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AP
Two German officers, left, and a group of Allied officers who were prisoners of war look over a partly emptied mass grave in the Katyn Forest in May 1943.
WARSAW, Poland -- President Franklin D. Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill hushed up evidence that the Soviet secret police had killed thousands of Polish men in the Katyn forest in 1940 for fear of alienating World War II ally Josef Stalin, newly declassified documents show.
An estimated 22,000 Polish military officers and intellectuals were killed in the massacre at Katyn, in western Russia, many of them trucked in from prison camps, shot in the head from behind and shoved into mass graves.
The aim of the Soviets was to eliminate a military and intellectual elite that would have put up stiff resistance to Soviet control. The men were among Poland's most accomplished -- officers and reserve officers who in their civilian lives worked as doctors, lawyers, teachers, or as other professionals. Their loss has proven an enduring wound to the Polish nation.
The killings continue to cast a shadow over relations between Russia and Poland, but the new documents shift the focus elsewhere: to how Washington and London put fears of upsetting the Kremlin before exposing the truth.
Instead, for years they backed the Soviet Union's version of events that Nazi Germany was behind the massacre at Katyn despite dozens of intelligence reports and witness accounts pointing to Soviet involvement.
A telegram from U.S. military intelligence dated May 28, 1943, responding to an offer of information about Katyn, put the allied position bluntly: "If you mean Katyn affair am interested only if report shows German complicity."
That telegram was among 1,000 pages of newly declassified documents and photographs that were released late Monday by the U.S. National Archives in College Park, Md.
The documents -- many of them marked secret or confidential -- included a series of exchanges between Roosevelt, Churchill and Soviet leader Stalin about reports emerging in April 1943 about the massacre.
'Common sense'
Their concerns focused on a demand from the Polish government, in exile in London, for a Red Cross investigation into Soviet involvement in the killings, and a threat from Stalin to break off ties with the Polish government as a result.
Washington and London feared a dispute would harm the effort to defeat Nazi Germany and a letter from Roosevelt to Stalin said that Polish leader Gen. Wladyslaw Sikorski "has erred" in pressing for an investigation.
J. Scott Applewhite / AP
Col. Andrzej Kopacki, right, an assistant military attache with the Polish Embassy in Washington, attends an event on Capitol Hill to announce the release of information about the 1940 Katyn Forest massacre. At left is W.J. Milan-Kamski of Easton, Md., who is a native of Poland and World War II veteran with the Polish Army, 2nd Armored Division.
"I am inclined to think that Prime Minister Churchill will find a way of prevailing upon the Polish government in London in the future to act with more common sense," Roosevelt wrote.
Churchill made a similar point to Stalin, saying in a note he would "oppose vigorously" any Red Cross investigation.
The documents showed that London and Washington had strong evidence of Soviet involvement as early as mid-1943, soon after German forces over-ran the Katyn area and found the mass graves.
Tom Brokaw joins Morning Joe to preview a new special "Their Finest Hour – Britain in 1940-41," which looks at Britain's actions during World War II and how the country stood firm against the Nazis.
This evidence included detailed accounts from officials in the Polish exiled government and reports from U.S. diplomats stating the Polish accounts were reliable.
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Testimony also came from an American prisoner of war, Lt. Col. John H. Van Vliet, who was taken to the massacre site by his German captors and sent coded messages back home about what he saw.
One document showed that people at the heart of the British government knew the Western allies were involved in a cover-up.
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"We have been obliged to ... restrain the Poles from putting their case clearly before the public, to discourage any attempts by the public and the press to probe the ugly story to the bottom," wrote Owen O'Malley, Britain's ambassador to the Polish government in exile, in a May 1943 letter.
"We have in fact perforce used the good name of England like the murderers used the conifers to cover up a massacre."
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Churchill passed the diplomat's candid comments on to Roosevelt in a letter, and recommended that he read them.
But in keeping with the desire at the time to keep the Katyn affair quiet, the British leader asked that Roosevelt return the document afterwards for safekeeping, saying "we are not circulating it officially in any way."
Survivors of the Blitz share their feelings and historian Juliet Gardiner describes London during the strategic, sustained bombing of Britain during World War II.
'The truth was inconvenient'
Izabella Sariusz-Skapska, president of the Katyn Families Federation, said the new documents contained new details about how much was known at the time.
"The Western allies new the exact truth about Katyn, but under war-time conditions, the truth was inconvenient."
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She said she hoped the decision to declassify the U.S. documents would put pressure on the Russian government to open up its own archives about Katyn. "If there is something that we are waiting for, it is there," she said.
Members of a retirement community documented their recollections of WWII in a new book. NBC's Brian Williams reports.
White House maintained silence
In the early years after the war, outrage by some American officials over the concealment inspired the creation of a special U.S. Congressional committee to investigate Katyn.
In a final report released in 1952, the committee declared there was no doubt of Soviet guilt, and called the massacre "one of the most barbarous international crimes in world history." It found that Roosevelt's administration suppressed public knowledge of the crime, but said it was out of military necessity. It also recommended the government bring charges against the Soviets at an international tribunal -- something never acted upon.
More Europe coverage on NBCNews.com
Despite the committee's strong conclusions, the White House maintained its silence on Katyn for decades, showing an unwillingness to focus on an issue that would have added to political tensions with the Soviets during the Cold War.
Of all the daring escapes of World War II, the story of Gyles Mackrell and his elephants is surely one of the most unusual. Documents hidden for the best part of 70 years tell how he rescued hundreds of refugees from the Japanese invasion of Burma... with a little help from some very large friends. ITV's Sally Biddulph.
