrari that were involved in a hit-and-run accident during an investigation at Thong Lor police station in Bangkok, Thailand, on Monday.

BANGKOK, Thailand – Shortly before dawn on Monday in an upscale area of Bangkok, a 27-year-old Thai man driving a Ferrari crashed into a policeman on a motorcycle.  The driver dragged him more than 100 yards along the road before fleeing the scene. The policeman, 47-year-old Sgt. Maj. Wichien Glanprasert, was killed. 

The furious reaction to the incident this week has shown one thing above all: most Thais have no faith in their justice system.

‘I don’t believe in Thai justice’
The driver of the car was Vorayuth Yoovidhya, scion of one of the richest families in Thailand. His grandfather, Chaleo Yoovidhya, founded the Red Bull energy drink empire. Forbes magazine ranked the family as Thailand's fourth richest (not including the royal family) earlier this year with a net worth of $5.4 billion.  

Thais know from long experience that the wealthy are rarely held accountable for their crimes. 


Red Bull heir held over deadly hit-and-run in Ferrari

“As long as you are rich and powerful, you can get away with everything,” said 40-year-old Ubonwan Weeyanond. “I don’t believe in Thai justice, it’s only a privilege for the rich, not for poor people.” 

Vorayuth fled back to his family's compound after the accident – police followed oil streaks for several blocks to the gate of the family mansion.

Str / AFP - Getty Images

Vorayuth Yoovidhya, the 27-year-old grandson of late Red Bull founder Chaleo Yoovidhaya, during the police investigation on Monday.

The family then enlisted the help of local police official Lt. Col. Pannapon Nammuang to concoct a tale that somebody else – the family driver – had been at the wheel when the accident happened, according to Bangkok police.

But online outrage forced the police to change their tune.

Bangkok’s top police official, Lt. Gen. Comronwit Toopgrajank sidelined Pannapon (who denied wrongdoing, but admitted knowing the family well) and declared he would bring the culprit to justice.

"We will not let this police officer die without justice. Believe me," Comronwit said Tuesday. "The truth will prevail in this case. I can guarantee it."

Vorayuth was charged with causing death by reckless driving and escaping arrest by police, but was released on $16,000 bail Tuesday.

Comronwit said that Pannapon, the officer who allegedly tried to cover up the crime, could be fired and brought up on criminal charges, according to a Bangkok Post report on Wednesday.

‘Do they think people are stupid?’
Still, Thais remain skeptical that the wealthy young man will see the inside of a prison cell.

“Thai police often make someone a scapegoat.  They should not cover up the case because how many people in this country have a Ferrari?” said Varattaya Intarakong, a 38-year-old business owner. “Do they think people are stupid? But I believe that this guy will not be jailed.”

This wouldn’t be the first time the child of a wealthy and influential Thai person got off without punishment after committing a crime.

In a notorious case in December 2010, a 16-year-old girl driving a Honda Civic without a license collided with a passenger van that spun out of control. Nine people were killed in the crash. But the girl who caused the crash came from a privileged family and received only a two-year suspended sentence. 

‘Teach him how to be responsible’
Vorayuth's case has generated particular anger because he failed to stop to help the policeman, and tried to get a member of his family's staff to take the blame instead.

Several Thais commented online that people who try to shift the blame onto a scapegoat should not be granted bail.

The dead policeman's brother, Pornanand Glanprasert, said he's particularly bitter about Vorayuth's failure to stop and help.

“I can't accept how the driver hit my brother and sped away. If he hit him and got out of the car immediately, my brother might have survived,” said Pornanand. “When I realized that he’s a son of well-known people, I want his family to teach him how to be responsible, not run away like this.”

‘Double standards’
The issue of "double standards" for the wealthy and privileged is highly politically charged in Thailand. Many Thais argue that the courts sell justice to the highest bidder, and the tattered reputation of Thailand's judiciary has sunk even lower in recent years due to several clumsy political interventions by the courts. 

But the prospects for things to improve appear dim. The current Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubumrung was himself involved in an infamous case a decade ago when several witnesses saw his son, Duang Yubumrung, murder a policeman in a nightclub with a pistol.

Duang went on the run for months, the family invented a mysterious scapegoat who they claimed was actually to blame, and witnesses began changing their testimony -- suddenly declaring that perhaps Duang was not the shooter after all.

When he came out of hiding, Duang was cleared of murder, and despite widespread public revulsion, the distasteful saga did not damage his father's political career.

Ferraris and fiery crashes around Asia
Monday's incident is just the latest in a series of Ferrari crashes in Asia that have exposed national political divisions.