The declassified documents also show the United States maintaining that it could not conclusively determine guilt until a Russian admission in 1990 -- a statement that looks improbable given the huge body of evidence of Soviet guilt that had already emerged decades earlier. Historians say the new material helps to flesh out the story of what the United States knew and when.
Complete World coverage on NBCNews.com
It was not until the waning days of Soviet hegemony over Eastern Europe that reformist leader Mikhail Gorbachev publicly admitted to Soviet guilt at Katyn, a key step in Polish-Russian reconciliation.
The silence by the U.S. government has been a source of deep frustration for many Polish-Americans. One is Franciszek Herzog, 81, a Connecticut man whose father and uncle died in the massacre. After Gorbachev's 1990 admission, he was hoping for more openness from the U.S. as well and made three attempts to obtain an apology from President George H.W. Bush.
"It will not resurrect the men," he wrote to Bush. "But will give moral satisfaction to the widows and orphans of the victims."
Read more about the records relating to the Katyn massacre at the U.S. National Archives
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
But the truth was "INCONVENIENT" they said!!? >>> & we now still wonder why OUR GOV'T runs rampant with "COVERT" Operations all over the world, as well as RIGHT HERE AT HOME! (INTERMENT CAMPS) with barbed wire are abundant all over this USA, >>> FOR WHAT YUSAY????? No doubt to contain the Japanese again, <> or perhaps maybe the Islaahmikk Sharia Low LAW Yeeee-hawdistzz??? (or mebbe just the citizens of usa, who choose NOT to conform to treasonous ways)
what is not even taught in schools, Russia and Nazi Germany were allies at the beginning of wwII, Russia invaded Poland the day after Germany, Germany gave Russia Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia; when Hitler finally turned on Russia, the west was delighted, it meant the begging of the end to the Nazi's, the Russian winter destroyed the German army's in the east.
The 4th estate strikes again who really give a darn what the russians did in the 40's, 50's and whenever now days this is just something for the radicals in the country to put posts on and think they are experts in History!!!!!
In politics, truth is always an inconvenient affair and no one who has any grasp of political principles would try to deny it in any candid and 'unofficial' conversation on the subject. :-)
A [government] continually strives to do great things to keep [its citizens’] minds uncertain and astonished, and occupied in watching their result. And these actions arise one out of the other, so that they have left no time for men to settle down and act against [it.]
Machiavelli. The Prince, Chapter XXII.
Artifice is permitted to deceive a rival as all means are premitted against one's enemies.
Cardinal Richelieu.
Speech was given to man to disguise his thoughts.
Charles Maurice de Talleyrand
All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia...
Political language — and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists — is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
George Orwell. Politics and The English Language (1946.)
Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side.
George Orwell. Notes on Nationalism (1945.)
[T]ell a lie big enough and keep repeating it [so that] people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as The State can shield the people from the political, economic, and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for The State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of The State.
Joseph Goebels.
Right, Dan.
Who cares about history or the truth? Oh, that's right, intelligent, curious people.
well considering the US and UK were planning the creation of Isreal in the holy land before WWII, i'd say it's true that the truth is often inconvienent.
wasnt it better when we just thought AMERICA, F&*K YEAH!?
Mexico demanded weapons from the US during WW2, then never used a single one to fight Nazi Germany. Could they have been working with the Nazis??
Best I remember Mexico was courted by Germany during WWII and Mexico entertained them. Mexico isn't and never has been a genuine friend to the U.S. Of course, that probably goes both ways.
The Russian war crimes in WW2 were far worse than those of Germans. And the Allies knew it too. The barbarism Soviets unleashed on the conquered German population is still something nobody wants to talk about. By some estimates Soviets raped 80% of German women aged 12 to 60 and murdered 2.5 million German people after the war was over, both soldiers and civilians.
" The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million men is a statistic."
Josef Stalin
The Russian people had to resort to eating dead human flesh in order to survive. Only a Russian can judge a Russian.
Amazing. People get a clue.
In 1943 the Soviets were turning the tide on the Eastern Front and we Americans had barely succeeded in taking back north Africa and Sicily.
Pissing off the soviets would not have accomplished anything and they would have lied about anyway just like they did for 50 years after the war.
Grow Up. and yes we were right for dropping the Bomb on the Japanesse too in order to save 1 million casualties.
Max^108, the Russians justed served up the dish that the Germans had served to them. The German invasion of Russia was a brutal as they come. Millions of Russians where lined up an shot. Soviet POWs where not treated according to the Geneva Convention and died by the millions. The Germans got what they deserved from the Russians. This is not new news. Of course FDR and Churchill covered it up. Soviet troops kill 8 out of every 10 Nazi troops killed in WW2.
This is a sad but true statement of how the US government has in the past covered up things they do not want the public to know.
The only purpose was to serve a few in power at the time for political reasons.
This trait of our leaders is to say that they know better than the US public.
This policy is still alive and well in Washington today.
The US football player who died int Afghanistan Pat Tillman. Who's death was covered up instead of telling the public it was from friendly fire.
To the Current situation we find our self's in. The lies of why Job's are not growing in the US it is because the Current Government both DEM' and REP' would rather LIE, Distract the US public rather than PI$$ off the Corporations and CHINA.
That goes for Bill Clinton, OBAMA, ROMNEY, RYAN and all the other names in our current capitol.
But do not feel alone this is also happening in the EU.