In Singapore, where many residents are concerned about the level of immigration, particularly from mainland China, there was widespread outrage over an accident in May. A wealthy Chinese man crashed his Ferrari at high speed into a taxi, killing himself, the taxi driver and a Japanese woman who was a passenger in the taxi. 

And in China an explosive story concerning another Ferrari crash is creating a political storm in Beijing.

The South China Morning Post reported this week that a Ferrari crash in March -- which was swiftly covered up -- killed Ling Gu, the 23-year-old son of one of Chinese President Hu Jintao’s most trusted aides, Ling Jihua.  

The younger Ling was allegedly driving recklessly with two semi-naked girls when the crash happened, leaving one of them paralyzed, according the newspaper.

The newspaper says his father's political career was damaged by his attempts to cover up the crash. Perhaps it’s a sign that even China's powerful have less impunity than Thailand's wealthy.

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Discuss this post

Jump to discussion page: 1 2

It's no different here in the US. George Bush got out of a DWI. Ted Kennedy killed a girl in Chappaquiddick.

OJ Simpson. Robert Blake. Etc.

  • 17 votes
#1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:25 PM EDT

Yep - a friend of mine came here from Scotland and said how he was surprised at the amount of corruption in the US

In Philly alone we have had local reps with government cars but they do not have valid driver's licenses (Angel Ortiz) and the cops said...well we have no eye witnesses so we cannot charge him.

Grease that palm baby!!!

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:58 PM EDT

Add Laura Bush to the list, vehicle manslaughter, but did not spend a day in jail.

  • 11 votes
#1.2 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 1:01 PM EDT

And Dick Cheney, drinking beer with a loaded gun, shoots another guy. Didn't the guy apologize for getting in the way of Dick's gun?

  • 14 votes
#1.3 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 2:32 PM EDT

Not much has changed in Thailand since the early 70s. The victims family will be compensated and everything will return to the way it was before. My sympathies to the policeman's family.

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 3:55 PM EDT

About the same here. John Goodman DUI in Florida killed a man and sentenced to 16 years. Where is he? At home serving his time of course. And his home is a huge mansion.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:48 PM EDT

Thailand is basically one giant whorehouse. If you got the cash, you can get whatever you want.

  • 8 votes
#1.6 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:12 PM EDT

So if these folks are so rich, why live in a 3rd world armpit like Thailand? I guess if you have the freedom to do whatever you want without the bother of values, morality, justice, etc, the fact that you live within a bowl of filth doesn't matter. After all, these guys are just rich filth, but filth all the same.

  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:48 PM EDT

Not always there was one ray of hope Bill Janklow 4 time Governor of South Dakota was convicted of Vehicular manslaughter in 2003 forcing him to resign.

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:54 PM EDT

Get a rope and hang the young bastard... then let the devil teach him respect for other lives.

  • 1 vote
#1.9 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 8:15 PM EDT

@ElektroFreak

I can see you've never been to Thailand or you wouldn't be calling it a "3rd world armpit". Thailand is beautiful people with a rich cultural tradition. It is filled with warm and friendly people who readily greet you with a smile. It is even nicknamed the "Land of Smiles". The capital, Bangkok, is like any just about other large city of the 21st century world, 1st world or 3rd world. Just a few kilometers down Sukhumwit Road, where the spoiled rich kid in this story lives and where the accident occurred, lies the Siam Paragon shopping center, which is as modern as any in the world.

You also might want to consider too that Thailand is almost totally devoid of natural disasters. Once every decade or two they have problems with flooding as they did last year, and the once in a century or so there might be a tsunami which hit the Indian Ocean coast in 2004. But they have no problems with earthquakes or volcanoes, and the geographical configuration of the country makes it very difficult for typhoons to hit the country. How many countries can make that claim? The persistent rainfall makes an abundance of food possible. Nobody is starving in Thailand.

Certainly Thailand has its share of political problems as was manifested in the violence of 2010, and the rich-poor divide is there as seen in our story. But as documented by the OP here, that is not unique to Thailand. It exists anywhere. Also, by and large you do not the religious violence in the country you see elsewhere. The problems of that sort seen in Thailand are almost exclusively confined to the three southernmost provinces bordering Malaysia. Most of the rest of the country has little crime or violence.

Finally, I would point out that the rich kid in this story probably wants to be where people speak his language. which is probably why he is where he is. Thai is only spoken by maybe 1% of the world's population, and chances are he may not have a good command of other languages. But then again, why should he? He is living like a king in his own country. He obviously has too much disposable income to go racing around like that in a million-dollar Ferrari, putting others at risk. I hope they throw the book at him, but as documented in the story, he probably won't.