Read the book, "The Zookeeper's Wife" for a real-life look at the lives of Jews and Poles during WWII. Poland was the killing fields for both the Germans and the Russians. The brutality was horrific.
@Devils son - not true, German troops were not raping Russian women or killing civilians on sight. And the treatment of Russian POW's was initially quite good - actually, a good number of them joined the German side either as auxiliary military force or civilian labor. But the horrific treatment of German POW's by the Russians changed that (all captured SS personnel was shot on sight and all Wehrmacht soldiers were sent to hard labor camps where most of them died - also against the Geneva convention). So yes, Russian POW's were not treated by Germans in accordance with Geneva convention, but their lot and survival rate was still far better than that of German POW's in Russia. These are cold hard facts.
What the Russian people under Stalin did to the Polish people must never be forgoten or forgiven. However, this incident is hardly news. I first learned of it in grade school in the early 50's. I can remember learning about this & many more of the atrocities committed by the Russian people & their armies during WWII, both in school & at home. It was no secret then, & i remember talking about it in classes in high school. Is it that this is simply no longer taught in our schools, forgotten in the rush? I would hope not. But then again sometimes the news is just supposed to remind us.
@Viet Nam era Vet - First off thank you for your services to our Country, I for one appreciate everything you and your brothers in arms have done/do for this Nation.
Do you have kids/grandchildren? You would be amazed at what they don't teach in school these days. Especially history. I learned this in school also, mid 70's. I have 3 children, all in the public school system, 4th, 8th and 11th. I find the curriculum a joke and that is being very nice about it. IMO the "No Child Left Behind Act of 2001" was probably G.W. Bush's biggest failure.
Max^108 has the right of it.
and one other point to make - the German MILITARY invaded Russia.
when the tides turned, and the eastern front collapsed, the Russians made no attempt to distinguish between civilian and military - all were raped and murdered. No mention is ever made of the honorable stands made by German generals to attempt to save their civilian population from the Russian Horde, whom were raping and pillaging anything they came across in their drive towards Berlin. these German generals, many of which were NOT party members and some who didn't even know about the actions of the SS, are lumped in with the Nazis and others as "deserving" of their plight...
WWII history, particularly the eastern front and relationship between Germany and Russia, is extremely complex. Many Russians did initially join the Germans because they were desperate to get away from Stalin; some of those Russians were Bolsheviks who realized things weren't turning out how they thought they would. but others were remnants of the White Army (supporters of Tsar Nicholas) who were desperate to restore Russia to the power structure it enjoyed through much of the 17th-20th century.
so please people, do some reading before spouting off your cliched WWII lines you learned in grade school from the textbooks. after all, History is written by the Victors.
Wow, looks like we have a couple of Nazi apologists here. Research the SS Einsatzgruppen units. They followed behind the combat units of the German military and were exclusively dedicated to exterminating Russian civilians, mostly Jews but others as well. These exterminations were fastidiously documented by the Germans themselves, and videos exist as well. Actions like this quickly squelched any good-will the Russian populace initially held for the Germans.
Of course, one wrong does not excuse the other. The horrific atrocities of the the Soviets cannot be denied, but hopefully this illustrates that savagery was practiced by both sides on the Eastern front.
@McGee-9to5: first of all, you can go straight to hell for trying to label me as a "nazi apologist". Nowhere in the narrow subject matter I was addressing (Eastern Front and Russian/German relations) did I come REMOTELY close to making any point that mitigates how bad the NAZIS were.
but jerks like you love to lump all German peoples (military, civilians, etc.) into the bag labeled "Nazis", and you attempt to justify your ignorance of history by the fact that "they all deserved it". That is patently wrong; the Nazi leadership and those in the party deserved it. The German civilians did not. and many German military WERE NOT NAZIS.
so you find some records about SS Einsatzgruppen units and think that proves something; what does it prove? that the SS were following behind the German military and mistreating Russians? WOW, ya think? Yes, you will find cases off gross violations of Geneva on ANY SIDE (even allied) in the war; cherry picking one case to somehow frame an argument that the Germans treated their Russian POWs worse then the Russians treated their German POWs is a disingenuous argument.
Yes, Germans didn't treat Russian POWs well; that was their mistake because it made it easier for Stalin to rally the people he had been mistreating and slaughtering (his own people) to his side to stop the Germans at Stalingrad. But that has nothing to do with the main argument here: that history has chosen to neglect and refused to acknowledge what many of us knew all along, that the Russians committed equal to or worse atrocities against the Germans when the eastern front collapsed.
Sertorious, than you for a wonderfully informed and appropriate post ... it is truly amazing how much perspective one may gain on current events from reading a bit of history ... and as economics is simply a specific discipline of politics ... we should like to add one small line .. appropriate as all of this happened in a world kneeling before the altar of Keynesian Economics ... (it still is)
“For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to every one that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still.”
[John Maynard Keynes]
I don't mind being called names by people who are ignorant of the true historical facts I'm bringing up. You have to study history from all sort of sources, not just the propaganda books of the victors. To me, war crime is a war crime, regardless of who has done it. In my book British general "Bomber" Harris is a war criminal just as guilty as Herman Goering. Actually, Harris is responsible for a lot more innocent civilian deaths that Goering.
I apologize and retract my "Nazi apologist" comment. Instead let us substitute "German apologist." This was primarily directed at Max for making the argument (with which Scott concurred) that the atrocities of the Germans were simply a reaction to Russian savagery:
Here's some more of my "ignorance" to counter Max's "cold hard facts":
- The highest death estimate by the Germans themselves of German POWs in Soviet captivity is 1.4 million out of approximately 3 million total captured, or about 47%. Mind you, this assumes that all Germans listed as "missing" died as POWs. Compare this to the 3.3 million Soviet POWs, or about 57%, who died in German captivity.
- Concerning the Einsatzgruppen, I'm sorry that Scott regards the systematic slaughter of over a million Russian civilians to be "cherry picking one case." Regardless, the fact that organized extermination units existed on the Eastern front, with the knowledge and approval of the German high command, refutes Max's assertion that "German troops... were not killing civilians on sight." In contrast, Soviet atrocities against German civilians took place despite orders to the contrary of their high command, whom were concerned that such acts would hurt their ultimate goal of spreading socialism to the rest of Europe. Although I concede that Soviet propaganda calling for "punishment" of the Germans did little to help the generals control their men.
- Finally, apparently my statement that "one wrong does not excuse the other [and] the horrific atrocities of the the Soviets cannot be denied" was not clear enough. Maybe this will be clear enough: I do not deny that there were honorable Germans during WWII, both within and outside the organized Nazi party. Neither did German combatants or non-combatants "deserve" death for the crimes committed by others.
At least we can all agree that "war crime is a war crime, regardless of who has done it."
Here is another fact: Of the almost 100,000 Germans captured following the Battle of Stalingrad, only 5,000 survived the war. That is 5%! This survival ratio was typical for most of the war. It changed at the end of the war, when Russians picked up an enormous number of German POW's, later needed to rebuild East Germany as Russia's satellite.
As to the general treatment of POW's in the last 2 years of war (1944-1945). The Allied carpet bombings of German cities and infrastructure lead to starvation and death from disease of not only Russian POWs but German civilians as well.
I can definitely believe that figure. From all accounts Stalingrad was vicious even for WWII and I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like for the common soldier.
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend the 1993 German film Stalingrad for a "non-Hollywood" depiction of the the battle and aftermath from the perspective of the Axis:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108211/
Thanks for the link McGee, I know that movie and know quite a bit about Stalingrad battle from accounts on both sides. I lived in Germany for a while and talked to a number of veterans of the Eastern Front. War is real hell and that is why I vehemently oppose wars, especially those waged by my own country. I served in Europe right after Vietnam and I am eternally grateful for not taking a part in the war. Wars are always made by the politicians, not common men.
Scott, there is one thing you forgot or neglected to mention above. You were quick to state how the Germans invaded Russia, which is a undeniable fact. What you did not mention or forgot is that Germany and Russia were allies prior to Germany's invasion and that while Germany attacked Poland from their border, the Russians invaded Poland from their end and carved up the country between them. If you wish to tell others to do some reading before commenting, you might want to follow your own advice. No offense meant, just a suggestion.
The tragedy of the Katyn Forrest massacre needs to be brougt out into the open and appropriate governmental responsibility assigned. Sadly, the great majority of the participants are now deceased. That in no way lessens the tragedy for the families of those poor souls who died there but some small amount ot of justice can be served if admissions and apologies by the governments involved are made. In this way maybe the dead can rest easier and their surviving relatives might get some closure. Just some food for thought.
Disgusting. And this nonsense still goes on. A few years ago in Isreal, a meeting was held to commerate the Holocoust and many diplomats from the west atteneded. In one of the speeches, it was said (paraphras): "We will never let this happen again.." Yeah. Bosnia. Look next door in Syria. Dafur. C'mon. It's all about vested interests and good relations. Nobody is doing anything about what is going on right now.
Bill, Israel has never claimed to be able to prevent atrocities all over the world. They can hope only to protect themselves. And I doubt very much that the Syrian rebels would welcome their assistance.
Im and 50 years old... my grandmother immigrated here when my mother was 7 years old from Poland. That was 1941.
My grandmother never spoke of this time...out of fear.
Really, and what was the US Government supposed to do? Protest to the Soviets? Refuse to allow them to help us defeat Nazi Germany? Stage a protest march to the Soviet embassy? Wring our hands and whine a lot? After the war we didn't forget and forgive, we engaged in a global conflict with the Soviets that went on for decades and cost billions of dollars (and was used as justification for the Vietnam War).
This is an interesting historical account that sheds more light on what a crud Stalin was, but to use it as an example of how our government lies to us all the time is just silly.
EdB, your point is well taken. However, this is also an example of how difficult it is to govern with transparency and, with hindsight, we may see the ramifications of "lesser of two evils" cover ups. Had the U.S. and Britain been open about their intelligence on this massacre, perhaps the world at large would have had a better understanding of Stalin's vicious methods. Had Roosevelt and Churchill not allowed Stalin's blackmail (cover this up or I'll re-align with Hitler), they may have had an even stronger vantage from which to negotiate post-war (and not given away so much). And, had the U.S. and U.K. stood on higher moral ground here, we may have had better precedents later when successive administrations in the U.S. were tempted to whitewash the actions of other dictators (Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, both of whom we helped to put in power, e.g.).
It even happens in The Occupied Territories: all for 'a little more breathing space.' Humanity is indeed mass hypocrisy.
Patton was right about how the soviets should have been handled.
I'm glad that when we invade and bomb nations, it's to BRING DEMOCRACY!
When Russia does it, it's just to be jerks.
"I'm so glad that when we invade and bomb nations, it's to BRING DEMOCRACY! When Russia does it, it's just to be jerks."