Bottom line, ElectroFreak: I would reserve the "3rd World Armpit" label for other countries like Iran, North Korea and Afghanistan, not Thailand. I think they deserve it a lot more.

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 6:14 AM EDT

"People should not fear their government. Government should fear it's people." V (the movie)

  • 4 votes
#1.11 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 8:03 AM EDT

@Ajahncliff: Never been there, never want to go. Fanboy much? You stay over there, I'll stay here how 'bout that? Do us all a favor.

I love how you're like "Well, there's no natural disasters except when they have an occasional natural disaster, and there isn't much crime except when there is, and the people are all great except when they suck, and the politics are totally legit except when they're underhanded. ROFL.. well played!

Bottom line, no matter how far your head is up Thailands filthy little poop chute, the rich family of filth in this story are human garbage, along with anyone in Thailand's justice system who lends to the laughingstock that it is.

    #1.12 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 10:36 AM EDT

    I just wonder if the higher officials would have cared as much if the victim WASN'T a police officer.

    • 2 votes
    #1.13 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 10:45 AM EDT

    Thank you for your intelligent response ElectroFreak. You've bared your soul for all to see. Hope you are proud of yourself.

    Seriously, if you are going to level the "armpit" charge at a nation, you might want to direct it at some locales in your own country. It's not a perfect world wherever you go. At least our story tells us that maybe Thailand is taking a step in the right direction. The latest out of Bangkok is that they are leveling drunk driving charges at the immature young punk who perpetrated this. Maybe he'll even do some hard time, though that is extremely doubtful. They'll probably pay the family of the unfortunate policeman a few million and it will all be swept under the rug.

    Then again, maybe he will skip out of his bail and take your advice to leave the country. Maybe if you're lucky he might even end up in yours!

      #1.14 - Fri Sep 7, 2012 9:28 AM EDT

      About 10 people in the Obama cabinet can also confirm that the rich and powerful get away with anything, including tax evasion, giving guns to cartel members, and hit and runs.

        #1.15 - Fri Sep 7, 2012 11:38 AM EDT

        MrBurns and how about the the George W cabinet you know outing a covert CIA operative which if you or I did we would be in prison for life but Scooter Libby, Karl Rove little time for Scooter nothing for Karl Rove. And then there is all the missing money in Iraq from Haliburton but hey that was the vice presidents company so we'll just turn the other cheek for them.

          #1.16 - Fri Sep 7, 2012 11:59 AM EDT

          It's all about the sociopathic nature of the filthy rich raising kids that have no conscience. They raise the same sociopath as themselves and money hides all the problems until finally it hits a flashpoint, and Voila!

          The kid does something totally sociopathic (killing, dragging and running away) and people wonder how such a rich family could have such a terrible child. It's all about education, and without it, people become automatons with jaded views and screwed up morals. If we don't learn from history, we repeat it, and education puts an end to a lot of the problems when people actually think about others in the world.

            #1.17 - Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:01 PM EDT

            It's not only in Thailand! The list of non-corrupt countries could probably fit nicely on a Post It note in large print. The US justice system is just as bad!

              #1.18 - Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:15 AM EDT
              Reply

              well put Bud...thanks

                Reply#2 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:51 PM EDT

                You could substitute Thailand in the headline with any the name of almost any country and it would still be valid. The rich are a privileged class, and fully consider that their entitlements are well deserved.

                They had better be thankful for religion, for as Napoleon said "it is only religion that prevents the poor from rising up and killing the rich". The countries with the strongest elements of religious tradition are invariably those which exhibit the greatest potential for corruption. This is why the Republican party so strongly associates itself with Christian Conservatism; manipulating and exploiting the ignorant and fearful sinner is relatively easy.

                • 15 votes
                Reply#3 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:52 PM EDT

                That's right, blame it all on conservativism and religion. Never mind the fact that rich politically connected and celebrity liberals get away with the same crimes as well. Or in highly liberal countries like Sweden and Norway where violent criminals and murderers are sentenced to relativly short "prison" terms in luxurious restors. And then there are the far left dictators like Stalin and Mao who are responsible for more murder and suffering than anyone else in history.

                • 1 vote
                #3.1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:15 PM EDT

                resorts*

                  #3.2 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:20 PM EDT

                  Remember, it's only class warfare if the poor and the middleclass talk back.

                    #3.3 - Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:39 AM EDT
                    Reply

                    Charles Koch's son blew a red light and killed a kid in 1994 and got 100 hours of community service. It pays to be rich.

                    • 11 votes
                    Reply#4 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 1:07 PM EDT

                    Interesting about Koch's son, couldn't find any links to it. They have the ability to control many things. Caution is the word.

                      #4.1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 6:46 PM EDT

                      Twelve-year-old Zachary Seibert of Wichita KS was hit crossing the street, and killed by Charles Chase Koch 9/18/94, 16 years-old, son of billionaire Charles Koch. The 16-year-old Charles was driving his car when he sped through a red light and hit Zachary in the cross walk. Charles was charged with misdemeanor vehicular homicide and made to pay Zachary's funeral expenses, community service, defensive driving course, and restrictive curfew for one year.

                      I know poor kids in my community (PA, United States) who have done ALL the listed community service, curfew, fine, multipe courses (drug prevention when the act didn't involve any drugs) (preventative pregnancy courses when no act of sex was involved), and got 6 to 12 months probation for a juvenial act that had "the potential to cause harm." Yes, that's right, the potential to cause harm. The rich kid called in a bomb threat gets less, and the poor kid made the mistake of carrying a sharp item (not a knife). Now what the h--- is wrong with this picture. True story!!!

                      Rich kids get away with murder while poor kids get harsher punishment. No wonder the poor kids become bitter with society. Start treating people equal regardless of how much money the family has.

                      • 3 votes
                      #4.2 - Fri Sep 7, 2012 6:52 PM EDT
                      Reply

                      27 years old? In that picture the guy looks like he's 12!

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#5 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 1:08 PM EDT

                      At least something seems sure, Asians are buying Ferraris. Capitalism is alive somewhere else.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#6 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 2:32 PM EDT

                      Thanks a snappy one liner! Would be funnier if it was truer...

                        #6.1 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 9:06 AM EDT

                        China, Japan, and the ASEAN Countries are the leading market for exoct cars...

                        Capitalism is working well for them...

                        It is the US & EU styles of Capitalism and Politics that are a FAILURE...

                          #6.2 - Sat Sep 8, 2012 4:38 AM EDT

                          Capitalism is working well for the rich in Asian countries. Go figure. How profound.

                            #6.3 - Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:42 AM EDT
                            Reply

                            Just because you can afford it, does not mean you can drive it. All rich douche bags would should be wise: give the Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and especially those Veron's to me and stay out of jail.

                            Yeah, especially the Veron's.....

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#7 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 3:22 PM EDT

                            you mean "Veyron", I think...

                              #7.1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 3:46 PM EDT

                              What Romilio 4 total in the whole country?

                                #7.2 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:31 PM EDT

                                Pardon my fat fingers.

                                I do know what A Veryron is, would love to push the long skinny pedal.

                                P.S. Ferrari 458 is possibly the sexiest car I have ever seen.

                                  #7.3 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 8:10 PM EDT
                                  Reply

                                  Oh this is going to cost his daddy! Stupid rich POS, which one is next to make the headlines.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#8 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 3:30 PM EDT

                                  It's only money...no pain for these people at all.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #8.1 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 9:08 AM EDT

                                  Not true. Daddy values the money more than he values the kid. But he'll pay it anyway so he can make more.

                                    #8.2 - Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:44 AM EDT
                                    Reply

                                    Hey, if you've got the green, you're good. At least that's how it seems around the world. Doesn't seem to me like anyone well-off ever is subject to the same laws the rest of us are.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#9 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:03 PM EDT

                                    Doesn't sound all that difference than America. The only time the wealthy go to prison in our country if at all is when the press get into the fray.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    Reply#10 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:30 PM EDT

                                    There is a local Plano Texas business man (who runs a remote control car company) who almost killed a person while he was showing off in his racetruck in Mexico. His SUPER EGO made the truck accelerate past two surprised track officials at an obscene speed. When he topped the hill he hit and demolished a civilian van with two good samaritans delivering potable water to families. He was lucky the two track officials he blew past were Ex-military medics who were able to help the victims. They threw this schmuck in Mexican jail where he later bought his way out (no doubt using the money from his company sales). Another rich a$$ pays his way out of trouble... the best part of this whole story, while his victims were laying in hospital beds, he posted photos of himself skiing in CO like nothing ever happened.

                                    • 6 votes
                                    Reply#11 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:35 PM EDT

                                    That's disgusting...but totally typical. I'll bet he feels zero remorse. I hope he gets his krmic retribution in a public and traumatic way that doesn't hurt anyone but him!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #11.1 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 9:10 AM EDT

                                    I agree Dixie May. There are a number of folks who feel the same way. I know the KARMA train in his case will be dramatic. He can only hold on for so long before it hits him straight in the face (kind of like his brother did at a race.. knocked him out cold).

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #11.2 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 2:28 PM EDT
                                    Reply

                                    This puts a whole new slant on DWA.