Absolutely the most idiotic comment posted on this article so far! The US attacks nations expressly or covertly for profit that is favorable to its own interests and will implant any political regime it deems fit to carry out its agenda. Was the Diem regime in Vietnam a democracy? No. Was the Pinochet regime a democracy? No. Was the Shah in Iran a democracy? No. Is the Saudi royal family a democracy? No. Was the Batista regime in Cuba a democracy? No. Need I continue?
What about Mexico's Santa Ana and the Mexican Army murdering American immigrants in Texas of 1836?
I don't hear Mexico apologizing for these attrocities committed against AMERICANS.
in 1836, those texans were an independent nation! they were NOT in US territory. it was mexico trying to put down a newly formed independent texas. still it was a bad thing. remember the alamo!!
Mexico forced those American immigrants to fight for independence. A decade before, Mexico INVITED those American immigrants to Texas and the American immigrants could care less about making Texas independent of Mexico then.
Mexico forced the Americans to fight for independence? Now that's some revisionist history.
The American immigrants, many of whom had arrived from the adjacent states of the American South, refused the give up their slaves despite the fact that slavery was illegal in Mexico. That was one of the reasons for their rebellion.
sertorius - lol. clearly you dont know sarcasm when you see it!
but you were spot on, nice work my friend!
This was but one example of how Russia / USSR / Communisim works behind the scenes in an effort to take control of other countries. Russia did the same thing when they invaded Afganistan. They killed the existing tribal elders, doctors, political leaders in an effort to destabilize then attempt to control in the resultant power vacuum.
In Vietnam polictical leaders and village headmen were regularly "eliminated" for more favorable communist replacements.
Same story. Katyn has been known for a long time among the Polish people. What would the country of Poland be now if its teachers, doctors, lawyers, and professional had not been executed?
JRPPOL,
"Katyn has been known for a long time among the Polish people."
It has also been known for a long time among neo-Nazis. I have seen references to the massacres at Katyn in neo-Nazi literature blaming it on the Soviets, but of course I never believed it because that literature was, after all, produced by neo-Nazis and therefore could not be trusted. I thought it was just an attempt to defend the Nazis against the accusation that they had committed this massacre. So I thought.
And you were right.
Just because the story is true does not mean that it can not be used to advance the neo-nazi cause.
Eli100,
"Just because the story is true does not mean that it can not be used to advance the neo-nazi cause."
That's true, Eli, and all the more so, I guess. They can now say, "See! The Nazis weren't bad guys. They didn't do this just as they didn't do the holocaust, either".
one of many things they do not let us know!i have no trust of faith in the super rich,cause that who run my great country!!in my eye's all they do tell us is all lies!!look at the lost money we dump into other countrys!!if u owe I.R.S 100,000 they come kick your ass for that money!tons of money ends up missing.and all they do is say we don't know where it went?all i know is when its time for me collect social security.they best have my money!i feel for the rest of nations have kiss our feet!rember this when you see sumthing our goverment done that pissed you off.WE THE PEOPLE DID NOT VOTE ON IT!AND MOST OF THE TIME WE NEVER KNEW ABOUT IT!!sure we get 2 vote for our leader,but it is other votes that put them in power!it is like a tie breaker.the way i see it the rich get first crack at it!when they cant see eye 2 eye.then WE THE PEOPLE get our say!!its all BS!!
yes, we the people did vote on it. we chose our leaders, our representatives, and they make the decisions. we are a consitutional federal republic, a representative democracy. we are not an open democracy where each and every citizens vote is counted on every single issue. at the national level, we choose 535 in congress and 1 president to make these decisions, out of a population of 330 million.
My mother, recently deceased, spoke of this. I believe my Grandfather was one of the intellectuals that the Soviets murdered. Very sad!!
There is absolutely NOTHING that justifies actions like this!
Makes one ashamed when this kind of silent approval takes place by present or past leaders of the country in which you live.
Political and military expediency can justify just about anything by any power no matter how atrocious or barbaric the act.
Think about it, had the US and UK stood up to the Soviets, then the Soviets might have been a more powerful ally to Nazi Germany. Had this happened we would probably be speaking German right now.
It was horrible.... but we also need to place ourselves in the shoes of others before we judge. We too often like to judge from OUR time when we feel safe and are in a different world.
I suspect it WAS the lesser of two evils with no third option allowed or there are facts that would've made you take a different choice but it was not known to you at the time. You're lucky if you've never been in that situation in your life. We were faced with national defeat and the loss of our our country. We had been caught with our pants down. There was no love for the USSR and Stalin. If I remember my history, there was active debate about allowing Germany and the USSR to fight it out and hopefully destroy each other so we'd be rid of the both of them.... but there was fear that the USSR would lose and we NEEDED an eastern front so we could open a western front. Without that we may have lost.
Then after the war, the cold war started and went on for almost half a century and there were already situations where we almost went to nuclear war. Besides feeling 'in the right' what positive purpose would come out of making it a banner issue? Would starting a war that would leave millions dead do anything to bring those poor Polish victims back?
History is full of "Sophie's Choice" moments and to sit back in your warm safe home and decide what you would do if you were there is a fool's exercise. You really don't know until you are there. The dropping of the atomic bomb is another such example you hear people judging about now.
As having Polish blood run in my family, I am deeply saddened by the continued denial of responsibility of all involved in this massacre, despite the evidence. With those with high Polish intelligence, the war probably would of been positively won without much Soviet interaction. I have lost more respect for the US gov't., and also Russia. War always rears an ugly side.
"With those with high Polish intelligence, the war probably would of been positively won without much Soviet interaction."