                                      Reply#12 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:42 PM EDT

                                      Is it any different here. Lyndsey Lohan has been arrested a dozen times and released a dozen times. Justin Bieber drives like a maniac and he is not charged. What is the difference?

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#13 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 4:54 PM EDT

                                      Similar things have happened in India multiple times. Everyone knows nothing happens to the rich and connected killer driver, police work exclusively for rich and politicians and victim's family's silence will be ensured by threats to surviving family members' lives.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#14 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:06 PM EDT

                                      Happens in the US all the time! People from the bottom to the top do all they can to avoid punishment. Problem for the bottom is they can't afford to buy their way out.

                                        #14.1 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 9:14 AM EDT
                                        Reply

                                        put the chicken sh_t punk in jail. why not. what the hell . right! is everybody stupid. if they don't put him in jail tier the sh_t hole down.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#15 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 6:03 PM EDT

                                        common thread in these tales...it seems Asians cannot properly drive Ferraris!!!

                                        • 5 votes
                                        Reply#16 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 6:31 PM EDT

                                        That's racist and you know it.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #16.1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:10 PM EDT

                                        'tis, but me me snicker

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #16.2 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 2:30 PM EDT
                                        Reply

                                        Not like in America where, regardless. if your crime is robbing a 7/11 for diapers for your kid, or stealing 16 trillion dollars from the taxpayers, you'll both be .....um ....treated...well, maybe with some deference to the bankers...

                                        Never mind!

                                        • 3 votes
                                        Reply#17 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:04 PM EDT

                                        Mabey it time for vigilanties just. when the law is corupt, the gov. corupt what choice dose real people have. what hope, none. can't wait to see it happen. should be grizzly. and when the rich, spoiled brats, and leader who think they are above all others will ask why, the public will look back in silence with cold stares.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#18 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:15 PM EDT

                                        As tempting as that thought may be, the rich can also afford the best security, so that you wouldn't get within 2 miles of them without getting stopped, searched, arrested, and probably shanked in prison.

                                          #18.1 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:58 PM EDT
                                          Reply

                                          There is a big difference Bud... the four guys you mentioned all had to go to a court of law. Not likely in Thailand.

                                          Unfortunately rich or not this kid has shown he is much less than a man.

                                            Reply#19 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:46 PM EDT

                                            money talks #@%* walks same all over

                                            • 3 votes
                                            Reply#20 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 8:34 PM EDT

                                            Let the people take up a collection and have the driver punished.

                                              Reply#21 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 8:59 PM EDT

                                              Laws don't touch the rich in the US either. Treason, murder, fraud and theft are all legal if you have the right connections.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              Reply#22 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 9:31 PM EDT

                                              A day of reckoning will come for the elite because History repeats itself. The French Revolution is a good example. 99%er's just got sick and tired of the 1%er's antics and abuse. Any body know how to construct a Guillotine?

                                                Reply#23 - Wed Sep 5, 2012 10:20 PM EDT

                                                Patrick,

                                                Be careful what you wish for. We could end up with Obama declaring permanent martial law. Gees. I've lived in other countries. We don't need a revolution, we need a new commander in chief.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #23.1 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 5:11 AM EDT
                                                Reply

                                                The world is run by the rich for the benefit of the rich. The poor are sent off to the far corners of the world to die for them. Wake up.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                Reply#24 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 3:15 AM EDT

                                                John,

                                                so true. The rich get away with anything they want.

                                                No, I'm not anti-rich. It's just the way of the world.

                                                Tina

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #24.1 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 5:09 AM EDT
                                                Reply

                                                welcome to the real world.the rich get richer and the working poor do all the work for nothing.oh well they let us live,sometimes, if we don't get in their way.the have's and the have-nots.we woke up on this planet,looked around and asked...well how does all the land belong to someone else???oh they were born into the money and ownership of land.well how did their ancestors get it??? silly rabbit,tricks are for kids...money,land and power are for the elite...funny how most times the rich are so freakin ugly and their children look worse.and money can't buy beauty,just look at all those fake lips on the rich and famous.uugghh now that's as bad as angelina ugly...or that former olympian/Kardashian(Bruce Jenner),he looks like a freak...watching Clinton lie last nite and all those dummies suc'n it in and believing it all.so stupid.most of them were alive and grown when all that he was lying about happened,but they still nodded their little heads with a smile and believed the fantasy story he told them.that's so absurd...but typical.see most gop are former independants that go with the closest to what they believe.but poor little dem's are sheep who cannot think for themselves...

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#25 - Thu Sep 6, 2012 9:01 AM EDT
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