The Polish airforce consisted of WWI bi-planes trying to outmaneuver and outgun state of the art Messerschmidt fighter aircraft while the Polish army tried to fight off full panzer divisions with futile cavalry charges on flat terrain. The Polish army was obliterated by the German army in less than 30 days and its government was forced to capitulate. Somehow I think you need to review your understanding of both history and military science!
Sertorious, Poland produced their own modern tanks and modern planes (such as the PZL P7a) before Germany invaded. The myth about cavalry charges and biplanes has been thoroughly debunked. It's origins trace directly from German Nazi propaganda. Second, Poland's airforce was decimated by the blitzkreig and never had the opportunity to launch, despite this they destroyed 120+ German planes.
Finally, over 8,000 Polish pilots were evacuated to England and recruited to fly Allied planes where they inflicted serious damage against the German Luftwaffe. Polish pilots were extremely well regarded, trained on modern Polish planes.
Please stop spreading Mein Kampf era propaganda.
8,000 Polish pilots? 8,000? I'd like to see a credible source for this number.
And American pilots gave up their American citizenship to fight Germany before the US entered the war.
Here's some reading material for educational purposes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-British_personnel_in_the_RAF_during_the_Battle_of_Britain#Polish_contribution
Don't forget who broke the "enigma" code.
Sertorious, Poland produced their own modern tanks and modern planes (such as the PZL P7a) before Germany invaded. The myth about cavalry charges and biplanes has been thoroughly debunked. It's origins trace directly from German Nazi propaganda. Second, Poland's airforce was decimated by the blitzkreig and never had the opportunity to launch, despite this they destroyed 120+ German planes.
Finally, over 8,000 Polish pilots were evacuated to England and recruited to fly Allied planes where they inflicted serious damage against the German Luftwaffe. Polish pilots were extremely well regarded, trained on modern Polish planes.
Please stop spreading Mein Kampf era propaganda.
#7.2 - Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:42 PM EDT
The weaponry Poland produced was second rate even though Germany's wasn't terribly advanced early in the war either. Poland's tactics, just like France's and England's, were also antiquated such as dispersing armor with mass infantry as opposed to using mass armored formations for spearhead attacks. Poland only had 140 modern tanks (2 brigades) and 660 obsolete tanks to bring to the field while all of Germany's 2,750 panzers were fully modernized tanks (ie, full 360 degree turrets, fast motors, and radio communications.) In terms of aircraft, Poland did have some good aircraft but very few and no more than 400 in total compared to the Lufwaffe which had 2,315 combat aircraft in that campaign. The loss of 120 aircraft is therefore not terribly great under the circumstances. Poland, as with France and England, was simply not prepared for defending against a blitzkrieg and did not properly anticipate the speed and ferocity with which Germany would launch its campaign. A good part of its infantry divisions didn't even have the chance of being fully mobilized to the front and many were decimated while getting there by repeated air attacks. In the end, regardless of what great pilots they may have had or how bravely they fought, the Poles were defeated in 35 days on October 6, 1939.
Poland in 35 days without even having had the opportunity of fully mobilizing all its divisions into active combat. Their defeat was simply catastrophic.
Free Poles fought very bravely ( In the Air, Sea and on the Ground ) for the same Allied Gov's that threw them under the bus to appease Stalin. Those that chose to return to Poland after the war were Persecuted by the Russians and Communist Puppet Government.
And to this day, all the 'civilized' powers whine and complain about 'humanitarion rights' that other countries dont follow. How sad, the US right now isnt any better than any other country in that sense, and we are usually the ones that are complaining to everyone else. Clean up your own backyard before you complain about someone elses, and no, we the normal working people dont get to see what goes on, we are thought of here in the US like mushrooms...keep them in the dark and shovel lots of crap on them and they'll be fine.
And what other country do the people of the world run to when they need help?
READ THIS AND LEARN:
Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces Abroad, 1798 - 2004
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/forces.htm
And the point of your statement is what exactly? Let me guess, I can already hear a US Marine Corps marching band stomping its way right out of your ass which is where your mouth seems to be.
Where would people go for help? Your house? HA!
Politics makes strange bed fellows. The US went to Soviets for help against the Nazis and then to the fascists to fight the Soviets after the war. Saddam was a good friend for a while when the oil was good and the US didn't seem to care much about the Kurds then when they were helping Komeini and Iran. Now they're our friends again. Aww! But it's all for 'democracy' right?
Of course the truth is never convenient to gov'ts. From this to any of the various other cover ups and conspiracies (like the one that happened 11 years ago today), the truth is what all gov'ts fear as they're corrupt organizations that only seek to gain more influence/power/money.
I would never promote war, because it is is ugly, but since the beginning of time, wars have been won by whoever kills the most people. To try and put rules on war like it is a football game is just plain stupid and in the end promotes even more violence.
"[S]ince the beginning of time, wars have been won by whoever kills the most people."
That is untrue and a false conclusion as to military principles. Asymmetric attrition is one way of conducting war and is not always the best way: it all depends on the objectives of the war because, as Clausewitz correctly postulated, "War is merely the extension of state interests by other means' in which the objective is merely to force the enemy to do your will and cease resisting. If this can be done simply by the destruction of infrastructure with minimal casualties for example, and your opponent has conceded what you want from him, then the objectives have been achieved war has been won. No more, no less. It is usually only in scenarios of total war where there is no quarter that you have attrition. McNamarra approached Vietnam as a war of attrition. Over 50,000 Americans were killed for 1.5 Million North Vietnamese which is a great kill ration: nevertheless the US still lost the ultimate objective of the Vietnam War which was to preserve a free South Vietnam.
Very well stated.
"Compared to war, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance."
Gen. George Patton
"Anyone who says they'd die for their country is an imbecil! You make the other poor bastard die for his country instead!" Patton.
"All REAL Americans love the sting of battle!".............Gen. George Patton
"That's why Americans has never lost and will never lose a war." Gen George Patton.
Note: Patton's great grandfather was killed at the Battle of Gettysburg fighting for the South and those Americans sure lost a war.
We needed Wiki-leaks back then !!!!!!! Support Wiki-leaks today.
Why? It doesn't change anything when all is said and done.
"Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it". I paraphrase but the lessons are there. Makes it a little bit harder for others to pull off.
Necessity is the mother of invention and those who wage war are fully determined to win it as long as the benefits outweigh the costs.
During the Vietnam War, the Pentagon had a sign in one of rooms saying:
"War is our business and business is good."
As has been pointed out before, Stalins' Soviet policy in regards to taking over in any country was always the same. Stalin set the policy in his own country when he assumed control in Russia. A 7.62 Nagant round to the back of the head from the majority of the corpses pointed out who did what to whom. Now what is the world at large to do about it? Poland has every right to be outraged, unfortunately, other than to make it an extremely low point in history is really about all that can be done at this time.
The govenment that discovered the attrocity was in the midst of doing much the same thing as they rolled east across the continent. Getting to point the finger at their then current enemy was politically convenient even if it was the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak. The governments involved are no more, the facts have long been established, so other than bringing up a regretable point in history what are we to learn from beating this long dead horse?
This is what happened when communist lover Roosevelt and the rest of the communist he put in government ran the government. Also those that started comminism who where in charge of our banking system also ran us into two wars.
This cover-up was ordered by that same FDR who refused to let a boatload of Jews fleeing Hitler's Holocaust to dock in the United States. All 900 of them ended up back in Germany and died in concentration camps. This is that same FDR who agreed (at Yalta) to carve up Europe after the war and cede half of it to the Soviet Union. And many people today think he was just a ducky president.
The Allies didn't fight WWII to save Jews from genocide and so perhaps that would answer why none of them did anything to really help them. Actually, England and the US were afraid that the admission of hordes of Jewish refugees at the time would simply give further rise to the rampant anti-semitism already prevailing in their respect countries and undermine morale in supporting the war which was inevitable. Many disenfranchized peoples blamed Jews (wrongfully) for the Depression and anti-semitism was just as rampant everywhere in Europe as in Germany. The main difference in Germany is that the economic conditions were much worse and the Nazi regime was absolutely ruthless in carrying out its agenda.
And the Union Army didn't fight the American Civil War to "free the slaves"!
Correct. The US Civil War was fought primarily to readjust the economic imbalanced imposed on the industries of the North by the less deveoped and obsolete agrarian economies of the South as well as political inequalities presented by the South which had less citizens than the North but cheated into gaining superior political leverage by counting a percentage of slaves as a populace to get representation in Congress. Furthermore, the South acquired tremendous wealth from cotton production but did not pay their fare share in trade tariffs which The North had to bare. Also, the North preferred to manufacture finished cotton products with their own mills rather than having raw cotton exported to Europe but was prevented from doing so because of the South's unfair political and economic advantages explained above. The cry of slavery Abolitionists were useful in promoting the propaganda and as cannon fodder to the Union army as most other people had to be conscripted and many ended up deserting the Union army: actually, there were many African Americans who preferred to stay and fight for The Confederacy rather than join The Union. There was also a conflict with railroads as the more advanced railroad barrons of the North could not expand South as Confederate states used a different gauge for tracks to prevent them form overtaking the railroad industry in The South centered in Chatanooga.
This information doesn't do us a lot of good now. This is an example of two things: Number one, how are supposed open democracy isn't now, and never has been open. And secondly, how the "Freedom of Information Act" must stop allowing the government to hide behind "National Security" and start letting the American people in on what they are doing. People in the government hide stuff about themselves (especially presidents) and the country for national security. President Bush and VP Cheney used this more than any presidency in our history. Our founding fathers warned us about government secrecy over two hundred years ago. Many have said it would contribute to our collapse.
Wow people, maybe you need to re-take American history if you think this is something only other countries do. Maybe you missed the part about Native Americans; maybe you missed the part about the Mexican American War. Before we call this a "communist" thing, maybe people should study history. This is not just a "communist" thing, this is a human thing.
Wow, some of these comments are so ignorant it's scary. This is exactly why the U.S. is in the state it's in: A general population that is ignorant and downright stupid at times. Man, intellectualism may be truly dead in this country.
It's not only dead, it had been dead and burried for quite some time. I think the headstone reads 'American Intellectuallism 1776-1960. Killed by Pacifism and Hippies. RIP.'
Well, there are definitely people trying to kill it.
Haha, this is nothing...wait until todays events are declassified 50 years from now, we will learn the real stories behind Vietnam, the Gulf War(s) to come, Israel, the middle east, 9/11, Spying within the US on US citizens, Assassination plots, Thievery, Corruption, etc, etc, future generations are going to have a blast on how we survived and lived through it and had no inkling of what was going on behind the scenes.
And we're supposed to trust our government and those that run it? The Bush's did some very horrific things to people also!
Just like corporations, there are times when Governments cease to be human and behave like powerful robots who only seek to win...that is all they can compute. This past should help us all remember that the rules are still the same generations later...70 years later our children and grandchildren will probably learn the truth about the wars America is waging now...Wonder what the americans from those days will say about this truth...So much for "give us your poor, your tired your huddles masses"...they didnt make it to the US shores because they ended up dead in mass graves...
...In 1942 American officers and enlisted escaped from the Philippines... after having survived the death march and a prison camp... They promised their fellows that if they made it, they would tell the truth about what had happened. When they made it to the U.S. they were threatened with prison if they told anybody anything...
...Seems that after Pearl Harbor the American people would not have agreed to going to war against Nazi Germany except that Hitler was stupid enough to declare war. The administration itself, and the British did not want anything to upset the Europe First strategy... The former POWs were told that if they said anything that it would "...only make things worse..." for the prisoners... (Same logic used re POWs in Vietnam...)
...By 1944 it became obvious that the story was going to break somewhere, so suddenly the government trotted out the surviving former POWs and ran them on bond tours.
...I am opposed to people violating national security... but how many things have been classified for the convenience of the government... and kept classified... For those interested, you might google "Slapton Sands"
Why is it no one talks about the execution of German Military at the trenches by the Russians???? Why is it no one talks about the German war prisoners, that the most returned home except from Russia. Remember the iron curtin were the Russians kept families from seeing each other.The rest of the world did nothing to free them,WHY ????
One very simple reason: history is written by the winner and, as Napoleon said, "History is an agreed upon lie!" From the battle of Stalingrad alone, of the 91,000 German POWs taken, 27,000 died within weeks of their surrender and only 5-6,000 returned to Germany by 1955. The remainder of the POWs died in Soviet captivity either from executions or privations.
The vast majority of those 6000 were German officers, the Russians actually treated officers better as they considered them " More usefull " for re-education and they weren't released till the mid 1950's.
Nice reporting. I read an article about this in Reader's Digest like 30 years ago. And it has been all over the History Channel.
NEXT!
Give it another 50 years and we'll know what happened on 9/11
No need to wait that long. It is quite evident what happened just by reviewing the wonderful plans the CIA and Pentagon had drafted for starting a war with Cuba in 1960 which JFK rejected when it was brought to his desk:
This CIA plan was proposed by The CIA and the Joint Chiefs of Staff to JFK as a backup plan for Cuba. He rejected it. This is an official National Archive that has been declassified and is available under The Freedom of Information Act. It is fact--it is not a conspiracy theory:
In response to a request for pretexts for military intervention by the Chief of Operations of the Cuba Project, Brig. Gen. Edward Lansdale, the document listed methods, and outlined plans, that the authors believed would garner public and international support for U.S. military intervention in Cuba. According to Jacob Hornberger:
“
The plan called for U.S. personnel to disguise themselves as agents of the Cuban government and to engage in terrorist attacks on the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay. It also called for terrorist attacks within the United States that would be conducted by pro-U.S. forces disguising themselves as Cuban agents.
One of the most fascinating aspects of Operation Northwoods involved the proposed hijacking of an American passenger plane. The JCS proposed that a real plane containing American passengers would be hijacked by friendly forces disguised as Cuban agents. The plane would drop down off the radar screen and be replaced by a pilotless aircraft, which would crash, purportedly killing all the passengers. Under the plan, the real passenger plane would be secretly flown back to the United States.[14]
”
More specifically, the plan called for the following:
a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronological order):
b. United States would respond by executing offensive operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base.
c. Commence large scale United States military operations.
a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.
b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.
The terror campaign could be pointed at refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.
6. A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation (in the vein of the 14 June invasion of the Dominican Republic). We know that Castro is backing subversive efforts clandestinely against Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, and Nicaragua at present and possible others. These efforts can be magnified and additional ones contrived for exposure. For example, advantage can be taken of the sensitivity of the Dominican Air Force to intrusions within their national air space. "Cuban" B-26 or C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night. Soviet Bloc incendiaries could be found. This could be coupled with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground in the Dominican Republic and "Cuban" shipments of arm which would be found, or intercepted, on the beach.
7. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months.[17]
2. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.
a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.
b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio[18] stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.
3. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.
a. Approximately 4 or 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent Intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.
b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.
c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down, a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.[19]
James Bamford wrote on Northwoods:
“
Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.[20]
”
“
”
The full document can be retrieved at
you're a History buff Sertorius. So if History repeats itself what do you see coming in your crystal ball?
by the way Poland was conquered by Germany in 35 days as you mentioned somewhere. I remember hearing that they sent cavalry units against German troops? did you hear that too? It still is better than France being blitzkriegened in 3 weeks though, I know the French where resolute to be pacifists for that one. Pacifism obviously doesn't scare enemy troops away.
What's so clear to me is that the kind of mentality that would lie and cover-up atrocities for strategic/political gain, is the same mind-set of the global power-brokers of today!!
Roosevelt, Churchill et al, were not the "great leaders" as they've been touted - Men such as these, represent corrupt leadership, and moral-cowards in the face of truth!! Nothing should "trump" the value of a human life - Absolutely nothing!!!!!!
Human life is subject to the same principles of macro-economics as any other commodity or good. The more abundant a good, the cheaper it becomes. There are now almost 8 billion people on this planet placing ever greater demands on resources and human procreation is an exponential function. Human life is becoming cheaper by the minute.
Right on Sertorius. mostly when the 8 billions are trying to get more things instead of being happy, which results in our society as 10's of millions of people are on food stamps ???!!!